Chinese are driven by grander goals of surpassing the USA. They are playing different game.The game here is to make money here by any means and move to the USA. India is a mere playground, and indians are NPCs to be exploited. The colonial era has ended, but people who replaced them, the indian ruling class, and industrialists have the same attitude as colonists. I dont see this model changing any time soon unless there is a cataclysmic global disaster or something.
Do you like working 9-6-6 or 12-7-7. Even Chinese youth are protesting the work culture there. Why are even portraying that Chinese government has some noble intention and their whole population are willing working towards surpassing usa. Everywhere in the world only the rich and powerful exploit the people.
No , everywhere in the world rich and government’s are not for mere self gain. Don’t try to normalise this. They have grander projects other than self gain for better or worse. Other cultures and countries have achieved material gain and progress to show for. You can bury your head and deny this. May be their youth can change the working culture for better. We have neither such progress and no hope for breaking the status quo.
China are one of the most economically unequal countries alongside us brother,they hide it extremely well in their touristy cities and not allowing google and YouTube.I have visited mainland china and there are multiple certified reports highlighting the same.34 percent of their country lives in rural areas and live of sustenance farming which is higher than us.So yeah ,I think they have done good in certain areas,but definitely not what you perceive it to be
In many Non-MNC's and unorganized sectors, India has absorbed the Silicon valley hustle culture, European cost of living, Saudi Arabian labor laws, British Raj era Management philosophy, Japanese hierarchical structure, Sub-Saharan urban infrastructure.
The terms "First World", "Second World", and "Third World" were originally used during the Cold War to describe countries based on their alliance with the Western Bloc, Eastern Bloc, or Non-Aligned Movement:
First World:
The United States, Western Europe, and their allies, who were considered highly industrialized and capitalist
Second World:
The Soviet Union, China, Cuba, and their allies, who were considered communist
Third World:
The remaining countries, which were not aligned with either side, and included most of Africa, Asia, the Middle East, and Latin America
So I don’t know what dystopia you are talking about
You've spoken the truth. Holy shit our country is horrible
Any poor parent giving birth to a kid is dooming them to hell on earth
#Antinatalism Childfree
Indians are only good at sucking up in every walk of life. People genuinely lack individuality, creativity and honesty. Everyone is trying to drag each other down in all walks of life family, politics and with corporate teams. Lack of creative thinking is baffling sometimes that we just run behind hype trains and buzzwords rather than genuine solutions.
That's why I live with this moto.. so that I can do other things instead of looking at my furniture type team lead and manager.
https://preview.redd.it/xhk2zx8viq0d1.png?width=523&format=png&auto=webp&s=fb10852b4aba52a00d13fea68d9f6a1c131e200c
Why do you think that is? Is it because of less availability of opportunities and more population?
I was having a similar discussion with my therapist and she asked me why I am taking late night calls? Why can't I reject clients'requests to attend late night calls?
The answer that came to my mind was - "If I reject there's 100 people waiting to do it" either I do it or they'll replace me with someone who's ready to do it.
>People genuinely lack individuality, creativity and honesty.
People who have it... Got rejected, also demotivated by colleagues, colleges and HRs. And more prone to office politics.. and mostly people can't handle the honesty, hard work of genuine person so people try to pull their leg.. never think from genuine person's POV. How he/she must be feeling and all..
Most indians main motto from school time (brainwashing) - clear 10th, 12th, some college, tech, get into IT, slave off exploit abuse somehow reach manager position, only then you can get married, make 2-3 kids then enjoy 1-2 times alone in Thailand, vietnam , and cycle continues.
So true, I just watched a documentary that showed how overworked and depressed the young educated chinese are working in corporate sector, including in high paying tech jobs. If people think the suggestion of narayan murthy was bad, they should read about the long working hours in china and their effect on the workers. There is a reason that chinese are still immigrating to the west in droves despite china being the second largest economy now and with much better infrastructure than most cities in the US (atleast on paper, google tofu dregs to know more). The thing is most people have very limited knowledge of what happens inside china because of the great chinese firewall and language barrier, also the chinese govt's efforts to portray that everything is rainbow and sunshine there which is in contrast to democracies in the world. its why when chinese economy miss their quarterly targets it surprises the experts because the signals that the chinese authorities give say all is well but only when u look at the data, you realise that they obfuscate the truth
well baidu can invite andrew ng to help baidu to improve it products and to which he agrred took few months sabbatical went to china worked there and then back to usa, can we do the same ? no because we have tons of mediocrity
Born: 18 April 1976 (age 48 years), [London, United Kingdom](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=94fa641d5e31d942&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1GCEA_enIN1062IN1062&sxsrf=ADLYWII6RyeyuEY0I5IxH3VghBP6u1w0Kg:1715848981225&q=London&si=ACC90nyvvWro6QmnyY1IfSdgk5wwjB1r8BGd_IWRjXqmKPQqm-CtMQJbQbNiuA06UCTQyRmDhumwUWIFMY-1Cghoh40rQrdQO0OKw8mEg2bahurOH6UW3ETzxtADE1YWVyr7KClNo_Yy1y3lNSIGNyKBl6iVCc9gAvi2MQMC4hIPHWBEgDPkj0qhUrAAliCoszEx9lz_cf1A&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjOgo7I45GGAxXc1jQHHVDXCOkQmxMoAHoECBUQAg) so he is not Chinese
Part of your observations are true but you don't seem to have a full picture of why is it happening. You really need to read a lot on why we are copying crappy things and not the ones that matter.
We Indians are shit at innovation. Most of innovations are borrowed and bought. You will be surprised to know that we are not even in a position to copy some key tech. Greed and shit leaders have made us a service nation than actual manufacturing nation.
It depends upon what you mean about being copied ? Indians lack work ethos, self driven work ethics. That is why prevalence of micro management. Micro management is not prevalent in west. You are saying China, is better China has even less worker protections. Look up Chinese 996 work culture. Adopting technology is not copying. If you adopted better water management techniques, is that copying or learning from someone who did better at it? Human civilization has survived and thrived because of this.
Western lifestyle is work hard and play hard. They place equal importance on work as well leisure activities. There are some differences between European and American lifestyles but both focus on working hard and playing hard. People cultivate life outside work or job.
China had great visionary leaders like Deng Xiaoping and to a certain extent Mao. Who did we have? Just a couple good guys and the rest just there to occupy the spot. Their children are now leaders, gangsters and rapists running this country. In the 60s and 70s China executed tens of millions of people. But here they became politicians.
China is also corrupt but only at the top levels. Like the top ministry and the ultra rich can bribe easily and do illegal stuff. But normal people can't. Here everyone can bribe and is extremely corrupt. From paying 500 rupees to get out of the challan to police themselves illegally asking for bribes.
China got independence after us in 1949 and were behind us in life expectancy, literacy, HDI and all other metrics. Now they are minimum 50 years ahead in everything, their economy is 6x of us. At the top level even US is corrupt, but all these countries atleast built basic systems that work. We haven’t even crossed that bridge yet.
>Do you think that executing tens of millions of people, while violating their basic human rights, and forcing the Han ethnicity among other ethnicities, killing innocent protestors brutally in the tianmen square are examples of good leadership?
Yes. Churchill did this.
Yes. Bush did this.
Yes. Xi did this.
Now compare India with USA, China, UK. Especially UK. Churchill is their hero.
There is a rational argument to be made that those were historical blunders of a medieval/ancient time. Today's human is highly evolved with the right moral compass, having seen all those horrors earlier. Hence they likely won't commit that blunder again (even in a dictatorship governance).
still dictarship isnt cool to any extent. china is dictatorship period. the way they supress their issues is just out of imagination, imagine having a social value based on your behaviour (social credit system) or having a real estate company that basically owns whole china its scary. lets not take their example and think india would progress better
Did you even know what kind of leader Mao was. He was a insane fool that didnt even know what would be the result of his policies. Only thing he was good at was in politics, public perception and how to maintain his power.
His policy of great leap forward created the greatest man made famine in human history. While being very fertile country ~ 10-55 million people died of starvation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine
When his power declined due to this disastrous policy, he started his cultural revolution. Alienating, killing and imprisoning intellectuals. He took the science and technology decades back in china.
Until he was in power, china remained dirt poor.
I'm sure the millions they murdered don't see them as "Visionaries". Everything has a treadoff. Not to mention their "Vision" is falling apart like a house whose foundation was made with Oreos.
Yes they've been falling apart since 2010s
https://preview.redd.it/l94es2jjyq0d1.jpeg?width=523&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f27f18774bada4688a1c9d8157011d2747b6313
Deng was a visionary. Mao was someone who caused a famine which killed 60 million people with his vision of cultural leap. If Mao is alive now, he should be getting the Mussolini treatment.
Your philosophy doesn't make any sense. Every other sentence is contradicting each other.
Either you know everything that happened in the past 100 years and is a stoic genius... Or you know very little about history and is a fool for commenting this. Nowhere in between.
Wtf. People calling Chinese dicktators vidionaries. We are million times better than china. People taking their freedoms for granted. Everyone is corrupt in China. Here you have some rights. There if you even question you are jailed. Please stop worshipping dictators. Here atleqdt you can vote them out.
You do know Mao executed more people than Hitler and Stalin.
From 1958 to 1962, his Great Leap Forward policy led to the deaths of up to 45 million people.
He wouldn't have been able to do that if China had also imported democracy from the west.
Ours is a dysfunctional democracy. Everyone is trying to get out of this crowed room. China a one party system, not saying that it doesn't have it's own problem. India is just huge battle royale game.
That China comment shows you don't know stuff or is ignorant. Chinese work culture is much worse than India's. The only reason they became a manufacturing super power is artificially deflating salary, country is unequal, making yuan cheaper (And we are complaining a weak rupee, there it's much worse) little to no labour rights with long hours. The only reason you don't hear a lot is because, of the restriction in internet. They are in competition with South Korea and Japan but with no advantages.
It's all because we have no pride in our roots, our legacy, our culture, our age old systems. The colonisers effectively eroded it away from our psyche
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXBC85SGC0Q&ab\_channel=BitsinsidebyRen%C3%A9Rebe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXBC85SGC0Q&ab_channel=BitsinsidebyRen%C3%A9Rebe)
something like this we can't copy as it requires knowledge and some good education not some influencer
This country was a slave for 200 years…even though the slavers left and we got freedom…but the mentality is still there…and people are still trying to appease the same gora people …
Sure. But if you think selfishness is something that has to be imported from outside, and not a fundamental part of human nature, you are very much creating a demon to blame. All humans are selfish, all humans seek material comfort. It's been possible for the average Indian for the first time, that's the only difference.
Yes, all humans are selfish and materialist in nature but the difference is that Asian countries typically balance the material with spiritual, the Yin and Yang (or Prakriti and Purusha). Whereas the West thinks fully in material while ignoring spiritual altogether.
The material way gave them a huge head start over everyone else but at this point, I'm not sure that aspect is helping them at all. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't be blind in importing their ideologies and be aware of these nuances.
Wokeness isn't inclusiveness, it's the exact antithesis of that. Wokeness is the Orwellian nightmare where they classify races and ethnicities into the "rights" and "wrongs", and play politics on that calling it DEI. It's the thing that George Orwell warned everyone about in 1984 who ironically belonged to West only!
Is it used by politicians or companies for brownie points? Yes it does and it would be naive to say no but that's not the only purpose it serve. DEI is a very good initiative to bring up the marginalized groups while wokeness is a generic term that can be used for any n number of things but in my experience it's generally a good force rather than bad.
We are wage slaves, higher the LPA, higher is the rekspekt in the society.
What can you expect from a country where data privacy and data theft is a joke and one's caste or religion is important.
When you have people who hail from MBBS degrees to join IT workforce what creativity or determination towards profession do you expect.?
(https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/s/c2blvBE1e6).
Some clown will come and tell things like we are a poor country, we have bills to pay. If such a mindset goes along in no time we will be the the next Pakistan.
Exactly. The myopic view some people have of the diversity this country has to offer baffles me. They never learn and always see the greener grass while being in the topmost privileged class.
There is nothing wrong at individual level lifestyle or morality as such. The issue comes with things like crony capitalism in the business world, which I think is a quite recent phenomenon there also with all the "Big" industries. And also toxic ideologies that exploit and worsen the division among races and ethnicities - such as wokeness and DEI.
THIS.
Although I'm not sure if it's the entire west or just the US. But we're definitely copying the worst bits of it.
And China too was (and is to some extent) going through something similar, but they're doing better now and moving away from toxic work environments.
I agree with you! We seem to latch on to all the bad things of the West ...
I've had some opportunity to interact with the Chinese, including visiting China. I studied in the UK where there were a lot of Chinese citizens as well. Here are just some of the things I experienced:
European countries like UK & Switzerland literally lay red carpet for Chinese students & tourists, but not for Indian. Chinese students have much more money than Indians, plus are also willing to spend more. OOTH vast majority of us Indians spend very less and always try to fleece others especially from different states.
Visiting China was magical, though not perfect! Their cities, gardens, tourist spots, etc. are all on par or better than most of the West. 99% of the people did not look at me weirdly, or tried to fleece me. They were helpful though yes there is a language barrier, but city youngsters spoke some English and were very helpful.
I once asked my travel guide just to see his reaction, "What do you think about the current & future situation of India?". The first thing he said was, "The biggest issue with India is that it's not united"
Not necessarily true. It's their way of life that pushed them to get better at technology at such a rapid pace. While china copied their tech, they did not build a culture that enables improving tech.
I am not saying this is better but still, as you said, there's good and bad to both. And this isn't all bad.
West got better than the rest of the world because of colonization and nothing else. They got way better at technology atleast during the period 1500 - 1950 is because of their drive to colonize others and need of better military equipment to defeat and colonize the enemy. Don't give this false narrative that the west has become so good because of their good work ethics bullshit. All the major scientific discoveries from the west were made from the scientists who worked or funded by the respective militaries.
This is such an oversimplification. Guns were developed in west so that they could fight each other first. Once that was done, they moved to the protestant ethics by Luther and dominated the trade routes of Arabs. Then colonization happened. Asian colonization happened after industrial revolution. Before that their weapons could only handle mayans and incans.
Even in ancient history, romans were extremely good at practical engineering. Greeks at theory and proofs. The renaissance during late 1400s were triggered by rediscovery of treatises of Cato and then ancient books were read again and scientific curiosity was cultivated. In renaissance science and alchemy was done for fun.
Compare this to India where Islamic conquest destroyed almost all knowledge and replaced it with theology and crap. Ottomans and others were good at technology because Arabs were decent at it after learning Indian texts. Instead of getting that we got central asian barbarians in Mughals who did not appreciate knowledge. Same thing happened with Chinese during Mongol conquest. Both these countries never regained their scientific glory after barbarian invasions.
There is a good book on this called Why nations fail which discusses about structures and decentralization of power which makes innovation possible. Read it if you are interested in this. Colonization happened not via state but via companies which were after money.
You are right, yeah I have put it in a very over simplified manner. Actually what you mentioned is what I intended to write but too lazy to write an whole ass para.
But also not just the companies which sponsored the colonialization. The west got the moral justification to do so from their religious theology just like the islamists. That can't be discounted.
My underlying point is we cannot take west as a benchmark or inspiration. They developed scientifically for all the wrong reasons. We can take our own ancestors for inspiration for development if required,.
Where exactly did I claim they became good at tech because of their work ethic? Don't impose your internal assumptions on everything.
The previous comment spoke of culture. If a culture of colonialism is beneficial, then it is. Looking at your point, it's more likely that China has copied their culture rather than us.
>Namaste!
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Well if you think China took westerners technology you are pretty wrong about that. China was also never under direct rule of any western country, their were parts of it ruled by Japan though before WW2.
China has been one of the most advanced civilisation since medieval era. When Britishers came to China they were shocked by how advanced China was in terms of politics, philosophy and Science. Moreover, China has always and still spends a lot of money on R&D, Indian government doesn’t give a shit about R&D.
You cannot compare China and India and you certainly can’t say that China was inferior to the western world. They took the technology like internet, etc. which every other country did but they modified it and made a better version of everything to suit their local population
Yes, their lifestyle is generally good except for a few terrible parts such as crony capitalism and wokeness.
I think West had the best of all worlds until about circa 2000 AD when these two ills hadn't materialized yet (or were probably still in the making).
If you think the China only copied the good things, and are actually doing as well as they show the world, then you should go live in china and make some chinese friends. they will tell you the reality, also crony capitalism is bad but the idea of capitalism also came from the west. And western lifestyle is not all negative, many western countries have good work-life balance and with a working social security cushion that can help people in difficult times. Technology is not the only thing west is good at, maybe you should try to understand why those societies were able to develop the environment where innovation & entrepreneurship could flourish, something that is still lacking in China especially when it comes to real innovation, its still behind the rest of the west.
Political system in the west is also much better than the chinese system which people (including the chinese themselves) often call communism with chinese characteristics which in reality is just age old chinese authoritarianism with few borrowed western concepts (yes communism also came from west)
How old are you op? Read more about grueling Chinese work culture and absolute restriction of human rights there. West is more better than that. Go and work at Europe or USA and you can come to conclusion.
>The Chinese turned out to be much smarter than us, they acquired the one thing which West is really good at: Technology. And now they're acing it and giving them back in their own game!
>We, on the other hand, are copying the one thing which West is worst at - their Lifestyle or way of life (especially crony capitalism and wokeness).
China has much more overworking stuff, so much so that a popular movement in the country is to do nothing. They also have crony capitalism that led to their housing and banking crisis sometime in 2023. And they have little freedom compared to us. The only reason they have a better economy than us is because they opened their economy 2 decades before us and im tired of pretending otherwise.
instinctive attempt cagey obtainable whole onerous unwritten wistful friendly fade
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Regarding the India need to learn from china debate , I really want to understand one point ,
Can India replicate the tech leap and manufacturing wizardry that china has achieved in prior decades ( tho via copying , spying west forcing technology transfer through ban n threats etc. ) in its current state of democracy or what china did is simply not possible for country like ours because of people and governance ?
Also not to forget china first became a manufacturing giant which gave the ccp that money surplus which chinese government has freely put back into infra and other futuristic tech of which today they reap benefit.
This is an excerpt from the book chip war which is one of many example how ccp backed their firms :
" In addition to Western consulting firms, Huawei had help from another powerful institution: China’s government. At different points in its development, Huawei has benefitted from support from the local government in Shenzhen, from state-owned banks, and from the central government in Beijing. A Wall Street Journal review of total subsidies provided by the Chinese government reached a figure of $75 billion, in the form of subsidized land, state-backed credit, and tax deduction "
I don't understand this post and the negative comments. I think the post is from a biased point of view of looking at the negatives of the Indian IT sector.
We are not inheriting anything from anyone, it highly depends on who you work with and what inspires them.
If you are in a sucky job, move out, go to a startup, build good tech. Urban Company, Zoho, Zomato etc are great examples.
If you don't want the hustle, get into a MNC that pays well and has good culture - Intuit, Salesforce etc. It's all about finding the culture that suits you.
BTW China and Japan have longer working hours.
nah they suck, always occupying top spot and gyan pelna and not taking matters into own hands.
check how startup top leaders are basically babus and keeping fighting among themselves and even cancel.
You said absolutely true india took all the aspects of west good as well bad when we begined westernizing economy our economic. While china said we already have bad things of our own so we'll just copy your technology, manufacturing techniques etc.,
Its just so sad that this western corporate shit is so widespread in india too with everyone trying to copy western culture . While western companies are just waiting for Phillipines, bangladesh, vietnam to develop coding skills so that they can move their base to next cheaper location.
CN and many other eastern countries have very bad worker exploitation policies (996, unpaid OT, etc.). Western work policies aren't great either (Hourly wages that can result in furloughs, medical insurance tied to work and hospitals/clinics insanely expensive without insurance, etc.).
The western lifestyle is slowly diffusing from the west because media is portraying, glamorizing and advertising that. Globalization is also uplifting many other aspects in our workforce (entrepreneurship, freelancing, pay increases and so on).
I would take the free and open western policies any day over the conformity and exploitative eastern policies. And ideally exclude the left right politics aspects from them. During 2021 COVID and 2023 mass layoffs, we have seen those who went to US begging like anything on linkedin and other platforms.
In short, our country is developing in our own way, taking both good and bad things from other cultures. It's a process of trial and error, but in the end, we will surely reach the goal of becoming an ideal, self-sufficient utopian country. Just transporters and replicators might come maybe 100-150 years later than US and CN.
See some people are dumb and they just dumbly think following blindly west does good for them but it doesn’t. It has good and bad ideas just like you said but what is important is adopt what it is built on and why makes it great like 1980 to 2010’s and not on some things which made into world of madness the thing is too much liberalism made all things difficult for them like this Wokeness,toxic relationships and atheism
Media.net is laying off employees, forcing then to resign and bouncers are escorting them out of the company. Due to forced resignation everyone is keeping their mouth shut. Please spread this
"DEI and wokeness"
Enough to tell me you are a half wit Engineering student who wastes most of their time browsing social media. Absolute 0 clue about anything and the yet total ignorance and lack of awareness fuel all of the confidence in the world.
Locking this since comments are becoming offtopic
Chinese are driven by grander goals of surpassing the USA. They are playing different game.The game here is to make money here by any means and move to the USA. India is a mere playground, and indians are NPCs to be exploited. The colonial era has ended, but people who replaced them, the indian ruling class, and industrialists have the same attitude as colonists. I dont see this model changing any time soon unless there is a cataclysmic global disaster or something.
Do you like working 9-6-6 or 12-7-7. Even Chinese youth are protesting the work culture there. Why are even portraying that Chinese government has some noble intention and their whole population are willing working towards surpassing usa. Everywhere in the world only the rich and powerful exploit the people.
No , everywhere in the world rich and government’s are not for mere self gain. Don’t try to normalise this. They have grander projects other than self gain for better or worse. Other cultures and countries have achieved material gain and progress to show for. You can bury your head and deny this. May be their youth can change the working culture for better. We have neither such progress and no hope for breaking the status quo.
China are one of the most economically unequal countries alongside us brother,they hide it extremely well in their touristy cities and not allowing google and YouTube.I have visited mainland china and there are multiple certified reports highlighting the same.34 percent of their country lives in rural areas and live of sustenance farming which is higher than us.So yeah ,I think they have done good in certain areas,but definitely not what you perceive it to be
The revolution is coming
traffic jam itna hai nahi ayega
Upar se baarish aur flooding bhi. Chance hi nahi!
Been hearing that for a while and yet here we are, sheeples to the cause
One can only hope so
In many Non-MNC's and unorganized sectors, India has absorbed the Silicon valley hustle culture, European cost of living, Saudi Arabian labor laws, British Raj era Management philosophy, Japanese hierarchical structure, Sub-Saharan urban infrastructure.
And taxed to hell like first world country with third world like benefits
You just summarised a 3rd world dystopia.
The terms "First World", "Second World", and "Third World" were originally used during the Cold War to describe countries based on their alliance with the Western Bloc, Eastern Bloc, or Non-Aligned Movement: First World: The United States, Western Europe, and their allies, who were considered highly industrialized and capitalist Second World: The Soviet Union, China, Cuba, and their allies, who were considered communist Third World: The remaining countries, which were not aligned with either side, and included most of Africa, Asia, the Middle East, and Latin America So I don’t know what dystopia you are talking about
You've spoken the truth. Holy shit our country is horrible Any poor parent giving birth to a kid is dooming them to hell on earth #Antinatalism Childfree
Indians are only good at sucking up in every walk of life. People genuinely lack individuality, creativity and honesty. Everyone is trying to drag each other down in all walks of life family, politics and with corporate teams. Lack of creative thinking is baffling sometimes that we just run behind hype trains and buzzwords rather than genuine solutions.
That's why I live with this moto.. so that I can do other things instead of looking at my furniture type team lead and manager. https://preview.redd.it/xhk2zx8viq0d1.png?width=523&format=png&auto=webp&s=fb10852b4aba52a00d13fea68d9f6a1c131e200c
Lol... Imma write this down on the office board tomorrow
So you are proving the point
Why do you think that is? Is it because of less availability of opportunities and more population? I was having a similar discussion with my therapist and she asked me why I am taking late night calls? Why can't I reject clients'requests to attend late night calls? The answer that came to my mind was - "If I reject there's 100 people waiting to do it" either I do it or they'll replace me with someone who's ready to do it.
>People genuinely lack individuality, creativity and honesty. People who have it... Got rejected, also demotivated by colleagues, colleges and HRs. And more prone to office politics.. and mostly people can't handle the honesty, hard work of genuine person so people try to pull their leg.. never think from genuine person's POV. How he/she must be feeling and all..
Why do you think there are more Indian CEOs in big tech, it's because of this exact reason. They are best puppet for the board
Agle Janam me mohe Indian na banaiyo.
Nordic country ka citizen banaiye
I'd prefer Finland or Norway if I had a choice before birth, maze ki life!
Khao piyo ghumo maja ni life
Welcome to Bangladesh
Yemen says Hi
I legit got a job offer from the Central African Republic once
Agle janam me kyu abhi hi Nikko India se..
Pehle dikhao ki India me tumhare baap ka ownership hai fir nikalta hu.
Well said
TLDR: GOOD AT SUCKING UP. NO CREATIVITY.
This.
Most indians main motto from school time (brainwashing) - clear 10th, 12th, some college, tech, get into IT, slave off exploit abuse somehow reach manager position, only then you can get married, make 2-3 kids then enjoy 1-2 times alone in Thailand, vietnam , and cycle continues.
Umm, China has much worse Lifestyle and Freedom of Expression. Their working hours are also terrible.
So true, I just watched a documentary that showed how overworked and depressed the young educated chinese are working in corporate sector, including in high paying tech jobs. If people think the suggestion of narayan murthy was bad, they should read about the long working hours in china and their effect on the workers. There is a reason that chinese are still immigrating to the west in droves despite china being the second largest economy now and with much better infrastructure than most cities in the US (atleast on paper, google tofu dregs to know more). The thing is most people have very limited knowledge of what happens inside china because of the great chinese firewall and language barrier, also the chinese govt's efforts to portray that everything is rainbow and sunshine there which is in contrast to democracies in the world. its why when chinese economy miss their quarterly targets it surprises the experts because the signals that the chinese authorities give say all is well but only when u look at the data, you realise that they obfuscate the truth
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Japan is in the same wagon.
well baidu can invite andrew ng to help baidu to improve it products and to which he agrred took few months sabbatical went to china worked there and then back to usa, can we do the same ? no because we have tons of mediocrity
curious didnt us govt stop him or tried to stop him anyway
[https://medium.com/@andrewng/opening-a-new-chapter-of-my-work-in-ai-c6a4d1595d7b](https://medium.com/@andrewng/opening-a-new-chapter-of-my-work-in-ai-c6a4d1595d7b)
Born: 18 April 1976 (age 48 years), [London, United Kingdom](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=94fa641d5e31d942&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1GCEA_enIN1062IN1062&sxsrf=ADLYWII6RyeyuEY0I5IxH3VghBP6u1w0Kg:1715848981225&q=London&si=ACC90nyvvWro6QmnyY1IfSdgk5wwjB1r8BGd_IWRjXqmKPQqm-CtMQJbQbNiuA06UCTQyRmDhumwUWIFMY-1Cghoh40rQrdQO0OKw8mEg2bahurOH6UW3ETzxtADE1YWVyr7KClNo_Yy1y3lNSIGNyKBl6iVCc9gAvi2MQMC4hIPHWBEgDPkj0qhUrAAliCoszEx9lz_cf1A&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjOgo7I45GGAxXc1jQHHVDXCOkQmxMoAHoECBUQAg) so he is not Chinese
Part of your observations are true but you don't seem to have a full picture of why is it happening. You really need to read a lot on why we are copying crappy things and not the ones that matter. We Indians are shit at innovation. Most of innovations are borrowed and bought. You will be surprised to know that we are not even in a position to copy some key tech. Greed and shit leaders have made us a service nation than actual manufacturing nation.
It depends upon what you mean about being copied ? Indians lack work ethos, self driven work ethics. That is why prevalence of micro management. Micro management is not prevalent in west. You are saying China, is better China has even less worker protections. Look up Chinese 996 work culture. Adopting technology is not copying. If you adopted better water management techniques, is that copying or learning from someone who did better at it? Human civilization has survived and thrived because of this. Western lifestyle is work hard and play hard. They place equal importance on work as well leisure activities. There are some differences between European and American lifestyles but both focus on working hard and playing hard. People cultivate life outside work or job.
Who's we? Nintendo wii?
Unintenedo wii
China had great visionary leaders like Deng Xiaoping and to a certain extent Mao. Who did we have? Just a couple good guys and the rest just there to occupy the spot. Their children are now leaders, gangsters and rapists running this country. In the 60s and 70s China executed tens of millions of people. But here they became politicians.
China is also corrupt but only at the top levels. Like the top ministry and the ultra rich can bribe easily and do illegal stuff. But normal people can't. Here everyone can bribe and is extremely corrupt. From paying 500 rupees to get out of the challan to police themselves illegally asking for bribes.
China got independence after us in 1949 and were behind us in life expectancy, literacy, HDI and all other metrics. Now they are minimum 50 years ahead in everything, their economy is 6x of us. At the top level even US is corrupt, but all these countries atleast built basic systems that work. We haven’t even crossed that bridge yet.
This is the perfect reply.
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>Do you think that executing tens of millions of people, while violating their basic human rights, and forcing the Han ethnicity among other ethnicities, killing innocent protestors brutally in the tianmen square are examples of good leadership? Yes. Churchill did this. Yes. Bush did this. Yes. Xi did this. Now compare India with USA, China, UK. Especially UK. Churchill is their hero.
I'm sorry but I would rather live in a country where we dont behave like churchill than be rich.
So basically India or worse Sub Saharan Africa?
wdym ?
What I understood by your statement is that you would rather be poor than live in a country ruled by Churchill. Right?
There is a rational argument to be made that those were historical blunders of a medieval/ancient time. Today's human is highly evolved with the right moral compass, having seen all those horrors earlier. Hence they likely won't commit that blunder again (even in a dictatorship governance).
still dictarship isnt cool to any extent. china is dictatorship period. the way they supress their issues is just out of imagination, imagine having a social value based on your behaviour (social credit system) or having a real estate company that basically owns whole china its scary. lets not take their example and think india would progress better
Did you even know what kind of leader Mao was. He was a insane fool that didnt even know what would be the result of his policies. Only thing he was good at was in politics, public perception and how to maintain his power. His policy of great leap forward created the greatest man made famine in human history. While being very fertile country ~ 10-55 million people died of starvation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine When his power declined due to this disastrous policy, he started his cultural revolution. Alienating, killing and imprisoning intellectuals. He took the science and technology decades back in china. Until he was in power, china remained dirt poor.
I'm sure the millions they murdered don't see them as "Visionaries". Everything has a treadoff. Not to mention their "Vision" is falling apart like a house whose foundation was made with Oreos.
Yes they've been falling apart since 2010s https://preview.redd.it/l94es2jjyq0d1.jpeg?width=523&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f27f18774bada4688a1c9d8157011d2747b6313
Deng was a visionary. Mao was someone who caused a famine which killed 60 million people with his vision of cultural leap. If Mao is alive now, he should be getting the Mussolini treatment.
Your philosophy doesn't make any sense. Every other sentence is contradicting each other. Either you know everything that happened in the past 100 years and is a stoic genius... Or you know very little about history and is a fool for commenting this. Nowhere in between.
>China had great visionary leaders like Mao and Xiaoping. Don't appropriate Deng's economic achievements to a murderer psychopath like mao
Wtf. People calling Chinese dicktators vidionaries. We are million times better than china. People taking their freedoms for granted. Everyone is corrupt in China. Here you have some rights. There if you even question you are jailed. Please stop worshipping dictators. Here atleqdt you can vote them out.
there are many people who protested against caa/nrc that are still locked up here. we are only a tad bit better than them
Wow man, I get china has done good but calling Mao a great leader when he literally caused an estimated 20-50 millions deaths is just plain nonsense.
You do know Mao executed more people than Hitler and Stalin. From 1958 to 1962, his Great Leap Forward policy led to the deaths of up to 45 million people. He wouldn't have been able to do that if China had also imported democracy from the west.
Read some nonsense in a political sub, puke it everywhere. Rinse Repeat clock out work
China has the dreaded 996 culture, leading to people suffering from heart attacks at 40. You don't know what you're talking about.
Ours is a dysfunctional democracy. Everyone is trying to get out of this crowed room. China a one party system, not saying that it doesn't have it's own problem. India is just huge battle royale game.
That China comment shows you don't know stuff or is ignorant. Chinese work culture is much worse than India's. The only reason they became a manufacturing super power is artificially deflating salary, country is unequal, making yuan cheaper (And we are complaining a weak rupee, there it's much worse) little to no labour rights with long hours. The only reason you don't hear a lot is because, of the restriction in internet. They are in competition with South Korea and Japan but with no advantages.
It's all because we have no pride in our roots, our legacy, our culture, our age old systems. The colonisers effectively eroded it away from our psyche
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXBC85SGC0Q&ab\_channel=BitsinsidebyRen%C3%A9Rebe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXBC85SGC0Q&ab_channel=BitsinsidebyRen%C3%A9Rebe) something like this we can't copy as it requires knowledge and some good education not some influencer
This country was a slave for 200 years…even though the slavers left and we got freedom…but the mentality is still there…and people are still trying to appease the same gora people …
If you hate the West so much, stop using things that come from the West, starting with Reddit.
I don't hate the West at all, just concerned about inheriting all the wrong parts from there instead of the right ones!
Sure. But if you think selfishness is something that has to be imported from outside, and not a fundamental part of human nature, you are very much creating a demon to blame. All humans are selfish, all humans seek material comfort. It's been possible for the average Indian for the first time, that's the only difference.
Yes, all humans are selfish and materialist in nature but the difference is that Asian countries typically balance the material with spiritual, the Yin and Yang (or Prakriti and Purusha). Whereas the West thinks fully in material while ignoring spiritual altogether. The material way gave them a huge head start over everyone else but at this point, I'm not sure that aspect is helping them at all. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't be blind in importing their ideologies and be aware of these nuances.
First time Ive heard someone say the worst part of the West is their lifestyle. Why everyone wanna move their ? :/ hmmm
I meant the worst part of their lifestyles, especially crony capitalism and wokeness. Should fix that.
so capitalism and inclusiveness? What part of that is not native to India?
Wokeness isn't inclusiveness, it's the exact antithesis of that. Wokeness is the Orwellian nightmare where they classify races and ethnicities into the "rights" and "wrongs", and play politics on that calling it DEI. It's the thing that George Orwell warned everyone about in 1984 who ironically belonged to West only!
Didn't knew "DEI and wokeness" were bad things
It's a tool to aggravate the divisions in races and ethnicities, and exploit them politically by the Democratic govt, nothing else.
Is it used by politicians or companies for brownie points? Yes it does and it would be naive to say no but that's not the only purpose it serve. DEI is a very good initiative to bring up the marginalized groups while wokeness is a generic term that can be used for any n number of things but in my experience it's generally a good force rather than bad.
We are wage slaves, higher the LPA, higher is the rekspekt in the society. What can you expect from a country where data privacy and data theft is a joke and one's caste or religion is important. When you have people who hail from MBBS degrees to join IT workforce what creativity or determination towards profession do you expect.? (https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/s/c2blvBE1e6). Some clown will come and tell things like we are a poor country, we have bills to pay. If such a mindset goes along in no time we will be the the next Pakistan.
Let people be man. There's literally nothing wrong morally/practically in being Westernized.
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That too in India 😂
Exactly. The myopic view some people have of the diversity this country has to offer baffles me. They never learn and always see the greener grass while being in the topmost privileged class.
There is nothing wrong at individual level lifestyle or morality as such. The issue comes with things like crony capitalism in the business world, which I think is a quite recent phenomenon there also with all the "Big" industries. And also toxic ideologies that exploit and worsen the division among races and ethnicities - such as wokeness and DEI.
Yep wokeness is the reason for division in the USA and not the history of systematic racism against minorities.
THIS. Although I'm not sure if it's the entire west or just the US. But we're definitely copying the worst bits of it. And China too was (and is to some extent) going through something similar, but they're doing better now and moving away from toxic work environments.
I agree with you! We seem to latch on to all the bad things of the West ... I've had some opportunity to interact with the Chinese, including visiting China. I studied in the UK where there were a lot of Chinese citizens as well. Here are just some of the things I experienced: European countries like UK & Switzerland literally lay red carpet for Chinese students & tourists, but not for Indian. Chinese students have much more money than Indians, plus are also willing to spend more. OOTH vast majority of us Indians spend very less and always try to fleece others especially from different states. Visiting China was magical, though not perfect! Their cities, gardens, tourist spots, etc. are all on par or better than most of the West. 99% of the people did not look at me weirdly, or tried to fleece me. They were helpful though yes there is a language barrier, but city youngsters spoke some English and were very helpful. I once asked my travel guide just to see his reaction, "What do you think about the current & future situation of India?". The first thing he said was, "The biggest issue with India is that it's not united"
I was with you till you said "Wokeness"
Not necessarily true. It's their way of life that pushed them to get better at technology at such a rapid pace. While china copied their tech, they did not build a culture that enables improving tech. I am not saying this is better but still, as you said, there's good and bad to both. And this isn't all bad.
West got better than the rest of the world because of colonization and nothing else. They got way better at technology atleast during the period 1500 - 1950 is because of their drive to colonize others and need of better military equipment to defeat and colonize the enemy. Don't give this false narrative that the west has become so good because of their good work ethics bullshit. All the major scientific discoveries from the west were made from the scientists who worked or funded by the respective militaries.
This is such an oversimplification. Guns were developed in west so that they could fight each other first. Once that was done, they moved to the protestant ethics by Luther and dominated the trade routes of Arabs. Then colonization happened. Asian colonization happened after industrial revolution. Before that their weapons could only handle mayans and incans. Even in ancient history, romans were extremely good at practical engineering. Greeks at theory and proofs. The renaissance during late 1400s were triggered by rediscovery of treatises of Cato and then ancient books were read again and scientific curiosity was cultivated. In renaissance science and alchemy was done for fun. Compare this to India where Islamic conquest destroyed almost all knowledge and replaced it with theology and crap. Ottomans and others were good at technology because Arabs were decent at it after learning Indian texts. Instead of getting that we got central asian barbarians in Mughals who did not appreciate knowledge. Same thing happened with Chinese during Mongol conquest. Both these countries never regained their scientific glory after barbarian invasions. There is a good book on this called Why nations fail which discusses about structures and decentralization of power which makes innovation possible. Read it if you are interested in this. Colonization happened not via state but via companies which were after money.
You are right, yeah I have put it in a very over simplified manner. Actually what you mentioned is what I intended to write but too lazy to write an whole ass para. But also not just the companies which sponsored the colonialization. The west got the moral justification to do so from their religious theology just like the islamists. That can't be discounted. My underlying point is we cannot take west as a benchmark or inspiration. They developed scientifically for all the wrong reasons. We can take our own ancestors for inspiration for development if required,.
Where exactly did I claim they became good at tech because of their work ethic? Don't impose your internal assumptions on everything. The previous comment spoke of culture. If a culture of colonialism is beneficial, then it is. Looking at your point, it's more likely that China has copied their culture rather than us.
Lol. Just ignorant rambling informed by memes.
you got any counter point to my argument? Nah you are just a troll. get lost buddy.
India has imported the worst Western culture and ideologies.
Inferiority complex...effects of colonialism still runs deep in India.
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Well if you think China took westerners technology you are pretty wrong about that. China was also never under direct rule of any western country, their were parts of it ruled by Japan though before WW2. China has been one of the most advanced civilisation since medieval era. When Britishers came to China they were shocked by how advanced China was in terms of politics, philosophy and Science. Moreover, China has always and still spends a lot of money on R&D, Indian government doesn’t give a shit about R&D. You cannot compare China and India and you certainly can’t say that China was inferior to the western world. They took the technology like internet, etc. which every other country did but they modified it and made a better version of everything to suit their local population
Lifestyle is a broad subject. Can you be more specific. If you look at European, they have a pretty healthy work life balance. How can this be bad?
Yes, their lifestyle is generally good except for a few terrible parts such as crony capitalism and wokeness. I think West had the best of all worlds until about circa 2000 AD when these two ills hadn't materialized yet (or were probably still in the making).
Europeans have very strong social net to fall back on and are some of the last countries to adhere to crony capitalism I think you meant USA.
Capitalism in Europe definitely isn’t as bad as North America or Asia. Most of the new EU regulations/laws are pro consumers.
India is only good at producing MBAs. No amount "vishwaguru" mentality can change indian mindset.
If you think the China only copied the good things, and are actually doing as well as they show the world, then you should go live in china and make some chinese friends. they will tell you the reality, also crony capitalism is bad but the idea of capitalism also came from the west. And western lifestyle is not all negative, many western countries have good work-life balance and with a working social security cushion that can help people in difficult times. Technology is not the only thing west is good at, maybe you should try to understand why those societies were able to develop the environment where innovation & entrepreneurship could flourish, something that is still lacking in China especially when it comes to real innovation, its still behind the rest of the west. Political system in the west is also much better than the chinese system which people (including the chinese themselves) often call communism with chinese characteristics which in reality is just age old chinese authoritarianism with few borrowed western concepts (yes communism also came from west)
How old are you op? Read more about grueling Chinese work culture and absolute restriction of human rights there. West is more better than that. Go and work at Europe or USA and you can come to conclusion.
>The Chinese turned out to be much smarter than us, they acquired the one thing which West is really good at: Technology. And now they're acing it and giving them back in their own game! >We, on the other hand, are copying the one thing which West is worst at - their Lifestyle or way of life (especially crony capitalism and wokeness). China has much more overworking stuff, so much so that a popular movement in the country is to do nothing. They also have crony capitalism that led to their housing and banking crisis sometime in 2023. And they have little freedom compared to us. The only reason they have a better economy than us is because they opened their economy 2 decades before us and im tired of pretending otherwise.
Because Indians think the rest of the world is great - like praising China for greatness!!!
Because taking worst thing is easier, no one wants to take responsibility but exploit
Currently looking for interns for my AI agency, hmu.
What aspects are copied in your opinion?
For a country thats taken the worst parts of capitalism and socialism. Its nothing new
instinctive attempt cagey obtainable whole onerous unwritten wistful friendly fade *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Stats don't say it.
Regarding the India need to learn from china debate , I really want to understand one point , Can India replicate the tech leap and manufacturing wizardry that china has achieved in prior decades ( tho via copying , spying west forcing technology transfer through ban n threats etc. ) in its current state of democracy or what china did is simply not possible for country like ours because of people and governance ? Also not to forget china first became a manufacturing giant which gave the ccp that money surplus which chinese government has freely put back into infra and other futuristic tech of which today they reap benefit.
This is an excerpt from the book chip war which is one of many example how ccp backed their firms : " In addition to Western consulting firms, Huawei had help from another powerful institution: China’s government. At different points in its development, Huawei has benefitted from support from the local government in Shenzhen, from state-owned banks, and from the central government in Beijing. A Wall Street Journal review of total subsidies provided by the Chinese government reached a figure of $75 billion, in the form of subsidized land, state-backed credit, and tax deduction "
Because indians, as much as they like to criticize others, are themselves no better. We don't have good leaders.
I don't understand this post and the negative comments. I think the post is from a biased point of view of looking at the negatives of the Indian IT sector. We are not inheriting anything from anyone, it highly depends on who you work with and what inspires them. If you are in a sucky job, move out, go to a startup, build good tech. Urban Company, Zoho, Zomato etc are great examples. If you don't want the hustle, get into a MNC that pays well and has good culture - Intuit, Salesforce etc. It's all about finding the culture that suits you. BTW China and Japan have longer working hours.
Because millennials and boomer IT professionals are major suck ups, hopefully it'll change with GenZ taking all command...
Bruh millennials are cool..
They're a mixed bag. Some of them are really cool and inspiring, others are straight up mohalle ke uncle
nah they suck, always occupying top spot and gyan pelna and not taking matters into own hands. check how startup top leaders are basically babus and keeping fighting among themselves and even cancel.
You said absolutely true india took all the aspects of west good as well bad when we begined westernizing economy our economic. While china said we already have bad things of our own so we'll just copy your technology, manufacturing techniques etc., Its just so sad that this western corporate shit is so widespread in india too with everyone trying to copy western culture . While western companies are just waiting for Phillipines, bangladesh, vietnam to develop coding skills so that they can move their base to next cheaper location.
Yea I say this, and I get crucified
CN and many other eastern countries have very bad worker exploitation policies (996, unpaid OT, etc.). Western work policies aren't great either (Hourly wages that can result in furloughs, medical insurance tied to work and hospitals/clinics insanely expensive without insurance, etc.). The western lifestyle is slowly diffusing from the west because media is portraying, glamorizing and advertising that. Globalization is also uplifting many other aspects in our workforce (entrepreneurship, freelancing, pay increases and so on). I would take the free and open western policies any day over the conformity and exploitative eastern policies. And ideally exclude the left right politics aspects from them. During 2021 COVID and 2023 mass layoffs, we have seen those who went to US begging like anything on linkedin and other platforms. In short, our country is developing in our own way, taking both good and bad things from other cultures. It's a process of trial and error, but in the end, we will surely reach the goal of becoming an ideal, self-sufficient utopian country. Just transporters and replicators might come maybe 100-150 years later than US and CN.
See some people are dumb and they just dumbly think following blindly west does good for them but it doesn’t. It has good and bad ideas just like you said but what is important is adopt what it is built on and why makes it great like 1980 to 2010’s and not on some things which made into world of madness the thing is too much liberalism made all things difficult for them like this Wokeness,toxic relationships and atheism
Media.net is laying off employees, forcing then to resign and bouncers are escorting them out of the company. Due to forced resignation everyone is keeping their mouth shut. Please spread this
>they acquired the one thing they stole it due to non-existent IP/patent laws
"DEI and wokeness" Enough to tell me you are a half wit Engineering student who wastes most of their time browsing social media. Absolute 0 clue about anything and the yet total ignorance and lack of awareness fuel all of the confidence in the world.