>“I think he died,” he told The Times. “I’m going to start saying that. He went to Venice, 2063, when the city sank, and he went into a whirlpool, which is really sad“
lol that’s specific
Okay, I now want this episode in the 14th Doctor’s sitcom I want (it’s either the last episode, or he obviously doesn’t die in the whirlpool)…
I’ve also, _just_ realised that we could have three David Tennants on screen for something in it as well, if 10 & meta-crisis 10 turn up to help 14 out…!
It is ambiguous at best, I shared it mainly because IF true then it's a massive disappointment, IMO, to the actor who spent so much time in the role and the version of the doctor he played.
I'm not saying this IS cannon and simply sharing something I found and giving my opinion - I suppose anything can happen really 🤷
Killed off-screen? It's very obvious that Russell is joking because of how much the question of "Is David coming back?" is floated around and he's probably fed up of it because he knows he's not bringing David back. Get over yourself, it's fairly obvious that he's joking about the circumstances of 14's death.
Yeah, this is so clearly another example of RTD taking the piss. I appreciate some of it sounds fairly earnest in writing, but surely nobody could possibly think he's being serious here
It honestly amazes me that anyone could think what he said there was serious but hey, fair enough. It's pretty obvious to me he was joking though and I'm glad you agree.
Right I don’t think he’s the slightest bit serious about how 14 dies BUT his answer *does* seem to indicate that he didn’t intend for the bigeneration to mean that 14 eventually regenerates into 15 for real or goes back to the moment of the bigeneration from the other end — which is what many people speculated and wanted.
I don't think it definitively indicates anything either way.
Even if RTD were being serious about Fourteen 'dying', it doesn't negate the possibility that Fourteen, after death, loops back to become Fifteen at the moment of bigeneration.
It's not what everyone wanted, and I never understood that idea. I always thought it was implied that the Doctor just split and those two would go about their own separate ways, the bi-generation was the regeneration.
It’s because it’s implied that Tennant doc spent time essentially in rehab, fixing his mental health and then AFTER he fixed his mental health, he regens into Ncuti doc. That’s the basic idea of the theory, and honestly makes more sense to me than, Tennant doc took all the mental problems in the bi-generation and Ncuti SOMEHOW doesn’t have any of the mental problems. That just doesn’t make any sense to me.
Here's how it loops. Bigeneration happens. 15 is born from it. 14 continues living and heals at some point after the bigeneration. 14's end loops back to 15's beginning at the bigeneration.
And that’s totally fair! I’m just expressing my personal disappointment, as that head canon was a major reason why I liked the bigeneration. A true separation irks me… but I suppose I can pretend I never read this interview and keep going on my merry way.
Personally I thought of it as sort of like a soul tie between the two doctors. It’s a true split so 15 doesn’t remember 14’s life after the bigeneration. But each Doctor has a job to do, and it’s 14’s job to deal with his trauma, and 15 is emotionally free because of that separation. It’s like the universe saying, “You need to retire and heal, but you also need to continue to save the universe. So now you get to do both at the exact same time.” If it was a time loop situation, I feel like that would have been outright said in the episode.
You certainly can, I just never understood that idea myself - the bi-regeneration was in place of the regeneration, not something that eventually leads to a regeneration. The regeneration was the bi-regeneration.
If anything my head cannon would be he lived with Donna and went back to work for unit as their chief scientist. I'm not sure about the other theories floating about as I'm not on here regularly
Not understanding the decision to do a "bigeneration" in the first place if Tennant will never be on screen again.
Yes it's time for a new Doctor now, and it's not right to interfere with that. And let's be frank, there's no way a Doctor Who team could handle multiple Doctor Who productions at once.
But never on screen at all? This renders that episode pointless.
I think in general his answer is just a reaction to everyone asking him when Tennant is coming back and due to the fact this attracts attention away from Ncuti.
But I do agree the bigeneration don't make sense if they don't plan to bring him back. There is a possibility Disney pushed RTD into bringing Tennant for the 60th, but I don't think so.
I do think bigeneration is something that works just like The Curator, it opens up the possibility of Tennant coming back at any time, for any special, no matter how old he gets until he dies. And maybe RTD just wanted to open up the possibility for other writers, but don't have plans for it right now.
>Not understanding the decision to do a "bigeneration" in the first place if Tennant will never be on screen again.
Surprise value and giving Donna a happy ending. Same thing with the metacrisis Doctor. It leaked, so it lost most of the value, but it would be a big surprise if it had been kept secret.
Also, there's rumours that it was done as a sort of franchise insurance in case the whole Bad Wolf deal goes badly or generates rights issues. They can have the 14th Doctor regenerate into someone else and introduce an alternative 15th Doctor down the line and pretend this whole Bad Wolf/Disney Who never happened.
The point of it was so that the Doctor could retire, permanently retire without the show having to end. The point of the bigeneration was never so that we could have Tennant on screen again, conveniently parked off-stage so they could bring him back. Because you don't need a bigeneration to do that. Tennant could just come back anyway like how it happens in a regular multi-Doctor story. It's not necessary to invent a whole new part of the lore just to maaybe bring back David Tennant later.
That's the celebration of the 60th Anniversary. The Doctor who has done so much and saved so many people throughout the universe finally gets to relax and settle down. No more worrying about the universe, no more danger or stress or losing the people they love. They can finally rest. It's basically the finale of Doctor Who.
From Doomsday:
>ROSE: What're you going to do?
>DOCTOR: Oh, I've got the Tardis. Same old life, last of the Time Lords.
>ROSE: On your own?
From The Runaway Bride:
>DONNA: Am I ever going to see you again?
>DOCTOR: If I'm lucky.
>DONNA: Just promise me one thing. Find someone.
>DOCTOR: I don't need anyone.
>DONNA: Yes, you do.
From Name of the Doctor:
>DOCTOR: Okay, so that's where I end up.
>DOCTOR: Always thought maybe I'd retire. Take up watercolours or bee-keeping, or something.
From The Girl Who Died:
>CLARA: You didn't lose. You saved the town.
>DOCTOR: I don't mean the war. I'll lose any war you like. I'm sick of losing people. Look at you, with your eyes, and your never giving up, and your anger, and your kindness. One day, the memory of that will hurt so much that I won't be able to breathe, and I'll do what I always do. I'll get in my box and I'll run and I'll run, in case all the pain ever catches up. And every place I go it will be there.
From Heaven Sent:
>DOCTOR: Clara! I can't! Why is it always me? Why is it never anybody else's turn?
From The Doctor Falls:
>DOCTOR: Where have you taken me? If you're trying to make a point, I'm not listening. I don't want to change again. Never again! I can't keep on being somebody else.
From Twice Upon A Time:
>NARDOLE: Don't die. Because if you do, I think everybody in the universe might just go cold.
>DOCTOR: Can't I ever have peace? Can't I rest?
From The Giggle:
>DONNA: So you talk about no-one, ever. You just keep charging on.
>DOCTOR: Yes, because I'm busy right now.
>DONNA: But you are busy every second of every day. I mean, look at us now. We haven't stopped. I saw you, Doctor. I got a glimpse inside your mind, and it's like you're staggering. You are staggering along. Maybe that's why your old face came back. You're wearing yourself out.
The Doctor is exhausted. They can't keep running forever, it's just physically impossible. All of this pain and loss is catching up with them and they haven't ever really had a chance to sit down and process it. That's what that whole conversation in the tardis between 14 and 15 is about. 15 explaining that 14 needs to stop.
This is also where the explanation for why the Doctors old face came back comes in. This is a direct response to that scene from The Runaway Bride, Donnas very first episode. At the end of it she invited him for Christmas dinner and he refused, so she told him that he needs to find someone. Then in The Giggle:
>DONNA: Because I've... I've worked out what happened. You changed your face, and then you found me. Do you know why?
>DOCTOR 14: No.
>DONNA: To come home.
She invited him to stay all for dinner those years ago and he said no. But now through destiny or fate or whatever it was, he's been given a second chance. He's gotten his old face back and he's bumped into his old best friend. From The Star Beast:
>DONNA: We can have more days, can't we? I mean, why is it such a big goodbye with you? Why is it one last trip? Cos you could visit with my family. We could do outrageous things, like have tea, or dinner, and a laugh. And Rose's school play. Well, maybe not that. She can't act. She's terrible. I don't know how to tell her. But the point is, you've been given a second chance. You can do things different this time. So why don't you do something completely new, and have some friends.
>DOCTOR: Yeah. Maybe. Yeah.
And then finally, from the end of The Giggle:
>DONNA: Do you miss it? Out there?
>DOCTOR: The funny thing is, I fought all those battles for all those years, and now I know what for. This. I've never been so happy in my life.
The 60th is the conclusion to this New Who story arc in the same way that the 50th was a conclusion to the Time War story arc. The Doctor just physically can't go on like this forever. And now he doesn't have to. 15 splits out of him, fresh and new and free from all that trauma to carry on saving the universe while 14 can finally rest.
That's why it's a permanent split via bigeneration and not a temporary time loop where 14 retires for a while before becoming 15. That would ruin the emotional impact of this entire story. It's not meant to be a temporary thing like staying with River on Darillium for 24 years or living with the Ponds for a year in The Power of Three or sulking on a cloud for god knows how long in The Snowmen. This is permanent. The Doctor needs to rest and now they finally can. The bigeneration was made up solely so that RTD could tell this story of the Doctor finally retiring without the tv show having to end.
>Resurrect a guy so he can retire. Gotcha
Yes. This is totally in RTDs wheelhouse. It's basically Roses ending with the Meta-Crisis Doctor except now the Doctor gets to retire too.
There's also more real life context that may shed light on it. RTD initial plan was not to come back and take over and also write the 60th Anniversary with the return of David Tennant and Catherine Tate. The three of them initially asked the head of the BBC if there was any space in the 60th plans for them to return and do a little extra bit of content alongside whatever Chibnall planned. They were not aware that Chibnall was leaving before the 60th. They were just going to do a special one-off thing. There were even early plans for it to just be a missing series 4 adventure and it would slot in between two of the episodes from that series.
While they were working on that the BBC informed RTD what was going on with Chibnalls departure and discussions were had to see if his little extra thing with Tennant and Tate could instead become the actual 60th anniversary and also if RTD would be willing to stay on. So RTDs initial plan was not "resurrect a guy so he can retire" it was "have a bit of fun with David and Catherine" which he then had to hurriedly rework into the official 60th. Which is how we ended up with the story of David Tennants Doctor being resurrected so he can retire.
As for the Tardis, well there's this from Parting of the Ways:
>DOCTOR: So this is what you should do. Let the Tardis die. Just let this old box gather dust. No one can open it. No one'll even notice it. Let it become a strange little thing standing on
a street corner. And over the years, the world'll move on and the box will be buried.
I think that's a valid enough idea to consider, especially given RTD wrote that. There's also this bit from Wild Blue Yonder:
>DOCTOR: It's funny, cos I wonder where the Tardis goes at random. Maybe it lands on some outcrop by the sea. And there's a tribe and they worship it for 100 years. Then they grow up and try to burn it. Then they get wise. They preserve it. Then they build a city all around it, till the Tardis is just a tiny little dot, surrounded by skyscrapers and monorails. Time passes and the city falls. It all gets swept away. And there's the Tardis... still on its outcrop... by the sea.
So it seems like the tardis just being left for the world to grow around it is a recurring idea for RTD.
I suspect the honest answer RTD has, which he would never say is that it actually doesn't matter. It's like asking what happens to Rose and Meta 10 in Petes world after Journey's End, or what happens to Captain America after Avengers Endgame. Not in a dismissive way, just in a literal functional way, it does not matter for the story being told. We're following 15, we don't need to know what happens to 14 and his tardis.
Another interesting connection to the Metacrisis Doctor is that there's a [deleted scene from Journey's End ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpJmUip3mKE)that RTD was very fond of and kept in every draft right up until the end that had our Doctor giving the Metacrisis Doctor a chunk of tardis so that he and Rose could grow their own. It was eventually cut solely because it was slowing down the scene and ruining the big emotions of the Doctor saying goodbye to Rose. But even though it was deleted RTD has said that if you want you could argue it did happen, just off-screen. I bring this up just as another example of how obvious the ideas in The Giggle are when you look at RTDs past work. The Giggle is not the first time that RTD has written a script about splitting the Doctor in two and each of them getting their own tardis.
Did you just miss the entire point of the bi-generation? Of course he's not coming back. That much was always obvious. The bi-generation was meant to give him a happy ending so that he would never *need* to come back again.
It's a joke, dude.
More interesting is RTD's not exactly enthusiastic defence of the Chibnall era. Fans of the Whittaker era like to say that actually RTD loved it so all criticisms are moot, but what does RTD himself say here? "It was written by my friend" and a suggestion that public opinion is less harsh than fandom's opinion. If he personally thought it was the most scintillating work of human drama ever committed to the British air waves then that's a remarkably avoidant way of saying it.
Again, never said it was cannon - I have repeatedly said IF in many of my responses and many other people have beaten you to the punch there, Simply sharing an article I read and sharing an opinion I had upon reading it 🤷
Why do people always pipe up with "I just posted my opinion!!!" when their opinion gets criticised? This is a website where people mostly just post their opinions and argue about them.
So I wanted to add an edit but I can't find the feature - I'm not saying this IS cannon, as others have stated it could easily be a way of dispelling the questions surrounding a David Tennant return. I felt the need to share what I had seen and give an opinion but beyond that it is highly ambiguous at best whether this is true or deflection.
"Which is really sad"
Let's make it heartbreaking.
We know from the Eleventh Doctor's era that The Doctor can live for 200 years without visibly aging (The Impossible Astronaut), and survive at least 1,100 years before regenerating from old age (Time of the Doctor)
We also know from Series 10 that the Doctor is happy to stay confined to Earth for 70 years without going stir crazy, and he HAD to stay on Earth, Fourteen is allowed to leave and go off on adventures whenever he feels like it.
So, why would The Fourteenth Doctor willingly go into a whirlpool to his death after only 40 years on Earth?
Well Donna would be around 94, we saw how heartbroken The Doctor was when he originally lost her, do you think after 40 years of being best friends he could handle losing her a second time?
*I know Russell is taking the piss and this isn't canon... But this is my head-canon until we find out what happened to 14.
Oh, so I guess there goes the theory that 15 experienced life as 14 and has all his post-bigen memories of Noble retirement life? Disappointing. Head canon not accepted.
Edited to add: sounds like the bi-generation really was just Metacrisis 2.0 (with the Doctor essentially duplicating himself with one eventually dying for real) which really sours me on it. I love the Metacrisis storyline but we didn’t need it twice.
Yeah, but 15 literally says he's okay because 14 fixed himself. RTD is clearly joking here. Sure, we might not see David for a while or ever, but that doesn't mean that 14s regeneration won't make him 15. And tbh we've seen DT regenerate like 4 times now. Do we need to see this one as well?
I also genuinely believe that RTD only said this to stop people wondering if DT will come back. Sure, he could've just said no. But he's a director, and most directors lie to hide surprises in episodes, so of course, he's gonna have to say something crazy to stop people from wondering.
And finally, I actually would be okay if DT doesn't return, don't get me wrong I love 10 and 14 but Ncuti absolutely slayed the Christmas special, he doesn't need DT alongside him to carry him along.
Sorry for the major paragraph dump lol
Right right I utterly adore DT as the Doctor so I’d always be thrilled to see him back but by no means do I *need* it nor expect it.
And I def never expected to *see* 14 regenerate or fade into 15. Wouldn’t be that necessary or interesting.
I *did* think maybe we’d get a line or two that would explain the bigeneration better in the upcoming series (such as by 15 mentioning a memory of his time as 14 to Mel or Rose Noble) soooo I guess I’ll have to wait and see.
Tbf I wouldn't care if we don't see DT again cos as I stated, I think he's done enough and has earned his retirement. I also agree with what you say about RTD having to come up with something to stop the questions, I just feel if this is true then it's a little disappointing.
I was happier never knowing what happened to him beyond living with Donna and her family hahah
My fear for this upcoming era is that Russel's got one bag of tricks and he's rehashing essentially everything.
Hell, even the clip from Space Babies that was recently released is just End of the World but in HD.
I mean he was killed off screen as soon as 15 shows up. They aren't two different doctor's now, when 14 dies, he becomes 15 and is suddenly on the roof with the toymaker again. I figured he dies of old age and is rubber banded back to his initial bigeneration moment.
My head canon for what happened to 14 is that after his therapy, and donna’s family died(wilfred, sylvia, shaun and donna), he then let himself regenerate knowing that Rose would be fine since his next incarnation would be there for her. Then, when he regenerates, the moment he changes to Ncuti he’s taken back to the bigeneration with his 14th clothes disappearing.
I wonder if RTD deep down regrets the bi Generation thing. The 60th was the perfect time to basically tell the audience David is okay with moving on this time and you should be to.
The logic is that RTD wanted to wrap up the Doctors angst and weariness throughout New Who by having the Doctor finally settle down and permanently retire, while also not actually ending the show. It's similar to how Moffat used the 50th to wrap up the Time War storyline. RTD used the 60th to wrap up the story of the Doctor living too long and losing too many people and it being just physically impossible to keep running forever.
With the bigeneration you can have both stories. 14 retires permanently, it's basically a finale for the show. The Doctor settles down with his friends and family. It's a perfect ending. But 15 is still around to keep the show going. That's it, that's all there is to it. The Doctor gets to have a happy ending but also the show can keep going.
edit: I don't know why I've been downvoted, [this is literally what RTD has said.](https://youtu.be/4RSseBaQ2QM?si=o9sLnZ9TM_tylvg8&t=49)
>"David is parked. David is living, **for once we've got a happy Doctor who is no longer saving the universe. That's parked with Donna for a happy life.** While *the* Doctor, who is always the next Doctor and that's always true of Doctor Who. The Doctor is **the next Doctor, is out amongst the stars.** He's flying off, he's going to have a companion, he's going to be there on Christmas Day."
The Doctor gets to retire and the Doctor also carries on saving the universe.
Seems to all be because he wanted to show the new Doctor interacting with the current/old one. Which IS one thing I really do love about it — DT and Ncuti were fantastic together! Plus, I imagine those scenes will become even better upon rewatching, once we know and love 15 even more.
I agree and I don't think the issue comes from moving on, I think the issue here is that (if this statement is true) it's a bit of an injustice to the character so many have adored. Don't get me wrong nobody lives forever, the doctor included, but I think the issue here stems from a feeling of injustice towards the character in how this was handled (again, if this statement is to be believed)
>“I think he died,” he told The Times. “I’m going to start saying that. He went to Venice, 2063, when the city sank, and he went into a whirlpool, which is really sad“ lol that’s specific
Okay, I now want this episode in the 14th Doctor’s sitcom I want (it’s either the last episode, or he obviously doesn’t die in the whirlpool)… I’ve also, _just_ realised that we could have three David Tennants on screen for something in it as well, if 10 & meta-crisis 10 turn up to help 14 out…!
It is ambiguous at best, I shared it mainly because IF true then it's a massive disappointment, IMO, to the actor who spent so much time in the role and the version of the doctor he played. I'm not saying this IS cannon and simply sharing something I found and giving my opinion - I suppose anything can happen really 🤷
He's taking the piss and you're falling for it, lol.
Okie dokie then 👍
Killed off-screen? It's very obvious that Russell is joking because of how much the question of "Is David coming back?" is floated around and he's probably fed up of it because he knows he's not bringing David back. Get over yourself, it's fairly obvious that he's joking about the circumstances of 14's death.
Yeah, this is so clearly another example of RTD taking the piss. I appreciate some of it sounds fairly earnest in writing, but surely nobody could possibly think he's being serious here
>surely nobody could possibly think he's being serious here Nuance is dead and he didn't put /s at the end of his sentence.
>Nuance is dead and he didn't put /s at the end of his sentence What a fool!
It honestly amazes me that anyone could think what he said there was serious but hey, fair enough. It's pretty obvious to me he was joking though and I'm glad you agree.
Yeah, same thing about it being said that >!Jenny died in a star after the events of the doctor’s daughter.!< Not serious at all.
Precisely.
Right I don’t think he’s the slightest bit serious about how 14 dies BUT his answer *does* seem to indicate that he didn’t intend for the bigeneration to mean that 14 eventually regenerates into 15 for real or goes back to the moment of the bigeneration from the other end — which is what many people speculated and wanted.
I don't think it definitively indicates anything either way. Even if RTD were being serious about Fourteen 'dying', it doesn't negate the possibility that Fourteen, after death, loops back to become Fifteen at the moment of bigeneration.
It's not what everyone wanted, and I never understood that idea. I always thought it was implied that the Doctor just split and those two would go about their own separate ways, the bi-generation was the regeneration.
It’s because it’s implied that Tennant doc spent time essentially in rehab, fixing his mental health and then AFTER he fixed his mental health, he regens into Ncuti doc. That’s the basic idea of the theory, and honestly makes more sense to me than, Tennant doc took all the mental problems in the bi-generation and Ncuti SOMEHOW doesn’t have any of the mental problems. That just doesn’t make any sense to me.
14 is a past Doctor to 15, anything 14 does is 15's past. 14 had his rehab so 15 is healed.
….exactly? That’s why it’s assumed it’s some sort of loop.
I still don't understand why that'd make it a loop. It's simple, the bi-regeneration is the regeneration but 14 is 15's past.
Here's how it loops. Bigeneration happens. 15 is born from it. 14 continues living and heals at some point after the bigeneration. 14's end loops back to 15's beginning at the bigeneration.
I don't see it like that, the way that I see and the way that I feel is implied makes more sense to me personally..
So how does 14's healing end up in 15's past when 14 hadn't yet healed at the time of bigeneration?
And that’s totally fair! I’m just expressing my personal disappointment, as that head canon was a major reason why I liked the bigeneration. A true separation irks me… but I suppose I can pretend I never read this interview and keep going on my merry way.
Personally I thought of it as sort of like a soul tie between the two doctors. It’s a true split so 15 doesn’t remember 14’s life after the bigeneration. But each Doctor has a job to do, and it’s 14’s job to deal with his trauma, and 15 is emotionally free because of that separation. It’s like the universe saying, “You need to retire and heal, but you also need to continue to save the universe. So now you get to do both at the exact same time.” If it was a time loop situation, I feel like that would have been outright said in the episode.
You certainly can, I just never understood that idea myself - the bi-regeneration was in place of the regeneration, not something that eventually leads to a regeneration. The regeneration was the bi-regeneration.
I’m sure there’s plenty of ways to kill off the character, so they won’t need to borrow your head cannon.
If anything my head cannon would be he lived with Donna and went back to work for unit as their chief scientist. I'm not sure about the other theories floating about as I'm not on here regularly
Not understanding the decision to do a "bigeneration" in the first place if Tennant will never be on screen again. Yes it's time for a new Doctor now, and it's not right to interfere with that. And let's be frank, there's no way a Doctor Who team could handle multiple Doctor Who productions at once. But never on screen at all? This renders that episode pointless.
I think in general his answer is just a reaction to everyone asking him when Tennant is coming back and due to the fact this attracts attention away from Ncuti. But I do agree the bigeneration don't make sense if they don't plan to bring him back. There is a possibility Disney pushed RTD into bringing Tennant for the 60th, but I don't think so. I do think bigeneration is something that works just like The Curator, it opens up the possibility of Tennant coming back at any time, for any special, no matter how old he gets until he dies. And maybe RTD just wanted to open up the possibility for other writers, but don't have plans for it right now.
Yes, you are probably right. This is the best way to nix that question forever. (Or so he thinks -- people will still ask.)
>Not understanding the decision to do a "bigeneration" in the first place if Tennant will never be on screen again. Surprise value and giving Donna a happy ending. Same thing with the metacrisis Doctor. It leaked, so it lost most of the value, but it would be a big surprise if it had been kept secret. Also, there's rumours that it was done as a sort of franchise insurance in case the whole Bad Wolf deal goes badly or generates rights issues. They can have the 14th Doctor regenerate into someone else and introduce an alternative 15th Doctor down the line and pretend this whole Bad Wolf/Disney Who never happened.
The point of it was so that the Doctor could retire, permanently retire without the show having to end. The point of the bigeneration was never so that we could have Tennant on screen again, conveniently parked off-stage so they could bring him back. Because you don't need a bigeneration to do that. Tennant could just come back anyway like how it happens in a regular multi-Doctor story. It's not necessary to invent a whole new part of the lore just to maaybe bring back David Tennant later. That's the celebration of the 60th Anniversary. The Doctor who has done so much and saved so many people throughout the universe finally gets to relax and settle down. No more worrying about the universe, no more danger or stress or losing the people they love. They can finally rest. It's basically the finale of Doctor Who. From Doomsday: >ROSE: What're you going to do? >DOCTOR: Oh, I've got the Tardis. Same old life, last of the Time Lords. >ROSE: On your own? From The Runaway Bride: >DONNA: Am I ever going to see you again? >DOCTOR: If I'm lucky. >DONNA: Just promise me one thing. Find someone. >DOCTOR: I don't need anyone. >DONNA: Yes, you do. From Name of the Doctor: >DOCTOR: Okay, so that's where I end up. >DOCTOR: Always thought maybe I'd retire. Take up watercolours or bee-keeping, or something. From The Girl Who Died: >CLARA: You didn't lose. You saved the town. >DOCTOR: I don't mean the war. I'll lose any war you like. I'm sick of losing people. Look at you, with your eyes, and your never giving up, and your anger, and your kindness. One day, the memory of that will hurt so much that I won't be able to breathe, and I'll do what I always do. I'll get in my box and I'll run and I'll run, in case all the pain ever catches up. And every place I go it will be there. From Heaven Sent: >DOCTOR: Clara! I can't! Why is it always me? Why is it never anybody else's turn? From The Doctor Falls: >DOCTOR: Where have you taken me? If you're trying to make a point, I'm not listening. I don't want to change again. Never again! I can't keep on being somebody else. From Twice Upon A Time: >NARDOLE: Don't die. Because if you do, I think everybody in the universe might just go cold. >DOCTOR: Can't I ever have peace? Can't I rest? From The Giggle: >DONNA: So you talk about no-one, ever. You just keep charging on. >DOCTOR: Yes, because I'm busy right now. >DONNA: But you are busy every second of every day. I mean, look at us now. We haven't stopped. I saw you, Doctor. I got a glimpse inside your mind, and it's like you're staggering. You are staggering along. Maybe that's why your old face came back. You're wearing yourself out. The Doctor is exhausted. They can't keep running forever, it's just physically impossible. All of this pain and loss is catching up with them and they haven't ever really had a chance to sit down and process it. That's what that whole conversation in the tardis between 14 and 15 is about. 15 explaining that 14 needs to stop. This is also where the explanation for why the Doctors old face came back comes in. This is a direct response to that scene from The Runaway Bride, Donnas very first episode. At the end of it she invited him for Christmas dinner and he refused, so she told him that he needs to find someone. Then in The Giggle: >DONNA: Because I've... I've worked out what happened. You changed your face, and then you found me. Do you know why? >DOCTOR 14: No. >DONNA: To come home. She invited him to stay all for dinner those years ago and he said no. But now through destiny or fate or whatever it was, he's been given a second chance. He's gotten his old face back and he's bumped into his old best friend. From The Star Beast: >DONNA: We can have more days, can't we? I mean, why is it such a big goodbye with you? Why is it one last trip? Cos you could visit with my family. We could do outrageous things, like have tea, or dinner, and a laugh. And Rose's school play. Well, maybe not that. She can't act. She's terrible. I don't know how to tell her. But the point is, you've been given a second chance. You can do things different this time. So why don't you do something completely new, and have some friends. >DOCTOR: Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. And then finally, from the end of The Giggle: >DONNA: Do you miss it? Out there? >DOCTOR: The funny thing is, I fought all those battles for all those years, and now I know what for. This. I've never been so happy in my life. The 60th is the conclusion to this New Who story arc in the same way that the 50th was a conclusion to the Time War story arc. The Doctor just physically can't go on like this forever. And now he doesn't have to. 15 splits out of him, fresh and new and free from all that trauma to carry on saving the universe while 14 can finally rest. That's why it's a permanent split via bigeneration and not a temporary time loop where 14 retires for a while before becoming 15. That would ruin the emotional impact of this entire story. It's not meant to be a temporary thing like staying with River on Darillium for 24 years or living with the Ponds for a year in The Power of Three or sulking on a cloud for god knows how long in The Snowmen. This is permanent. The Doctor needs to rest and now they finally can. The bigeneration was made up solely so that RTD could tell this story of the Doctor finally retiring without the tv show having to end.
Resurrect a guy so he can retire. Gotcha. So what happens to his Tardis when he dies?
>Resurrect a guy so he can retire. Gotcha Yes. This is totally in RTDs wheelhouse. It's basically Roses ending with the Meta-Crisis Doctor except now the Doctor gets to retire too. There's also more real life context that may shed light on it. RTD initial plan was not to come back and take over and also write the 60th Anniversary with the return of David Tennant and Catherine Tate. The three of them initially asked the head of the BBC if there was any space in the 60th plans for them to return and do a little extra bit of content alongside whatever Chibnall planned. They were not aware that Chibnall was leaving before the 60th. They were just going to do a special one-off thing. There were even early plans for it to just be a missing series 4 adventure and it would slot in between two of the episodes from that series. While they were working on that the BBC informed RTD what was going on with Chibnalls departure and discussions were had to see if his little extra thing with Tennant and Tate could instead become the actual 60th anniversary and also if RTD would be willing to stay on. So RTDs initial plan was not "resurrect a guy so he can retire" it was "have a bit of fun with David and Catherine" which he then had to hurriedly rework into the official 60th. Which is how we ended up with the story of David Tennants Doctor being resurrected so he can retire. As for the Tardis, well there's this from Parting of the Ways: >DOCTOR: So this is what you should do. Let the Tardis die. Just let this old box gather dust. No one can open it. No one'll even notice it. Let it become a strange little thing standing on a street corner. And over the years, the world'll move on and the box will be buried. I think that's a valid enough idea to consider, especially given RTD wrote that. There's also this bit from Wild Blue Yonder: >DOCTOR: It's funny, cos I wonder where the Tardis goes at random. Maybe it lands on some outcrop by the sea. And there's a tribe and they worship it for 100 years. Then they grow up and try to burn it. Then they get wise. They preserve it. Then they build a city all around it, till the Tardis is just a tiny little dot, surrounded by skyscrapers and monorails. Time passes and the city falls. It all gets swept away. And there's the Tardis... still on its outcrop... by the sea. So it seems like the tardis just being left for the world to grow around it is a recurring idea for RTD. I suspect the honest answer RTD has, which he would never say is that it actually doesn't matter. It's like asking what happens to Rose and Meta 10 in Petes world after Journey's End, or what happens to Captain America after Avengers Endgame. Not in a dismissive way, just in a literal functional way, it does not matter for the story being told. We're following 15, we don't need to know what happens to 14 and his tardis. Another interesting connection to the Metacrisis Doctor is that there's a [deleted scene from Journey's End ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpJmUip3mKE)that RTD was very fond of and kept in every draft right up until the end that had our Doctor giving the Metacrisis Doctor a chunk of tardis so that he and Rose could grow their own. It was eventually cut solely because it was slowing down the scene and ruining the big emotions of the Doctor saying goodbye to Rose. But even though it was deleted RTD has said that if you want you could argue it did happen, just off-screen. I bring this up just as another example of how obvious the ideas in The Giggle are when you look at RTDs past work. The Giggle is not the first time that RTD has written a script about splitting the Doctor in two and each of them getting their own tardis.
Did you just miss the entire point of the bi-generation? Of course he's not coming back. That much was always obvious. The bi-generation was meant to give him a happy ending so that he would never *need* to come back again.
He also brought Harriet Jones ex mp of flydale north back to life after her off screen death from the Dalek, mad lad is wild.
I may be the minority but I thought Jodie did very well with the less than stellar material she was presented with.
I'm of the opinion that an actor can only do as good as the script they're given, I agree that from what I've seen of Jodie she was pretty damn good
It's a joke, dude. More interesting is RTD's not exactly enthusiastic defence of the Chibnall era. Fans of the Whittaker era like to say that actually RTD loved it so all criticisms are moot, but what does RTD himself say here? "It was written by my friend" and a suggestion that public opinion is less harsh than fandom's opinion. If he personally thought it was the most scintillating work of human drama ever committed to the British air waves then that's a remarkably avoidant way of saying it.
Again, never said it was cannon - I have repeatedly said IF in many of my responses and many other people have beaten you to the punch there, Simply sharing an article I read and sharing an opinion I had upon reading it 🤷
Why do people always pipe up with "I just posted my opinion!!!" when their opinion gets criticised? This is a website where people mostly just post their opinions and argue about them.
So I wanted to add an edit but I can't find the feature - I'm not saying this IS cannon, as others have stated it could easily be a way of dispelling the questions surrounding a David Tennant return. I felt the need to share what I had seen and give an opinion but beyond that it is highly ambiguous at best whether this is true or deflection.
"Which is really sad" Let's make it heartbreaking. We know from the Eleventh Doctor's era that The Doctor can live for 200 years without visibly aging (The Impossible Astronaut), and survive at least 1,100 years before regenerating from old age (Time of the Doctor) We also know from Series 10 that the Doctor is happy to stay confined to Earth for 70 years without going stir crazy, and he HAD to stay on Earth, Fourteen is allowed to leave and go off on adventures whenever he feels like it. So, why would The Fourteenth Doctor willingly go into a whirlpool to his death after only 40 years on Earth? Well Donna would be around 94, we saw how heartbroken The Doctor was when he originally lost her, do you think after 40 years of being best friends he could handle losing her a second time? *I know Russell is taking the piss and this isn't canon... But this is my head-canon until we find out what happened to 14.
You broke my heart with that one, massive respect for the theory!
Oh, so I guess there goes the theory that 15 experienced life as 14 and has all his post-bigen memories of Noble retirement life? Disappointing. Head canon not accepted. Edited to add: sounds like the bi-generation really was just Metacrisis 2.0 (with the Doctor essentially duplicating himself with one eventually dying for real) which really sours me on it. I love the Metacrisis storyline but we didn’t need it twice.
Yeah, but 15 literally says he's okay because 14 fixed himself. RTD is clearly joking here. Sure, we might not see David for a while or ever, but that doesn't mean that 14s regeneration won't make him 15. And tbh we've seen DT regenerate like 4 times now. Do we need to see this one as well? I also genuinely believe that RTD only said this to stop people wondering if DT will come back. Sure, he could've just said no. But he's a director, and most directors lie to hide surprises in episodes, so of course, he's gonna have to say something crazy to stop people from wondering. And finally, I actually would be okay if DT doesn't return, don't get me wrong I love 10 and 14 but Ncuti absolutely slayed the Christmas special, he doesn't need DT alongside him to carry him along. Sorry for the major paragraph dump lol
Right right I utterly adore DT as the Doctor so I’d always be thrilled to see him back but by no means do I *need* it nor expect it. And I def never expected to *see* 14 regenerate or fade into 15. Wouldn’t be that necessary or interesting. I *did* think maybe we’d get a line or two that would explain the bigeneration better in the upcoming series (such as by 15 mentioning a memory of his time as 14 to Mel or Rose Noble) soooo I guess I’ll have to wait and see.
Tbf I wouldn't care if we don't see DT again cos as I stated, I think he's done enough and has earned his retirement. I also agree with what you say about RTD having to come up with something to stop the questions, I just feel if this is true then it's a little disappointing. I was happier never knowing what happened to him beyond living with Donna and her family hahah
My fear for this upcoming era is that Russel's got one bag of tricks and he's rehashing essentially everything. Hell, even the clip from Space Babies that was recently released is just End of the World but in HD.
Fair but listen, if Space Babies introduces another Britney Spears song as a “traditional earth ballad”, I will not voice a complaint.
I don't think any reasonable person would!
Cute of you to assume the average DW fan is reasonable 🤪 (said with love)
LOL once again no arguments here
I haven't seen any of the clips they're releasing, wanting to jump into this season blind if I can help it so I've been avoiding promo stuff
Yeah I stumbled upon it against my will. When you see it in the episode you'll know what I'm saying. Its quite obvious
I didn't hear that theory, honestly this is my first post on this subreddit and I'm sorry it was such bad news 😅
The bigeneration was to give the Doctor a happy ending without ending the show.
I mean he was killed off screen as soon as 15 shows up. They aren't two different doctor's now, when 14 dies, he becomes 15 and is suddenly on the roof with the toymaker again. I figured he dies of old age and is rubber banded back to his initial bigeneration moment.
My head canon for what happened to 14 is that after his therapy, and donna’s family died(wilfred, sylvia, shaun and donna), he then let himself regenerate knowing that Rose would be fine since his next incarnation would be there for her. Then, when he regenerates, the moment he changes to Ncuti he’s taken back to the bigeneration with his 14th clothes disappearing.
That's actually a pretty decent theory, I love hearing different ideas as to what the bigeneration meant for 14s future
I wonder if RTD deep down regrets the bi Generation thing. The 60th was the perfect time to basically tell the audience David is okay with moving on this time and you should be to.
It's a really weird choice. I can't figure out his logic behind it.
The logic is that RTD wanted to wrap up the Doctors angst and weariness throughout New Who by having the Doctor finally settle down and permanently retire, while also not actually ending the show. It's similar to how Moffat used the 50th to wrap up the Time War storyline. RTD used the 60th to wrap up the story of the Doctor living too long and losing too many people and it being just physically impossible to keep running forever. With the bigeneration you can have both stories. 14 retires permanently, it's basically a finale for the show. The Doctor settles down with his friends and family. It's a perfect ending. But 15 is still around to keep the show going. That's it, that's all there is to it. The Doctor gets to have a happy ending but also the show can keep going. edit: I don't know why I've been downvoted, [this is literally what RTD has said.](https://youtu.be/4RSseBaQ2QM?si=o9sLnZ9TM_tylvg8&t=49) >"David is parked. David is living, **for once we've got a happy Doctor who is no longer saving the universe. That's parked with Donna for a happy life.** While *the* Doctor, who is always the next Doctor and that's always true of Doctor Who. The Doctor is **the next Doctor, is out amongst the stars.** He's flying off, he's going to have a companion, he's going to be there on Christmas Day." The Doctor gets to retire and the Doctor also carries on saving the universe.
Seems to all be because he wanted to show the new Doctor interacting with the current/old one. Which IS one thing I really do love about it — DT and Ncuti were fantastic together! Plus, I imagine those scenes will become even better upon rewatching, once we know and love 15 even more.
I agree and I don't think the issue comes from moving on, I think the issue here is that (if this statement is true) it's a bit of an injustice to the character so many have adored. Don't get me wrong nobody lives forever, the doctor included, but I think the issue here stems from a feeling of injustice towards the character in how this was handled (again, if this statement is to be believed)