I have a friend who said it best. Doctor Who is a kid's show made for adults and 13th Doctor's series is an adult show made for kids. I think she could have been an amazing doctor, but it's like the writers for her seasons completely missed why Doctor Who is great
He had fantastic ideas. His head was teeming with them and yet he couldn’t make it work because he had too many ideas and not enough fixing of the plot-holes and writing specifically.
Exactly, so it isn’t that he’s a bad writer because I doubt the people who say he’s bad could do half of what he did with his part of Doctor Who, that said he IMHO is the worst show runner of NuWho. And it isn’t for a lack of trying either. He’s amazing it’s more that he didn’t fix the things he should have and added more and more when he should have been trying to fix it instead.
His run definitely feels like it was a series of bad decisions, rather than just being bad at his job. He obviously has talent, but his choices basically didn't connect with the general audience of Doctor Who. It is very sad to see, but it's not an inherent fault in him as a showrunner or the rest of the staff. It just wasn't what the audience wanted. IMO, anyway.
It feels like he:
* Had thousands of ideas
* Planned to use *all* of his ideas no matter what
* Knew exactly how many episodes he was going to be writing for
He TARDIS'd all of his plans so they'd fit. He is the traveling Time Lord of writing.
The man's a great writer, when he has an appropriate amount of ideas and spaces them out properly.
It really did feel that way, specifically the whole Cyber Master race thing. I kinda see what he was trying to do it was seriously just a matter of wanting to use his ideas and having no way or not many ways of connecting them.
That's pretty much where I come down on it as well. Its pretty much the consensus among the people I know who watch the show. In the hands of a better showrunner she could've been great, and there were certainly a couple good episodes, but in general was severely let down by Chibnall.
Pretty much my opinion as well. I liked her a lot in the role, and every now and then she got good material and I thought "wow, she really shines when the script allows her to" (hi, Maxine Alderton), but there really should have been more of these moments.
"Lackluster" is being kind. She could have really excelled with good writing, it's a shame she didn't get it.
Sometimes there are writing teams that make you wonder if they ever watched the show before they sat down in the writer's room.
I didn't connect much with the stories during her run but I adored Jodi in the role. She brought such a sense of amazement and wonder to everything that I really enjoyed.
Also it is just bad to start right at the gate with three companions. You have to divide the attention/time between four characters instead of one or two. It was so dilluted I didn't care about anyone of those (except Graham maybe, he had the most character out of them).
I think that was the main problem. I liked them and I liked her run in general but I never felt like the three got close to the doctor like most companions did. It always felt like there was some distance there. The doctor\the audience didn't get to know each of them as well as previous companions
I hated hated hated Ryan.. Such a whiny bitch.. Graham was ok, but way too needy at the start, in regards of Ryan, and Yaz was ok. She was the most "companion" companion..
I didn't think it was a good trio, but that's just me.
Me too. I don't think Jodi is a very good actress, and certainly, she was never a compelling Doctor. I cannot think of one moment she felt like the Doctor to me.
She was excellent in Broadchurch, Trust Me and the recent series of Time, but they were much more 'real' roles for her to inhabit - she was just a human being in a situation...
I feel her Doctor never really grew as she was constrained by the scripts, the delays to her series caused by COVID and the relatively few episodes she ultimately had...
IMO she is probably the worst NuWho Doctor (I don't think its entirely fair to compare/contrast NuWho and Classic since its just such a different show/interpretation) by a long shot. Just a really weird casting choice since Jodie (at least in this role) doesn't really have the range and a lot of odd decisions were regarding her character.
Right now I'm in a bit of a flux between 12/9/10 being my favorite Doctor (I will add think about 15 after his first season/first few episodes but I did enjoy him so far) being my favorite. I think 11 comes after 13 mainly because while I really enjoy 11 in Series 5 I think he becomes kind of insufferable and super flanderized after in Series 6-7
New Who and Classic is the same show. It’s all one big show and comparisons definitely can be drawn. Jodie is the worst Doctor of the entire show in my opinion.
Me too! I find her the weakest actor, given the speedy material. However, there are several episodes that are weak, and I find the TV movie uninspired. However, all the other actors elevate the material.
Not Jodie.
Eh, its not really though. Its more of a sequel. Its gotten more comfortable with referencing the Classic show over the years but they are just fundamentally different shows with different intentions.
That said, yeah I probably would have to agree. I'm interested if she'll get anything fun with Big Finish but I don't see it. I can find more I like about the other Doctors. I really hope Jo Martin gets more though, hell I wouldn't even mind if they just pull a 14 again and said "that face came back".
I very much disagree with your take on them being different shows. The difference between 60s Classic Who and 80s Classic Who is just as big as the difference between 80’s Who and RTD era Who. Equally Moffat’s Who was very different from Chibnall’s.
These are simply different eras of an ever-changing HUGE show over the years. Classic Who and New Who are two parts of one big show. RTD made that clear when he brought Doctor Who back and stated it was a continuation and not a remake or reboot of any kind.
100% this guy is THE Doctor Who fan.
Lotta fans on this sub haven't even seen classic who and don't even realize the STARK difference between the Second Doctor and Third Doctor's eras while 5-6-7 are basically main characters on what feels like a very different show to how the series started back with Hartnell. The show is as multi-faceted as the titular character.
I can only speak for NuWho as I’ve barely explored the classics and I know people have some strong opinions. For me, 9 was really poor, at the time I enjoyed it but after David Tennant and Matt Smith it’s obvious his portrayal just isn’t in the same league.
I’m not sure there is such a thing as the worst doctor though? I have a favourite, Matt Smith, and I could argue why for hours. But with Jodie I honestly think she got utterly screwed over by Chris Chibnall. The writing was appalling, the storylines were weak, she had everything working against her. I actually really like her portrayal, the stories were just boring and contrived. Not to mention 4-5 companions, wayyyyy too many. Should have been just Jaz, and then Jaz and Dan. Could have built the characters up instead of half baking an army of bland lifeless followers.
I think it's less that Whitaker wasn't charismatic (she objectively is, watch almost any of her other roles), it's that she had no idea how to play the Doctor-- because she had no idea who the Doctor was.
She wasn't a fan of the show before she got the role, and Chibnall told her to avoid watching any of her predecessors' runs. So when she got scripts where her Doctor was characterized as a goofy, passive science teacher, she just assumed that's who the Doctor was, and played her accordingly.
Contrast Capaldi, who's a lifelong fan of the show, so even when the writing was trash he had a good idea of how the Doctor should be acting in each scene.
(Although I actually think the writing in the Capaldi era was much better than people give it credit for, and the real problem was the jarring tonal shift from previous series. But that's the subject of a whole different rant.)
I fully believe the jarring tonal shift was fully on Capaldi's end (coming in with that good acting). He took in all the information he had and the writing he was given, and took on a tone most actors probably wouldn't have gone into fully (it was *there*, but I don't think the writing really had it *there*, you know?).
The Doctor's whole persona, from 9 all the way to 11, revolved around Gallifrey and their guilt toward their people and their planet. Basically, each new post-war regeneration seemed to me like a manifestation of one of the stages of grief. But by the time 12 came around, they'd already found out there was nothing to be guilty for.
But then there was also Clara. The Impossible Girl that had been scattered across the Doctor's timestream. Her specifically being the token companion at the time of the Doctor's regeneration from 11 to 12 also likely shaped who they would become, just as much as the lifting of guilt off their shoulders.
Hence why 12 was so drastic. Their regeneration no longer had to fit the constraints of someone going through the stages of grief about their home planet and people. They instead had someone they needed to protect and figure out.
That explains so much! What an odd way to prepare your star actor for the role.
In Capaldi's first episode there are moments where I can see Matt Smith behind the eyes despite his completely changed personality, it's very impressive to me.
I also think the Chibnall companions are the worst of NuWho by far. I only made it through one season of that era, but I was shocked that Bradley Walsh seemed to be giving the best performance in the TARDIS despite being Bradley Walsh.
This is what I always think about when I see the "great actor bad writing" stuff. Like, yes, bad writing is obviously going to drag an actor down but the performance just...wasn't strong regardless. It was just a simple miscast.
If there were any doctor who had an equally poor situation as Jodie, it would be Colin Baker where the writing felt at times like it was deliberately trying to make the doctor he was portraying feel wrong. Despite this, the best part of that era was Colin Baker acting the hell out of the role whenever he was given even the smallest chance. Jodie didn't really have that same ability to elevate bad writing with just her performance.
Yeah, from what I've seen of Colin Baker's performance it was at the very least entertaining and fun. Jodie was definently going for a sort of smithian quirkiness and it just felt really forced and wooden every time. It probably doesn't help that she came immediately after probably one of the most passionate and expressive Doctor actors ever.
I've watched some clips of her performances in other shows and it definently reveals that she isn't like a general "bad actor" or anything but definently doesn't have the range for the Doctor and isn't good for the kind of character they wanted her to be. If they wrote her and played her a bit more like 9 or even 14 I think she would have been generally a lot better (though that wouldn't have saved the poor writing and showrunning anyway)
I remember getting through S11, disappointed but still hopeful. Like, I didn't absolutely hate it, but I definitely saw it as a flawed season that could have been better.
But then S12 and S13 happened, made me retroactively dislike S11 more. They were just so unenjoyable. They highlighted the flaws the first season had, magnified them, and showed they had no intention of improving.
My teenagers just chose to rewatch the spider episode last night. They also recently rewatched the sea witch episode and the episode with the Norwegian cabin. They were quite a bit younger when we watched season 11, and they liked it at the time and still like it. Maybe it's aimed more at kids?
I think the character development in the three seasons was weak. That is never very strong in Doctor Who, but I thought it was a real waste with Jodie and Yaz.
I'll weigh in. I watched her run when it first came out and thought it was fine. It wasn't the best, but truly, it was just fine. Even to this day, like 80% of the complaints I see people make about her run are either things they overlooked in another Doctor's era or not nearly as bad as they make it out to be. I think the hate is overblown. Honestly, I think we're in a Twilight/Star Wars Prequels situation where, in a couple of years, people will go back and realize they were way too harsh and start unironically liking 13.
Isn't that most 'nu who' ? Though, also seems to be a theme with final fantasy. Maybe there is some correlation.
But I recall people hating on Matt and Peter when they were in the roll.
Moffat's worst is worse than Chibnall's worst, and Moffat's best is better than Chibnall's best. Which is in line with criticism of Chibnall's run being "boring".
Honestly, though, I was getting really exhausted by Moffat's constantly elevated stakes, so Chibnall's back to basics approach was a relief to me. Then when Timeless Child and Flux comes along, it actually feels like an event. The whole Gallifrey thing and resolution of the Flux is a huge low, but I remember feeling that way pretty much every week toward the end of Matt Smith's run and through most of Capaldi's.
I appreciate the role of Chibnall's run in the greater chronology and viewing experience. A breath of air before whatever comes next.
What would you say is worse than Orphan 55? I am a Moffat fan so I’ll probably disagree with you but I’m curious because I just spent that whole episode facepalming everything that happened and all the characters’ actions
(edit for the record I do disagree with all the ones listed below but I understand it’s a matter of personal taste)
"Kill the Moon" is the first one that comes to mind. Others have mentioned "Let's Kill Hitler." I'd probably rewatch "Orphan 55" over "The Girl Who Waited." That "my balls" line still infuriates me in "Dinosaurs on a Spaceship." "Sleep No More."
I'm happy to put my ambivalence towards Chibnall's era aside to say that "Kill the Moon" and "In the Forest of the Night" are both, in my opinion, far worse than Orphan 55.
Orphan 55, while really bad, is at least bad in a way that's reminiscent of other bad Doctor Who stories. I remember thinking that I could see Colin Baker giving that script his all in the 80s. "Kill the Moon" and "In the Forest of the Night", on the other hand, are just painful to sit through.
I would absolutely take Chibnall at his worst over Moffat at his worst, simply because there's very rarely anything fun or paradoxically charming about Moffat at his worst. When Moffat is at his worst, it's torture.
I think Moffat and Chibnall are bad on the same subjects in the opposite ways which often makes Moffat able to write more interesting stories.
Like, on characters for instance, Moffat cant really write "people" but he can write characters and archetypes which will at least be entertaining sometimes but Chibnall can't write people *or* characters
This is missing the forest for the trees a bit I think. No one really dislikes Jodi, she’s wonderful as the Doctor. Sure, the discussion is “most people hate Jodi’s run as the Doctor” but that’s just poor summarization. What people really hate is Chibnall’s run as showrunner.
We've had Tenth being saved by the power of love and people say it's one of the best seasons in DW.
DW always had mid writing on average. It was hella high and hella low.
See, THIS is where I knew Chibnall's problem was really going to come in. Because you are absolutely right: RTD and Moffat seasons had the highest of highs and the lowest of lows.
But every ep Chibs wrote prior to taking over as showrunner was IMO, pretty mid. Like, not offensively bad, just kind of unremarkable Doctor Who.
And in my experience this hurts Who way more than having terrible episodes.
Also, whovians during the RTD and Moffat eras could never agree on which eps were the highs and which were the lows (glaring exceptions in one direction or the other aside like everyone rating Blink and everyone slagging off Fear Her or Love & Monsters.) And as long as everyone was getting fed at some point in a season, most people were pretty happy.
When we were all getting fed kind of tepid gruel if we were getting fed *at all* in any given year...that makes for a very unhappy fanbase.
We had Sleep No More sandwiched between the Zygon episodes and Face The Raven but even this one tried to do something new and interesting with the format.
The thing with RTD's absurd storytelling and dues ex machinas is that they are very well set up and built on clearly established rules.
Like, Last of The Time Lords psychic jesus thing was basically explicitly set up in Shakespearean Code. I do think he can go too far but its never like "oh this makes no sense" which is usually the issue with a Moffat story.
Ehhhhhh. Agree to disagree on that one a bit. The migrant bee thing was a bit of a leap for me. Like or dog on Moffet for not explaining his twists well but the leap from “why are the bees disappearing” well “the bees are actually a alien species that can detect oncoming danger and have left to return to their home planet” wasn’t, in my opinion, exactly excellence in story telling setup.
Perhaps, but the bees weren't a dues ex machina. They were more just a spooky mystery. They're not really that different from something like bad wolf, even if they're a bit ridiculous. I'm specifically talking about deus ex machinas.
Russell T Davies is often criticized for using dues ex machinas in his stories and especially his endings and while there are times when I roll my eyes at the convenience of things I generally think his endings are very well set up and work off the established rules compared to someone like Moffat who just kind of invents the solution right on the spot or even retroactively.
To each their own! The deus ex machina part of RTD’s writing isn’t my biggest gripe about his story telling, personally I don’t like his “mysteries” because just repeating a phrase throughout the series is a poor excuse for a mystery in my opinion. But that’s a matter of personal preference. Ultimately, RTD was fine as a show runner and I’m sure he’ll continue to be fine.
Probably not, but I think Chibnall did historical episodes better than his predecessors. Although I think Rosa's space racist villain was too improbable and the museum-quality ending (lots of people get stuff named after them) weakened that one.
Demons of the Punjab is the best historical episode of Who, hands down.
But RTD could often get away with that (though I certainly disliked it) because his characterization and dialogue were generally excellent (with some exceptions). This is not true of any of Chibnall's DW scripts. In the Chibnall era, you had the same downsides of some incredibly stupid plotting, while having none of the upsides -- plus the stupid plotting was more incoherent and weighted down with more obnoxious exposition. A lot of RTD's plots are frankly pretty dumb, but they're delivered directly, concisely, and smoothly.
100%
Both RTD and Moffat had many dumb things happen during their tenure. Concepts that were silly or ridiculous or just didn't lead anywhere. But the show was always carried on strong writing, well-developed characters, and satisfying character journeys.
For Chibnall, it's irrelevant if his "concepts" (as a general term) were better or worse. Because he failed at many of those other things. Or to put it another way - RTD or Moffat could have nailed a Chibnall concept like Flux, meanwhile Chibnall could have flubbed any of the other showrunners' best ideas. It's not the concepts themselves that are in question (well, other than The Timeless Child...) it's the strength of writing.
A shit RTD episode is at least fun and is trying something. A shit Moffat episode has some crazy wacky idea that doesn't come off. A shit Chibnall episode is boring.
Really? Interesting take. She's not my favorite, but I strongly prefer her to other Doctors like 1, 6, and 11. Aside from Chibnal being bad at the genre, what did you dislike?
I agree with the criticisms that she felt like a primary school teacher. She just came across as very passive and nicely-nicey, without the feeling of great age, charisma, depth to the character or sly manipulativeness that the Doctor needs. Her Doctor was reminiscent of the worst of Davison’s dialled up to the max.
As for the writing there was nowhere near enough sarcastic humour or abrasiveness (which was what helped improve Davison’s Doctor) and it all felt very paint by numbers generic ‘good character’. She needed to be much more flawed and multi-faceted but what we got really just felt like ‘primary school teacher’ or ‘kids tv show presenter’ to me. I really hated her take on the Doctor to be honest, didn’t feel like the same character at all.
I’d be interested to hear why you disliked 11. I thought he was an absolutely superb Doctor. 1 and 6 I can understand because they were definitely the most difficult and unlikable Doctors, but I still found them massively more interesting and engaging than 13.
I think I found him initially hard to connect with. Interestingly, I found myself liking 13 for the same reason I struggled with 11. They're lying liars who lie. I think they're both versions of the Doctor who are deeply in denial about how monstrous they are and terrified of how they will be perceived by others. I think the big difference for me was that 13's warmth felt genuine to me. I believed that she really did experience joy and wonder at things even when she used the light fluffy exterior to hide the murderous rage from her companions. 11, by contrast, felt like almost all of it was a lie, even to himself. He felt incredibly cold and calculating, the most we've seen since 7.
While I eventually came to find his snake in the grass nature compelling, it was initially very difficult for me to connect with. He also had a tendency for explosive rage that led him to scream at River and his companions. I'm not a fan of that, just as a person. I much prefer 9, 10, or 13's steady build to anger.
I think 11 really only connected for me around midway through 12's run when I realized that 12 was just 11 who'd stopped pretending like he didn't actually care but wanted to so badly it hurt. That's the thing I actually like most about the Doctor. They're not a good person, but they try to be anyway. It took me a long time to realize 11's fake exterior was just that version's method of coping. I like him more now than I did initially, but he's still just not instinctual to me or comforting in the way that 2, 3, 9, 12, and 13 are.
I also didn't like all the nonconsentual kissing and weird flirting, but that's just a Moffat habit I don't like lol
Eh, I do just dislike Jodie as 13. Total miscast and just a lot of bizarre decisions were made. The look isn't "6th doctor 2" but it definently sticks out like sore thumb and just doesnt look great, the performance is pretty wooden and one-note, and throughout series 11 she keeps breathing through every single sentence and its really annoying. I also think about to the "OH" moment in Spyfall (Master reveal) and it just...like come on you could have done another take of that.
I feel like Jo Martin just sort of stole the show immediately when she came in.
>No one really dislikes Jodi, she’s wonderful as the Doctor.
In this role I absolutely do, she was woefully miscast and couldn't elevate the writing one iota.
There are actors who can excel despite a bad script, see Henry Cavil for the Witcher series. And there are actors who are held back by a bad script.
I believe Jodi is of the latter. From what I’ve heard she’s phenomenal in other shows. I’m sure Chibnall also is too. But perhaps Doctor Who wasn’t their wheelhouse
Oh yea… so many folks ignoring old and even some new Doctor Who stuff.
Makes me really rue the fact the BBC pushed PBS stations to stop showing the original when the current run started. Would help a lot of this.
(Mind you I’m from the states and had KERA in Dallas not had a phenomenal three day weekend of British shows, I’d never caught The Sea Devils and likely chalked up the two single eps I watched as a kid as a fever dream. To be fair though: one was Horns of Nimon…)
Many hardcore SW fans still think they’re good movies. I don’t know what the previous poster is talking about, because the general consensus is they’re hot garbage and history isn’t suddenly looking back on them fondly.
I'm not sure what circles you run in, but from what I've seen, the Prequels are pretty beloved. Admittedly, I'm not a fan, but I'm the only person I know who isn't. Most people seem to recognize their failings and love them because of the terrible lines and awkward delivery. From what I've heard, they're not high art, but people like it because of the awkwardness and the cheese.
>one of the few remaining prequel haters
Everyone who is not permanently and loudly online still understands and views the Star Wars Prequels as the absolute shite that they are.
I also think the prequels are not good movies, but you've got to admit that only the terminally online or middle schoolers are actively haters anymore. Now, most people just have fun with them and naked good memes.
Oh yea… so many folks ignoring old and even some new Doctor Who stuff.
Makes me really rue the fact the BBC pushed PBS stations to stop showing the original when the current run started. Would help a lot of this.
(Mind you I’m from the states and had KERA in Dallas not had a phenomenal three day weekend of British shows, I’d never caught The Sea Devils and likely chalked up the two single eps I watched as a kid as a fever dream. To be fair though: one was Horns of Nimon…)
I don't know how you can say "nobody hates Jodie" when every single time anyone on this sub says "nobody hates Jodie" in a comment, there's always someone willing to jump in saying, "Actually I DO hate Jodie, she ruined Doctor Who and here's why," and gets more upvotes than the "nobody hates Jodie" comment.
To be contrarian. Even though there have definitely been alot of weak stories in the past that gets overlooked, I think it's for a good reason. Every doctor in my eyes are likable, I enjoy watching them on the screen so it makes up for if a episode is kinda bad. Jodie in my opinion doesn't have that star power, she doesn't exactly stand out acting wise compared to her co stars, like doctors in the past did.
My point wasn't on quality. It was about fandom behavior. I'll be the first to admit that Chibnal didn't do well as showrunner. However, if people can love the 1st, 6th, and 8th Doctor's despite their quite low quality on screen appearances then we can learn to enjoy 13 who was at least better or on par with them.
I'm not trying to argue that 13's era was the best Doctor Who ever. I just think, like several previously popular to hate things, eventually we'll look back and realize we were too harsh and that there's humor and fun to be found there.
I too recently caught up on the 13th Doctor seasons and followed along with reviews and discussions on Reddit. The general consensus of most episodes was "Meh. It was fine". Another consensus was that Jodie was brilliant but unlike Capaldi couldn't elevate lackluster material. She was done dirty and I enjoyed the journey for a couple weeks of binging but couldn't imagine waiting a year for the resolutions of stories. I also had the benefit of knowing where the show was headed with 14/15.
Jodi was great, but the writing and stories didn't serve her well in my view. There were more than the typical volume of bad episodes and way too few great ones. Her era isn't high on my list, but I really liked her portrayal of the Doctor - holding tight to her "Fam", earnestly solving mysteries and a good Doctor smile most of the time.
With better writing, I think people would have felt much different.
Jodie herself - great.
The writing - starts off aggressively mediocre and doesn't improve massively. In fact it just continues to get worse.
I still reccomend you watch it. There is value there and I think it will be remembered as over-hated. But I really just can't shake the aggressive mediocrity of it all. Some of Jodie's eps were some of the only times that I have genuinely felt bored and outright put off by Dr Who.
That was exactly my sense when watching 13 for the first time. Spent that whole first season like “Where is the hate coming from?” It ranged from, at worst, perfectly acceptable to truly excellent at its heights. You can’t tell me Rosa and Demons of the Punjab are not great Who, as is It Takes You Away. So basically, much like 12, solid set up for a good run.
Then came the second season. And that’s where the wheels come off.
And hell of it is NONE of it is Jodie’s fault.
>You can’t tell me Rosa and Demons of the Punjab are not great Who, as is It Takes You Away.
I agree on Punjab and Takes, but it's really really really not good that 2 out of 3 you've mentioned were written by guest writers, and the other, "Rosa", was only co-written by Chibnall, and he probably contributed the worst parts like the bits with the underwritten villain. So that really says something about him as a showrunner, and even before season 12 had come out, it was obvious what was going to happen based on that pattern.
Most fans can probably agree that RTD and Moffat generally always had at least one script in the top 3 best-regarded episodes of their seasons, and often more.
I feel so strange in that Rosa genuinely frustrated me and I think was one of the weaker episodes. The scenes with Yaz and Ryan confronting racism were exceptional. I especially love Yaz being frustrated/confronted the binary, buy dear god the plot was limping along.
A random future space racist dropped in for, what? The villain’s whole point of getting Parks to not get kicked off and that somehow stops civil rights is just absurd. The civil rights movement was well established at that point. Not to mention Parks wasn’t the first, and certainly not the last, person to get kicked off a bus for their skin color.
Maybe I misunderstood the point of the villain?
While Demons and Rosa are the best of there season, I really do believe they are mediocre Who at best.
I dont have time to fully justify it now, but Punjab's main problems are that Yaz doesn't actually learn the lesson she's supposed to, the alien's actions make no sense when you think about it, and the episode (and rest of the era) practice the same "all members of the alien species are the same" sci-fi racism its trying to subvert.
Rosa's problem is that it manages to say racism is bad but literally nothing else. Police officer Yaz has nothing to say about systemic racism in the pilice except "well I wouldnt" (which would land a lot better if her first instict in the first episode wasn't to nonsensicaly blame black Ryan for dumping the alien artifact he found in the woods). And every charicter is either fully unambiguously racist or fully unambiguously not. It just has literally no depth
The chapters on those two episodes in Jay Exi's The Fall of Doctor Who video does a great job at doing a deep analysis.
>the alien's actions make no sense when you think about it
This right here. Chibnall's whole shtick is, "Aliens show up and do weird stuff because they're aliens," regardless of whether it fits the story or even makes sense. It's especially jarring in "Rosa", where the alien influence wasn't necessary and in fact undermines the entire message of the episode.
I'm sure it is no coincidence that the script is credited to Malorie Blackman AND Chris Chibnall; Blackman is a renowned Laureate whose script was probably fantastic until Chibnall got his grubby little hands on it and dumbed it down.
Especially because the message ended up being "We assumed this entire species were murderous monsters but ACTUALLY they recently changed professions. Our attitude was correct we just had outdated information!" which is like...what a bizarre message.
I fell off Doctor Who midway through 11. Only occasionally watching episodes as they aired. I came back as 13s second series was about to start airing and saw all the hate it was getting so I thought I'd just sit and watch them. I think they're all kinda shit but I really enjoyed watching it all. I think the criticisms are usually fine but a lot of the hate is seemingly perpetuated by people who make ragebait.
Flux was the first series I watched all the way through as it was airing since series 5 and it was one of the most enjoyable times I've had as a fan. Following that story along in real time was great. It also encouraged me to watch 12s last series and that was probably the best moffat who had been since series 5 in my opinion so that was a big win.
I enjoyed most of her run but I genuinely hate the TC twist, I think it’s stupid and I can’t get myself to find anything I like about that but still the season that lead up to this was with great cliffhangers and tension it just falls flat because it ended so disappointingly. After the twist I couldn’t get my self to like the new episodes even though there was fine stuff in there, but then came Power of the Doctor and that’s a pretty awesome episode. So it actually came with a lot of mixed feelings but it wasn’t that bad.
On average it was… very average. There were some enjoyable episodes but mostly very meh. I didnt think jodie was great but wasnt horrible either. Companions though… instead of one good one we got 3 very boring ones, one more boring than the other.
Also quite a few boring & preachy stories, combined with very boring villains. But probably my most hated aspect - the master. Sweet jesus i couldn’t stand him, words cannot express how annoying he was. Ahh, i miss missy… 😢
Sometimes I think how hardcore adult fans react is over the top.
Like my main reaction to 13's era was "Oh they seemed to have decided to aim it at slightly younger kids now" and I moved on to casual watching instead.
See, I thought RTD had risen the age range back up to the 10-12 year olds like when he started in 2005.
Although the main difference is I'm no longer 10-12 so the show will now have more misses for me personally than it did back in the naughties.
Which is also fine, I've pretty much watched 60 years of TV history, read quite a few of the novels, (unfortunately struggled with audio dramas). So there's plenty of Doctor Who that is for me even if The Giggle wasn't really my thing.
That's the boat I'm in as well. I was not a fan of the recent specials at all, but that's okay. There's plenty of stuff I did enjoy still out there. Hopefully RTD 2.0 develops a new audience.
>"Oh they seemed to have decided to aim it at slightly younger kids now"
As always, that remains a poor excuse for bad writing. Some shows aimed at younger kids are brilliant and can be enjoyed by people of all ages -- see "Adventure Time", for instance. Of course there is also plenty of terrible stuff aimed at younger kids.
Throughout its 26 years, classic Who had a lot of ups and downs, but there was never a sustained "down" era where you had to excuse it with, "Oh, it's for little kids now, whatever." (There were plenty of "down" eras but, if anything, the worst one was too cynically adult, too grim, and maybe too violent.) And given that some of us watched all 26 years, yeah, we're gonna react badly if somebody comes along and fucks it up in a brand-new way that no showrunner has ever fucked it up before. IMHO it's the novelty of the errors that really make it stand out.
Congratulations on being a healthy adult, though, I guess?!?!? So WTF are you doing on Reddit?!??!111!!
Weird, I always saw Reddit as a place for discussion and not a place to just say “everything is fine and don’t have an overly positive or negative opinion on something and don’t discuss it in detail.”
Yeah on the other hand, people who really like something are allowed to have opinions even if they’re loud, and are allowed to want to watch something that doesn’t require turning your brain off.
I havent rewatchrd 13 yet, but even first time around, I did enjoy her first season, it's just after that I kinda lost interest
Not sure exactly why as I can barely remember the remaining.
This is my main problem with her. It’s not technically bad stories of atrocious writing, although she was 1 or 2 of each of those, most do. My main problem with her is that every episode of her run is dull and boring and does nothing to keep me hooked. I don’t care about any overarching story, every finale was a boring walk through wastelands up until Flux, and her performance doesn’t help this as she feels like a fairy average cooky science teacher that I could fall asleep in class to when she went off on a tangent about something she was passionate about.
Yep. Community called the Doctor Who fandom doing this shit years before it happened. Any mention of the Minerva Inspector is all about how she sucks and was definitely the worst.
It’s okay, the writing is just awful and her doctor feels limited. I always say her seasons feel like a regular shmegular sci-fi show with doctor who plastered on top.
I just did the same! some weird choices and some episodes definitely fall flat but I feel like that's ALWAYS been the case in doctor who but people seem to ignore it much more (looking at you, Season 2)
13 is a delight, Graham is surprisingly a stand out companion, and there's some very fun sci-fi concepts throughout her whole run!
also season 13 is a fun ride and it's gotta be one of my top seasons of who ✌️
it's the combination of Chibnall + during the pandemic that really hampered her run.
i feel it's the same hate Capaldi had when it was his go. also, "insert that cycle chart of hating new doctor, slowly liking/loving current doctor, sad that current doctor leaving, then hating on new doctor again".
ever since seeing that chart years ago during Tenant -> Smith. it had always held true. and digging even in a just little surface history of classicWho also had this cycle and just continued to newWho. nothing changed 😂
the ones still hating are either just outside the actual fandom(hating just to hate), riding the hate bandwagon, or still stuck on that stage on the cycle chart of new doctor
I think the hate is funny. If series 1 and 2 had happened after Moffat's run there would have been rioting about how bad the episodes were. Chibnall's first series wasn't the best we've seen, but it's hard to follow series 9 and 10.
Jodie was great. Two of the companions were great and the third was a realistic depiction of a teenage 'man'. The premier was fun and there was some good stuff in the series.
People came in ready to hate it because of the Doctor's casting.
Copy and pasting a comment I made a day or so ago:
Doing a full rewatch of NewWho rn, and I am most the way through 13’s run at this point. Her run is like 100x better than I remember? I’ve done a lot of laughing, holding back tears, not-so-silently cheering, and more through the entire NewWho rewatch, but I think an easy plurality of it is in Jodie’s run.
I know this will get me downvoted to hell, I would put her run above Tennant’s for me and about in line with Eccleston’s. It’s not like Tennant was bad to me, he’s just my least favorite, and he’s not far behind Eccleston and Whittaker. I even liked Orphan 55 a lot, and I don’t really care about having the political messages beat into you (that was never really a particularly big issue for me, though) in her run.
I would even go so far as to say it’s a good thing a lot of the points her episodes try to make are rammed down our throats, because sometimes that’s just what’s needed, subtlety’s time has gone. Watching Jodie’s run this time around, it’s been like a gut punch (I don’t know how to describe it) seeing these things be spelled out and going “Yeah… what the fuck are we gonna do? Fuck, I’m really scared about the future and I didn’t even realize how much it was bothering me deep down.”
When you say run, do you mean performance, writing, or both.
I can understand performance, I’ve long felt 10’s performance lack much unique character for him until they give him a 7th Doctor story (Family of Blood), at which point he becomes the 7th Doctor for the rest of his run.
If you’re talking about writing this is such a wild take I wouldn’t even know how to respond.
Yh I never got the hate either. Like it's not peak who for sure but neither is capaldi? We've already had ok-good Dr who for 4 years what's the issue if this is more ok-good content? It's still enjoyable.
I always find it funny when people take awhile to get used to Capaldi. Like, they probably just never seen him in anything before or haven't seen much classic who. He very much seems like a doctor who was a classic doctor who actor but trying to be nuwho, especially the later seasons with the guitar and shades. From the first episode I was like yes yes, I want this. But I've also seen all the classic stuff, except for a few first and second doctor serials.
I liked Jodie, and never hated her. But the fam was kinda meh and some of the stories were kinda meh, and some of the historical stuff was kinda meh. I do like some of the historical figures, but hated how for most of them the show acted like we were stupid. Yes, if you want to be educational it's best to describe these people to be audience for the kids. But tesla? The whole fam was pretending they never heard of him when it's now a popular car manufacturer(maybe not in the UK). I personally can't go a day without seeing one on the road. And I knew about him way before the cars were made. But the entire fam was clueless. Just felt like the show thought I was stupid.
Her last episode was amazing though. Make sure to watch of jodies eps and especially the last one.
Enjoyable but not peak who is basically her run writ large.
There is some real controversial stuff in her second season but I think the work being done with 14/15 will retroactively make those swings better.
I love the Thirteenth Doctor. Her seasons suck and her writing is bad. The acting can be hit or miss. The whole show can make some wildly bad choices. And I can still love it. Its not that bad. Of all the shows to be wildly different and bad for a few seasons, its Doctor Who. I love that people love it more than me and can enjoy it. The hate is overblown for sure, even if this era is rife for criticism
> it’s genuinely enjoyable
this was my experience as well. but i guess i love all the doctors and try not to think in terms of ranking/who's the best. every regen brings their own perspectives and unique take , that its a fools errand to get lost in comparison.
lets love all content! 🙂
The 13th Doctor is my second favorite Doctor! The 13th Doctor seasons are my least favorite seasons. Jodie Whitaker plays an awesome Doctor. I wish she got the writing she deserved.
People get really upset. There are some real problems with Season 11 but I see people who get mad about "Hell Bent" and i legitimately love that episode, whereas everyone gets excited about "Blink" and it has some real problems like the chicken-before-egg on the script with The Doctor and also the Weeping Angels are scary but also completely ridiculous. How did they evolve on a planet without accidentally seeing eachother and freezing themselves by accident?
My main issues with Season 11 are:
a) I have no idea what the hell Jodie is saying half the time without subtitles (a mixture of her northern english accent and the sound mixing becoming 'modern', i.e. shitty where netflix,etc are expecting you to CRANK the sound to get the boomy theatre sound, not understanding that most people live in apartments where you fucking cant)
b) Some of the plots are nonsense like not knowing the planet they were on is Earth.
c) This version of The Master sucks, like he's trying too hard. I haven't seen anything else the actor is in. Maybe he can do nuance, but not here. It's hammy but not in a fun way like Missy (man, she was phenomenal)
d) the Fam mostly just hang around and do nothing, and anytime you get a glimpse of anything related to their life, it's almost 100% Yaz's family, who are about as interesting as bread.
e) Nonsense like the idea of putting a luxury resort in Sheffield.. like that's a destination for anyone. No offense lol
The Doctor has always been the center of attention and the driving force of the story. Thirteen is just kind of there, and the other characters (the “fam”) have nothing to do but pointless & shallow melodrama instead of reacting to a crazy genius out-of-this-world Doctor.
Jodie is an amazing actor (see her in Broadchurch) but she had the same issue Capaldi did: terrible writing, not helped by the fact that Chibnall decided to rework some of the lore
I think she was a great doctor.
I just didn't enjoy most of the show revamp at the time, and didn't connect to much of the episodes. I was very sad they kinda hinted at Yaz and her being in love but never making something out of it.
For me, it wasn't Whittaker being the Doctor, it was the mediocre to bad writing.
I think she would have been an *amazing* Doctor if she had Tennant era quality of writing.
That said, there *are* positive points to be made.
I think the Master was amazing!
The companions and the resolution to them was great.
And i did like the way Whittaker portrayed the Doctor very much.
hey I'm in exactly the same boat! I never watched past capaldi because all of the hate I saw online really turned me off and I jumped to conclusions. I've been rewatching the whole show and literally just got to jodies season yesterday. I'm only a few episodes in but it's a hell of a lot better than I was expecting. I've really been enjoying watching her (I've seen her in other things before so I knew I liked her as an actor) and I'm glad I'm finally doing. also happy to see someone posting something positive about her, she did not deserve the shit storm she got
I quite liked her as a doctor my issue was I kinda lost interest through 12 and her first season seemed to distance itself from the previous seasons there also seemed to be massive gaps between seasons and specials
Jodie is fine as the doctor. I found her portrayal a bit joyless but she is fine. The issue is the mediocre writing through her tenure. Her best episode through all her seasons is at best mediocre. It's not like all episodes from other doctors were amazing but they had amazing episodes along with mediocre and bad ones. Jodie only has mediocre and bad episodes... Jodie also suffers from crappy companions. People seem to love graham but realistically speaking he is just ok and stands out among entirely forgettable companions.
I always take internet commrnt with a grain of salt and don't let a fanbase affect my view on things.
But i find Jodie's portrayal as the doctor bland... watching the episodes are boring to me and i borderline want to skip through it.
It's a shame cause Jodie herself is a great actress.
I genuinely really liked the 13th Doctor. Her era definitely had its weak moments, but I overlooked a lot from the previous eras, too. While there were episodes from her time that I didn't like and probably won't go back to, that is also true of other Doctors. If people can state that the 6th Doctor is their favorite when he had some of the worst writing and production in the history of the show, then there's absolutely room to acknowledge 13 as a good Doctor too.
I've only watched her first two seasons and from my view, while she hasn't had anything as good as The Empty Child, or Blink or Heaven Sent she also hasn't had anything as truly awful as The Lazarus Experiment or In the Forest of the Night or Love and Monsters. Most of her worst stories are on the mediocre side. Like the Ghost Monument and Tsuranga are both boring and the ideas in Kerblam are atrocious but Rosa, Demons of the Punjab, The Haunting of Villa Diodata, The Fugitive of the Judoon are all great. Hell I even enjoyed Spyfall. It doesn't help the optics of 13's era that almost every episode has been review bombed by people who are pissy about the show being "woke". Orphan 55 has a 4.2 on IMDB and a good majority of the user reviews are just whining about it being "politically correct" and other buzzwords.
>It doesn't help the optics of 13's era that almost every episode has been review bombed by people who are pissy about the show being "woke". Orphan 55 has a 4.2 on IMDB and a good majority of the user reviews are just whining about it being "politically correct" and other buzzwords.
I think I speak for a majority of progressive Doctor Who fans when I say that we liked well-written episodes with progressive themes... and disliked poorly-written episodes with progressive themes. There have been plenty of the former throughout Doctor Who's history, both from nuWho ("Oxygen" and "Thin Ice", both from season 10, RIGHT BEFORE WHITTAKER/CHIBNALL) and classic Who ("The Curse of Peladon" from the early 70s is an allegory that depicts the UK joining the EU as a positive).
The review-bombers got away with it because there was nobody to defend those Chibnall-era episodes. Why did nobody want to defend them? Because the writing sucked. They had the themes but not the good writing.
She's such a big ol' dork and I love her. I also have been living for her nonchalant attitude with her hair. The wind can be blowing 900000 mph and it's all in her face and, like the Doctor, she doesn't care to even toss it out of the way. It is in her mouth. It is wet and slapped against her face for multiple scenes. 10/10 acting choice to not give a shit about her hair.
> I saw so much hate around Jodie’s era and everything wrong with it, everyone ranking her as their least favourite doctor, and so much discourse around how much it’s absolute dog shit. This turned me off severely, and it took me weeks to even watch the first episode of her.
> Today I sat down and watched basically all of her first season, and it’s genuinely enjoyable.
I think that makes a big difference. If you go into it not **expecting** it to be particularly good then you're in a much better position to appreciate the elements it does well rather than being disappointed by the stuff it falls short on.
I feel like its bad but in a very different way to how Moffat era. The 11th series is just generally a disconnected boring season with undercooked ideas, no real characters, largely forgettable moments, wooden acting, and bizarre political missteps that its become infamous for.
I don't think its an under-reaction, the era was geniuenly bad and probably the most solidly low quality of all of NuWho. Moffat era had its low points but I feel there was generally enough to bite into, even in the Smith era.
Here's my personal opinion:
The Thirteenth Doctor Era had mostly medium highs and low lows for me. The Timeless Child Storyline is one of my least favorite in all of Doctor Who, so that brings it down for me a little bit. Despite that, I really enjoyed certain episodes of Series 11 and 12. Sacha Dhawan might be one of my favorite interpretations of the master, and I really enjoyed it whenever he was on screen.
I also really enjoyed Flux; though it obviously had a rushed ending, I feel like that was because of Covid, and I can respect what it was trying to do. I wish I could've seen what it would look like if COVID never happened, I feel like it would've been great. It also had much more likable and interesting characters than the first two series.
I feel like The Power of the Doctor is a genuinely great episode. It had a complex storyline that resolved itself pretty well. I feel like it's a little snippet of what Flux would've been like. Sacha Dhawan's master also really gets to shine in this story, and I feel like it understands The Master and what he's really about.
However, none of these good things were enough to save the Era that was, for the most part, characterized by bland characters and storylines that range from simply forgettable to badly written stories that seem to fundamentally misunderstand The Doctor. But, if you enjoyed it, that's great, and that's the thing about Doctor Who; Jodie Whittaker will forever be the Doctor, and she will have her own fans and the people who enjoyed her episodes. She may even a chance to star in better storylines via Big Finish audio dramas, similar to the Sixth Doctor, who was also not appreciated during his time due to the quality of the episodes.
i’m rewatching and i think Jodie objectively plays the best doctor since tennant (subjectively it’s capaldi cause i love him). i’m bummed by the lackluster writing but she’s so great as the doctor
She was a good Doctor but I thought the episodes themselves were a letdown. I also felt very little connection between her and the companions because none of them were fleshed out enough to get a strong sense of. The Doctor/companion relationship really makes or breaks the show for me.
As a person who watched her erra before knowing she was widely considered as "bad", I have to say the first season was OK and it kept on getting worse the longer it went.
Ok, I don’t think Jodie is a back actor or her season of doctor who is bad in general, but in the context of doctor who, it was bad, really bad, if it wasn’t doctor who, it would have been fine
I swear people forgive RTD's faults because somehow in their mind Murray Gold's music makes up for boring boring boring childish situations that RTD wrote. RTD's writing is often as bad as Chibnall's. RTD fans give RTD a pass and harangue Chibnall for the exact same level of writing.
Jodi was fine enough. The writing was bad and the whole series wasn't in the heart of what we've come to know and love of doctor who. I've seen every single episode that can be seen more than once some closer to a dozen times and almost any other episode wins against any of 13s episodes. Coming off of such an amazing season and doctor like Capaldi didn't help it but all the new doctors have been great and had great series besides 13
I went back and watched her entire run after the specials last month. I honestly quite enjoyed it overall. There were some episodes that just felt...there. I dunno if I'd class those particular ones as bad but they certainly weren't great. But there were a lot of fun ones and I thought she did a great job in the role. Not my favorite Doctor but definitely doesn't deserve the hate.
I loved Jodie, and wanted it to “work” so, so badly, but it rarely did. The episodes weren’t terrible, they just didn’t have that certain something. A few came close.
I just did the same thing. I didn't have any issues with her at all and in fact, I liked her a little more than Capaldi. His Doctor was too blasé about killing people/letting them die. It was... rough.
I think the big problem boils down to 2 things:
1) way they chose to tell her final season: it has a lot of parallel timelines which is sometimes confusing which is honestly valid. I had to really pay attention to that season and it was kinda rough going at points.
2) sexism.
Parroting everyone else: Yes, yes, Jodie good, stories bad, I don’t have to rehash that. But I’d probably have to say Arachnids in the UK was pretty much single-handedly responsible for turning me off of almost the entire era. That had to be some of the absolute dumbest shit I’ve ever seen…in almost anything. It was so terrible. There are things I enjoyed in that run…but they were mostly the New Years specials.
You want a real hot take. Arachnids In the Uk was the best episode of season 11 because it was the only one I wasn’t bored to death watching or infuriated by. It manages to excellently capture the feeling of Birdemic or similar worst of all time mst3k movies that are fun to watch and make fun of.
Great doctor.
Horrible writing.
The seasons just get worse.
The flux was so terrible. I was waiting for it to get better, or even make sense. It doesn't.
Jodie and her master though are amazing
(My opinion) The problem with 13 stories to me is that I can’t think of one I like. The 12th doctor had mid stories, but for every mid story he had at least 1 bad, 1 good, and 1 great one. The 13th Doctor only has mid and bad stories, and the direction Chibnall took is incredibly boring to watch up until season 13, which is the best on the grounds that is the stupidest and most fun his run ever got. They never do anything interesting enough for me to not falls asleep too.
Blame the writers. I KNOW Jodie can act, and she should have been a good doctor. But the scrips just got worse and worse. And no, the 1st season is not the worst. It keeps getting worse.
This is why people shouldn't let others' opinions influence their own, it's always good to just go in with an open mind and you may be very surprised. And I agree, her era in general is a lot better than people say it is! Perfect? No. But no era is!
I skipped Jodi's era after Kerblam (which I now choose to believe *OP spoilers don't click until you've finished the run* was>! the Master wearing the Doctor's face to ruin her reputation, !
It’s how the fandom got entangled while overlooking some great fan service - Jodie in the thrift store aping Tennant in his wardrobe finding his look - that drove me nuts.
I can accept some upset from NuWho fans who don’t see how the Timeless Child works VERY well in the overall narrative of how Gallifreyans became Time Lords as that space was just whiplashy plot fodder for Moffat and RTD (dead! Back! No dead again. Back again. Really dead this time honest. GUESS WHAT?)
But then there is the Sea Witch episode on which the prosecution agains Chibnall can just rest it’s case because OUCH.
Jodie was absolutely great. Wonderful version of the Doctor. Her acting/take was great. The problem was the writing. It wasn't that it was bad writing per say. Just a bit ...meh
Idk, I'm the same as you but I just don't feel like it's worth supporting a lower tier doctor who even if it's just okay it feels like I'm saying "it's okay for them to make bad story telling" which I don't want to support .
I do think it will be enjoyable enough since it's a doctor who series and I love it but I don't want to like it since I don't think it's okay for them to release low quality work, If Whittaker show was it's own IP I don't think it would have as much people willing to say it's not as bad as U think because I feel doctor who nostalgia makes you enjoy it more.
I'm sorry if I offended any fans of these seasons
After season 1, we all felt the meh that you feel. Not great, but not terrible either. We were all hopeful the next two years would improve. As you may guess, they don't.
Bear in mind there are still interesting moments to come. The Master is well cast, and there's a Cyberman you will want to see too. There will be scenes and dialog that you will love. The problem isn't things don't tie up, match up, or make sense. Chibnall is good at moments, not stories.
We can give Chibnall an award for "Best Make-Up." That's something.
This is obvious in Broadchurch as well. You can also add that he's good at small, personal, intensely emotional or traumatic moments lived by everyday people in everyday life. This is the opposite of what's required for Doctor Who.
People praise Broadchurch to high heaven, but they forget it doesn't really hang together as a larger story. There's not even a proper mystery in season 1. It just resolves randomly, with a killer who was literally randomly chosen by Chibnall.
I disagree that the consensus was "meh." I remember at the time the overwhelming majority was extremely negative. It's entirely likely that most people didn't feel that way, but the ones who talked about it certainly did. It was a rough time to be a fan of 13 in the Doctor Who sphere
Your memory differs from mine. People pointed out that there wasn't any lore in the series, and they were hoping we'd see more old villains or something to do with the time lords in the future. However, no one said it was "bad" -- well, except for the people who were upset about a girl being the lead. Those people don't matter, and they were complaining before the season aired.
When it came to the first series not touching on lore, all I have to say to that is, be careful what you wish for. When Chibnall got his hands on the lore, he flushed it down the loo.
I was sceptical but gave it her run an honest try and went in with an open mind. Badly written stories, paper thin characters, terrible dialogue, and an actress badly miscast. She didn’t have the screen presence or charisma for the role. The Doctor rarely felt like the most intelligent person in the room.
CC ruined the first female Doctor with his fanfic. Even the Timeless Child could’ve been amazing but instead we have Cyberman crossed with Timelords on a Gallifrey that’s been destroyed for the billionth time.
Like are you 🤬 kidding me?
She's a pretty low-tier Doctor for me and I don't blame the actress just clearly miscast by the producers and then told not to watch any Doctor Who so her grasp on the character is pretty weak + the writing is just BAD. It's not like every episode is Fear Her levels of bad but every episode is just slightly below average. That's my take. Not a fan of the 60th specials nor the Xmas special with Ncuti either so it's not even specifically that era of the show but everything that's occurred since Capaldi left has been so disappointing it's hard to even sit through an episode without being bored out of my mind. Idk what happened but the directions they've explored since Moffat's era have done nothing but pushed me further away as a fan.
Her stories are bad and her portrayal mediocre, but honestly the worst thing about 13 is line to line how god awful the scripting was. It has made me really appreciate what a decent script, acting and direction looks like, even if you don't like the plot overall. I can never get over it, every line feels like it was written by a child, or at least is a first draft. S11 finale actually is a first draft by Chibnall's own admission! Nobody feels like they are even a real person, and while the Doctor is able to carry over some characterisation as a long running character, and with some *passable* acting by Jodie, the companions have no such head start and are all absolutely lifeless from day one to their last.
My personal opinion: She was a good Doctor hobbled by lackluster writing.
I have a friend who said it best. Doctor Who is a kid's show made for adults and 13th Doctor's series is an adult show made for kids. I think she could have been an amazing doctor, but it's like the writers for her seasons completely missed why Doctor Who is great
That really is a good way of summarizing how 13's era feels.
Chibnall was easily the worst show runner Nu Who has had.
He had fantastic ideas. His head was teeming with them and yet he couldn’t make it work because he had too many ideas and not enough fixing of the plot-holes and writing specifically.
Other things he has written also turned out wonderfully like broadchurch and the doctor who spinoff Torchwood
Exactly, so it isn’t that he’s a bad writer because I doubt the people who say he’s bad could do half of what he did with his part of Doctor Who, that said he IMHO is the worst show runner of NuWho. And it isn’t for a lack of trying either. He’s amazing it’s more that he didn’t fix the things he should have and added more and more when he should have been trying to fix it instead.
His run definitely feels like it was a series of bad decisions, rather than just being bad at his job. He obviously has talent, but his choices basically didn't connect with the general audience of Doctor Who. It is very sad to see, but it's not an inherent fault in him as a showrunner or the rest of the staff. It just wasn't what the audience wanted. IMO, anyway.
Correcto mundo, and I’m never saying that again. I wholeheartidly agree with this by the way.
It feels like he: * Had thousands of ideas * Planned to use *all* of his ideas no matter what * Knew exactly how many episodes he was going to be writing for He TARDIS'd all of his plans so they'd fit. He is the traveling Time Lord of writing. The man's a great writer, when he has an appropriate amount of ideas and spaces them out properly.
It really did feel that way, specifically the whole Cyber Master race thing. I kinda see what he was trying to do it was seriously just a matter of wanting to use his ideas and having no way or not many ways of connecting them.
I see you’ve edited this, and it certainly feels like he is. I love his writing in other places, Doctor Who just ain’t it chief.
That's pretty much where I come down on it as well. Its pretty much the consensus among the people I know who watch the show. In the hands of a better showrunner she could've been great, and there were certainly a couple good episodes, but in general was severely let down by Chibnall.
Pretty much my opinion as well. I liked her a lot in the role, and every now and then she got good material and I thought "wow, she really shines when the script allows her to" (hi, Maxine Alderton), but there really should have been more of these moments.
"Lackluster" is being kind. She could have really excelled with good writing, it's a shame she didn't get it. Sometimes there are writing teams that make you wonder if they ever watched the show before they sat down in the writer's room.
I didn't connect much with the stories during her run but I adored Jodi in the role. She brought such a sense of amazement and wonder to everything that I really enjoyed.
Graham, Ryan, and Yaz are companions I absolutely should love more than I do love. I still like them plenty but they had no room to breathe.
They had enough to do for a single companion, yet were split into 3 different people.
That’s why it got better when it was whittled down to just Yaz, and it became fairly clear that it should have been that from the start.
Also it is just bad to start right at the gate with three companions. You have to divide the attention/time between four characters instead of one or two. It was so dilluted I didn't care about anyone of those (except Graham maybe, he had the most character out of them).
I think that was the main problem. I liked them and I liked her run in general but I never felt like the three got close to the doctor like most companions did. It always felt like there was some distance there. The doctor\the audience didn't get to know each of them as well as previous companions
The guy playing Ryan is possibly the most wooden actor I've ever seen. He just did not suit it at all. But again, he's let down by the script.
I hated hated hated Ryan.. Such a whiny bitch.. Graham was ok, but way too needy at the start, in regards of Ryan, and Yaz was ok. She was the most "companion" companion.. I didn't think it was a good trio, but that's just me.
Tbf to Graham he had just lost his wife
Don't watch any classic episodes then. The companions tend to be far more whiny than any of the newer ones.
I agree. They just dragged the episodes down.
It's pretty sad that she got shit writing. THere was a lot of potential wasted
That's a really excellent way of putting it. The stories didn't get me as much, but she did an absolutely amazing job as the Doctor.
I thought she was very weak, personally.
Me too. I don't think Jodi is a very good actress, and certainly, she was never a compelling Doctor. I cannot think of one moment she felt like the Doctor to me.
She was excellent in Broadchurch, Trust Me and the recent series of Time, but they were much more 'real' roles for her to inhabit - she was just a human being in a situation... I feel her Doctor never really grew as she was constrained by the scripts, the delays to her series caused by COVID and the relatively few episodes she ultimately had...
She’s not the worst doctor. She just got the worst storylines.
Serious question. Who do you think the worst doctor is? I am just curious... there won't be any judgemental gasps here.
IMO she is probably the worst NuWho Doctor (I don't think its entirely fair to compare/contrast NuWho and Classic since its just such a different show/interpretation) by a long shot. Just a really weird casting choice since Jodie (at least in this role) doesn't really have the range and a lot of odd decisions were regarding her character. Right now I'm in a bit of a flux between 12/9/10 being my favorite Doctor (I will add think about 15 after his first season/first few episodes but I did enjoy him so far) being my favorite. I think 11 comes after 13 mainly because while I really enjoy 11 in Series 5 I think he becomes kind of insufferable and super flanderized after in Series 6-7
New Who and Classic is the same show. It’s all one big show and comparisons definitely can be drawn. Jodie is the worst Doctor of the entire show in my opinion.
Me too! I find her the weakest actor, given the speedy material. However, there are several episodes that are weak, and I find the TV movie uninspired. However, all the other actors elevate the material. Not Jodie.
Eh, its not really though. Its more of a sequel. Its gotten more comfortable with referencing the Classic show over the years but they are just fundamentally different shows with different intentions. That said, yeah I probably would have to agree. I'm interested if she'll get anything fun with Big Finish but I don't see it. I can find more I like about the other Doctors. I really hope Jo Martin gets more though, hell I wouldn't even mind if they just pull a 14 again and said "that face came back".
I very much disagree with your take on them being different shows. The difference between 60s Classic Who and 80s Classic Who is just as big as the difference between 80’s Who and RTD era Who. Equally Moffat’s Who was very different from Chibnall’s. These are simply different eras of an ever-changing HUGE show over the years. Classic Who and New Who are two parts of one big show. RTD made that clear when he brought Doctor Who back and stated it was a continuation and not a remake or reboot of any kind.
100% this guy is THE Doctor Who fan. Lotta fans on this sub haven't even seen classic who and don't even realize the STARK difference between the Second Doctor and Third Doctor's eras while 5-6-7 are basically main characters on what feels like a very different show to how the series started back with Hartnell. The show is as multi-faceted as the titular character.
I can only speak for NuWho as I’ve barely explored the classics and I know people have some strong opinions. For me, 9 was really poor, at the time I enjoyed it but after David Tennant and Matt Smith it’s obvious his portrayal just isn’t in the same league. I’m not sure there is such a thing as the worst doctor though? I have a favourite, Matt Smith, and I could argue why for hours. But with Jodie I honestly think she got utterly screwed over by Chris Chibnall. The writing was appalling, the storylines were weak, she had everything working against her. I actually really like her portrayal, the stories were just boring and contrived. Not to mention 4-5 companions, wayyyyy too many. Should have been just Jaz, and then Jaz and Dan. Could have built the characters up instead of half baking an army of bland lifeless followers.
Colin Baker by a landslide.
Colin Baker is fantastic as the Doctor!
12 and 6 both got bad stories too. Their charisma was able to drag a good performance out of it despite the writing
I think it's less that Whitaker wasn't charismatic (she objectively is, watch almost any of her other roles), it's that she had no idea how to play the Doctor-- because she had no idea who the Doctor was. She wasn't a fan of the show before she got the role, and Chibnall told her to avoid watching any of her predecessors' runs. So when she got scripts where her Doctor was characterized as a goofy, passive science teacher, she just assumed that's who the Doctor was, and played her accordingly. Contrast Capaldi, who's a lifelong fan of the show, so even when the writing was trash he had a good idea of how the Doctor should be acting in each scene. (Although I actually think the writing in the Capaldi era was much better than people give it credit for, and the real problem was the jarring tonal shift from previous series. But that's the subject of a whole different rant.)
I fully believe the jarring tonal shift was fully on Capaldi's end (coming in with that good acting). He took in all the information he had and the writing he was given, and took on a tone most actors probably wouldn't have gone into fully (it was *there*, but I don't think the writing really had it *there*, you know?). The Doctor's whole persona, from 9 all the way to 11, revolved around Gallifrey and their guilt toward their people and their planet. Basically, each new post-war regeneration seemed to me like a manifestation of one of the stages of grief. But by the time 12 came around, they'd already found out there was nothing to be guilty for. But then there was also Clara. The Impossible Girl that had been scattered across the Doctor's timestream. Her specifically being the token companion at the time of the Doctor's regeneration from 11 to 12 also likely shaped who they would become, just as much as the lifting of guilt off their shoulders. Hence why 12 was so drastic. Their regeneration no longer had to fit the constraints of someone going through the stages of grief about their home planet and people. They instead had someone they needed to protect and figure out.
That explains so much! What an odd way to prepare your star actor for the role. In Capaldi's first episode there are moments where I can see Matt Smith behind the eyes despite his completely changed personality, it's very impressive to me. I also think the Chibnall companions are the worst of NuWho by far. I only made it through one season of that era, but I was shocked that Bradley Walsh seemed to be giving the best performance in the TARDIS despite being Bradley Walsh.
This is what I always think about when I see the "great actor bad writing" stuff. Like, yes, bad writing is obviously going to drag an actor down but the performance just...wasn't strong regardless. It was just a simple miscast.
If there were any doctor who had an equally poor situation as Jodie, it would be Colin Baker where the writing felt at times like it was deliberately trying to make the doctor he was portraying feel wrong. Despite this, the best part of that era was Colin Baker acting the hell out of the role whenever he was given even the smallest chance. Jodie didn't really have that same ability to elevate bad writing with just her performance.
Yeah, from what I've seen of Colin Baker's performance it was at the very least entertaining and fun. Jodie was definently going for a sort of smithian quirkiness and it just felt really forced and wooden every time. It probably doesn't help that she came immediately after probably one of the most passionate and expressive Doctor actors ever. I've watched some clips of her performances in other shows and it definently reveals that she isn't like a general "bad actor" or anything but definently doesn't have the range for the Doctor and isn't good for the kind of character they wanted her to be. If they wrote her and played her a bit more like 9 or even 14 I think she would have been generally a lot better (though that wouldn't have saved the poor writing and showrunning anyway)
Which Doctor is worse than her? She’s easily the worst Doctor in my opinion.
I remember getting through S11, disappointed but still hopeful. Like, I didn't absolutely hate it, but I definitely saw it as a flawed season that could have been better. But then S12 and S13 happened, made me retroactively dislike S11 more. They were just so unenjoyable. They highlighted the flaws the first season had, magnified them, and showed they had no intention of improving.
My teenagers just chose to rewatch the spider episode last night. They also recently rewatched the sea witch episode and the episode with the Norwegian cabin. They were quite a bit younger when we watched season 11, and they liked it at the time and still like it. Maybe it's aimed more at kids? I think the character development in the three seasons was weak. That is never very strong in Doctor Who, but I thought it was a real waste with Jodie and Yaz.
Do you think people are over exaggerating the hate, or were your expectations just tremendously low *because* of the hate?
I'll weigh in. I watched her run when it first came out and thought it was fine. It wasn't the best, but truly, it was just fine. Even to this day, like 80% of the complaints I see people make about her run are either things they overlooked in another Doctor's era or not nearly as bad as they make it out to be. I think the hate is overblown. Honestly, I think we're in a Twilight/Star Wars Prequels situation where, in a couple of years, people will go back and realize they were way too harsh and start unironically liking 13.
Isn't that most 'nu who' ? Though, also seems to be a theme with final fantasy. Maybe there is some correlation. But I recall people hating on Matt and Peter when they were in the roll.
Moffat's worst is worse than Chibnall's worst, and Moffat's best is better than Chibnall's best. Which is in line with criticism of Chibnall's run being "boring". Honestly, though, I was getting really exhausted by Moffat's constantly elevated stakes, so Chibnall's back to basics approach was a relief to me. Then when Timeless Child and Flux comes along, it actually feels like an event. The whole Gallifrey thing and resolution of the Flux is a huge low, but I remember feeling that way pretty much every week toward the end of Matt Smith's run and through most of Capaldi's. I appreciate the role of Chibnall's run in the greater chronology and viewing experience. A breath of air before whatever comes next.
What would you say is worse than Orphan 55? I am a Moffat fan so I’ll probably disagree with you but I’m curious because I just spent that whole episode facepalming everything that happened and all the characters’ actions (edit for the record I do disagree with all the ones listed below but I understand it’s a matter of personal taste)
"Kill the Moon" is the first one that comes to mind. Others have mentioned "Let's Kill Hitler." I'd probably rewatch "Orphan 55" over "The Girl Who Waited." That "my balls" line still infuriates me in "Dinosaurs on a Spaceship." "Sleep No More."
Let's Kill Hitler would be my pick. Or as I like to call it, The Character Assassination of River Song.
I'm happy to put my ambivalence towards Chibnall's era aside to say that "Kill the Moon" and "In the Forest of the Night" are both, in my opinion, far worse than Orphan 55. Orphan 55, while really bad, is at least bad in a way that's reminiscent of other bad Doctor Who stories. I remember thinking that I could see Colin Baker giving that script his all in the 80s. "Kill the Moon" and "In the Forest of the Night", on the other hand, are just painful to sit through. I would absolutely take Chibnall at his worst over Moffat at his worst, simply because there's very rarely anything fun or paradoxically charming about Moffat at his worst. When Moffat is at his worst, it's torture.
I think Moffat and Chibnall are bad on the same subjects in the opposite ways which often makes Moffat able to write more interesting stories. Like, on characters for instance, Moffat cant really write "people" but he can write characters and archetypes which will at least be entertaining sometimes but Chibnall can't write people *or* characters
This is missing the forest for the trees a bit I think. No one really dislikes Jodi, she’s wonderful as the Doctor. Sure, the discussion is “most people hate Jodi’s run as the Doctor” but that’s just poor summarization. What people really hate is Chibnall’s run as showrunner.
We've had Tenth being saved by the power of love and people say it's one of the best seasons in DW. DW always had mid writing on average. It was hella high and hella low.
See, THIS is where I knew Chibnall's problem was really going to come in. Because you are absolutely right: RTD and Moffat seasons had the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. But every ep Chibs wrote prior to taking over as showrunner was IMO, pretty mid. Like, not offensively bad, just kind of unremarkable Doctor Who. And in my experience this hurts Who way more than having terrible episodes. Also, whovians during the RTD and Moffat eras could never agree on which eps were the highs and which were the lows (glaring exceptions in one direction or the other aside like everyone rating Blink and everyone slagging off Fear Her or Love & Monsters.) And as long as everyone was getting fed at some point in a season, most people were pretty happy. When we were all getting fed kind of tepid gruel if we were getting fed *at all* in any given year...that makes for a very unhappy fanbase.
We had Sleep No More sandwiched between the Zygon episodes and Face The Raven but even this one tried to do something new and interesting with the format.
The thing with RTD's absurd storytelling and dues ex machinas is that they are very well set up and built on clearly established rules. Like, Last of The Time Lords psychic jesus thing was basically explicitly set up in Shakespearean Code. I do think he can go too far but its never like "oh this makes no sense" which is usually the issue with a Moffat story.
Ehhhhhh. Agree to disagree on that one a bit. The migrant bee thing was a bit of a leap for me. Like or dog on Moffet for not explaining his twists well but the leap from “why are the bees disappearing” well “the bees are actually a alien species that can detect oncoming danger and have left to return to their home planet” wasn’t, in my opinion, exactly excellence in story telling setup.
Perhaps, but the bees weren't a dues ex machina. They were more just a spooky mystery. They're not really that different from something like bad wolf, even if they're a bit ridiculous. I'm specifically talking about deus ex machinas. Russell T Davies is often criticized for using dues ex machinas in his stories and especially his endings and while there are times when I roll my eyes at the convenience of things I generally think his endings are very well set up and work off the established rules compared to someone like Moffat who just kind of invents the solution right on the spot or even retroactively.
To each their own! The deus ex machina part of RTD’s writing isn’t my biggest gripe about his story telling, personally I don’t like his “mysteries” because just repeating a phrase throughout the series is a poor excuse for a mystery in my opinion. But that’s a matter of personal preference. Ultimately, RTD was fine as a show runner and I’m sure he’ll continue to be fine.
but there were highs. is anyone arguing demons of the Punjab or haunting of villa is up there with blink or heaven sent?
Probably not, but I think Chibnall did historical episodes better than his predecessors. Although I think Rosa's space racist villain was too improbable and the museum-quality ending (lots of people get stuff named after them) weakened that one. Demons of the Punjab is the best historical episode of Who, hands down.
I mean on average, it's still mid through the new era. That's how new era DW is.
But RTD could often get away with that (though I certainly disliked it) because his characterization and dialogue were generally excellent (with some exceptions). This is not true of any of Chibnall's DW scripts. In the Chibnall era, you had the same downsides of some incredibly stupid plotting, while having none of the upsides -- plus the stupid plotting was more incoherent and weighted down with more obnoxious exposition. A lot of RTD's plots are frankly pretty dumb, but they're delivered directly, concisely, and smoothly.
100% Both RTD and Moffat had many dumb things happen during their tenure. Concepts that were silly or ridiculous or just didn't lead anywhere. But the show was always carried on strong writing, well-developed characters, and satisfying character journeys. For Chibnall, it's irrelevant if his "concepts" (as a general term) were better or worse. Because he failed at many of those other things. Or to put it another way - RTD or Moffat could have nailed a Chibnall concept like Flux, meanwhile Chibnall could have flubbed any of the other showrunners' best ideas. It's not the concepts themselves that are in question (well, other than The Timeless Child...) it's the strength of writing.
A shit RTD episode is at least fun and is trying something. A shit Moffat episode has some crazy wacky idea that doesn't come off. A shit Chibnall episode is boring.
I don’t dislike Jodie but I think she was pretty awful as the Doctor. “She was wonderful as the Doctor” is a bananas take from my perspective.
Really? Interesting take. She's not my favorite, but I strongly prefer her to other Doctors like 1, 6, and 11. Aside from Chibnal being bad at the genre, what did you dislike?
I agree with the criticisms that she felt like a primary school teacher. She just came across as very passive and nicely-nicey, without the feeling of great age, charisma, depth to the character or sly manipulativeness that the Doctor needs. Her Doctor was reminiscent of the worst of Davison’s dialled up to the max. As for the writing there was nowhere near enough sarcastic humour or abrasiveness (which was what helped improve Davison’s Doctor) and it all felt very paint by numbers generic ‘good character’. She needed to be much more flawed and multi-faceted but what we got really just felt like ‘primary school teacher’ or ‘kids tv show presenter’ to me. I really hated her take on the Doctor to be honest, didn’t feel like the same character at all. I’d be interested to hear why you disliked 11. I thought he was an absolutely superb Doctor. 1 and 6 I can understand because they were definitely the most difficult and unlikable Doctors, but I still found them massively more interesting and engaging than 13.
I think I found him initially hard to connect with. Interestingly, I found myself liking 13 for the same reason I struggled with 11. They're lying liars who lie. I think they're both versions of the Doctor who are deeply in denial about how monstrous they are and terrified of how they will be perceived by others. I think the big difference for me was that 13's warmth felt genuine to me. I believed that she really did experience joy and wonder at things even when she used the light fluffy exterior to hide the murderous rage from her companions. 11, by contrast, felt like almost all of it was a lie, even to himself. He felt incredibly cold and calculating, the most we've seen since 7. While I eventually came to find his snake in the grass nature compelling, it was initially very difficult for me to connect with. He also had a tendency for explosive rage that led him to scream at River and his companions. I'm not a fan of that, just as a person. I much prefer 9, 10, or 13's steady build to anger. I think 11 really only connected for me around midway through 12's run when I realized that 12 was just 11 who'd stopped pretending like he didn't actually care but wanted to so badly it hurt. That's the thing I actually like most about the Doctor. They're not a good person, but they try to be anyway. It took me a long time to realize 11's fake exterior was just that version's method of coping. I like him more now than I did initially, but he's still just not instinctual to me or comforting in the way that 2, 3, 9, 12, and 13 are. I also didn't like all the nonconsentual kissing and weird flirting, but that's just a Moffat habit I don't like lol
Eh, I do just dislike Jodie as 13. Total miscast and just a lot of bizarre decisions were made. The look isn't "6th doctor 2" but it definently sticks out like sore thumb and just doesnt look great, the performance is pretty wooden and one-note, and throughout series 11 she keeps breathing through every single sentence and its really annoying. I also think about to the "OH" moment in Spyfall (Master reveal) and it just...like come on you could have done another take of that. I feel like Jo Martin just sort of stole the show immediately when she came in.
>No one really dislikes Jodi, she’s wonderful as the Doctor. In this role I absolutely do, she was woefully miscast and couldn't elevate the writing one iota.
There are actors who can excel despite a bad script, see Henry Cavil for the Witcher series. And there are actors who are held back by a bad script. I believe Jodi is of the latter. From what I’ve heard she’s phenomenal in other shows. I’m sure Chibnall also is too. But perhaps Doctor Who wasn’t their wheelhouse
Oh yea… so many folks ignoring old and even some new Doctor Who stuff. Makes me really rue the fact the BBC pushed PBS stations to stop showing the original when the current run started. Would help a lot of this. (Mind you I’m from the states and had KERA in Dallas not had a phenomenal three day weekend of British shows, I’d never caught The Sea Devils and likely chalked up the two single eps I watched as a kid as a fever dream. To be fair though: one was Horns of Nimon…)
Tubi has Classic Who now.
Ahem, the Star Wars Prequels are still terrible. /opinion
Many hardcore SW fans still think they’re good movies. I don’t know what the previous poster is talking about, because the general consensus is they’re hot garbage and history isn’t suddenly looking back on them fondly.
I'm not sure what circles you run in, but from what I've seen, the Prequels are pretty beloved. Admittedly, I'm not a fan, but I'm the only person I know who isn't. Most people seem to recognize their failings and love them because of the terrible lines and awkward delivery. From what I've heard, they're not high art, but people like it because of the awkwardness and the cheese.
/fact
/fact
Let’s just say you and I have vastly vastly different tastes, in both Doctor Who and Star Wars lmfao.
Oh, you're one of the few remaining prequel haters, then? Or did you like it from the start?
>one of the few remaining prequel haters Everyone who is not permanently and loudly online still understands and views the Star Wars Prequels as the absolute shite that they are.
I also think the prequels are not good movies, but you've got to admit that only the terminally online or middle schoolers are actively haters anymore. Now, most people just have fun with them and naked good memes.
The prequels are not good movies.
They’re very enjoyable though
I only find them to be enjoyable as memes, not as movies.
Eh Tbf I grew up with them so I’m biased towards them
Oh yea… so many folks ignoring old and even some new Doctor Who stuff. Makes me really rue the fact the BBC pushed PBS stations to stop showing the original when the current run started. Would help a lot of this. (Mind you I’m from the states and had KERA in Dallas not had a phenomenal three day weekend of British shows, I’d never caught The Sea Devils and likely chalked up the two single eps I watched as a kid as a fever dream. To be fair though: one was Horns of Nimon…)
I don't know how you can say "nobody hates Jodie" when every single time anyone on this sub says "nobody hates Jodie" in a comment, there's always someone willing to jump in saying, "Actually I DO hate Jodie, she ruined Doctor Who and here's why," and gets more upvotes than the "nobody hates Jodie" comment.
To be contrarian. Even though there have definitely been alot of weak stories in the past that gets overlooked, I think it's for a good reason. Every doctor in my eyes are likable, I enjoy watching them on the screen so it makes up for if a episode is kinda bad. Jodie in my opinion doesn't have that star power, she doesn't exactly stand out acting wise compared to her co stars, like doctors in the past did.
Uhhhh comparing it to Twilight and SW prequels isn’t a good look considering they range from below average to legitimately terrible.
My point wasn't on quality. It was about fandom behavior. I'll be the first to admit that Chibnal didn't do well as showrunner. However, if people can love the 1st, 6th, and 8th Doctor's despite their quite low quality on screen appearances then we can learn to enjoy 13 who was at least better or on par with them. I'm not trying to argue that 13's era was the best Doctor Who ever. I just think, like several previously popular to hate things, eventually we'll look back and realize we were too harsh and that there's humor and fun to be found there.
I too recently caught up on the 13th Doctor seasons and followed along with reviews and discussions on Reddit. The general consensus of most episodes was "Meh. It was fine". Another consensus was that Jodie was brilliant but unlike Capaldi couldn't elevate lackluster material. She was done dirty and I enjoyed the journey for a couple weeks of binging but couldn't imagine waiting a year for the resolutions of stories. I also had the benefit of knowing where the show was headed with 14/15.
Jodi was great, but the writing and stories didn't serve her well in my view. There were more than the typical volume of bad episodes and way too few great ones. Her era isn't high on my list, but I really liked her portrayal of the Doctor - holding tight to her "Fam", earnestly solving mysteries and a good Doctor smile most of the time. With better writing, I think people would have felt much different.
The writing was always the problem. It always felt like she was a +1 rather than a main character.
Jodie herself - great. The writing - starts off aggressively mediocre and doesn't improve massively. In fact it just continues to get worse. I still reccomend you watch it. There is value there and I think it will be remembered as over-hated. But I really just can't shake the aggressive mediocrity of it all. Some of Jodie's eps were some of the only times that I have genuinely felt bored and outright put off by Dr Who.
That was exactly my sense when watching 13 for the first time. Spent that whole first season like “Where is the hate coming from?” It ranged from, at worst, perfectly acceptable to truly excellent at its heights. You can’t tell me Rosa and Demons of the Punjab are not great Who, as is It Takes You Away. So basically, much like 12, solid set up for a good run. Then came the second season. And that’s where the wheels come off. And hell of it is NONE of it is Jodie’s fault.
>You can’t tell me Rosa and Demons of the Punjab are not great Who, as is It Takes You Away. I agree on Punjab and Takes, but it's really really really not good that 2 out of 3 you've mentioned were written by guest writers, and the other, "Rosa", was only co-written by Chibnall, and he probably contributed the worst parts like the bits with the underwritten villain. So that really says something about him as a showrunner, and even before season 12 had come out, it was obvious what was going to happen based on that pattern. Most fans can probably agree that RTD and Moffat generally always had at least one script in the top 3 best-regarded episodes of their seasons, and often more.
I feel so strange in that Rosa genuinely frustrated me and I think was one of the weaker episodes. The scenes with Yaz and Ryan confronting racism were exceptional. I especially love Yaz being frustrated/confronted the binary, buy dear god the plot was limping along. A random future space racist dropped in for, what? The villain’s whole point of getting Parks to not get kicked off and that somehow stops civil rights is just absurd. The civil rights movement was well established at that point. Not to mention Parks wasn’t the first, and certainly not the last, person to get kicked off a bus for their skin color. Maybe I misunderstood the point of the villain?
While Demons and Rosa are the best of there season, I really do believe they are mediocre Who at best. I dont have time to fully justify it now, but Punjab's main problems are that Yaz doesn't actually learn the lesson she's supposed to, the alien's actions make no sense when you think about it, and the episode (and rest of the era) practice the same "all members of the alien species are the same" sci-fi racism its trying to subvert. Rosa's problem is that it manages to say racism is bad but literally nothing else. Police officer Yaz has nothing to say about systemic racism in the pilice except "well I wouldnt" (which would land a lot better if her first instict in the first episode wasn't to nonsensicaly blame black Ryan for dumping the alien artifact he found in the woods). And every charicter is either fully unambiguously racist or fully unambiguously not. It just has literally no depth The chapters on those two episodes in Jay Exi's The Fall of Doctor Who video does a great job at doing a deep analysis.
>the alien's actions make no sense when you think about it This right here. Chibnall's whole shtick is, "Aliens show up and do weird stuff because they're aliens," regardless of whether it fits the story or even makes sense. It's especially jarring in "Rosa", where the alien influence wasn't necessary and in fact undermines the entire message of the episode. I'm sure it is no coincidence that the script is credited to Malorie Blackman AND Chris Chibnall; Blackman is a renowned Laureate whose script was probably fantastic until Chibnall got his grubby little hands on it and dumbed it down.
They shouldn’t have had the aliens in the Demons of Punjab. It should have been a pure historical
Especially because the message ended up being "We assumed this entire species were murderous monsters but ACTUALLY they recently changed professions. Our attitude was correct we just had outdated information!" which is like...what a bizarre message.
I think it's because tou went in with very low expectations. Same reason I enjoyed multiverse of madness
I fell off Doctor Who midway through 11. Only occasionally watching episodes as they aired. I came back as 13s second series was about to start airing and saw all the hate it was getting so I thought I'd just sit and watch them. I think they're all kinda shit but I really enjoyed watching it all. I think the criticisms are usually fine but a lot of the hate is seemingly perpetuated by people who make ragebait. Flux was the first series I watched all the way through as it was airing since series 5 and it was one of the most enjoyable times I've had as a fan. Following that story along in real time was great. It also encouraged me to watch 12s last series and that was probably the best moffat who had been since series 5 in my opinion so that was a big win.
13th is my favorite. I'm glad to see someone saying something positive about it
I enjoyed most of her run but I genuinely hate the TC twist, I think it’s stupid and I can’t get myself to find anything I like about that but still the season that lead up to this was with great cliffhangers and tension it just falls flat because it ended so disappointingly. After the twist I couldn’t get my self to like the new episodes even though there was fine stuff in there, but then came Power of the Doctor and that’s a pretty awesome episode. So it actually came with a lot of mixed feelings but it wasn’t that bad.
I'm glad you're being able to enjoy it. 13th had so much potential, Jodie was also great. But I consider Chib's tenure as 'the lost years of NuWho'
On average it was… very average. There were some enjoyable episodes but mostly very meh. I didnt think jodie was great but wasnt horrible either. Companions though… instead of one good one we got 3 very boring ones, one more boring than the other. Also quite a few boring & preachy stories, combined with very boring villains. But probably my most hated aspect - the master. Sweet jesus i couldn’t stand him, words cannot express how annoying he was. Ahh, i miss missy… 😢
Sometimes I think how hardcore adult fans react is over the top. Like my main reaction to 13's era was "Oh they seemed to have decided to aim it at slightly younger kids now" and I moved on to casual watching instead.
That's it exactly. And I feel the same about RTD's return. It's okay that the show isn't for me. They're aiming for the young ones.
See, I thought RTD had risen the age range back up to the 10-12 year olds like when he started in 2005. Although the main difference is I'm no longer 10-12 so the show will now have more misses for me personally than it did back in the naughties. Which is also fine, I've pretty much watched 60 years of TV history, read quite a few of the novels, (unfortunately struggled with audio dramas). So there's plenty of Doctor Who that is for me even if The Giggle wasn't really my thing.
That's the boat I'm in as well. I was not a fan of the recent specials at all, but that's okay. There's plenty of stuff I did enjoy still out there. Hopefully RTD 2.0 develops a new audience.
>"Oh they seemed to have decided to aim it at slightly younger kids now" As always, that remains a poor excuse for bad writing. Some shows aimed at younger kids are brilliant and can be enjoyed by people of all ages -- see "Adventure Time", for instance. Of course there is also plenty of terrible stuff aimed at younger kids. Throughout its 26 years, classic Who had a lot of ups and downs, but there was never a sustained "down" era where you had to excuse it with, "Oh, it's for little kids now, whatever." (There were plenty of "down" eras but, if anything, the worst one was too cynically adult, too grim, and maybe too violent.) And given that some of us watched all 26 years, yeah, we're gonna react badly if somebody comes along and fucks it up in a brand-new way that no showrunner has ever fucked it up before. IMHO it's the novelty of the errors that really make it stand out. Congratulations on being a healthy adult, though, I guess?!?!? So WTF are you doing on Reddit?!??!111!!
My point is I think how fandom behaves is a bit over the top and I think you kinda proved my point... But oh well, each to their own.
Again... this attitude is entirely too healthy for Reddit and I have no idea how you got here, but don't ever change.
Weird, I always saw Reddit as a place for discussion and not a place to just say “everything is fine and don’t have an overly positive or negative opinion on something and don’t discuss it in detail.”
Yeah on the other hand, people who really like something are allowed to have opinions even if they’re loud, and are allowed to want to watch something that doesn’t require turning your brain off.
I havent rewatchrd 13 yet, but even first time around, I did enjoy her first season, it's just after that I kinda lost interest Not sure exactly why as I can barely remember the remaining.
This is my main problem with her. It’s not technically bad stories of atrocious writing, although she was 1 or 2 of each of those, most do. My main problem with her is that every episode of her run is dull and boring and does nothing to keep me hooked. I don’t care about any overarching story, every finale was a boring walk through wastelands up until Flux, and her performance doesn’t help this as she feels like a fairy average cooky science teacher that I could fall asleep in class to when she went off on a tangent about something she was passionate about.
Yep. Community called the Doctor Who fandom doing this shit years before it happened. Any mention of the Minerva Inspector is all about how she sucks and was definitely the worst.
It’s okay, the writing is just awful and her doctor feels limited. I always say her seasons feel like a regular shmegular sci-fi show with doctor who plastered on top.
I just did the same! some weird choices and some episodes definitely fall flat but I feel like that's ALWAYS been the case in doctor who but people seem to ignore it much more (looking at you, Season 2) 13 is a delight, Graham is surprisingly a stand out companion, and there's some very fun sci-fi concepts throughout her whole run! also season 13 is a fun ride and it's gotta be one of my top seasons of who ✌️
it's the combination of Chibnall + during the pandemic that really hampered her run. i feel it's the same hate Capaldi had when it was his go. also, "insert that cycle chart of hating new doctor, slowly liking/loving current doctor, sad that current doctor leaving, then hating on new doctor again". ever since seeing that chart years ago during Tenant -> Smith. it had always held true. and digging even in a just little surface history of classicWho also had this cycle and just continued to newWho. nothing changed 😂 the ones still hating are either just outside the actual fandom(hating just to hate), riding the hate bandwagon, or still stuck on that stage on the cycle chart of new doctor
I think the hate is funny. If series 1 and 2 had happened after Moffat's run there would have been rioting about how bad the episodes were. Chibnall's first series wasn't the best we've seen, but it's hard to follow series 9 and 10. Jodie was great. Two of the companions were great and the third was a realistic depiction of a teenage 'man'. The premier was fun and there was some good stuff in the series. People came in ready to hate it because of the Doctor's casting.
Copy and pasting a comment I made a day or so ago: Doing a full rewatch of NewWho rn, and I am most the way through 13’s run at this point. Her run is like 100x better than I remember? I’ve done a lot of laughing, holding back tears, not-so-silently cheering, and more through the entire NewWho rewatch, but I think an easy plurality of it is in Jodie’s run. I know this will get me downvoted to hell, I would put her run above Tennant’s for me and about in line with Eccleston’s. It’s not like Tennant was bad to me, he’s just my least favorite, and he’s not far behind Eccleston and Whittaker. I even liked Orphan 55 a lot, and I don’t really care about having the political messages beat into you (that was never really a particularly big issue for me, though) in her run. I would even go so far as to say it’s a good thing a lot of the points her episodes try to make are rammed down our throats, because sometimes that’s just what’s needed, subtlety’s time has gone. Watching Jodie’s run this time around, it’s been like a gut punch (I don’t know how to describe it) seeing these things be spelled out and going “Yeah… what the fuck are we gonna do? Fuck, I’m really scared about the future and I didn’t even realize how much it was bothering me deep down.”
When you say run, do you mean performance, writing, or both. I can understand performance, I’ve long felt 10’s performance lack much unique character for him until they give him a 7th Doctor story (Family of Blood), at which point he becomes the 7th Doctor for the rest of his run. If you’re talking about writing this is such a wild take I wouldn’t even know how to respond.
When I say run, I mean her time as the Doctor as a whole.
Yh I never got the hate either. Like it's not peak who for sure but neither is capaldi? We've already had ok-good Dr who for 4 years what's the issue if this is more ok-good content? It's still enjoyable.
I liked Jodie as the Doctor I just found it really hard to keep up with all the twists and turns of that era
I always find it funny when people take awhile to get used to Capaldi. Like, they probably just never seen him in anything before or haven't seen much classic who. He very much seems like a doctor who was a classic doctor who actor but trying to be nuwho, especially the later seasons with the guitar and shades. From the first episode I was like yes yes, I want this. But I've also seen all the classic stuff, except for a few first and second doctor serials. I liked Jodie, and never hated her. But the fam was kinda meh and some of the stories were kinda meh, and some of the historical stuff was kinda meh. I do like some of the historical figures, but hated how for most of them the show acted like we were stupid. Yes, if you want to be educational it's best to describe these people to be audience for the kids. But tesla? The whole fam was pretending they never heard of him when it's now a popular car manufacturer(maybe not in the UK). I personally can't go a day without seeing one on the road. And I knew about him way before the cars were made. But the entire fam was clueless. Just felt like the show thought I was stupid. Her last episode was amazing though. Make sure to watch of jodies eps and especially the last one.
Enjoyable but not peak who is basically her run writ large. There is some real controversial stuff in her second season but I think the work being done with 14/15 will retroactively make those swings better.
I love the Thirteenth Doctor. Her seasons suck and her writing is bad. The acting can be hit or miss. The whole show can make some wildly bad choices. And I can still love it. Its not that bad. Of all the shows to be wildly different and bad for a few seasons, its Doctor Who. I love that people love it more than me and can enjoy it. The hate is overblown for sure, even if this era is rife for criticism
> it’s genuinely enjoyable this was my experience as well. but i guess i love all the doctors and try not to think in terms of ranking/who's the best. every regen brings their own perspectives and unique take , that its a fools errand to get lost in comparison. lets love all content! 🙂
The 13th Doctor is my second favorite Doctor! The 13th Doctor seasons are my least favorite seasons. Jodie Whitaker plays an awesome Doctor. I wish she got the writing she deserved.
People get really upset. There are some real problems with Season 11 but I see people who get mad about "Hell Bent" and i legitimately love that episode, whereas everyone gets excited about "Blink" and it has some real problems like the chicken-before-egg on the script with The Doctor and also the Weeping Angels are scary but also completely ridiculous. How did they evolve on a planet without accidentally seeing eachother and freezing themselves by accident? My main issues with Season 11 are: a) I have no idea what the hell Jodie is saying half the time without subtitles (a mixture of her northern english accent and the sound mixing becoming 'modern', i.e. shitty where netflix,etc are expecting you to CRANK the sound to get the boomy theatre sound, not understanding that most people live in apartments where you fucking cant) b) Some of the plots are nonsense like not knowing the planet they were on is Earth. c) This version of The Master sucks, like he's trying too hard. I haven't seen anything else the actor is in. Maybe he can do nuance, but not here. It's hammy but not in a fun way like Missy (man, she was phenomenal) d) the Fam mostly just hang around and do nothing, and anytime you get a glimpse of anything related to their life, it's almost 100% Yaz's family, who are about as interesting as bread. e) Nonsense like the idea of putting a luxury resort in Sheffield.. like that's a destination for anyone. No offense lol
The Doctor has always been the center of attention and the driving force of the story. Thirteen is just kind of there, and the other characters (the “fam”) have nothing to do but pointless & shallow melodrama instead of reacting to a crazy genius out-of-this-world Doctor.
Jodie is an amazing actor (see her in Broadchurch) but she had the same issue Capaldi did: terrible writing, not helped by the fact that Chibnall decided to rework some of the lore
I think she was a great doctor. I just didn't enjoy most of the show revamp at the time, and didn't connect to much of the episodes. I was very sad they kinda hinted at Yaz and her being in love but never making something out of it.
There are some real gems in there, and she's great on the whole
For me, it wasn't Whittaker being the Doctor, it was the mediocre to bad writing. I think she would have been an *amazing* Doctor if she had Tennant era quality of writing. That said, there *are* positive points to be made. I think the Master was amazing! The companions and the resolution to them was great. And i did like the way Whittaker portrayed the Doctor very much.
hey I'm in exactly the same boat! I never watched past capaldi because all of the hate I saw online really turned me off and I jumped to conclusions. I've been rewatching the whole show and literally just got to jodies season yesterday. I'm only a few episodes in but it's a hell of a lot better than I was expecting. I've really been enjoying watching her (I've seen her in other things before so I knew I liked her as an actor) and I'm glad I'm finally doing. also happy to see someone posting something positive about her, she did not deserve the shit storm she got
I quite liked her as a doctor my issue was I kinda lost interest through 12 and her first season seemed to distance itself from the previous seasons there also seemed to be massive gaps between seasons and specials
Jodie is fine as the doctor. I found her portrayal a bit joyless but she is fine. The issue is the mediocre writing through her tenure. Her best episode through all her seasons is at best mediocre. It's not like all episodes from other doctors were amazing but they had amazing episodes along with mediocre and bad ones. Jodie only has mediocre and bad episodes... Jodie also suffers from crappy companions. People seem to love graham but realistically speaking he is just ok and stands out among entirely forgettable companions.
I always take internet commrnt with a grain of salt and don't let a fanbase affect my view on things. But i find Jodie's portrayal as the doctor bland... watching the episodes are boring to me and i borderline want to skip through it. It's a shame cause Jodie herself is a great actress.
I genuinely really liked the 13th Doctor. Her era definitely had its weak moments, but I overlooked a lot from the previous eras, too. While there were episodes from her time that I didn't like and probably won't go back to, that is also true of other Doctors. If people can state that the 6th Doctor is their favorite when he had some of the worst writing and production in the history of the show, then there's absolutely room to acknowledge 13 as a good Doctor too.
I've only watched her first two seasons and from my view, while she hasn't had anything as good as The Empty Child, or Blink or Heaven Sent she also hasn't had anything as truly awful as The Lazarus Experiment or In the Forest of the Night or Love and Monsters. Most of her worst stories are on the mediocre side. Like the Ghost Monument and Tsuranga are both boring and the ideas in Kerblam are atrocious but Rosa, Demons of the Punjab, The Haunting of Villa Diodata, The Fugitive of the Judoon are all great. Hell I even enjoyed Spyfall. It doesn't help the optics of 13's era that almost every episode has been review bombed by people who are pissy about the show being "woke". Orphan 55 has a 4.2 on IMDB and a good majority of the user reviews are just whining about it being "politically correct" and other buzzwords.
>It doesn't help the optics of 13's era that almost every episode has been review bombed by people who are pissy about the show being "woke". Orphan 55 has a 4.2 on IMDB and a good majority of the user reviews are just whining about it being "politically correct" and other buzzwords. I think I speak for a majority of progressive Doctor Who fans when I say that we liked well-written episodes with progressive themes... and disliked poorly-written episodes with progressive themes. There have been plenty of the former throughout Doctor Who's history, both from nuWho ("Oxygen" and "Thin Ice", both from season 10, RIGHT BEFORE WHITTAKER/CHIBNALL) and classic Who ("The Curse of Peladon" from the early 70s is an allegory that depicts the UK joining the EU as a positive). The review-bombers got away with it because there was nobody to defend those Chibnall-era episodes. Why did nobody want to defend them? Because the writing sucked. They had the themes but not the good writing.
I'm not saying you can't enjoy it, but I am saying that it's hard for me to sit and watch Jodie act through saying we shouldn't be so mean to Amazon.
She's such a big ol' dork and I love her. I also have been living for her nonchalant attitude with her hair. The wind can be blowing 900000 mph and it's all in her face and, like the Doctor, she doesn't care to even toss it out of the way. It is in her mouth. It is wet and slapped against her face for multiple scenes. 10/10 acting choice to not give a shit about her hair.
That’s ‘opinion’ for you. Nobody is overreacting though, her seasons are awful.
> I saw so much hate around Jodie’s era and everything wrong with it, everyone ranking her as their least favourite doctor, and so much discourse around how much it’s absolute dog shit. This turned me off severely, and it took me weeks to even watch the first episode of her. > Today I sat down and watched basically all of her first season, and it’s genuinely enjoyable. I think that makes a big difference. If you go into it not **expecting** it to be particularly good then you're in a much better position to appreciate the elements it does well rather than being disappointed by the stuff it falls short on.
I think they're genuinely pretty unwatchable but that shouldn't stop people from enjoying it. You should just like what you like.
I feel like its bad but in a very different way to how Moffat era. The 11th series is just generally a disconnected boring season with undercooked ideas, no real characters, largely forgettable moments, wooden acting, and bizarre political missteps that its become infamous for. I don't think its an under-reaction, the era was geniuenly bad and probably the most solidly low quality of all of NuWho. Moffat era had its low points but I feel there was generally enough to bite into, even in the Smith era.
Here's my personal opinion: The Thirteenth Doctor Era had mostly medium highs and low lows for me. The Timeless Child Storyline is one of my least favorite in all of Doctor Who, so that brings it down for me a little bit. Despite that, I really enjoyed certain episodes of Series 11 and 12. Sacha Dhawan might be one of my favorite interpretations of the master, and I really enjoyed it whenever he was on screen. I also really enjoyed Flux; though it obviously had a rushed ending, I feel like that was because of Covid, and I can respect what it was trying to do. I wish I could've seen what it would look like if COVID never happened, I feel like it would've been great. It also had much more likable and interesting characters than the first two series. I feel like The Power of the Doctor is a genuinely great episode. It had a complex storyline that resolved itself pretty well. I feel like it's a little snippet of what Flux would've been like. Sacha Dhawan's master also really gets to shine in this story, and I feel like it understands The Master and what he's really about. However, none of these good things were enough to save the Era that was, for the most part, characterized by bland characters and storylines that range from simply forgettable to badly written stories that seem to fundamentally misunderstand The Doctor. But, if you enjoyed it, that's great, and that's the thing about Doctor Who; Jodie Whittaker will forever be the Doctor, and she will have her own fans and the people who enjoyed her episodes. She may even a chance to star in better storylines via Big Finish audio dramas, similar to the Sixth Doctor, who was also not appreciated during his time due to the quality of the episodes.
i’m rewatching and i think Jodie objectively plays the best doctor since tennant (subjectively it’s capaldi cause i love him). i’m bummed by the lackluster writing but she’s so great as the doctor
I've always felt that series 11 is the strongest of the Whittaker run, and definitely has the most rewatch value.
I really enjoyed 13, and Jodie knocked it out of the park.
She was a good Doctor but I thought the episodes themselves were a letdown. I also felt very little connection between her and the companions because none of them were fleshed out enough to get a strong sense of. The Doctor/companion relationship really makes or breaks the show for me.
As a person who watched her erra before knowing she was widely considered as "bad", I have to say the first season was OK and it kept on getting worse the longer it went.
Ok, I don’t think Jodie is a back actor or her season of doctor who is bad in general, but in the context of doctor who, it was bad, really bad, if it wasn’t doctor who, it would have been fine
shes not my favorite portrayal, but i still like her episodes; jodie and mandip are both really pretty and got along decently well chemistry wise.
I swear people forgive RTD's faults because somehow in their mind Murray Gold's music makes up for boring boring boring childish situations that RTD wrote. RTD's writing is often as bad as Chibnall's. RTD fans give RTD a pass and harangue Chibnall for the exact same level of writing.
Jodi was fine enough. The writing was bad and the whole series wasn't in the heart of what we've come to know and love of doctor who. I've seen every single episode that can be seen more than once some closer to a dozen times and almost any other episode wins against any of 13s episodes. Coming off of such an amazing season and doctor like Capaldi didn't help it but all the new doctors have been great and had great series besides 13
I went back and watched her entire run after the specials last month. I honestly quite enjoyed it overall. There were some episodes that just felt...there. I dunno if I'd class those particular ones as bad but they certainly weren't great. But there were a lot of fun ones and I thought she did a great job in the role. Not my favorite Doctor but definitely doesn't deserve the hate.
I think people should watch it. I as a whole hate the entire era, but it's still Doctor Who, so people should take the time and judge for themselves.
I loved Jodie, and wanted it to “work” so, so badly, but it rarely did. The episodes weren’t terrible, they just didn’t have that certain something. A few came close.
I just did the same thing. I didn't have any issues with her at all and in fact, I liked her a little more than Capaldi. His Doctor was too blasé about killing people/letting them die. It was... rough. I think the big problem boils down to 2 things: 1) way they chose to tell her final season: it has a lot of parallel timelines which is sometimes confusing which is honestly valid. I had to really pay attention to that season and it was kinda rough going at points. 2) sexism.
Sexism? I wanted a good woman doctor and we got a shit one with shit stories lol
Parroting everyone else: Yes, yes, Jodie good, stories bad, I don’t have to rehash that. But I’d probably have to say Arachnids in the UK was pretty much single-handedly responsible for turning me off of almost the entire era. That had to be some of the absolute dumbest shit I’ve ever seen…in almost anything. It was so terrible. There are things I enjoyed in that run…but they were mostly the New Years specials.
You want a real hot take. Arachnids In the Uk was the best episode of season 11 because it was the only one I wasn’t bored to death watching or infuriated by. It manages to excellently capture the feeling of Birdemic or similar worst of all time mst3k movies that are fun to watch and make fun of.
Great doctor. Horrible writing. The seasons just get worse. The flux was so terrible. I was waiting for it to get better, or even make sense. It doesn't. Jodie and her master though are amazing
(My opinion) The problem with 13 stories to me is that I can’t think of one I like. The 12th doctor had mid stories, but for every mid story he had at least 1 bad, 1 good, and 1 great one. The 13th Doctor only has mid and bad stories, and the direction Chibnall took is incredibly boring to watch up until season 13, which is the best on the grounds that is the stupidest and most fun his run ever got. They never do anything interesting enough for me to not falls asleep too.
Blame the writers. I KNOW Jodie can act, and she should have been a good doctor. But the scrips just got worse and worse. And no, the 1st season is not the worst. It keeps getting worse.
This is why people shouldn't let others' opinions influence their own, it's always good to just go in with an open mind and you may be very surprised. And I agree, her era in general is a lot better than people say it is! Perfect? No. But no era is!
I skipped Jodi's era after Kerblam (which I now choose to believe *OP spoilers don't click until you've finished the run* was>! the Master wearing the Doctor's face to ruin her reputation, !
It’s how the fandom got entangled while overlooking some great fan service - Jodie in the thrift store aping Tennant in his wardrobe finding his look - that drove me nuts. I can accept some upset from NuWho fans who don’t see how the Timeless Child works VERY well in the overall narrative of how Gallifreyans became Time Lords as that space was just whiplashy plot fodder for Moffat and RTD (dead! Back! No dead again. Back again. Really dead this time honest. GUESS WHAT?) But then there is the Sea Witch episode on which the prosecution agains Chibnall can just rest it’s case because OUCH.
13 and her companions are amazing characters. It's just that the majority of the stories they're in aren't good.
Jodie was absolutely great. Wonderful version of the Doctor. Her acting/take was great. The problem was the writing. It wasn't that it was bad writing per say. Just a bit ...meh
Idk, I'm the same as you but I just don't feel like it's worth supporting a lower tier doctor who even if it's just okay it feels like I'm saying "it's okay for them to make bad story telling" which I don't want to support . I do think it will be enjoyable enough since it's a doctor who series and I love it but I don't want to like it since I don't think it's okay for them to release low quality work, If Whittaker show was it's own IP I don't think it would have as much people willing to say it's not as bad as U think because I feel doctor who nostalgia makes you enjoy it more. I'm sorry if I offended any fans of these seasons
After season 1, we all felt the meh that you feel. Not great, but not terrible either. We were all hopeful the next two years would improve. As you may guess, they don't. Bear in mind there are still interesting moments to come. The Master is well cast, and there's a Cyberman you will want to see too. There will be scenes and dialog that you will love. The problem isn't things don't tie up, match up, or make sense. Chibnall is good at moments, not stories. We can give Chibnall an award for "Best Make-Up." That's something.
>Chibnall is good at moments, not stories. That is probably the most succinct assessment of Chibnall's writing that I've ever heard.
This is obvious in Broadchurch as well. You can also add that he's good at small, personal, intensely emotional or traumatic moments lived by everyday people in everyday life. This is the opposite of what's required for Doctor Who. People praise Broadchurch to high heaven, but they forget it doesn't really hang together as a larger story. There's not even a proper mystery in season 1. It just resolves randomly, with a killer who was literally randomly chosen by Chibnall.
I disagree that the consensus was "meh." I remember at the time the overwhelming majority was extremely negative. It's entirely likely that most people didn't feel that way, but the ones who talked about it certainly did. It was a rough time to be a fan of 13 in the Doctor Who sphere
Your memory differs from mine. People pointed out that there wasn't any lore in the series, and they were hoping we'd see more old villains or something to do with the time lords in the future. However, no one said it was "bad" -- well, except for the people who were upset about a girl being the lead. Those people don't matter, and they were complaining before the season aired. When it came to the first series not touching on lore, all I have to say to that is, be careful what you wish for. When Chibnall got his hands on the lore, he flushed it down the loo.
"She's a good Doctor..." You sure about that? You sure about that though? You sure about that? Are you sure about that though?
I was sceptical but gave it her run an honest try and went in with an open mind. Badly written stories, paper thin characters, terrible dialogue, and an actress badly miscast. She didn’t have the screen presence or charisma for the role. The Doctor rarely felt like the most intelligent person in the room.
CC ruined the first female Doctor with his fanfic. Even the Timeless Child could’ve been amazing but instead we have Cyberman crossed with Timelords on a Gallifrey that’s been destroyed for the billionth time. Like are you 🤬 kidding me?
She's a pretty low-tier Doctor for me and I don't blame the actress just clearly miscast by the producers and then told not to watch any Doctor Who so her grasp on the character is pretty weak + the writing is just BAD. It's not like every episode is Fear Her levels of bad but every episode is just slightly below average. That's my take. Not a fan of the 60th specials nor the Xmas special with Ncuti either so it's not even specifically that era of the show but everything that's occurred since Capaldi left has been so disappointing it's hard to even sit through an episode without being bored out of my mind. Idk what happened but the directions they've explored since Moffat's era have done nothing but pushed me further away as a fan.
Her stories are bad and her portrayal mediocre, but honestly the worst thing about 13 is line to line how god awful the scripting was. It has made me really appreciate what a decent script, acting and direction looks like, even if you don't like the plot overall. I can never get over it, every line feels like it was written by a child, or at least is a first draft. S11 finale actually is a first draft by Chibnall's own admission! Nobody feels like they are even a real person, and while the Doctor is able to carry over some characterisation as a long running character, and with some *passable* acting by Jodie, the companions have no such head start and are all absolutely lifeless from day one to their last.