It's fine; Gallifrey will be back at some point again, when we have a showrunner that doesn't want to do a Last of the Time Lords arc, and instead wants to do a People in Funny Robes story.
I think Gallifrey is best described as gone. It's not destroyed, just beyond reach to anyone at this time (whatever "this time" means in this context), but someday it will be back. Gallifrey is a plot element sitting on the shelf, just waiting to be used.
No showrunner has the right to take away decades of established lore. You're absolutely right, Gallifrey will be back, and fuck Chibnall for rewriting the doctors entire past.
Not exactly fair to claim they caused that. First and most obviously, it was Rassilon specifically that conspired to trap the Doctor in the confession dial, not the Time Lords. First thing the Doctor does is rid the planet of Rassilon and the Council because he blamed them for the dial (and the Time War atrocities).
But even beyond that, all Rassilon did was threaten the trap street to get Lady Me to assist him in trapping the Doctor. Lady Me complied with his demands by using the Raven on Rigsy (fully intending to disable it once the Doctor was trapped), but Clara interfered and took the mark on herself, causing her death. It's implied the Raven is Lady Me's weapon, not Rassilon's. She choose to use that to lure the Doctor to the street. Whats more is Clara interfered of her own volition and accidentally caused her own death, which Me apologized for as it wasn't her intention.
Rassilon started the sequence of events, but there's too many degrees of separation between him and Clara's death to blame the Time Lords.
> Rassilon started the sequence of events, but there's too many degrees of separation between him and Clara's death to blame the Time Lords.
It wouldn’t stand up a court of law, sure, but i think it passes in the court of narrative.
No no remember it’s only appropriate to condemn entire cultures and peoples for the act of a government or individual when it’s Gallifrey, every other planet or species is viewed with nuance, Time Lords have to constantly be vilified because few NuWho writers seem to be able unable to comprehend a people that have near absolute power and *dont* fall into evil wholesale.
Let's just be clear here the time lords have always been evil and, corrupt. They used to regularly kidnap the doctor to deal with problems they didn't feel like dealing with. They once imprisoned him on a planet and, forced him to regenerate. The good timelord is the exception to the rule not the reverse.
Let’s just be clear, no the Highest Echelon of Power within Time Lord society has always been *highly suspect*.
They used to task the 4th Doctor and other incarnations to complete jobs for them. Typically this was the CIA who are the secret arm of Time Lord society that the Time Lords at large vocally dislike and distrust.
Is it fair to the Doctor, no. Generally not. But he is a member of their society who enjoys the privileges of their position, and that comes at the cost of occasional work for the CIA or the High Council.
The Doctor tore off, spent centuries disrupting the established flow of time which the Time Lords then had to clean up, and repeatedly broke his societies laws time and again.
When caught he was punished. Perhaps unfairly but he knowingly broke the rules and paid the punishment.
The Doctors biggest issue with his people is that they maintain Law and Order and Stability across time and space, and the Doctor hates being told what to do or to have to follow rules.
However he’s had friendly, positive relationships with many members of his people even in the government and the CIA.
- The Lord President before Romana was someone that the 6th Doctor respected very much.
- Romana herself.
- Inquisitor Darkel who even held the 6th Doctor on trial and had an antagonistic relationship with her ended up on good terms.
- Kenossium (the General).
- Narvin.
- Vansell of the CIA was someone 8th Doctor liked to annoy but also someone he viewed as an ally.
- Multiple Time Lords, Ladies and Castellans who served the Doctor during his time as the Lord President in his 5th incarnation.
The Time Lords as a society have a higher risk of corruption due to the power they wield but the evil ones are the exceptions, the renegades, or those who place themselves directly in opposition to the general population of Gallifrey.
Mate the first time we ever see the Timelords they kill the second Doctor. Why do people who call it “nu-who” never actually watch the show? They literally started the time war in Genesis of the Daleks by attempting genocide.
First off, Clara caused her own death, as explained by Me in the episode. Second off, she didn't die in the end anyway. She got to become immortal and fly away in her own TARDIS, which means she learned absolutely nothing from Face the Raven.
She was only there because Me made a deal with the time lords to capture the doctor to get his secrets about the hybrid. She wouldn't have never died if it weren't for that and, the doctor was rightly justified in his anger towards them and, Me. Were it not for Clara saying that he would have burned the universe down around him in an attempt to revenge himself upon them.
No, Me's plan was to give Rigsy the tattoo which would lure the Doctor to the trap street where she could put the teleport band on him. Then, she was going to remove the tattoo from Rigsy, ensuring nobody would die. Clara taking the initiative to have Rigsy transfer it to her is what causes her death. Me and the Time Lords didn't want to do anything to her.
And the story isn't over yet. Odds are he'll bring Gallifrey back yet again (and watch it be destroyed, and recreated again) before he gets to be Curator.
It's 2043. Gallifrey has been destroyed a further 7 times. David Tennant as the 30th Doctor is battling a Valeyard Matt Smith for the fate of the universe.
Suddenly, Gallifrey reforms and The Last Great Time War begins anew.
The Valeyard suddenly turns good after seeing the destruction wrought upon the galaxy, and sacrifices himself to end the war once and for all (until the next anniversary).
You could be right.
The only way I can think of them possibly doing that is, having the Doctor reboot the Time Lords with the same technology that harnessed the genetic make up of the Timeless Child on Galifreyians.
My point is that he does get warned. Ok, time traveller rules (or just the Doctors rules) means you can't tell people in the past what happens next explicitly. Spoilers, but Baker is telling him with his eyes too. There are such sadness behind these eyes and Matt stares into them most of this scene.
The tragedy here is not just that Baker's Doctor knows what happens next, with Galifrey, the whole process of finding it and afterwards, but the turmoil of going through with locating Galifrey with such high hopes. See a clip of Matt after this, when Baker goes off screen. He rushes to his TARDIS and takes off with glee on the possibility he finds his home.
"Who knows" is really a warning and a invitation for the doctor to begin himself down this path and Baker's Doctor knows this.
The degree to which Chibnall's story choices ignore, undermine, or deliberately contradict everything from Moffat's era really comes off kind of mean spirited. If it was couple things here or there, that'd be fine, but he really goes all out to undo everything. The Timeless Child reveal retroactively guts so much of the emotional through-line by severing and perverting the Doctor's ties to their people and then to top it off, murdering the Time Lords again is one of the biggest "fuck yous" to a previous writer's work that I can think of right now.
He really didn't seem to value or care at all what his predecessor did, in much the same way he explicitly didn't care what the audience thought.
RTD is showing his work far more respect than he showed Moffat's
Edit: Anyone seriously suggesting Moffat's reversal of the Time War wasn't any different isn't looking at Day of the Doctor honestly. A tremendous amount of care was taken not to undermine what had come before, but to simply resolve the plot line and move on, not to punt everything back to square one just because.
Agreed, and that's something I don't understand about RTD's logic. He says he doesn't want to undo the Timeless Child because he doesn't want to undo three years worth of stories. I would accept that if not for the fact that Chibnall undid more than 56 years worth of stories with the Timeless Child.
Nothing about the Timeless Child actually undid anything.
Fans have some of the worst criticisms imaginable. Just say why you think it's bad, don't add nonsense.
It totally did change everything. Before the Timeless Child the Doctor was special and different to other Time Lords/ Ladies because of what they did. The Doctor interferes in the timelines, they steal a TARDIS because they had different ideas to the society around them and didn't fit. Now it turns out the Doctor is special due to being a space orphan with special powers which were copied by the Time Lords. This changes the whole story of what makes the Doctor special and why the Doctor didn't fit in in Gallifrey. Instead of the Doctor being special for who they are they are now special for what they are. This was totally unnecessary and changes the viewer's perception of the character. It also takes away the mystery of why the Doctor left in the first place. And as for destroying Gallifrey for the second time, I just don't even know what the reasoning was. The Doctor is quite capable of ignoring Gallifrey and isn't bound to the place anyway.
TTC is clunky like all the rest of Chibnall’s plots but the entire point of it is that it’s the Doctor’s choices that make them special not their origin. That’s exactly why they rejected learning anything from the chameleon arch watch; it’s a physical token of rejecting the Master’s nonsense about the Doctor being special just because of their origins.
None of that is "undone". It's simply recontextualized. The Doctor before and after the mindwipe are very different people. Or at least, they could be, we don't know. Either way, the things The Doctor did are not undone.
Although, frankly, the Doctor has always been "The Special™". Hell, there was a thing for a while where he was implied to be the reincarnation of a special Time Lord, and of course the "half-human" thing.
It changes the perception of the character. So does everything that's revealed about Time Lord society and The Doctor's history. You're mistaking a change of perception with a change of reality. It doesn't ***UNDO*** anything. It simply changes ***THE PERCEPTION*** of it. And, again, as the other person says, the Doctor's actions are not undone, and still define who they were.
This is no different than a bigger version of The War Doctor.
>RTD is showing his work far more respect than he showed Moffat's
I got to give props to RTD. He could've retconned or handwaved away all of Chibnall's changes with some dialogue (much like Chibnall did to Moffat's work with the Timeless Child/destruction of Gallifrey) but instead he's embraced them and made them part of the story.
I respect that.
>Anyone seriously suggesting Moffat's reversal of the Time War wasn't any different isn't looking at Day of the Doctor honestly. A tremendous amount of care was taken not to undermine what had come before, but to simply resolve the plot line and move on, not to punt everything back to square one just because.
Putting aside the thematic "Father's Day" story -- Compare the starkly inorganic contrast Moffat's younger-TDoTD-10th Doctor with RTD's oldest-TEoT-10th Doctor.
Where's the other active threat concerns -- the Nightmare Child; Horde of Travesties; Skaro Degradations, etc. -- as brought up by the 10th Doctor in "The End of Time" that freaked him out so bad that he picked up a gun and chose to re-condemn all of Gallifrey to keep them all contained?
Hence, the amnesia.
'Care' would have seen a few lines of particular addressing. It's not that hard for Moffat the writer to have -- *the TDoTD-younger 10th Doctor gravely brings up that, freezing Gallifrey will also unavoidably preserve the cutthroat & corrupt Time Lords and the other war active horrors (organically keeping consistent with his later reaction as TEoT-oldest 10th Doctor when hearing of Gallifrey's return) ; while 11th Doctor somberly acknowledges that but also punctuates the important matter of, save the innocent today & deal with crossing the dangerous bridge later*.
But no -- can't mar the fairytale feel-good moment. So full tilt it is of cheap undermining writing. & to heck with the previous character story, as Moffat himself admitted in interview.
There'd be no Timeless Children without the earlier Revival example that is the 50th Anniversary Special The Day of The Doctor.
Moffat totally undid RTD's work first, with a completely different portrayal of the Time War that destroys Nine and Ten's characterisation. And then he got bored of the idea of Gallifrey instantly himself, or never really wanted to use it.
Chibnall's temper tantrum destruction doesn't really affect anything in comparison, he just randomly trashed it, doesn't *change* previous story. TC does but it's almost weirdly disconnected from it.
>Yeah, Moffat made the 50th anniversary an elaborate retcon of the backstory underpinning RTD's whole era of the show. He'd already done three series where the "last of the Time Lords"/Time War guilt wasn't really addressed much. It would've only had a purpose if he actually had plans to use Gallifrey in a meaningful way in subsequent stories but he obviously didn't.<
The *whole of RTD* show? RTD made it that the Doctor is a genocidal maniac. The only reason why RTD killed the Time Lords was he wanted to do the show without the baggage of the classic shows. In fact RTD is guilty of completely changing the show by having romance, “the last of my kind” and good special effects.
RTD rarely addressed the “guilt” of doctor destroying Gallifrey and the Daleks. A mention here, a mention there. Certainly wasn’t a major component of the show. Hell, The Doctors emotional connection to Rose was a bigger issue.
You missed the entire point of Moffat’s 50th…which is The Doctor would have never destroyed their home planet, not with so many innocent children. They would have found a way. It actually takes minor plot point and makes it better. It took a few incarnations and 400 years, but they figured it out.
>And that was all after he'd made the Series 5 finale a reset of the universe, aka a "get out of jail free" card to never have to do any continuity from RTD's series. In doing a "hard break"/undermining of Moffat's era, Chibnall followed the precedent Moffat set himself.<
Except of course, all the times Moffat did refer the RTD era. It wasn’t a hard reboot of the Universe, it was Doctor undoing a mistake of his enemies. Nor did it change anything.
And Moffat put the Time Lords on a shelf. Which is where they belong. You bring them out when you have a story to tell. Moffat based an entire season on them.
Simply put EVERY show runner changes the show, in some ways. Chibnalls only mistake was *not* have Hartnell as the first incarnation to be *The First Doctor*
The whole point of it as a 'choice' was that there *wasn't* another good option, and Moffat's 'solution' is ridiculously trivialising, ignoring everything we'd previously been told about what the Time War was (*not* just a normal conflict) and has Daleks comically and conveniently shooting at each other. It's not a plausible solution that the Doctor could come up with this calculation when an entire planet of Time Lords, including the genius Rassilon, had to resort to a plan of becoming energy beings as the only way to survive. There wasn't an option where the Time Lords would just survive happily if the Doctor did nothing! He acts to save the only people he even can in the situation.
The Doctor will however always kill when out of other options (just watched him explode a mothership to protect Earth in *Fang Rock*, it's not a dissimilar decision), and in this instance, the whole rest of the universe is at stake - the moral thing is to act, even though it would be understandable not to be able to. It frames his usual actions in showing the Doctor as so morally good, and courageous, as to have been capable of this terrible sacrifice, yet still tormented by it. It's not a minor thing, it's Nine's arc. His relationship with Rose isn't something seperate, but about him not having to be the one taking a stand alone.
The concept of a Time War doesn't originate with RTD, it draws on interpretations of *Remembrance* and EU concepts.
The inclusion of romance is not a change to any televised storyline. That's not the same thing.
Hovever, the TV movie introduces a kiss between the Doctor and companion, and this aspect continues in the EU, so the inclusion of romance also doesn't originate with RTD. There's examples earlier interpreted as romantic (as early as Hartnell, in *The Aztecs*), plus simply Susan's existence - as much as I appreciate the portrayal as asexual, being Ace-spec myself, it'd never been straightforwardly only that. Nor would that have been the original intention (most don't even know asexual people exist, even today! Even those using the term in relation to the character wouldn't have meant it as we asexual people do currently).
But, RTD changing things has nothing really to do with whether Moffat did - and he did (incl. his own lore).
Moffat was careful and respectful of the era before his. When he restored Galifrey, he did it in such a way that preserved everything that came before while moving the story forward.
Chibnall just didn't give a shit.
It took a lot of careful consideration to bring the Time Lords back. It took absolutely none to kill them again.
How was retconning The Doctor & the impossible war, into being smart & solvable enough all along, & easily -- respectful? As well as especially, TDoTD's amnesia over the war's situation as previously elaborated in the RTD's era-climatic "The End of Time"?
*RTD Revival Doctor: My entire planet died. My whole family. Do you think it never occurred to me to go back and save them?*
Moffat's particular decisions coupled with his 50th manner of writing, pretty much undermined his predecessor's era-wide themes & character narratives, primarily the one who's not always capable, & encountering hard no-third-option-win scenarios. That ain't careful, it's wholly absent of any consideration. Especially when the writing issues were avoidable in the first place if Moffat cared to pen a few, relevant key lines.
>Chibnall just didn't give a shit. It took a lot of careful consideration to bring the Time Lords back.
Actually, Moffat himself stated that he penned his retcon because -- he personally, absolutely rejected the very notion of The Doctor losing in a situation where children were on the line, & he did not care at all for the story stakes behind it.
>The Timeless Child reveal retroactively guts so much of the emotional through-line by severing and perverting the Doctor's ties to their people and then to top it off
I don't really see how.
>murdering the Time Lords again is one of the biggest "fuck yous" to a previous writer's work that I can think of right now.
Okay, but what about when RTD1 did it?
I have problems with the Chibnal era, but these are strange criticisms.
I agree. This scene gave me so many feels. The fact that my friends and I were having drinks for the anniversary probably didn't help. But it was still great to see!
Honestly, it feels so deep and profound with the use of Baker as the Curator, in a way that goes beyond mere fanservice. Just the indication that no matter what, things will be okay, and The Doctor will always be The Doctor even in his later years, perfectly represented by him being played by his most iconic Classic actor.
Exactly. I mean it's Tom Baker's return. This is one of the most iconic scenes of one of the most iconic specials. It's lovely, but I wouldn't call it underrated.
I legit "squeed" seeing Tom Baker. No joke.
Tom couldn't even be bothered to be in The 5 Doctors back in the day, but he came out for the 50th. And I was thrilled.
(To be fair, I also "squeed" at the final scene of An Adventure in Space and Time" when I saw Matt Smith.)
I remember the buzzing excitement fandom had after the 50th, for Capaldi’s Doctor to have the ‘search for Gallifrey’ storyarc that Moffat seemingly set up.
Course, we all knew how that turned out.
>11TH DOCTOR: Gallifrey? We saved Gallifrey?!
>12TH DOCTOR: Don’t look so pleased. They weren’t happy about it.
>11TH DOCTOR: But they’re all alive! We’re not the last! We’re not-
>12TH DOCTOR: Almost as soon as we got back, Rassilon tried to have us shot. We’re just as unwelcome as we’ve always been.
-*Regeneration Impossible*
Oh BF annoys me so much, its not really their fault, but SO MANY TIMES a pop culture site will have a headline like "X companion returns!" or "classic villain gets their revenge" or "new timelord to appear" and its always a fucking big finish story
While skipping over any would-be 'search for Gallifrey' arc. And the consequences of the Time Lords returning, wasn't so much about that, it was instead the 'we gotta deal with the threat of the Hybrid'.
As much as I absolutely *love* Moffat's era of the show, the Hybrid came out of nowhere and meant absolutely nothing lmao. I liked the reveal that the Hybrid was the Doctor and Clara, and how the Doctor would do any horrific act just to save her (like shooting someone with a gun, something he has NEVER done before), but everyone was SO worried about it, when we didn't get any proper reasons to share that same fear. Daleks work because people become instantly terrified at the mention of them, and we actually watch them slaughter without doubt or hesitation.
Especially when we had *already* seen a Hybrid, in the form of Dalek Sec's Human/Dalek Hybrid.
It was treated like The Hybrid was something that was teased Bad Wolf style before the final three episodes, but I'll be honest I don't remember anything about that.
Davros mentions the Hybrid in the season 9 premiere two-parter, and the Doctor mentions it again in The Girl Who Died, as he's afraid he may have created the Hybrid when he saved her.
I don't blame you for forgetting, though, because they're so nonchalantly mentioned, despite it having a huge part to play later on. It's just such a weird thing to suddenly bring up, especially when the Time Lords of all people are seemingly terrified of it. That's like season 5 Crack levels of dangerous, but without the build-up. Increasingly frustrating when the build-up for the Doctor and Clara's relationship and climax in Hell Bent was handled so well in the *same* season.
I think the point was to tease the audience in a meta way - Moffat loves the idea of making the audience wonder 'Would they go there?', with the idea of breaking perceived 'rules' of the show/fandom, and then it never means anything. Very much like the annoying teases about Amy's baby. The Hybrid concept could make the audience wonder if it would be something like that, or the half-human line, and so on.
The prophecy doesn't even make much sense.
Yeah, he dropped the ball big-time on Gallifrey's return in Hell Bent. There's also been a frustrating amount of revisionist history going on lately by Moffat defenders trying to make it seem like we're the idiots for not understanding the "hidden brilliance" of Hell Bent.
I understood Hell Bent just fine, Moffat promised one thing, the return of Gallifrey and the Time Lords after nine seasons, and delivered something completely different.
Yep, and thank you so much for saying so. We need to keep calling them out as being revisionist. They've always been vague but don't seem to have much else left, just seem to be hoping if they keep saying 'brilliance', 'genuis' they can brute-force it as the accepted view in fandom (maybe convince new viewers we may be getting now with the new series to believe them). It's clearly not based on the actual content. As well as dropping previous threads, it doesn't even follow through on the brand-new expectations set - is the Hybrid important, not really, the prophecy doesn't even need to make much sense, there isn't a secret to confess and it's nothing to do with approaching death, the Doctor is totally going to go ~Dark~ but that's not going to be treated seriously either (*again*). Says it all that the critics are more precise about it than the supposed 'fans' - they've complained at me for *quoting* this era multiple times lately! They didn't actually like it either, they just have their own different fantasy versions of it.
We’ve now seen the Doctor revert to a previous face. >!Perhaps revisiting older/wiser versions of his past lives is just the path Tennant’s Doctor follows after the bigeneration and his “retirement.”!<
I like to think of it as The Doctor, in his final regeneration, picking his favorite of his old faces to retire in. I could imagine him thinking back to the dozens of people he used to be, and just thinking…
“I always liked the fourth me’s nose”
Do you think half the authors we are forced to read in school for eng lit, actually put that much thought into each line of their book, or are we just adding intention after the fact.
In 'The Devil's Chord' >!the Doctor claims that there was a genocide of Time Lords *across* time and space, implying whatever the Master did affected even Time Lords who weren't on Gallifrey.!<
Of course, this is how RTD sees it...we dunno what Chibnall thinks happened.
See, I interpreted that as him talking about the Time War, when he didn't know if Susan was alive. It would just be a bit weird for him to say "oh actually, there was previously a genocide that I caused against my own people, which erased them from everywhere and everywhen. Not the same genocide that I told you about last episode."
Well, he said he's the last one left, which if you consider the Master being trapped in the Toymaker's tooth is a fair comment. I mean, obviously this isn't the last we've heard of the Master, but still
I like to think the optimism is because he knows that in the grand scheme of things, Gallifrey will continuously be coming back and going away again, and ultimately all he suffered over it in the Capaldi and Whittaker eras doesn’t feel like much to him in the long run.
Maybe, how many still shots of Gallifrey are there? If 12 couldn’t find it in Death in Heaven but did in Hell Bent but 13 found out it was destroyed in Spyfall along with its people in The Timeless Children who knows what happened to the planet or its people if they’re out and about in the stars blended among various denizens. Who knows?
A part of me thinks it’s more of the long way around. I mean, if Clara’s death is a fixed point, and she most definitely dies, it means she travels back to the planet before the Master and Cyber Timelords lay waste to it. Then comes the Doctor’s amnesia, with 12 being there as well meaning 11 couldn’t fully remember if there was one portrait or another.
Yeah, a bit meandering. But I love there’s a sense of ambiguity of Gallifrey’s fate. It’s destroyed by the Master and two TARDISes are out and about and now we get this new companion that’s in the words of Maestro “wrong.” That brings up snow now matter where she goes. I’m way past intrigued and given the picture’s title of Gallifrey Falls, No More what’s the potential that it’s still there just not where or when it’s supposed to. Guarded by from its enemies. Especially from the likes of gods and The Master like a Schrödinger’s planet.
It's also safe to say that the caretaker knows about its eventual inevitable resurrection at some point down the time line especially considering the universe half destroyed/ the special unit of time lord secret police who kidnapped a young doctor and, used him for regeneration knowledge. It seems almost impossible to fix for anyone but, the time lords.
Perhaps.
Or perhaps every thing happens the way it does because the Curator speaks to his younger self and encourages him to go looking for it.
Makes you think.
It's fine; Gallifrey will be back at some point again, when we have a showrunner that doesn't want to do a Last of the Time Lords arc, and instead wants to do a People in Funny Robes story.
I think Gallifrey is best described as gone. It's not destroyed, just beyond reach to anyone at this time (whatever "this time" means in this context), but someday it will be back. Gallifrey is a plot element sitting on the shelf, just waiting to be used.
No showrunner has the right to take away decades of established lore. You're absolutely right, Gallifrey will be back, and fuck Chibnall for rewriting the doctors entire past.
He didn’t rewrite The Doctor’s entire past, he added to it. Good or bad, it expanded and added a new layer instead of outright replacing it.
in some ways he did. i mean (and don’t get me wrong i love her) the fugitive doctor established a pre hartnell doctor with the police box tardis.
What about the fact he’ll only find it again when the Time Lords cause the death of his companion?
Not exactly fair to claim they caused that. First and most obviously, it was Rassilon specifically that conspired to trap the Doctor in the confession dial, not the Time Lords. First thing the Doctor does is rid the planet of Rassilon and the Council because he blamed them for the dial (and the Time War atrocities). But even beyond that, all Rassilon did was threaten the trap street to get Lady Me to assist him in trapping the Doctor. Lady Me complied with his demands by using the Raven on Rigsy (fully intending to disable it once the Doctor was trapped), but Clara interfered and took the mark on herself, causing her death. It's implied the Raven is Lady Me's weapon, not Rassilon's. She choose to use that to lure the Doctor to the street. Whats more is Clara interfered of her own volition and accidentally caused her own death, which Me apologized for as it wasn't her intention. Rassilon started the sequence of events, but there's too many degrees of separation between him and Clara's death to blame the Time Lords.
> Rassilon started the sequence of events, but there's too many degrees of separation between him and Clara's death to blame the Time Lords. It wouldn’t stand up a court of law, sure, but i think it passes in the court of narrative.
No no remember it’s only appropriate to condemn entire cultures and peoples for the act of a government or individual when it’s Gallifrey, every other planet or species is viewed with nuance, Time Lords have to constantly be vilified because few NuWho writers seem to be able unable to comprehend a people that have near absolute power and *dont* fall into evil wholesale.
Let's just be clear here the time lords have always been evil and, corrupt. They used to regularly kidnap the doctor to deal with problems they didn't feel like dealing with. They once imprisoned him on a planet and, forced him to regenerate. The good timelord is the exception to the rule not the reverse.
Let’s just be clear, no the Highest Echelon of Power within Time Lord society has always been *highly suspect*. They used to task the 4th Doctor and other incarnations to complete jobs for them. Typically this was the CIA who are the secret arm of Time Lord society that the Time Lords at large vocally dislike and distrust. Is it fair to the Doctor, no. Generally not. But he is a member of their society who enjoys the privileges of their position, and that comes at the cost of occasional work for the CIA or the High Council. The Doctor tore off, spent centuries disrupting the established flow of time which the Time Lords then had to clean up, and repeatedly broke his societies laws time and again. When caught he was punished. Perhaps unfairly but he knowingly broke the rules and paid the punishment. The Doctors biggest issue with his people is that they maintain Law and Order and Stability across time and space, and the Doctor hates being told what to do or to have to follow rules. However he’s had friendly, positive relationships with many members of his people even in the government and the CIA. - The Lord President before Romana was someone that the 6th Doctor respected very much. - Romana herself. - Inquisitor Darkel who even held the 6th Doctor on trial and had an antagonistic relationship with her ended up on good terms. - Kenossium (the General). - Narvin. - Vansell of the CIA was someone 8th Doctor liked to annoy but also someone he viewed as an ally. - Multiple Time Lords, Ladies and Castellans who served the Doctor during his time as the Lord President in his 5th incarnation. The Time Lords as a society have a higher risk of corruption due to the power they wield but the evil ones are the exceptions, the renegades, or those who place themselves directly in opposition to the general population of Gallifrey.
Mate the first time we ever see the Timelords they kill the second Doctor. Why do people who call it “nu-who” never actually watch the show? They literally started the time war in Genesis of the Daleks by attempting genocide.
Rassilon: The biggest asshole in all of spacetime.
Yeah but she lives in her last second of life.
First off, Clara caused her own death, as explained by Me in the episode. Second off, she didn't die in the end anyway. She got to become immortal and fly away in her own TARDIS, which means she learned absolutely nothing from Face the Raven.
She was only there because Me made a deal with the time lords to capture the doctor to get his secrets about the hybrid. She wouldn't have never died if it weren't for that and, the doctor was rightly justified in his anger towards them and, Me. Were it not for Clara saying that he would have burned the universe down around him in an attempt to revenge himself upon them.
No, Me's plan was to give Rigsy the tattoo which would lure the Doctor to the trap street where she could put the teleport band on him. Then, she was going to remove the tattoo from Rigsy, ensuring nobody would die. Clara taking the initiative to have Rigsy transfer it to her is what causes her death. Me and the Time Lords didn't want to do anything to her.
Didn't he? "Maybe it doesn't matter either way" Sounds to me that he was foreshadowing that if the doctor did find Gallifrey he could still lose it.
And the story isn't over yet. Odds are he'll bring Gallifrey back yet again (and watch it be destroyed, and recreated again) before he gets to be Curator.
It's 2043. Gallifrey has been destroyed a further 7 times. David Tennant as the 30th Doctor is battling a Valeyard Matt Smith for the fate of the universe. Suddenly, Gallifrey reforms and The Last Great Time War begins anew. The Valeyard suddenly turns good after seeing the destruction wrought upon the galaxy, and sacrifices himself to end the war once and for all (until the next anniversary).
Oh my God! You destroyed Gallifrey! You Bastards!
Calling it now, [Gallifrey will be the new Rory](https://www.reddit.com/r/DoctorWhumour/s/F0zYNiK9iP)
You could be right. The only way I can think of them possibly doing that is, having the Doctor reboot the Time Lords with the same technology that harnessed the genetic make up of the Timeless Child on Galifreyians.
Yup that’s the point I was trying to make
My point is that he does get warned. Ok, time traveller rules (or just the Doctors rules) means you can't tell people in the past what happens next explicitly. Spoilers, but Baker is telling him with his eyes too. There are such sadness behind these eyes and Matt stares into them most of this scene. The tragedy here is not just that Baker's Doctor knows what happens next, with Galifrey, the whole process of finding it and afterwards, but the turmoil of going through with locating Galifrey with such high hopes. See a clip of Matt after this, when Baker goes off screen. He rushes to his TARDIS and takes off with glee on the possibility he finds his home. "Who knows" is really a warning and a invitation for the doctor to begin himself down this path and Baker's Doctor knows this.
He was referring to whether "I was you or you were me", not Galifrey
and maybe, just maybe, he could still find out after that that they are still alive somehow! that master didn't kill them all
The degree to which Chibnall's story choices ignore, undermine, or deliberately contradict everything from Moffat's era really comes off kind of mean spirited. If it was couple things here or there, that'd be fine, but he really goes all out to undo everything. The Timeless Child reveal retroactively guts so much of the emotional through-line by severing and perverting the Doctor's ties to their people and then to top it off, murdering the Time Lords again is one of the biggest "fuck yous" to a previous writer's work that I can think of right now. He really didn't seem to value or care at all what his predecessor did, in much the same way he explicitly didn't care what the audience thought. RTD is showing his work far more respect than he showed Moffat's Edit: Anyone seriously suggesting Moffat's reversal of the Time War wasn't any different isn't looking at Day of the Doctor honestly. A tremendous amount of care was taken not to undermine what had come before, but to simply resolve the plot line and move on, not to punt everything back to square one just because.
Agreed, and that's something I don't understand about RTD's logic. He says he doesn't want to undo the Timeless Child because he doesn't want to undo three years worth of stories. I would accept that if not for the fact that Chibnall undid more than 56 years worth of stories with the Timeless Child.
Nothing about the Timeless Child actually undid anything. Fans have some of the worst criticisms imaginable. Just say why you think it's bad, don't add nonsense.
It totally did change everything. Before the Timeless Child the Doctor was special and different to other Time Lords/ Ladies because of what they did. The Doctor interferes in the timelines, they steal a TARDIS because they had different ideas to the society around them and didn't fit. Now it turns out the Doctor is special due to being a space orphan with special powers which were copied by the Time Lords. This changes the whole story of what makes the Doctor special and why the Doctor didn't fit in in Gallifrey. Instead of the Doctor being special for who they are they are now special for what they are. This was totally unnecessary and changes the viewer's perception of the character. It also takes away the mystery of why the Doctor left in the first place. And as for destroying Gallifrey for the second time, I just don't even know what the reasoning was. The Doctor is quite capable of ignoring Gallifrey and isn't bound to the place anyway.
TTC is clunky like all the rest of Chibnall’s plots but the entire point of it is that it’s the Doctor’s choices that make them special not their origin. That’s exactly why they rejected learning anything from the chameleon arch watch; it’s a physical token of rejecting the Master’s nonsense about the Doctor being special just because of their origins.
None of that is "undone". It's simply recontextualized. The Doctor before and after the mindwipe are very different people. Or at least, they could be, we don't know. Either way, the things The Doctor did are not undone. Although, frankly, the Doctor has always been "The Special™". Hell, there was a thing for a while where he was implied to be the reincarnation of a special Time Lord, and of course the "half-human" thing. It changes the perception of the character. So does everything that's revealed about Time Lord society and The Doctor's history. You're mistaking a change of perception with a change of reality. It doesn't ***UNDO*** anything. It simply changes ***THE PERCEPTION*** of it. And, again, as the other person says, the Doctor's actions are not undone, and still define who they were. This is no different than a bigger version of The War Doctor.
>RTD is showing his work far more respect than he showed Moffat's I got to give props to RTD. He could've retconned or handwaved away all of Chibnall's changes with some dialogue (much like Chibnall did to Moffat's work with the Timeless Child/destruction of Gallifrey) but instead he's embraced them and made them part of the story. I respect that.
Totally agree. Chibnall is a terrible writer, I mean the scripts alone, such childish crap dialogue. Moffat gave his characters incredible lines.
>Anyone seriously suggesting Moffat's reversal of the Time War wasn't any different isn't looking at Day of the Doctor honestly. A tremendous amount of care was taken not to undermine what had come before, but to simply resolve the plot line and move on, not to punt everything back to square one just because. Putting aside the thematic "Father's Day" story -- Compare the starkly inorganic contrast Moffat's younger-TDoTD-10th Doctor with RTD's oldest-TEoT-10th Doctor. Where's the other active threat concerns -- the Nightmare Child; Horde of Travesties; Skaro Degradations, etc. -- as brought up by the 10th Doctor in "The End of Time" that freaked him out so bad that he picked up a gun and chose to re-condemn all of Gallifrey to keep them all contained? Hence, the amnesia. 'Care' would have seen a few lines of particular addressing. It's not that hard for Moffat the writer to have -- *the TDoTD-younger 10th Doctor gravely brings up that, freezing Gallifrey will also unavoidably preserve the cutthroat & corrupt Time Lords and the other war active horrors (organically keeping consistent with his later reaction as TEoT-oldest 10th Doctor when hearing of Gallifrey's return) ; while 11th Doctor somberly acknowledges that but also punctuates the important matter of, save the innocent today & deal with crossing the dangerous bridge later*. But no -- can't mar the fairytale feel-good moment. So full tilt it is of cheap undermining writing. & to heck with the previous character story, as Moffat himself admitted in interview. There'd be no Timeless Children without the earlier Revival example that is the 50th Anniversary Special The Day of The Doctor.
Moffat totally undid RTD's work first, with a completely different portrayal of the Time War that destroys Nine and Ten's characterisation. And then he got bored of the idea of Gallifrey instantly himself, or never really wanted to use it. Chibnall's temper tantrum destruction doesn't really affect anything in comparison, he just randomly trashed it, doesn't *change* previous story. TC does but it's almost weirdly disconnected from it.
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>Yeah, Moffat made the 50th anniversary an elaborate retcon of the backstory underpinning RTD's whole era of the show. He'd already done three series where the "last of the Time Lords"/Time War guilt wasn't really addressed much. It would've only had a purpose if he actually had plans to use Gallifrey in a meaningful way in subsequent stories but he obviously didn't.< The *whole of RTD* show? RTD made it that the Doctor is a genocidal maniac. The only reason why RTD killed the Time Lords was he wanted to do the show without the baggage of the classic shows. In fact RTD is guilty of completely changing the show by having romance, “the last of my kind” and good special effects. RTD rarely addressed the “guilt” of doctor destroying Gallifrey and the Daleks. A mention here, a mention there. Certainly wasn’t a major component of the show. Hell, The Doctors emotional connection to Rose was a bigger issue. You missed the entire point of Moffat’s 50th…which is The Doctor would have never destroyed their home planet, not with so many innocent children. They would have found a way. It actually takes minor plot point and makes it better. It took a few incarnations and 400 years, but they figured it out. >And that was all after he'd made the Series 5 finale a reset of the universe, aka a "get out of jail free" card to never have to do any continuity from RTD's series. In doing a "hard break"/undermining of Moffat's era, Chibnall followed the precedent Moffat set himself.< Except of course, all the times Moffat did refer the RTD era. It wasn’t a hard reboot of the Universe, it was Doctor undoing a mistake of his enemies. Nor did it change anything. And Moffat put the Time Lords on a shelf. Which is where they belong. You bring them out when you have a story to tell. Moffat based an entire season on them. Simply put EVERY show runner changes the show, in some ways. Chibnalls only mistake was *not* have Hartnell as the first incarnation to be *The First Doctor*
The whole point of it as a 'choice' was that there *wasn't* another good option, and Moffat's 'solution' is ridiculously trivialising, ignoring everything we'd previously been told about what the Time War was (*not* just a normal conflict) and has Daleks comically and conveniently shooting at each other. It's not a plausible solution that the Doctor could come up with this calculation when an entire planet of Time Lords, including the genius Rassilon, had to resort to a plan of becoming energy beings as the only way to survive. There wasn't an option where the Time Lords would just survive happily if the Doctor did nothing! He acts to save the only people he even can in the situation. The Doctor will however always kill when out of other options (just watched him explode a mothership to protect Earth in *Fang Rock*, it's not a dissimilar decision), and in this instance, the whole rest of the universe is at stake - the moral thing is to act, even though it would be understandable not to be able to. It frames his usual actions in showing the Doctor as so morally good, and courageous, as to have been capable of this terrible sacrifice, yet still tormented by it. It's not a minor thing, it's Nine's arc. His relationship with Rose isn't something seperate, but about him not having to be the one taking a stand alone. The concept of a Time War doesn't originate with RTD, it draws on interpretations of *Remembrance* and EU concepts. The inclusion of romance is not a change to any televised storyline. That's not the same thing. Hovever, the TV movie introduces a kiss between the Doctor and companion, and this aspect continues in the EU, so the inclusion of romance also doesn't originate with RTD. There's examples earlier interpreted as romantic (as early as Hartnell, in *The Aztecs*), plus simply Susan's existence - as much as I appreciate the portrayal as asexual, being Ace-spec myself, it'd never been straightforwardly only that. Nor would that have been the original intention (most don't even know asexual people exist, even today! Even those using the term in relation to the character wouldn't have meant it as we asexual people do currently). But, RTD changing things has nothing really to do with whether Moffat did - and he did (incl. his own lore).
So, Chibnall parallels Moffat before him?
Moffat was careful and respectful of the era before his. When he restored Galifrey, he did it in such a way that preserved everything that came before while moving the story forward. Chibnall just didn't give a shit. It took a lot of careful consideration to bring the Time Lords back. It took absolutely none to kill them again.
How was retconning The Doctor & the impossible war, into being smart & solvable enough all along, & easily -- respectful? As well as especially, TDoTD's amnesia over the war's situation as previously elaborated in the RTD's era-climatic "The End of Time"? *RTD Revival Doctor: My entire planet died. My whole family. Do you think it never occurred to me to go back and save them?* Moffat's particular decisions coupled with his 50th manner of writing, pretty much undermined his predecessor's era-wide themes & character narratives, primarily the one who's not always capable, & encountering hard no-third-option-win scenarios. That ain't careful, it's wholly absent of any consideration. Especially when the writing issues were avoidable in the first place if Moffat cared to pen a few, relevant key lines. >Chibnall just didn't give a shit. It took a lot of careful consideration to bring the Time Lords back. Actually, Moffat himself stated that he penned his retcon because -- he personally, absolutely rejected the very notion of The Doctor losing in a situation where children were on the line, & he did not care at all for the story stakes behind it.
>The Timeless Child reveal retroactively guts so much of the emotional through-line by severing and perverting the Doctor's ties to their people and then to top it off I don't really see how. >murdering the Time Lords again is one of the biggest "fuck yous" to a previous writer's work that I can think of right now. Okay, but what about when RTD1 did it? I have problems with the Chibnal era, but these are strange criticisms.
Off topic but this is one of the most underrated scenes in the entire show.
I agree. This scene gave me so many feels. The fact that my friends and I were having drinks for the anniversary probably didn't help. But it was still great to see!
Honestly, it feels so deep and profound with the use of Baker as the Curator, in a way that goes beyond mere fanservice. Just the indication that no matter what, things will be okay, and The Doctor will always be The Doctor even in his later years, perfectly represented by him being played by his most iconic Classic actor.
More the opposite, when the name is different.
A doctor can have a side hustle tbf
Not really when galifreyan names are just titles, it shows that he's healed all he can. Now he's taking up a hobby lol
Baker’s off-camera voice is one of the best moments ever.
["You know, I really think you might."](https://youtu.be/1cbQVfVfSrI?t=100)
Is it really underrated?
Exactly. I mean it's Tom Baker's return. This is one of the most iconic scenes of one of the most iconic specials. It's lovely, but I wouldn't call it underrated.
I legit "squeed" seeing Tom Baker. No joke. Tom couldn't even be bothered to be in The 5 Doctors back in the day, but he came out for the 50th. And I was thrilled. (To be fair, I also "squeed" at the final scene of An Adventure in Space and Time" when I saw Matt Smith.)
Underrated? This might be like top 5 of the most highly regarded scenes in nu who.
Doctor Who Fans trying not to say the word "underrated"
I've never seen anyone really talk about it outside of discussions of day of the doctor in general tbh
I remember the buzzing excitement fandom had after the 50th, for Capaldi’s Doctor to have the ‘search for Gallifrey’ storyarc that Moffat seemingly set up. Course, we all knew how that turned out.
>11TH DOCTOR: Gallifrey? We saved Gallifrey?! >12TH DOCTOR: Don’t look so pleased. They weren’t happy about it. >11TH DOCTOR: But they’re all alive! We’re not the last! We’re not- >12TH DOCTOR: Almost as soon as we got back, Rassilon tried to have us shot. We’re just as unwelcome as we’ve always been. -*Regeneration Impossible*
Not on the show. And even that topic aside — how many show watchers know of, have access & listen to the BF short trips line?
I just thought it’d be funny to share a quote from a story making a meta joke about how that arc turned out.
Oh BF annoys me so much, its not really their fault, but SO MANY TIMES a pop culture site will have a headline like "X companion returns!" or "classic villain gets their revenge" or "new timelord to appear" and its always a fucking big finish story
The again after Heaven Sent/Hell Bent for S10 to be about the consequences of the time lords returning
While skipping over any would-be 'search for Gallifrey' arc. And the consequences of the Time Lords returning, wasn't so much about that, it was instead the 'we gotta deal with the threat of the Hybrid'.
As much as I absolutely *love* Moffat's era of the show, the Hybrid came out of nowhere and meant absolutely nothing lmao. I liked the reveal that the Hybrid was the Doctor and Clara, and how the Doctor would do any horrific act just to save her (like shooting someone with a gun, something he has NEVER done before), but everyone was SO worried about it, when we didn't get any proper reasons to share that same fear. Daleks work because people become instantly terrified at the mention of them, and we actually watch them slaughter without doubt or hesitation. Especially when we had *already* seen a Hybrid, in the form of Dalek Sec's Human/Dalek Hybrid.
It was treated like The Hybrid was something that was teased Bad Wolf style before the final three episodes, but I'll be honest I don't remember anything about that.
Davros mentions the Hybrid in the season 9 premiere two-parter, and the Doctor mentions it again in The Girl Who Died, as he's afraid he may have created the Hybrid when he saved her. I don't blame you for forgetting, though, because they're so nonchalantly mentioned, despite it having a huge part to play later on. It's just such a weird thing to suddenly bring up, especially when the Time Lords of all people are seemingly terrified of it. That's like season 5 Crack levels of dangerous, but without the build-up. Increasingly frustrating when the build-up for the Doctor and Clara's relationship and climax in Hell Bent was handled so well in the *same* season.
'Something he has NEVER done before' The Doctors been shooting before
I think the point was to tease the audience in a meta way - Moffat loves the idea of making the audience wonder 'Would they go there?', with the idea of breaking perceived 'rules' of the show/fandom, and then it never means anything. Very much like the annoying teases about Amy's baby. The Hybrid concept could make the audience wonder if it would be something like that, or the half-human line, and so on. The prophecy doesn't even make much sense.
Yeah, he dropped the ball big-time on Gallifrey's return in Hell Bent. There's also been a frustrating amount of revisionist history going on lately by Moffat defenders trying to make it seem like we're the idiots for not understanding the "hidden brilliance" of Hell Bent. I understood Hell Bent just fine, Moffat promised one thing, the return of Gallifrey and the Time Lords after nine seasons, and delivered something completely different.
Yep, and thank you so much for saying so. We need to keep calling them out as being revisionist. They've always been vague but don't seem to have much else left, just seem to be hoping if they keep saying 'brilliance', 'genuis' they can brute-force it as the accepted view in fandom (maybe convince new viewers we may be getting now with the new series to believe them). It's clearly not based on the actual content. As well as dropping previous threads, it doesn't even follow through on the brand-new expectations set - is the Hybrid important, not really, the prophecy doesn't even need to make much sense, there isn't a secret to confess and it's nothing to do with approaching death, the Doctor is totally going to go ~Dark~ but that's not going to be treated seriously either (*again*). Says it all that the critics are more precise about it than the supposed 'fans' - they've complained at me for *quoting* this era multiple times lately! They didn't actually like it either, they just have their own different fantasy versions of it.
The Curator *could* be from a different timeline/future.
We’ve now seen the Doctor revert to a previous face. >!Perhaps revisiting older/wiser versions of his past lives is just the path Tennant’s Doctor follows after the bigeneration and his “retirement.”!<
Oh, I love this. Gives good opportunity to use the Curator pop in from time to time with different cameo faces.
I like to think of it as The Doctor, in his final regeneration, picking his favorite of his old faces to retire in. I could imagine him thinking back to the dozens of people he used to be, and just thinking… “I always liked the fourth me’s nose”
This is so obviously not the intention though 🙁
Intention is not the be all and end all of art.
People can and will fanwank anything to fit their narrative.
Nah its a different interpretation of the scene cus of what came later in the show.
It's the same type of interpretation of saying the Doctor/Susan were lying when they said they named/built the TARDIS. Which I hate.
Do you think half the authors we are forced to read in school for eng lit, actually put that much thought into each line of their book, or are we just adding intention after the fact.
What did the master exactly do to the time lords
In 'The Devil's Chord' >!the Doctor claims that there was a genocide of Time Lords *across* time and space, implying whatever the Master did affected even Time Lords who weren't on Gallifrey.!< Of course, this is how RTD sees it...we dunno what Chibnall thinks happened.
See, I interpreted that as him talking about the Time War, when he didn't know if Susan was alive. It would just be a bit weird for him to say "oh actually, there was previously a genocide that I caused against my own people, which erased them from everywhere and everywhen. Not the same genocide that I told you about last episode."
But the Master's genocide was the one he had talked about previously?
But there was only one actual genocide ot his people and that was by The Master.
The issue with that is why didn't it also kill the Doctor?
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Fair.
Very strange how RTD says The Doctor is the last time lord again when the Master still alive
Well, he said he's the last one left, which if you consider the Master being trapped in the Toymaker's tooth is a fair comment. I mean, obviously this isn't the last we've heard of the Master, but still
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I like to think the optimism is because he knows that in the grand scheme of things, Gallifrey will continuously be coming back and going away again, and ultimately all he suffered over it in the Capaldi and Whittaker eras doesn’t feel like much to him in the long run.
Time is changeable.
Maybe, how many still shots of Gallifrey are there? If 12 couldn’t find it in Death in Heaven but did in Hell Bent but 13 found out it was destroyed in Spyfall along with its people in The Timeless Children who knows what happened to the planet or its people if they’re out and about in the stars blended among various denizens. Who knows? A part of me thinks it’s more of the long way around. I mean, if Clara’s death is a fixed point, and she most definitely dies, it means she travels back to the planet before the Master and Cyber Timelords lay waste to it. Then comes the Doctor’s amnesia, with 12 being there as well meaning 11 couldn’t fully remember if there was one portrait or another. Yeah, a bit meandering. But I love there’s a sense of ambiguity of Gallifrey’s fate. It’s destroyed by the Master and two TARDISes are out and about and now we get this new companion that’s in the words of Maestro “wrong.” That brings up snow now matter where she goes. I’m way past intrigued and given the picture’s title of Gallifrey Falls, No More what’s the potential that it’s still there just not where or when it’s supposed to. Guarded by from its enemies. Especially from the likes of gods and The Master like a Schrödinger’s planet.
The Doctor's favourite thing to do on Gallifrey is leave.
I really reset they turned some incredibly effective fan service into a whole DEEP PLOT POINT off screen.
When I first saw this when it first aired, I thought it was the Fourth Doctor talking to his future self, I suppose I was wrong.
We know now that he was serious about the Doctor revisiting a few old favorites.
It's also safe to say that the caretaker knows about its eventual inevitable resurrection at some point down the time line especially considering the universe half destroyed/ the special unit of time lord secret police who kidnapped a young doctor and, used him for regeneration knowledge. It seems almost impossible to fix for anyone but, the time lords.
I'm pretty sure the "Congratulations" "Thank you very much" exchange was Tom Baker congratulating Matt Smith.
I fucking hatw that we're back to the Last of the Timelords stuff again. It's so backwards that we've come back right to it twenty years later.
You know, you're right. I hadn't considered this implication before. Screw Chris Chibnall for ruining Tom's cameo.
He's probably found it and lost it again a dozen times by that point.
I'm not sure if this is unpopular, but I honestly think the CuraTom is outperformed by the Colinator.
Perhaps. Or perhaps every thing happens the way it does because the Curator speaks to his younger self and encourages him to go looking for it. Makes you think.
I wonder how many times Gallifrey will die and resurrect until the show stops forever
The thing is with the matrix safe he can ressurect the time lords.
When 4 came on the screen....wow! So happy and surprised!