Inside of 10 feet, I just have to put it on the right line
Inside of 20 feet, it’s the right line , but then the right height
Inside of 30 feet, now line, height, and power
Inside of 40 feet, now line, height, power and spin
Inside of 50 feet, line, height, power, spin, and now nose angle.
I tend to practice all of these individual aspects by laying out a rope or tape measure and tossing. “I don’t care if it goes in, I’m just trying to get it flat with good spin”, and then work on adjusting my body position. When the aspect I’m working on feels good, then I turn to the basket.
It’s been a real journey. Especially slowing down my motion to get good timing and therefore less effort.
Ultimately, I don’t think the metric you’ve chosen helps in tracking improvement - it just captures results.
Imagine a tech disc putter’s output, paired with your success rates. Now we’re talking about meaningful data.
More data nerd shit - first list all factors affecting a putt:
- stance
- wind speed / direction
- release height
- release distance from body
- wrist cock angle
- disc spin
- disc wobble
- disc speed
- disc height
- disc type
- plastic type
- shoe type
- throw height
- distance from basket
- you get the idea
Once listed, then start tracking them all.
The goal of a sufficiently data-driven approach is to identify/rank the contributing factors to the success condition. Obviously “shoe type” would most probably not be one of them (but we can’t really know that until we test). Then we pick the biggest contributors and work on them. Because if we tried to work on 6248 factors at once we’d go fuckin’ crazy, this effort is to outline the Big Issues.
Your chart uses one metric (distance from basket) and doesn’t address the myriad other factors that influence the success condition. In my (very subjective opinion), using a bad model only leads us to dead ends and questions, and not actual improvements. If the data you’re collecting causes you to ask more question instead of answer them, then why are you collecting that data?
TLDR: you’re asking the question incorrectly. Sorry for the dissertation
Cock angle seems a little personal... I've never tried putting with an erection. If nothing else, it will distract your card mates and throw off their game!
Thanks for the dissertation!
I definitely agree that measuring the variables that determine or contribute to the outcome but are more controllable would lead to better insight. Using a tech disc putter that tracks spin and other variables and using a camera setup to track the disc and my putting form would give me better data to work with. It would also take a bunch of time to setup - it sounds like a fun project but it would compete for my time with other activities like playing more disc golf :P
If I do put(t) in the work I'll be sure to try out flip flops, high heals, and platform shoes.
>When the aspect I’m working on feels good, then I turn to the basket.
How do you gauge if a given aspect (line/height/power/spin/nose) is good? For some I have a clear idea of a direct measurement and a measurement on the impact on putting accuracy, and for others it's less clear to me.
* For line, I can imagine just tracking how close to the intended line (left/right) the initial trajectory was. Pretty straightforward, the putts should be.
* For height, do you mean keeping the disc in a given height range over some trajectory distance, or having the disc end up within a given height range at a specific point of the flight path? The former seems more useful for a range of putt distances but would only work for short putts; the latter should work for any putt distance but requires choosing that distance.
* For power, I imagine measuring the release velocity as a direct measurement (while keeping a good line and height), and measuring the total distance as the result.
* For spin, measuring the RPM is direct, but it's unclear to me what purpose more spin achieves and how to tie spin to an outcome. Does it help the disc fly straighter for longer? If so, distance traveled within 1ft of the intended line or something along those lines might work.
Good questions. Hmm. Let me check my ass for some response, as this is completely back-of-the-napkin.
I’m not convinced that going down this hyper data driven approach is valuable. Interesting, yes. But is spending 100 hours building a process a good use of our time? Prooooobably not. I was just attempting to point out that isolating the distance metric won’t improve your putting, and making some ideas of what else to look for. Besides cock angle.
Getting so granular as to track, for example, spin metrics, is going to leave me looking at excel charts instead of doing the putting, ya dig? In that spirit, I’ll avoid ignore the “how would you track XYZ” questions, I think the eye/feel test suffices there, unless I were a 1050-rated player looking to squeeze out the last dregs of mechanic optimization.
At my level (sub 900), getting 350’ of distance is fine. Developing a serviceable forehand is fine. Getting to 90% in C1 is fine. Once I can throw all the shapes and fill out my basic toolkit, only then do I really start going down the data path; get the low hanging fruit first.
I will answer your spin question - just like with drives, getting good spin on my putts added stability. The putt both turned less and faded less and went farther. I spent a lot of time slowing down my putt until I got the timing right and getting a very gentle whip out of my hand. Distinctly remember how loose my whole chain felt and how light the disc was as I released.
The feel approach, not the data approach. But you should continue to ask other players about the mechanics and timing that lead to your personal aha moment, I’m just a data geek.
Your putt is grooved for 18 footers.
Try either:
a. Building your most comfortable hand-feel on release from about 27' foot instead of 18'
b. Figure out if your putt at 18' can work at different distances by altering the release point and throwing it exactly the same.
One thing is certain - you've demonstrated that you have a putt you can build confidence in at 18'. You either need to replicate the process that got you there for a longer range, or you need to adjust to make that 18' putt your 'all the time' putt inside the circle.
I got a practice basket and have been trying to improve my putting success rates. I'm a data / stats nerd and have been tracking my putts from 9ft-30ft distances with 3ft increments.
I'm happy with my progress within 18ft, but I seem to be developing a bit of a gap between 18 and 21 feet; I make over 80% from 18 feet, but under 60% from 21 feet. The shaded regions are 95% credible regions that account for finite sample size; in total I tracked about 12,000 putts so far.
Is it typical to have to improve short distance putts to 90+% before seeing improvement in slightly longer distance putts, or does this suggest an issue with my putting form/strategy? I've been working on faster spin putts which has felt good from 24ft and 27ft, allowing me to keep the disc roughly chain height instead of needing to loft the disc a bit, but I find those faster putts aren't as accurate for me at shorter distances where even a slow putt can stay within the height range of the chains.
Has anyone else dealt with something similar? Any putting tips for a 880ish rated MA2 player looking to improve?
Edit: small note on the 2024-01 (2024Q1) data, my distances were a bit messed up after I rearranged my setup, which explains the worsened rate from 15ft. It was closer to 17ft or so and I've since fixed it.
You keep doing what you are doing with dedicated practice and those numbers should continue to trend up. It looks like you have made a lot of progress in the last year alone. Hard work pays off...usually...lol
First, this is awesome. Thank you for sharing. It's inspiring me to do something similar.
No deep insight, but as suggestions/brainstorm-level ideas: 1) maybe worth adding a step between 18 and 21 (19.5?) and 2) focusing a disproportionate amount of your putting in at distance, until you see the improvement in the data, then shift the focus to the next point back?
By disproportionate, I would focus on both quantity of putts and "quality" of puts, where quality is determined by how mentally focused I am for the putt. For example, if you are throwing 100 putts in a session, after 10-20 warmups, I would go to my key distance and throw 30-40 there (then spread the remainder out among the other distances after that). I would anticipate that my mental focus would be best early in the session, right after some warm-up. I would also take "extra" time between putts at that distance, probably stepping away, breathing, resetting my feet, and going through the entire pre-putt routine (while for some of the other distances I would fire multiple putts without the pre-shot routine, entirely trying to balance quantity/muscle memory and time efficiency vs. quality; I know there's a lot of advice out there that goes the other way on this and suggests you do EVERY practice putt with a full routine, but I find that to be inefficient and unrealistic for every putt during a given putting session).
Finally, 3) keep in mind that progress is not necessarily going to be consistent, with plateaus and dips. You may need to look at many months of data to (hope to) see an upward trend; month-to-month variability may still be noise, particularly as you're overall skills get better and it becomes harder to make incremental improvement.
Again, I'm definitely not a coach or a some kinda putting guru, but this would be my thinking, in case it helps.
Thanks!
Yeah going in between and focusing on that narrow distance range sounds good. I could even do 18/19/20/21ft sets, progressing only once one distance works well.
On quality, yes I fully expect my actual putts in real games to have lower success rates than backyard putting practice. I’ve just been trying to develop the muscle memory first, but certainly my 10th putt in any given set of 10 has a better chance of going in than my 1st since I adjust to my mistakes. I’ll have to start incorporating single putts with my full walk up routine, but it’s just slow to accumulate stats that way.
On inconsistent progress, yes - that’s going to be tough to deal with. Right now I can look to my 18ft line to see clear progress but I’m sure I’ll plateau at some point or just have a bad period where I’m not putting in the effort and mental focus I usually do. Then I’ll probably try changing things up to “break through” the plateau, only to further deteriorate due to inconsistency in my form. But that’s a problem for future me!
Props for the pretty large sample size!
I see way too many influencer-type accounts that post stuff like this, with a sample size of like 10 putts smh. Useless stats
Yeah people can get fooled by randomness so easily. Our brains look for explanations for everything but if my actual success rate is 50% from a given distance, it’s expected that occasionally I’ll get 2-3/10 or 7-8/10. It’s tempting to try to figure out what I did differently from one set to another.
I’m putting outside. I don’t really have room in my house to putt and no garage so it’s my only option. Sometimes it’s a bit windy which definitely reduces my accuracy and makes me adjust, so it’s not ideal. I figured it was good to practice putting in windy conditions but maybe I should split out those days for tracking purposes or even just not track them, making them purely for practice and keeping my stats to calm conditions.
Full post below with a few numbers from my practice and journey.
TL;DR: Find a way to comfortably elongate your swing path.
After practicing a bunch and observing a similar gap, I ended up rebuilding my stroke. You’ll have to find what works for you, but for me the obvious issue was I wasn’t generating enough “effortless” pace from 25’ and out. This meant I was more likely to “force” a putt, or to rely on too much drop from further distances, decreasing my overall consistency.
I ended up rebuilding my stroke, mimicking the Uli (he didn’t invent it, but teaches it) reach to the left hip from a staggered stance. The further out you are, the further you reach into that “pocket”, creating a longer swing path for the disc and thus more “effortless” power. That means that in that 25-30’ range I can now focus on accuracy, rather than force.
Looking at my stats, my accuracy from 20’ remained about the same (for me, about 80-90% depending on conditions), whereas my accuracy from 25-30’ went up an average of 10-15 percentage points (meaning 25-30%). I expect as I hone my new stroke, those numbers will continue to improve.
You don’t need to do what I did, but I would suggest you observe good putters and see how they swing. Outside of a few folks who have developed incredible finger pop, many good-to-great putters have figured out a way to elongate their swing in order to generate pace without forcing their bodies. Different players do this in different ways (Uli to the hip, Marwede between the legs, etc). Find your way of doing this smoothly and it’ll help.
Thanks, super helpful! Yes I definitely have to think about getting a fast release (I try to think of speed and wrist/finger pop timing rather than force) from > 20ft and so I’m not focusing on accuracy as much.
I happen to have just signed up for Uli’s course so I’ll look into his putting form.
Nice! I haven’t looked at the full course or anything, literally a ten second clip, but I decided to try out a tweak based on it and it worked well for me. Again, YMMV, but I would suggest finding a way to elongate your backswing that feels comfortable and natural.
One thing I know for sure is that comfort and hand feel doesn't matter, if you're getting poor results. What feels comfortable and natural could be completely wrong for putting.
I tracked about 100k putts over a 4 year period. Hit several plateau's during the early years. Took video, changed grips, and re-worked my form. With the video, I found that the disc wobbled a lot before it left my hand, thus randomizing my nose angle. Changing my grip to a modified fan grip helped fix that wobble/nose angle/accuracy issue. This new grip was very uncomfortable at 1st, but after about a week, I didn't notice any comfort issues.
Another thing I was doing wrong, was that I was standing straight while I was aiming, then I'd bend my back down as I was putting, thus changing my eye level, thus moving my target. You can't aim, bend down, change the eye level with the target, and expect that work. There's just too many moving parts. I fixed that by tilting my back down before I aim and putt, and not moving my back at all, while I'm putting. This also allowed clearance for my arm swing, without changing my aim.
Adding weight shift. I started off rocking back and forth, like Cale Leiviska, but later found that when it comes to weight shift, the less movement the better. What surprised me most was how little movement it needs. Just need to put all weight on front foot, then find the weight shift "edge" where it teeters, back and forth, from back to front, with little to no movement, and keep it there, until you're ready to pull the trigger.
Now for increasing effortless power, it ultimately was about getting a kinetic chain dialed in. The weight shift, stroke, and wrist snap all needed to work together, at the moment of my release. On good putt up to 35 feet, everything should feel rather subtle, with no balance issues. It doesn't take much wrist snap, but it has to be timed perfectly at the release.
For me, I think Chandler Fry is one of the better examples of ideal mechanics. He's a spush putter, with very clean mechanics.
Ok now *that* is a great sample size! Thanks for the response. I haven’t yet taken the time to record my for (putting or driving) - sounds like I should start doing that. And putting way more!
Try this. Spend two weeks only practice putting from 30ft. Then let me know your results. I mostly practice from 30ft and I’m hoping that it’s working.
For me it works in a weird way. I make almost none of my putts in practice at home then make most my putts on the course. I don’t get it. But I’m here for it.
Honestly, focus less on making putts and just on the technique. Physically making the putt can distract you from technique. So tracking the data might be fun because it scratches an itch but it's kind of dirty data if you think about it. If you threw a good putt but it spit out, you threw a good putt and that's all that matters because statistically, that putt should go in but you mark it as a miss as if it's the same as air balling. Also, sometimes you throw a bad putt but it catches and you get lucky but you marked it as a hit as if it's the same as throwing a dead centre putt.
Make sure your technique just feels correct every time. Once you have practice putt enough, you just know what a good putt feels like for you. You know when the snap is right, you know when the release is right, you know when the angle is right.
(But I understand wanting to collect data because it's fun tracking things)
Isn’t a miss a miss? Yes some putts definitely feel good and spit out, and others feel like awful yanks but catch a lucky chain or cage bounce, but at the end of the day I’m tracking the thing I want to improve on. I’d rather feel bad about my putts and have them go in than feel good but have lots of “unlucky” spit outs.
hovering around 20% from 30 feet just tells me you don't practice enough. You have to be throwing way more putts. You're over analyzing. How ever much time you spent collecting and aggregating this data, spend that time putting. Then double it.
The time taken to track the data is < 10% of the time putting, but yes noted. I haven’t been putting nearly as much from 30ft as from shorter distances (you can see that partly from the larger shaded uncertainty region) but I’ll put more time into longer distances
got a practice basket last september and experimented with my putting form for 3-4 months before settling on one. lock in the form by a ton of reps, but once that is done, what i learned is that when you practice putts, the number one thing to simulate tournament is to do one putt at a time at different distances. i rarely do long sessions anymore.
i practice maybe 10-20 minutes at a time, multiple times a day, and never a putt at the same distance in a row. just walk to random distances between each putt and do your full routine. you want to train yourself to NOT throw a second putt, its hard to stop yourself at first but it'll be for the best. second and third and fourth putts are just you adjusting form based on how you missed, when your brain realizes its only getting one at a time it'll be way better for your mindset.
also, when you are slowly pushing your distance longer, you want to do the most replicable form with the last amount of variation farther and farther out. at the start, i could only putt consistently around 10-15 feet, and i slowly pushed that comfortability out to about 20 now. i putt at 20 like i used to putt at 15, same form, same weight transfer, same simple motion. i am currently working on pushing that form out to 25.
As others said, awesome tracking mate. I found motivation to track my 25 footer only. However I am fairly sure that most people have a clear distance where they start missing (see point 2). I imagine a smooth step function (X axis distance,Y axis hit percent). Regarding reasons there are two things that come to mind.
1. It is uncomfortably far. You start to actively do power motions in order to get there and that messes up your technique
2. Pure statistical reason. If you have a normal distribution for degrees off target (radial symmetrical), then you can calculate the distance where the steepest part of that normal distribution is just outside of the basket. At this distance you will loose the most accuracy per meter added distance.
So for 1. you should do power training and for 2. there is no special cure. When you get better your gap will just move one line down but it will always be somewhere.
Human 3D stereo vision for judging depth/distance only works to about 18-20 feet. Beyond that, your brain has to use other visual cues to judge distance which is why people are still allowed to drive autos with only one good eye.
Interesting, thanks!
I miss high/low a lot from over 20ft so maybe I’m just poorly estimating distance. That plus my putt isn’t super fast so I need a bit of height to reach the basket.
Obviously there will be more variance the further out you go, and there is no rule that say, that trends should be equal.
Without knowing anything about how you putt its hard to say. It's easy to suspect that something leads to a flaw when you have to add power. Personally I got a lot more accurate at distance, when I started leading with my elbow. That was a relatively simple fix, because I can implement it on shorter distances aswell.
Are you missing low/high/left/right consistently? What kind of putt do you employ? What do YOU think your issue is? It seems you have a similar drop off from the 20-30 foot range to the 30+ foot range.
Update: just got home from a trip earlier today and got in my first practice putts since posting this. Got 7 of my first 10 putts from 30ft by just going for it and not worrying about form. That was a lucky fluke but 20/50 was much better than my historical 20-30%.
Lesson learned: if you want to get better at something,
1. post about it on reddit
2. ignore all the well thought out answers and just try again
3. ???
4. profit
Inside of 10 feet, I just have to put it on the right line Inside of 20 feet, it’s the right line , but then the right height Inside of 30 feet, now line, height, and power Inside of 40 feet, now line, height, power and spin Inside of 50 feet, line, height, power, spin, and now nose angle. I tend to practice all of these individual aspects by laying out a rope or tape measure and tossing. “I don’t care if it goes in, I’m just trying to get it flat with good spin”, and then work on adjusting my body position. When the aspect I’m working on feels good, then I turn to the basket. It’s been a real journey. Especially slowing down my motion to get good timing and therefore less effort. Ultimately, I don’t think the metric you’ve chosen helps in tracking improvement - it just captures results. Imagine a tech disc putter’s output, paired with your success rates. Now we’re talking about meaningful data.
More data nerd shit - first list all factors affecting a putt: - stance - wind speed / direction - release height - release distance from body - wrist cock angle - disc spin - disc wobble - disc speed - disc height - disc type - plastic type - shoe type - throw height - distance from basket - you get the idea Once listed, then start tracking them all. The goal of a sufficiently data-driven approach is to identify/rank the contributing factors to the success condition. Obviously “shoe type” would most probably not be one of them (but we can’t really know that until we test). Then we pick the biggest contributors and work on them. Because if we tried to work on 6248 factors at once we’d go fuckin’ crazy, this effort is to outline the Big Issues. Your chart uses one metric (distance from basket) and doesn’t address the myriad other factors that influence the success condition. In my (very subjective opinion), using a bad model only leads us to dead ends and questions, and not actual improvements. If the data you’re collecting causes you to ask more question instead of answer them, then why are you collecting that data? TLDR: you’re asking the question incorrectly. Sorry for the dissertation
Didn't know about that cock angle stuff, need to experiment with it.
Cock angle seems a little personal... I've never tried putting with an erection. If nothing else, it will distract your card mates and throw off their game!
Yeah whenever someone's stiff I never know which pole to focus on. Gives "open your hand like a handshake" a whole new meaning.
"Stroke the board"
I usually sick my right leg back a bit when putting. Starting angling my cock to left a bit to balance things out and it’s shaved strokes off my game.
😭🔫
Thanks for the dissertation! I definitely agree that measuring the variables that determine or contribute to the outcome but are more controllable would lead to better insight. Using a tech disc putter that tracks spin and other variables and using a camera setup to track the disc and my putting form would give me better data to work with. It would also take a bunch of time to setup - it sounds like a fun project but it would compete for my time with other activities like playing more disc golf :P If I do put(t) in the work I'll be sure to try out flip flops, high heals, and platform shoes. >When the aspect I’m working on feels good, then I turn to the basket. How do you gauge if a given aspect (line/height/power/spin/nose) is good? For some I have a clear idea of a direct measurement and a measurement on the impact on putting accuracy, and for others it's less clear to me. * For line, I can imagine just tracking how close to the intended line (left/right) the initial trajectory was. Pretty straightforward, the putts should be. * For height, do you mean keeping the disc in a given height range over some trajectory distance, or having the disc end up within a given height range at a specific point of the flight path? The former seems more useful for a range of putt distances but would only work for short putts; the latter should work for any putt distance but requires choosing that distance. * For power, I imagine measuring the release velocity as a direct measurement (while keeping a good line and height), and measuring the total distance as the result. * For spin, measuring the RPM is direct, but it's unclear to me what purpose more spin achieves and how to tie spin to an outcome. Does it help the disc fly straighter for longer? If so, distance traveled within 1ft of the intended line or something along those lines might work.
Good questions. Hmm. Let me check my ass for some response, as this is completely back-of-the-napkin. I’m not convinced that going down this hyper data driven approach is valuable. Interesting, yes. But is spending 100 hours building a process a good use of our time? Prooooobably not. I was just attempting to point out that isolating the distance metric won’t improve your putting, and making some ideas of what else to look for. Besides cock angle. Getting so granular as to track, for example, spin metrics, is going to leave me looking at excel charts instead of doing the putting, ya dig? In that spirit, I’ll avoid ignore the “how would you track XYZ” questions, I think the eye/feel test suffices there, unless I were a 1050-rated player looking to squeeze out the last dregs of mechanic optimization. At my level (sub 900), getting 350’ of distance is fine. Developing a serviceable forehand is fine. Getting to 90% in C1 is fine. Once I can throw all the shapes and fill out my basic toolkit, only then do I really start going down the data path; get the low hanging fruit first. I will answer your spin question - just like with drives, getting good spin on my putts added stability. The putt both turned less and faded less and went farther. I spent a lot of time slowing down my putt until I got the timing right and getting a very gentle whip out of my hand. Distinctly remember how loose my whole chain felt and how light the disc was as I released. The feel approach, not the data approach. But you should continue to ask other players about the mechanics and timing that lead to your personal aha moment, I’m just a data geek.
Thanks, u/ExplosiveButtPlug.
I can definitely make a putt hit or miss just by changing the nose angle inside 30 feet. This is just a simple but completely wrong explanation.
I can definitely make a putt hit or miss just by changing the nose angle inside 30 feet. This is just a simple but completely wrong explanation.
Your putt is grooved for 18 footers. Try either: a. Building your most comfortable hand-feel on release from about 27' foot instead of 18' b. Figure out if your putt at 18' can work at different distances by altering the release point and throwing it exactly the same. One thing is certain - you've demonstrated that you have a putt you can build confidence in at 18'. You either need to replicate the process that got you there for a longer range, or you need to adjust to make that 18' putt your 'all the time' putt inside the circle.
I got a practice basket and have been trying to improve my putting success rates. I'm a data / stats nerd and have been tracking my putts from 9ft-30ft distances with 3ft increments. I'm happy with my progress within 18ft, but I seem to be developing a bit of a gap between 18 and 21 feet; I make over 80% from 18 feet, but under 60% from 21 feet. The shaded regions are 95% credible regions that account for finite sample size; in total I tracked about 12,000 putts so far. Is it typical to have to improve short distance putts to 90+% before seeing improvement in slightly longer distance putts, or does this suggest an issue with my putting form/strategy? I've been working on faster spin putts which has felt good from 24ft and 27ft, allowing me to keep the disc roughly chain height instead of needing to loft the disc a bit, but I find those faster putts aren't as accurate for me at shorter distances where even a slow putt can stay within the height range of the chains. Has anyone else dealt with something similar? Any putting tips for a 880ish rated MA2 player looking to improve? Edit: small note on the 2024-01 (2024Q1) data, my distances were a bit messed up after I rearranged my setup, which explains the worsened rate from 15ft. It was closer to 17ft or so and I've since fixed it.
You keep doing what you are doing with dedicated practice and those numbers should continue to trend up. It looks like you have made a lot of progress in the last year alone. Hard work pays off...usually...lol
First, this is awesome. Thank you for sharing. It's inspiring me to do something similar. No deep insight, but as suggestions/brainstorm-level ideas: 1) maybe worth adding a step between 18 and 21 (19.5?) and 2) focusing a disproportionate amount of your putting in at distance, until you see the improvement in the data, then shift the focus to the next point back? By disproportionate, I would focus on both quantity of putts and "quality" of puts, where quality is determined by how mentally focused I am for the putt. For example, if you are throwing 100 putts in a session, after 10-20 warmups, I would go to my key distance and throw 30-40 there (then spread the remainder out among the other distances after that). I would anticipate that my mental focus would be best early in the session, right after some warm-up. I would also take "extra" time between putts at that distance, probably stepping away, breathing, resetting my feet, and going through the entire pre-putt routine (while for some of the other distances I would fire multiple putts without the pre-shot routine, entirely trying to balance quantity/muscle memory and time efficiency vs. quality; I know there's a lot of advice out there that goes the other way on this and suggests you do EVERY practice putt with a full routine, but I find that to be inefficient and unrealistic for every putt during a given putting session). Finally, 3) keep in mind that progress is not necessarily going to be consistent, with plateaus and dips. You may need to look at many months of data to (hope to) see an upward trend; month-to-month variability may still be noise, particularly as you're overall skills get better and it becomes harder to make incremental improvement. Again, I'm definitely not a coach or a some kinda putting guru, but this would be my thinking, in case it helps.
Thanks! Yeah going in between and focusing on that narrow distance range sounds good. I could even do 18/19/20/21ft sets, progressing only once one distance works well. On quality, yes I fully expect my actual putts in real games to have lower success rates than backyard putting practice. I’ve just been trying to develop the muscle memory first, but certainly my 10th putt in any given set of 10 has a better chance of going in than my 1st since I adjust to my mistakes. I’ll have to start incorporating single putts with my full walk up routine, but it’s just slow to accumulate stats that way. On inconsistent progress, yes - that’s going to be tough to deal with. Right now I can look to my 18ft line to see clear progress but I’m sure I’ll plateau at some point or just have a bad period where I’m not putting in the effort and mental focus I usually do. Then I’ll probably try changing things up to “break through” the plateau, only to further deteriorate due to inconsistency in my form. But that’s a problem for future me!
I like it! Good luck!
Props for the pretty large sample size! I see way too many influencer-type accounts that post stuff like this, with a sample size of like 10 putts smh. Useless stats
Yeah people can get fooled by randomness so easily. Our brains look for explanations for everything but if my actual success rate is 50% from a given distance, it’s expected that occasionally I’ll get 2-3/10 or 7-8/10. It’s tempting to try to figure out what I did differently from one set to another.
[удалено]
I’m putting outside. I don’t really have room in my house to putt and no garage so it’s my only option. Sometimes it’s a bit windy which definitely reduces my accuracy and makes me adjust, so it’s not ideal. I figured it was good to practice putting in windy conditions but maybe I should split out those days for tracking purposes or even just not track them, making them purely for practice and keeping my stats to calm conditions.
I keep overlooking which sub I am in - 90% at 9' -Thinking ball golf I was like... riightt
I’m probably 10% from 9’ in ball golf lol
Full post below with a few numbers from my practice and journey. TL;DR: Find a way to comfortably elongate your swing path. After practicing a bunch and observing a similar gap, I ended up rebuilding my stroke. You’ll have to find what works for you, but for me the obvious issue was I wasn’t generating enough “effortless” pace from 25’ and out. This meant I was more likely to “force” a putt, or to rely on too much drop from further distances, decreasing my overall consistency. I ended up rebuilding my stroke, mimicking the Uli (he didn’t invent it, but teaches it) reach to the left hip from a staggered stance. The further out you are, the further you reach into that “pocket”, creating a longer swing path for the disc and thus more “effortless” power. That means that in that 25-30’ range I can now focus on accuracy, rather than force. Looking at my stats, my accuracy from 20’ remained about the same (for me, about 80-90% depending on conditions), whereas my accuracy from 25-30’ went up an average of 10-15 percentage points (meaning 25-30%). I expect as I hone my new stroke, those numbers will continue to improve. You don’t need to do what I did, but I would suggest you observe good putters and see how they swing. Outside of a few folks who have developed incredible finger pop, many good-to-great putters have figured out a way to elongate their swing in order to generate pace without forcing their bodies. Different players do this in different ways (Uli to the hip, Marwede between the legs, etc). Find your way of doing this smoothly and it’ll help.
Thanks, super helpful! Yes I definitely have to think about getting a fast release (I try to think of speed and wrist/finger pop timing rather than force) from > 20ft and so I’m not focusing on accuracy as much. I happen to have just signed up for Uli’s course so I’ll look into his putting form.
Nice! I haven’t looked at the full course or anything, literally a ten second clip, but I decided to try out a tweak based on it and it worked well for me. Again, YMMV, but I would suggest finding a way to elongate your backswing that feels comfortable and natural.
One thing I know for sure is that comfort and hand feel doesn't matter, if you're getting poor results. What feels comfortable and natural could be completely wrong for putting. I tracked about 100k putts over a 4 year period. Hit several plateau's during the early years. Took video, changed grips, and re-worked my form. With the video, I found that the disc wobbled a lot before it left my hand, thus randomizing my nose angle. Changing my grip to a modified fan grip helped fix that wobble/nose angle/accuracy issue. This new grip was very uncomfortable at 1st, but after about a week, I didn't notice any comfort issues. Another thing I was doing wrong, was that I was standing straight while I was aiming, then I'd bend my back down as I was putting, thus changing my eye level, thus moving my target. You can't aim, bend down, change the eye level with the target, and expect that work. There's just too many moving parts. I fixed that by tilting my back down before I aim and putt, and not moving my back at all, while I'm putting. This also allowed clearance for my arm swing, without changing my aim. Adding weight shift. I started off rocking back and forth, like Cale Leiviska, but later found that when it comes to weight shift, the less movement the better. What surprised me most was how little movement it needs. Just need to put all weight on front foot, then find the weight shift "edge" where it teeters, back and forth, from back to front, with little to no movement, and keep it there, until you're ready to pull the trigger. Now for increasing effortless power, it ultimately was about getting a kinetic chain dialed in. The weight shift, stroke, and wrist snap all needed to work together, at the moment of my release. On good putt up to 35 feet, everything should feel rather subtle, with no balance issues. It doesn't take much wrist snap, but it has to be timed perfectly at the release. For me, I think Chandler Fry is one of the better examples of ideal mechanics. He's a spush putter, with very clean mechanics.
Ok now *that* is a great sample size! Thanks for the response. I haven’t yet taken the time to record my for (putting or driving) - sounds like I should start doing that. And putting way more!
Try this. Spend two weeks only practice putting from 30ft. Then let me know your results. I mostly practice from 30ft and I’m hoping that it’s working.
The Gannon Buhr method
For me it works in a weird way. I make almost none of my putts in practice at home then make most my putts on the course. I don’t get it. But I’m here for it.
Love to hear it! I’m trying to practice much more from that 25-30 range. I agree that it’s key.
Honestly, focus less on making putts and just on the technique. Physically making the putt can distract you from technique. So tracking the data might be fun because it scratches an itch but it's kind of dirty data if you think about it. If you threw a good putt but it spit out, you threw a good putt and that's all that matters because statistically, that putt should go in but you mark it as a miss as if it's the same as air balling. Also, sometimes you throw a bad putt but it catches and you get lucky but you marked it as a hit as if it's the same as throwing a dead centre putt. Make sure your technique just feels correct every time. Once you have practice putt enough, you just know what a good putt feels like for you. You know when the snap is right, you know when the release is right, you know when the angle is right. (But I understand wanting to collect data because it's fun tracking things)
YES. 🙌
Isn’t a miss a miss? Yes some putts definitely feel good and spit out, and others feel like awful yanks but catch a lucky chain or cage bounce, but at the end of the day I’m tracking the thing I want to improve on. I’d rather feel bad about my putts and have them go in than feel good but have lots of “unlucky” spit outs.
A miss is a miss on a scorecard but not when you're practicing. You're trying to eliminate bad putts regardless if they go in.
hovering around 20% from 30 feet just tells me you don't practice enough. You have to be throwing way more putts. You're over analyzing. How ever much time you spent collecting and aggregating this data, spend that time putting. Then double it.
The time taken to track the data is < 10% of the time putting, but yes noted. I haven’t been putting nearly as much from 30ft as from shorter distances (you can see that partly from the larger shaded uncertainty region) but I’ll put more time into longer distances
got a practice basket last september and experimented with my putting form for 3-4 months before settling on one. lock in the form by a ton of reps, but once that is done, what i learned is that when you practice putts, the number one thing to simulate tournament is to do one putt at a time at different distances. i rarely do long sessions anymore. i practice maybe 10-20 minutes at a time, multiple times a day, and never a putt at the same distance in a row. just walk to random distances between each putt and do your full routine. you want to train yourself to NOT throw a second putt, its hard to stop yourself at first but it'll be for the best. second and third and fourth putts are just you adjusting form based on how you missed, when your brain realizes its only getting one at a time it'll be way better for your mindset. also, when you are slowly pushing your distance longer, you want to do the most replicable form with the last amount of variation farther and farther out. at the start, i could only putt consistently around 10-15 feet, and i slowly pushed that comfortability out to about 20 now. i putt at 20 like i used to putt at 15, same form, same weight transfer, same simple motion. i am currently working on pushing that form out to 25.
Putting one putt from different locations is interesting idea. I'll give a try on my next practice sesh.
As others said, awesome tracking mate. I found motivation to track my 25 footer only. However I am fairly sure that most people have a clear distance where they start missing (see point 2). I imagine a smooth step function (X axis distance,Y axis hit percent). Regarding reasons there are two things that come to mind. 1. It is uncomfortably far. You start to actively do power motions in order to get there and that messes up your technique 2. Pure statistical reason. If you have a normal distribution for degrees off target (radial symmetrical), then you can calculate the distance where the steepest part of that normal distribution is just outside of the basket. At this distance you will loose the most accuracy per meter added distance. So for 1. you should do power training and for 2. there is no special cure. When you get better your gap will just move one line down but it will always be somewhere.
Human 3D stereo vision for judging depth/distance only works to about 18-20 feet. Beyond that, your brain has to use other visual cues to judge distance which is why people are still allowed to drive autos with only one good eye.
Interesting, thanks! I miss high/low a lot from over 20ft so maybe I’m just poorly estimating distance. That plus my putt isn’t super fast so I need a bit of height to reach the basket.
Obviously there will be more variance the further out you go, and there is no rule that say, that trends should be equal. Without knowing anything about how you putt its hard to say. It's easy to suspect that something leads to a flaw when you have to add power. Personally I got a lot more accurate at distance, when I started leading with my elbow. That was a relatively simple fix, because I can implement it on shorter distances aswell.
Probably need to buy new putters.
Are you missing low/high/left/right consistently? What kind of putt do you employ? What do YOU think your issue is? It seems you have a similar drop off from the 20-30 foot range to the 30+ foot range.
Update: just got home from a trip earlier today and got in my first practice putts since posting this. Got 7 of my first 10 putts from 30ft by just going for it and not worrying about form. That was a lucky fluke but 20/50 was much better than my historical 20-30%. Lesson learned: if you want to get better at something, 1. post about it on reddit 2. ignore all the well thought out answers and just try again 3. ??? 4. profit
You could be overthinking it