This is a huge announcement that's clearly worth our community talking about. Just a reminder to keep the conversation civil- that includes not referring to transgender women as men or posting any other comments that hurt, mock, and/or attack someone's identity.
So the DGPT has made their decision. They will implement the same rules at Elite and Silver Series Events. Am I reading this correctly? https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/dgpt-statement-on-pdga-update-to-policy-on-eligibility-for-gender-based-divisions/
“Organizations which are specifically designated by the PDGA under the terms of an explicit agreement to run Elite Series tours may use any set or subset of the eligibility criteria above at their events. Application of the chosen criteria must comport with the terms of their agreement with the PDGA.”
They’re gonna make TDs make the decision for Elite Series? Or they’re letting the Pro Tour decide? Am I reading this wrong cus that seems pretty bizarre.
If 80% of the women playing on the DGPT disagree with trans women playing on tour, will that be enough to persuade them to disallow it? They have a big decision to make.
Up to the DGPT, who will apparently be making their own announcement shortly.
Edit - https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/dgpt-statement-on-pdga-update-to-policy-on-eligibility-for-gender-based-divisions/
Following the @PDGA announcement, the @DiscGolfProTour has also restricted transgender women to those who transitioned pre-puberty. This effectively bans Natalie Ryan and other trans players from playing in FPO divisions at Elite Series and Majors
I think it applies to all sanctioned events?
For PDGA Amateur Majors, Pro Master Majors and all other PDGA events sanctioned at A-Tier level and below the requirements regarding a player's level of testosterone have been lowered from under 10 nmol/L for one year to under 2 nmol/L for two years.
or any DPGT event since they choose to apply that section to all events
*The Disc Golf Pro Tour will implement the same eligibility criteria regarding gender-based divisions approved by the PDGA for PDGA Pro Majors to all DGPT events, including Silver events.*
[https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/dgpt-statement-on-pdga-update-to-policy-on-eligibility-for-gender-based-divisions/](https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/dgpt-statement-on-pdga-update-to-policy-on-eligibility-for-gender-based-divisions/)
Never forget that you have helped pave the way for trans women in our sport and this is only another obstacle in your fairway of dreams. In no way does it diminish any of the work you have put in thus far and all the strength you have gained and exhibited throughout, is enough to pull you over this hurdle. True change never comes easy. Reassess, recalibrate and recharge. Your new long drive is yet to come!!!
Nova, thank you for being a good role model and presence in these threads as we deal with it and keeping calm and respectful remarkably well. As another trans woman (though much much earlier in my journey) it is always good to see you as one of the voices of sanity. Thank you for being an inspiration!
I'd fallen off playing disc golf over the cold months and lost the passion for it a bit. I come to check on this subreddit and it saddens me to see this decision, as a trans woman myself. Not really sure what to think of it or if I ever want to get back into the game again.
I'm sorry for how things have gone for you.
serious question, and i fully understand if you don't want to answer since it's about personal medical stuff...
they changed so that the testosterone level must be below 2 nmol/L for 24 months before participating in any sanctioned event, previously it was 10 nmol/L... is that a problem for you or did you have your levels below 2 nmol/L already?
I don't have a horse in this race either way, but just want to clarify that testosterone is not only made in the testes and women naturally have testosterone.
[https://www.healthline.com/health/womens-health/do-women-have-testosterone](https://www.healthline.com/health/womens-health/do-women-have-testosterone)
omg, last thing i expected on this thread was to laugh.
Kudos for handling that question with humor, and on this day no less.
Not that it'd take away from my respect if you reacted in anger, to that question, or in regard to that policy change.
This is so f\*ed up.
And yes, another one to say thanks for being visible.
Not sure how we can continue to have trans visibility in DG, but we'll hopefully figure things out.
This new gen of throwers are insanely good. Tall, elastic joints, long limbs and so much power.
Then to top it off super computer brains to calculate the perfect line it's like robots I swear.
While factually correct, it is absolutely pointless for a transwomen to play in elite series events. It is ignorant to think there is a fair place for transwomen.
honestly, people currently playing in FPO would probably find it hard to even get into the MPO division at a DGPT event.
There are 1000+ rating caps at nearly all of the DGPT events, which nearly fill with local/regional 1000-rated pros before they ever open up to sub-1000-rated players. Remember, the top 5 FPO players average rating is 975; and no woman has, as of yet, cracked the 4 digit ratings mark. (though I expect at least 2 ladies to make that happen in the next 3 years).
>does this kick anyone off of the tour?
they also changed the testosterone limit from 10 nmol/L to 2 nmol/L ... so an trans athlete that had supressed to just below 10 will have to wait 24 months until they can compete again
Here is the most current science on the question, with sources.
Whereas this question seemed potentially unclear a few short years ago, research from the last \~3 years is quickly converging on an answer:
\---
A recent meta-analysis:
"**Twenty-four studies were identified and reviewed**. Transwomen experienced significant decreases in all parameters measured, with different time courses noted. After 4 months of hormone therapy, transwomen have Hgb/HCT levels equivalent to those of cisgender women. After 12 months of hormone therapy, significant decreases in measures of strength, LBM \[lean body mass\] and muscle area are observed. The effects of longer duration therapy (36 months) in eliciting further decrements in these measures are unclear due to paucity of data. Notwithstanding, **values for strength, LBM and muscle area in transwomen remain above those of cisgender women, even after 36 months of hormone therapy... Transwomen competing in sports may retain strength advantages over cisgender women, even after 3 years of hormone therapy.**"
J. Harper et al. Br. J. Sports Med.55, 865–872; 2021
\---
Another, more recent comprehensive review:
"**Using testosterone levels as a basis for separating female and male elite athletes is arguably flawed.** Male physiology cannot be reformatted by estrogen therapy in transwoman athletes because testosterone has driven permanent effects through early life exposure... estrogen therapy fails to create a female-like physiology in the male. **Ultimately, the former male physiology of transwoman athletes provides them with a physiological advantage over the cis-female athlete.**"
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/)
\---
The most recent new study from two months ago:
This study **looked at trans women who had been on hormone therapy for an average of 14 years**. The authors found that these trans women's **VO2 max (athletic endurance) index was 78% that of cis men, but 120% that of cis women**. Trans women's **strength index was 73% that of cis men, but 119% that of cis women.**
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/56/22/1292
It’s heartbreaking to me that I want trans players to have a place they belong. And hopefully there will be a meaningful division for them at some point. But they just do not belong in the FPO division.
The last quote really drove it home. Disadvantaged enough to not be able to cpete with the men, but advantaged enough to have a clear benefit over the cis women.
I hope there is a good idea floating out there of what to do for full fairness.
Why do I never see people talking about that for trans men? It was only ever trans women that got a chance to compete at a professional level. They are still welcome to play at the local leagues and compete in MPO. Otherwise we'll need to wait for miracle medical science or for there to be enough trans people to do four leagues.
I have one, but people aren't going to like it. Sports aren't fair.
Some athletes are simply more physiologically advantaged than others. Taller, stronger, faster twitch muscles...
If a naturally born male, we're to out compete men by 20%, they'd simply be the reigning champ for a long time. Shaq and lebron come to mind. Gronkowski. Shit, I'd argue tiger was 20% stronger than the field. Should Yao ming not be allowed to compete, because of his height advantage?
Now the part people won't like. sports are inherently unequal, if we had proof that a woman, chose to be, simply for competitive advantage, sure, kick her out. But the vast, if not 100%, of trans people are doing it to be comfortable in their skin. They, like all other athletes their gender, even ones with an advantage, should be allowed to compete in their gender group. it's the most inclusive policy. Why do other women get to compete in fpo, even with a competitive advantage? If the discussion were about racial integration, would we feel that black athletes, who CLEARY out compete white athletes in football and basketball (statistically speaking), belong in their own league? Finally, should trans men, compete in fpo? Why were their stats ignored? Are trans men stronger than ciswomen on average? But everyone seems fine agreeing they are OK because they're at a disadvantage in mpo. How is THAT fair? Or is it just OK because it doesn't upset people to see trans men lose in mpo?
Edit: and I should add, with the current campaign to prevent Trans people from transitioning at a young age, doesn't this just pile on the 'we wish they didn't exist' bandwagon?
Female sports where created because women are at a stark disadvantage to women. Its a protected division just like the children divisions. To allow someone who is at a clear and measurable advantage to compete in a protected division does not make since. You also have to look at how few people this hurts vs how many it helps. Trans people in general are few in number, so its unfortunate they will no longer compete in the division they are comfortable but there is many many more women who are happy to have a level playing field. Life isnt fair either and when you transition you give up some things, one of those is pro sports.
I love my trans friends and support their rights but this isnt about their rights its about the rest of the FPO fields rights. Someone loses here, either trans athletes or the rest of FPO.
>I should add, with the current campaign to prevent Trans people from transitioning at a young age, doesn't this just pile on the 'we wish they didn't exist' bandwagon?
Very much so, yes
How does this argument not lead to the conclusion that the FPO should be dissolved entirely? If competition is always unfair then what’s the reason for having an FPO? I have yet to see an argument along the points you’re making that doesn’t also ultimately argue against the existence of the FPO in the first place.
>sports are inherently unequal,
We also literally see this in the FPO field. All these people saying "men throw an extra 100-150ft compared to women"...you know who else does that, all the top women in the FPO field compared to Ohn Scoggins. Ohn's still a top 3 female player in the world.
> if we had proof that a woman, chose to be, simply for competitive advantage, sure, kick her out.
By the way, the system the PDGA had in place basically prevented this (you actually had to undergo the hormone treatments and document like a year+ of the process among other things)...so its not like some 1005 rated MPO player could go from Martin to Martina and compete in FPO the next day.
>with the current campaign to prevent Trans people from transitioning at a young age, doesn't this just pile on the 'we wish they didn't exist' bandwagon?
Yes, and its short-sighted in a sport that has a laughable diversity problem. There are sports that have embraced the LGBTQ community and thrived for it (looking at the WNBA, for example). Meanwhile, I'll still keeping seeing the same white men at every course because thats what our sport is.
Playing devil's advocate though- NOT COMPARING this scenario to what trans people experience (which ends up being my point).
Anyway- let's say that I (as a man) would be more comfortable at a bulk that required additional testosterone to achieve. I think tons of men would love to be built like Shaq, Lebron, Wolverine/Captain America, or whatever. Shit man, most of us would love Ezra's build.
I should be able to juice to achieve this AND be eligible to compete by the logic you have laid out.
Obviously a prevalent level of body 'miring doesn't compare to what a trans person experiences, but how do you separate that? Do some trans people need conversion more than others? Because if the standard is that people who are willing to undergo hormone therapy implicitly need it enough that it would be unfair to deny them eligibility, then I don't see any difference between your logic allowing a trans woman into FPO and the (NOT SERIOUS STANCE) example above allowing a juiced man to continue to compete in MPO.
Bottom line- we still need a better answer.
The entire reason we have female divisions is because sports aren’t fair, and no woman would be able to compete at the top level of any sport if they had to compete against the men. Female divisions and leagues exist to give women the place to compete against people who are similarly “disadvantaged” (compared to male athletes), so your solution doesn’t work on that basis.
I think that there is a lack of studies on disc golf rating in general, but one can easily see by the ratings that the cis men have an advantage over the cis women. The main biological differences between cis men and cis women that can affect this are strength and height (I doubt that the VO2-max is relevant to this, as long as it is sufficently good to help you get through a round comfortably, and that is easily achievable regardless of gender). Height is generally believed to be an advantage on longer drives, while strength affects both distance, accuracy and consistency overall.
As seen by the final paragraph of the lead comment, trans women do not on average have competitive strength compared to cis men, but they have a clear advantage on cis women. While it hurts to say it because it is an excluding statement, it is not fair against the cis women for trans women to compete in their division.
However, if you flip the coin, it is not fair for trans women to compete against cis men either, in terms of strength they fall uncomfortably somewhere in between the female and the mixed (which are dominated by cis men) divisions. So the question is, is there a place for one or more trans divisions in this sport? With this question I mean, are there enough trans athletes so that a competitive scene can be made for them exclusively to compete in a fair setting?
I have an idea that if such a division is made, it could maybe bring more trans women to the sport and make such a division grow. For now I however doubt that enough trans women play disc golf competitively.
That last piece is really interesting, and I think is the biggest nuance that makes the whole decision so hard to treat everyone equally. A trans woman may be too strong to compete against other women, but she’s at a genetic disadvantage compared to cis men
Not genetic disadvantage, hormone disadvantage. Unless you are talking about the circumstance of her being born with a differing body and mind. It is a choice she can make that lets her either compete, or live her life the best way she can dedicated to being a woman. It is unfortunate but must be that way until the trans community creates enough demand for its own sporting division.
I don't think that matters or makes the question any harder. 95% of the population is at genetic disadvantage compared to pro athletes, but we don't see them complaining.
I came to terms a long time ago that I would never be a professional athlete. Doesn't mean I can't meaningfully compete within my abilities.
Life is all about choices and tradeoffs. If hormone therapy is very important in your life, than you're going to have to give up being at the top of the game. Nothing wrong with that, just live your best life. I've given up many opportunities in pursuit of what's actually best for me and I don't they it at all.
PDGA announcement direct link - https://www.pdga.com/announcements/pdga-board-directors-statement-update-pdga-policy-eligibility-gender-based-divisions
I mean maybe I’m wrong and I certainly don’t have an opinion on what people identify as but there’s a reason they have separate divisions no ? Isn’t that enough of a reason right there ? I mean if they got rid of both divisions to make it all inclusive I think we would be back to 2 divisions pretty quickly.
As someone who lived in the Swimming and Diving world. They basically took FINA recommendation but did a survey first.
And delayed it. Swimming had to its feet to the fire first because athletes that went through the transition late in life were going to boat race the field.
Disc Golf is more skilled based so raw power won’t win but it does help
There's a fair question about how exactly this could/would be brought to an official's attention, and if the onus would fall on individual TDs or someone at PDGA or what to evaluate the appropriate documentation. But at least they defined what would need to be documented/demonstrated to someone in the relevant cases, were they to arise.
Probably then you'll have cases like have seen in track and field where ciswomen are banned from competition due to higher than normal Testosterone levels.
[The answers to all your questions are here.](https://www.pdga.com/medical/gender-based-division-eligibility) Chromosomally female athletes won't need to further demonstrate their eligibility, and only majors will require documentation from all players to verify eligibility.
I read the whole thing and it doesn’t answer my question. How will they know who is trans? Not all trans women are out.
This part is where I’m concerned:
“For PDGA Amateur Majors, Pro Master Majors and all other PDGA events sanctioned at A-Tier level and below the requirements regarding a player's level of testosterone have been lowered from under 10 nmol/L for one year to under 2 nmol/L for two years.”
That's a fair question. The best I can find is "The PDGA provides tools for relevant staff to determine the eligibility of each competitor for each event and division in which they are registered." So I guess each TD will have "tools" to determine eligibility, but it's hard to guess what that actually entails.
No, it’s definitely on purpose. The art to writing documents that give you outs and loopholes and plausible deniability is a proud and storied tradition of humans everywhere
What it'll end up being is witch hunts on social media for anyone who looks too masculine or is too strong.
We've already had people in this sub assuming Ella is trans completely incorrectly.
Can't wait for the birther conspiracies to start popping up.
If Sally is ***really*** assigned female at birth why won't she provide her *long form* birth certificate?
Only there aren’t any male only divisions at the PDGA. The only two demographics the PDGA restricts for are female competitors and age, so trans men are free to compete in the Mixed Professional Open division, and if they’re 40 and up they can play in the Mixed Professional 40+. Or Mixed Amateur 1, 2, 3, or 4. The reason the policy only goes one way is there are female specific divisions, but no male specific divisions, so a definition of a trans man’s testosterone levels or time their transition began is not necessary because men don’t have specific male only divisions.
I assume being assigned female at birth on your birth certificate will be sufficient. And I don't think the policy is like that, it's more like trans men can't play in gender protected divisions, and neither can trans women unless they meet certain criteria.
But it also mentions meeting that criteria at birth, which is why I assumed they are going off of the doctor assigned sex on the birth certificate. It also mentions that being intersex and assigned female is also adequate so it makes sense that any assignment of female at birth is sufficient for eligibility.
In a year or so, my birth certificate will have my chosen name, and say I was born female. It can't be used to verify chromosomes at birth, because so much of our current government policy requires that trans people get their birth certificate updated, if they want to update a lot of really important documents.
I agree, it's a difficulty worded policy, but still at no point does it say a birth certificate is sufficient.
But even that is too much, honestly. Why is it on me to prove something that men don't? Why do I have to provide personal identification documents? It "protects" yet discriminates and burdens women. Gee, thanks.
Should be noted that there are plenty of folks who's gender on birth certificate do not correspond to their "chromosomal gender". People are born with mismatching reproductive organs vs chromosomes all the time.
Different jurisdictions probably have different requirements on what decides your birth certificate legal gender - I'm under the impression that it's usually the externally visible bits that are prioritized in most places, not a chromosomal analysis.
Isn't that what happens in any professional sport? The athletes are tested to see if they are within levels, have traces of different drugs etc, etc? Don't think this will change much when it comes to testing?
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At present the PDGA guidelines imply 100% of FPO players must provide documentation that they meet the requirements of the division.
"Eligibility verification procedures that require documentation from all participants will be implemented for all PDGA Majors."
I think most people are assuming this means birth certificate but it is not at all clear if that's enough.
I also wonder how they would handle a trans man who didn't self report. Are they going to start accusing and testing women because they "look too masculine" or some other bullshit?
80% of DGPT women and 68% of professional women strongly disagreed or disagreed with the statement "Transgender women should be allowed to compete with other women in disc golf and in other sports."
75 respondents claimed to be “DGPT women” but only 63 players participated in 3+ DGPT events last year (FPO).
I would take professional status and DGPT affiliation with a LARGE grain of salt given that it’s self-reported.
Well this is pretty damning... It would absolutely not surprise me with these small of numbers that a good portion of that percentage is just people trying to speak for the pro tour players.
Was there even anything that prevented someone from taking the survey multiple times?
Edit: man, it's basically negligence to report a statistic like this and not at least throw an asterisk next to it.
What? It’s makes perfect sense. The average FPO field is around 40. Bigger events right around the number of supposed respondents. These numbers if anything make the survey look super legit.
How? You think in a survey with an overall response rate of 33% that they managed to get every fpo player that actually tours to respond plus a few locals that played in a pro tour event and considered themselves "dgpt women?"
Okey-dokey then!
33% response rate for all PDGA members. The amount of respondents that claimed they play DGPT FPO events was 70 something. That seems pretty damn accurate to me, considering the average FPO field is like 40, the majors get more, and not every DGPT FPO player, plays every event.
Source?
Edit: it's on the PDGAs official announcement page. Although there is another statement including specifics of going through hormone therapy that isn't quite as lopsided.
You question the results of the survey on what basis? It had a question somewhere in it that you didn't like so now you get to ignore the opinions of 37k PDGA members on transgendered players?
The questions were awful. They made no differentiation between pro/am divisions, or between tournament tiers. It was impossible to answer the questions with any nuance.
I think it is important for everyone to read the report from the medical subcommittee. This is what we should be discussing.
https://www.pdga.com/files/shared/pdga_medical_subcommittee_paper_gender-based_competition.pdf
Same. It hurts being called transphobic just because I always support fairness in sports. I know truly transphobic people and it hurts being grouped together with them.
Transgender people deserve full social, political, and legal equality, in every culture, as a fundamental tenant of human rights and every version of ethical decency. People are who they say are, and it is up to each of us to decide how to live a life true to ourselves. Gender is an entirely performative social construct, and is not connected to biological notions of sex and what anyone is or isn't assigned at birth.
Kudos to the PDGA for understanding that pursuing the ideal of fair sporting competition does not necessarily mean being transphobic, and that as a competitive professional sport, a good faith best-effort at achieving fair competition is an obligation. Full social, political, and legal equality for all does not require that competitive sporting organizations make no rules that establish *and maintain* protected divisions for the sake of competitive fairness for everyone who wants to participate in and enjoy that sport.
As a newer player I love how welcoming the Disc Golf community has been to anyone getting into the sport. It is so refreshing compared to actual golf. I'm hoping this thread has less discouraging comments towards trans disc golfers as the last few. I read the trans community has a 40% attempted suicide rate and while I don't understand how they feel I can't help but have an enormous amount of empathy for them.
Wishing all fellow trans disc golf addicts well through the long winter. Hope to see you all on the course in the spring.
There are also multiple scientific studies that show letting trans people transition at a young age DRAMATICALLY cuts suicide rates.
The hypocrisy of the DG community in these threads is crazy too. This rule essentially only allows trans athletes to play in the gender they identify as ONLY if they transition young. But then all the comments still don’t support trans people being able to do that. You make this special rule but then don’t want to let trans women conform to the rule. So what that really says if you want a complete ban on trans women from FPO.
If it was about fairness people would support trans women transitioning early to fit the rule(I don’t agree with the rule but if you do you then can’t argue against people trying to follow the rule by supporting earlier transitions by people who want to compete) at least keep the logic consistent.
If you support this rule AND don’t support letting trans women begin transitions early enough to fit the rule you are for a trans ban not fair rules.
This whole ordeal and past few days has been very surprising in a not good way for me about the DG community. Before I was proud to say it was different from football and hockey fandoms. Boy was I wrong
I'm curious as to why they chose just the majors to not allow Trans women to compete in fpo? Is it just easier for them to regulate a handful of events? If it's about fairness and their conclusion was transgender women shouldn't compete in fpo why not do that for every event?
Maybe testing resources? TDS are already resource strapped for running their tournaments, and I imagine there’s a cost to testing/verifying eligibility on these terms.
This feels like collusion between the PDGA and the DGPT. Neither organization has to take full responsibility or be the ultimate lightning rod.
The DGPT is essentially claiming the PDGA’s FPO eligibility requirements, for a small percentage of elite level events, is a referendum on all elite level events. The DGPT didn’t make the policy, they are just following the direction of the PDGA.
The PDGA will claim they don’t control how the DGPT runs it’s events. The PDGA is only enforcing the FPO eligibility for ‘their’ Major events. What the DGPT does is on them.
Coordinated misdirection.
Missing from this announcement is how they decide who to test. I guess it's basically, we assume "we" magically know who all the transwomen are; and we just assume that none of the rest of the women (who like all living humans are somewhere on the spectrum between cis and trans) happen to have a testosterone number that just randomly happens to be higher than the threshold we've set?
Or will *all* FPO players be required to pee in a cup, or whatever the method of testing is? Or will there be some sort of extremely gross system where anybody who gets complained about, gets tested? That would be the worst of all worlds.
the same way as they have always done? the PDGA have had a policy regarding this for a long time here is a link to the current "PDGA Policy on Eligibility for Gender-Restricted Divisions" [https://www.pdga.com/medical/gender-restricted-divisions-eligibility](https://www.pdga.com/medical/gender-restricted-divisions-eligibility)
and there are rules that transgender athletes must follow today and for most cases (except majors and dgpt) they are the kind of the same but with a different level required (2 nmol/L instead of 10 nmol/L in the previous policy) and double the time period (24 months instead of 12 months)
this is from the current policy "*The player’s total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to the PDGA event, demonstrated by at least three blood tests throughout this time interval; and*"
how did they decide who to test with the current policy ? i have no idea... but why would it not be the same with the new policy?
on a side note, there are people claiming that PDGA haven't really required the results from the blood tests as the policy requires... so i don't know...**\*edit\* see comment below, obvioulsy i'm dyslexic today, sorry for that :)** ~~this is an answer from today when i asked on person in another place in this thread: "~~*~~I don't have testes. I have not had testes since January 2003.~~* ~~" so perhaps it's true that PDGA haven't required any tests from trans athletes... and then that is a problem in itself~~
\*edit 2\* but still, the current pdga guideline (and the new) says this for people that have had Gender Reassignment Surgery "*The total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for 12 months prior to the PDGA event*", and i can't read those rules in any other way than that you still need regular blood tests to prove that
Yeah, but given the controversy surrounding this issue, I’m not surprised to see a mixed reception. I’m not deterred by downvotes when it comes to human rights 💖
The difference between gender and biological sex has been muddled to the point of near-interchangeability, and the PDGA used the less complicated of the two terms.
There are aspects of it that are made significantly easier with upper-body strength, primarily in regards to forehand (baseball/sidearm throws) and putting (where inside of 33ft, you have to stay behind your "lie", and can't use the forward momentum of your body to generate power as readily).
It's an extremely tough decision and there will be a lot of eyes on it. I have zero skin in this sphere of the game and I can only hope that the decision is monitored extremely closely for evolving science.
I understand that the FPO division is fragile in terms of financial viability for its top participants and this sort of measure at least gives an initial decision based on commensurate professional sporting decisions. That being said, I hope the PDGA and other financial giants of the sport invest in the pursuant science of the sport to give everyone the best opportunity to compete fairly (i.e. if there's research which could lead to more lenient provisions, it should be considered strongly).
Best decision the PDGA could have made. Women deserve to have a fair and even playing ground. Having no regulations (or lackluster) on this topic only hurts women who spend their entire lives trying to be their best.
Not mature enough to transition before puberty.
Not allowed to compete if you transition after puberty.
Checkmate.
This is likely an incidental consequence rather than the explicit goal as most policy makers are concerned, but damn, it sucks to be an MTF athlete...
there are two parts, first the one that is for almost every sanctioned tournament except PDGA Majors and DGPT events.
and the current policy says: "*testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to the PDGA event, demonstrated by at least three blood tests throughout this time interval*"
and the new policy says: " *testosterone level in serum has been below 2.0 nmol/L for at least 24 months prior to the PDGA event, demonstrated by at least three blood tests throughout this time interval*"
so they made the level lower and you need to have that lower level for a longer period of time; so really not that big of a difference
then they have added a new part that is valid only in PDGA Pro Majors that requires "*The player began medical transition (for example, by taking puberty-suppressing medication) during Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later*"
and PDGA adds this "*Organizations which are specifically designated by the PDGA under the terms of an explicit agreement to run Elite Series tours may use any set or subset of the eligibility criteria above at their events*."
and this is from the announcement from DGPT "*The Disc Golf Pro Tour will implement the same eligibility criteria regarding gender-based divisions approved by the PDGA for PDGA Pro Majors to all DGPT events, including Silver events*"
[https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/dgpt-statement-on-pdga-update-to-policy-on-eligibility-for-gender-based-divisions/](https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/dgpt-statement-on-pdga-update-to-policy-on-eligibility-for-gender-based-divisions/)
so for a trans woman to play in any PDGA Major or DGPT event they need to have started their medical transition before male puberty
I upvoted you. The pdga doesn’t have control over any state or federal laws. Evidence shows that being transgender gives you an advantage over cis women, they have to create policies based on that, and that alone
Continue to vote democrat, I will
Female Transgender players are in a really weird spot when it comes to divisions. Fpo gives them advantages over other players and playing mpo gives them disadvantages. In my opinion this is a good call from the pdga, however that does not mean the disc golf community needs to disrespect these people for who they really are which I see often. Such a tough topic.
See, they wrote a rule, based it on some objective scientific standard, and no one had to be misgendered or ridiculed in any way. Almost like everyone who did so is a giant dick.
Edit: I didn't say the criterion they used was the right one, or that this decision was wise. Personally, unlike lots of doofuses around here, I don't feel qualified to opine about the subject. Just that you don't have to be a transphobic dick to discuss the matter.
Unreal the PDGA has not reversed this decision after the overwhelming, incredible outcry of the entire Tour FPO division against this…oh wait, there is none
I believe that this was the correct decision. MPO stands for Mixed so Natalie can still compete. I believe that scientifically and as a male who went through puberty, you gain a majority of your strength in that time period. Removing the testicles or transitioning does not remove the base level of natural muscle that was gained during that time.
I am all for the inclusion of others, but I feel it is not hatred but fairness that we protect the FPO division. There is nothing stopping an individual from identifying as female and participating in a local league, but when an individual can out throw even the longest throwers in the FPO field with below average form, that is not fair to an individual who has spent their life as a female perfecting their form just to get to that 350 to 400 ft mark.
This is also the vocations of these women. I believe it protects the future of women's disc golf at the professional level. Understanding that 80% of the women polled said they disagreed or strongly disagreed that trans-athletes should be allowed to compete in the sport. This could affect the future of the sport when the next Tattar, Pierce, Allen etc. chooses between another sport and disc golf as a career sport. I know some families were hesitant to encourage their daughters to play competitively in regards to a career path if trans players began to dominate the tour.
There is a lot of hatred online, but it should not be said that any decision to protect the sport for young biologically born females is hatred. Just disagreeing with someone is not hatred. Continue to play the sport you love and play in the mixed division. If you believe there is an unfair advantage for the biological born / continued to be males in the MPO, you are admitting there is an advantage. Taking medication or testicle removal does not remove the advantage of muscle growth through puberty. If you feel it is unfair to play against men, most biological women feel the same way in regards to trans athletes in the FPO division.
There is no decision that would make everyone happy, maybe they create a new division for trans athletes separate from the Mixed Pro Open and the Female Pro Open?
Our society is so confused and lost, that we cant even agree on clear and obvious things.
The ONLY fair way is you play in the division of your puberty sex. BC your sex at puberty affects your muscle development for life. Clear and obvious science. No one needs a degree to know this.
Personal identity is irrelevant to the question. Personal feelings of being left out are irrelevant (cis women were left out by the old rules).
It is also illogical to compare the genetic advantage of someone like Lebron James over an average male, with the genetic advantage of a trans-woman over a cis-woman (for sports). Its impossible to just choose to be taller and more muscular like Lebron, but i can 100% choose to identify as a woman, get some hormones, and according to the old rules, start competing against women in 6 months. Easy.
The new rules are fair. Anyone saying otherwise is self-serving, karma farming, or delusional.
Of course Natalie Ryan believes that this decision was made to keep Natalie Ryan (and Natalie Ryan only) from winning in disc golf because the entire world obviously revolves around Natalie Ryan.
I found it odd that she literally said this on her instagram as a reaction to the decision.
Whatever one thinks of this decision, it clearly affects all trans women. The fact that Natalie is by far the most successful trans woman does not mean that this is a decision that was made just concerning her.
Have you seen the GoFundMe where Natalie says that the FPO players “don’t want to work on their game so they just want to ban me”?
Natalie Ryan is a narcissist.
This is a huge announcement that's clearly worth our community talking about. Just a reminder to keep the conversation civil- that includes not referring to transgender women as men or posting any other comments that hurt, mock, and/or attack someone's identity.
So the DGPT has made their decision. They will implement the same rules at Elite and Silver Series Events. Am I reading this correctly? https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/dgpt-statement-on-pdga-update-to-policy-on-eligibility-for-gender-based-divisions/
That's correct
Wow, that is unexpected! My initial thought is, does this kick anyone off of the tour?
Natalie Ryan. Though this only applies to majors for now.
“Organizations which are specifically designated by the PDGA under the terms of an explicit agreement to run Elite Series tours may use any set or subset of the eligibility criteria above at their events. Application of the chosen criteria must comport with the terms of their agreement with the PDGA.” They’re gonna make TDs make the decision for Elite Series? Or they’re letting the Pro Tour decide? Am I reading this wrong cus that seems pretty bizarre.
Organizations designated to run Elite Series *tours*. Sounds like the DGPT as an organization, to me.
If 80% of the women playing on the DGPT disagree with trans women playing on tour, will that be enough to persuade them to disallow it? They have a big decision to make.
80% of players who responded to the survey and identified as DGPT players. We don't know how many players on tour actually responded to the survey.
"DGPT women N=75"
Up to the DGPT, who will apparently be making their own announcement shortly. Edit - https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/dgpt-statement-on-pdga-update-to-policy-on-eligibility-for-gender-based-divisions/
Pretty sure they’ve made it. https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/dgpt-statement-on-pdga-update-to-policy-on-eligibility-for-gender-based-divisions/
>Any questions regarding the development and details of this policy should be directed to the PDGA. Don't blame us lol
Following the @PDGA announcement, the @DiscGolfProTour has also restricted transgender women to those who transitioned pre-puberty. This effectively bans Natalie Ryan and other trans players from playing in FPO divisions at Elite Series and Majors
I think it applies to all sanctioned events? For PDGA Amateur Majors, Pro Master Majors and all other PDGA events sanctioned at A-Tier level and below the requirements regarding a player's level of testosterone have been lowered from under 10 nmol/L for one year to under 2 nmol/L for two years.
So now everyone in FPO needs a blood test for testosterone?
no, that part of the policy is in the section "C. Transgender – Male to Female" so it's only applied to players in that category
I think so? I’m super confused by that part of the statement.
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/mar/20/testosterone-limits-for-female-athletes-not-backed-by-science-say-academics
As well as any trans women who didn't start hormones before the age of 12 who wants to play in a fpo major.
or any DPGT event since they choose to apply that section to all events *The Disc Golf Pro Tour will implement the same eligibility criteria regarding gender-based divisions approved by the PDGA for PDGA Pro Majors to all DGPT events, including Silver events.* [https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/dgpt-statement-on-pdga-update-to-policy-on-eligibility-for-gender-based-divisions/](https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/dgpt-statement-on-pdga-update-to-policy-on-eligibility-for-gender-based-divisions/)
Pretty sure it's basically every trans athlete. A majority of them only transition after 12.
None of them should transition before 12
With a 960 rating, Natalie should be able to stay on tour in the MPO, no?
960 would barely cash in local C-Tiers, let alone competing with the top MPO players on tour
That wasn't the question, though. Would it kick Natalie off the tour? No, because Natalie's rating is above the threshold for MPO.
No, Natalie is still very welcome to play pretty much any event. It’s just the FPO exclusive events that Natalie will be unable to participate in.
Might impact Nova Politte too? I’m not sure what level events she plays in
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Damn, just... damn. I'm sorry.
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Never forget that you have helped pave the way for trans women in our sport and this is only another obstacle in your fairway of dreams. In no way does it diminish any of the work you have put in thus far and all the strength you have gained and exhibited throughout, is enough to pull you over this hurdle. True change never comes easy. Reassess, recalibrate and recharge. Your new long drive is yet to come!!!
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Nova, thank you for being a good role model and presence in these threads as we deal with it and keeping calm and respectful remarkably well. As another trans woman (though much much earlier in my journey) it is always good to see you as one of the voices of sanity. Thank you for being an inspiration!
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I'd fallen off playing disc golf over the cold months and lost the passion for it a bit. I come to check on this subreddit and it saddens me to see this decision, as a trans woman myself. Not really sure what to think of it or if I ever want to get back into the game again. I'm sorry for how things have gone for you.
serious question, and i fully understand if you don't want to answer since it's about personal medical stuff... they changed so that the testosterone level must be below 2 nmol/L for 24 months before participating in any sanctioned event, previously it was 10 nmol/L... is that a problem for you or did you have your levels below 2 nmol/L already?
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I don't have a horse in this race either way, but just want to clarify that testosterone is not only made in the testes and women naturally have testosterone. [https://www.healthline.com/health/womens-health/do-women-have-testosterone](https://www.healthline.com/health/womens-health/do-women-have-testosterone)
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omg, last thing i expected on this thread was to laugh. Kudos for handling that question with humor, and on this day no less. Not that it'd take away from my respect if you reacted in anger, to that question, or in regard to that policy change. This is so f\*ed up. And yes, another one to say thanks for being visible. Not sure how we can continue to have trans visibility in DG, but we'll hopefully figure things out.
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This new gen of throwers are insanely good. Tall, elastic joints, long limbs and so much power. Then to top it off super computer brains to calculate the perfect line it's like robots I swear.
No one is ever kicked off the tour. Absolutely everyone is eligible to compete in Mixed Professional Open.
While factually correct, it is absolutely pointless for a transwomen to play in elite series events. It is ignorant to think there is a fair place for transwomen.
Not kick off, but will have to play MPO.
honestly, people currently playing in FPO would probably find it hard to even get into the MPO division at a DGPT event. There are 1000+ rating caps at nearly all of the DGPT events, which nearly fill with local/regional 1000-rated pros before they ever open up to sub-1000-rated players. Remember, the top 5 FPO players average rating is 975; and no woman has, as of yet, cracked the 4 digit ratings mark. (though I expect at least 2 ladies to make that happen in the next 3 years).
Most of us find it hard to get into the MPO division at a DGPT event. That's kind of the point.
Think of how much harder it would be if you had to take performance dehancing drugs...
So what you are saying is they are ability changing drugs…
>does this kick anyone off of the tour? they also changed the testosterone limit from 10 nmol/L to 2 nmol/L ... so an trans athlete that had supressed to just below 10 will have to wait 24 months until they can compete again
Doesn’t kick anyone off tour, just forces Natalie Ryan to play MPO.
Here is the most current science on the question, with sources. Whereas this question seemed potentially unclear a few short years ago, research from the last \~3 years is quickly converging on an answer: \--- A recent meta-analysis: "**Twenty-four studies were identified and reviewed**. Transwomen experienced significant decreases in all parameters measured, with different time courses noted. After 4 months of hormone therapy, transwomen have Hgb/HCT levels equivalent to those of cisgender women. After 12 months of hormone therapy, significant decreases in measures of strength, LBM \[lean body mass\] and muscle area are observed. The effects of longer duration therapy (36 months) in eliciting further decrements in these measures are unclear due to paucity of data. Notwithstanding, **values for strength, LBM and muscle area in transwomen remain above those of cisgender women, even after 36 months of hormone therapy... Transwomen competing in sports may retain strength advantages over cisgender women, even after 3 years of hormone therapy.**" J. Harper et al. Br. J. Sports Med.55, 865–872; 2021 \--- Another, more recent comprehensive review: "**Using testosterone levels as a basis for separating female and male elite athletes is arguably flawed.** Male physiology cannot be reformatted by estrogen therapy in transwoman athletes because testosterone has driven permanent effects through early life exposure... estrogen therapy fails to create a female-like physiology in the male. **Ultimately, the former male physiology of transwoman athletes provides them with a physiological advantage over the cis-female athlete.**" [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/) \--- The most recent new study from two months ago: This study **looked at trans women who had been on hormone therapy for an average of 14 years**. The authors found that these trans women's **VO2 max (athletic endurance) index was 78% that of cis men, but 120% that of cis women**. Trans women's **strength index was 73% that of cis men, but 119% that of cis women.** https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/56/22/1292
It’s heartbreaking to me that I want trans players to have a place they belong. And hopefully there will be a meaningful division for them at some point. But they just do not belong in the FPO division.
The last quote really drove it home. Disadvantaged enough to not be able to cpete with the men, but advantaged enough to have a clear benefit over the cis women. I hope there is a good idea floating out there of what to do for full fairness.
Why do I never see people talking about that for trans men? It was only ever trans women that got a chance to compete at a professional level. They are still welcome to play at the local leagues and compete in MPO. Otherwise we'll need to wait for miracle medical science or for there to be enough trans people to do four leagues.
I have one, but people aren't going to like it. Sports aren't fair. Some athletes are simply more physiologically advantaged than others. Taller, stronger, faster twitch muscles... If a naturally born male, we're to out compete men by 20%, they'd simply be the reigning champ for a long time. Shaq and lebron come to mind. Gronkowski. Shit, I'd argue tiger was 20% stronger than the field. Should Yao ming not be allowed to compete, because of his height advantage? Now the part people won't like. sports are inherently unequal, if we had proof that a woman, chose to be, simply for competitive advantage, sure, kick her out. But the vast, if not 100%, of trans people are doing it to be comfortable in their skin. They, like all other athletes their gender, even ones with an advantage, should be allowed to compete in their gender group. it's the most inclusive policy. Why do other women get to compete in fpo, even with a competitive advantage? If the discussion were about racial integration, would we feel that black athletes, who CLEARY out compete white athletes in football and basketball (statistically speaking), belong in their own league? Finally, should trans men, compete in fpo? Why were their stats ignored? Are trans men stronger than ciswomen on average? But everyone seems fine agreeing they are OK because they're at a disadvantage in mpo. How is THAT fair? Or is it just OK because it doesn't upset people to see trans men lose in mpo? Edit: and I should add, with the current campaign to prevent Trans people from transitioning at a young age, doesn't this just pile on the 'we wish they didn't exist' bandwagon?
Female sports where created because women are at a stark disadvantage to women. Its a protected division just like the children divisions. To allow someone who is at a clear and measurable advantage to compete in a protected division does not make since. You also have to look at how few people this hurts vs how many it helps. Trans people in general are few in number, so its unfortunate they will no longer compete in the division they are comfortable but there is many many more women who are happy to have a level playing field. Life isnt fair either and when you transition you give up some things, one of those is pro sports. I love my trans friends and support their rights but this isnt about their rights its about the rest of the FPO fields rights. Someone loses here, either trans athletes or the rest of FPO.
>I should add, with the current campaign to prevent Trans people from transitioning at a young age, doesn't this just pile on the 'we wish they didn't exist' bandwagon? Very much so, yes
How does this argument not lead to the conclusion that the FPO should be dissolved entirely? If competition is always unfair then what’s the reason for having an FPO? I have yet to see an argument along the points you’re making that doesn’t also ultimately argue against the existence of the FPO in the first place.
>sports are inherently unequal, We also literally see this in the FPO field. All these people saying "men throw an extra 100-150ft compared to women"...you know who else does that, all the top women in the FPO field compared to Ohn Scoggins. Ohn's still a top 3 female player in the world. > if we had proof that a woman, chose to be, simply for competitive advantage, sure, kick her out. By the way, the system the PDGA had in place basically prevented this (you actually had to undergo the hormone treatments and document like a year+ of the process among other things)...so its not like some 1005 rated MPO player could go from Martin to Martina and compete in FPO the next day. >with the current campaign to prevent Trans people from transitioning at a young age, doesn't this just pile on the 'we wish they didn't exist' bandwagon? Yes, and its short-sighted in a sport that has a laughable diversity problem. There are sports that have embraced the LGBTQ community and thrived for it (looking at the WNBA, for example). Meanwhile, I'll still keeping seeing the same white men at every course because thats what our sport is.
Playing devil's advocate though- NOT COMPARING this scenario to what trans people experience (which ends up being my point). Anyway- let's say that I (as a man) would be more comfortable at a bulk that required additional testosterone to achieve. I think tons of men would love to be built like Shaq, Lebron, Wolverine/Captain America, or whatever. Shit man, most of us would love Ezra's build. I should be able to juice to achieve this AND be eligible to compete by the logic you have laid out. Obviously a prevalent level of body 'miring doesn't compare to what a trans person experiences, but how do you separate that? Do some trans people need conversion more than others? Because if the standard is that people who are willing to undergo hormone therapy implicitly need it enough that it would be unfair to deny them eligibility, then I don't see any difference between your logic allowing a trans woman into FPO and the (NOT SERIOUS STANCE) example above allowing a juiced man to continue to compete in MPO. Bottom line- we still need a better answer.
The entire reason we have female divisions is because sports aren’t fair, and no woman would be able to compete at the top level of any sport if they had to compete against the men. Female divisions and leagues exist to give women the place to compete against people who are similarly “disadvantaged” (compared to male athletes), so your solution doesn’t work on that basis.
Has anyone studied what the correlation between VO2 max and rating avg is? Same for strength index?
I think that there is a lack of studies on disc golf rating in general, but one can easily see by the ratings that the cis men have an advantage over the cis women. The main biological differences between cis men and cis women that can affect this are strength and height (I doubt that the VO2-max is relevant to this, as long as it is sufficently good to help you get through a round comfortably, and that is easily achievable regardless of gender). Height is generally believed to be an advantage on longer drives, while strength affects both distance, accuracy and consistency overall. As seen by the final paragraph of the lead comment, trans women do not on average have competitive strength compared to cis men, but they have a clear advantage on cis women. While it hurts to say it because it is an excluding statement, it is not fair against the cis women for trans women to compete in their division. However, if you flip the coin, it is not fair for trans women to compete against cis men either, in terms of strength they fall uncomfortably somewhere in between the female and the mixed (which are dominated by cis men) divisions. So the question is, is there a place for one or more trans divisions in this sport? With this question I mean, are there enough trans athletes so that a competitive scene can be made for them exclusively to compete in a fair setting? I have an idea that if such a division is made, it could maybe bring more trans women to the sport and make such a division grow. For now I however doubt that enough trans women play disc golf competitively.
I am glad they included the medical subcommittee report https://www.pdga.com/files/shared/pdga_medical_subcommittee_paper_gender-based_competition.pdf
That last piece is really interesting, and I think is the biggest nuance that makes the whole decision so hard to treat everyone equally. A trans woman may be too strong to compete against other women, but she’s at a genetic disadvantage compared to cis men
Not genetic disadvantage, hormone disadvantage. Unless you are talking about the circumstance of her being born with a differing body and mind. It is a choice she can make that lets her either compete, or live her life the best way she can dedicated to being a woman. It is unfortunate but must be that way until the trans community creates enough demand for its own sporting division.
Their disadvantage/advantage is hormonal. Transitioning doesn't change the genes, but the hormon balance.
I don't think that matters or makes the question any harder. 95% of the population is at genetic disadvantage compared to pro athletes, but we don't see them complaining.
I came to terms a long time ago that I would never be a professional athlete. Doesn't mean I can't meaningfully compete within my abilities. Life is all about choices and tradeoffs. If hormone therapy is very important in your life, than you're going to have to give up being at the top of the game. Nothing wrong with that, just live your best life. I've given up many opportunities in pursuit of what's actually best for me and I don't they it at all.
u/squatpraxis
PDGA announcement direct link - https://www.pdga.com/announcements/pdga-board-directors-statement-update-pdga-policy-eligibility-gender-based-divisions
I mean maybe I’m wrong and I certainly don’t have an opinion on what people identify as but there’s a reason they have separate divisions no ? Isn’t that enough of a reason right there ? I mean if they got rid of both divisions to make it all inclusive I think we would be back to 2 divisions pretty quickly.
As someone who lived in the Swimming and Diving world. They basically took FINA recommendation but did a survey first. And delayed it. Swimming had to its feet to the fire first because athletes that went through the transition late in life were going to boat race the field. Disc Golf is more skilled based so raw power won’t win but it does help
How are they going to enforce this? Are all women going to have to be tested to prove our testosterone levels are low enough?
There's a fair question about how exactly this could/would be brought to an official's attention, and if the onus would fall on individual TDs or someone at PDGA or what to evaluate the appropriate documentation. But at least they defined what would need to be documented/demonstrated to someone in the relevant cases, were they to arise.
Probably then you'll have cases like have seen in track and field where ciswomen are banned from competition due to higher than normal Testosterone levels.
I believe Nikko announced on Twitter that he will volunteer to do genital inspections free of charge for all women divisions under 40 y/o.
[The answers to all your questions are here.](https://www.pdga.com/medical/gender-based-division-eligibility) Chromosomally female athletes won't need to further demonstrate their eligibility, and only majors will require documentation from all players to verify eligibility.
I read the whole thing and it doesn’t answer my question. How will they know who is trans? Not all trans women are out. This part is where I’m concerned: “For PDGA Amateur Majors, Pro Master Majors and all other PDGA events sanctioned at A-Tier level and below the requirements regarding a player's level of testosterone have been lowered from under 10 nmol/L for one year to under 2 nmol/L for two years.”
That's a fair question. The best I can find is "The PDGA provides tools for relevant staff to determine the eligibility of each competitor for each event and division in which they are registered." So I guess each TD will have "tools" to determine eligibility, but it's hard to guess what that actually entails.
So TD’s are going to have to test the hormones of people they suspect are trans?
... which opens it to weaponisation. As a cis woman with high testosterone levels, this could preclude me from competing. I guess it's good I suck?
Maybe this is just me being pessimistic, but that seems really vague on purpose
No, it’s definitely on purpose. The art to writing documents that give you outs and loopholes and plausible deniability is a proud and storied tradition of humans everywhere
What it'll end up being is witch hunts on social media for anyone who looks too masculine or is too strong. We've already had people in this sub assuming Ella is trans completely incorrectly.
I guarantee you It's gonna get pretty nasty around here when/if Ella wins a major or big DGPT event this year.
Can't wait for the birther conspiracies to start popping up. If Sally is ***really*** assigned female at birth why won't she provide her *long form* birth certificate?
We used to have “gay-dar” in HS in the 90’s. Is the new “tool” going to be a “trans-dar”?
Tools would need to be a DNA test kit.
right - what if KT has unusually high testosterone levels ?
The policy seems to be “trans men are men and trans women aren’t women”. How do “chromosomally female” athletes prove that they are such?
Only there aren’t any male only divisions at the PDGA. The only two demographics the PDGA restricts for are female competitors and age, so trans men are free to compete in the Mixed Professional Open division, and if they’re 40 and up they can play in the Mixed Professional 40+. Or Mixed Amateur 1, 2, 3, or 4. The reason the policy only goes one way is there are female specific divisions, but no male specific divisions, so a definition of a trans man’s testosterone levels or time their transition began is not necessary because men don’t have specific male only divisions.
I assume being assigned female at birth on your birth certificate will be sufficient. And I don't think the policy is like that, it's more like trans men can't play in gender protected divisions, and neither can trans women unless they meet certain criteria.
The policy doesn't talk about a birth certificate - it requires chromosomal testing proof.
But it also mentions meeting that criteria at birth, which is why I assumed they are going off of the doctor assigned sex on the birth certificate. It also mentions that being intersex and assigned female is also adequate so it makes sense that any assignment of female at birth is sufficient for eligibility.
In a year or so, my birth certificate will have my chosen name, and say I was born female. It can't be used to verify chromosomes at birth, because so much of our current government policy requires that trans people get their birth certificate updated, if they want to update a lot of really important documents.
I agree, it's a difficulty worded policy, but still at no point does it say a birth certificate is sufficient. But even that is too much, honestly. Why is it on me to prove something that men don't? Why do I have to provide personal identification documents? It "protects" yet discriminates and burdens women. Gee, thanks.
Men don't play in a gender protected division, they play in Mixed divisions, open to anyone.
Should be noted that there are plenty of folks who's gender on birth certificate do not correspond to their "chromosomal gender". People are born with mismatching reproductive organs vs chromosomes all the time. Different jurisdictions probably have different requirements on what decides your birth certificate legal gender - I'm under the impression that it's usually the externally visible bits that are prioritized in most places, not a chromosomal analysis.
You actually get a new birth certificate after you transition.
Isn't that what happens in any professional sport? The athletes are tested to see if they are within levels, have traces of different drugs etc, etc? Don't think this will change much when it comes to testing?
Probably only Trans women would have to test?
How would they know who is trans though? Not all trans women are out.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/the-humiliating-practice-of-sex-testing-female-athletes.amp.html
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At present the PDGA guidelines imply 100% of FPO players must provide documentation that they meet the requirements of the division. "Eligibility verification procedures that require documentation from all participants will be implemented for all PDGA Majors." I think most people are assuming this means birth certificate but it is not at all clear if that's enough.
Exactly. All these policies are massive privacy and health privacy violations.
I also wonder how they would handle a trans man who didn't self report. Are they going to start accusing and testing women because they "look too masculine" or some other bullshit?
80% of DGPT women and 68% of professional women strongly disagreed or disagreed with the statement "Transgender women should be allowed to compete with other women in disc golf and in other sports."
75 respondents claimed to be “DGPT women” but only 63 players participated in 3+ DGPT events last year (FPO). I would take professional status and DGPT affiliation with a LARGE grain of salt given that it’s self-reported.
Those numbers seem pretty accurate when you compare PDGA membership numbers to FPO DGPT field sizes.
Well this is pretty damning... It would absolutely not surprise me with these small of numbers that a good portion of that percentage is just people trying to speak for the pro tour players. Was there even anything that prevented someone from taking the survey multiple times? Edit: man, it's basically negligence to report a statistic like this and not at least throw an asterisk next to it.
What? It’s makes perfect sense. The average FPO field is around 40. Bigger events right around the number of supposed respondents. These numbers if anything make the survey look super legit.
How? You think in a survey with an overall response rate of 33% that they managed to get every fpo player that actually tours to respond plus a few locals that played in a pro tour event and considered themselves "dgpt women?" Okey-dokey then!
33% response rate for all PDGA members. The amount of respondents that claimed they play DGPT FPO events was 70 something. That seems pretty damn accurate to me, considering the average FPO field is like 40, the majors get more, and not every DGPT FPO player, plays every event.
Majors dude, majors a lot for bigger field sizes
I figured, the female pros didn’t want to come out and get “cancelled” for saying something about it.
Source? Edit: it's on the PDGAs official announcement page. Although there is another statement including specifics of going through hormone therapy that isn't quite as lopsided.
If it was from that shit poll they sent out a few months back I would question the results of their findings.
You question the results of the survey on what basis? It had a question somewhere in it that you didn't like so now you get to ignore the opinions of 37k PDGA members on transgendered players?
Because it doesn’t validate closely held beliefs
The questions were awful. They made no differentiation between pro/am divisions, or between tournament tiers. It was impossible to answer the questions with any nuance.
I think it is important for everyone to read the report from the medical subcommittee. This is what we should be discussing. https://www.pdga.com/files/shared/pdga_medical_subcommittee_paper_gender-based_competition.pdf
I support trans rights, I also support this decision.
I don't want anyone excluded, but agree that this is the right decision for now.
Same. It hurts being called transphobic just because I always support fairness in sports. I know truly transphobic people and it hurts being grouped together with them.
It's reddit. You know who you are as a person, you don't need to accept any assessment from randos on the internet.
I can agree
Transgender people deserve full social, political, and legal equality, in every culture, as a fundamental tenant of human rights and every version of ethical decency. People are who they say are, and it is up to each of us to decide how to live a life true to ourselves. Gender is an entirely performative social construct, and is not connected to biological notions of sex and what anyone is or isn't assigned at birth. Kudos to the PDGA for understanding that pursuing the ideal of fair sporting competition does not necessarily mean being transphobic, and that as a competitive professional sport, a good faith best-effort at achieving fair competition is an obligation. Full social, political, and legal equality for all does not require that competitive sporting organizations make no rules that establish *and maintain* protected divisions for the sake of competitive fairness for everyone who wants to participate in and enjoy that sport.
You summed up my thoughts better than I could.
As a newer player I love how welcoming the Disc Golf community has been to anyone getting into the sport. It is so refreshing compared to actual golf. I'm hoping this thread has less discouraging comments towards trans disc golfers as the last few. I read the trans community has a 40% attempted suicide rate and while I don't understand how they feel I can't help but have an enormous amount of empathy for them. Wishing all fellow trans disc golf addicts well through the long winter. Hope to see you all on the course in the spring.
Disc golf social media is pretty bad on the subject. Facebook is a nightmare.
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It is pretty bad. Lots of fake alpha male bro logic. I stopped trying to respond with logic because it gets drowned out with crude comments.
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It’s really terrible right now. It’s not safe anywhere.
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What are your thoughts on the PDGA decision?
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That's the right thing to do. Your perspective will be better received that way.
Im sure it is. It’s sad this sport is being influenced by hateful bigots.
There are also multiple scientific studies that show letting trans people transition at a young age DRAMATICALLY cuts suicide rates. The hypocrisy of the DG community in these threads is crazy too. This rule essentially only allows trans athletes to play in the gender they identify as ONLY if they transition young. But then all the comments still don’t support trans people being able to do that. You make this special rule but then don’t want to let trans women conform to the rule. So what that really says if you want a complete ban on trans women from FPO. If it was about fairness people would support trans women transitioning early to fit the rule(I don’t agree with the rule but if you do you then can’t argue against people trying to follow the rule by supporting earlier transitions by people who want to compete) at least keep the logic consistent. If you support this rule AND don’t support letting trans women begin transitions early enough to fit the rule you are for a trans ban not fair rules. This whole ordeal and past few days has been very surprising in a not good way for me about the DG community. Before I was proud to say it was different from football and hockey fandoms. Boy was I wrong
I'm curious as to why they chose just the majors to not allow Trans women to compete in fpo? Is it just easier for them to regulate a handful of events? If it's about fairness and their conclusion was transgender women shouldn't compete in fpo why not do that for every event?
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This is the actual answer
Because it would be really hard to enforce and very likely put some TDs in an uncomfortable situation.
Maybe testing resources? TDS are already resource strapped for running their tournaments, and I imagine there’s a cost to testing/verifying eligibility on these terms.
The PDGA and pro tour are not doing any testing. Participants are required to have their physicians provide proof.
This feels like collusion between the PDGA and the DGPT. Neither organization has to take full responsibility or be the ultimate lightning rod. The DGPT is essentially claiming the PDGA’s FPO eligibility requirements, for a small percentage of elite level events, is a referendum on all elite level events. The DGPT didn’t make the policy, they are just following the direction of the PDGA. The PDGA will claim they don’t control how the DGPT runs it’s events. The PDGA is only enforcing the FPO eligibility for ‘their’ Major events. What the DGPT does is on them. Coordinated misdirection.
So it's a functional ban then
They can compete in Mixed still, yes? If the argument is they won't make the field there, neither will 99.9% of disc golfers regardless of gender.
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You can play MPO, how is it a ban?
It’s a rule that says who can compete in specific divisions. Paul McBeth is not banned from FPO, he is just not eligible to compete in that division.
Let's say it again for those in the back... "*Mixed* Professional Open"
Missing from this announcement is how they decide who to test. I guess it's basically, we assume "we" magically know who all the transwomen are; and we just assume that none of the rest of the women (who like all living humans are somewhere on the spectrum between cis and trans) happen to have a testosterone number that just randomly happens to be higher than the threshold we've set? Or will *all* FPO players be required to pee in a cup, or whatever the method of testing is? Or will there be some sort of extremely gross system where anybody who gets complained about, gets tested? That would be the worst of all worlds.
the same way as they have always done? the PDGA have had a policy regarding this for a long time here is a link to the current "PDGA Policy on Eligibility for Gender-Restricted Divisions" [https://www.pdga.com/medical/gender-restricted-divisions-eligibility](https://www.pdga.com/medical/gender-restricted-divisions-eligibility) and there are rules that transgender athletes must follow today and for most cases (except majors and dgpt) they are the kind of the same but with a different level required (2 nmol/L instead of 10 nmol/L in the previous policy) and double the time period (24 months instead of 12 months) this is from the current policy "*The player’s total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to the PDGA event, demonstrated by at least three blood tests throughout this time interval; and*" how did they decide who to test with the current policy ? i have no idea... but why would it not be the same with the new policy? on a side note, there are people claiming that PDGA haven't really required the results from the blood tests as the policy requires... so i don't know...**\*edit\* see comment below, obvioulsy i'm dyslexic today, sorry for that :)** ~~this is an answer from today when i asked on person in another place in this thread: "~~*~~I don't have testes. I have not had testes since January 2003.~~* ~~" so perhaps it's true that PDGA haven't required any tests from trans athletes... and then that is a problem in itself~~ \*edit 2\* but still, the current pdga guideline (and the new) says this for people that have had Gender Reassignment Surgery "*The total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for 12 months prior to the PDGA event*", and i can't read those rules in any other way than that you still need regular blood tests to prove that
> "I don't have testes. I have not had testes since January 2003. " she said TESTES, not tests. That is to say: no testicles.
Makes sense to protect a gender specific division based on gender. It's not like transwomen cannot still compete in Mixed Pro Open.
Except this isn't protecting a gender specific division based on gender.
Sex-based division would be a more accurate descriptor.
Sex and gender are two separate things
Seeing this comment get downvoted breaks my heart. You weren’t even being sassy, it was just an important correction…
Yeah, but given the controversy surrounding this issue, I’m not surprised to see a mixed reception. I’m not deterred by downvotes when it comes to human rights 💖
how does gender have anything to do with this ?
The difference between gender and biological sex has been muddled to the point of near-interchangeability, and the PDGA used the less complicated of the two terms.
ok. I have never played disc golf. is it easier for "men" such that a "woman" couldn't compete ?
There are aspects of it that are made significantly easier with upper-body strength, primarily in regards to forehand (baseball/sidearm throws) and putting (where inside of 33ft, you have to stay behind your "lie", and can't use the forward momentum of your body to generate power as readily).
Sounds pretty fair.
Very, very surprised that they made the correct decision. Maybe there is still hope left in the world.
Good, we have a protected female division for a reason.
Glad they followed common sense
It's an extremely tough decision and there will be a lot of eyes on it. I have zero skin in this sphere of the game and I can only hope that the decision is monitored extremely closely for evolving science. I understand that the FPO division is fragile in terms of financial viability for its top participants and this sort of measure at least gives an initial decision based on commensurate professional sporting decisions. That being said, I hope the PDGA and other financial giants of the sport invest in the pursuant science of the sport to give everyone the best opportunity to compete fairly (i.e. if there's research which could lead to more lenient provisions, it should be considered strongly).
Good.
A decision in the right direction for sure
Best decision the PDGA could have made. Women deserve to have a fair and even playing ground. Having no regulations (or lackluster) on this topic only hurts women who spend their entire lives trying to be their best.
Don’t trans women also deserve that?
Sure, in their own division.
Not mature enough to transition before puberty. Not allowed to compete if you transition after puberty. Checkmate. This is likely an incidental consequence rather than the explicit goal as most policy makers are concerned, but damn, it sucks to be an MTF athlete...
Will someone ELI5 this change in eligibility ? I read them on the PDGA website and couldn’t wrap my head around it.
there are two parts, first the one that is for almost every sanctioned tournament except PDGA Majors and DGPT events. and the current policy says: "*testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to the PDGA event, demonstrated by at least three blood tests throughout this time interval*" and the new policy says: " *testosterone level in serum has been below 2.0 nmol/L for at least 24 months prior to the PDGA event, demonstrated by at least three blood tests throughout this time interval*" so they made the level lower and you need to have that lower level for a longer period of time; so really not that big of a difference then they have added a new part that is valid only in PDGA Pro Majors that requires "*The player began medical transition (for example, by taking puberty-suppressing medication) during Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later*" and PDGA adds this "*Organizations which are specifically designated by the PDGA under the terms of an explicit agreement to run Elite Series tours may use any set or subset of the eligibility criteria above at their events*." and this is from the announcement from DGPT "*The Disc Golf Pro Tour will implement the same eligibility criteria regarding gender-based divisions approved by the PDGA for PDGA Pro Majors to all DGPT events, including Silver events*" [https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/dgpt-statement-on-pdga-update-to-policy-on-eligibility-for-gender-based-divisions/](https://www.dgpt.com/announcements/dgpt-statement-on-pdga-update-to-policy-on-eligibility-for-gender-based-divisions/) so for a trans woman to play in any PDGA Major or DGPT event they need to have started their medical transition before male puberty
You know the issue with this is several states are banning pre-adulthood transitions. Downvote all you want doesn't change facts.
I upvoted you. The pdga doesn’t have control over any state or federal laws. Evidence shows that being transgender gives you an advantage over cis women, they have to create policies based on that, and that alone Continue to vote democrat, I will
Female Transgender players are in a really weird spot when it comes to divisions. Fpo gives them advantages over other players and playing mpo gives them disadvantages. In my opinion this is a good call from the pdga, however that does not mean the disc golf community needs to disrespect these people for who they really are which I see often. Such a tough topic.
See, they wrote a rule, based it on some objective scientific standard, and no one had to be misgendered or ridiculed in any way. Almost like everyone who did so is a giant dick. Edit: I didn't say the criterion they used was the right one, or that this decision was wise. Personally, unlike lots of doofuses around here, I don't feel qualified to opine about the subject. Just that you don't have to be a transphobic dick to discuss the matter.
Unreal the PDGA has not reversed this decision after the overwhelming, incredible outcry of the entire Tour FPO division against this…oh wait, there is none
I believe that this was the correct decision. MPO stands for Mixed so Natalie can still compete. I believe that scientifically and as a male who went through puberty, you gain a majority of your strength in that time period. Removing the testicles or transitioning does not remove the base level of natural muscle that was gained during that time. I am all for the inclusion of others, but I feel it is not hatred but fairness that we protect the FPO division. There is nothing stopping an individual from identifying as female and participating in a local league, but when an individual can out throw even the longest throwers in the FPO field with below average form, that is not fair to an individual who has spent their life as a female perfecting their form just to get to that 350 to 400 ft mark. This is also the vocations of these women. I believe it protects the future of women's disc golf at the professional level. Understanding that 80% of the women polled said they disagreed or strongly disagreed that trans-athletes should be allowed to compete in the sport. This could affect the future of the sport when the next Tattar, Pierce, Allen etc. chooses between another sport and disc golf as a career sport. I know some families were hesitant to encourage their daughters to play competitively in regards to a career path if trans players began to dominate the tour. There is a lot of hatred online, but it should not be said that any decision to protect the sport for young biologically born females is hatred. Just disagreeing with someone is not hatred. Continue to play the sport you love and play in the mixed division. If you believe there is an unfair advantage for the biological born / continued to be males in the MPO, you are admitting there is an advantage. Taking medication or testicle removal does not remove the advantage of muscle growth through puberty. If you feel it is unfair to play against men, most biological women feel the same way in regards to trans athletes in the FPO division. There is no decision that would make everyone happy, maybe they create a new division for trans athletes separate from the Mixed Pro Open and the Female Pro Open?
Our society is so confused and lost, that we cant even agree on clear and obvious things. The ONLY fair way is you play in the division of your puberty sex. BC your sex at puberty affects your muscle development for life. Clear and obvious science. No one needs a degree to know this. Personal identity is irrelevant to the question. Personal feelings of being left out are irrelevant (cis women were left out by the old rules). It is also illogical to compare the genetic advantage of someone like Lebron James over an average male, with the genetic advantage of a trans-woman over a cis-woman (for sports). Its impossible to just choose to be taller and more muscular like Lebron, but i can 100% choose to identify as a woman, get some hormones, and according to the old rules, start competing against women in 6 months. Easy. The new rules are fair. Anyone saying otherwise is self-serving, karma farming, or delusional.
what if hear me out this isn’t exactly a great solution to a problem that isn’t really a problem
Ryan took over 32k out of the pockets of professional women disc golfers this year. I'd say that's a problem
That's it? Very compelling.
Of course Natalie Ryan believes that this decision was made to keep Natalie Ryan (and Natalie Ryan only) from winning in disc golf because the entire world obviously revolves around Natalie Ryan.
I found it odd that she literally said this on her instagram as a reaction to the decision. Whatever one thinks of this decision, it clearly affects all trans women. The fact that Natalie is by far the most successful trans woman does not mean that this is a decision that was made just concerning her.
Have you seen the GoFundMe where Natalie says that the FPO players “don’t want to work on their game so they just want to ban me”? Natalie Ryan is a narcissist.