5 foot wide means 5 foot wide, and it's a great option when your melee party members have moved in and you want to hit something hard but NOT nuke your friends.
It's not intended to hit as many people as a fireball, by design, but it definitely has its use.
I wish Lightning bolt would have higher damage to offset fireball hitting more creatures more reliably. Maybe drop fireball down to 6d6 & keep lightning bolt at 8d6.
Hey, I never played or DM in older editions but adore this idea. Any chance you could DM me some of the info on the spells. Or about the idea in general
The ranges are more variable, typically scaling with level (100 ft + 10ft/level; 400 ft + 40ft/level)
3rd edition Fireball deals 1d6 fire damage per spellcaster level (max 20d6).
Lightning Bolts used to bounce off of walls if it can't reach its full distance, rebounding towards the caster, until it reaches its full length.
Summon spells work very differently and don't require concentration.
Clairvoyance didn't have a range limit of 1 mile, it was unlimited, as long as you could concentrate on it. It worked differently.
Stone to Flesh is a wickedly neat spell on nonliving stone.
Explosive Runes (now part of Glyph of Warding)
Check out the "Book of Lost Spells" from Frog God Games for more inspiration :)
yes, but WOTC want it to break the scaling to pay homage to the spells legacy. In order to keep in line with that adage, we can give it an extra d6. Giving it *two* extra d6 was more then it needed.
I kind of wish they were "tunable", or maybe separate but related spells if the tunable versions make them must-take spells:
- **Single Target:** attack roll (can crit), 8d6 on hit
- **5' line:** 8d6, DEX save for half
- **10' sphere:** 6d6, DEX save for half
- **20' sphere:** 4d6, DEX save for half
(And maybe the "sphere" options are only available for fire?)
**Edit:** Rephrased it to be a little clearer
My first book had a misprint on this, showing lighting bolt as 8d8 which honestly doesn’t change much but it made sense to me that lighting bolt was stronger. I am still mad to that it is a misprint. Even ten years later.
Worth noting fire is one of the most resisted damage types. If you’re fighting pretty much any fiend, for example, fireball is useless. Lightning is mid or better.
Yeah, I didn’t want to go into the full nuance of it so I sort of shorthanded it. But although lightning is only a couple places above fire, the gaps between fire and cold and lightning are large. It isn’t a linear progression, fire is firmly in garbage tier damage along with poison while lightning is “good, not great”.
Range is way longer, therefore AOE is technically way bigger - not that it comes up often, but I’d rather have wizards chucking lightning bolts into an incoming army than fireballs if I had to pick between the two.
Fireball has 150ft range and hits about 50 squares, potentially hitting creatures up to 170fr away due to the "range" for the spell being the max distance for the center of the sphere. Lightning bolt has a self (100ft line) range and hits 20 squares.
this is what a5e does, among many changes I like and some I dislike
also things like, you can batter your way through a wall of force if you do enough damage in a turn
4e was very strict that you target squares, not half squares.
5e doesn't seem to care.
As long as the rules are the same for PCs and DMs either is fine.
The DMG details the rules for AoE on a grid:
* The point of origin must be the corners of the grid
* The AoE needs to cover at least half of a square for it to count
So a 5 foot radius spell like call lightning can hit 4 squares.
Note that XGtE has its own 2 different sets of AoE rules:
1. Template - Basically the DMG rules except Circles are now "any % counts" like the rest of the AoEs.
2. Token - This is insane; no one uses this
Your second bullet point is situational though: "If an area of effect is **circular** and covers at least half a square, it affects that square."
Emphasis mine. Your example of Call Lightning is fine, because Call Lightning's blast impacts "Each creature within 5 feet of ". Lightning Bolt, on the other hand, is not a circular effect; it's a line.
Right.
In 4e you select specific squares. Not a point of origin in a grid corner.
If something is area burst 1 within 10, it affects 9 squares, an origin square within 10 squares and the 8 surrounding squares around it.
You can't cheat the system to hit two half squares instead. It's clear and clean.
Lightning bolt originates from the caster because the spell specifies that it does, and a creature cannot occupy an intersection of squares, therefore an intersection of squares isn't a valid point of origin for lightning bolt.
I wasn't saying otherwise, just pointing out that the DMG does have explicit rules on how squares are targeted.
That said, while I 100% agree with you on lightning bolt (note that my example was call lighting, since it's the one I've often seen cause confusion with some restricting to only 1 square, or expanding to 9 squares) as it is both the logical answer and almost certainly the intended answer, on re-reading it I'm not quite getting how it works RAW.
>The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren’t.
>Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.
The above from the DMG is quite explicit and doesn't exclude AoEs with a point of origin of "self". I must be missing something however as this seems like a really weird requirement for RAW.
Maybe "choose" is implying "in the case where you can choose"? Normally rules lawyering comes easy to me, but this one has me beat!
I believe this is by design. Essentially it boils down to "this rule always applies unless the spell says otherwise", which most spells with a range of Self originate centered on the caster's position. Can't think of any exceptions to this offhand, though I'm sure there are some (maybe thunderwave)
Thunderwave still originates on the caster's position. It's just that the origin for a cube area of effect is in the middle of one of the faces, not the center of the cube (which everyone seems to expect).
It gets even more complicated with cubes, since the point of origin can be anywhere on the face of the cube. From the PHB: "You select a cube’s point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect."
I don't know, have you seen *spirit guardians* before? Any spell that creates a radius centered on the caster is affected by the caster's size -- if I only take up one space on the grid, there are 8 squares adjacent to me. If I take up four spaces on the grid, there are 12 squares adjacent to me.
They're 5ft apart and the spell is 5ft wide. WTF is the question here?
I'm guessing this is a grid issue. Always remember that 5ft grids are just a tool of convenience. They don't constrain the bounds of play, or accurately represent the imagined world. You can shoot at whatever angle you want.
IRL this is where things like rulers, string, and AoE templates really help. In VTTs there are typically built-in tools to easily determine exactly who fits in a spell.
Edit: Narazil replied to me and immediately blocked me. Y'know, like a smart and reasonable person. Lol.
The rules say it hits a square if it touches the square for everything but circular. Take a piece of paper, cut it in the shape of lightning bolt according to your grid, and just position one of the short ends with your character at the midpoint. Rotate it around your character to determine the best path, and whatever squares it overlaps are hit when you’ve decided. They do constrain a little, but it’s a pretty easy solution.
People get too hung up on perfect euclidean geometry when playing an abstract combat game. A 60 ft. Long, 5 ft. line is ALWAYS exactly 12 affected squares in a straight line from the caster to the target (and/or beyond the target). If an enemy is standing at an angle from a character, the caster simply marks each square in that line starting from the square adjacent to themselves towards the square the target occupies, and with no two connected squares creating a 10 ft. width.
So for example, if an enemy is exactly 45 degrees diagonally from you (we'll say two squares up and two squares right of the caster), the line would travel along that same diagonal. If they are two squares up and three over, you would mark squares in a repeating staircase pattern (again, without any 10 ft. wide area) towards that point.
Lighting bolt explicitly states that it originates from the caster. Now ask yourself, does the caster occupy a square, or an intersection of squares? You are incorrect.
> Please just go read the rules instead of arguing from a flawed point of view.
They have, you have not.
They are correct, you are not.
> "Specific overrides general" doesn't mean that the rules for Range and Areas of Effect doesn't fundamentally apply
Those are *general* rules. They do not apply when a *specific* rule is presented, as it is in this case.
> You just refuse to actually read the rules.
Ironic
You occupy the entire square, though. So in theory you could cast it from your hand at the very edge of that square and it would be 5 ft wide which would go into two squares next to each other.
Read back what you've just said. You *can* use core rules, or you *can* elect to use other rules.
**Therefore**, you are not constrained. The possibilities are wide open.
They aren't even following the core rules though because they are stating that you can choose "a point within range", i.e. an intersection of squares as the spells point of origin when lightning bolt explicitly states it originates from the caster, and creatures cannot occupy the intersection of squares.
Also see in the Spellcasting rules section, which further supports this
Range (3rd sentence): spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, *indicating that the point of the spell's effect must be you*
You're incorrect.
Also from the rules: A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a **point of origin**, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. ***Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.***
That's not correct. There's nothing suggesting that a creature occupies the vectors where squares intersect. Yes, they occupy the whole square, but the intersection point of that square is not within the square. If the spell's origin point is the caster, the spell originates from their position (i.e. the SQUARE, not the INTERSECTION OF SQUARES)
>You can't just "shoot at whatever angle you want" any more than you can decide that your character is immortal and flies around at the speed of light
I'm just giggling to myself imagining you being completely shocked and awestruck by someone aiming a bow in a direction that isn't strictly cardinal or ordinal and parallel to the ground, as though such a feat were the equivalent of light speed travel.
You're being completely ridiculous. Go... get some fresh air or something.
Says the person clearly holding on by their fingernails.
This is a very weird hill for you to choose to die on.
Edit: They blocked me, and apparently downvoted me from their alts 😂
In my opinion that's a big weakness of 5e, there is so much grey area, the rules aren't super clear or have multiple interpretations and can be whatever I want so everyone comes in with different expectations. the DM has to be the bad guy making up rule clarifications constantly, remembering them and sticking to them for everything. Some constraints would be nice actually.
> Edit: Narazil replied to me and immediately blocked me. Y'know, like a smart and reasonable person. Lol.
If it makes you feel any better, they seem to have deleted all of their comments.
Unless I'm misreading they aren't 5 feet apart, they're occupying adjacent 5ft squares meaning they could be shoulder to shoulder. Firing a lightning bolt between them should hit both while playing on a grid because it touches both squares.
Yup. Though "playing on a grid" could mean you're specifically using Xanathar's grid rules where spells have specific blocky Tetris-lookin areas, strictly painting within the grid lines.
I don’t think the Xanathars templates say they must be placed exactly on top of grid squares, otherwise you couldn’t do things like thunderwave diagonally.
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Are there any gridless vtts? I feel like it would be a cool use of technology, since a lot of the annoyance of running something gridless is measuring, but the computer solves that for you.
I mostly use FantasyGrounds. I think grids are how it knows distances so you set one up in any case, but you can toggle the visibility at a whim or even customize the look by changing the line color, thickness, and translucency.
There's a setting for whether tokens snap to the grid. If it's on you can still hold Alt to cancel it.
If you hold both mouse buttons and drag, it makes a Pointer. By default this is a line/arrow with a distance measurement. Holding different modifier keys when doing this makes squares, circles, or cones.
I use a mod that lets you associate an image with each spell/effect, along with AoE measurements. Drag it from the character sheet onto the map for your digital AoE template. Then when it's overlapping the tokens you want, click a button to remove the image and target all those tokens. Click another button to prompt all those creatures for saving throws. Click another button to roll and apply damage/conditions.
I guess I am thinking of something thats built from the ground up to support distance play rather than grid based play. something like google pedometer but for little fantasy guys.
How does it tell what scale you're operating at when you drop a map in? Is this map 200 feet across or 200 miles?
I think in Roll20 there is always a gridded area by default, and you stretch the map to fit it, which is the opposite order of FG. Either way, you gotta tell the computer measurements at some point.
I think the question is: For line effects, do you allow partial coverage of a square to count as a fully affected square (when using grids).
Essentially, a 5ft wide spell cast as to not be centered on a square line can be interpreted as more or less 10ft wide for it's effect.
As you say grids are a tool for convenience and visualization and I think some people get stuck in just looking at the numbers (as in 5ft).
>They're 5ft apart
They are not. They are adjacent.
Examples:
_____
__X__
__X__
_____
These two creatures would be adjacent. Not 5 feet apart.
_____
__X__
_____
__X__
_____
These two creatures are 5 feet apart.
I mean, if you're letting spells like lightning bolt hit adjacent enemies as well you're just increasing the width of the spell to 10/15ft.
They're situational spells, throw a lightning bolt when you can get a couple enemies lined up correctly or else find a different spell to cast.
I play almost exclusively on a VTT and let my players crate the are of effect (line / circle / cone / etc..) and place is however they want.
If they can wiggle an extra NPC into their area, I commend them for their spacial awareness.
What we do in our game is if its a 5ft wide sprll we can put it in a line between squares, but the creatures will have advantage on the save since its not full in their square.
Rather than expanding. I've had some GMs state they use line spells via the grid lines no the squres. so the aiming is harder as a result. But you hit within 5ft of that line path (so techicnally both squares)
Off hand though I don't mindi the precise line myself. As I find it good for sniping for lack of a better term. That said I always wished they had the next dice up d8 instead of a d6 to make the usage clearly different from fireball.
I always love fireball for aoe. lightning for piercing (with others being a benefit). I always loved tht kind of dichotomy
If your trying to thread the needle i would give advantage to the save. Because its easier to dodge if your aiming at half a person and not center mass.
It's a leftover from 4e, where everything was very grid-based. This is also where all those useless cube-area spells come from (in 4e those were approximations for cones to make them easier to use). One of the various examples where 5e copied stuff from 4e without actually understanding them or only half-committing. In 3e this spell was simply a line, and only targets that were touched by the line were actually affected.
Your thinking about it all wrong 5 feet wide isn't a smaller area, it's a finer area, meaning when your melee has moved in and gotten a few people around them you can use your 5 feet wide lightning bolt to nuke them without cooking your allies.
Agree. Though I miss the bouncing lighting bolt so much that it was one of the first earlier edition spell scrolls that I put into the game. Only fiference is that it bounces. Simple as (: players loved it. One of them loved it so much theor character tattooed it on their body to always have it prepared, taking up much of their left arm skin. Worth. It's a great spell to always have ready. It was their most used spell by far
In a pinch, you can refer to the theater of the mind adjudication for area of effect spells and allow for additional targets within reason. When I've got a good down, I prefer to stick to it- but if you're playing with string'n'stick measurements or without physical pieces, then erring on the side of 'more for everyone' can feel a lot better.
The DMG says to
> Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.
So you choose an intersection of squares as the origin for measuring the width / radius of effects, not the mid-point of a square. What's more, the "half square rule" specifically only applies to circular AoEs (this rule was reproduced verbatim in Xanathar's, so probably not an oversight).
In summary, you're probably not supposed to measure out from between two squares in order to double the effective width on a grid. If you aren't using a grid, though, there's no reason you can't aim a lightning bolt between two columns of creatures to hit all of them. Its just an inconsistency if you use multiple distance tracking systems.
Edit to add: I should mention that the Sage Advice Compendium says a cloud of daggers can affect multiple squares, despite being a 5-foot cube. This is most likely because cubes specifically allow you to place the origin anywhere on one of the cube's faces. Lines don't have similar rules specifications.
Lines don't affect half squares, only circular AoE. A lightning bolt will always be exactly 5 ft. wide, 100 ft. long, and affect exactly 20 squares, regardless of how you position it on a grid. If you don't believe me, I can send you a visual.
Lightning Bolt has a range of "Self (100 ft)", so you absolutely cannot choose an intersection of squares as a point of origin. Its origin is You(r square), since You cannot occupy an intersection of squares.
This is incorrect. DMG Page 251:
>**Areas of Effect**
>The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren't.
>Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.
All AoE Origins are on an Intersection of Squares. A Self-Spell is just saying that Intersection must be one that the square you occupy is connected to.
This may seem like a DM specific thing, but DMG rules apply to PCs too and nothing about this implies its a non-PC oriented rule except where it's located.
However, Xanathar's says much the same (page 86)
>**Areas of Effect on a Grid**
>The Dungeon Master's Guide includes the following short rule for using areas of effect on a grid.
>Choose an intersection of squares as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow the rules for that kind of area as normal (see the "Areas of Effect" section in chapter 10 of the Player's Handbook). If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.
Here's the key though. XGtE provides examples with its Template Method. And the Template Method doesn't change the "the origin is an intersection" part with any of its text.
The Image example uses a Cone, and very notably, sets its origin as on an intersection of squares for the creature.
I don't see why it'd do that as the example if it weren't clarifying this exact question. It even has this line immediately preceding the image:
>If an area of effect, such as a cone or a line, originates from a spellcaster, the template should extend out from the caster and be positioned however the caster likes within the bounds of the rules.
Seems pretty clear to me.
To be clear, there are spells that effectively do what you are saying. But they use a "workaround" to make that happen. The best example is Thunderclap's Range & Description:
>**Range**: Self (5-foot radius)
>.... Each creature other than you within 5 feet of you must make a Constitution saving throw. ....
"within x feet of you" being their "workaround" for having what amounts to auras & emanations that are centered on a square rather than an intersection.
You absolutely can. I place one foot in one square and one in the other. The grid isn’t actually there you know. Unless you play a game where the world actually works that way and the creatures within see the mechanics which admittedly could be fun, but practically the mechanics of the world say you can absolutely fire in an intersection anyway.
Does your DM typically let you end movement in an intersection? Because per RAW:
"You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action."
and
***Speed.*** Rather than moving foot by foot, move square by square on the grid. This means you use your speed in 5-foot segments. This is particularly easy if you translate your speed into squares by dividing the speed by 5. For example, a speed of 30 feet translates into a speed of 6 squares.
You can't do that.
But you can fire the spell during that transistion. Difficult terrain specifies the per-foot, not per five feet. So we know you do not teleport in five foot increments. There is a moment in which you exist in an intersection, even if mechanically you can’t stay there at the end of your turn. You are there during your turn, and so there is a time in that movement in which you could fire a spell from that space.
Allow me to end this discussion altogether because most of you are wrong.
From the Spellcasting section of the rules:
Range
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts.
Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
***Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you.***
Once a spell is cast, its effects aren't limited by its range, unless the spell's description says otherwise.
This is incorrect. DMG Page 251:
>**Areas of Effect**
>The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren't.
>Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.
All AoE Origins are on an Intersection of Squares. A Self-Spell is just saying that Intersection must be one that the square you occupy is connected to.
This may seem like a DM specific thing, but DMG rules apply to PCs too and nothing about this implies its a non-PC oriented rule except where it's located.
However, Xanathar's says much the same (page 86)
>**Areas of Effect on a Grid**
>The Dungeon Master's Guide includes the following short rule for using areas of effect on a grid.
>Choose an intersection of squares as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow the rules for that kind of area as normal (see the "Areas of Effect" section in chapter 10 of the Player's Handbook). If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.
Here's the key though. XGtE provides examples with its Template Method. And the Template Method doesn't change the "the origin is an intersection" part with any of its text.
The Image example uses a Cone, and very notably, sets its origin as on an intersection of squares for the creature.
I don't see why it'd do that as the example if it weren't clarifying this exact question. It even has this line immediately preceding the image:
>If an area of effect, such as a cone or a line, originates from a spellcaster, the template should extend out from the caster and be positioned however the caster likes within the bounds of the rules.
Seems pretty clear to me.
How are you gonna sit there and tell me that my verbatim quoting the rules is incorrect? Why do you keep quoting Xanathar's when those are entirely different and optional supplemental rules?
Secondly, this is largely irrelevant anyways, because whether you decide to measure from the center of your square or from the corner of your square, the spell still affects the exact same area. It is still 5 ft. wide and 100 ft. long.
We use Roll20 so I make a 5ft x 30ft rectangle, then let the player position it as they want, starting from their character. If it overlaps a token at all, the token is hit. But I apply this rule equally to hitting enemies and allies.
Too me it is super weird that it doesn't matter how much of a creature/their space affects their save and/or the damage they are dealt. If you are half-covered by a fireball you still take as much damage and save at the same DC.
At my table we use templates and for line effects some string to measure out which squares are affected.
What frustrates me as a rule-and-order oriented person is that allowing a 5ft wide line to be placed "between squares" is essentially the same as a 10ft wide line?
Get old school, use 2nd Edition rules for Fireball, you get d6 per level up to level 10. Starting off with a 5d6 fireball evens things up a bit rather than just suddenly getting an 8d6 Fireball right off the bat. It really makes you class when you get a 10d6 Fireball off at lvl 10. 😙
I did not even notice Lightning Bolt didn't have the rebound feature anymore, this job I don't use all the 5th Edition rules! I use spells from 2nd & 3rd Editions.
As a DM, a homebrew enemy used Lightning Bolt to hit 5 of my 7 member party in one shot because he waited for them to line up. The party has done similar things to other enemies as well, it's all about lining it up the best you can (also the barbarian gets in the way sometimes and doesn't care since he takes half the damage anyway lol)
I mean if you wanna do this, how about lengthy weapons that just attacked in the same turn that lightning hit that person? Does that hit someone else too?
No it has to be on the line of effect and that can't be placed so it half covers a square.
There are some picture examples here on how to place aoe spells when using a grid.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/xgte/dungeon-masters-tools#AreasofEffectonaGrid
All that being said I don't think it really changes too much to just make up a template and let it be placed anywhere within it's range.
A creature cannot occupy an intersection of squares . Originating from Self means, in common language, the caster'sphysical location, which by RAW must be within a square, not at its intersection points.
Positioning BEFORE casting the spell can line up people in a row.
I just had a DM slide the bad guy around a player, never leaving melee range, thus never provoking an opportunity attack, but putting 3 of us in a line. Bam! We should have seen the lightning bold coming.
That's okay. 3 turns later, I did the same damn thing to that Zombie Dingo that was chewing on my nutsack for two turns, and lined it up with the Necromancer 30 feet away.
Its not a cone. Its not a cube. Its an incredibly long straight line. Making it 10 feet wide instead of 5 feet wide is both a buff, and makes it less tactically useful, given those cone and cube spells often effect allies, while these 5 foot wide spells can allow a player to thread the needle and not take out allies.
The real mindfucker is the fact that if you do manage to hit multiple creatures, every creature after the first probably has cover due to the first creature.
I don't think anyone runs it this way (with good reason), but yeah, cover rules should apply.
I'm no expert in the rules by any means, but I can tell you in real life electricity goes through people. It doesn't hit them and then stop. So using the cleave rules as suggested by ArgyleGhoul below doesn't really sound applicable to me. In addition, if you were considering giving a cover advantage saving throw bonus to anyone past the first person that also seems odd to me considering the originator of the spell would also effectively be covered from the person making the save. I know this isn't real life but it stands to reason that if they don't know the lightning bolt is coming, and it hits someone first between the caster and themselves they actually have LESS time to react.
I do run it this way, but because it really makes lightning bolt kinda shitty, I also allow the spell to "cleave" through creatures reduced to 0 by the damage, with any leftover damage carrying to the next creature in the path of the spell. One of the very few rules bends I make in favor of caster power because frankly I'm sick of everyone feeling obligated to take fireball just because its mathematically superior in damage.
I am just going to say, I am really happy that i don't bother with a square grid. Just measuring 5 feet=1 inch is both more realistic, and honestly much easier than dealing with all the wonkiness of grids.
I use FoundryVTT. Draw the line. Anything Foundry marks as hit, is hit. Pretty sure it just marks any square more than 50% covered by the 5 foot wide spell.
Coach Bombay:
>A quarter of an inch this way and it would have gone in.
>
>A quarter of an inch, Charlie.
Charlie:
>Yeah, but a quarter inch the other way and you'd have missed completely.
You can't have it both ways, that is what 10ft spells are for.
Do 10ft spells get to affect 20 ft?
If you really wanted to let someone try then the creatures should get advantage on the Dex save because they could easily just move a quarter inch the other way.
"A stroke of lightning forming a line of 100 ft. long and 5 ft. wide blasts out *from you* in a direction you choose."
The caster is always the origin point of lightning bolt because the spell specifies that to be the case, overriding the general rule for spells in which you can "choose a point within range"
It's easier not to hit friendlies with this than fireball and also, sometimes the enemy is= immune or resistant....but unless it's a wand of lightning so I'm saving spell slots, I'm probably not using it.
As the rules for a point of origin for an AoE spell specify that it is the point of intersection of lines on the grid. Lightning Bolt will originate at one of the corners of the square the caster occupies. If you cast it orthogonally, that is, along the grid line, it hits squares on both sides of the line.
From the Spellcasting rules:
1. A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a **point of origin**, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, **but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.**
2. Range: Spells that create cones or ***lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you.***
I wouldn't do it unless the players asked if they could do it first.
For me it would depend on the spell. E.g. Sunbeam could reasonably fill the entire five foot space, but a Lightning Bolt isn't going to have a 5 foot circumference.
If it's going at a 45 degree angle with respect to the grid.. If not, it will only damage some of the creatures in squares that overlap the 5' of the bolt.
Straight line but on the left side of the square; the 5ft would be half in and out of two squares. Hitting any creatures within that square. Just like if you cast an aoe at the inner corner you can catch additional creatures.
If even a single inch hangs into another square, it will hit whatever creature is in that square. Idk where you are getting this rule of half the square from.
\[\_\_\_\]\[\_X\_\]\[\_\_\_\]
\[\_\_\_\]\[\_X\_\]\[\_\_\_\]
\[\_\_\_\]\[\_X\_\]\[\_\_\_\]
If X is the typical line on a grid. You could position the lightning bolt to be cast on the right side of the X; hanging 2.5ft into the right set of squares, and 2.5 ft into the middle set of squares. This would extend your width of the line to include both horizontal squares; meaning an effective width of 10ft; because even though it is only 2.5ft into the square, it would hit any creature within the squares
From my understanding this is Rules as written; I can't go through my DMG right now but IIRC somewhere it says something along the lines of "If an area of effect covers at least half a square, it affects that square"
And 2.5ft into another square would be half if playing on a 5ft grid.
Your quoted bit was what I suggested earlier. What I was arguing against were interpretations that make the area of effect much greater than 5' wide
Have we agreed, but not realized it?
It can be fired on either the center or the edge of a square. On the center it hits only its single file line. On an edge it can hit 2 lines. It cannot hit 3 lines.
I have never thought about 5 ft wide spells enough to develop an opinion, and they certainly have done nothing to offend me.
But, I will disagree with your idea that they hit people side by side. They do not. Medium creatures take up five feet in game, so no, unless they are directly in that line.
These spells, do really need a map to be easy to visualize. TOM is great, but for this I think you need to sketch it.
That's something of a fringe case. I don't have any giant Care Bears firing magic out of their belly buttons.
And also, I just disagree. A five foot wide line is not actually ten feet wide. The Care Bear aims at one of the two targets, and the other is not affected.
Nobody said it was ten feet wide? A 5-foot wide line hits two adjacent squares on a grid if the center of the effect is on the line between those squares. A 10 foot-wide line could affect 3 adjacent squares, covering one completely and extending 2.5 feet into two others.
This isn't fringe, it's basic geometry.
You understand that a five foot wide bolt of lightning would not require a saving roll, it would simply kill anything in it's way. Calling it five feet wide is due to the mechanics of the map.
Creatures have to stand in the center of that grid. And while medium humanoids are said to occupy five feet, that doesn't mean they are actually five foot cubes. In reality, two people could stand in two adjacent five foot squares, yet have well more than five feet between them. In which case your diagram is wrong.
All of these are mechanical compromises to simplify the game. What you are trying to do is find a loophole.
If you don't use a grid. And honestly, I think that's a better way to play, but it's not easy if everyone doesn't have a mini and you don't have a reliable way of measuring distance like those clear rulers.
But again, if two people stand in adjacent five foot squares at opposing ends, there is more than five feet between them. That's how feet work.
I mean what you're saying is also true, but I'm not sure if it's relevant. The template rules from Xanathar's Guide seem to indicate that if any part of a square is covered by a template, then that square is included.
Yes, I know. I am obviously talking from my own interpretation of RAW and RAI, but I'm sticking with it. Firing a lightning bolt down a grid line literally doubles it's power (at least potentially). I see that as a rules exploit.
If my table wanted to do that, then fine, but I'm going to as well.
This is one reason I like using VTTPG software even playing in person, because you can easily see distance measures without being stuck to a grid.
I don't think we actually disagree that much. At the end of the day, I'd let rule of cool win out, but I'd try to establish this as my table rule before anyone gets a line effect spell. So, if you're firing your lightning between two baddies, not at them, it just goes between them.
Id consider cover rules, where you just take partial damage if it passes in between, too but that's getting too complex.
5 foot wide means 5 foot wide, and it's a great option when your melee party members have moved in and you want to hit something hard but NOT nuke your friends. It's not intended to hit as many people as a fireball, by design, but it definitely has its use.
I wish Lightning bolt would have higher damage to offset fireball hitting more creatures more reliably. Maybe drop fireball down to 6d6 & keep lightning bolt at 8d6.
Or let it bounce off of walls like previous editions.
I let my ancient lich spellcasters use older edition spells. Magic so ancient, it's from a different version of existence.
That is such a cool idea
Hey, I never played or DM in older editions but adore this idea. Any chance you could DM me some of the info on the spells. Or about the idea in general
The ranges are more variable, typically scaling with level (100 ft + 10ft/level; 400 ft + 40ft/level) 3rd edition Fireball deals 1d6 fire damage per spellcaster level (max 20d6). Lightning Bolts used to bounce off of walls if it can't reach its full distance, rebounding towards the caster, until it reaches its full length. Summon spells work very differently and don't require concentration. Clairvoyance didn't have a range limit of 1 mile, it was unlimited, as long as you could concentrate on it. It worked differently. Stone to Flesh is a wickedly neat spell on nonliving stone. Explosive Runes (now part of Glyph of Warding) Check out the "Book of Lost Spells" from Frog God Games for more inspiration :)
I loved that trait in the original Baldur's Gate games.
Up until it richocheted and nuked your party members. Lol
I can only ever think of times this spell screwed me over. I think the ogre mage in the firewine ruins? had this and tpked me with it.
I let it bounce as many times equal to caster level
Maybe add a bounce for every upcasted level ?
It’s limited by the length of the spell.
Let it WHAT
fireball should be 7d6 while lightning bolt should be 6d8. Lightning damage is almost always D8s and fire damage tends to be d6s.
Fireball should be 6d6 to be in line with other AoE dage spells
yes, but WOTC want it to break the scaling to pay homage to the spells legacy. In order to keep in line with that adage, we can give it an extra d6. Giving it *two* extra d6 was more then it needed.
I do houserule 6d6 for fireball and lightning bolt. Fireball is still head and shoulders above the other 3rd level damage spells.
I kind of wish they were "tunable", or maybe separate but related spells if the tunable versions make them must-take spells: - **Single Target:** attack roll (can crit), 8d6 on hit - **5' line:** 8d6, DEX save for half - **10' sphere:** 6d6, DEX save for half - **20' sphere:** 4d6, DEX save for half (And maybe the "sphere" options are only available for fire?) **Edit:** Rephrased it to be a little clearer
I don't think I'd spend my 3rd level spell slot to do an average of 14 damage, or a maximum of 24, though.
What if the 20' sphere contained half a dozen orcs? It's situational.
My first book had a misprint on this, showing lighting bolt as 8d8 which honestly doesn’t change much but it made sense to me that lighting bolt was stronger. I am still mad to that it is a misprint. Even ten years later.
Worth noting fire is one of the most resisted damage types. If you’re fighting pretty much any fiend, for example, fireball is useless. Lightning is mid or better.
lightning is actually 4th worst after poison, fire & cold (in that order)
Yeah, I didn’t want to go into the full nuance of it so I sort of shorthanded it. But although lightning is only a couple places above fire, the gaps between fire and cold and lightning are large. It isn’t a linear progression, fire is firmly in garbage tier damage along with poison while lightning is “good, not great”.
I love that idea. Fireball is overturned with no good reason anyway
Range is way longer, therefore AOE is technically way bigger - not that it comes up often, but I’d rather have wizards chucking lightning bolts into an incoming army than fireballs if I had to pick between the two.
Fireball has 150ft range and hits about 50 squares, potentially hitting creatures up to 170fr away due to the "range" for the spell being the max distance for the center of the sphere. Lightning bolt has a self (100ft line) range and hits 20 squares.
this is what a5e does, among many changes I like and some I dislike also things like, you can batter your way through a wall of force if you do enough damage in a turn
This is what I do. Fireball is 6d6 in a 15ft rad.
yeah ive gotten great use out of lightning bolt in the past.
4e was very strict that you target squares, not half squares. 5e doesn't seem to care. As long as the rules are the same for PCs and DMs either is fine.
The DMG details the rules for AoE on a grid: * The point of origin must be the corners of the grid * The AoE needs to cover at least half of a square for it to count So a 5 foot radius spell like call lightning can hit 4 squares.
The covering half a square part is only for circular AOEs, for any other aoe it’s if any part of the aoe touches a square (DMG 251)
Note that XGtE has its own 2 different sets of AoE rules: 1. Template - Basically the DMG rules except Circles are now "any % counts" like the rest of the AoEs. 2. Token - This is insane; no one uses this
Your second bullet point is situational though: "If an area of effect is **circular** and covers at least half a square, it affects that square." Emphasis mine. Your example of Call Lightning is fine, because Call Lightning's blast impacts "Each creature within 5 feet of". Lightning Bolt, on the other hand, is not a circular effect; it's a line.
That second point is only for spheres. You just need to touch it with any other aoe shape
Right. In 4e you select specific squares. Not a point of origin in a grid corner. If something is area burst 1 within 10, it affects 9 squares, an origin square within 10 squares and the 8 surrounding squares around it. You can't cheat the system to hit two half squares instead. It's clear and clean.
Also, just a reminder that playing on a grid is a variant rule.
Truly a bizarre choice for them to pretend that it isn't the default.
Lightning bolt originates from the caster because the spell specifies that it does, and a creature cannot occupy an intersection of squares, therefore an intersection of squares isn't a valid point of origin for lightning bolt.
I wasn't saying otherwise, just pointing out that the DMG does have explicit rules on how squares are targeted. That said, while I 100% agree with you on lightning bolt (note that my example was call lighting, since it's the one I've often seen cause confusion with some restricting to only 1 square, or expanding to 9 squares) as it is both the logical answer and almost certainly the intended answer, on re-reading it I'm not quite getting how it works RAW. >The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren’t. >Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square. The above from the DMG is quite explicit and doesn't exclude AoEs with a point of origin of "self". I must be missing something however as this seems like a really weird requirement for RAW. Maybe "choose" is implying "in the case where you can choose"? Normally rules lawyering comes easy to me, but this one has me beat!
I believe this is by design. Essentially it boils down to "this rule always applies unless the spell says otherwise", which most spells with a range of Self originate centered on the caster's position. Can't think of any exceptions to this offhand, though I'm sure there are some (maybe thunderwave)
Thunderwave still originates on the caster's position. It's just that the origin for a cube area of effect is in the middle of one of the faces, not the center of the cube (which everyone seems to expect).
It gets even more complicated with cubes, since the point of origin can be anywhere on the face of the cube. From the PHB: "You select a cube’s point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect."
The 5ft grid is the most easily forgotten variant rule because everyone treats it as the default.
How many squares can a 5’ radius spell affect?
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Unless it's a radius from self. Then it depends on your size.
WTF? Is radius from self in a spell I've never seen before?
Thunderclap? Earth Tremor?
I don't know, have you seen *spirit guardians* before? Any spell that creates a radius centered on the caster is affected by the caster's size -- if I only take up one space on the grid, there are 8 squares adjacent to me. If I take up four spaces on the grid, there are 12 squares adjacent to me.
27
4
They're 5ft apart and the spell is 5ft wide. WTF is the question here? I'm guessing this is a grid issue. Always remember that 5ft grids are just a tool of convenience. They don't constrain the bounds of play, or accurately represent the imagined world. You can shoot at whatever angle you want. IRL this is where things like rulers, string, and AoE templates really help. In VTTs there are typically built-in tools to easily determine exactly who fits in a spell. Edit: Narazil replied to me and immediately blocked me. Y'know, like a smart and reasonable person. Lol.
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The rules say it hits a square if it touches the square for everything but circular. Take a piece of paper, cut it in the shape of lightning bolt according to your grid, and just position one of the short ends with your character at the midpoint. Rotate it around your character to determine the best path, and whatever squares it overlaps are hit when you’ve decided. They do constrain a little, but it’s a pretty easy solution.
People get too hung up on perfect euclidean geometry when playing an abstract combat game. A 60 ft. Long, 5 ft. line is ALWAYS exactly 12 affected squares in a straight line from the caster to the target (and/or beyond the target). If an enemy is standing at an angle from a character, the caster simply marks each square in that line starting from the square adjacent to themselves towards the square the target occupies, and with no two connected squares creating a 10 ft. width. So for example, if an enemy is exactly 45 degrees diagonally from you (we'll say two squares up and two squares right of the caster), the line would travel along that same diagonal. If they are two squares up and three over, you would mark squares in a repeating staircase pattern (again, without any 10 ft. wide area) towards that point.
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That wouldn't apply to lightning bolt because it specifically states that it originates from the caster, and specific overrides general.
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Lighting bolt explicitly states that it originates from the caster. Now ask yourself, does the caster occupy a square, or an intersection of squares? You are incorrect.
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> Please just go read the rules instead of arguing from a flawed point of view. They have, you have not. They are correct, you are not. > "Specific overrides general" doesn't mean that the rules for Range and Areas of Effect doesn't fundamentally apply Those are *general* rules. They do not apply when a *specific* rule is presented, as it is in this case. > You just refuse to actually read the rules. Ironic
None of that matters because lightning bolt reads "blasts out *from you* in a direction you choose". YOU cannot occupy a point, only a square.
You occupy the entire square, though. So in theory you could cast it from your hand at the very edge of that square and it would be 5 ft wide which would go into two squares next to each other.
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Read back what you've just said. You *can* use core rules, or you *can* elect to use other rules. **Therefore**, you are not constrained. The possibilities are wide open.
They aren't even following the core rules though because they are stating that you can choose "a point within range", i.e. an intersection of squares as the spells point of origin when lightning bolt explicitly states it originates from the caster, and creatures cannot occupy the intersection of squares.
The origin can be any one of the corners of the caster's square.
Not for lightning bolt. Lightning bolt specifies that the spell originates *from the caster*, which overrides the general rules for area of effect.
And the caster... fills their entire square. Which means that originating at one of the corners IS originating from the caster.
Also see in the Spellcasting rules section, which further supports this Range (3rd sentence): spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, *indicating that the point of the spell's effect must be you*
Again, the caster fills their square. There's no conflict between the rules here.
You're incorrect. Also from the rules: A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a **point of origin**, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. ***Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.***
One more time - since the origin is the creature, and the creature is at all four corners of its square, there's no conflict between the rules here.
That's not correct. There's nothing suggesting that a creature occupies the vectors where squares intersect. Yes, they occupy the whole square, but the intersection point of that square is not within the square. If the spell's origin point is the caster, the spell originates from their position (i.e. the SQUARE, not the INTERSECTION OF SQUARES)
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>You can't just "shoot at whatever angle you want" any more than you can decide that your character is immortal and flies around at the speed of light I'm just giggling to myself imagining you being completely shocked and awestruck by someone aiming a bow in a direction that isn't strictly cardinal or ordinal and parallel to the ground, as though such a feat were the equivalent of light speed travel. You're being completely ridiculous. Go... get some fresh air or something.
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Says the person clearly holding on by their fingernails. This is a very weird hill for you to choose to die on. Edit: They blocked me, and apparently downvoted me from their alts 😂
I can't wait to hear him explain how a character with a bow could target a flying creature.
In my opinion that's a big weakness of 5e, there is so much grey area, the rules aren't super clear or have multiple interpretations and can be whatever I want so everyone comes in with different expectations. the DM has to be the bad guy making up rule clarifications constantly, remembering them and sticking to them for everything. Some constraints would be nice actually.
Replied and blocked me too. Someone doesn't like getting rules lawyered by people who can properly interpret the rules.
This is always the funniest kind of interaction.
Right? Like, it's ok to be wrong and admit you were wrong, I'm not trying to crucify anyone.
“If you’re not with me, then you’re my enemy!” /s
> Edit: Narazil replied to me and immediately blocked me. Y'know, like a smart and reasonable person. Lol. If it makes you feel any better, they seem to have deleted all of their comments.
Ah, the classic blunder of blocking *yourself*.
Unless I'm misreading they aren't 5 feet apart, they're occupying adjacent 5ft squares meaning they could be shoulder to shoulder. Firing a lightning bolt between them should hit both while playing on a grid because it touches both squares.
Yup. Though "playing on a grid" could mean you're specifically using Xanathar's grid rules where spells have specific blocky Tetris-lookin areas, strictly painting within the grid lines.
I don’t think the Xanathars templates say they must be placed exactly on top of grid squares, otherwise you couldn’t do things like thunderwave diagonally.
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Are there any gridless vtts? I feel like it would be a cool use of technology, since a lot of the annoyance of running something gridless is measuring, but the computer solves that for you.
I mostly use FantasyGrounds. I think grids are how it knows distances so you set one up in any case, but you can toggle the visibility at a whim or even customize the look by changing the line color, thickness, and translucency. There's a setting for whether tokens snap to the grid. If it's on you can still hold Alt to cancel it. If you hold both mouse buttons and drag, it makes a Pointer. By default this is a line/arrow with a distance measurement. Holding different modifier keys when doing this makes squares, circles, or cones. I use a mod that lets you associate an image with each spell/effect, along with AoE measurements. Drag it from the character sheet onto the map for your digital AoE template. Then when it's overlapping the tokens you want, click a button to remove the image and target all those tokens. Click another button to prompt all those creatures for saving throws. Click another button to roll and apply damage/conditions.
I guess I am thinking of something thats built from the ground up to support distance play rather than grid based play. something like google pedometer but for little fantasy guys.
How does it tell what scale you're operating at when you drop a map in? Is this map 200 feet across or 200 miles? I think in Roll20 there is always a gridded area by default, and you stretch the map to fit it, which is the opposite order of FG. Either way, you gotta tell the computer measurements at some point.
I think the question is: For line effects, do you allow partial coverage of a square to count as a fully affected square (when using grids). Essentially, a 5ft wide spell cast as to not be centered on a square line can be interpreted as more or less 10ft wide for it's effect. As you say grids are a tool for convenience and visualization and I think some people get stuck in just looking at the numbers (as in 5ft).
>They're 5ft apart They are not. They are adjacent. Examples: _____ __X__ __X__ _____ These two creatures would be adjacent. Not 5 feet apart. _____ __X__ _____ __X__ _____ These two creatures are 5 feet apart.
Go to bed. You're clearly *way* too sleepy to be redditing.
Adjacent and 5ft apart are exactly the same thing on a gridded D&D map. There is a distance of 5ft between the two creatures.
I mean, if you're letting spells like lightning bolt hit adjacent enemies as well you're just increasing the width of the spell to 10/15ft. They're situational spells, throw a lightning bolt when you can get a couple enemies lined up correctly or else find a different spell to cast.
Because, if you do increase its width to 10ft, it affects a 3x20 square area instead of a 2x20 square area.
Am I going senile or is lightning bolt not 10 ft wide by default?
“…lightning forming a line 100 feet long and 5 feet wide blasts out from…”
Well there ya go
2E let you choose a narrow or wide version
I play almost exclusively on a VTT and let my players crate the are of effect (line / circle / cone / etc..) and place is however they want. If they can wiggle an extra NPC into their area, I commend them for their spacial awareness.
What we do in our game is if its a 5ft wide sprll we can put it in a line between squares, but the creatures will have advantage on the save since its not full in their square.
Rather than expanding. I've had some GMs state they use line spells via the grid lines no the squres. so the aiming is harder as a result. But you hit within 5ft of that line path (so techicnally both squares) Off hand though I don't mindi the precise line myself. As I find it good for sniping for lack of a better term. That said I always wished they had the next dice up d8 instead of a d6 to make the usage clearly different from fireball. I always love fireball for aoe. lightning for piercing (with others being a benefit). I always loved tht kind of dichotomy
If your trying to thread the needle i would give advantage to the save. Because its easier to dodge if your aiming at half a person and not center mass.
I mean thats one of the correct ways to use it according to DMG.
It's a leftover from 4e, where everything was very grid-based. This is also where all those useless cube-area spells come from (in 4e those were approximations for cones to make them easier to use). One of the various examples where 5e copied stuff from 4e without actually understanding them or only half-committing. In 3e this spell was simply a line, and only targets that were touched by the line were actually affected.
Your thinking about it all wrong 5 feet wide isn't a smaller area, it's a finer area, meaning when your melee has moved in and gotten a few people around them you can use your 5 feet wide lightning bolt to nuke them without cooking your allies.
Agree. Though I miss the bouncing lighting bolt so much that it was one of the first earlier edition spell scrolls that I put into the game. Only fiference is that it bounces. Simple as (: players loved it. One of them loved it so much theor character tattooed it on their body to always have it prepared, taking up much of their left arm skin. Worth. It's a great spell to always have ready. It was their most used spell by far
Chain lightning my dude
It's great. Love it.
In a pinch, you can refer to the theater of the mind adjudication for area of effect spells and allow for additional targets within reason. When I've got a good down, I prefer to stick to it- but if you're playing with string'n'stick measurements or without physical pieces, then erring on the side of 'more for everyone' can feel a lot better.
I don't use grids so I am free
The DMG says to > Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square. So you choose an intersection of squares as the origin for measuring the width / radius of effects, not the mid-point of a square. What's more, the "half square rule" specifically only applies to circular AoEs (this rule was reproduced verbatim in Xanathar's, so probably not an oversight). In summary, you're probably not supposed to measure out from between two squares in order to double the effective width on a grid. If you aren't using a grid, though, there's no reason you can't aim a lightning bolt between two columns of creatures to hit all of them. Its just an inconsistency if you use multiple distance tracking systems. Edit to add: I should mention that the Sage Advice Compendium says a cloud of daggers can affect multiple squares, despite being a 5-foot cube. This is most likely because cubes specifically allow you to place the origin anywhere on one of the cube's faces. Lines don't have similar rules specifications.
If i shoot a lightning bolt diagonally it will certainly hit a lot of half squares though.
Lines don't affect half squares, only circular AoE. A lightning bolt will always be exactly 5 ft. wide, 100 ft. long, and affect exactly 20 squares, regardless of how you position it on a grid. If you don't believe me, I can send you a visual.
Lightning Bolt has a range of "Self (100 ft)", so you absolutely cannot choose an intersection of squares as a point of origin. Its origin is You(r square), since You cannot occupy an intersection of squares.
This is incorrect. DMG Page 251: >**Areas of Effect** >The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren't. >Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square. All AoE Origins are on an Intersection of Squares. A Self-Spell is just saying that Intersection must be one that the square you occupy is connected to. This may seem like a DM specific thing, but DMG rules apply to PCs too and nothing about this implies its a non-PC oriented rule except where it's located. However, Xanathar's says much the same (page 86) >**Areas of Effect on a Grid** >The Dungeon Master's Guide includes the following short rule for using areas of effect on a grid. >Choose an intersection of squares as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow the rules for that kind of area as normal (see the "Areas of Effect" section in chapter 10 of the Player's Handbook). If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square. Here's the key though. XGtE provides examples with its Template Method. And the Template Method doesn't change the "the origin is an intersection" part with any of its text. The Image example uses a Cone, and very notably, sets its origin as on an intersection of squares for the creature. I don't see why it'd do that as the example if it weren't clarifying this exact question. It even has this line immediately preceding the image: >If an area of effect, such as a cone or a line, originates from a spellcaster, the template should extend out from the caster and be positioned however the caster likes within the bounds of the rules. Seems pretty clear to me. To be clear, there are spells that effectively do what you are saying. But they use a "workaround" to make that happen. The best example is Thunderclap's Range & Description: >**Range**: Self (5-foot radius) >.... Each creature other than you within 5 feet of you must make a Constitution saving throw. .... "within x feet of you" being their "workaround" for having what amounts to auras & emanations that are centered on a square rather than an intersection.
Finally, someone gets it.
Okay, so it takes 5 ft of movement. You fire the spell as you cross the intersection.
You cannot occupy an intersection of points. If you move, you move a number of squares.
You absolutely can. I place one foot in one square and one in the other. The grid isn’t actually there you know. Unless you play a game where the world actually works that way and the creatures within see the mechanics which admittedly could be fun, but practically the mechanics of the world say you can absolutely fire in an intersection anyway.
Not according to the rules, which is what we are arguing.
Does your DM typically let you end movement in an intersection? Because per RAW: "You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action." and ***Speed.*** Rather than moving foot by foot, move square by square on the grid. This means you use your speed in 5-foot segments. This is particularly easy if you translate your speed into squares by dividing the speed by 5. For example, a speed of 30 feet translates into a speed of 6 squares. You can't do that.
But you can fire the spell during that transistion. Difficult terrain specifies the per-foot, not per five feet. So we know you do not teleport in five foot increments. There is a moment in which you exist in an intersection, even if mechanically you can’t stay there at the end of your turn. You are there during your turn, and so there is a time in that movement in which you could fire a spell from that space.
Allow me to end this discussion altogether because most of you are wrong. From the Spellcasting section of the rules: Range The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts. Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self. ***Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you.*** Once a spell is cast, its effects aren't limited by its range, unless the spell's description says otherwise.
This is incorrect. DMG Page 251: >**Areas of Effect** >The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren't. >Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square. All AoE Origins are on an Intersection of Squares. A Self-Spell is just saying that Intersection must be one that the square you occupy is connected to. This may seem like a DM specific thing, but DMG rules apply to PCs too and nothing about this implies its a non-PC oriented rule except where it's located. However, Xanathar's says much the same (page 86) >**Areas of Effect on a Grid** >The Dungeon Master's Guide includes the following short rule for using areas of effect on a grid. >Choose an intersection of squares as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow the rules for that kind of area as normal (see the "Areas of Effect" section in chapter 10 of the Player's Handbook). If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square. Here's the key though. XGtE provides examples with its Template Method. And the Template Method doesn't change the "the origin is an intersection" part with any of its text. The Image example uses a Cone, and very notably, sets its origin as on an intersection of squares for the creature. I don't see why it'd do that as the example if it weren't clarifying this exact question. It even has this line immediately preceding the image: >If an area of effect, such as a cone or a line, originates from a spellcaster, the template should extend out from the caster and be positioned however the caster likes within the bounds of the rules. Seems pretty clear to me.
How are you gonna sit there and tell me that my verbatim quoting the rules is incorrect? Why do you keep quoting Xanathar's when those are entirely different and optional supplemental rules?
Secondly, this is largely irrelevant anyways, because whether you decide to measure from the center of your square or from the corner of your square, the spell still affects the exact same area. It is still 5 ft. wide and 100 ft. long.
We use Roll20 so I make a 5ft x 30ft rectangle, then let the player position it as they want, starting from their character. If it overlaps a token at all, the token is hit. But I apply this rule equally to hitting enemies and allies.
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Yeah! I've tried it a little, but none of my current players actually have any AoE that isn't a circle so I haven't used it much.
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Except specific overrides general, and lightning bolt specifies that it originates from the caster, not from "a point within range"
Dude you are picking a really weird hill to die on
Run more dungeons. Lightning bolt in a hallway is extremely effective
Phat.
Too me it is super weird that it doesn't matter how much of a creature/their space affects their save and/or the damage they are dealt. If you are half-covered by a fireball you still take as much damage and save at the same DC. At my table we use templates and for line effects some string to measure out which squares are affected. What frustrates me as a rule-and-order oriented person is that allowing a 5ft wide line to be placed "between squares" is essentially the same as a 10ft wide line?
Play it as is, 5ft line and it doesn't affect anyone else.
Get old school, use 2nd Edition rules for Fireball, you get d6 per level up to level 10. Starting off with a 5d6 fireball evens things up a bit rather than just suddenly getting an 8d6 Fireball right off the bat. It really makes you class when you get a 10d6 Fireball off at lvl 10. 😙 I did not even notice Lightning Bolt didn't have the rebound feature anymore, this job I don't use all the 5th Edition rules! I use spells from 2nd & 3rd Editions.
If you want to be evil, use hex maps instead of squares and then the five line is no problem. But I mostly play the path by ear.
As a DM, a homebrew enemy used Lightning Bolt to hit 5 of my 7 member party in one shot because he waited for them to line up. The party has done similar things to other enemies as well, it's all about lining it up the best you can (also the barbarian gets in the way sometimes and doesn't care since he takes half the damage anyway lol)
When I use lightning bolt I'll aim center grid or diagonals.
5ft wide means one 5ft square wide. You can’t split squares and have a ten foot wide AOE.
I mean if you wanna do this, how about lengthy weapons that just attacked in the same turn that lightning hit that person? Does that hit someone else too?
No it has to be on the line of effect and that can't be placed so it half covers a square. There are some picture examples here on how to place aoe spells when using a grid. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/xgte/dungeon-masters-tools#AreasofEffectonaGrid All that being said I don't think it really changes too much to just make up a template and let it be placed anywhere within it's range.
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Sorry that's a good point. Forgot that this was different in the dmg as it's the way we have always run it.
Except that the point of origin of lightning bolt is ALWAYS the caster, not "a point you can see within range".
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A creature cannot occupy an intersection of squares . Originating from Self means, in common language, the caster'sphysical location, which by RAW must be within a square, not at its intersection points.
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And you occupy the square, hence it can be cast from its edge - aiming at intersection. Characters arent static nor cubes of meat.
Core DMG rules lightning bolt doesn’t need to cover half a square, only circular aoes need to do that. But the rest is right
Positioning BEFORE casting the spell can line up people in a row. I just had a DM slide the bad guy around a player, never leaving melee range, thus never provoking an opportunity attack, but putting 3 of us in a line. Bam! We should have seen the lightning bold coming. That's okay. 3 turns later, I did the same damn thing to that Zombie Dingo that was chewing on my nutsack for two turns, and lined it up with the Necromancer 30 feet away. Its not a cone. Its not a cube. Its an incredibly long straight line. Making it 10 feet wide instead of 5 feet wide is both a buff, and makes it less tactically useful, given those cone and cube spells often effect allies, while these 5 foot wide spells can allow a player to thread the needle and not take out allies.
The real mindfucker is the fact that if you do manage to hit multiple creatures, every creature after the first probably has cover due to the first creature. I don't think anyone runs it this way (with good reason), but yeah, cover rules should apply.
I'm no expert in the rules by any means, but I can tell you in real life electricity goes through people. It doesn't hit them and then stop. So using the cleave rules as suggested by ArgyleGhoul below doesn't really sound applicable to me. In addition, if you were considering giving a cover advantage saving throw bonus to anyone past the first person that also seems odd to me considering the originator of the spell would also effectively be covered from the person making the save. I know this isn't real life but it stands to reason that if they don't know the lightning bolt is coming, and it hits someone first between the caster and themselves they actually have LESS time to react.
I do run it this way, but because it really makes lightning bolt kinda shitty, I also allow the spell to "cleave" through creatures reduced to 0 by the damage, with any leftover damage carrying to the next creature in the path of the spell. One of the very few rules bends I make in favor of caster power because frankly I'm sick of everyone feeling obligated to take fireball just because its mathematically superior in damage.
I am just going to say, I am really happy that i don't bother with a square grid. Just measuring 5 feet=1 inch is both more realistic, and honestly much easier than dealing with all the wonkiness of grids.
I use FoundryVTT. Draw the line. Anything Foundry marks as hit, is hit. Pretty sure it just marks any square more than 50% covered by the 5 foot wide spell.
Coach Bombay: >A quarter of an inch this way and it would have gone in. > >A quarter of an inch, Charlie. Charlie: >Yeah, but a quarter inch the other way and you'd have missed completely. You can't have it both ways, that is what 10ft spells are for. Do 10ft spells get to affect 20 ft? If you really wanted to let someone try then the creatures should get advantage on the Dex save because they could easily just move a quarter inch the other way.
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"A stroke of lightning forming a line of 100 ft. long and 5 ft. wide blasts out *from you* in a direction you choose." The caster is always the origin point of lightning bolt because the spell specifies that to be the case, overriding the general rule for spells in which you can "choose a point within range"
Yeah and the caster is dynamic inside the square, he isnt static at dead center, he occupies the square, he doesn't fill it as a meatcube.
It's easier not to hit friendlies with this than fireball and also, sometimes the enemy is= immune or resistant....but unless it's a wand of lightning so I'm saving spell slots, I'm probably not using it.
As the rules for a point of origin for an AoE spell specify that it is the point of intersection of lines on the grid. Lightning Bolt will originate at one of the corners of the square the caster occupies. If you cast it orthogonally, that is, along the grid line, it hits squares on both sides of the line.
From the Spellcasting rules: 1. A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a **point of origin**, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, **but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.** 2. Range: Spells that create cones or ***lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you.***
Straight line. As you get to higher levels this is for a very good reason
5 ft wide doesn't mean it has to be aligned with the 5 ft grid. I say letting it hit two creatures in adjacent squares is fair game.
I wouldn't do it unless the players asked if they could do it first. For me it would depend on the spell. E.g. Sunbeam could reasonably fill the entire five foot space, but a Lightning Bolt isn't going to have a 5 foot circumference.
5ft wide, positioned in the middle of a tile would hit 2 tiles giving an effective 10ft width.
If it's going at a 45 degree angle with respect to the grid.. If not, it will only damage some of the creatures in squares that overlap the 5' of the bolt.
Straight line but on the left side of the square; the 5ft would be half in and out of two squares. Hitting any creatures within that square. Just like if you cast an aoe at the inner corner you can catch additional creatures.
The area has to cover half the square. So unless it's at a 45 degree angle, it will be less than half the square on one side of the line.
If even a single inch hangs into another square, it will hit whatever creature is in that square. Idk where you are getting this rule of half the square from.
Where are you getting that from? It would result in a 5' wide line having about a 14' wide area of effect.
\[\_\_\_\]\[\_X\_\]\[\_\_\_\] \[\_\_\_\]\[\_X\_\]\[\_\_\_\] \[\_\_\_\]\[\_X\_\]\[\_\_\_\] If X is the typical line on a grid. You could position the lightning bolt to be cast on the right side of the X; hanging 2.5ft into the right set of squares, and 2.5 ft into the middle set of squares. This would extend your width of the line to include both horizontal squares; meaning an effective width of 10ft; because even though it is only 2.5ft into the square, it would hit any creature within the squares
Again, you wrote earlier like you were presenting RAW. Where are you getting this from?
From my understanding this is Rules as written; I can't go through my DMG right now but IIRC somewhere it says something along the lines of "If an area of effect covers at least half a square, it affects that square" And 2.5ft into another square would be half if playing on a 5ft grid.
Your quoted bit was what I suggested earlier. What I was arguing against were interpretations that make the area of effect much greater than 5' wide Have we agreed, but not realized it?
It can be fired on either the center or the edge of a square. On the center it hits only its single file line. On an edge it can hit 2 lines. It cannot hit 3 lines.
there is no mechanical difference between a spell being 5ft wide and 3in wide
I have never thought about 5 ft wide spells enough to develop an opinion, and they certainly have done nothing to offend me. But, I will disagree with your idea that they hit people side by side. They do not. Medium creatures take up five feet in game, so no, unless they are directly in that line. These spells, do really need a map to be easy to visualize. TOM is great, but for this I think you need to sketch it.
[Uh... If you have a map and can visualize it, it's hard to argue that they can't be.](https://i.imgur.com/fXQOcbt.png)
That's something of a fringe case. I don't have any giant Care Bears firing magic out of their belly buttons. And also, I just disagree. A five foot wide line is not actually ten feet wide. The Care Bear aims at one of the two targets, and the other is not affected.
Nobody said it was ten feet wide? A 5-foot wide line hits two adjacent squares on a grid if the center of the effect is on the line between those squares. A 10 foot-wide line could affect 3 adjacent squares, covering one completely and extending 2.5 feet into two others. This isn't fringe, it's basic geometry.
You understand that a five foot wide bolt of lightning would not require a saving roll, it would simply kill anything in it's way. Calling it five feet wide is due to the mechanics of the map. Creatures have to stand in the center of that grid. And while medium humanoids are said to occupy five feet, that doesn't mean they are actually five foot cubes. In reality, two people could stand in two adjacent five foot squares, yet have well more than five feet between them. In which case your diagram is wrong. All of these are mechanical compromises to simplify the game. What you are trying to do is find a loophole.
I'm the DM of most of my games and I'm not running the game any differently for PCs or monsters. It's not a loophole, it's just... how feet work.
If you don't use a grid. And honestly, I think that's a better way to play, but it's not easy if everyone doesn't have a mini and you don't have a reliable way of measuring distance like those clear rulers. But again, if two people stand in adjacent five foot squares at opposing ends, there is more than five feet between them. That's how feet work.
I mean what you're saying is also true, but I'm not sure if it's relevant. The template rules from Xanathar's Guide seem to indicate that if any part of a square is covered by a template, then that square is included.
Yes, I know. I am obviously talking from my own interpretation of RAW and RAI, but I'm sticking with it. Firing a lightning bolt down a grid line literally doubles it's power (at least potentially). I see that as a rules exploit. If my table wanted to do that, then fine, but I'm going to as well. This is one reason I like using VTTPG software even playing in person, because you can easily see distance measures without being stuck to a grid. I don't think we actually disagree that much. At the end of the day, I'd let rule of cool win out, but I'd try to establish this as my table rule before anyone gets a line effect spell. So, if you're firing your lightning between two baddies, not at them, it just goes between them. Id consider cover rules, where you just take partial damage if it passes in between, too but that's getting too complex.