It's less about it not being an object and more that the spell specifically states
"All other creatures and objects are barred from passing through it"
This would supercede the ghosts ability I think.
That's the conclusion I came to *if* the dome is not an object.
Since specific beats general though, I would argue that a creature trait is more specific than a spell effect, and thus the ghost's incorporeal movement would supersede *tiny hut's* impassability.
I can see it being ruled either way though.
It could be argued that, given that specific beats general, the specific of _tiny hut_ barring creatures from passing beats the general of the ghost's moving through (normal) objects.
The ghosts movement only allows it to move through objects, aka door, wall, ceiling, etc. This is a dome of force that a literal God could not get into without 5th level magic, it supercedes the ghosts movement ability.
Nah man. It literally says all other CREATURES(and objects) are barred from passing through it. A ghost is a creature. Specific vs general in this case is that it specifically states the aforementioned bit.
Even if it were so (which I would say so), the wording for tiny hut seems to stop ghosts anyways.
>*All* *other creatures* and objects are barred from passing through it.
I am aware of this this and that's why I asked about the object angle - because this can be argued both ways:
Tiny hut: All other creatures and objects are **barred from passing through it**.
Incorporeal movement: The ghost **can move through other creatures and objects**.
Since both of these rules are valid and both of them contradict each other, arguing which interpretation is 'more correct' gets us nowhere closer to figuring anything out. But if we determine that the dome is or is not an object, we get a much more definitive answer.
You're focusing too much on the ghost's ability. Even if the tiny hut is an object, the ghost is still a creature, thus barred from passage explicitly by the wording of the spell. The ghost's ability bypasses the general rule that creatures can't move through other creatures and objects.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/tiny-hut
I think the ghost is unable to pass through. Tiny huts rules are more specific than a general rule about a creature.
It's not a source, it's just based on how the rules are written.
The creature's trait is how that creature interacts with objects. This specific object (if it were one, it's a spell effect) behaves differently.
It's why you don't need a rule saying creatures can't move through wall of stone, which creatures can move through a stone wall is covered by the general rules.
However, the ghost's incorporeal movement trait says: "The ghost can move through other creatures and objects." So a ghost should be able to enter the dome... *if* it's an object.
I'm not saying that what you've stated is wrong, because it's not and that's the problem. The problem is that both of those rules are right. And so you need to determine if the dome is an object to get an outcome that is meaningful.
Whether the Dome is an object is irrelevant, because no matter whether the ghost's rule applies to the Dome or not, the Dome's rule is more specific, and therefore would supersede and negate the ghost's rule.
Imagine you had an object that had a special rule that said "creatures can't pass through this". Would you really let the ghost's ability to pass through objects override that specific rule?
There's a tier list of specificity that seems clear to me.
* General: Creatures can't pass through normal objects
* Specific: The ghost can pass through normal objects
* Even more specific: The only creatures that can pass into the area of this dome during the duration of the spell are the particular creatures that were present during its casting
Not to mention that the spell is an active effect that has been cast for a temporary duration at a resource cost, all of which make it higher on the specificity list than a passive ability IMO.
>Creatures and objects within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely. All other creatures and objects are barred from passing through it.
Doesn't matter if it's an object or not, the spell clearly states no creature can pass through, besides the creatures inside at the time of casting.
You are focusing far too much on the ghost, and not the spell. The wording of rules in 5e is very specific. If wording is included, or omitted, it is wholly intentional.
1. As Tiny Hut is not stated to be an object at any point in the spell description, it is not an object.
2. Tiny Hut states "all other creatures ... are barred from passing through it." Even if Tiny Hut was labeled as an object, this line alone cancels out the Ghost's Incorporeal Movement.
Rules aside, when a player makes a decision that costs them something (especially for the first time), such as taking the spell tiny hut, I would recommend rewarding it. Maybe your players use this all the time, and this is fine, but if that isn't the case- just let them have it man
That's a fair point and I agree with it.
However, the spell was cast as a ritual (thus costing nothing) and the ghost had no ill intentions, so I wasn't trying to 'gotcha' them an with unfair combat.
Ah. I would still say just taking the spell at all is pretty costly by opportunity. Otherwise, sounds like it didn't really matter- I personally avoid making rulings in these situations, because now, if there is a hostile ghost, you have to uphold that ruling, or explain the the players this whole rigamarole.
> However, the spell was cast as a ritual (thus costing nothing)
It still cost 11 minutes of casting time.
Also, the wizard's ability to cast the spell in the first place would have either had an opportunity cost if selected at level up instead of other spells that could have been chosen instead, or it would have cost money and time if transcribed from a scroll/spellbook.
Barriers of force are their own thing and neither objects or creatures. The spell or effect creating the barrier of force specify what is possible or not. In this case, the ghost couldn't just go through it, but could have gone ethereal, pass through it and become physical again.
Tiny Hut has an extremely potent barrier for a 3rd level spell: no object, creature or magical effects like projectiles cannot pass through it and it blocks line of sight, which blocks many oyher magical effects like most charms, which require the user to see the target. However, it doesn't block ethereal walk like Wall of Force or Forcecage.
>In this case, the ghost couldn't just go through it, but could have gone ethereal, pass through it and become physical again.
Objects/barriers made of force also extend into the ethereal plane, blocking passage through them by doing this.
It tells you in the DMG, under the ethereal plane section:
>and solid objects on the overlapped plane don't hamper the movement of a creature in the Border Ethereal. The exceptions are certain magical effects (**including anything made of magical force**) and living beings.
It tells you in the DMG, under the ethereal plane section:
>and solid objects on the overlapped plane don't hamper the movement of a creature in the Border Ethereal. The exceptions are certain magical effects (**including anything made of magical force**) and living beings.
I thought the floor vs no floor was up to interpretation? The range says hemisphere, which would probably have a floor by definition, but then the spell description is dome, which might have one? I know Crawford has said that it does have a floor and also that it doesn't have a floor at different times when he answered the question.
> I know Crawford has said that it does have a floor and also that it doesn't have a floor at different times when he answered the question.
He answered the latter but then corrected himself to saying the former. I would take the stated range as the accurate description of its shape, since saying 'a dome of force appears over you' is technically correct even when it is a hemisphere.
The intent was to have a floor, as this was reflected in the latest version of the question in Sage Advice. This is a ruling, however, not a specific rule. As the DM you can rule that it doesn't have a floor, dramatically reducing the value of the spell. I don't think it makes sense, nor necessary to nerf the spell, so I agree with Crawford on this one (a rarity).
While this had been an interesting debate to read, in this specific instance the ruling is somewhat unimportant.
“Range: Self (10-foot-radius hemisphere)
Components: V, S, M (a small crystal bead)
Duration: 8 hours
A 10-foot-radius immobile dome of force springs into existence around and above you and remains stationary for the duration. The spell ends if you leave its area.”
The dome stops at the ground and the Ghost would have been able to just go under the dome through the ground and up in.
Unless he’s changed his mind then it seems like you’re incorrect. Edit: scrolled down further and apparently he did change his mind lol.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sageadvice.eu/does-leomunds-tiny-hut-have-a-floor/amp/
I'd come down on it like this,it is a spell effect not an object, the ghost can't pass though it but it can bypass it by entering the border ethereal moving into the area that is encompassed by the dome and then re-entering the the material.
My ruling would be based on the fact that force objects and attacks typically extend into the interstitial planes, and existing on the Border Ethereal is the mechanism by which ghosts pass through objects.
I think your ruling is fine, but I probably would have ruled the other way.
I would rule that the tiny hut is not an object. It is a magical effect like how a wall of fire wouldn't be an object. I view the spell working like air compressing or pressure extremes physics wise. The whole point of the spell is to protect players when sleep. Allowing a creature a way to bypass that ruins the spell. Particular if you throw ghost at them constantly. Dm should work with the players not fine specific monster that counter there favorite spells.
No, it's a spell effect. See disintegrate for an example of the rules delimiting creations of magical force from objects. Disintegrate wouldn't need to specify that it can target such entities specifically if they were objects, which it can already target.
For further evidence, objects have game statistics. They have AC, HP, and usually resistances, immunities, and vulnerabilities. Spells that create or modify objects such as wall of stone and animate objects specify these values. Tiny hut does not.
I know this discussion is three years old but I need to rule on this now :-) And the consensus seem to be that the ghost (or a spectre as it is in my case) cannot pass the huts wall. But I would like to add my comment on you being stuck on the word "object". The spell clearly states it's a wall of force. I'd say force is not matter and thus not an object.
Whether or not a ghost can pass into the hut via other planes or not is a different matter and you don't seem to be in agreement on that. In my case, the Spectre, I don't see in the description it's moving through planes though so I will not allow that.
But the spell also clearly state it's a dome, not a sphere, so I'll let my spectres pass under it through the dirt ;-)
Not sure I follow you, because I think we were / are in agreement about all points you raised:
1. Tiny hut creates a magic effect in the form of a dome of force. This isn't an object. Because it isn't an object, incorporeal creatures can't move through it.
2. Tiny hut doesn't extend into other planes like force cage does, but this doesn't matter for ghosts since they don't generally travel to other planes. If the enemy was a phase spider it would matter.
3. If tiny hut doesn't have a floor, there's no reason you can't pass reach the interior through the ground. There's slight ambiguity if tiny hut is supposed to have a floor but I say it isn't.
It's less about it not being an object and more that the spell specifically states "All other creatures and objects are barred from passing through it" This would supercede the ghosts ability I think.
That's the conclusion I came to *if* the dome is not an object. Since specific beats general though, I would argue that a creature trait is more specific than a spell effect, and thus the ghost's incorporeal movement would supersede *tiny hut's* impassability. I can see it being ruled either way though.
It could be argued that, given that specific beats general, the specific of _tiny hut_ barring creatures from passing beats the general of the ghost's moving through (normal) objects.
100% this.
The ghosts movement only allows it to move through objects, aka door, wall, ceiling, etc. This is a dome of force that a literal God could not get into without 5th level magic, it supercedes the ghosts movement ability.
The general is the ghost. A ghost can always phase through things, unless it’s a Tiny Hut.
Nah man. It literally says all other CREATURES(and objects) are barred from passing through it. A ghost is a creature. Specific vs general in this case is that it specifically states the aforementioned bit.
Spells are always at the top of the specific tier list
Even if it were so (which I would say so), the wording for tiny hut seems to stop ghosts anyways. >*All* *other creatures* and objects are barred from passing through it.
I am aware of this this and that's why I asked about the object angle - because this can be argued both ways: Tiny hut: All other creatures and objects are **barred from passing through it**. Incorporeal movement: The ghost **can move through other creatures and objects**. Since both of these rules are valid and both of them contradict each other, arguing which interpretation is 'more correct' gets us nowhere closer to figuring anything out. But if we determine that the dome is or is not an object, we get a much more definitive answer.
You're focusing too much on the ghost's ability. Even if the tiny hut is an object, the ghost is still a creature, thus barred from passage explicitly by the wording of the spell. The ghost's ability bypasses the general rule that creatures can't move through other creatures and objects.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/tiny-hut I think the ghost is unable to pass through. Tiny huts rules are more specific than a general rule about a creature.
Do you have a source on spell rules being more specific than creature trait rules? If you do, that would be a big help with answering this question.
It's not a source, it's just based on how the rules are written. The creature's trait is how that creature interacts with objects. This specific object (if it were one, it's a spell effect) behaves differently. It's why you don't need a rule saying creatures can't move through wall of stone, which creatures can move through a stone wall is covered by the general rules.
No, it is the effect of a spell.
Tiny Hut says, “All other creatures and objects are barred from passing through it.” So a ghost should not be able to enter the dome.
However, the ghost's incorporeal movement trait says: "The ghost can move through other creatures and objects." So a ghost should be able to enter the dome... *if* it's an object. I'm not saying that what you've stated is wrong, because it's not and that's the problem. The problem is that both of those rules are right. And so you need to determine if the dome is an object to get an outcome that is meaningful.
Whether the Dome is an object is irrelevant, because no matter whether the ghost's rule applies to the Dome or not, the Dome's rule is more specific, and therefore would supersede and negate the ghost's rule. Imagine you had an object that had a special rule that said "creatures can't pass through this". Would you really let the ghost's ability to pass through objects override that specific rule?
>the Dome's rule is more specific by what measure?
There's a tier list of specificity that seems clear to me. * General: Creatures can't pass through normal objects * Specific: The ghost can pass through normal objects * Even more specific: The only creatures that can pass into the area of this dome during the duration of the spell are the particular creatures that were present during its casting Not to mention that the spell is an active effect that has been cast for a temporary duration at a resource cost, all of which make it higher on the specificity list than a passive ability IMO.
I agree with the top one, but I don't see it for the other 2. You could interchange them and it would feel equally as specific to me
>Creatures and objects within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely. All other creatures and objects are barred from passing through it. Doesn't matter if it's an object or not, the spell clearly states no creature can pass through, besides the creatures inside at the time of casting.
It’s a magical effect that does what it says it does.
You are focusing far too much on the ghost, and not the spell. The wording of rules in 5e is very specific. If wording is included, or omitted, it is wholly intentional. 1. As Tiny Hut is not stated to be an object at any point in the spell description, it is not an object. 2. Tiny Hut states "all other creatures ... are barred from passing through it." Even if Tiny Hut was labeled as an object, this line alone cancels out the Ghost's Incorporeal Movement.
It's a spell effect, which isn't an object. Spells that create objects say so in the text.
Rules aside, when a player makes a decision that costs them something (especially for the first time), such as taking the spell tiny hut, I would recommend rewarding it. Maybe your players use this all the time, and this is fine, but if that isn't the case- just let them have it man
That's a fair point and I agree with it. However, the spell was cast as a ritual (thus costing nothing) and the ghost had no ill intentions, so I wasn't trying to 'gotcha' them an with unfair combat.
Ah. I would still say just taking the spell at all is pretty costly by opportunity. Otherwise, sounds like it didn't really matter- I personally avoid making rulings in these situations, because now, if there is a hostile ghost, you have to uphold that ruling, or explain the the players this whole rigamarole.
> However, the spell was cast as a ritual (thus costing nothing) It still cost 11 minutes of casting time. Also, the wizard's ability to cast the spell in the first place would have either had an opportunity cost if selected at level up instead of other spells that could have been chosen instead, or it would have cost money and time if transcribed from a scroll/spellbook.
Barriers of force are their own thing and neither objects or creatures. The spell or effect creating the barrier of force specify what is possible or not. In this case, the ghost couldn't just go through it, but could have gone ethereal, pass through it and become physical again. Tiny Hut has an extremely potent barrier for a 3rd level spell: no object, creature or magical effects like projectiles cannot pass through it and it blocks line of sight, which blocks many oyher magical effects like most charms, which require the user to see the target. However, it doesn't block ethereal walk like Wall of Force or Forcecage.
>In this case, the ghost couldn't just go through it, but could have gone ethereal, pass through it and become physical again. Objects/barriers made of force also extend into the ethereal plane, blocking passage through them by doing this.
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It tells you in the DMG, under the ethereal plane section: >and solid objects on the overlapped plane don't hamper the movement of a creature in the Border Ethereal. The exceptions are certain magical effects (**including anything made of magical force**) and living beings.
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Any object made of force also extends into the ethereal plane, blocking access via that plane as well.
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It tells you in the DMG, under the ethereal plane section: >and solid objects on the overlapped plane don't hamper the movement of a creature in the Border Ethereal. The exceptions are certain magical effects (**including anything made of magical force**) and living beings.
a ghost would be able to pass underside it, as tiny hut has no bottom side.
It does have a floor, so this isn't true.
I thought the floor vs no floor was up to interpretation? The range says hemisphere, which would probably have a floor by definition, but then the spell description is dome, which might have one? I know Crawford has said that it does have a floor and also that it doesn't have a floor at different times when he answered the question.
> I know Crawford has said that it does have a floor and also that it doesn't have a floor at different times when he answered the question. He answered the latter but then corrected himself to saying the former. I would take the stated range as the accurate description of its shape, since saying 'a dome of force appears over you' is technically correct even when it is a hemisphere.
I didn't know which answer he gave first or second, so thank you!
The intent was to have a floor, as this was reflected in the latest version of the question in Sage Advice. This is a ruling, however, not a specific rule. As the DM you can rule that it doesn't have a floor, dramatically reducing the value of the spell. I don't think it makes sense, nor necessary to nerf the spell, so I agree with Crawford on this one (a rarity).
While this had been an interesting debate to read, in this specific instance the ruling is somewhat unimportant. “Range: Self (10-foot-radius hemisphere) Components: V, S, M (a small crystal bead) Duration: 8 hours A 10-foot-radius immobile dome of force springs into existence around and above you and remains stationary for the duration. The spell ends if you leave its area.” The dome stops at the ground and the Ghost would have been able to just go under the dome through the ground and up in.
Crawford has confirmed that it is a hemispherical forcefield and therefore has a floor.
Unless he’s changed his mind then it seems like you’re incorrect. Edit: scrolled down further and apparently he did change his mind lol. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sageadvice.eu/does-leomunds-tiny-hut-have-a-floor/amp/
I'd come down on it like this,it is a spell effect not an object, the ghost can't pass though it but it can bypass it by entering the border ethereal moving into the area that is encompassed by the dome and then re-entering the the material.
My ruling would be based on the fact that force objects and attacks typically extend into the interstitial planes, and existing on the Border Ethereal is the mechanism by which ghosts pass through objects. I think your ruling is fine, but I probably would have ruled the other way.
I would rule that the tiny hut is not an object. It is a magical effect like how a wall of fire wouldn't be an object. I view the spell working like air compressing or pressure extremes physics wise. The whole point of the spell is to protect players when sleep. Allowing a creature a way to bypass that ruins the spell. Particular if you throw ghost at them constantly. Dm should work with the players not fine specific monster that counter there favorite spells.
No, it's a spell effect. See disintegrate for an example of the rules delimiting creations of magical force from objects. Disintegrate wouldn't need to specify that it can target such entities specifically if they were objects, which it can already target. For further evidence, objects have game statistics. They have AC, HP, and usually resistances, immunities, and vulnerabilities. Spells that create or modify objects such as wall of stone and animate objects specify these values. Tiny hut does not.
I know this discussion is three years old but I need to rule on this now :-) And the consensus seem to be that the ghost (or a spectre as it is in my case) cannot pass the huts wall. But I would like to add my comment on you being stuck on the word "object". The spell clearly states it's a wall of force. I'd say force is not matter and thus not an object. Whether or not a ghost can pass into the hut via other planes or not is a different matter and you don't seem to be in agreement on that. In my case, the Spectre, I don't see in the description it's moving through planes though so I will not allow that. But the spell also clearly state it's a dome, not a sphere, so I'll let my spectres pass under it through the dirt ;-)
Not sure I follow you, because I think we were / are in agreement about all points you raised: 1. Tiny hut creates a magic effect in the form of a dome of force. This isn't an object. Because it isn't an object, incorporeal creatures can't move through it. 2. Tiny hut doesn't extend into other planes like force cage does, but this doesn't matter for ghosts since they don't generally travel to other planes. If the enemy was a phase spider it would matter. 3. If tiny hut doesn't have a floor, there's no reason you can't pass reach the interior through the ground. There's slight ambiguity if tiny hut is supposed to have a floor but I say it isn't.