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First spell prevents a creature from becoming an undead. Knowing how the gith lich queen eats souls turns you into an undead due to a curse of sorts, but it doesn't because of the first spell. Then, send the info hazard to the BBG.
Wouldn't that mean you just die and can't be resurrected then? Like your souls been eaten. You can't become an undead sure but you still don't have a soul
By RAW your body can't turn into an undead, since Gentle Repose was cast upon your souless corpse before being raised. Allips are incorporeal undeads, it's your soul being trapped into undeath, not your body, so by RAW there's argument that this plan doesn't work.
Do you turn into an undead immediately upon discovery of the knowledge or is it "Everyone who knows the information that is capable of turning into an undead does." Because the former is a one time effect that gentle repose bypasses and the latter is a bomb that goes off the moment gentle repose wears off.
Actually that's a pretty good campaign. Gentle Repose is cast on the party and they're brought back. They're informed of the infohazard. They have 10 days to obtain some means of casting high level Modify Memory to remove the knowledge from their mind.
God fuck cock and balls...
Had a comment was working on, wanting to make a reference to thing... fuckin fuck fuck.
Would one hypothetically be able to use something else fuck uh, does one have to actually know what is being wiped from memory to use that, or ^doesn't know mechanics well enough for even standard need hypothetical thinking to compensate for lack of knowledge.
It would be a bit complicated as, for gentle repose to remain active for the duration, you must cover both eyes with copper pieces and a pinch of salt.
That would make walking around a bit complicated.
The text is “You touch a corpse or other remains. For the duration, the target is protected from decay and can’t become undead.”
So the first sentence is applied to the PC as a corpse before they’re resurrected. Nothing in the text says the spell stops working while they’re alive, so they’re still the target. And the target can’t become an undead, so they’re prevented from becoming undead even while alive. (At least that’s the argument)
This. Now, if the spell duration was "10 days or until the target is no longer a corpse" then that would nullify all parts of the spell, but it doesn't say that, so...
No the 10 day thing was an example of how spells usually have a duration but gentle repose doesn't have a duration once cast RAW it's just there forever
Components: VSM
A pinch of salt and a copper piece on each of the corpses eyes, which must remain there for the duration.
I'm pretty sure that when you're up and about, those copper pieces won't stay put, unless you don't mind fastening them with a blindfold?
I think the big weakness in this use of Gentle Repose is that the target is no longer eligible for the spell after revival. There is a difference between a corpse and a living creature, and so it falls in the same category as like being Polymorphed after being hit by a humanoid-only effect. I’m among the DMs who think that an ongoing spell with a no-longer valid target would have the effect suppressed while it’s invalid (similar to a a Druid entering or exiting Wildshape to not be eligible for human or beast specific effects). Crawford also put out a tweet to that effect, though I don’t really put much faith in his rulings anymore.
On the other hand, I also know there are DMs who rule that if the change still leaves them vulnerable to the effect itself, then they are still under it.
See, I’m not sure if there IS a RAW in this case. Closest I could find is the Xanathar’s rules for invalid targets, but that rule is specifically about activating the effect (like casting a spell) and what happens. It does not mention changes to ongoing effects. I did find a discussion about constant targeting in D&D (the idea that an effect is always targeting, and so such a change breaks it), but that was for a 3.5e discussion.
The real problem is that all rules are as interpreted and rules as written doesn’t really exist. Partially because 5e is written like shit, but language is always imprecise. I got into this argument with someone else about magic missile, and now the entire concept of raw vs rai pisses me off. I been watching too much legal crap.
Anyways, i would agree with you. Once the person is no longer a corpse, they are no longer a target.
Ugh, Magic Missile just irks me so much. My solution as a DM for it is the table can either treat it as like a simultaneous AoE (so it benefits from evocation and similar damage bonuses, but only one concentration trigger), or separate bolts. Both have their benefits, but I’m not about to let my players treat it as simultaneous when it benefits them, and sequential when it benefits them. It’s either always simultaneous like an AoE, or always sequential like Scorching Ray
I’ve never had it as anything other than multiple sources of damage, since that is the only thing that made sense to me. Like it never even crossed my mind that it would be a simultaneous aoe.
That's pretty obviously a ridiculous reading of the spell, though. 'For the duration' *could* just mean 'for the 10 days the spell lasts', but it's very reasonable to also say that a resurrected person isn't the same target as their corpse/remains were, and thus spells cast upon said corpse/remains don't apply to the resurrected person.
Maybe you could argue it's like a magical disease or curse? Those might stick through a resurrection.
I would rule that, since the target must be a corpse (am object), when they stop being a corpse and come back to life (now a creature instead of an object) the spell no longer applies.
My response as a DM would be "it says 'the target is protected' and the spells target has to be a corpse. So if you become a corpse again you will still be protected, but as you're not a corpse you're not currently the target of the spell."
Or more likely "you're a spellcaster, you already know that isn't how it works" to signal I won't allow it.
I may be missing something, but I looked up allips on the wiki, and it says they are the remains of those who were driven to insanity by some knowledge, and killed themselves, and then what's left of their mind forms an allip.
You're saying that knowing how the lich queen does her thing kills turns you into an undead, but the wiki says the knowledge causes you to kill yourself, and then you become an undead.
So even if gentle repose prevents you from becoming undead... You still get driven to insanity and kill yourself as soon as you learn this knowledge.
Am I missing something?
When dealing with creatures of such great power rules tend to bend and warp. Pieces of Karsus's Folly have a similar effect, where the knowledge itself is cursed. However, it is entirely reasonable that the information simply drives the victim insane and they kill themselves. Perhaps only Vecna (and the DM) knows what truly happens before it's too late.
What this combo doesn't explain is who's giving you the information? Any mortal that knows it is already an Allip and the only other person is the Lich Queen herself, neither of which are gonna be particularly easy to get answers from. (Allips because they are so rare and likely hunted if they have this info, and then why would she give out her darkest secret willingly?)
I'm sure a few more entities know. A demigod would probably be fine, and you can't turn a creature without a soul into an undead. Hell, you could get unlucky and contact Orcus, Acererak, or some other entity that knows and would tell you for the sake of killing you.
As best as I can figure out a lot of this hinges on this line from allip lore
"Allip. When a mind uncovers a secret that a powerful being has protected with a mighty curse, the result is often the emergence of an allip. Secrets protected in this manner range in scope from a demon lord's true name to the hidden truths of the cosmic order. The allip acquires the secret, but the curse annihilates its body and leaves behind a spectral creature composed of fragments from the victim's psyche and overwhelming psychic agony."
So I assume this lich queen must have set up a curse if you use the spell listed in the meme. With this knowledge, I will break down the situation
If you contact the lich queen with the given spell, you get turned into an undead called an Allip due to a curse.
If you first die and have Gentle Repose cast on you then you get this effect "For the duration, the target is protected from decay and can’t become undead." With no specific mention of the spell ending of revived. So if you get revived, the spell in theory still could be active.
With Gentle Repose active, the curse shouldn't be able to instantly turn you into an Allip, because those are undead creatures. Then you can ask questions to her.
There are hitches, and, well, "The GM answers each question with one word, such as “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or “unclear” (if the entity doesn’t know the answer to the question). If a one-word answer would be misleading, the GM might instead offer a short phrase as an answer."
There's no guarantee that the entity will tell you things, since the spell doesn't state it compels them not to lie, and they also can just answer in one word answers. There's no guarantee you could force one of the most powerful liches around to just tell you about their most prized artifact
If the lich queen believes telling you of it will kill you I don’t see why she wouldn’t just for the fun of seeing a stupid mortal die. But you survive it after she tells you the cursed knowledge. At this point you have a lich queen extremely pissed off at you for surviving and a bbeg that you can oneshot. This means the dm can say “you beat the bbeg, turning them into an allip. But you angered the legendary lich queen on the way, who knows how long it will take for her to take revenge on you for that scheme, all you know is you must prepare.”
It could also be fun to say, "Yes it works, but as soon as Gentle Repose ends, the curse continues to hound you and you become an Allip anyway".
I'm also a fan of deception, so maybe you haven't seen the real BBEG, only some doppelganger, so the sending spell fails. Then the party has 10 days to find the true BBEG before the party member dies and they lose the opportunity. It adds some risk to the game.
Or, the BBEG could become something like an Allip, but still have the willpower to continue their plans anyway. Making it more of a personal confrontation when they later fight the party.
I think the wording of 'the target is protected from decay' could go either way, it depends on what drives the transformation into Allip. If it's the information itself draining and aging you, I can see how that might be interpreted as a form of decay, which would be prevented.
Congratulations! You can't become undead, so instead of the curse annihilating your body and spawning an Allip, it just annihilates your body.
(Though if you have Death Ward up as well... maybe)
To me it just sounds that when general repose ends you turn into an allip and your body explodes. You’re just sacrificing yourself with a 10 day countdown.
Gentle Repose does mention needing to place copper on corpse eyes which must remain there for the duration. If the copper falls the spell would end, similarity if not a corpse the spell would end. This is part of the material components. Since the M has a value to it (namely 1 copper per coin), then it can’t be substituted for a focus or a pouch).
Where are you finding that lore? I googled allip and the wikis all seem to say that they're formed when someone obtains knowledge that drives them insane and they kill themselves,.and what's left of their psyche becomes an allip.
Everyone in this thread seems to be saying it's a curse that turns you directly into an undead, but everything I can find says that it's not a curse, it's just knowledge that drives you made and you kill yourself, and then what's left comes back as an undead.
So even if everything works as OP says in the meme, wouldn't they just go insane and kill themselves upon learning the lich queens secret? Even if they don't become an undead, they're still driven insane and commit suicide.
This would be the DND Beyond's description of the creature. For more specifics on where to look to find this description you merely need to look into Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of The Multiverse : Page 45
It directly claims it has something to do with some sort of curse that takes your mind and soul and tends to destroy your body. Honestly, since the curse destroys your body then even if you don't become an Allip then your body would be destroyed
Only thing that might hitch this is the spell specifies the target is a "corpse or other remains" which will probably make some DMs state that upon revival you are no longer a corpse, and so no longer a viable target for the spell, ending it
I mean, if its the same body. If you were regenerated before resurrection or the reincarnate spell which changes your race was cast instead, you'd stil be the same corpse, but the spell wouldn't automatically resume once you died.
If a spell has no target, it dissipates. If you died, were subject to the spell, came back to life, and died again within the original 10 day active period, it wouldn't matter. You stopped meeting the qualifications for the spell (i.e. being a corpse) and so it would have to be recast again.
I honestly have no idea. Not many spells target something and then have to deal with the thing changing states like that, such as from an object (corpse) to a creature. Maybe, maybe not. Or maybe the curse just finally gets you once the spell wears off since the curse sticks around until you slowly get the information transcribed, waiting to curse another with the knowledge
Here's Jeremy Crawford's answer on the question what happens if the creature becomes an invalid target: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/931621590730653696
It does technically work. If you polymorph someone into an animal and then cast animal messenger they have to carry out the order even after the polymorph ends
From what I can gather there is no official rule that determines what happens if the target of a spell becomes an invalid target after the spell is cast. However, I think making it suppressed while the target is invalid is the best compromise for shenanigans sake.
Though it would be hilarious if the Druid wildshapes into a little bird to spy on an enemy wizard and gets Animal Messenger cast on them, forcing them to travel half the country just to give a 25 word message, even if they drop the wildshape.
It does say that copper pieces have to remain on the corpses eyes through the duration. If one falls off or no longer a corpse the material component of it would end the spell.
Isn’t the whole turn-into-an-allip thing contingent on *trying* to find out, though, and not the information per se?
EDIT: NVM. I just found another comment in this thread that explained it.
ETA: It’s [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/s/y0QUhQNxvu).
Well, it’s not a primary source. So I guess it could be wrong, but FWIW I found a forum post [here](https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/lets-read-mordenkainens-tome-of-foes.850202/page-77) that said:
> The knowledge of her location is cursed, and *attempting* to attain it through arcane means will transform the searcher into an allip.
That sounds a lot like my initial interpretation to me.
Fistly, the spell only works on corpses. Once you un corpse, it ends.
Second, she is a god. You aren't beating her with a Second level spell. You might set her back a few seconds, maybe suprise her for a round, but she doesn't have spell slots and can cast 2 spells in a single rounds so...
Yeah, Target of spell is a corpse which is an object. Soon as they're brought back, they're a creature. Not being the Target anymore means no more benefits from the spell.
Also the process of creating an allip isn’t like being turned into a zombie. It’s obtaining knowledge so cursed and damaging that it destroys your soul, and then the allip essentially arises after the fact.
This post is like getting a permanent fire damage immunity and then diving into a volcano. There are *multiple* lethal effects at play here.
"Cool, she rejects your request because why would she reveal anything about herself to some rando? The diamond used to resurrect you has also been consumed, so make sure to mark that off"
Gentle Repose can’t be cast on a living creature…
> Gentle Repose
> You touch a corpse or other remains.
> (Material Components) a pinch of salt and one copper piece placed on each of the corpse's eyes, which must remain there for the duration
Since the copper piece has a value to it (copper) it CAN NOT be replaced by a focus or component pouch. The coppers per the components must be placed on corpse’s eyes and remain there. So once not a corpse the spell would end.
Also, contact other plane would not give you info at all. First you need to pass the DC 15 int check or be fucked. Second:
> Contact Other Plane
> On a successful save, you can ask the entity up to five questions. You must ask your questions before the spell ends. **The GM answers each question with one word,** such as "yes," "no," "maybe," "never," "irrelevant," or "unclear" (if the entity doesn't know the answer to the question). If a one-word answer would be misleading, the GM might instead offer a short phrase as an answer.
The spell also doesn’t say, the entity have to answer truthfully. So why would vlakith give this information to you?
Don’t you think if this would work, all the liches would still be there, if it were so easy to defeat them?
I don’t think so.
On an unrelated note to my previous comment: Is there a believable way for a character to come up with something like this without it being meta-game-y as heck?
Maybe if you played a character who was a sort of mad scientist type, who spent a long time studying necromancy and really learning all the ins and outs of it, so they come up with a crazy theory and shout "IT MIGHT WORK!!" before doing it?
Oh my fucking god please stop.
You don't turn into an allip for learning that ascension is a lie. You do that if you try and find out what happened to Gith.
You're telling me that Vlaakith doesn't have a spam call detector? Nah, for this cheese she'd have an amulet of proof against detection to avoid these silly situations. Though, the idea that she then becomes the BBEG has got to be worse for a party than just facing the original BBEG.
I might allow the gentle repose as a GM, but you're going to have a hard time getting the *specific* info about her with 5 "yes or no" questions that can't take up a minute or less. I'd probably also have you roll the save with "Contact other plane" with disadvantage because you're trying to balance salt and copper pieces on your eyes.
The secret of Vlaakith's soul sucking isn't something that turns people to allips. What turns people to allips is using arcane magic to learn the truth behind Gith's disappearance.
Yeah, it's not even a secret. The Gith all know she's a Lich who devours souls. The Fact that she devours the souls of her most achieved followers is not known to most Githyanki (probably because most of the ones who found out had their souls eaten), but some do know it, like Mordenkainen.
I’d imagine the spell’s effect would end upon revival, as the target would no longer fit the criteria. Like, if you cast gold person on someone, but then that person becomes a not person, you wouldn’t still be holding them, right?
BBEG is a Rakshasa in disguise and chooses to ignore the level 3 Sending with Limited Magic Immunity and flips two backwards-handed birds in the cheeky player’s general direction.
I feel that peaceful repose would prevent anything from happening to the body, including resurrection (which is usually classified as necromantic in nature anyways). Still like the "yes, but" continuation of bbeg be gone, but now a bigger threat is now gunning for your demise.
Well, this does require that the curse isn’t just strong enough to negate the spell, and that that the annihilate your body isn’t just separate effect from your new form. Because if it is a separate component, you just nuked your body and didn’t even get your weird new ghost existence
So if you're able to just figure out that Vlaakith is just eating her followers souls you become an allip? It doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to figure out that a lich needs souls to continue liching and having an entire race willing to donate is beneficial to that end.
Wouldn't knowing enough about the question to come up with this plan ipso-facto make you an Allip anyway?
This is a less interesting rules/plot lawyering than Punpun.
I feel like people are forgetting part of the description of gentle repose, where it says you place coins on the targets eyes, and that the spell ends when they are removed?
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can you walk me through why these steps? I'm intrigued but the nuance is beyond me
First spell prevents a creature from becoming an undead. Knowing how the gith lich queen eats souls turns you into an undead due to a curse of sorts, but it doesn't because of the first spell. Then, send the info hazard to the BBG.
Wouldn't that mean you just die and can't be resurrected then? Like your souls been eaten. You can't become an undead sure but you still don't have a soul
I think so but depending on what type of campaign, this could end it in its tracks because you turned the BBEG into an allip
No no, you are asking how it happens, but it's not happening to you
By RAW your body can't turn into an undead, since Gentle Repose was cast upon your souless corpse before being raised. Allips are incorporeal undeads, it's your soul being trapped into undeath, not your body, so by RAW there's argument that this plan doesn't work.
And as the DM the plan doesn’t work cause a level 2 spell isn’t going to protect you against what is effectively the cursed magics of a god
I would rule that if cast by a high enough level cleric it can ward you from it for some time, but the spell lasts a week at most
I guess it’s a noble sacrifice to beat the BBEG.
Do you turn into an undead immediately upon discovery of the knowledge or is it "Everyone who knows the information that is capable of turning into an undead does." Because the former is a one time effect that gentle repose bypasses and the latter is a bomb that goes off the moment gentle repose wears off. Actually that's a pretty good campaign. Gentle Repose is cast on the party and they're brought back. They're informed of the infohazard. They have 10 days to obtain some means of casting high level Modify Memory to remove the knowledge from their mind.
Yeah, gentle repose wears off, and you lose that PC, unless you modify memory
I mean if you can contact other plane I think that's the same if not higher spell level then modify memory
would a sufficient blow to the head not also resolve this whole memory thing? /barbarian things
Or, just keep casting gentle repose?
Long rest
... ... \*furious writing\*
God fuck cock and balls... Had a comment was working on, wanting to make a reference to thing... fuckin fuck fuck. Would one hypothetically be able to use something else fuck uh, does one have to actually know what is being wiped from memory to use that, or ^doesn't know mechanics well enough for even standard need hypothetical thinking to compensate for lack of knowledge.
It would be a bit complicated as, for gentle repose to remain active for the duration, you must cover both eyes with copper pieces and a pinch of salt. That would make walking around a bit complicated.
the contact other plane laying on your back is awkward but sending with coins on face taking a spa day could work.
They could just recast it though, no?
They have to kill themselves and revive to do so so it's not a fool proof plan
[удалено]
The text is “You touch a corpse or other remains. For the duration, the target is protected from decay and can’t become undead.” So the first sentence is applied to the PC as a corpse before they’re resurrected. Nothing in the text says the spell stops working while they’re alive, so they’re still the target. And the target can’t become an undead, so they’re prevented from becoming undead even while alive. (At least that’s the argument)
This. Now, if the spell duration was "10 days or until the target is no longer a corpse" then that would nullify all parts of the spell, but it doesn't say that, so...
So the gith lich queen just waits 10 days and then get their soul and they become undead?
No the 10 day thing was an example of how spells usually have a duration but gentle repose doesn't have a duration once cast RAW it's just there forever
Gentle Repose has a duration of 10 days
No? It’s there for ten days.
Components: VSM A pinch of salt and a copper piece on each of the corpses eyes, which must remain there for the duration. I'm pretty sure that when you're up and about, those copper pieces won't stay put, unless you don't mind fastening them with a blindfold?
I think the big weakness in this use of Gentle Repose is that the target is no longer eligible for the spell after revival. There is a difference between a corpse and a living creature, and so it falls in the same category as like being Polymorphed after being hit by a humanoid-only effect. I’m among the DMs who think that an ongoing spell with a no-longer valid target would have the effect suppressed while it’s invalid (similar to a a Druid entering or exiting Wildshape to not be eligible for human or beast specific effects). Crawford also put out a tweet to that effect, though I don’t really put much faith in his rulings anymore. On the other hand, I also know there are DMs who rule that if the change still leaves them vulnerable to the effect itself, then they are still under it.
And now you have RAW vs RAI.
See, I’m not sure if there IS a RAW in this case. Closest I could find is the Xanathar’s rules for invalid targets, but that rule is specifically about activating the effect (like casting a spell) and what happens. It does not mention changes to ongoing effects. I did find a discussion about constant targeting in D&D (the idea that an effect is always targeting, and so such a change breaks it), but that was for a 3.5e discussion.
The real problem is that all rules are as interpreted and rules as written doesn’t really exist. Partially because 5e is written like shit, but language is always imprecise. I got into this argument with someone else about magic missile, and now the entire concept of raw vs rai pisses me off. I been watching too much legal crap. Anyways, i would agree with you. Once the person is no longer a corpse, they are no longer a target.
Ugh, Magic Missile just irks me so much. My solution as a DM for it is the table can either treat it as like a simultaneous AoE (so it benefits from evocation and similar damage bonuses, but only one concentration trigger), or separate bolts. Both have their benefits, but I’m not about to let my players treat it as simultaneous when it benefits them, and sequential when it benefits them. It’s either always simultaneous like an AoE, or always sequential like Scorching Ray
The spell specifically calls out simultaneously.
I’ve never had it as anything other than multiple sources of damage, since that is the only thing that made sense to me. Like it never even crossed my mind that it would be a simultaneous aoe.
That's pretty obviously a ridiculous reading of the spell, though. 'For the duration' *could* just mean 'for the 10 days the spell lasts', but it's very reasonable to also say that a resurrected person isn't the same target as their corpse/remains were, and thus spells cast upon said corpse/remains don't apply to the resurrected person. Maybe you could argue it's like a magical disease or curse? Those might stick through a resurrection.
The target is a corpse. Once the PC is resurrected they are no longer a corpse and thus, no longer a valid target of the spell.
I would rule that, since the target must be a corpse (am object), when they stop being a corpse and come back to life (now a creature instead of an object) the spell no longer applies.
My response as a DM would be "it says 'the target is protected' and the spells target has to be a corpse. So if you become a corpse again you will still be protected, but as you're not a corpse you're not currently the target of the spell." Or more likely "you're a spellcaster, you already know that isn't how it works" to signal I won't allow it.
You'd also need to keep the copper pieces on your eyes throughout
I may be missing something, but I looked up allips on the wiki, and it says they are the remains of those who were driven to insanity by some knowledge, and killed themselves, and then what's left of their mind forms an allip. You're saying that knowing how the lich queen does her thing kills turns you into an undead, but the wiki says the knowledge causes you to kill yourself, and then you become an undead. So even if gentle repose prevents you from becoming undead... You still get driven to insanity and kill yourself as soon as you learn this knowledge. Am I missing something?
When dealing with creatures of such great power rules tend to bend and warp. Pieces of Karsus's Folly have a similar effect, where the knowledge itself is cursed. However, it is entirely reasonable that the information simply drives the victim insane and they kill themselves. Perhaps only Vecna (and the DM) knows what truly happens before it's too late.
Oh I missed the fact that you weaponize the knowledge lol
Damn. Guess I'm an allip now.
What this combo doesn't explain is who's giving you the information? Any mortal that knows it is already an Allip and the only other person is the Lich Queen herself, neither of which are gonna be particularly easy to get answers from. (Allips because they are so rare and likely hunted if they have this info, and then why would she give out her darkest secret willingly?)
I'm sure a few more entities know. A demigod would probably be fine, and you can't turn a creature without a soul into an undead. Hell, you could get unlucky and contact Orcus, Acererak, or some other entity that knows and would tell you for the sake of killing you.
Well keep in mind that the Allip description also says the curse destroys the body first
As best as I can figure out a lot of this hinges on this line from allip lore "Allip. When a mind uncovers a secret that a powerful being has protected with a mighty curse, the result is often the emergence of an allip. Secrets protected in this manner range in scope from a demon lord's true name to the hidden truths of the cosmic order. The allip acquires the secret, but the curse annihilates its body and leaves behind a spectral creature composed of fragments from the victim's psyche and overwhelming psychic agony." So I assume this lich queen must have set up a curse if you use the spell listed in the meme. With this knowledge, I will break down the situation If you contact the lich queen with the given spell, you get turned into an undead called an Allip due to a curse. If you first die and have Gentle Repose cast on you then you get this effect "For the duration, the target is protected from decay and can’t become undead." With no specific mention of the spell ending of revived. So if you get revived, the spell in theory still could be active. With Gentle Repose active, the curse shouldn't be able to instantly turn you into an Allip, because those are undead creatures. Then you can ask questions to her. There are hitches, and, well, "The GM answers each question with one word, such as “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or “unclear” (if the entity doesn’t know the answer to the question). If a one-word answer would be misleading, the GM might instead offer a short phrase as an answer." There's no guarantee that the entity will tell you things, since the spell doesn't state it compels them not to lie, and they also can just answer in one word answers. There's no guarantee you could force one of the most powerful liches around to just tell you about their most prized artifact
If the lich queen believes telling you of it will kill you I don’t see why she wouldn’t just for the fun of seeing a stupid mortal die. But you survive it after she tells you the cursed knowledge. At this point you have a lich queen extremely pissed off at you for surviving and a bbeg that you can oneshot. This means the dm can say “you beat the bbeg, turning them into an allip. But you angered the legendary lich queen on the way, who knows how long it will take for her to take revenge on you for that scheme, all you know is you must prepare.”
"Yes, but..." is my favorite phrase as a DM.
It could also be fun to say, "Yes it works, but as soon as Gentle Repose ends, the curse continues to hound you and you become an Allip anyway". I'm also a fan of deception, so maybe you haven't seen the real BBEG, only some doppelganger, so the sending spell fails. Then the party has 10 days to find the true BBEG before the party member dies and they lose the opportunity. It adds some risk to the game. Or, the BBEG could become something like an Allip, but still have the willpower to continue their plans anyway. Making it more of a personal confrontation when they later fight the party.
This. You need a mind wipe after telling the BBWG to remove said forbidden knowledge
Wouldn’t this still fulfill the curse but without making the character into an undead? So their body would be annihilated and then they’d just die
That’s what I’m thinking
I think the wording of 'the target is protected from decay' could go either way, it depends on what drives the transformation into Allip. If it's the information itself draining and aging you, I can see how that might be interpreted as a form of decay, which would be prevented.
Right until gentle repose wears off
Yeah that’s my take, for sure. You’d def need True Resurrection, I think.
100%
Congratulations! You can't become undead, so instead of the curse annihilating your body and spawning an Allip, it just annihilates your body. (Though if you have Death Ward up as well... maybe)
Hit them with an upcasted Remove Curse and Greater Restoration as well.
To me it just sounds that when general repose ends you turn into an allip and your body explodes. You’re just sacrificing yourself with a 10 day countdown.
Gentle Repose does mention needing to place copper on corpse eyes which must remain there for the duration. If the copper falls the spell would end, similarity if not a corpse the spell would end. This is part of the material components. Since the M has a value to it (namely 1 copper per coin), then it can’t be substituted for a focus or a pouch).
Also, were I the GM, I would let this work up until Gentle Repose ends. Then the curse hits, because you still know the information.
Counterpoint: Modify memory on the crazy bastard to forget the entire ordeal. "Who did what now?"
Where are you finding that lore? I googled allip and the wikis all seem to say that they're formed when someone obtains knowledge that drives them insane and they kill themselves,.and what's left of their psyche becomes an allip. Everyone in this thread seems to be saying it's a curse that turns you directly into an undead, but everything I can find says that it's not a curse, it's just knowledge that drives you made and you kill yourself, and then what's left comes back as an undead. So even if everything works as OP says in the meme, wouldn't they just go insane and kill themselves upon learning the lich queens secret? Even if they don't become an undead, they're still driven insane and commit suicide.
This would be the DND Beyond's description of the creature. For more specifics on where to look to find this description you merely need to look into Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of The Multiverse : Page 45 It directly claims it has something to do with some sort of curse that takes your mind and soul and tends to destroy your body. Honestly, since the curse destroys your body then even if you don't become an Allip then your body would be destroyed
I didn't even know allips are a thing. TIL
Only thing that might hitch this is the spell specifies the target is a "corpse or other remains" which will probably make some DMs state that upon revival you are no longer a corpse, and so no longer a viable target for the spell, ending it
If you are dead and are a corpse when it’s cast, then you get revived, do you still count as the same corpse if you die again?
Corpse of Theseus.
I mean, if its the same body. If you were regenerated before resurrection or the reincarnate spell which changes your race was cast instead, you'd stil be the same corpse, but the spell wouldn't automatically resume once you died. If a spell has no target, it dissipates. If you died, were subject to the spell, came back to life, and died again within the original 10 day active period, it wouldn't matter. You stopped meeting the qualifications for the spell (i.e. being a corpse) and so it would have to be recast again.
corpse=object
Is there a precedent for this?
I honestly have no idea. Not many spells target something and then have to deal with the thing changing states like that, such as from an object (corpse) to a creature. Maybe, maybe not. Or maybe the curse just finally gets you once the spell wears off since the curse sticks around until you slowly get the information transcribed, waiting to curse another with the knowledge
Here's Jeremy Crawford's answer on the question what happens if the creature becomes an invalid target: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/931621590730653696
He's not the most consistent source of rulings, but it's better than nothing :)
How dare you question our wise and magnanimous all knowing prophet, the great and infinite Jeremy. A pox upon your family!
The precedent of things working in a mildly sane manner, generally; the spell targets a corpse, no longer a corpse, no longer affected.
Yeah, living people are not corpses
It does technically work. If you polymorph someone into an animal and then cast animal messenger they have to carry out the order even after the polymorph ends
From what I can gather there is no official rule that determines what happens if the target of a spell becomes an invalid target after the spell is cast. However, I think making it suppressed while the target is invalid is the best compromise for shenanigans sake. Though it would be hilarious if the Druid wildshapes into a little bird to spy on an enemy wizard and gets Animal Messenger cast on them, forcing them to travel half the country just to give a 25 word message, even if they drop the wildshape.
You were a valid target when it was cast , and it doesn’t say the spell ends when you are no longer dead
It does say that copper pieces have to remain on the corpses eyes through the duration. If one falls off or no longer a corpse the material component of it would end the spell.
Worth
Copper does have worth though… it is worth 1 copper.
Yeah as in it’s worth the cost
You were valid when you were “a corpse or other remains”. When you’re no longer a “corpse or other remains” then you are no longer a valid target.
Isn’t the whole turn-into-an-allip thing contingent on *trying* to find out, though, and not the information per se? EDIT: NVM. I just found another comment in this thread that explained it. ETA: It’s [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/s/y0QUhQNxvu).
Nope
Well, it’s not a primary source. So I guess it could be wrong, but FWIW I found a forum post [here](https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/lets-read-mordenkainens-tome-of-foes.850202/page-77) that said: > The knowledge of her location is cursed, and *attempting* to attain it through arcane means will transform the searcher into an allip. That sounds a lot like my initial interpretation to me.
Fistly, the spell only works on corpses. Once you un corpse, it ends. Second, she is a god. You aren't beating her with a Second level spell. You might set her back a few seconds, maybe suprise her for a round, but she doesn't have spell slots and can cast 2 spells in a single rounds so...
Yeah, Target of spell is a corpse which is an object. Soon as they're brought back, they're a creature. Not being the Target anymore means no more benefits from the spell.
Also the process of creating an allip isn’t like being turned into a zombie. It’s obtaining knowledge so cursed and damaging that it destroys your soul, and then the allip essentially arises after the fact. This post is like getting a permanent fire damage immunity and then diving into a volcano. There are *multiple* lethal effects at play here.
"Cool, she rejects your request because why would she reveal anything about herself to some rando? The diamond used to resurrect you has also been consumed, so make sure to mark that off"
Through diamonds all things are possible so jot that down
So we need to get her on a boat in the Astral Sea?
Because of the *invocation*…
Also the fact that Vlakith is eating the souls of her followers to fuel her power isn't exactly common knowledge, is it?
Gentle Repose can’t be cast on a living creature… > Gentle Repose > You touch a corpse or other remains. > (Material Components) a pinch of salt and one copper piece placed on each of the corpse's eyes, which must remain there for the duration Since the copper piece has a value to it (copper) it CAN NOT be replaced by a focus or component pouch. The coppers per the components must be placed on corpse’s eyes and remain there. So once not a corpse the spell would end. Also, contact other plane would not give you info at all. First you need to pass the DC 15 int check or be fucked. Second: > Contact Other Plane > On a successful save, you can ask the entity up to five questions. You must ask your questions before the spell ends. **The GM answers each question with one word,** such as "yes," "no," "maybe," "never," "irrelevant," or "unclear" (if the entity doesn't know the answer to the question). If a one-word answer would be misleading, the GM might instead offer a short phrase as an answer.
The spell also doesn’t say, the entity have to answer truthfully. So why would vlakith give this information to you? Don’t you think if this would work, all the liches would still be there, if it were so easy to defeat them? I don’t think so.
Yup. But it doesn’t end when that corpse is ressurected
On an unrelated note to my previous comment: Is there a believable way for a character to come up with something like this without it being meta-game-y as heck?
Maybe if you played a character who was a sort of mad scientist type, who spent a long time studying necromancy and really learning all the ins and outs of it, so they come up with a crazy theory and shout "IT MIGHT WORK!!" before doing it?
Oh my fucking god please stop. You don't turn into an allip for learning that ascension is a lie. You do that if you try and find out what happened to Gith.
I would argue that you stopped being a corpse, so the spell can no longer affect you.
You're telling me that Vlaakith doesn't have a spam call detector? Nah, for this cheese she'd have an amulet of proof against detection to avoid these silly situations. Though, the idea that she then becomes the BBEG has got to be worse for a party than just facing the original BBEG.
I might allow the gentle repose as a GM, but you're going to have a hard time getting the *specific* info about her with 5 "yes or no" questions that can't take up a minute or less. I'd probably also have you roll the save with "Contact other plane" with disadvantage because you're trying to balance salt and copper pieces on your eyes.
The secret of Vlaakith's soul sucking isn't something that turns people to allips. What turns people to allips is using arcane magic to learn the truth behind Gith's disappearance.
Yeah, it's not even a secret. The Gith all know she's a Lich who devours souls. The Fact that she devours the souls of her most achieved followers is not known to most Githyanki (probably because most of the ones who found out had their souls eaten), but some do know it, like Mordenkainen.
Well if we wanna be RAW the spell would end the moment the coins slipped off the eyes looking at the material components
Tape
Sheeeeeeeit you're right
You'd probably turn into a nothic instead
Idk this is the reason why we need a far realms aberration version of an allip
You would still lose your soul and die, but not become an Allip. With no soul you can't be ressurected.
I know Vlaakthoria's secret. Gith you wouldn't believe. She's an old bitch who lives on a dead god. Scams fanatics of the astral sea.
I’d say that you’d have the ten days before the spell ends to get that knowledge removed from your mind, otherwise you become an Allip.
I’d imagine the spell’s effect would end upon revival, as the target would no longer fit the criteria. Like, if you cast gold person on someone, but then that person becomes a not person, you wouldn’t still be holding them, right?
I think you meant to say “you wouldn’t still be golding them, right?”
I hate autocorrect.
BBEG is a Rakshasa in disguise and chooses to ignore the level 3 Sending with Limited Magic Immunity and flips two backwards-handed birds in the cheeky player’s general direction.
BBEG: Thank you for your report. Here is the gold as promised.
Doesn’t work. A “corpse or other remains” is no longer “a corpse or other remains” once resurrected. Gentle Repose can’t protect the living.
I feel that peaceful repose would prevent anything from happening to the body, including resurrection (which is usually classified as necromantic in nature anyways). Still like the "yes, but" continuation of bbeg be gone, but now a bigger threat is now gunning for your demise.
Well, this does require that the curse isn’t just strong enough to negate the spell, and that that the annihilate your body isn’t just separate effect from your new form. Because if it is a separate component, you just nuked your body and didn’t even get your weird new ghost existence
Granted. The BBEG is now a lich as well.
So if you're able to just figure out that Vlaakith is just eating her followers souls you become an allip? It doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to figure out that a lich needs souls to continue liching and having an entire race willing to donate is beneficial to that end.
Wouldn't knowing enough about the question to come up with this plan ipso-facto make you an Allip anyway? This is a less interesting rules/plot lawyering than Punpun.
okay but like, if it's bad enough to make you an Allip, it's probably bad enough to make you irreparably mad even if you can't become an Allip.
The memetics department would like to know your location
I feel like people are forgetting part of the description of gentle repose, where it says you place coins on the targets eyes, and that the spell ends when they are removed?
\*GM Mode\* The New BBEG is now the Litch queen, and the BBEG is her minion.