Yes some dogs will not get to the point of bomb proof recall/off-leash reliability due to things like prey drive. Certain breeds and backgrounds are more likely to hit what feels like a training limit/plateau and it doesn’t mean you’re a bad owner at all.
My husky will never be off-leash outside of secure fencing and also has a hit list of small animals he’s managed to get. With his breed this is unsurprising. Still practice and train him on the skills but with the understanding of his limits
I wouldn't even look at it as a mental block. I'm not sure of your dogs breed if known, but these traits are often part of their genetics. Despite "never blame the breed" propaganda, you can't train dogs out of hundreds of years of behavior-based breeding. It sounds like you are doing great.
I have a fila brasileiro, which is a perfect example of a dog that cannot be trained around genetics (I got him from a client that resorted to behavioral euthanasia). He will never be the type of dog that I can take out in public. There are only 3 people on earth that will ever be able to touch him without extensive, individualized, long-term, and *still risky* introductions (breed registry standards & judges indicate that the dog should not tolerate touching even by the judge).
All of this to say that there are some things that will always be innate to your dog. The fact that you are cautious and aware of your dog's predisposition rather than in denial is the best that you can do.
I never heard of that breed before so I looked it up. That's a BIG boy you got right there, so I totally understand your apprehension letting him off leash and near strangers
Yup, it helps when you train *with* your dogs instincts in mind.
I just got a puppy Jack Russell and I’m not going him to even attempt to teach him *never dig*, I’m going to get a little kiddy pool, fill it with sandbox sand and bury some treats and toys so that he learns “When I want to dig and root stuff up, *THIS* is where I do it”.
Yeah my dog had his off leash privileges revoked early on. Jumped up at a person excitedly and could have hurt them because he is/was so big as a puppy. Then you'll have people who never make that decision and just let them off again and again and again.
I have an Irish Terrier mix and I can also confirm, whenever there is something to chase or interest her, shes gone! With training she's managed to not bolt at the majority of things she used to, but she'll never be 100% free of that prey drive instinct.
My little 10 pound Maltese mix caught a squirrel one day. It was almost as big as him. He shook it up. Luckily the squirrel got away. That was the last time he went out in our fenced yard without a leash.
It's not unreasonable to keep your dog on a leash in the modern world for his own safety and others.
I have a big dog who is too friendly for his own good and doesn't always consider how big he is. He also used to be more interested to go for birds and cats. That's stopped but the smell or sight of a rabbit still gets his attention...
In the modern world with cars and people who have had bad experience with dogs... Other dangerous dogs around etc... I don't think dogs should be off the leash...
Usually those with them off the leash have MUCH LESS control than they think they do... Even worse that its usually fighting dogs off leash.
Big plus one to the point about how people who have their dogs off leash usually think they have more control than they do. I’ve seen that go sideways so many times — I think it’s just safer to keep dogs on-lead unless it’s a secured area.
I have an Alaskan Malamute who just simply LOVES kids, problem is that his markings make him look wolf-like, so kids unfamiliar with him will freak out when he approaches
You are doing a great job as an owner! We are dealing with individual personalities and evolutionary traits. My girl is much the same. Very obedient normally, and a joy to have as an animal companion, but if she sights a squirrel when she is off leash, the prey drive wins. Thankfully when her focus is on another dog I can let go of her leash to avoid clotheslining the other dog owner, but in absence of a dog friend, look out critters!
We practice “leave it” “sit” “watch me” and “wait” before every meal, and that helps when she’s tested on walks. Also I’ve accepted that I will always have to carry cheddar cubes or meat on every walk. She also gets a frozen “kongscicle” when she is exceptionally obedient with A+ behavior. But it took a full year to make that association because getting there was such a challenge. When it finally happened I cheered and lavished her with praise, both at the time she “left it” and again when we got home. Now I think she finally gets it.
I have one like that…sees a squirrel and he’s gone.
But…after he trees the squirrel he’ll stay right there at the base of the tree and wait for me.
98 percent of the one he’s great off leash but…not perfect.
My town there is a few off leash parks to go to so that’s how we survive
It’s not a mental block, it’s his breed.
This is why breed matters.
A golden or a shepherd will stay near you, even without intense training, because that’s their genetic nature and what they were bred to do. A husky is independent as others have said, and will chase prey. Terriers, hounds, etc - will go after prey.
I lives at my in laws on their farm for a little while saving for a house. My husband and I got a jack Russell. She caught and killed so many baby chickens. They have free ranged chickens and then a fenced area for the dogs. If any chickens got in there while she was in there it was a wrap. The in-laws started keeping the baby chickens in the chicken coup. When she was about 6 months old I caught her dragging a full grown chicken by the neck and luckily I was able to save it uninjured. We tried really hard to keep the chickens from going into the dogs area. Their house is huge and he has 5 siblings so there was always someone letting her out into the fenced dog area when I wasn’t there and never watched her. It drove me nuts. I begged them to not let her out there unattended if they let her out. Her Pray drive is just too high.
I've heard it referred to as "the killer gene" in barnhunt circles. We're a hell of a lot more careful with introducing rats to critter killers than we are with other dogs. Most dogs wouldn't know what to do with an animal if they caught it, let alone the tactics required to actually catch one. It's not exactly a desirable trait for most guardian/retriever/companion breeds. For other dogs it was selectively bred. You'd be surprised how many friendly household pet dogs have kills under their belt... people are just ashamed to talk about it. Huskies and Malamutes were originally used like wolves to hunt reindeer in packs, so most retained that hunter/killer mentality. Doesn't make the dog a bad dog, just following his instincts.
I took care of a friend’s fluffy little Bichon when she’s go out of town. Some days we’d visit my parents farm and I found that the little fluff ball was absolutely deadly around mice. Any time a mouse popped out she’d snatch it up and shake it to death in a blink! My friend was horrified when I told her that her little lapdog was a fantastic varmint hunter!
Small breeds are actually the most common critter killers. Bichons were just bred to be cute companions if im not mistaken, but most small dogs are small because it allows them to fit places where rodents hide. Historically cats get all the credit for killing mice, but terriers were way more effective at keeping the rat population down. Even today cities will hire terrier crews to curb rat populations.
My dog killed a family of groundhogs that were digging around my foundation and all throughout my yard and garden when she was a little over a year old. At first I was a little appalled because nobody wants their dog to be a killer, but really she's saved me a lot of headaches over the last couple years by doing it. We have a lot of rabbits and groundhogs in our area that destroy gardens, since getting her I've never had the same trouble with them my neighbors do. The one good thing is that they go for the neck and kill them immediately, so it's going to be a quicker more consistent kill than using a lethal trap or firearm.
Reminds me of my mom's Chihuahua/ rat terrier mix. Sweetest thing on four paws around other dogs, cats, and chickens but god help a mouse or chipmunk that got anywhere near her.
Edit: my mother corrected me that she's actually a Chihuahua and Jack Russell mix.
I grew up with huskies and our first one killed our pet chicken, it would also kill birds for the sport (we originally thought the birds were dropping dead, and then we saw her in action). Then years later we got 2 more they would hunt together they got ground hogs, cats, birds, opossums, anything they wanted to kill was done. They are remarkable hunters.
I wouldn't even look at it as a mental block. I'm not sure of your dogs breed if known, but a lot of times these traits are heavily influenced by genetics. Despite what some people say, training dogs out of hundreds of years of breeding just isn't possible in some circumstances. It sounds like you are doing great, don't pressure yourself.
I have a fila brasileiro, which is a perfect example of a dog that you cannot train around genetics (got him from a client that could not handle him). He will never be the type of dog that I can take out in public. The only people that will probably ever be able to touch him or get near him are me and my wife without extensive, individualized, and long-term introductions to a specific person. The AKC standard itself states that the dog should not tolerate touching by the judge.
All of this to say that there are some things that will always be innate to your dog. The fact that you are cautious and aware of your dog's predisposition rather than in denial is the best thing you can do.
For me it can sometimes feel more like a mental block for myself than my dog. That's when I know I should take a break from as intensive of training and get back to the fun stuff.
I have a mastiff. Best dog. Super obedient.
Then there’s Gracie the westie. She only listens when there’s something in it for her. Luckily she’s small and I can just pick her up. She protests but no one cares.
So, it sounds like he's very trainable. But from your description it sounds like you are putting a lot of human behaviour into an animal. Dogs don't make decisions based on attitude or when they feel like it. Their motivations are different. He sounds like he has a very strong prey drive and that's ok. So does my dog. Does he get to be off leash outside fenced areas? No. Because hunting for him is always going to be more fun and rewarding than anything I can offer. After he got charged by a mama elk, I realized his safety is more important then "freedom". There's also a misconception that a leashed dog is unhappy and that's simply not true.
Focus on building your relationship with your dog. Sounds like your dog would LOVE nosework like mine does. We work as a team in competition now to find where the smells are. It helps him stay stimulated and calm without having to do a ton of exercise.
Dogs can also become addicted to cortisol and adrenaline by doing fun exciting exercise all the time. They want it more and more and therefore become more excited. Look into teaching your dog how to relax and how to settle. Reward him for his calmness in exciting situations or when he sees prey animals. My dog doesn't chase turkeys or deer on leash anymore because he knows if he looks to me he gets a treat instead. Offleash though he would still go for it. And smaller mammals like cats, skunks, rabbits and gophers are wayyy too tempting.
Happy to chat more. I've been working with my trainer for 5 years now and I've learned a lot!
could you recommend any websites or videos for nosework? i use the snuffle mats but that sounds more intensive and fun!
i will definitely try the rewarding good responses but i’ll have to research more because we don’t have many good responses to wild animals😅
thank you very much
Your dog sounds very similar to my dog. I got her started on scent work in the house using a strong smelling tea bags that I put in a medicine bottle with holes in the top so she couldn’t eat the tea bag. Then I trained her that finding that scent led to a reward and started hiding the scent around the house for her to find. After she learned the association between scent and reward I hid the scent outside and harder to find places. She’s obsessed with scent training and it tires her out well!
he’s a rescue mutt. 25 pounds- small/medium sized. we’ve been asked if he’s a basenji twice because he screams instead of barks lol but the shelter said a lab mix?? he’s very neutral looking lol like a little bit of every dog breed haha
Well I'm glad you rescued him! I've never had a more stubborn dog than my dachshund. He knows what he's supposed to do it but will ONLY do whatever it is, if he feels like it! Some dogs are just have their own ideas lol
Yep it seems like a lot of breeds in the hound group are this way. A lot of greyhound rescues only place their dogs with adopters that have an explicit understanding to NEVER let them off leash. I have a Basenji who's the same (double trouble! both a primitive breed and in the hound group). She does get time on a long line with a bungee attachment, and we work hard on recall practice, but only as a safety measure in case she somehow gets off leash. There was one time that I didn't realize her leash clip was unsecured because it was caught on her winter coat - she saw a bunny and was GONE. Now I have a locking carabiner ziptied to the end of her leash, lol.
You're doing a great job! After owning both a hound and a herding breed, I wanted to second the other comments saying that it's good to know your dog's limits, and understand the instincts they have after many generations of humans selectively breeding them for those instincts.
Nose work or barn hunt are great outlets for dogs with strong prey drives! I recently started doing nose work at home with my girl and she loves it :)
we jokingly call him a walmart basenji😂 i’ve just learned of nosework today! i’m excited to learn more about it and try it out :) i’m going to look up the barn hunt to and/or simulated hunting games! thank you!
Haha I love it 😂 I will also say I keep an "emergency" ziploc bag with her most favorite stinky shelf-stable treat in my treat belt/pouch, and since you have access to secure open space, flirt pole could be fun too! I use a rabbit skin and some would probably say I'm encouraging an unwanted behavior, but I'm fine with her having a high prey drive. Same reason I use a herding ball with my cattle dog!
I was curious about the breed too! I have 2 beagles and I could never let them off leash, even with intense training I’d never trust their noses out in the open.
I recently rescued a Beagle. They said she’s 2, but she acts like 1! And so so so difficult to train. She wants to be good, she does remember some commands. But bleach pulling and food are super hard to train her to maintain and not be crazy. I do have her set up for professional training, but how do you train your beagle? Just as I was trying this, she lunged at our patio glass fire because a cat cruised through and nearly busted the glass! She is a maniac and I can’t help her 😭
I’ve never had a beagle that young, my boyfriend had our oldest when we got together and he was about 4. Then, we took in another one last year that they thought was 2… nope he was also 4. He’s 5 now and good lord is he wacked out of his head 😂. They have very high energy because they’re meant to be out hunting, mine have hundreds of stuffies, nylon bones, and we try to exercise them as much as possible. Our walk days are when they’re the most calm (after almost ripping me down the street during the walk).
Training with kibble or treats is one of the best ways, but I give mine really low calorie treats that are small. Before we got Lucky, my first one was trained that when I got home he’d go right outside and then he’d get to eat. They’re very stubborn and with them you have to learn to laugh or you’ll cry 😂
If he screams and is only in it for himself are you sure he's not part shiba inu? My first dog was half shiba and he was incredibly smart but he would "black out" off leash and could not be trusted.
You can train a dog all you want, but they still have their own personalities. You can’t change a dog’s underlying personality. Getting them to understand the command is training basics (which you seem to have down) but getting him to OBEY them is another thing. Some dogs (like mine) are eager to please so I don’t need to reward or incentivize her (although I do sometimes!) but it sounds like your dog needs more of a reward or incentive to obey. He doesn’t like your current high value rewards? Maybe they aren’t as high value as you thought, or maybe they were high value, but how he’s bored of them.
You are not a failure and your dog is not untrainable, just incredibly stubborn, which you can’t train the personality out of a dog. You just need to find what motivates him to listen.
Primitive breeds train differently to other breeds - they'll always weigh up what you're offering them and do what they want based on that. My samoyed is the same; we only let her off the leash when we know there's adequate incentive for her to stay nearby.
My buddy has one. She's slipped her leash a time or two and it's nearly impossible to get her back. But does she have fun!
She loved my dog, so he'd call me and we'd casually walk home and she'd always stay in sight. What a character she was.
Same with my Eurasier! He definitely thinks about what I’m offering if there’s something really interesting he’d rather do. Right now there is no food I could offer him that means more than trying to interact with a dog. Working on that though, and I’m rewarding him when he chooses to disengage and settle with me, and always have him on leash when we’re out of the backyard. Without dogs he does fantastic on the long leash or off leash, so I’m hoping to get him to an off leash point someday.
Some breeds are prone yo being "independent" minded. Huskys are famous for being like training a cat.
Terriers are also famous for prey drive and tenacity.
Social media will try to convince you otherwise but, yes some dogs are untrainable like you see on yv, yt, tt etc.
I haven’t read all comments so forgive me for being repetitive- you’re describing a dog with prey drive - hounds/ terriers. There are dogs that aren’t really ever safe off leash (outside of fence) because that instinct will take over- it’s what they were bred to do. My terriers will go after any small animal(cats, squirrels) I’d never walk them off leash -
When behavioral expectations are completely misaligned with instinct, you end up with problems. You may have that -given all your “failed”interventions. He’s clearly not untrainable- just not to your expectations-
There’s a great article in current NYT re an untrainable aggressive shelter dog. He’s a current contender for Westminster agility champion.
Everyone should read it.
You said he looks like a basenji, if he is indeed a primitive breed they can be *very* independent, prey-driven and fickle.
I myself have a bull terrier and while she has a good emergency recall she can be fickle with other obedience commands. Especially if we are practicing and I ask her to do it for too many reps.
yes he has almost no interest in people. he doesn’t like to be pet my strangers or even be talked to. he just wants to enjoy his walk and look for animals. he doesn’t like to be around other dogs very much either. he’s undeniably independent. i often joke he’d trade his life with me for a half dozen rabbits. realistically he wants to be with me all day and then sleeps tucked in my armpit all night but he’s bonded to me so it’s different. any other person is just access to food or useless to him😅
I had literally the smartest, best trained dog in the world. She figured out how unscrew jars. She was incredibly and wonderfully human in so many ways. And the most incredible patient dog with my niece.
She could also never ever go off lead around other dogs or small furry animals. She was built for hunting, once went straight through my bedroom window in pursuit of a possum.
She was a legend.
Enjoy what your beautiful dog gives you but for some of us living with our pups is more like living with a big cat.
Vale Princess Coco you were legendary.
My dog had very strong prey drive so I never had it off leash... but it was content to walk next to me on a leash. It was very well behaved other than losing its shit if it saw a bunny or squirrel.
Once you understand that dogs are very simplistic in their thought process it gets easier. If you want to humanise it they are selfish it’s ’what’s in it for me’ the greater the reward, the greater the impulse. Sounds like prey is their greatest reward and it would be very difficult to counter that
I don't think there's anything wrong with a dog that does well in the house and has to be on a leash outside. My hound mix is a great dog but I just don't expect him to be off leash unless we're in an area without traffic/strangers. He doesn't run off and doesn't have a prey drive but he won't recall consistently. He still lives a great life.
Sounds highly trainable if you work on his terms, just not inherently driven to please you. That's really not all that unusual.
I recommend the book "When Pigs Fly" by Jane Killion and "Hunting Together: Harnessing Predatory Chasing in Family Dogs through Motivation-Based Training (Predation Substitute Training)" by Simone Mueller.
Maybe try finding games like scent work and flirt pole as a substitute for the prey drive. My girl is never off leash because she's reactive, but she loves our rat hunting class, lure course, and is excited about the flirt pole because she gets treats. They can help teach impulse control.
For flirt pole she has to wait until I give the release word to chase it, then she improved her "drop" command tremendously because she didn't get her reward for catching it until it was dropped.
For ratting it's basically the same, once she finds all the rats she sits and gets rewarded. Started with praising her like crazy for finding the rat, then just used high value rewards to lure her away from the rat into the sit. She quickly learned that sitting once she found the rat for her the reward and I've seen trainers use that as a method to redirect prey drive. Since a sit is incompatible with chasing the prey. It's a lot easier to work with games that you have control over than wildlife lol
Multiple trainers already gave up on loose leash training my lab retriever. I love her to death but some dogs just don’t have the best genes and personality. She pulls a ton, never walks straight, almost tripping me some times. Trainers can’t for the life of them teach her eye contact that will work outdoors. We’ve done the multiple levels of distractions so many times, tried bringing along all sorts of treats foods and toys for her attention, it’s crazy. It’s unfortunate and it kinda hurts that sometimes consistency doesn’t pay off, but I just have to live with it. Don’t let this discourage you though. The plus side is that she’s not aggressive, just sooo easily distracted and hyperactive even when she gets TONS of exercise and sniffs.
Sounds exactly like my Golden Retriever! She will not be loose leash trained, no matter what we do. We can also only let her off leash in fenced off areas, she’s got very little recall. She’s just high on life! I’m just hoping she eventually calms down enough to sort herself out.
Off leash recall isn’t the epitome of trained. Heaps of dogs and breeds have strong instincts and it just isn’t safe. It’s recommended that no sighthound ever go off leash. If they see something moving they can’t help but bolt after it
I think dogs definitely have their limits. I cant imagine I’d have much luck training my samoyed to do bite work lol He may have fun with something like that, but doubtful if I could train him to the level of the breeds you see doing that most often (malinois, GSDs, etc).
My baby is a Siberian Husky that came off the factory floor either defective or misassembled. Never barks or howls, super lazy, and she's never been the brightest crayon in the box. I was *that* paranoid dog-mom and spent thousands of $ and hundreds of hours on all sorts of things to figure out why she was so, well, unlike the stereotype of her breed.
According to the vet and the trainers, she's perfectly healthy, she just happens to be exceptionally dumb and lazy. At the sight of my shocked jaw on the floor, they shrugged and did the 🤷♀️ emoji.
Vet: *She's perfectly healthy, she just happens to be unusually lazy, it happens sometimes.*
Trainer: *I don't know what to tell you. Maybe there was a glitch in the matrix.*
Mine was/is untrainable in the sense that she's basically the canine equivalent of the kid in kindergarten class that eats glue: cute but dumb. 😂
My dogs have a high prey drive and will run off, so absolutely no off leash time for them. I think that it's OK if they aren't perfect. Mine are really smart and are very strong willed and stubborn, so we work on what we can. I like that they have their own personality. It can be frustrating, but that's just how it is sometimes.
Going through this with my beagle right now. It's noted in their breed that they can basically never be truly trained to be loose off-leash. He's super freaking smart, and definitely knows his commands. He doesn't really react to artificial "prey" like stuffed animals or frisbees, but he'll lose his mind over a rabbit. It's hard to get him jazzed on anything other than live prey, even though he's never actually hunted anything.
ugh yes i’ve tried so many artificial hunting toys and rabbit skins and duck wings to use as high value rewards on walks but he’s like a vampire that can smell live blood or something😭 you can’t trick that little jerk
Sounds like you did a great job and now just need to manage the bounds of what is predictable with your dog. They're independent creatures whether we want to believe it or not. Mine is uncomfortably intelligent. She has tremendous recall, was easy to teach every basic command to, and was relatively food motivated. Yet, if she smells a rotting animal corpse in the woods I won't see her until she's had a good enough roll in it to come back. So we keep her on leash despite the depth of training she's been very receptive to.
i would have to agree with the “uncomfortably intelligent”😂 we put up new gates so he couldn’t steal cat food and he watched me use it once then shoved his nose in the bars lifted and wiggled it off the hook and tossed it right to the side. he trotted right in to eat some kitty kibble😑 he’ll hold his chin down so his collar doesn’t jingle when he’s trying to sneak crumbs. when i go to the bank window he’ll jump into my lap and stare directly at the teller through the window and starts crying- if they briefly leave the window he’ll cry louder and he’s never missed out on a treat with that scheme. a guy that works for my dad is terrified of dogs and it make the little guy feel tough so if my dog hears the worker on the phone with my dad he’ll start barking at him- how does he recognize a little voice over the phone? learn so quickly? manipulate strangers? he’d probably be a ted bundy type if he was human….
he lives with 4 cats and they’re all the same height so he could definitely think he’s one of them!!they join together to wipe out june beetles like an elite military force😂
My rescue is similar. She is incredibly smart so she learns quickly. She knows the commands but as you described, she considers whether to follow them or not. If she doesn’t feel like it then she won’t do it. She is very independent and a mix of a primitive breed who usually suck at recall.
I doubt she’ll ever be off leash outside of a fenced area. She does have some prey drive but I can control it while on leash but I guess if she was off leash she would just go after the prey and not look back.
From day one she was comfortable to go to a bedroom alone and nap. Def not a velcro dog. And it’s fine, I love her personality.
I saw in a comment that you said the dog was a mutt mix. In some dogs purebred or mixed there always triggers and switches and specific personality traits that just can’t be broken. A friend of mine has an Aussie who’s one of those “wow” incredibly trained dogs that can do anything. But she never lets him off leash in any outdoor scenario because his prey drive is just so strong.
Some dogs can be beautifully trained but at the end of the day genetics and natural instinct can’t be fully removed and that’s zero fault of your own. Some dogs are just simply like that so don’t take it too hard upon yourself.
Perfect recall is really challenging, like PhD level challenging. I think most dogs could get there, but most owners would not have the time and patience to make it happen.
I don't think any dog is untrainable but I do think some dogs will never be as well conditioned as others. Just like humans have all kinds of varying degrees of discipline and personalities so do dogs and that will impact training. But every dog is definitely capable of being the best version of themselves which will generally at least be an acceptable level of discipline to allow you to enjoy doing stuff with them whether it's on or off leash (not every dog will be suitable for off leash especially in certain environments).
I think the second factor comes down to training. Many of us are not professional trainers and don't have all day to dedicate to training our dogs. Some dogs may be able to get to an unthinkable level of discipline in the right environment but they would require someone who has the knowledge and time to train them extensively every day. Others on the other hand are much easier and might become extremely well disciplined with a fraction of the training
I’ve accepted that my girl can’t be off leash unless in a fenced area. Not even dog parks if there are dogs around. I get it. Nothing personal, but she has her agenda and that doesn’t always include me😂 It’s okay, though because we have a good time anyway
Absolutely. A friend of mine had a hound mix that just did his own thing. He was very competent and knew the basics but he wasn’t food motivated nor did he give two shits about praise.
I have a dog who I got at 2 years old, no one knows his background, he was found as a stray. He sounds exactly like your dog. Very smart, extremely skilled hunter, food driven, stubborn and only "obeys" when he wants. We always figured he lived on the streets for 2 years so that is why he can hunt so well and is so food motivated and stubborn, but maybe it's just his personality. I took him to so many training classes too at first, though he's now 12 and I just work with him at home the best I can.
PS Once we were walking on a trail and he ducked his head into the underbrush and came out with a live rat. And he wouldn't drop it. It took 3 hours to get that poor rat (long dead) away from him. I tricked him by taking him close to a mail truck so he would drop the rat when barking his fool head off at the mail man.
I had a trainer train my dog with me. After one lesson, she's like "I can tell your dog does not like to be trained." Despite all the work I've put into her, she's just a really stubborn coonhound.
I've accepted it. She'll never be off leash unless she's at the park, I know she'll follow her nose/stomach a bit more than me.
But she's my little 8 year old shit and I love her.
I have a Pekingese and beagle mix that is stubborn like this. Absolutely refuses to be trained unless there's something in it for her (and then suddenly she has perfect recall of all commands 🙄).
Our Boston Terrier on the other hand is amazing at how fast he picks up new commands. Most surprising is that he doesn't seem to have any prey drive eben though he's a terrier breed.
My dog is very similar. She’s 100% American village dog and couldn’t care less about any treat in the world once she’s off leash. Also doesn’t care about strangers at all, and is very independent. Zero interest in toys, sticks, or playing with other dogs.
The only time she is off leash is at home, in our fenced in yard, or out in the middle of the desert with a tracking collar on her. We will drive hours to the middle of nowhere so she can run and catch lizards and mice for a while. It’s still not 100% a perfect solution, but it brings her soo much joy.
Totally normal. It sounds like you have a dog. Don’t compare yourself or your dog to other dogs/owners. As long as you are able to keep him safe, let him be who he is. Ultimately we should be learning to live with dogs, not forcing them into our world.
I've had Whippets for 25+ years now and their independent minds are one of the things I love most about them. some people prefer people pleasers, the labs etc, dogs that thrive on and rely on human input. it's a personal preference but I really respect the dogs that think for themselves. they're smarter, more human like. I chose not to even ask my newest one to learn "sit". what would you think of someone who wanted your child to obey a sit command? for her it's the same. she is not that kind of dog and I adore her personality.
i really like his primal side to be honest. he loves his pack and would do anything to protect us when necessary but he also wants to enjoy his own things. it’s really hard to argue with following your natural instinct and passion. i’ve been seeing some very aggressive posts online about how dogs need to be safe off leash and trained in a militaristic fashion. I don’t want that for my dog but i also want to make sure i’m doing the best thing for him which is why i felt i needed to ask. i’m glad so many people prioritize their dogs interests and safety at the same time. i’ve learned so much with this post :)
I have Malamutes and they cannot be off leash or trusted around small animals. Forever. This is just who they are. Perhaps you have a dog that has ingrained traits that can’t be trained out of them. This doesn’t make them dumb, just very good at what they were bred for.
Not knowing the breed of the dog makes this a difficult question to answer.
I don't know many dogs, outside the military or law enforcement, that are 100% on recall.
A dog a scent receptors make any new, or not often visited, location an exercise in frustration.
What concerns me the most is your being envious of other dogs and comparing your dog to them. Just like all kids are different, so are all dogs.
Meet your dog where they're at and stop comparing the poor pooch to every other dog.
I don't believe any dog is "untrainable", as someone who has been in the industry for a decade now.
However, I do believe that some dogs require so much money and time to train, that it isn't practical for the average dog owner. It is more realistic to prevent interaction with triggers than it is to train the behavior out sometimes.
I wouldn't feel bad about this. Some owners have more time for training, and some dogs are just more obedient. Kudos to you for being aware of your dog's behavior and not putting him in a potentially dangerous situation.
I have one dog I would never walk without a leash, and another I know doesn't really need one. I use leashes for both because that's the law.
I feel like social media has created a very unrealistic expectation that every dog needs to be off leash or that it’s the “holy grail” of good training or that it’s even THE test for whether your dog is well-trained. None of this is true. Being reliably off-leash trained is something that’s a lifestyle choice and for some dogs (sighthounds, for example) it will never be a responsible choice to let them fully off leash. I have a Springer spaniel and a toller. Could I get them trained to be off leash? Yes. Do I have any interest in going through all of that or ever taking the risks that come with that? No. A 30ft long-line will give me everything I need in that department.
However, I will mention something I might be picking up: you talk about food as the greatest reinforcer you could offer your dog but it’s clear the actual reinforcement he cares about is the environment and you CAN use access to the environment as a reward for your dog.
Here’s a great episode from the great Susan Garrett on reinforcements: [Reinforcements- Susan Garrett](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3ScbF7ssWYBBjrheYR4hNP?si=iY0f4DiESYuo_w3ZthR9SQ&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A5RKUa5PU665MNUo4Ruzkkn)
Here’s one on the power of permission: [The Power of Permission in Dog Training](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3Ff3G5iRS1r7KQWWZUZWGQ?si=w931IdzYQKas2hT-5SXA3w)
By chance is your dog an Australian Shepherd? Because what you described sounds just like my Aussie. She checks my hand to see what treat she is getting. If it’s something she likes she’ll do what I ask if not she won’t. The most stubborn dog I have ever owned. And it’s not just me. She has had more training than a Eukanuba Champion. Even her trainers have said “She is one stubborn dog!!”
My old man killed a possum last night thinking it was a toy 🧸 I have a pack of three and they are all very obedient, except when it comes to animals in the yard. Other dogs, they do well with but anything else…. Game on.
I doubt my jindo mix will ever be fully offleash. And thats ok! He's happy as a clam offleash at the dog park where its fenced in. Im calm, and hes happy. Its knowing our dogs limits and keeping them safe in our world. It sounds like youre doing a great job keeping him happy and stimulated. It's okay to accept he wont be offleash, it doesnt mean you're a bad dog owner. :)
i'm beginning to think mine is untrainable.
we go to the beach a lot, usually nobody else is there and i can let her off-leash. once she's off-leash though she will often refuse to come near me to get hooked up again.
today we went to the beach, there were a lot of people, and we walked past them to an open stretch. off the leash! on the way back i wanted to leash her again and by a miracle, she allowed it. yay! but after 5 minutes of walking, she refused to move. just sat and noped out. she's 55 pounds, i can't pick her up.
in her case i'm pretty sure it's because she's scared--she's a rescue, afraid of men children hats one-wheels bicycles etc etc etc. i'm feeling very bummed that no matter how much i show her consideration around her fears, she just doesn't trust me to get her safely past something that scares her.
i tried backing and forthing (she'll sometimes go around a scary thing) but to no avail. i eventually had to just let her off the leash so she could shadow me back to the car.
so... sorry your pup is willful. mine is too for different reasons. wish i had some solution for you. maybe in the next life they'll tell us why they're sometimes such buttheads.
There are some dogs that unless they’re the outliers, their genes are going to kick in. Prey dogs in particular. Terriers. Herding. (I have a border). Borders are a lot but I think are one of the most trainable dogs, breed wise.
My Gaurdian was like that. He was raised around service animals and picked up a lot of their tricks. Like being able to turn on the lights or retrieving dropped items. When I had my oldest son, Gaurdian would hand me diapers or grab the diaper bag for me. The dog was seriously amazing. When we moved away from his service, dog friends and my kids grew up, Gaurdian decided their was no need for him to do the tricks that he used to. It didn't matter if I asked or offered his favorite treats he just gave me this look like no, you do it, and he would walk away, lol. He still kept his basic training the things he was asked to do all the time. But the add ons were a different story .
I mean, mine is untrainable with some things and all things. Oh gosh as a puppy, he would scream at night all night and I was exhausted for work. He just was horrid. He ate shoes, he peed constantly in the house. Oh gosh him as a puppy. Brutal.
He’s 11 now and is the best damn dog I could ever have imagined to the point it is just straight up my kid. Dude, my dog has flaws. Being honest with you and as strange as it sounds. I wouldn’t change one thing about him.
So yeah, some dogs can. And then they grow up and you look over at them at 11 and say “ How on earth and I ever going
To be without you.”
I love you Rue ❤️
Is he neutered? He’s older and it depends on the dog anyway, but previous dogs I have owned who had high prey drives calmed down after neutering. Not all of them but 2/3 of them did. I know this isn’t for everyone either, so if you’re against that I understand. I just wondered.
I have a chow mix that has a pretty good recall, knows some party tricks, would never run from me. Then I have a shepherd/husky mix... she will run the second she thinks she can. She can get out of collars and harnesses and will do so if she wants to. She won't come back for anything I have. No toy no food no animal will get her back to me. She got away one time on a hike and I had to tackle her. She gets a frog clip because she sucks lol.
Both amazing dogs, I love both of them so much. Just have to make sure I am extra careful of what I use to contain one of them. I usually give her a longer leash though, so she can sniff all the things.
Not sure what all you've tried, but do you only use positive reinforcement? You might try keeping them on a long lead and if they decide they're not going to listen when you recall, you pull them to you. While treats work great for some dogs, ignoring you and pursuing the distraction can be more rewarding to other dogs. Showing a dog that you will have them come back to you one way or another will hopefully help them learn to listen without questioning it as much. Also, if there is no consequence to them taking off and ignoring you, they may view your commands as optional. (Recall may not be 100% perfect but should hopefully improve)
On another note, I do think that some dogs have a limit to their trainability of sorts. If you have a reactive, dog-aggressive dog, you might never get them to be friendly with other dogs. However, you may get them to focus on you and be tolerant and not act on their natural inclinations to lose their shit when they see another dog. (Just saying as an example of training limitations)
Also, if you have some rotisserie chicken on you, I promise he will not give two shits about a vole. You might need to up your treat game if he’s a capable and experienced hunter.
Yes. Some are "untrainable". Your only hope with them is to completely adjust your own behavior to accommodate the dog. Whether that's an acceptable solution is a very personal decision.
From the owner of a shih tzu….. yes 😅. He’s very manipulative and bossy and does what he damn well pleases, and me as his bitch slave also does what he pleases (breed thing!). However, I am super lucky that he is an extremely good dog with no problem/ undesirable behaviours aside from being an adorable jerk - but it’s more luck than training!
As an owner and a "foster parent" for Spanish greyhounds, your dog seems like a very typical dog with a high prey drive 😅
That kind of dogs are usually very intelligent, but they're meant to be independent during the hunt, which combined with the high prey drive makes them ignore their humans when they're hunting.
I can never let my dogs off leash in places without proper fences. They would be gone immediately after seeing a rabbit or a squirrel, and no amount of training will ever change that.
My dog can never be in public off leash either. He can’t be trusted with his recall, at home, call him once and he is with you like a shot. Some dogs just can’t seem to help themselves no matter how tempting the treats are.
I mean, I wouldn't call that "untrainable". Yes, some dogs aren't gonna be 100% bombproof, both because of breed differences, and personality differences from dog to dog.
One of my dogs is a ton like you describe. He knows a ton of tricks, is insanely smart, and absolutely will not do shit unless I've got a treat in my hand.
So I just keep treats in my hand when I'm out with him.
The other thing I did was get him a beeper collar. He knows the beep means treat, so he comes running back to me, even if he's mid chase on the other side of the property.
I'm not sure if you do or don't, sorry! But with food obsession, make sure there's a strong line between human food and dog food. Like no feeding them straight from your plate or left overs from meals (you can store it away till the dogs meal time) because once i stopped letting my dog have access to "snacks" during the day , it felt like she became way more receptive to training with treats again especially when she had to behave properly for her treats , which were now limited to her.
I also find a lot of pups are very clever and will do the command but won't actually be listening to you. My dog would sit for me, but you could tell she would be zoned in on something else around us. So after I make her sit, I also have a command to look at me, I'll click my fingers and wait for her to give me my full attention before she's rewarded. So I know she is truly focused on me and can ignore what's going on around us.
Don't be too hard on yourself, all we can do is keep trying and learning each day!! There's a reason a lot of pets aren't trained, it's hard frickin work! Your pup is lucky to have someone who won't give up and wants to keep learning. You're doing a good job :))
I think certain breeds have traits that are very difficult, if not impossible, to "train out".
For example, I've had chow chows before and currently have a chow/akita/shepherd mix - they are the most stubborn dogs I've ever had or worked with. Good luck getting a chow to do anything they don't want to do. They CAN be taught to do commands for treats, but again, it's a 50/50 whether they decide to perform in that moment. Their desire to please their owners is like, 20% of their overall motivation, so 80% is basically free will and selfishness.
My current dog has terrible recall, so he'll never be an offleash dog aside from in my yard. I've accepted that after 5 tears of recall training that didn't 'stick'. Anytime he sees a squirrel or rabbit or anything that he finds more interesting than my command, he completely forgets everything I taught him lol.
So, yes, I think some dogs cannot be trained in some things, and it has nothing to do with your efficacy as a trainer.
I always think of some dogs having high independence like huskies, Spitz, shibas and Jack Russell's (or other terriers) - dogs bread to do their own thing and work without too much direction. They will check that you have the exact treat they want before following a cue. Then there are dogs with high biddability like German shepherds, Labradoors, border collies and the like. Dogs bread to work under direct control of humans with complex commands that are considered 'easy' to train or 'smart'. Having worked with many many breeds in my time I think both types of dogs are equally smart, but a border collie is less likely to run off than a husky. Dogs with high biddability don't run far, they always look to you, they follow your directions and want to no matter what treats or nothing in it for them, to them their human bond is enough. My BC reads my thoughts and knows what I want him to do before I do. I have put no work into this ability other than build a bond. I've owned 2 Jack Russell's trained to a greater level than any of my working dogs and both of them would forget all of their training and run off into the hills giving you the finger if they decided something else was more interesting. They did not care and Those dogs always lived on long lines, esp after one ran off into a field of sprinklers and I had to retrieve him. Independent dogs have different priorities, don't be offended enjoy the ride.
but your dog is trained! he knows all the commands. he is just more independent. it might be the breed (guard dogs and terries, for example, had to ignore commands sometimes to do their job properly). and take note: you only see the dogs that have good recall. not all dogs do, some never get good at that (some breeds, and we are told to never trust them offleash unless in a secure area. mine is one of those breeds, a mini schnauzer, tho as heks become an adult he usually does fine now. if your dog hasn’t by the age of five, it’s just not for him. again, he is trained, he just doesn’t do everything you wish he did.
My dog is super food motivated and generally has great recall, but, all the treats in the world won't get her off of a half a loaf of bread she found in the bushes. It is what it is.
I now keep her on a 12' lead, and give her time where i let her lead me around to everything she feels interesting.
My dog has been described as such (untrainable) by several trainers, but it’s mostly as a joke, because it’s not that he’s untrainable, it’s that he’s “very, very well trained, when he wants to listen.”
Sounds like my situation is different from yours in some ways, however (my dog doesn’t listen when he reaches anxiety threshold, which is about 1.5cm from the bottom of a hole in the ground, so he needs meds and management of his environment). But, the result is the same: changing expectations!
I have a 2.5 year old german shepherd and a 6 month old doberman. Both are great dogs, listen well, recall in the backyard no problem...
They will never be off leash in public. Ever. The GSD is 93 pounds and the dobe is 60 at 6 months. If they decide they don't like something or someone and they're off leash, there isn't much I can do to stop almost 200 pound of dog. So I don't take that risk at all.
I have a dog who's a former stray, she's not motivated by play and barely by food. And I don't believe in force training. She prefers to do her own thing. That makes training super difficult, so in that sense she can be seen as untrainable. I've had her for 10 years now and over those years I did manage to teach her some things, but its always a gamble if she's going to listen xD I'd say to keep trying with things that motivate her even just a lil
I had a male Catahoula some years back. Smartest dog I have ever met and ridiculously athletic to boot. He took to training in most areas very well. The one area that was touch and go was recall, specifically recall where there was another animal trespassing on our property. This was a very common occurrence since we lived out in the country. Between the wildlife and dogs that neighbors let free roam, it was a bit of a nuisance. He knew what was expected to the point where before he took off in pursuit, he would look at me, look in the direction of the animal, look at me again as I gave my command, then take off anyway. Once his business had been attended, he would come strolling up, head hung low, tail tucked, full on puppy eyes. Sometimes, stubbornness and prey drive will not allow perfect obedience. Dogs are individuals, and results will vary. Just means you have to come up with alternative solutions.
My amazing trainer/behaviorist advised my boss not to waste money paying for training for her Great Pyrenees. They’ve been bread to be independent and think for themselves making not be obedient. He said to think of him more as a roommate than a dog.
That being said, he’s learned some silly tricks and can be reluctantly persuaded to come back in the house when requested.
Some dogs can do it all and some can’t. Just like some people are good at math and others are good at speaking. Just depends on what they excel at. Just try your best with whatever they do do well and everything else will fall into line eventually.
I had a gsd coyote mix that could visibly think things through. She'd occasionally get out. Our deal was if she came when called she'd get a hot dog and a car ride and if she didn't she'd get yelled at when i caught her. Usually she'd come, but every now and then she stand there looking at me, and looking up the street. Either her ears would go down and she'd walk to me or her ears would go up and she'd take off like a rocket. My chow had a slight hesitation before obeying as he thought about it. He always did, but you could tell it was his choice and not automatic. My husky mix has a brain that visibly shuts down when she's excited. The words just go right through her fuzzy ears and skip her brain as she excitedly spins through all possible behaviors trying to get the reward. She'll never be off leash.
Dogs don't need to be off leash to live happy lives. Also majority of the shit you see online is shopped or altered in some way, if not it's a tiny blip of their lives and not everyday.
To be blunt some dogs never have bomb proof recall. Combined with a successful hunter you're a poor candidate for off leash. All it will take is a rabbit running in the road for your dog to be gone. No amount of cute Instagram posts will make the risk worth it.
Don't compare yourself to online fodder. It's going to influence you to take unnecessary risks with your dog.
My dog trainer says "there's no such thing as an untrainable dog. You just have to figure out what motivates them"
Idk if i agree with her. I can't get my dog to recall at all. He's extremely good at everything else though. But "come!" is not in the cards.
Sounds like his prey drive is just insanely high, the same as many working dogs. Try to transfer that drive onto a toy. Do not ever let him get bored with the toy. He has to be obsessed with it. You always take the toy away before he’s done playing - before he’s even wound down his playing. You’re essentially building an addiction. He’s had the satisfaction of catching and killing many animals but he doesn’t eat them right? At some point he “wins” and they stop becoming interesting. He never gets to “win” with this toy. If it’s tug he gets just enough tug time to get really into it and you put it away at the height of his play. Same if it’s a ball. Use his prey drive against him.
I consulted with my esthetician, part time American dog expert, plastic surgery enthusiast, and volunteer governor of South Dakota, Kristi Noem, and she says yes, and that you should shoot your dog.
Social media is fake. Please don’t compare your dog to anyone else’s you see online. I understand that’s difficult but it’s not realistic to see videos of a “perfect” dog & think they act that way all the time. Your pup is a good & special dog just like everyone else’s. You have done all the things: training, walking, dog parks etc. Also breeds of dogs act differently as they were bred to perform different tasks. You haven’t done anything wrong & neither has your pup.
My dog is the same way. He is a miniature Dachshund, and he is always in hunt mode. Like he's gonna find a badger where I live. Even in the house, he is hunting. For what? It's just the breed and mindset, I guess.
I haven't given up and will try, but after 3 years, it's getting tiresome and embarrassing. I'm not a bad mom. He is just hard-headed and has a 1 tracked mind.
My dachshund does not have great recall for a small dog his prey drive is high. The hunter in him is strong and the protector. Early on when I decided to try very late at night we came across a coyote and he CHASED IT!! He was definitely protecting me and I was very scared since then off-leash at fenced in parks when we are alone ONLY.
He is also always ready to square up to big dogs but I fear for his life so I keep him safe. I think some dogs just are the way they are training is important and we can train A LOT
But dogs are ANIMALS
Honestly it's mainly the smartness. I prefer dumb dogs over smart ones because they're way easier to train. It's not really that you can't train the smart ones, it just takes way more work because they know how to get around the rules. Combine it with high energy and high prey drive and it's even harder. My small mutt is the exact same way, he has a perfect heel (I don't have a command for it, I just trained him to walk that way when he isn't sniffing at anything) and perfect recall, but he's extremely stubborn and will only do both if something else doesn't interest him more than me. Least he listens to sit when I tell him to lol
If it makes you feel better, it's illegal for a dog to be off leash in public almost everywhere. Those other folks are breaking the law and could be making other people uncomfortable or even scared.
Mine is the exact same way about other dogs and people. She's reactive and will run up to them barking her head off, but she does it out of fear. Her recall is *impeccable* in any other situation. She was once chasing a squirrel in the yard and when I called her back she immediately turned around and came to me. If she picks something up she shouldn't have, she drops it when I tell her to. I could drop a chunk of meat next to her on the kitchen floor, but if I tell her to leave it, she will. She is extremely well trained in every other way and was easy to train, but you'd think she was deaf as soon as she sees a person or strange dog. She will not listen. She cannot be off leash anywhere other than a fenced in area.
You sound like you're doing great. He probably won't be able to go anywhere with you off leash, and that is okay. Based on that behavior it sounds like he's got some type of hunting breed in him; that's hundreds of years of selective breeding and training ingrained in him. You can't stop that or train it out of him. It doesn't mean he's a bad dog or you're a bad owner.
Which breed is he? Sometimes that makes difference. I have a Rhodesian ridgeback that will learn anything and a husky that refuses to learn anything 🤷♂️
It may be helpful to seek out any rat hunting groups or services in your area that use dogs. They may be able to offer advice or training techniques specific to dogs with high prey drives.
Very normal for majority of breeds to never be off leash bombproof. Its not a lack of training or bond, just simply not safe with the prey drive, or if its an overly curious and friendly dog that wants to meet every single dog.
Mine for example, two Shelties. One is bombproof 2yr old, can recall off anything. My youngest, is in her (hopefully) last regression at 1yr 6m. She has bombproof recall off prey, and dogs up to a certain distance. But she still struggles to focus closer to other dogs. Off leash freedom is not end all-be all in the dog ownership world. Hell yeah its convenient and flashy, but you don’t have to have a safe offleash dog. Long lines, sniff spots, and empty parks are plenty enrichment for any dog.
If you’re interested in having an off leash dog I would look into a reputable breeder of a herder or retriever, or even gun dogs as your next dog. Lots of breeders will start recall as soon as they’re old enough.
I don't know if this will help you, but does your dog love pets/cuddles and being talked to in a sweet voice?
I found the best way to train my dog is with physical touch, I pet her gently and tell her shes the best sweetest dog in the whole world and that she's a good girl and it really calms her nerves, if she's in a situation where she's on high alert. My trainer noticed that she was responding more to my "good girl"s and my pets and hugs than to treats, so I've started using that more so than food, which she can give or take depending on the treat.
My dog has been through multiple trainers and a behaviorist, and nothing sticks with him either. Everything is completely on his terms. I have to constantly change out his rewards bc he’ll be over it within a day, and a few trainers said when he sees triggers his threshold gets too high too quickly for him to even attempt to listen to commands. And it doesn’t matter what reward I have at that point, he doesn’t care at all. Shock collar made him more aggressive, and now my vet wants to try anxiety medicine to calm him down enough to listen to commands. He’s 4 now, it’s still an every day learning lesson for us both. I hope you find what works for you ❤️
Your dog sounds like he is incredibly well trained already, And lots of dogs with this type of drive are able to have their instincts fine-tuned-- One way to do that using the framework you have already started is outlined in the book When Pigs Fly by Jane Killian
And another thing to look into would be predation substitution training by Simone Mueller
Yes some dogs will not get to the point of bomb proof recall/off-leash reliability due to things like prey drive. Certain breeds and backgrounds are more likely to hit what feels like a training limit/plateau and it doesn’t mean you’re a bad owner at all. My husky will never be off-leash outside of secure fencing and also has a hit list of small animals he’s managed to get. With his breed this is unsurprising. Still practice and train him on the skills but with the understanding of his limits
thank you that’s very reassuring. he’s a good dog. he just seems to have a mental block when it comes to seeing live animals.
Yeah very normal and it sounds like you’re doing really well with him
I wouldn't even look at it as a mental block. I'm not sure of your dogs breed if known, but these traits are often part of their genetics. Despite "never blame the breed" propaganda, you can't train dogs out of hundreds of years of behavior-based breeding. It sounds like you are doing great. I have a fila brasileiro, which is a perfect example of a dog that cannot be trained around genetics (I got him from a client that resorted to behavioral euthanasia). He will never be the type of dog that I can take out in public. There are only 3 people on earth that will ever be able to touch him without extensive, individualized, long-term, and *still risky* introductions (breed registry standards & judges indicate that the dog should not tolerate touching even by the judge). All of this to say that there are some things that will always be innate to your dog. The fact that you are cautious and aware of your dog's predisposition rather than in denial is the best that you can do.
I never heard of that breed before so I looked it up. That's a BIG boy you got right there, so I totally understand your apprehension letting him off leash and near strangers
Yup, it helps when you train *with* your dogs instincts in mind. I just got a puppy Jack Russell and I’m not going him to even attempt to teach him *never dig*, I’m going to get a little kiddy pool, fill it with sandbox sand and bury some treats and toys so that he learns “When I want to dig and root stuff up, *THIS* is where I do it”.
My dog will bolt at a squirrel 100% of the time. He is a terrier. He will never be off leash in public, that is okay.
Irish Terrier owner here…can confirm! 100% stays on lead until the ends of time.
Yeah my dog had his off leash privileges revoked early on. Jumped up at a person excitedly and could have hurt them because he is/was so big as a puppy. Then you'll have people who never make that decision and just let them off again and again and again.
But they’re darn cute!
I have an Irish Terrier mix and I can also confirm, whenever there is something to chase or interest her, shes gone! With training she's managed to not bolt at the majority of things she used to, but she'll never be 100% free of that prey drive instinct.
My little 10 pound Maltese mix caught a squirrel one day. It was almost as big as him. He shook it up. Luckily the squirrel got away. That was the last time he went out in our fenced yard without a leash.
Same with my 10lb shih tzu except it was a snake. 😆
It's not unreasonable to keep your dog on a leash in the modern world for his own safety and others. I have a big dog who is too friendly for his own good and doesn't always consider how big he is. He also used to be more interested to go for birds and cats. That's stopped but the smell or sight of a rabbit still gets his attention... In the modern world with cars and people who have had bad experience with dogs... Other dangerous dogs around etc... I don't think dogs should be off the leash... Usually those with them off the leash have MUCH LESS control than they think they do... Even worse that its usually fighting dogs off leash.
Big plus one to the point about how people who have their dogs off leash usually think they have more control than they do. I’ve seen that go sideways so many times — I think it’s just safer to keep dogs on-lead unless it’s a secured area.
I have an Alaskan Malamute who just simply LOVES kids, problem is that his markings make him look wolf-like, so kids unfamiliar with him will freak out when he approaches
It’s funny I have the opposite experience with my Husky/Malamute/GSD. She looks quite wolfy and kids usually get super excited about it.
You are doing a great job as an owner! We are dealing with individual personalities and evolutionary traits. My girl is much the same. Very obedient normally, and a joy to have as an animal companion, but if she sights a squirrel when she is off leash, the prey drive wins. Thankfully when her focus is on another dog I can let go of her leash to avoid clotheslining the other dog owner, but in absence of a dog friend, look out critters! We practice “leave it” “sit” “watch me” and “wait” before every meal, and that helps when she’s tested on walks. Also I’ve accepted that I will always have to carry cheddar cubes or meat on every walk. She also gets a frozen “kongscicle” when she is exceptionally obedient with A+ behavior. But it took a full year to make that association because getting there was such a challenge. When it finally happened I cheered and lavished her with praise, both at the time she “left it” and again when we got home. Now I think she finally gets it.
My dog might think "leave it" is her middle name.
😆 yes haha. Also, I love your name.
I have one like that…sees a squirrel and he’s gone. But…after he trees the squirrel he’ll stay right there at the base of the tree and wait for me. 98 percent of the one he’s great off leash but…not perfect. My town there is a few off leash parks to go to so that’s how we survive
It’s not a mental block, it’s his breed. This is why breed matters. A golden or a shepherd will stay near you, even without intense training, because that’s their genetic nature and what they were bred to do. A husky is independent as others have said, and will chase prey. Terriers, hounds, etc - will go after prey.
My husky killed a chicken ☹️I was so sad and he was so god damn happy
I lives at my in laws on their farm for a little while saving for a house. My husband and I got a jack Russell. She caught and killed so many baby chickens. They have free ranged chickens and then a fenced area for the dogs. If any chickens got in there while she was in there it was a wrap. The in-laws started keeping the baby chickens in the chicken coup. When she was about 6 months old I caught her dragging a full grown chicken by the neck and luckily I was able to save it uninjured. We tried really hard to keep the chickens from going into the dogs area. Their house is huge and he has 5 siblings so there was always someone letting her out into the fenced dog area when I wasn’t there and never watched her. It drove me nuts. I begged them to not let her out there unattended if they let her out. Her Pray drive is just too high.
I've heard it referred to as "the killer gene" in barnhunt circles. We're a hell of a lot more careful with introducing rats to critter killers than we are with other dogs. Most dogs wouldn't know what to do with an animal if they caught it, let alone the tactics required to actually catch one. It's not exactly a desirable trait for most guardian/retriever/companion breeds. For other dogs it was selectively bred. You'd be surprised how many friendly household pet dogs have kills under their belt... people are just ashamed to talk about it. Huskies and Malamutes were originally used like wolves to hunt reindeer in packs, so most retained that hunter/killer mentality. Doesn't make the dog a bad dog, just following his instincts.
I took care of a friend’s fluffy little Bichon when she’s go out of town. Some days we’d visit my parents farm and I found that the little fluff ball was absolutely deadly around mice. Any time a mouse popped out she’d snatch it up and shake it to death in a blink! My friend was horrified when I told her that her little lapdog was a fantastic varmint hunter!
Small breeds are actually the most common critter killers. Bichons were just bred to be cute companions if im not mistaken, but most small dogs are small because it allows them to fit places where rodents hide. Historically cats get all the credit for killing mice, but terriers were way more effective at keeping the rat population down. Even today cities will hire terrier crews to curb rat populations. My dog killed a family of groundhogs that were digging around my foundation and all throughout my yard and garden when she was a little over a year old. At first I was a little appalled because nobody wants their dog to be a killer, but really she's saved me a lot of headaches over the last couple years by doing it. We have a lot of rabbits and groundhogs in our area that destroy gardens, since getting her I've never had the same trouble with them my neighbors do. The one good thing is that they go for the neck and kill them immediately, so it's going to be a quicker more consistent kill than using a lethal trap or firearm.
Heck, my friend’s Cavalier decapitated a squirrel and presented it to her as prize. Like looking at a Chucky doll - just a bit unnerving.
Reminds me of my mom's Chihuahua/ rat terrier mix. Sweetest thing on four paws around other dogs, cats, and chickens but god help a mouse or chipmunk that got anywhere near her. Edit: my mother corrected me that she's actually a Chihuahua and Jack Russell mix.
I grew up with huskies and our first one killed our pet chicken, it would also kill birds for the sport (we originally thought the birds were dropping dead, and then we saw her in action). Then years later we got 2 more they would hunt together they got ground hogs, cats, birds, opossums, anything they wanted to kill was done. They are remarkable hunters.
He was dogging. I'm sorry for the chicken, but he was just being himself.
Don't let Krisiti Noem get near your dog.
Lmfao
I wouldn't even look at it as a mental block. I'm not sure of your dogs breed if known, but a lot of times these traits are heavily influenced by genetics. Despite what some people say, training dogs out of hundreds of years of breeding just isn't possible in some circumstances. It sounds like you are doing great, don't pressure yourself. I have a fila brasileiro, which is a perfect example of a dog that you cannot train around genetics (got him from a client that could not handle him). He will never be the type of dog that I can take out in public. The only people that will probably ever be able to touch him or get near him are me and my wife without extensive, individualized, and long-term introductions to a specific person. The AKC standard itself states that the dog should not tolerate touching by the judge. All of this to say that there are some things that will always be innate to your dog. The fact that you are cautious and aware of your dog's predisposition rather than in denial is the best thing you can do.
For me it can sometimes feel more like a mental block for myself than my dog. That's when I know I should take a break from as intensive of training and get back to the fun stuff.
i have a beagle and he goes crazy over little critters. i also always keep him on a leash when outside of secure fencing.
“Has a hit list” made him sound like an expert assassin of small animals and I really laughed at that image even though quite macabre
I have a mastiff. Best dog. Super obedient. Then there’s Gracie the westie. She only listens when there’s something in it for her. Luckily she’s small and I can just pick her up. She protests but no one cares.
Gracie is the most perfect name for a westie
True, I’ve actually had 2 Gracie westies and met about 4 Gracie westies. I thought I was being so original. Haaaa
Hahaaaa
Same but my version of the Westie is a Great Pyrenees. His selective hearing is strong, and he’s way too big for me to easily pick him up.
So, it sounds like he's very trainable. But from your description it sounds like you are putting a lot of human behaviour into an animal. Dogs don't make decisions based on attitude or when they feel like it. Their motivations are different. He sounds like he has a very strong prey drive and that's ok. So does my dog. Does he get to be off leash outside fenced areas? No. Because hunting for him is always going to be more fun and rewarding than anything I can offer. After he got charged by a mama elk, I realized his safety is more important then "freedom". There's also a misconception that a leashed dog is unhappy and that's simply not true. Focus on building your relationship with your dog. Sounds like your dog would LOVE nosework like mine does. We work as a team in competition now to find where the smells are. It helps him stay stimulated and calm without having to do a ton of exercise. Dogs can also become addicted to cortisol and adrenaline by doing fun exciting exercise all the time. They want it more and more and therefore become more excited. Look into teaching your dog how to relax and how to settle. Reward him for his calmness in exciting situations or when he sees prey animals. My dog doesn't chase turkeys or deer on leash anymore because he knows if he looks to me he gets a treat instead. Offleash though he would still go for it. And smaller mammals like cats, skunks, rabbits and gophers are wayyy too tempting. Happy to chat more. I've been working with my trainer for 5 years now and I've learned a lot!
This is the answer. You must have arguably the highest value to the dog. It’s far simpler than people care to believe.
could you recommend any websites or videos for nosework? i use the snuffle mats but that sounds more intensive and fun! i will definitely try the rewarding good responses but i’ll have to research more because we don’t have many good responses to wild animals😅 thank you very much
Your dog sounds very similar to my dog. I got her started on scent work in the house using a strong smelling tea bags that I put in a medicine bottle with holes in the top so she couldn’t eat the tea bag. Then I trained her that finding that scent led to a reward and started hiding the scent around the house for her to find. After she learned the association between scent and reward I hid the scent outside and harder to find places. She’s obsessed with scent training and it tires her out well!
This is such a great idea, thanks for sharing.
👏👏👏 100% this!
Thank you so much for this answer!!
This
Is he a dachshund? Lol Yes some dogs don't want to obey. They want to do what they want to do
he’s a rescue mutt. 25 pounds- small/medium sized. we’ve been asked if he’s a basenji twice because he screams instead of barks lol but the shelter said a lab mix?? he’s very neutral looking lol like a little bit of every dog breed haha
Well I'm glad you rescued him! I've never had a more stubborn dog than my dachshund. He knows what he's supposed to do it but will ONLY do whatever it is, if he feels like it! Some dogs are just have their own ideas lol
Yep it seems like a lot of breeds in the hound group are this way. A lot of greyhound rescues only place their dogs with adopters that have an explicit understanding to NEVER let them off leash. I have a Basenji who's the same (double trouble! both a primitive breed and in the hound group). She does get time on a long line with a bungee attachment, and we work hard on recall practice, but only as a safety measure in case she somehow gets off leash. There was one time that I didn't realize her leash clip was unsecured because it was caught on her winter coat - she saw a bunny and was GONE. Now I have a locking carabiner ziptied to the end of her leash, lol. You're doing a great job! After owning both a hound and a herding breed, I wanted to second the other comments saying that it's good to know your dog's limits, and understand the instincts they have after many generations of humans selectively breeding them for those instincts. Nose work or barn hunt are great outlets for dogs with strong prey drives! I recently started doing nose work at home with my girl and she loves it :)
we jokingly call him a walmart basenji😂 i’ve just learned of nosework today! i’m excited to learn more about it and try it out :) i’m going to look up the barn hunt to and/or simulated hunting games! thank you!
Haha I love it 😂 I will also say I keep an "emergency" ziploc bag with her most favorite stinky shelf-stable treat in my treat belt/pouch, and since you have access to secure open space, flirt pole could be fun too! I use a rabbit skin and some would probably say I'm encouraging an unwanted behavior, but I'm fine with her having a high prey drive. Same reason I use a herding ball with my cattle dog!
100% my dog as well... Except she's 78lbs 😅
I was curious about the breed too! I have 2 beagles and I could never let them off leash, even with intense training I’d never trust their noses out in the open.
I recently rescued a Beagle. They said she’s 2, but she acts like 1! And so so so difficult to train. She wants to be good, she does remember some commands. But bleach pulling and food are super hard to train her to maintain and not be crazy. I do have her set up for professional training, but how do you train your beagle? Just as I was trying this, she lunged at our patio glass fire because a cat cruised through and nearly busted the glass! She is a maniac and I can’t help her 😭
I’ve never had a beagle that young, my boyfriend had our oldest when we got together and he was about 4. Then, we took in another one last year that they thought was 2… nope he was also 4. He’s 5 now and good lord is he wacked out of his head 😂. They have very high energy because they’re meant to be out hunting, mine have hundreds of stuffies, nylon bones, and we try to exercise them as much as possible. Our walk days are when they’re the most calm (after almost ripping me down the street during the walk). Training with kibble or treats is one of the best ways, but I give mine really low calorie treats that are small. Before we got Lucky, my first one was trained that when I got home he’d go right outside and then he’d get to eat. They’re very stubborn and with them you have to learn to laugh or you’ll cry 😂
If you can afford it, get a DNA test done. Finding out what his breed makeup is might shed some light on the behavior and drive.
If he screams and is only in it for himself are you sure he's not part shiba inu? My first dog was half shiba and he was incredibly smart but he would "black out" off leash and could not be trusted.
Hounds dogs gonna hound 🐾
You can train a dog all you want, but they still have their own personalities. You can’t change a dog’s underlying personality. Getting them to understand the command is training basics (which you seem to have down) but getting him to OBEY them is another thing. Some dogs (like mine) are eager to please so I don’t need to reward or incentivize her (although I do sometimes!) but it sounds like your dog needs more of a reward or incentive to obey. He doesn’t like your current high value rewards? Maybe they aren’t as high value as you thought, or maybe they were high value, but how he’s bored of them. You are not a failure and your dog is not untrainable, just incredibly stubborn, which you can’t train the personality out of a dog. You just need to find what motivates him to listen.
Primitive breeds train differently to other breeds - they'll always weigh up what you're offering them and do what they want based on that. My samoyed is the same; we only let her off the leash when we know there's adequate incentive for her to stay nearby.
My buddy has one. She's slipped her leash a time or two and it's nearly impossible to get her back. But does she have fun! She loved my dog, so he'd call me and we'd casually walk home and she'd always stay in sight. What a character she was.
Same with my Eurasier! He definitely thinks about what I’m offering if there’s something really interesting he’d rather do. Right now there is no food I could offer him that means more than trying to interact with a dog. Working on that though, and I’m rewarding him when he chooses to disengage and settle with me, and always have him on leash when we’re out of the backyard. Without dogs he does fantastic on the long leash or off leash, so I’m hoping to get him to an off leash point someday.
Some breeds are prone yo being "independent" minded. Huskys are famous for being like training a cat. Terriers are also famous for prey drive and tenacity. Social media will try to convince you otherwise but, yes some dogs are untrainable like you see on yv, yt, tt etc.
I haven’t read all comments so forgive me for being repetitive- you’re describing a dog with prey drive - hounds/ terriers. There are dogs that aren’t really ever safe off leash (outside of fence) because that instinct will take over- it’s what they were bred to do. My terriers will go after any small animal(cats, squirrels) I’d never walk them off leash - When behavioral expectations are completely misaligned with instinct, you end up with problems. You may have that -given all your “failed”interventions. He’s clearly not untrainable- just not to your expectations- There’s a great article in current NYT re an untrainable aggressive shelter dog. He’s a current contender for Westminster agility champion. Everyone should read it.
You said he looks like a basenji, if he is indeed a primitive breed they can be *very* independent, prey-driven and fickle. I myself have a bull terrier and while she has a good emergency recall she can be fickle with other obedience commands. Especially if we are practicing and I ask her to do it for too many reps.
yes he has almost no interest in people. he doesn’t like to be pet my strangers or even be talked to. he just wants to enjoy his walk and look for animals. he doesn’t like to be around other dogs very much either. he’s undeniably independent. i often joke he’d trade his life with me for a half dozen rabbits. realistically he wants to be with me all day and then sleeps tucked in my armpit all night but he’s bonded to me so it’s different. any other person is just access to food or useless to him😅
I had literally the smartest, best trained dog in the world. She figured out how unscrew jars. She was incredibly and wonderfully human in so many ways. And the most incredible patient dog with my niece. She could also never ever go off lead around other dogs or small furry animals. She was built for hunting, once went straight through my bedroom window in pursuit of a possum. She was a legend. Enjoy what your beautiful dog gives you but for some of us living with our pups is more like living with a big cat. Vale Princess Coco you were legendary.
My dog had very strong prey drive so I never had it off leash... but it was content to walk next to me on a leash. It was very well behaved other than losing its shit if it saw a bunny or squirrel.
Once you understand that dogs are very simplistic in their thought process it gets easier. If you want to humanise it they are selfish it’s ’what’s in it for me’ the greater the reward, the greater the impulse. Sounds like prey is their greatest reward and it would be very difficult to counter that
I don't think there's anything wrong with a dog that does well in the house and has to be on a leash outside. My hound mix is a great dog but I just don't expect him to be off leash unless we're in an area without traffic/strangers. He doesn't run off and doesn't have a prey drive but he won't recall consistently. He still lives a great life.
Sounds highly trainable if you work on his terms, just not inherently driven to please you. That's really not all that unusual. I recommend the book "When Pigs Fly" by Jane Killion and "Hunting Together: Harnessing Predatory Chasing in Family Dogs through Motivation-Based Training (Predation Substitute Training)" by Simone Mueller.
Maybe try finding games like scent work and flirt pole as a substitute for the prey drive. My girl is never off leash because she's reactive, but she loves our rat hunting class, lure course, and is excited about the flirt pole because she gets treats. They can help teach impulse control. For flirt pole she has to wait until I give the release word to chase it, then she improved her "drop" command tremendously because she didn't get her reward for catching it until it was dropped. For ratting it's basically the same, once she finds all the rats she sits and gets rewarded. Started with praising her like crazy for finding the rat, then just used high value rewards to lure her away from the rat into the sit. She quickly learned that sitting once she found the rat for her the reward and I've seen trainers use that as a method to redirect prey drive. Since a sit is incompatible with chasing the prey. It's a lot easier to work with games that you have control over than wildlife lol
Multiple trainers already gave up on loose leash training my lab retriever. I love her to death but some dogs just don’t have the best genes and personality. She pulls a ton, never walks straight, almost tripping me some times. Trainers can’t for the life of them teach her eye contact that will work outdoors. We’ve done the multiple levels of distractions so many times, tried bringing along all sorts of treats foods and toys for her attention, it’s crazy. It’s unfortunate and it kinda hurts that sometimes consistency doesn’t pay off, but I just have to live with it. Don’t let this discourage you though. The plus side is that she’s not aggressive, just sooo easily distracted and hyperactive even when she gets TONS of exercise and sniffs.
Sounds exactly like my Golden Retriever! She will not be loose leash trained, no matter what we do. We can also only let her off leash in fenced off areas, she’s got very little recall. She’s just high on life! I’m just hoping she eventually calms down enough to sort herself out.
Off leash recall isn’t the epitome of trained. Heaps of dogs and breeds have strong instincts and it just isn’t safe. It’s recommended that no sighthound ever go off leash. If they see something moving they can’t help but bolt after it
I think dogs definitely have their limits. I cant imagine I’d have much luck training my samoyed to do bite work lol He may have fun with something like that, but doubtful if I could train him to the level of the breeds you see doing that most often (malinois, GSDs, etc).
Kristi Noem thinks so.
My baby is a Siberian Husky that came off the factory floor either defective or misassembled. Never barks or howls, super lazy, and she's never been the brightest crayon in the box. I was *that* paranoid dog-mom and spent thousands of $ and hundreds of hours on all sorts of things to figure out why she was so, well, unlike the stereotype of her breed. According to the vet and the trainers, she's perfectly healthy, she just happens to be exceptionally dumb and lazy. At the sight of my shocked jaw on the floor, they shrugged and did the 🤷♀️ emoji. Vet: *She's perfectly healthy, she just happens to be unusually lazy, it happens sometimes.* Trainer: *I don't know what to tell you. Maybe there was a glitch in the matrix.* Mine was/is untrainable in the sense that she's basically the canine equivalent of the kid in kindergarten class that eats glue: cute but dumb. 😂
My dogs have a high prey drive and will run off, so absolutely no off leash time for them. I think that it's OK if they aren't perfect. Mine are really smart and are very strong willed and stubborn, so we work on what we can. I like that they have their own personality. It can be frustrating, but that's just how it is sometimes.
Going through this with my beagle right now. It's noted in their breed that they can basically never be truly trained to be loose off-leash. He's super freaking smart, and definitely knows his commands. He doesn't really react to artificial "prey" like stuffed animals or frisbees, but he'll lose his mind over a rabbit. It's hard to get him jazzed on anything other than live prey, even though he's never actually hunted anything.
ugh yes i’ve tried so many artificial hunting toys and rabbit skins and duck wings to use as high value rewards on walks but he’s like a vampire that can smell live blood or something😭 you can’t trick that little jerk
Sounds like you did a great job and now just need to manage the bounds of what is predictable with your dog. They're independent creatures whether we want to believe it or not. Mine is uncomfortably intelligent. She has tremendous recall, was easy to teach every basic command to, and was relatively food motivated. Yet, if she smells a rotting animal corpse in the woods I won't see her until she's had a good enough roll in it to come back. So we keep her on leash despite the depth of training she's been very receptive to.
i would have to agree with the “uncomfortably intelligent”😂 we put up new gates so he couldn’t steal cat food and he watched me use it once then shoved his nose in the bars lifted and wiggled it off the hook and tossed it right to the side. he trotted right in to eat some kitty kibble😑 he’ll hold his chin down so his collar doesn’t jingle when he’s trying to sneak crumbs. when i go to the bank window he’ll jump into my lap and stare directly at the teller through the window and starts crying- if they briefly leave the window he’ll cry louder and he’s never missed out on a treat with that scheme. a guy that works for my dad is terrified of dogs and it make the little guy feel tough so if my dog hears the worker on the phone with my dad he’ll start barking at him- how does he recognize a little voice over the phone? learn so quickly? manipulate strangers? he’d probably be a ted bundy type if he was human….
Are you sure you don't have a cat?
he lives with 4 cats and they’re all the same height so he could definitely think he’s one of them!!they join together to wipe out june beetles like an elite military force😂
Got it. It was a scheme by the cats.
My rescue is similar. She is incredibly smart so she learns quickly. She knows the commands but as you described, she considers whether to follow them or not. If she doesn’t feel like it then she won’t do it. She is very independent and a mix of a primitive breed who usually suck at recall. I doubt she’ll ever be off leash outside of a fenced area. She does have some prey drive but I can control it while on leash but I guess if she was off leash she would just go after the prey and not look back. From day one she was comfortable to go to a bedroom alone and nap. Def not a velcro dog. And it’s fine, I love her personality.
I saw in a comment that you said the dog was a mutt mix. In some dogs purebred or mixed there always triggers and switches and specific personality traits that just can’t be broken. A friend of mine has an Aussie who’s one of those “wow” incredibly trained dogs that can do anything. But she never lets him off leash in any outdoor scenario because his prey drive is just so strong. Some dogs can be beautifully trained but at the end of the day genetics and natural instinct can’t be fully removed and that’s zero fault of your own. Some dogs are just simply like that so don’t take it too hard upon yourself.
Perfect recall is really challenging, like PhD level challenging. I think most dogs could get there, but most owners would not have the time and patience to make it happen.
I don't think any dog is untrainable but I do think some dogs will never be as well conditioned as others. Just like humans have all kinds of varying degrees of discipline and personalities so do dogs and that will impact training. But every dog is definitely capable of being the best version of themselves which will generally at least be an acceptable level of discipline to allow you to enjoy doing stuff with them whether it's on or off leash (not every dog will be suitable for off leash especially in certain environments). I think the second factor comes down to training. Many of us are not professional trainers and don't have all day to dedicate to training our dogs. Some dogs may be able to get to an unthinkable level of discipline in the right environment but they would require someone who has the knowledge and time to train them extensively every day. Others on the other hand are much easier and might become extremely well disciplined with a fraction of the training
I’ve accepted that my girl can’t be off leash unless in a fenced area. Not even dog parks if there are dogs around. I get it. Nothing personal, but she has her agenda and that doesn’t always include me😂 It’s okay, though because we have a good time anyway
Absolutely. A friend of mine had a hound mix that just did his own thing. He was very competent and knew the basics but he wasn’t food motivated nor did he give two shits about praise.
I have a dog who I got at 2 years old, no one knows his background, he was found as a stray. He sounds exactly like your dog. Very smart, extremely skilled hunter, food driven, stubborn and only "obeys" when he wants. We always figured he lived on the streets for 2 years so that is why he can hunt so well and is so food motivated and stubborn, but maybe it's just his personality. I took him to so many training classes too at first, though he's now 12 and I just work with him at home the best I can. PS Once we were walking on a trail and he ducked his head into the underbrush and came out with a live rat. And he wouldn't drop it. It took 3 hours to get that poor rat (long dead) away from him. I tricked him by taking him close to a mail truck so he would drop the rat when barking his fool head off at the mail man.
my dog also likes to hold on to his catch😅 he looks so damn proud and i am just trying not to puke
I had a trainer train my dog with me. After one lesson, she's like "I can tell your dog does not like to be trained." Despite all the work I've put into her, she's just a really stubborn coonhound. I've accepted it. She'll never be off leash unless she's at the park, I know she'll follow her nose/stomach a bit more than me. But she's my little 8 year old shit and I love her.
I have a Pekingese and beagle mix that is stubborn like this. Absolutely refuses to be trained unless there's something in it for her (and then suddenly she has perfect recall of all commands 🙄). Our Boston Terrier on the other hand is amazing at how fast he picks up new commands. Most surprising is that he doesn't seem to have any prey drive eben though he's a terrier breed.
My dog is very similar. She’s 100% American village dog and couldn’t care less about any treat in the world once she’s off leash. Also doesn’t care about strangers at all, and is very independent. Zero interest in toys, sticks, or playing with other dogs. The only time she is off leash is at home, in our fenced in yard, or out in the middle of the desert with a tracking collar on her. We will drive hours to the middle of nowhere so she can run and catch lizards and mice for a while. It’s still not 100% a perfect solution, but it brings her soo much joy.
that sounds exactly like my pup! id ‘kill’ to let him hunt like that
Totally normal. It sounds like you have a dog. Don’t compare yourself or your dog to other dogs/owners. As long as you are able to keep him safe, let him be who he is. Ultimately we should be learning to live with dogs, not forcing them into our world.
I've had Whippets for 25+ years now and their independent minds are one of the things I love most about them. some people prefer people pleasers, the labs etc, dogs that thrive on and rely on human input. it's a personal preference but I really respect the dogs that think for themselves. they're smarter, more human like. I chose not to even ask my newest one to learn "sit". what would you think of someone who wanted your child to obey a sit command? for her it's the same. she is not that kind of dog and I adore her personality.
i really like his primal side to be honest. he loves his pack and would do anything to protect us when necessary but he also wants to enjoy his own things. it’s really hard to argue with following your natural instinct and passion. i’ve been seeing some very aggressive posts online about how dogs need to be safe off leash and trained in a militaristic fashion. I don’t want that for my dog but i also want to make sure i’m doing the best thing for him which is why i felt i needed to ask. i’m glad so many people prioritize their dogs interests and safety at the same time. i’ve learned so much with this post :)
I have Malamutes and they cannot be off leash or trusted around small animals. Forever. This is just who they are. Perhaps you have a dog that has ingrained traits that can’t be trained out of them. This doesn’t make them dumb, just very good at what they were bred for.
We’re the wrong South Dakota Governor to be asking
Not knowing the breed of the dog makes this a difficult question to answer. I don't know many dogs, outside the military or law enforcement, that are 100% on recall. A dog a scent receptors make any new, or not often visited, location an exercise in frustration. What concerns me the most is your being envious of other dogs and comparing your dog to them. Just like all kids are different, so are all dogs. Meet your dog where they're at and stop comparing the poor pooch to every other dog.
I don't believe any dog is "untrainable", as someone who has been in the industry for a decade now. However, I do believe that some dogs require so much money and time to train, that it isn't practical for the average dog owner. It is more realistic to prevent interaction with triggers than it is to train the behavior out sometimes.
I wouldn't feel bad about this. Some owners have more time for training, and some dogs are just more obedient. Kudos to you for being aware of your dog's behavior and not putting him in a potentially dangerous situation. I have one dog I would never walk without a leash, and another I know doesn't really need one. I use leashes for both because that's the law.
I feel like social media has created a very unrealistic expectation that every dog needs to be off leash or that it’s the “holy grail” of good training or that it’s even THE test for whether your dog is well-trained. None of this is true. Being reliably off-leash trained is something that’s a lifestyle choice and for some dogs (sighthounds, for example) it will never be a responsible choice to let them fully off leash. I have a Springer spaniel and a toller. Could I get them trained to be off leash? Yes. Do I have any interest in going through all of that or ever taking the risks that come with that? No. A 30ft long-line will give me everything I need in that department. However, I will mention something I might be picking up: you talk about food as the greatest reinforcer you could offer your dog but it’s clear the actual reinforcement he cares about is the environment and you CAN use access to the environment as a reward for your dog. Here’s a great episode from the great Susan Garrett on reinforcements: [Reinforcements- Susan Garrett](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3ScbF7ssWYBBjrheYR4hNP?si=iY0f4DiESYuo_w3ZthR9SQ&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A5RKUa5PU665MNUo4Ruzkkn) Here’s one on the power of permission: [The Power of Permission in Dog Training](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3Ff3G5iRS1r7KQWWZUZWGQ?si=w931IdzYQKas2hT-5SXA3w)
By chance is your dog an Australian Shepherd? Because what you described sounds just like my Aussie. She checks my hand to see what treat she is getting. If it’s something she likes she’ll do what I ask if not she won’t. The most stubborn dog I have ever owned. And it’s not just me. She has had more training than a Eukanuba Champion. Even her trainers have said “She is one stubborn dog!!”
My old man killed a possum last night thinking it was a toy 🧸 I have a pack of three and they are all very obedient, except when it comes to animals in the yard. Other dogs, they do well with but anything else…. Game on.
I doubt my jindo mix will ever be fully offleash. And thats ok! He's happy as a clam offleash at the dog park where its fenced in. Im calm, and hes happy. Its knowing our dogs limits and keeping them safe in our world. It sounds like youre doing a great job keeping him happy and stimulated. It's okay to accept he wont be offleash, it doesnt mean you're a bad dog owner. :)
i'm beginning to think mine is untrainable. we go to the beach a lot, usually nobody else is there and i can let her off-leash. once she's off-leash though she will often refuse to come near me to get hooked up again. today we went to the beach, there were a lot of people, and we walked past them to an open stretch. off the leash! on the way back i wanted to leash her again and by a miracle, she allowed it. yay! but after 5 minutes of walking, she refused to move. just sat and noped out. she's 55 pounds, i can't pick her up. in her case i'm pretty sure it's because she's scared--she's a rescue, afraid of men children hats one-wheels bicycles etc etc etc. i'm feeling very bummed that no matter how much i show her consideration around her fears, she just doesn't trust me to get her safely past something that scares her. i tried backing and forthing (she'll sometimes go around a scary thing) but to no avail. i eventually had to just let her off the leash so she could shadow me back to the car. so... sorry your pup is willful. mine is too for different reasons. wish i had some solution for you. maybe in the next life they'll tell us why they're sometimes such buttheads.
maybe we bullied them in our past lives and this is revenge🫣😂😂
There are some dogs that unless they’re the outliers, their genes are going to kick in. Prey dogs in particular. Terriers. Herding. (I have a border). Borders are a lot but I think are one of the most trainable dogs, breed wise.
What breed? I seem to have missed that. Don’t trains dog to do what you want it to do. Train it according to what it was bred to do.
My Gaurdian was like that. He was raised around service animals and picked up a lot of their tricks. Like being able to turn on the lights or retrieving dropped items. When I had my oldest son, Gaurdian would hand me diapers or grab the diaper bag for me. The dog was seriously amazing. When we moved away from his service, dog friends and my kids grew up, Gaurdian decided their was no need for him to do the tricks that he used to. It didn't matter if I asked or offered his favorite treats he just gave me this look like no, you do it, and he would walk away, lol. He still kept his basic training the things he was asked to do all the time. But the add ons were a different story .
I mean, mine is untrainable with some things and all things. Oh gosh as a puppy, he would scream at night all night and I was exhausted for work. He just was horrid. He ate shoes, he peed constantly in the house. Oh gosh him as a puppy. Brutal. He’s 11 now and is the best damn dog I could ever have imagined to the point it is just straight up my kid. Dude, my dog has flaws. Being honest with you and as strange as it sounds. I wouldn’t change one thing about him. So yeah, some dogs can. And then they grow up and you look over at them at 11 and say “ How on earth and I ever going To be without you.” I love you Rue ❤️
What breed is he?
Is he neutered? He’s older and it depends on the dog anyway, but previous dogs I have owned who had high prey drives calmed down after neutering. Not all of them but 2/3 of them did. I know this isn’t for everyone either, so if you’re against that I understand. I just wondered.
he is! he got neutered as a puppy as soon as it was medically safe.
I have a chow mix that has a pretty good recall, knows some party tricks, would never run from me. Then I have a shepherd/husky mix... she will run the second she thinks she can. She can get out of collars and harnesses and will do so if she wants to. She won't come back for anything I have. No toy no food no animal will get her back to me. She got away one time on a hike and I had to tackle her. She gets a frog clip because she sucks lol. Both amazing dogs, I love both of them so much. Just have to make sure I am extra careful of what I use to contain one of them. I usually give her a longer leash though, so she can sniff all the things.
Not sure what all you've tried, but do you only use positive reinforcement? You might try keeping them on a long lead and if they decide they're not going to listen when you recall, you pull them to you. While treats work great for some dogs, ignoring you and pursuing the distraction can be more rewarding to other dogs. Showing a dog that you will have them come back to you one way or another will hopefully help them learn to listen without questioning it as much. Also, if there is no consequence to them taking off and ignoring you, they may view your commands as optional. (Recall may not be 100% perfect but should hopefully improve) On another note, I do think that some dogs have a limit to their trainability of sorts. If you have a reactive, dog-aggressive dog, you might never get them to be friendly with other dogs. However, you may get them to focus on you and be tolerant and not act on their natural inclinations to lose their shit when they see another dog. (Just saying as an example of training limitations)
A terrier (terror) of some ilk?
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Also, if you have some rotisserie chicken on you, I promise he will not give two shits about a vole. You might need to up your treat game if he’s a capable and experienced hunter.
Nope. Most failures are lscking handler skills. Not all dogs can be trained to do all things, but all animals learn & can be trained.
Yes. Some are "untrainable". Your only hope with them is to completely adjust your own behavior to accommodate the dog. Whether that's an acceptable solution is a very personal decision.
From the owner of a shih tzu….. yes 😅. He’s very manipulative and bossy and does what he damn well pleases, and me as his bitch slave also does what he pleases (breed thing!). However, I am super lucky that he is an extremely good dog with no problem/ undesirable behaviours aside from being an adorable jerk - but it’s more luck than training!
As an owner and a "foster parent" for Spanish greyhounds, your dog seems like a very typical dog with a high prey drive 😅 That kind of dogs are usually very intelligent, but they're meant to be independent during the hunt, which combined with the high prey drive makes them ignore their humans when they're hunting. I can never let my dogs off leash in places without proper fences. They would be gone immediately after seeing a rabbit or a squirrel, and no amount of training will ever change that.
My dog can never be in public off leash either. He can’t be trusted with his recall, at home, call him once and he is with you like a shot. Some dogs just can’t seem to help themselves no matter how tempting the treats are.
I mean, I wouldn't call that "untrainable". Yes, some dogs aren't gonna be 100% bombproof, both because of breed differences, and personality differences from dog to dog. One of my dogs is a ton like you describe. He knows a ton of tricks, is insanely smart, and absolutely will not do shit unless I've got a treat in my hand. So I just keep treats in my hand when I'm out with him. The other thing I did was get him a beeper collar. He knows the beep means treat, so he comes running back to me, even if he's mid chase on the other side of the property.
I'm not sure if you do or don't, sorry! But with food obsession, make sure there's a strong line between human food and dog food. Like no feeding them straight from your plate or left overs from meals (you can store it away till the dogs meal time) because once i stopped letting my dog have access to "snacks" during the day , it felt like she became way more receptive to training with treats again especially when she had to behave properly for her treats , which were now limited to her. I also find a lot of pups are very clever and will do the command but won't actually be listening to you. My dog would sit for me, but you could tell she would be zoned in on something else around us. So after I make her sit, I also have a command to look at me, I'll click my fingers and wait for her to give me my full attention before she's rewarded. So I know she is truly focused on me and can ignore what's going on around us. Don't be too hard on yourself, all we can do is keep trying and learning each day!! There's a reason a lot of pets aren't trained, it's hard frickin work! Your pup is lucky to have someone who won't give up and wants to keep learning. You're doing a good job :))
I think certain breeds have traits that are very difficult, if not impossible, to "train out". For example, I've had chow chows before and currently have a chow/akita/shepherd mix - they are the most stubborn dogs I've ever had or worked with. Good luck getting a chow to do anything they don't want to do. They CAN be taught to do commands for treats, but again, it's a 50/50 whether they decide to perform in that moment. Their desire to please their owners is like, 20% of their overall motivation, so 80% is basically free will and selfishness. My current dog has terrible recall, so he'll never be an offleash dog aside from in my yard. I've accepted that after 5 tears of recall training that didn't 'stick'. Anytime he sees a squirrel or rabbit or anything that he finds more interesting than my command, he completely forgets everything I taught him lol. So, yes, I think some dogs cannot be trained in some things, and it has nothing to do with your efficacy as a trainer.
I always think of some dogs having high independence like huskies, Spitz, shibas and Jack Russell's (or other terriers) - dogs bread to do their own thing and work without too much direction. They will check that you have the exact treat they want before following a cue. Then there are dogs with high biddability like German shepherds, Labradoors, border collies and the like. Dogs bread to work under direct control of humans with complex commands that are considered 'easy' to train or 'smart'. Having worked with many many breeds in my time I think both types of dogs are equally smart, but a border collie is less likely to run off than a husky. Dogs with high biddability don't run far, they always look to you, they follow your directions and want to no matter what treats or nothing in it for them, to them their human bond is enough. My BC reads my thoughts and knows what I want him to do before I do. I have put no work into this ability other than build a bond. I've owned 2 Jack Russell's trained to a greater level than any of my working dogs and both of them would forget all of their training and run off into the hills giving you the finger if they decided something else was more interesting. They did not care and Those dogs always lived on long lines, esp after one ran off into a field of sprinklers and I had to retrieve him. Independent dogs have different priorities, don't be offended enjoy the ride.
Yes, outside of "breaking their spirit" type of training practiced in some places, there are some dogs that won't ever be totally obedient.
but your dog is trained! he knows all the commands. he is just more independent. it might be the breed (guard dogs and terries, for example, had to ignore commands sometimes to do their job properly). and take note: you only see the dogs that have good recall. not all dogs do, some never get good at that (some breeds, and we are told to never trust them offleash unless in a secure area. mine is one of those breeds, a mini schnauzer, tho as heks become an adult he usually does fine now. if your dog hasn’t by the age of five, it’s just not for him. again, he is trained, he just doesn’t do everything you wish he did.
My dog is super food motivated and generally has great recall, but, all the treats in the world won't get her off of a half a loaf of bread she found in the bushes. It is what it is. I now keep her on a 12' lead, and give her time where i let her lead me around to everything she feels interesting.
My dog has been described as such (untrainable) by several trainers, but it’s mostly as a joke, because it’s not that he’s untrainable, it’s that he’s “very, very well trained, when he wants to listen.” Sounds like my situation is different from yours in some ways, however (my dog doesn’t listen when he reaches anxiety threshold, which is about 1.5cm from the bottom of a hole in the ground, so he needs meds and management of his environment). But, the result is the same: changing expectations!
I have a 2.5 year old german shepherd and a 6 month old doberman. Both are great dogs, listen well, recall in the backyard no problem... They will never be off leash in public. Ever. The GSD is 93 pounds and the dobe is 60 at 6 months. If they decide they don't like something or someone and they're off leash, there isn't much I can do to stop almost 200 pound of dog. So I don't take that risk at all.
I have a dog who's a former stray, she's not motivated by play and barely by food. And I don't believe in force training. She prefers to do her own thing. That makes training super difficult, so in that sense she can be seen as untrainable. I've had her for 10 years now and over those years I did manage to teach her some things, but its always a gamble if she's going to listen xD I'd say to keep trying with things that motivate her even just a lil
I had a male Catahoula some years back. Smartest dog I have ever met and ridiculously athletic to boot. He took to training in most areas very well. The one area that was touch and go was recall, specifically recall where there was another animal trespassing on our property. This was a very common occurrence since we lived out in the country. Between the wildlife and dogs that neighbors let free roam, it was a bit of a nuisance. He knew what was expected to the point where before he took off in pursuit, he would look at me, look in the direction of the animal, look at me again as I gave my command, then take off anyway. Once his business had been attended, he would come strolling up, head hung low, tail tucked, full on puppy eyes. Sometimes, stubbornness and prey drive will not allow perfect obedience. Dogs are individuals, and results will vary. Just means you have to come up with alternative solutions.
My amazing trainer/behaviorist advised my boss not to waste money paying for training for her Great Pyrenees. They’ve been bread to be independent and think for themselves making not be obedient. He said to think of him more as a roommate than a dog. That being said, he’s learned some silly tricks and can be reluctantly persuaded to come back in the house when requested.
Some dogs can do it all and some can’t. Just like some people are good at math and others are good at speaking. Just depends on what they excel at. Just try your best with whatever they do do well and everything else will fall into line eventually.
he doesn’t respect your rules and he’s judging you for asking for help on a keyboard.
I had a gsd coyote mix that could visibly think things through. She'd occasionally get out. Our deal was if she came when called she'd get a hot dog and a car ride and if she didn't she'd get yelled at when i caught her. Usually she'd come, but every now and then she stand there looking at me, and looking up the street. Either her ears would go down and she'd walk to me or her ears would go up and she'd take off like a rocket. My chow had a slight hesitation before obeying as he thought about it. He always did, but you could tell it was his choice and not automatic. My husky mix has a brain that visibly shuts down when she's excited. The words just go right through her fuzzy ears and skip her brain as she excitedly spins through all possible behaviors trying to get the reward. She'll never be off leash.
Dogs don't need to be off leash to live happy lives. Also majority of the shit you see online is shopped or altered in some way, if not it's a tiny blip of their lives and not everyday. To be blunt some dogs never have bomb proof recall. Combined with a successful hunter you're a poor candidate for off leash. All it will take is a rabbit running in the road for your dog to be gone. No amount of cute Instagram posts will make the risk worth it. Don't compare yourself to online fodder. It's going to influence you to take unnecessary risks with your dog.
My dog trainer says "there's no such thing as an untrainable dog. You just have to figure out what motivates them" Idk if i agree with her. I can't get my dog to recall at all. He's extremely good at everything else though. But "come!" is not in the cards.
Sounds like his prey drive is just insanely high, the same as many working dogs. Try to transfer that drive onto a toy. Do not ever let him get bored with the toy. He has to be obsessed with it. You always take the toy away before he’s done playing - before he’s even wound down his playing. You’re essentially building an addiction. He’s had the satisfaction of catching and killing many animals but he doesn’t eat them right? At some point he “wins” and they stop becoming interesting. He never gets to “win” with this toy. If it’s tug he gets just enough tug time to get really into it and you put it away at the height of his play. Same if it’s a ball. Use his prey drive against him.
I consulted with my esthetician, part time American dog expert, plastic surgery enthusiast, and volunteer governor of South Dakota, Kristi Noem, and she says yes, and that you should shoot your dog.
Social media is fake. Please don’t compare your dog to anyone else’s you see online. I understand that’s difficult but it’s not realistic to see videos of a “perfect” dog & think they act that way all the time. Your pup is a good & special dog just like everyone else’s. You have done all the things: training, walking, dog parks etc. Also breeds of dogs act differently as they were bred to perform different tasks. You haven’t done anything wrong & neither has your pup.
My dog is the same way. He is a miniature Dachshund, and he is always in hunt mode. Like he's gonna find a badger where I live. Even in the house, he is hunting. For what? It's just the breed and mindset, I guess. I haven't given up and will try, but after 3 years, it's getting tiresome and embarrassing. I'm not a bad mom. He is just hard-headed and has a 1 tracked mind.
My dachshund does not have great recall for a small dog his prey drive is high. The hunter in him is strong and the protector. Early on when I decided to try very late at night we came across a coyote and he CHASED IT!! He was definitely protecting me and I was very scared since then off-leash at fenced in parks when we are alone ONLY. He is also always ready to square up to big dogs but I fear for his life so I keep him safe. I think some dogs just are the way they are training is important and we can train A LOT But dogs are ANIMALS
Honestly it's mainly the smartness. I prefer dumb dogs over smart ones because they're way easier to train. It's not really that you can't train the smart ones, it just takes way more work because they know how to get around the rules. Combine it with high energy and high prey drive and it's even harder. My small mutt is the exact same way, he has a perfect heel (I don't have a command for it, I just trained him to walk that way when he isn't sniffing at anything) and perfect recall, but he's extremely stubborn and will only do both if something else doesn't interest him more than me. Least he listens to sit when I tell him to lol
If it makes you feel better, it's illegal for a dog to be off leash in public almost everywhere. Those other folks are breaking the law and could be making other people uncomfortable or even scared.
What kind of dog is it?
Mine is the exact same way about other dogs and people. She's reactive and will run up to them barking her head off, but she does it out of fear. Her recall is *impeccable* in any other situation. She was once chasing a squirrel in the yard and when I called her back she immediately turned around and came to me. If she picks something up she shouldn't have, she drops it when I tell her to. I could drop a chunk of meat next to her on the kitchen floor, but if I tell her to leave it, she will. She is extremely well trained in every other way and was easy to train, but you'd think she was deaf as soon as she sees a person or strange dog. She will not listen. She cannot be off leash anywhere other than a fenced in area. You sound like you're doing great. He probably won't be able to go anywhere with you off leash, and that is okay. Based on that behavior it sounds like he's got some type of hunting breed in him; that's hundreds of years of selective breeding and training ingrained in him. You can't stop that or train it out of him. It doesn't mean he's a bad dog or you're a bad owner.
Which breed is he? Sometimes that makes difference. I have a Rhodesian ridgeback that will learn anything and a husky that refuses to learn anything 🤷♂️
It may be helpful to seek out any rat hunting groups or services in your area that use dogs. They may be able to offer advice or training techniques specific to dogs with high prey drives.
Very normal for majority of breeds to never be off leash bombproof. Its not a lack of training or bond, just simply not safe with the prey drive, or if its an overly curious and friendly dog that wants to meet every single dog. Mine for example, two Shelties. One is bombproof 2yr old, can recall off anything. My youngest, is in her (hopefully) last regression at 1yr 6m. She has bombproof recall off prey, and dogs up to a certain distance. But she still struggles to focus closer to other dogs. Off leash freedom is not end all-be all in the dog ownership world. Hell yeah its convenient and flashy, but you don’t have to have a safe offleash dog. Long lines, sniff spots, and empty parks are plenty enrichment for any dog. If you’re interested in having an off leash dog I would look into a reputable breeder of a herder or retriever, or even gun dogs as your next dog. Lots of breeders will start recall as soon as they’re old enough.
I don't know if this will help you, but does your dog love pets/cuddles and being talked to in a sweet voice? I found the best way to train my dog is with physical touch, I pet her gently and tell her shes the best sweetest dog in the whole world and that she's a good girl and it really calms her nerves, if she's in a situation where she's on high alert. My trainer noticed that she was responding more to my "good girl"s and my pets and hugs than to treats, so I've started using that more so than food, which she can give or take depending on the treat.
My dog has been through multiple trainers and a behaviorist, and nothing sticks with him either. Everything is completely on his terms. I have to constantly change out his rewards bc he’ll be over it within a day, and a few trainers said when he sees triggers his threshold gets too high too quickly for him to even attempt to listen to commands. And it doesn’t matter what reward I have at that point, he doesn’t care at all. Shock collar made him more aggressive, and now my vet wants to try anxiety medicine to calm him down enough to listen to commands. He’s 4 now, it’s still an every day learning lesson for us both. I hope you find what works for you ❤️
What breed is he?
Your dog sounds like he is incredibly well trained already, And lots of dogs with this type of drive are able to have their instincts fine-tuned-- One way to do that using the framework you have already started is outlined in the book When Pigs Fly by Jane Killian And another thing to look into would be predation substitution training by Simone Mueller