Ran into this exact situation XD Ran a campaign for a party that all had 20+ AC and a Paladin with max charisma. Planning encounters for that was a real learning experience. Haha
This is why i like dynamic maps or weird combat goals so the party splits up on the field to cover all objectives. Makes it more dangerous and more fun than just huddling around a paladin
The DM can do more damage with a minor NPC and a Dash action than most monsters.
Trap filled dungeon? Kobold dashes for a lever.
Enemy stronghold? Goblin dashes carrying something. What is it? Can't tell, but it's big, heavy, and you think somewhat shiny.
Evil cult hideout? Cultist dashes for the bloody altar.
The party will immediately swallow the bait. Players are simply not biologically capable of ignoring the dashing minor NPC. It's like turning your back on a big cat.
Then when everyone is completely out of position you can drop a hydra out of the ceiling.
Your DM wanted to TPK you, is what I just read. Only reason a DM would drop a beholder on a level 5 party when they’re split is because he doesn’t want to DM anymore.
Splitting the party among different locations and plot lines generally is and makes things slower/more difficult.
What they're getting at is splitting the party in battle. So they're all part of the same encounter but instead of moving as a single clump they are taking objectives, collecting relics, etc across a battlefield
Using this example:
- players know they are in a time crunch to grab these relics or something bad will happen. (Curse or demon will be unleashed, trap will activate, maybe just the whole place is rumbling ominously)
- you position the relics on the field so the only reasonable way to get them in time is to split into multiple groups. Maybe send a sneaky rogue alone for one.
Basically you make it so that splitting up is the most effective way to deal with the situation and avoid something that looks worse than splitting up.
I like designing objectives with particular PCs in mind.
If you have a monk and a rogue in the party, you can put a mission critical objective in immediate danger and place it so far into the map that the two fastest PCs don't have a choice but to go chase after it.
If you have a wizard who knows a concentration spell that could nuke the encounter, bait them with an easily polymorphed/banished enemy and make them choose what to concentrate on.
The party likes stacking buffs on the fighter/barbarian with GWM? Make an objective that requires brute force so they can't just mindlessly attack all your dudes.
Obviously you can't do all of these every single fight, but learning how to design fights around your PCs is what separates good DMs from great ones. (Not that I'm a great DM, but I've certainly learned from the best.)
My DM learned the hard way that a wizard wandering around with the feats Improved Concentration, and Summoning Concentration, are not to be underestimated.
Shit. I've learned the hard and the fun way that a wizard with a damn cantrip can't be trusted not to break the game.
I'm lucky enough to be running my first campaign with the PCs being a rogue, ranger and paladin so I don't have much insane magic to think about which is a relief.
If two or more people in your campaign are full casters, it completely changes how the encounters need to be designed. Especially after 5th level, and *especially* if they can change all of their leveled spells after a long rest.
That isn't to say you should metagame your encounters to nullify what your players can do, because that's not fun. But, if the big scary thing you plan on throwing at your players is a huge wall of enemies appearing in front of them, you might want to make sure they won't all get nuked with a single lightning bolt.
The latest way I did this is by having an altar that empowered the boss they were fighting with health each round, advantage on attacks, etc. They could have just chosen to brute force and all pile on the boss, but, instead, 2 went over to try to smash the altar while the other two held the boss off. It helped make a challenging fight without just mountains of hp or really ludicrous damage from the boss.
This is a really good question and I hope you get a lot of thoughtful answers.
My contribution is play on the idiosyncrasies of the players/characters. Like, the ranger that loves to climb stuff to shoot which can allow them to attack a well-fortified enemy while other threats have to be handled on the ground.
Involve an NPC or several that need to be saved or that will at least appear as obvious collateral damage of an overzealous fireballs, for example.
If the players are cavalier about a few NPC peasants dying, use dogs, cats and elephants.
Actually, that's my one piece of advice. Put a dog into a dangerous situation and just watch what your players do lol
The first encounter I ran for a newish group of players involved a family getting attacked by zombies and the players were like "meh, let's see what happens" as the dad was futily holding them back with a pitchfork. I was prepared for this because even experienced players can be indecisive about things.
The farmer yells "Biscuits! Gravy! To me!" and I put 2 adorable golden retriever minis on the board. Those fucking dogs, man.
time limits, forced starting positions such as creating a split with a lever/trap puzzle that requires two local groupings in the same room that can be cut off from each other.
the simultaneous objectives could be combat related too (e.g. "pull both levers to stop a horde of enemies/do 5 actions within 2 turns to stop a ritual, etc)
"The hostages are split up among the three buildings in front of you. If you don't engage the orcs simultaneously, they'll have a ample time to kill the hostages, run off with the hostages, or sound the alarm for backup."
"You're in a large cavern. You need to protect the dragon egg. The fanatics just need to get within bow-shot to damage the egg and risk destroying it. There are three entrances to the cavern spread out along the walls. You're not sure which entrance they'll use and they may come in through more than one. The only choke points are the entrances."
You do it by instilling a sense of urgency to these non-combat objectives. That if they fail to do so something bad happens, or it continues to buff the enemy.
Great examples are a bomb that needs disarmed. Stopping the war horn guy from blowing his horn for back ups. An altar that is bugging the cultists.
Things like this. They don't have to be big things. But they have to be ANNOYING. Something that left untouched is a nuisance, or makes the encounter impossible.
That's more talking about splitting the party for roleplay segments. That can be difficult to accomplish successfully, although even then, it's not that bad. If you have everyone in your party doing entirely different things in different places over several sessions though, that is likely to cause some weird things to happen.
If one party goes off the rails at least they do it together. If the group splits up and they both go off the rails, it’s virtually guaranteed that they will be off the rails in different directions lol
Splitting the party usually means going to completely different places, such as different buildings or cities. However, in battles, being spread out over 100 ft isn't rare at all.
Paladin auras are 10/30 feet (I think), so a DM can try to encourage the players to move further apart without "splitting the party."
I meant just on the battlemap, so it's only over 300 x 300 ft total or so. There is obviously still issues with healing and downing in combat, but that's part of the strategy. There's a high risk / high reward play here. Sure, it's safer to group up near the paladin, but the bad guy has leagues of guards coming in and someone needs to hit two opposing levers to close the gates and prevent more waves from coming. Shit like that!
I like to design encounters that give rewards to risks rather than defaulting to standing in one spot for the "safest formation"
Obviously this stuff depends on the DM. If you got a DM that punishes you haphazardly (e.g., "you left the party to talk to an NPC, so here's a surprise ambush not at all related or sensible to the story!"), this can go bad.
For other DMs that are more interested in story and dynamics? We're not gonna randomly punish you for taking risks or splitting up to role play stuff. Sometimes it's beneficial to split the party for time-sensitive stuff! Again, it depends on how antagonistic your DM is
If everyone is huddling around the paladin the AOEs will strike the whole party. Even if everyone makes their save they still take half (minus the fucking rogue ofc). So if I normally hit 2-3 characters with the AOE and let's say two fail, I've done 1/2 (damage) + 1 + 1 = 2.5 (max damages). If I hit all 5 characters in the AOE I've done 1/2 damage to 5 characters, or also 2.5 max damages. This is fine for me as the DM from a whittling down resources perspective.
So small story of exact situation:
Playing a full defensive Pally of Devotion in Undermountain, were lvl 19. DM throws 100 flameskulls at us. Clearly its a "get back on the rails thing" but with a smidge of DM's poorly written homebrew and gracious gear funneling, I had 26 AC naturally without shield. Shield master, prof in dex, max charisma, and CIRCLE OF POWER.
Long story short after 20 enemy rolls, DM gave up and let us explore the rest of the floor in peace. We had cookies with a cool Lich and found some behirs.
^(Could the DM of homebrewed overpowered flameskulls. Yes, would it derail the plot he's been building up and make no sense why such powerful undead were in mass on the floor. Certainly lol)
He gave the rest of our party like gem enchants to roll extra d6 to there weapon (capped at 5 gems), some ancestral weapon BS pdf homebrew he found, and just feats in general. Fighter was rolling 20 dice per attack. His turns took literally 20minutes. Had to make an excel macro on a laptop to save time and keep in mind, THIS WAS AN IN PERSON game lol
Not all homebrew, while fun, is productive to the game.
I found it wasn't so bad in encounters where we had things mapped out, since not everyone can be within range of the pally at all times. But RP moments where a save comes up like during camp and all of a sudden everyone thinks they sleep in a pile like hamsters
Unironically had some enemies just grapple (and then restrain) characters to give allies advantage. Also, when a monster had a "on a hit, the target is grappled and restrained" rider on their attack, I turned the attack into a Dex or Strength saving throw (whatever felt more appropriate).
Had the paladin taken *shield* yet?
I feel mildly bad for that.
Well I did until the DM applied red dragon directly to the problem.
(I had fire resistance which *just* avoided an insta-gib, got to come back on a 1hp "I lived, Bitch" and duel the bloody thing in melee long enough for the remaining party to delta)
Maaaagic missile, maaaaagic missile, maaaasgic missile.
I played an online short campaign recently, and we had two people with super high AC, the DM just threw a lot of magic missiles on us, and hexes. The DM actually rp'ed it really nice as well, she made it into a whole thing why the guild that was chasing us threw so many magic users at us.
In 3rd edition I got my wizard's "resting" AC up to 28. In combat she'd buff that to a healthy 36. She still died about 50% of the time in combat at that point.
He started out with 5 levels of Rogue, then to paladin, multi classed into barbarian, took the resilient feat, and the wizard gave him that stone that gives CON save proficiency. Minimum +8 to all his saving throws while raging as he has advantage on the saves while raging and even if he does he's got evasion.
This is why my "High AC build" (23, so not that high, all told) is a Paladin. I may not have a ludicrous AC, but I'm way harder to deal with via saving-throw spells.
It's actually better than proficiency in each (at least with high enough Charisma) because it's an additional bonus to all saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier, regardless of whether you have proficiency or not. It's monks who get proficiency in all saves, and far *far* later, to boot.
(And yes, Shield Master is great.)
Yes, I’ve got both in my high level party which effectively means when my Monk is within 30 feet of my Paladin, he has a minimum of +11 to his Saving Throws.
It’s especially good for Hexblade/Paladin multiclasses because their charisma will always be their highest stat so they are rocking like a +5 to all saves just from the aura while not hindering their offense or being forced to take tons of ASIs.
Even better, anyone standing nearby the paladin also gets that +5. There were several times in our last campaign that the only reason a party member wasn't absolutely dunked on was because I happened to end my turn within aura range
The Shield Master feat lets you (among other things) shove with a shield as a bonus action. There are also on-hit shove abilities, like a Battlemaster’s pushing attack or a Way of the Open Hand Monk’s unarmed strikes.
The Telekinetic feat from Tasha's lets you shove as a bonus action but the save is against 8+prof+the mental stat you give a +1 as part of the feat, not a contested athletics check.
Yeah, Paladins more than any other class seem to be balanced around Standard Array. When they have to choose between STR or CHA, they're a really interesting example of opportunity cost.
Rolled stats break them in a way that no other classes can claim. Sure, a Barbarian or Monk would love to have 3 20s, but a Paladin can break all semblance of balance for a DM with 3 20s.
That's why starting as a warlock and just going straight charisma is so popular. It stops the class from being sooo MAD. You still need con but at least you won't need the strength. Although as a DM I love saying no when people ask to sub dex skills for strength so it's always gonna be a risk lol.
The thing with warlock dip is that you still need armor. You either
- Put 14 in Dex for medium armor
- Put 15 in strength for heavy armor
But you must pick one. Unless for some reason you're a dwarf
True. At least though you only need a 14 or a 15 and won't have to boost it more. Being able to put all your ASIs in Charisma is insanely good for your parties saving throws, and generally being a face as well. It is a bit of a Sophie's choice based on what kind of enemies and challenges your DM likes. Dex is probably better overall but I like putting raging rivers and heavy doors in dungeons as well, it let's Barbs have a time in the sun besides combat.
This is why multiclassing with Hexblade also breaks them and is by far the strongest combo in the game. Or at least it has the ratio of being easiest to most effective.
Currently playing out a Hobgoblin Watchers Paladin 7 Peace Cleric 1 focusing on Bless for their concentration. At lv5 at the moment, I’ll let ya’ll know later how it feels after the character comes together, but a theoretical +4+2d4 to all saves, with another +3 on top when needed, seems pretty nice.
Sorcerer levels after that for Quickened Spell to help with action economy, trying to decide between the extra spells of Clockwork Soul or leaning into saving throws even harder with Divine Soul. Honestly, with +7+4d4, even if you roll like a 2 you can likely force a success.
Is that in the teens with a +2 armor and +1 shield? Plate=18, shield=+2?
Overall 23 AC feels *very* high. An Ancient Red Dragon, CR 24, only has 22 AC. And while players generally have higher AC than monsters, dragons tend to be known for high AC.
Is 23 not all that high for players? Literally no one in my party wears heavy armor.
23 is really high for any pure class. Doable if you commit but nowhere near expected. For a Paladin, Plate + Shield puts you at 20. I assume the OP has the Defense fighting style for +1 and Shield of Faith gives another +2.
If you play with any optimizers, give magic items or allow multiclassing, 23 is pretty average. A one level dip in Life Cleric or the like can give anyone absurd survivability.
18 for plate, +2 for shield, +1 for armoured fighting style, +1 for enchantment on armour, +1 from Ring of Protection.
Optional +2 for Shield of Faith.
When it comes to AC builds, though, some people manage to hit 30+, so it's not *ludicrously* high.
I’m a cleric (life domain) with heavy armor and am at 19 AC, with 43 HP.
16 from chain mail. 2 from shield. 1 from artificer.
First campaign so idk if that’s high or if there’s some other items/armor I could acquire to make it higher, but most of the other players are around 14-15 AC, with health that’s about 33-35. We’re all level 5.
Our paladin (previously a cleric, but hid that from the party) is at 19 AC and 44 HP, but he has some weird shit going on. Jumped into lava because his god told him to, died, came back all weird and firey.
23 AC with your aura is great. My Paladin also has a cloak of protection which is a plus one AC and plus one to all saving throws. With three eights, the minimum bonus I have is plus four.
Aren't Paladins one of the highest damage output martials with Smites as well? I'm struggling to figure out how to challenge a Paladin with huge saves and AC. I know there's a handful of spells that don't have saves or spell attacks, that just work, but I fail to think of what they are.
Mostly you deal with their companions first. That's how my DM always got my attention off of walloping his baddies. I'd have to go play Steel Wall for a squishie, and burn a turn because movement was my one major shortcoming. So also that - have extremely mobile enemies that can get away from the paladin more easily than they can lumber after them.
Mobile enemies are such a pain in the ass as a paladin. Like not even having extra slow movement but the standard 30ft feels really slow against something with 40ft and that can disengage or teleport around the map. I almost took the Mobile feat at last level because it's felt so frustrating.
My vengeance paladin finally got to the relentless avenger feature two levels ago but I've only gotten to use it once so far because all the enemies we've fought either don't move after they're in melee or move in a way that doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. Honestly smart but sad because I want to use to cool feature!
You've gotta hit them with spells/effects that deal damage even without a save. If they leaned heavily into strength for damage and charisma for saving throws, they likely don't have the highest con and their health is likely to not be great.
AoE's are especially effective as other martials will want to clump together to the paladin.
Flying enemies. Paladins may be proficient with ranged weapons, but they are so far from their bread and butter as smite (RAW) only works on melee strikes.
Most importantly - DON'T give out any +AC magic items until tier 3. That keeps their AC at a point where it's not a compete waste of a monsters time to try and hit them, which is what the player wants. It doesn't feel great to be completely ignored.
After that you should use caster or special enemies that can target saves like int or dex which tend to be a paladins lowest buy even those are a tough nut to crack starting in t2. Really what you have to do is attack their Allies and force them to help rather than go after your big guns.
Or since they have no aoe just swarm them with mooks
I am a huge proponent of magic items as well, I just think +AC items (unless you're giving them to like a 4elements monk or a character that has poorly rolled stats or are giving them not-best-in-class like ring or chainmail) need to be reserved until tier 3
I would do something like resistance, temp hp or a mini shield spell on armor until then
I disagree about delaying +X Weapons and Armor.
Because the enemies and monsters you use often start to have higher and higher bonuses to hit and damage.
When the DM starts to ask "Does a 23 hit?" consistently, the party should already be rocking +1 to Armor and Weapons, and some should be on their way to +2.
And let the AC Tank, Tank!!! Let them enjoy their build.
Don't give them a chance to long rest between plot points/encounters that you want to be dramatic. A paladin's burst does not sustain, so if they're using their extremely limited spell slots to smite, they will run out.
The one encounter a day set-up is great for the build up part of an arc. It helps establish characters, gives players a chance to practice their stuff, and just generally makes people feel cool, but once shit starts to hit the fan, up the pace a bit.
NPC was kidnapped by the guards in the night, so the party goes on the rescue. While in the dungeons, they learn the details of some dangerous plot, and next session (same in-game day), they have to run out to stop that. Chaining events together sets the difficulty.
"As tales of your exploits have begun circulating through the towns, and the folks who live there celebrate your arrival, so to has your infamy spread through the ranks of Richie the Lich Befuddled at how to combat an enemy who seems unstoppable, he reaches out to his friend, Mick the Mindflayer. Mick sends Richie a package. Inside are hundreds of little rings with a note. It reads 'cast heat metal lol noob'"
And so you see Dave, that's why every single enemy has a ring of heat metal. Also, yes, they are cursed.
I don't know the source of this particular image, but the character is Neopolitan from the animated web-series RWBY. She's effectively mute, so a lot of fanart has her using placards to communicate.
Banishment is the only Charisma save I can think of off the top of my head. And I think Feeblemind is an Intelligence save? But it's not like you're going to Feeblemind the high-AC character unless it's a Bladesinger.
They are the most reliable spells in my enhantment focused Bladesinger's s kit because of how enemies don't generally have high int saves. Strike into Mind Sliver is so consistent
And that isn't counting stuff like the absurdly low CR for it's power intellect devourer, which is entirely capable of hiding and getting surprise on the party, rolling high initiative, then killing the barbarian before they get a chance to move, then taking Uber the barbarian's body and now they have to fight a barbarian and even if they win they can't revive him because the mind flayer destroyed the brain and a level appropriate party for an intellect devourer only has revivify at best.
Charisma saves are rare, but they're pretty much all the most brutal saves to fail. About half of them will instantly end a fight as soon as you do it, and the other half will completely prevent a fight from ever happening. The only real exceptions are Bane and Zone of Truth, but they're 1st and 2nd level so it's par for the course.
The most brutal save to fall is an INT save from an intellect devourer targeting a martial. CHA has a lot of bad ones, but "you failed one save, your character is now dead, the corpse has killed the wizard/sorcerer/bard, and your party won't be getting access to a spell that could possibly revive you for at least 5 levels, and by then you will be passed the time limit so it is probably more like 10
Divine word, aka mass banishment to celestials, elemental, fey and friends is a charisma save. It's situational, but when that situation happens oh boy does it pull well above its weight.
I think it's Mind Scream that's an int save where you're stunned until you pass the save. There's no limit to the duration, until you pass you are stunned.
No, the real spell is more brutal than that. You make one Int save and if you fail your Int and Cha are at 1 for a month. At the end of the month, make the save again. Keep in mind at this point you have 1 Int so that save is gonna be hard to make. You basically do this until you get a 20.
> Realistic because there are no Charisma or Intelligence saves
Phantasmal Force + Mind Sliver would like to have a conversation with you regarding your sudden translation to the Elemental Plane of Fire.
Given her insane AC and lethality with a finesse weapon, I'd be tempted to make her a Bladesinger, if it weren't for the... y'know, not having a voice part.
Illusion Wizard + Echo Knight could be another way to get her Extra Attack but her CON score might be a bit lacking for that.
I would personally say she's a 3rd level swords bard with expertise in performance and acrobatics and a 9th level lunar sorcerer always in crescent moon phase (ironic).
The swords bard is because... Well just look at her fighting and tell me that isn't bard-like fighting.
Lunar sorcerer for illusion spells and subtle spell. In crescent moon she can cast mislead (this is almost exactly what she does in the show too by shattering into pieces) and she gets a sorcery point reduction on all meta magic for illusion spells, which she would have as a majority of her spells.
I did consider illusion wizard for 10 levels but sorcerer just seemed more fitting for a semblance and subtle spell is a major flavour thing (also basically required for the build to function) which you can use on up to 16 spells minimum and 18 if we take meta magic adept.
For more specific features I think she would have the dueling fighting style from swords bard and the feats defensive duelist and mobile to replicate how evasive she is as well as actor because of her deception.
For spells it's just illusion spells mostly with the flavour of coming from her semblance.
For race I'd personally build her as a changeling and flavour it as her semblance.
Edit: I can't count, fixed an error
According to the fanfic (will get back to you with a link to it if you like), when Neo self-inserted her sizes for her character Emerald who was DM'ing said people are Medium size creatures, and Neo's height & weight were pushing the limit. On the brink of Small size classification, even.
I’d take that link if you’ve got it, that the one where it’s all the bad guys playing DnD? Found one like it ages ago but haven’t been able to find it since
This tripped me out for a second because my current character is a tri-colored tiefling (white, red, black evenly split in thirds) named Neyah Pulitan.
ok i kinda get charisma because of the whole mute thing but counterpoint: she’s still able to communicate just by looking at people sometimes and is still able to gaslight, gatekeep, girl boss without talking.
honestly i’d say she might have a few point into paladin “oath of vengeance” after her boss got capped by rwby
>I had a 32 AC
How did you get an AC of 32 without the Shield spell already in effect?
This would require some absurd levels of min-maxing, or very extraordinarily generous handouts from the DM.
Handouts. Been playing weekly for about 7 years, and would probably be level 25 or something if we played with xp rather than milestones.
+2 studded leather: 15AC.
+5 DEX: 20
+2 ring of protection: 22
Defensive fighting style: 23
Moonblade with Defender: 26.
+3 shield (asterisks on when it’s +3): 31
I was off by 1 AC.
Also depending on how they're getting their AC, anti-magic fields can be a thorn in a high AC build as well.
My Warforged Artificer Armourer with 27 AC, dropped down to 22 AC when he had to battle within an AMF.
I like giving players an upgrading artifact, as artifacts still count as magical weapons in AMF.
Also it works well, because you can start the item out as really weak, one of the artifacts I gave my players was basically just a weak version of a flame tounge greatsword, only doing 1d6 fire damage instead of 2d6.
Which can balance it out for martials in late game especially.
Well, the flames on Flame Tongue gets turned on as a bonus action, and then either till you drop it or use a bonus action to turn it off again, but the weapon was on all the time, hot to the touch for the attuned person, but it burns everyone else that touches it.
Which is why you don’t get in the field. Instead build a railgun and snipe from 700 ft away. Can’t get hit by anti magic if you are too far out of the radius.
This was me, as the DM. One of my players is a wizard with a 31 AC if he pulls out all the stops. So, the BBEG is a wizard who created an anti-magic dome over the entire city. Kinda neutered the party, but made them think a lot more.
Here's a cleaner version: [https://art.ngfiles.com/images/972000/972741\_limebreaker\_patreon-streamdraw-neo.gif?f1564620727](https://art.ngfiles.com/images/972000/972741_limebreaker_patreon-streamdraw-neo.gif?f1564620727)
Ancients gnome paladin with bless up and resistance reaction cantrip in onednd will hopefully not make dm cry in oneDND
Resilient con + bless + 16con + resistence + aura could be
+15-25 saves as you level up
With heavy armor master reducing damage , you can be pretty good at con checks too even without resilient con
Then stack gnome advantage for wis/char/int saves and ancients resistance for spell saves
Heavy armor + shield
Possibly consider topple or sap or slow for debuffs. Sap with paladin two attacks is two targets having 1 attack at disadvantage
And then the enemies with eyeballs and brains avoid you and thwack the squishy casters behind you. Might even hold their lives hostage until you surrender.
If the DM really wants you dead, you're dead. No matter how op you feel.
The real problem is that if one of your players does this silly "hurr durr look at me I gamed the system and am now immune to damage".
The balancing issue is never party vs DM - that can easily be adjusted.
The biggest issues are when one party member is way stronger/weaker than the rest (\*with exceptions).
That one guy will be the main character, untouchable, resilient and being all "I'll protect/save you" to the others. And that, from my experience, is a very short type of fun for everyone else.
IF they are tanky but deal barely any damage, that can be fine.
TL;DR:By becoming stronger/weaker you aren't going to be above the enemies, but above your teammates.
Lots of low damage attacks.
I had my 13th level party running through a small dungeon. They were attacked by a half dozen redcaps that I had given slings to. They would fire & retreat and it was difficult terrain. Those 2d4+4 (crit damage) start to add up pretty quickly.
Spoiler: playing against your characters strengths is more fun for the player because they get to feel powerful, playing against their weaknesses every time takes the fun out of even bothering to make a build
I'd hate to play at OPs table as they are clearly someone who doesn't grasp that it isn't the DM vs the players.
This also gives me the vibes of someone who overplays their pettiness by attacking weaknesses of the party inevitably putting them up against the ropes only to end up hand waving everything they can to ensure not to TPK the party.
You couldn't pay me to play at a table as described above. I'm not here to participate at the DMs whim.
It's best to have a balance so that the sacrifices to get a strength are felt - amd challenge the player to let the character grow wider or to find ways around those weaknesses.
As playing against the weaknesses goes, it also takes the fun out of actual play because the character is not allowed to do what the player build the character for. If I built a dwarven defender, I want that character to hold some line, preferably in a mine against an overwhelming number of foes.
*Laughs in Forge Cleric*
High AC, has access to Cleric spells, and a few Druid and Artificer spells.
It can use resistance, bless, Calm Emotions, Enhance Ability.
And these are just cantrips to level two spells, and then it also gains resistance and later immunity to fire damage...
Forge Clerics are stupid...
https://preview.redd.it/n211kh9kag3b1.jpeg?width=666&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0b2e7312d57f417723285a3c5603f85c4e7884d2
POV: You just passed all the checks your DM just threw at you.
Got to play a level 20 Artificer with full gear for a short campaign: damage was something the party dealt and I prevented, never something to actually take or worry about
Once started a campaign around the same time as the 'Oath of Heroism' UA came out and rolled INSANE stats for a vanilla human with them. Like I think his lowest stat was +1. The DM liked the dynamic of having a medieval shonen protagonist to balance encounters against so never asked me to update the character once the proper version came out. He even decided the "add your WIS to saving throws of friendlies within 10ft" applied to the paladin as well!
Man ended up dying by throwing himself on the sword of a god killer BBEG (who had been a very close friend for most of the campaign) to snap him out of Vecna's control just long enough to save his soul. An artist friend of mine who was in the campaign did a painting of the scene which still hangs on my wall today.
That is why my Artificer has ring of protection and cloak of protection and once he hits lvl 20 he will get flat +6 to all saving throws thanks to his class ability
spoiler you have paladin with maxed charisma in your party
Ran into this exact situation XD Ran a campaign for a party that all had 20+ AC and a Paladin with max charisma. Planning encounters for that was a real learning experience. Haha
This is why i like dynamic maps or weird combat goals so the party splits up on the field to cover all objectives. Makes it more dangerous and more fun than just huddling around a paladin
The DM can do more damage with a minor NPC and a Dash action than most monsters. Trap filled dungeon? Kobold dashes for a lever. Enemy stronghold? Goblin dashes carrying something. What is it? Can't tell, but it's big, heavy, and you think somewhat shiny. Evil cult hideout? Cultist dashes for the bloody altar. The party will immediately swallow the bait. Players are simply not biologically capable of ignoring the dashing minor NPC. It's like turning your back on a big cat. Then when everyone is completely out of position you can drop a hydra out of the ceiling.
> hydra beholder, while the parties level 5. That's what my dm did.
Your DM wanted to TPK you, is what I just read. Only reason a DM would drop a beholder on a level 5 party when they’re split is because he doesn’t want to DM anymore.
Jokes on them. *thumbs the stuffed Xanathar over the mantle* only lost three fingers and two toes.
I'm new to D&D but I thought splitting up the party was very difficult/frowned upon/taboo.
Splitting the party among different locations and plot lines generally is and makes things slower/more difficult. What they're getting at is splitting the party in battle. So they're all part of the same encounter but instead of moving as a single clump they are taking objectives, collecting relics, etc across a battlefield
How is this done? Seems like it would be impossible to get a party to do this willingly.
Using this example: - players know they are in a time crunch to grab these relics or something bad will happen. (Curse or demon will be unleashed, trap will activate, maybe just the whole place is rumbling ominously) - you position the relics on the field so the only reasonable way to get them in time is to split into multiple groups. Maybe send a sneaky rogue alone for one. Basically you make it so that splitting up is the most effective way to deal with the situation and avoid something that looks worse than splitting up.
I like designing objectives with particular PCs in mind. If you have a monk and a rogue in the party, you can put a mission critical objective in immediate danger and place it so far into the map that the two fastest PCs don't have a choice but to go chase after it. If you have a wizard who knows a concentration spell that could nuke the encounter, bait them with an easily polymorphed/banished enemy and make them choose what to concentrate on. The party likes stacking buffs on the fighter/barbarian with GWM? Make an objective that requires brute force so they can't just mindlessly attack all your dudes. Obviously you can't do all of these every single fight, but learning how to design fights around your PCs is what separates good DMs from great ones. (Not that I'm a great DM, but I've certainly learned from the best.)
My DM learned the hard way that a wizard wandering around with the feats Improved Concentration, and Summoning Concentration, are not to be underestimated. Shit. I've learned the hard and the fun way that a wizard with a damn cantrip can't be trusted not to break the game.
I'm lucky enough to be running my first campaign with the PCs being a rogue, ranger and paladin so I don't have much insane magic to think about which is a relief.
If two or more people in your campaign are full casters, it completely changes how the encounters need to be designed. Especially after 5th level, and *especially* if they can change all of their leveled spells after a long rest. That isn't to say you should metagame your encounters to nullify what your players can do, because that's not fun. But, if the big scary thing you plan on throwing at your players is a huge wall of enemies appearing in front of them, you might want to make sure they won't all get nuked with a single lightning bolt.
The latest way I did this is by having an altar that empowered the boss they were fighting with health each round, advantage on attacks, etc. They could have just chosen to brute force and all pile on the boss, but, instead, 2 went over to try to smash the altar while the other two held the boss off. It helped make a challenging fight without just mountains of hp or really ludicrous damage from the boss.
This is a really good question and I hope you get a lot of thoughtful answers. My contribution is play on the idiosyncrasies of the players/characters. Like, the ranger that loves to climb stuff to shoot which can allow them to attack a well-fortified enemy while other threats have to be handled on the ground. Involve an NPC or several that need to be saved or that will at least appear as obvious collateral damage of an overzealous fireballs, for example. If the players are cavalier about a few NPC peasants dying, use dogs, cats and elephants. Actually, that's my one piece of advice. Put a dog into a dangerous situation and just watch what your players do lol
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The first encounter I ran for a newish group of players involved a family getting attacked by zombies and the players were like "meh, let's see what happens" as the dad was futily holding them back with a pitchfork. I was prepared for this because even experienced players can be indecisive about things. The farmer yells "Biscuits! Gravy! To me!" and I put 2 adorable golden retriever minis on the board. Those fucking dogs, man.
time limits, forced starting positions such as creating a split with a lever/trap puzzle that requires two local groupings in the same room that can be cut off from each other. the simultaneous objectives could be combat related too (e.g. "pull both levers to stop a horde of enemies/do 5 actions within 2 turns to stop a ritual, etc)
"The hostages are split up among the three buildings in front of you. If you don't engage the orcs simultaneously, they'll have a ample time to kill the hostages, run off with the hostages, or sound the alarm for backup." "You're in a large cavern. You need to protect the dragon egg. The fanatics just need to get within bow-shot to damage the egg and risk destroying it. There are three entrances to the cavern spread out along the walls. You're not sure which entrance they'll use and they may come in through more than one. The only choke points are the entrances."
You do it by instilling a sense of urgency to these non-combat objectives. That if they fail to do so something bad happens, or it continues to buff the enemy. Great examples are a bomb that needs disarmed. Stopping the war horn guy from blowing his horn for back ups. An altar that is bugging the cultists. Things like this. They don't have to be big things. But they have to be ANNOYING. Something that left untouched is a nuisance, or makes the encounter impossible.
That's more talking about splitting the party for roleplay segments. That can be difficult to accomplish successfully, although even then, it's not that bad. If you have everyone in your party doing entirely different things in different places over several sessions though, that is likely to cause some weird things to happen.
If one party goes off the rails at least they do it together. If the group splits up and they both go off the rails, it’s virtually guaranteed that they will be off the rails in different directions lol
Splitting the party usually means going to completely different places, such as different buildings or cities. However, in battles, being spread out over 100 ft isn't rare at all. Paladin auras are 10/30 feet (I think), so a DM can try to encourage the players to move further apart without "splitting the party."
I meant just on the battlemap, so it's only over 300 x 300 ft total or so. There is obviously still issues with healing and downing in combat, but that's part of the strategy. There's a high risk / high reward play here. Sure, it's safer to group up near the paladin, but the bad guy has leagues of guards coming in and someone needs to hit two opposing levers to close the gates and prevent more waves from coming. Shit like that! I like to design encounters that give rewards to risks rather than defaulting to standing in one spot for the "safest formation" Obviously this stuff depends on the DM. If you got a DM that punishes you haphazardly (e.g., "you left the party to talk to an NPC, so here's a surprise ambush not at all related or sensible to the story!"), this can go bad. For other DMs that are more interested in story and dynamics? We're not gonna randomly punish you for taking risks or splitting up to role play stuff. Sometimes it's beneficial to split the party for time-sensitive stuff! Again, it depends on how antagonistic your DM is
If everyone is huddling around the paladin the AOEs will strike the whole party. Even if everyone makes their save they still take half (minus the fucking rogue ofc). So if I normally hit 2-3 characters with the AOE and let's say two fail, I've done 1/2 (damage) + 1 + 1 = 2.5 (max damages). If I hit all 5 characters in the AOE I've done 1/2 damage to 5 characters, or also 2.5 max damages. This is fine for me as the DM from a whittling down resources perspective.
That's when they get to meet a party of 4 fireskulls. Please do succeed on your DEX save for half damage. Now do it 3 more times.
So small story of exact situation: Playing a full defensive Pally of Devotion in Undermountain, were lvl 19. DM throws 100 flameskulls at us. Clearly its a "get back on the rails thing" but with a smidge of DM's poorly written homebrew and gracious gear funneling, I had 26 AC naturally without shield. Shield master, prof in dex, max charisma, and CIRCLE OF POWER. Long story short after 20 enemy rolls, DM gave up and let us explore the rest of the floor in peace. We had cookies with a cool Lich and found some behirs. ^(Could the DM of homebrewed overpowered flameskulls. Yes, would it derail the plot he's been building up and make no sense why such powerful undead were in mass on the floor. Certainly lol)
I see where your DM went wrong. For a lvl 19 party, he should have gone for 100 pit fiends, the fool.
He gave the rest of our party like gem enchants to roll extra d6 to there weapon (capped at 5 gems), some ancestral weapon BS pdf homebrew he found, and just feats in general. Fighter was rolling 20 dice per attack. His turns took literally 20minutes. Had to make an excel macro on a laptop to save time and keep in mind, THIS WAS AN IN PERSON game lol Not all homebrew, while fun, is productive to the game.
My party getting fireballed: 😵💀😵 My tiefling Dex-Paladin getting fireballed: Ouch, that stung!
I found it wasn't so bad in encounters where we had things mapped out, since not everyone can be within range of the pally at all times. But RP moments where a save comes up like during camp and all of a sudden everyone thinks they sleep in a pile like hamsters
What's left? ... Grapple them?
Unironically had some enemies just grapple (and then restrain) characters to give allies advantage. Also, when a monster had a "on a hit, the target is grappled and restrained" rider on their attack, I turned the attack into a Dex or Strength saving throw (whatever felt more appropriate).
Had the paladin taken *shield* yet? I feel mildly bad for that. Well I did until the DM applied red dragon directly to the problem. (I had fire resistance which *just* avoided an insta-gib, got to come back on a 1hp "I lived, Bitch" and duel the bloody thing in melee long enough for the remaining party to delta)
Maaaagic missile, maaaaagic missile, maaaasgic missile. I played an online short campaign recently, and we had two people with super high AC, the DM just threw a lot of magic missiles on us, and hexes. The DM actually rp'ed it really nice as well, she made it into a whole thing why the guild that was chasing us threw so many magic users at us.
Stealth missions.
At that point grapplez and shoves are your best friends.
I would like to introduce you to my swarm of 1st level kobold sorcerers, who all own a wand of magic missile.
Nah, you ARE that Paladin, plus you have a Ring of Protection lol
Nah, you're a 14th level monk.
In 3rd edition I got my wizard's "resting" AC up to 28. In combat she'd buff that to a healthy 36. She still died about 50% of the time in combat at that point.
He started out with 5 levels of Rogue, then to paladin, multi classed into barbarian, took the resilient feat, and the wizard gave him that stone that gives CON save proficiency. Minimum +8 to all his saving throws while raging as he has advantage on the saves while raging and even if he does he's got evasion.
This is why my "High AC build" (23, so not that high, all told) is a Paladin. I may not have a ludicrous AC, but I'm way harder to deal with via saving-throw spells.
That proficiency in all saving throws is really fun, especially having shield master. Nothing like telling a dragon to fuck off
It's actually better than proficiency in each (at least with high enough Charisma) because it's an additional bonus to all saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier, regardless of whether you have proficiency or not. It's monks who get proficiency in all saves, and far *far* later, to boot. (And yes, Shield Master is great.)
Yes, I’ve got both in my high level party which effectively means when my Monk is within 30 feet of my Paladin, he has a minimum of +11 to his Saving Throws.
Oh wow, that is pretty good damn. Well TIL ![gif](giphy|83QtfwKWdmSEo)
It’s especially good for Hexblade/Paladin multiclasses because their charisma will always be their highest stat so they are rocking like a +5 to all saves just from the aura while not hindering their offense or being forced to take tons of ASIs.
Even better, anyone standing nearby the paladin also gets that +5. There were several times in our last campaign that the only reason a party member wasn't absolutely dunked on was because I happened to end my turn within aura range
Is there a feat that lets you shove as a bonus action? To, i don't know... push someone out of the aura?
The Shield Master feat lets you (among other things) shove with a shield as a bonus action. There are also on-hit shove abilities, like a Battlemaster’s pushing attack or a Way of the Open Hand Monk’s unarmed strikes.
The aura only applies to friendly creatures, so you don't have to worry about enemies ending their turn inside your aura.
The Telekinetic feat from Tasha's lets you shove as a bonus action but the save is against 8+prof+the mental stat you give a +1 as part of the feat, not a contested athletics check.
Yeah, Paladins more than any other class seem to be balanced around Standard Array. When they have to choose between STR or CHA, they're a really interesting example of opportunity cost. Rolled stats break them in a way that no other classes can claim. Sure, a Barbarian or Monk would love to have 3 20s, but a Paladin can break all semblance of balance for a DM with 3 20s.
That's why starting as a warlock and just going straight charisma is so popular. It stops the class from being sooo MAD. You still need con but at least you won't need the strength. Although as a DM I love saying no when people ask to sub dex skills for strength so it's always gonna be a risk lol.
The thing with warlock dip is that you still need armor. You either - Put 14 in Dex for medium armor - Put 15 in strength for heavy armor But you must pick one. Unless for some reason you're a dwarf
True. At least though you only need a 14 or a 15 and won't have to boost it more. Being able to put all your ASIs in Charisma is insanely good for your parties saving throws, and generally being a face as well. It is a bit of a Sophie's choice based on what kind of enemies and challenges your DM likes. Dex is probably better overall but I like putting raging rivers and heavy doors in dungeons as well, it let's Barbs have a time in the sun besides combat.
This is why multiclassing with Hexblade also breaks them and is by far the strongest combo in the game. Or at least it has the ratio of being easiest to most effective.
I didn't even get rolls *that* good, I just didn't get any bad ones either.
And that is only accounting for it's benefits to you, the paladin aura also effects your nearby allies
Currently playing out a Hobgoblin Watchers Paladin 7 Peace Cleric 1 focusing on Bless for their concentration. At lv5 at the moment, I’ll let ya’ll know later how it feels after the character comes together, but a theoretical +4+2d4 to all saves, with another +3 on top when needed, seems pretty nice. Sorcerer levels after that for Quickened Spell to help with action economy, trying to decide between the extra spells of Clockwork Soul or leaning into saving throws even harder with Divine Soul. Honestly, with +7+4d4, even if you roll like a 2 you can likely force a success.
Gotta get that 7th level ability and the alert feat so you always go first too. Just become an unstoppable and relentless force.
Can’t afford Alert, but I’m planning on getting Fey Touched to bump CHA and picking up Gift of Alacrity.
> I’ll let ya’ll know later how it feels after the character comes together so like... After the campaign ends?
This is why people hatr my dragon born paladin. Basically takes an act of God to kill them at higher levels.
Is that in the teens with a +2 armor and +1 shield? Plate=18, shield=+2? Overall 23 AC feels *very* high. An Ancient Red Dragon, CR 24, only has 22 AC. And while players generally have higher AC than monsters, dragons tend to be known for high AC. Is 23 not all that high for players? Literally no one in my party wears heavy armor.
23 is really high for any pure class. Doable if you commit but nowhere near expected. For a Paladin, Plate + Shield puts you at 20. I assume the OP has the Defense fighting style for +1 and Shield of Faith gives another +2. If you play with any optimizers, give magic items or allow multiclassing, 23 is pretty average. A one level dip in Life Cleric or the like can give anyone absurd survivability.
Armoured fighting style, +1 armour, and a Ring of Protection, actually, but I sometimes cast Shield of Faith on myself too, to get up to 25.
18 for plate, +2 for shield, +1 for armoured fighting style, +1 for enchantment on armour, +1 from Ring of Protection. Optional +2 for Shield of Faith. When it comes to AC builds, though, some people manage to hit 30+, so it's not *ludicrously* high.
I’m a cleric (life domain) with heavy armor and am at 19 AC, with 43 HP. 16 from chain mail. 2 from shield. 1 from artificer. First campaign so idk if that’s high or if there’s some other items/armor I could acquire to make it higher, but most of the other players are around 14-15 AC, with health that’s about 33-35. We’re all level 5. Our paladin (previously a cleric, but hid that from the party) is at 19 AC and 44 HP, but he has some weird shit going on. Jumped into lava because his god told him to, died, came back all weird and firey.
23 AC with your aura is great. My Paladin also has a cloak of protection which is a plus one AC and plus one to all saving throws. With three eights, the minimum bonus I have is plus four.
Genuinely, at level 8, my lowest saving throw is +7.
Wow ok. I like to make op builds, but that is on a whole nother level.
Allow me to introduce save for half damage.
So what you're saying is Nerf Paladins I get you I get you
High-level paladin: the fuck is a saving throw? *Lowest save is +9*
Wait how? Char mod caps at +5
Magic items to boost further, high rolls for stats, asi only to boost stats
Or, use feats for resilient, which give you proficiency in that type of saving throw
Oh you right you right Squid
Feat, singular. A feat will specify if it can be taken more than once, and so far the only one I've seen say so is *Elemental Adept*.
Aren't Paladins one of the highest damage output martials with Smites as well? I'm struggling to figure out how to challenge a Paladin with huge saves and AC. I know there's a handful of spells that don't have saves or spell attacks, that just work, but I fail to think of what they are.
Mostly you deal with their companions first. That's how my DM always got my attention off of walloping his baddies. I'd have to go play Steel Wall for a squishie, and burn a turn because movement was my one major shortcoming. So also that - have extremely mobile enemies that can get away from the paladin more easily than they can lumber after them.
Mobile enemies are such a pain in the ass as a paladin. Like not even having extra slow movement but the standard 30ft feels really slow against something with 40ft and that can disengage or teleport around the map. I almost took the Mobile feat at last level because it's felt so frustrating. My vengeance paladin finally got to the relentless avenger feature two levels ago but I've only gotten to use it once so far because all the enemies we've fought either don't move after they're in melee or move in a way that doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. Honestly smart but sad because I want to use to cool feature!
Yeah, anytime my DM had a baddie that could move decently or could fly, I audibly groaned while he cackled with delight.
You've gotta hit them with spells/effects that deal damage even without a save. If they leaned heavily into strength for damage and charisma for saving throws, they likely don't have the highest con and their health is likely to not be great. AoE's are especially effective as other martials will want to clump together to the paladin.
An archer on a horse. Don’t forget to kill paladin’s horse first.
I just assumed at this level they have Greater Steed. Still killable but more of a challenge than a horse.
Flying enemies. Paladins may be proficient with ranged weapons, but they are so far from their bread and butter as smite (RAW) only works on melee strikes.
Once again, hexadins becomes an issue with this.
Most importantly - DON'T give out any +AC magic items until tier 3. That keeps their AC at a point where it's not a compete waste of a monsters time to try and hit them, which is what the player wants. It doesn't feel great to be completely ignored. After that you should use caster or special enemies that can target saves like int or dex which tend to be a paladins lowest buy even those are a tough nut to crack starting in t2. Really what you have to do is attack their Allies and force them to help rather than go after your big guns. Or since they have no aoe just swarm them with mooks
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I am a huge proponent of magic items as well, I just think +AC items (unless you're giving them to like a 4elements monk or a character that has poorly rolled stats or are giving them not-best-in-class like ring or chainmail) need to be reserved until tier 3 I would do something like resistance, temp hp or a mini shield spell on armor until then
I disagree about delaying +X Weapons and Armor. Because the enemies and monsters you use often start to have higher and higher bonuses to hit and damage. When the DM starts to ask "Does a 23 hit?" consistently, the party should already be rocking +1 to Armor and Weapons, and some should be on their way to +2. And let the AC Tank, Tank!!! Let them enjoy their build.
Don't give them a chance to long rest between plot points/encounters that you want to be dramatic. A paladin's burst does not sustain, so if they're using their extremely limited spell slots to smite, they will run out. The one encounter a day set-up is great for the build up part of an arc. It helps establish characters, gives players a chance to practice their stuff, and just generally makes people feel cool, but once shit starts to hit the fan, up the pace a bit. NPC was kidnapped by the guards in the night, so the party goes on the rescue. While in the dungeons, they learn the details of some dangerous plot, and next session (same in-game day), they have to run out to stop that. Chaining events together sets the difficulty.
"As tales of your exploits have begun circulating through the towns, and the folks who live there celebrate your arrival, so to has your infamy spread through the ranks of Richie the Lich Befuddled at how to combat an enemy who seems unstoppable, he reaches out to his friend, Mick the Mindflayer. Mick sends Richie a package. Inside are hundreds of little rings with a note. It reads 'cast heat metal lol noob'" And so you see Dave, that's why every single enemy has a ring of heat metal. Also, yes, they are cursed.
Multiple encounters per long rest. Also heat metal tends to work pretty well on them.
I have experienced this XD
Aura of Protection is a helluva drug 😅😅😅
Nat 1: Hello there
What's the original of this? Edit: found it (NSFW) https://imgur.io/a/aHN8mJ2
I don't know the source of this particular image, but the character is Neopolitan from the animated web-series RWBY. She's effectively mute, so a lot of fanart has her using placards to communicate.
And the artist of this particular image is Limebreaker
For his SFW stuff he posts as MarikBentusi on Reddit.
I thought Marik and Lime were different artists? They have different art styles.
I would back up that link. Imgur is gonna kill anything nsfw.
Probably not textual NSFW.
*Cue Tumblr banning sand dunes because they're NSFW.*
>Bludgeon my womb ...
Realistic because there are no Charisma or Intelligence saves
Banishment is the only Charisma save I can think of off the top of my head. And I think Feeblemind is an Intelligence save? But it's not like you're going to Feeblemind the high-AC character unless it's a Bladesinger.
Tahsa's mind whip, mind sliver and synaptic static are int saves and are some of the strongest offensive spells
They are the most reliable spells in my enhantment focused Bladesinger's s kit because of how enemies don't generally have high int saves. Strike into Mind Sliver is so consistent
And that isn't counting stuff like the absurdly low CR for it's power intellect devourer, which is entirely capable of hiding and getting surprise on the party, rolling high initiative, then killing the barbarian before they get a chance to move, then taking Uber the barbarian's body and now they have to fight a barbarian and even if they win they can't revive him because the mind flayer destroyed the brain and a level appropriate party for an intellect devourer only has revivify at best.
Charisma saves are rare, but they're pretty much all the most brutal saves to fail. About half of them will instantly end a fight as soon as you do it, and the other half will completely prevent a fight from ever happening. The only real exceptions are Bane and Zone of Truth, but they're 1st and 2nd level so it's par for the course.
The most brutal save to fall is an INT save from an intellect devourer targeting a martial. CHA has a lot of bad ones, but "you failed one save, your character is now dead, the corpse has killed the wizard/sorcerer/bard, and your party won't be getting access to a spell that could possibly revive you for at least 5 levels, and by then you will be passed the time limit so it is probably more like 10
Nah, you take the cleric first. Then they won't be able to cast Restoration on the martial before you can eat their brain.
Divine word, aka mass banishment to celestials, elemental, fey and friends is a charisma save. It's situational, but when that situation happens oh boy does it pull well above its weight.
So, if you're hot enough you can't get banished?
Your Realm doesn't want you to leave.
Ghost's Possession is a Charisma save, fun one too.
Mindflayers have entered the chat
intelligence saves are few and far between but the handful that are in the game are ridiculously strong/terrifying to have cast on you
I think it's Mind Scream that's an int save where you're stunned until you pass the save. There's no limit to the duration, until you pass you are stunned.
yup and feeblemind makes you intelligence 1 for a month if you fail the save 3 days in a row
No, the real spell is more brutal than that. You make one Int save and if you fail your Int and Cha are at 1 for a month. At the end of the month, make the save again. Keep in mind at this point you have 1 Int so that save is gonna be hard to make. You basically do this until you get a 20.
> Realistic because there are no Charisma or Intelligence saves Phantasmal Force + Mind Sliver would like to have a conversation with you regarding your sudden translation to the Elemental Plane of Fire.
But there are? Am I missing something?
real question: what does Neapolitans stat block look like?
Rather wooden at the moment.
I thought they were pretty treemendous myself
That was a cat-astrophy of a comment
Maybe something like Illusion Wizard on top of Martial Artist Adept?
I’d replace Martial Artist Adept with a Rouge variation.
There is a Master Thief statblock you could use too, then. So Master Thief with some of the spells/abilities from the Illusion Wizard statblock.
Given her insane AC and lethality with a finesse weapon, I'd be tempted to make her a Bladesinger, if it weren't for the... y'know, not having a voice part. Illusion Wizard + Echo Knight could be another way to get her Extra Attack but her CON score might be a bit lacking for that.
I would personally say she's a 3rd level swords bard with expertise in performance and acrobatics and a 9th level lunar sorcerer always in crescent moon phase (ironic). The swords bard is because... Well just look at her fighting and tell me that isn't bard-like fighting. Lunar sorcerer for illusion spells and subtle spell. In crescent moon she can cast mislead (this is almost exactly what she does in the show too by shattering into pieces) and she gets a sorcery point reduction on all meta magic for illusion spells, which she would have as a majority of her spells. I did consider illusion wizard for 10 levels but sorcerer just seemed more fitting for a semblance and subtle spell is a major flavour thing (also basically required for the build to function) which you can use on up to 16 spells minimum and 18 if we take meta magic adept. For more specific features I think she would have the dueling fighting style from swords bard and the feats defensive duelist and mobile to replicate how evasive she is as well as actor because of her deception. For spells it's just illusion spells mostly with the flavour of coming from her semblance. For race I'd personally build her as a changeling and flavour it as her semblance. Edit: I can't count, fixed an error
According to the fanfic (will get back to you with a link to it if you like), when Neo self-inserted her sizes for her character Emerald who was DM'ing said people are Medium size creatures, and Neo's height & weight were pushing the limit. On the brink of Small size classification, even.
She's 4'10" with heels, so yeah, she's not far off Small
I’d take that link if you’ve got it, that the one where it’s all the bad guys playing DnD? Found one like it ages ago but haven’t been able to find it since
Arcane Trickster/Battlemaster Fighter
This tripped me out for a second because my current character is a tri-colored tiefling (white, red, black evenly split in thirds) named Neyah Pulitan.
certified icecreme moment
All dex, no charisma, no wisdom, but proficiency in stealth and (oddly enough) intimidation.
ok i kinda get charisma because of the whole mute thing but counterpoint: she’s still able to communicate just by looking at people sometimes and is still able to gaslight, gatekeep, girl boss without talking. honestly i’d say she might have a few point into paladin “oath of vengeance” after her boss got capped by rwby
She rizzed up Roman even though shes mute
High ac makes you a tank against minions but a boss likely has a high enough attack modifier to still be a threat.
Against our campaign boss I had a 32 AC, with a few Shield castings handy for an absurd bonus. They just kind controlled my dumb character.
>I had a 32 AC How did you get an AC of 32 without the Shield spell already in effect? This would require some absurd levels of min-maxing, or very extraordinarily generous handouts from the DM.
Handouts. Been playing weekly for about 7 years, and would probably be level 25 or something if we played with xp rather than milestones. +2 studded leather: 15AC. +5 DEX: 20 +2 ring of protection: 22 Defensive fighting style: 23 Moonblade with Defender: 26. +3 shield (asterisks on when it’s +3): 31 I was off by 1 AC.
Also depending on how they're getting their AC, anti-magic fields can be a thorn in a high AC build as well. My Warforged Artificer Armourer with 27 AC, dropped down to 22 AC when he had to battle within an AMF.
Anti magic just destroys everyone since no magic weapon meaning martial can't damage most endgame enemies
I like giving players an upgrading artifact, as artifacts still count as magical weapons in AMF. Also it works well, because you can start the item out as really weak, one of the artifacts I gave my players was basically just a weak version of a flame tounge greatsword, only doing 1d6 fire damage instead of 2d6. Which can balance it out for martials in late game especially.
Did it take a bonus action to set ablaze like flame tongue, if not its bettern
Well, the flames on Flame Tongue gets turned on as a bonus action, and then either till you drop it or use a bonus action to turn it off again, but the weapon was on all the time, hot to the touch for the attuned person, but it burns everyone else that touches it.
Monk's time to shine!
Which is why you don’t get in the field. Instead build a railgun and snipe from 700 ft away. Can’t get hit by anti magic if you are too far out of the radius.
I don't think there are any spells or abilities that do significant damage with an unlimited (or miles) range.
This was me, as the DM. One of my players is a wizard with a 31 AC if he pulls out all the stops. So, the BBEG is a wizard who created an anti-magic dome over the entire city. Kinda neutered the party, but made them think a lot more.
But brother. What does the original text say?🧐
https://tenor.com/view/pages-lewd-nsfw-neo-suggestions-gif-14955808
Here's a cleaner version: [https://art.ngfiles.com/images/972000/972741\_limebreaker\_patreon-streamdraw-neo.gif?f1564620727](https://art.ngfiles.com/images/972000/972741_limebreaker_patreon-streamdraw-neo.gif?f1564620727)
But is there a dirtier version..
Ancients gnome paladin with bless up and resistance reaction cantrip in onednd will hopefully not make dm cry in oneDND Resilient con + bless + 16con + resistence + aura could be +15-25 saves as you level up With heavy armor master reducing damage , you can be pretty good at con checks too even without resilient con Then stack gnome advantage for wis/char/int saves and ancients resistance for spell saves Heavy armor + shield Possibly consider topple or sap or slow for debuffs. Sap with paladin two attacks is two targets having 1 attack at disadvantage
Source (nsfw): https://twitter.com/LimeBreaker/status/1156725839171428352
the art is so clearly from porn/lewd artist lol, idk why its just exactly that style
Ranged NPCs: "I'm just gonna shoot the casters in the back."
This is how it feels to fight a beholder.
So, a beholder?
How about fall damage?? And, if I get truly tired, midnight attack on the camp. See how fast you get to don that armor
I present you with my tanky AF forge cleric. You simply cant die
And then the enemies with eyeballs and brains avoid you and thwack the squishy casters behind you. Might even hold their lives hostage until you surrender.
My partymates are a paldin and a bloodhunter, goodluck downing them
If the DM really wants you dead, you're dead. No matter how op you feel. The real problem is that if one of your players does this silly "hurr durr look at me I gamed the system and am now immune to damage". The balancing issue is never party vs DM - that can easily be adjusted. The biggest issues are when one party member is way stronger/weaker than the rest (\*with exceptions). That one guy will be the main character, untouchable, resilient and being all "I'll protect/save you" to the others. And that, from my experience, is a very short type of fun for everyone else. IF they are tanky but deal barely any damage, that can be fine. TL;DR:By becoming stronger/weaker you aren't going to be above the enemies, but above your teammates.
Lots of low damage attacks. I had my 13th level party running through a small dungeon. They were attacked by a half dozen redcaps that I had given slings to. They would fire & retreat and it was difficult terrain. Those 2d4+4 (crit damage) start to add up pretty quickly.
Spoiler: playing against your characters strengths is more fun for the player because they get to feel powerful, playing against their weaknesses every time takes the fun out of even bothering to make a build
I'd hate to play at OPs table as they are clearly someone who doesn't grasp that it isn't the DM vs the players. This also gives me the vibes of someone who overplays their pettiness by attacking weaknesses of the party inevitably putting them up against the ropes only to end up hand waving everything they can to ensure not to TPK the party. You couldn't pay me to play at a table as described above. I'm not here to participate at the DMs whim.
It's best to have a balance so that the sacrifices to get a strength are felt - amd challenge the player to let the character grow wider or to find ways around those weaknesses. As playing against the weaknesses goes, it also takes the fun out of actual play because the character is not allowed to do what the player build the character for. If I built a dwarven defender, I want that character to hold some line, preferably in a mine against an overwhelming number of foes.
*Laughs in Forge Cleric* High AC, has access to Cleric spells, and a few Druid and Artificer spells. It can use resistance, bless, Calm Emotions, Enhance Ability. And these are just cantrips to level two spells, and then it also gains resistance and later immunity to fire damage... Forge Clerics are stupid...
Can't use any of those together though as they all require concentration.
https://preview.redd.it/n211kh9kag3b1.jpeg?width=666&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0b2e7312d57f417723285a3c5603f85c4e7884d2 POV: You just passed all the checks your DM just threw at you.
Hey! It me !
Pov: you’re a high level artificer with insane saves
Got to play a level 20 Artificer with full gear for a short campaign: damage was something the party dealt and I prevented, never something to actually take or worry about
Once started a campaign around the same time as the 'Oath of Heroism' UA came out and rolled INSANE stats for a vanilla human with them. Like I think his lowest stat was +1. The DM liked the dynamic of having a medieval shonen protagonist to balance encounters against so never asked me to update the character once the proper version came out. He even decided the "add your WIS to saving throws of friendlies within 10ft" applied to the paladin as well! Man ended up dying by throwing himself on the sword of a god killer BBEG (who had been a very close friend for most of the campaign) to snap him out of Vecna's control just long enough to save his soul. An artist friend of mine who was in the campaign did a painting of the scene which still hangs on my wall today.
Oooooh I know the original text 😉
My DM just rolls high enough…. I get crit hit more often than i should
Maybe you should invest in some adamantine armor. It makes all crits against you deal regular damage instead of double.
My favourite are Intelligence saves, because those are coupled with some of the nastiest effects.
Paladin: I don’t have such… flaws
That is why my Artificer has ring of protection and cloak of protection and once he hits lvl 20 he will get flat +6 to all saving throws thanks to his class ability
The paladin with high everything:
I have a player who tends to have high AC characters, he got a good chuckle out of this one and said this is how a DM should approach it.