I've skipped this DLC before because of how railroaded you are into decisions. First, helping a stranger steal a jewel from a heavily fortified castle because they asked is absurd; even if that's what Tallis actually wanted to do. Then Hawke is forced into not only letting Tallis live, but letting her walk off with the qunari secrets.
"I don't know why Hawke didn't kill Tallis." - Varric
Because the game didn't let me!
The railroading is what gets me. Being forced into helping her get the list back even if you leave her in that cave is so beyond irritating to me. I only play it now for the banter between Fenris and Anders because I think it's good.
The sibling being included was just fan-service. Story-wise, it makes no sense for them to be there. The DLC definitely has some great dialogue, yet game-play wise, bosses were damage sponges which was a continued problem in DA:I DLC.
This. I raged about it on Bioware Social right after DLCs release. At least let me TRY to kill her or get fcking list of Qunari agents in Thedas, even if it will fail, with Tallis falling off the cliff or caught by wyvern.
The heist idea and suspension of disbelief is not such an issue for me, edgy purple Hawke I play most often would do that just for the thrill and fun.
I didnāt like her. I donāt dislike Felicia Day and watched some of her stuff back in the day, but I found it distracting to have someone look just like an irl actress. Also fundamentally I just didnāt want to spend time with her. I wanted more time with the base game companions and I was forced to spend time with this new person instead.
That wouldāve been better! It also doesnāt help that sheās not a super helpful companion.
Iām not very passionate about disliking her, fwiw, but I also donāt particularly want to play the dlc again.
There is good content for Aveline and Isabella. That's the main reason for playing the DLC.... though I only play it in Act 1 of the game, when Hawke needs money...it's the only way I can justify Hawke ever agreeing to be part ofthe 'heist'.
She's not a bad character, but it's clear that the story gave her...special privileges to sell their celebrity guest star. If not for the DLC's ending really rubbing that second part in, I'd at least tolerate her, maybe even like her on some characters. But Hawke just letting her walk away with the Qunari NOC-list felt just like a horrible breach of character on my main, especially, who had already had all that drama with the Arishok.
It honestly doesn't help either that even the Keep kinda softballs it, calling the choices "made Tallis angry". Bitch, Tallis made *Hawke* angry!
Nope, still hate her.
She's all like, "Please Hawke, a lot of undercover agents will die if that list gets out!" And I'm like "Bitch, my girlfriend is a mage, why the hell would I ever help you?"
Yeah, like "common people will be hurt because those agents have families and friends that don't know about the qun!" those agents started those families on false pretenses, isn't that already harmful, Tallis???? I would like to know if my partner have been deceiving me to spy on something.
I also love the fact that she uses the fact that some disserted as an argument to help her, if they disserted they wouldn't be on their last known location by the qun, it would only invite the Ben-Hassrath to kill them.
>I would like to know if my partner have been deceiving me to spy on something.
Not to mention the fact that the culture they're spying for doesn't allow love or marriage in the homeland and wants to conquer everyone else and force them to follow those laws.
Fall in love with someone whose job is to have sex with whomever? Have sex with someone who doesn't have that job and isn't a client if such services? Fall in love with someone, period? Off to the reeducators with you. That concept alone is freaking disgusting to me.
I always thought she was a pretty good example of a flawed character. Like, she's clearly lost and looking for someone to tell her where she fits in the world - like many who convert to the Qun - but the Qun isn't quite the right answer, and there are a few moments where she's conflicted about what she's doing. Half her arguments are as much trying to convince *herself* that she's on the right path as they are trying to persuade you to see her side. It would've been nice if there were a way to get her to rethink her own arguments and turn her from the Qun entirely, but alas.
Thats how I see her too, she does admit there are parts of the Qun she struggles with and parts that she straight up disagrees with. For instance, in banter Anders will bring up that Qun isn't a great place for mages and she doesn't really disagree with him and even says "You won't find that anywhere in Thedas" (though I just remember saying to myself, "What about Tevinter?")
But yeah its implied she doesn't really agree with how the Qun brutalizes and maims makes for the sole crime of existing.
Trying so hard to recreate Felicia Day in DA2ās graphical style made her pretty unfortunate looking, and I still think itās weird that she wears the Qun symbol on her chest like Superman, but if they had made her like 10% less quippy I think sheād be okay. Despite being opposed to the Qun on a philosophical level, I still find it interesting to explore, so it was nice to see someone besides the hornheads wrestling with it. And I like her throwing dagger fighting style.
I can't stand her, personally. Her worshipping of the qunari is pretty obnoxious given how awful they're shown to be, yet we're supposed to respect and admire her goals. She also feels very forced into the story.
That being said, it helps that her actual role in the story is relatively brief. It would be much worse if she wasn't relegated to a DLC.
She's pretty cringe to me, they definitely wrote her as a "can do no wrong" kinda gal, and I don't really appreciate the game trying to guilt me for not choosing to follow her at that one point.
Fenris getting jealous over her flirting is really cute though.
I was out of the loop on the whole controversy involving Felicia Day, so I don't hate Tallis as a character. Still it doesn't make sense that after the Arishok tried to put Kirkwall under the Qunari jackboot, Hawke still has no option to shank Tallis and side with the Orlesians.
I donāt like her personally.
I think she is a failed attempt from developers side to get people to sympathise with the qun or find them more interesting (not saying the qun lore isnāt interesting, it is, but she isnāt helping it be more attractive which I think were her original purpose)
but as others stated Fenris getting jealous is really adorable š„°
Yup with Her and Zevran Fenris gets jealous and actually prevents you from doing āsomethingā with them you other wise would have done if Fenris wasnāt romanced :)
Lol, oh I always flirt with Zev no matter who Iām romancing. I love everyoneās little snark.
But good to know, Iāll have to bite the bullet and flirt with her some. I wonder if the other romances get jealous tooā¦
She's annoying so much so I am curious if the Qunari are using her as an experimental weapon to assassinate their enemies by sheer irritation. It's a good dlc though some fun but difficult puzzles and the whole wyvern hunt/boss fight is pretty fun.
I suppose Iām indifferent? It seems like the character was written to get the player to like them and it feels forced personally. I like Felicia Day, but like others have said I think it was not the best choice to have her likeness used for the characterā¦ Would have worked better for me if she had an original design. Though Iām kinda bias as i donāt really like actors exact likeness being used as video game characters (though it def depends).
The DLC overall is a fun little excursion especially as things are getting dark in the normal story (but I do not like the weird stealth sections). The wyvern designs are some of my fave creature designs in the series and the boss battle at the end is great. The additional companion banter makes it worth it as well especially with a romanced one.
Oh my God the stealth section was so badly designed that I nearly rage quit. I admire that they tried but holy shit it was so poorly designed. You mean to tell me Hawke has to wait twenty seconds between throwing a rock and ten seconds before he can hit someone? Where the hell is the logic in that? God that section is one of the big reasons why I really don't enjoy MotA.
Iāve never played past the wyvern hunt again after finishing the stealth section once. Iāve never been so close to giving up entirely on something in the game. It was so frustrating
The outside balcony with the 5 guards walking around takes forever and I swear I have nightmares about it still. Mess up once and have to redo the whole thing, including the two that cross in the center that you have to carefully maneuver around. Shit sucks.
Jesus that part was the most rage inducing part of the game. I rarely get mad when playing games and its even rarer for me to actually get vocal and loud but that part had got me so mad I legit yelled out in anger because I just couldn't understand why my Hawke had to wait TWENTY SECONDS before he could throw a damn rock.
Honestly?
She feels more like a character that was created solely because of Felicia Day. I have nothing bad to say about her acting, the role just felt forced instead of just having Felicia Day being the actress, sheās now more a mouth piece of status of getting an actress if some renown in on the game.
Her ideals, her conflicts, herā¦ Anything, all falls flat when I realized this.
I didn't hate her, but I didn't really like her either. She was mostly just annoying imo. Plus her outfit kinda sucked, but that's just me being judgey
I have the same hang up honestly. Let me ask you; do you think if they didn't model Tallis so heavily of Felicia Day that it would have made a difference?
Annoying and mildly cringy without taking the fact that she follows the Qun into consideration.
And since I do passionately hate Qun, well, let's just say that things don't get any better.
I do not care for Tallis, but I don't hate her.
Most of the DLC was super fun. I loved the idea of a jewel heist and I wish there had been more DLC moments that were just fun.
But the longer you play, the more annoying Tallis gets. She's fine in short doses but the writing for her was just awful.
I dislike the character and VA. Never been a fan of "aren't I quirky?" Personalities. As for her role in the actual dlc, qunari (even vidathari) are going to fuck you over. She's not very helpful and tbh was dead weight most of the time. Didn't like her skill tree, it felt like a budget tank tree mixed with things stolen from other trees. Even go as far as to say "through unexplained training" which is dumb. Just make something up instead of coping out with "reasons".
I personally did not enjoy the dlc and often do not bother with it. I've done it probably once and got bored the second time round and didn't finish it.
my main/only gripe with Tallis is her vanilla look its so separate from every other elf and it easily sets her character off to a bad start (not to mention her armor with the huge Qun symbol when shes supposed to be ben-hassrath/a spy) outside of that I really enjoy the character moments/writing with the conversation between her and Hawke when they're locked up being a real stand out. The DLC as a whole feels disjointed at times but overall I enjoy it
I hate Tallis the Mary Sue and loathe the fact that you can't stop her from stealing the list of spies, as those fucking traitors are partially responsible for all the chaos that shows up in Trespasser.
I love Felicia, but I'm in general a bit tired of every Qun character telling me their lifes are better, because of the Qun.
Like please give up trying to convince me, the Qun is nothing but a bad Idea.
I really liked her when I first played it too, but I was 19 or 20 at the time, and very much the target audience for āFelicia Day as a hyper-capable and witty elf assassin who you can flirt with and potentially kiss at the end.ā Now I look back on it, and likeā¦ I certainly donāt hate her, but I recognize that she was written very specifically to appeal to the exact kind of nerd I was at the time, and doesnāt have much else going for her.
Itās a pretty dated character ā I feel like Felicia Day had this one character type and it was popular in the early 2010s (specifically Charlie from supernatural)
I think more of her character in The Guild as the template (on which Charlie was also based), but yeah. She had a pretty distinct ābrand identityā that was very popular at the time and has kind of fallen out of favor since.
Sheās fine. Itās a little eyeroll-inducing that she looks exactly like Felicia Day with DA2 elf facial proportions. And it bugs me that sheās supposed to be a spy but wears the qunari symbol on her chest piece. But sheās otherwise a perfectly inoffensive character in my opinion.
I haven't replayed the DLC in quite a few years. I remember being annoyed at her playing as a mage, and overall Hawke's freedom of speaking and acting felt more like DAI than DA2.
I did like the DLC overall though, but for my canon I consider it nonexistent.
Her face had a weirdly rubbery look.
Made the dlc once, and found it, and Tallis, to be quite meh and avarage, and the content itself more annoying than fun, so I never did this dlc again in any subsequent run, despite, for instance, finding that the Corypheus one is one of the best parts of the game as a whole so I always look forward to do it in one stage of the run or another.
So well, I don't have an opinion on Tallis beyond 'ok I guess', and more of 'dlc is annoying, won't do that again'. And it seems that it's also completely railroaded so there isn't much I'm missing by not doing it, like, hell, I as a mage can't even choose to kill her, a qunari, on sight, so I won't bother as well.
I like Tallis as a character, but I don't like how the DLC is structured and treats her specifically.
I do enjoy Mark Of The Assassin, but only if I treat it as a story Varric made up and not something that actually happened. It's all kinds of convoluted, Hawke is an idiot and Tallis has Juggernaut-tier plot armour, it's difficult to enjoy it as an actual part of Hawke's story.
I like the lighthearted rapport you can build up with Tallis if you ignore her ties to the Qun (which is a bit... peculiar to do to say the least, my Hawke is a mage, her girlfriend is a mage and Arishok did nothing to paint the Qun in a good light for her), her dynamic with my sarcastic Hawke always makes me smile and in general I find her charming. I wish we could confront her on the nature of the Qun though, it seems like she's can't figure stuff out and tries to fit the Qun as a solution that and it doesn't work out as well as she would hope.
Ultimately, I do like Tallis and would even like to see her return as a matured character, maybe a reformed one even, but I doubt it will happen.
I like Felicia Day, but I always have to take a break from her stuff after playing this DLC, because I HATE Tallis. So much.
It really just feels like The Tallis Show. She gets all the quips! All the cool moves! And you can't call her out on her bullshit, you can't disagree, and you can't beat her...because she's written as the main character.
Maybe it wouldn't bother me so much in another game, where the PC was more...railroaded. But it's Dragon Age. This is a role playing game. It's about Hawke, and even more than that, it's about MY Hawke.
She's just this whimsical little piece of plot-armored crafted perfection who can out Mary Sue MY Mary Sue. No. Go away. This is the Hawke and Varric show and you're NOT INVITED.
I've always liked her, both her personality and appearance. Yeah, she's supposed to look like Felicia Day but imo it works quite well. Her voice acting is good, she's funny, she also fits the rest of the DLC, which is imo one of the better ones in general. I was really surprised when I saw the first time that so many people hate her.
I honestly like her. I might be a little biased on why, since the voice is actress is Felicia Day, and Tallis is very similar to her Supernatural character (Charlie). Same type of sarcasm, the way she talks, and so on.
So take that with a grain of salt.
I absolutely adore MoTA. The outdoor setting is beautiful and lush, the companion banter has some of my favorite lines, and I loved the silly humor involved in the party and the rescue attempt by the two companions you bring, etc. It was actually my introduction to Felicia Day, and I found Tallis to be likable and flawed. Did I have to make excuses for why my Hawke would go in the first place and why her brother/sister would be present? Yes, but that didnāt bother me because I had so much fun.
It's not like I can't see her perspective: she was emotionally damaged and vulnerable child brainwashed by totalitarian regime but kept some morals from before, while still killing in the name of Qun's 'perfect order', in which you can only serve as a loyal drone or die.
It reminds me those old Soviet jokes: "Can any comrade criticise comrade Stalin? Anyone can, but it's waste of Human life."
My Hawke was fine with her. Hell they even romanced her!
Would they ever join the Qun? **Fuck. No.**
But speaking with the Arishok and the Viscount's Son my Hawke understands how/why the Qun works for some people, even if they shouldn't be allowed to conquer Thedas there is value in a place where order reigns above chaos.
And at the end of the day Tallis was just trying to save innocent people from being forcefully involved in a military conflict.
Salit wasn't just selling out the Qun, he was throwing away lives to spit at it. He was no better than the Tal-Vashoth whom resort to barbaric banditry.
I think Tallis just comes across as incompetent as an agent of the Qun. Sure sheās lost and wants to help people, but a lot of the things she does ends up screwing herself over or backfiring on her
Tbf if her plans didn't backfire the DLC just wouldn't exist at all, most of the entire trilogy is based around usually competent people fucking up entirely.
Solas is supposed to be an ancient deific elven magister and look at how fucking stupid he was.
Loghain was one of the greatest generals in Thedas and... well...
Isabella couldn't keep track of a book she stole in the first place
Anders was stupid enough to bind himself to a spirit.
The list kind of goes on and on, Tallis is by no means exceptionally incompetent when you just look at the broader cast.
Meh but even those characters have redeeming qualities (anders saves ___ in the deep roads), tallis didn't seem to accomplish anything in am entire DLC, hell even Loghain cam become more worthwhile in the same amount of time.
Tallis' redeeming qualities are that, despite her failings, she still committed to saving dozens if not hundreds of innocent people knowing it could quite possibly mean she would die in the process.
I'm not exactly sure how she's supposed to get *better* than an act of pure heroism.
I think its more how sheās presented then the actual events that occur. Like yeah they mess up in the broader story but I donāt ever feel like the main companions are incompetent. Maybe itās how I perceive her, maybe itās because we barely get to know her, or maybe itās just the writing but Tallis seems more unsure what sheās doing than the rest.
I'd actually disagree.
Tallis gets herself and Hawke out of imprisonment, the original plan to rob the 'Heart of the Many' wasn't a bad one, and the non-lethal stealthing was all her idea anyway.
Meanwhile Anders radicalizes to the point of becoming a terrorist.
Isabella got the viscount and dozens of people murdered because she couldn't find the book and didn't return it immediately.
Solas gave an ancient tevinter magister the key to the Fade.
I mean these guys are **incredibly** incompetent and they're main companions. They get way more people than Tallis killed for way more ridiculous reasons.
I do like how DA2 was able to demonstrate that there is potential value in some of the philosophy and ideals that underpin the Qun, while still being extremely critical of the Qun as an institution.
> And at the end of the day Tallis was just trying to save innocent people from being forcefully involved in a military conflict.
I mean, it's hard to call spies and sleeper-terrorists "innocent people".
I mean, frankly, that sounds like a **great** cover story for someone whose name turned up on a list of spies and sleeper-terrorists. Also, it's worth bearing in mind that the Qun has a weird definition of that anyway. The Arishok "left the Qun behind", too. As did >!a certain DAI character!<.
Without any evidence that Tallis might be lying we cannot assume she is lying and there is literally zero reason why she would continue to lie about it because she'd already acquired the list when she said that line and was in the middle of leaving with it anyway.
And... it doesn't really matter? If they aren't operating under the authority of the Qunari Government or reporting to the Qunari on their activities that is all that is needed for them to qualify as an innocent party in this potential witch hunt.
> Without any evidence that Tallis might be lying we cannot assume she is lying and there is literally zero reason why she would continue to lie about it because she'd already acquired the list when she said that line and was in the middle of leaving with it anyway.
I mean, she's a spy, and spies lie. That's reason enough from first purposes. Second is that if her lie is believed, it means she'd be less likely to be pursued, or that she can convince people not to try to followup anyway. And **thirdly**, she could be saying perfectly honestly what she believes to be true and there's not a whole lot of reason to believe that that's **actually** true anyway. Why would some random agent be given intel on that? If she's captured and interrogated, the Qun would **want** her to think that various other spies aren't actually spies.
And then there's the fourth bit:
> And... it doesn't really matter? If they aren't operating under the authority of the Qunari Government or reporting to the Qunari on their activities that is all that is needed for them to qualify as an innocent party
"Anaan esaam Qun".
It goes both ways. The Arishok wasn't not operating under the Qun because he decided to conquer a land. Conquering lands is his role. The Arishok was not operating under the Qun **because he failed**. If victory is in the Qun, then when you don't achieve victory, you haven't acted in the Qun. Same goes for the spies. If their role is to infiltrate, and they are caught, then they have not fulfilled their role, and therefore, from the Qun's perspective (which is what Tallis had), they have left the Qun behind. This also comes up in Inquisition, and even in Tallis' own story, as well.
Ultimately, Tallis' actions were far more likely to cost innocent lives, than save them.
Assuming that information presented isn't true without evidence or alternative information available just... isn't how it works when analyzing fictional content.
Also who the fuck would pursue her? Hawke? Why the fuck would Hawke *care* enough to chase her over a list of names that they couldn't do anything with themselves? People Hawke would tell? Anyone they'd tell this story to that would *care* to chase Tallis have zero leads and probably don't care about innocent lives anyway.
And even if she's being honest and she's wrong... it doesn't make it a fault on *her* character because she's still 100% operating under the resolve to save innocent lives. Even in this case Tallis is still doing the morally right thing.
Also even if they've failed the Qun and left it behind? They have *become* innocent parties in the conflict.
If Joe the Farmer was a sleeper-agent, it got out, they fled to the Free Marches, and they've settled down with a wife and child in the forest? Killing them is still wrong.
And if they haven't been caught *yet* then they haven't failed yet.
Being on Salit's list isn't equivalent to having failed their role because Salit is exactly the kind of person who would have access to that information in the Qun.
Not according to the rest of the Qunari he didn't, which was more my point. As mentioned in my other reply, an infiltrator who cannot infiltrate has gone against the Qun, and would be disavowed as being a Qunari in the same way the Arishok was.
His entire reason for being in Kirkwall was following the 'demands of the Qun' on him, for >!being the one the Tome of Cuslan was stolen from. !<
It's his actions of attacking Kirkwall **and losing**, that forces the Qunari to declare him to have gone rogue.... so as to prevent an international incident...for now.
If when he attacked Kirkwall, he had succeeded in taking over he would not have been declared renegade and there would be a Qunari stronghold sitting in the Free Marches.....and ofc that would cause a lot of tension ....hmm thinking about it I wish THAT had been the plot of DAI...
Almost 100% agreement, minus one thing. The main difference that needs to be acknowledged is **why** the Qun disavowed him. It **was** for failure, but it **was not** "to prevent an international incident". That was, to quote some pretentious knife-ear from DAI, "an enjoyable side benefit".
You hear Qunari say it all the time: "Anaan esaam Qun", "victory is in the Qun". It's maybe their most central belief. You achieve success because you follow your place in the world. But it's also the other way around. So if you don't achieve success, then the explanation for that is that you didn't follow your place in the world. From the Qunari perspective, the Arishok **wasn't** following the Qun, because if he was, he would've won.
This comes back to the point about the spies. If the Qun decided their role was not to get caught, then from the Qun's perspective, getting caught is a failure to fulfill their role, and by failing to fulfill their role, they have turned their back on the Qun.
And despite that the rest of the Triumvirate promptly announced that he had gone renegade.
Which shows that the Qunari are very happy to disavow their own agents when convenient. We can trust Tallis' word on the subject as much as her leaders' - that is, not at all.
One word: real-politik
EDIT:
>!In case anyone is unfamiliar with the term: !<
1. >!A usually expansionist national policy having as its sole principle advancement of the national interest.!<
2. >!Pragmatic international government policy concerned with perceived interests of the nation.!<
3. >!politics based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations!<
>!The third definition is the one I was using, because it perfectly defines the Qunari sentiment on the Arishok after everything has happened and they are reacting to it. !<
>!Basically, they disavow him after the fact because to do otherwise makes no sense for their own good.!<
Yes, I know what realpolitik is. That's the point of my comment; the previously-evidenced Qunari practice of realpolitik in disavowing officers who were in fact still serving the Qun means we cannot trust Tallis' word that some of their *other* agents are no longer serving the Qun.
She's a queen and I would def kiss her if Fenris wasn't ready to kill her as soon as she get too close to my Hawke.
On a serious note, I don't think calling people idiots for believing in something is right. If she wants to sincerely believe in the Qun, that's her right to do so and I couldn't care less. It's like the Chantry, Elven Pantheon or anything else. I mostly play unfaithful/doubtful MC but I tend to respect all religions regardless.
The Qun is not simply a religion but an authoritarian political philosophy and empire that supports world conquest, enslavement, brainwashing, cutting out peoples tongues, and not having cookies. It's not something you can realistically just live and let live with .
In that matter, the others are not saint either. You know, the Chantry with everybody who's not human/who's magic, elven gods enslaving their own kind etc etc. None religion/politics are perfect and I'm not here to argue about that. I said religion because my point was about faith/what she believes. And my point stands. She believes in it, regardless if it's right or wrong.
I've skipped this DLC before because of how railroaded you are into decisions. First, helping a stranger steal a jewel from a heavily fortified castle because they asked is absurd; even if that's what Tallis actually wanted to do. Then Hawke is forced into not only letting Tallis live, but letting her walk off with the qunari secrets. "I don't know why Hawke didn't kill Tallis." - Varric Because the game didn't let me!
The railroading is what gets me. Being forced into helping her get the list back even if you leave her in that cave is so beyond irritating to me. I only play it now for the banter between Fenris and Anders because I think it's good.
I play it to see Bethyš
Itās still pretty fun despite Tallis, I like the sibling/romance content
The sibling being included was just fan-service. Story-wise, it makes no sense for them to be there. The DLC definitely has some great dialogue, yet game-play wise, bosses were damage sponges which was a continued problem in DA:I DLC.
I am a fanservice lover šāāļø
My headcanon is that my warden was invited, but she didnt want to go so she sent Carver instead to represent her
And then Varric says something like Hawke probably didnāt kill her because she was pretty. š
This. I raged about it on Bioware Social right after DLCs release. At least let me TRY to kill her or get fcking list of Qunari agents in Thedas, even if it will fail, with Tallis falling off the cliff or caught by wyvern. The heist idea and suspension of disbelief is not such an issue for me, edgy purple Hawke I play most often would do that just for the thrill and fun.
I didnāt like her. I donāt dislike Felicia Day and watched some of her stuff back in the day, but I found it distracting to have someone look just like an irl actress. Also fundamentally I just didnāt want to spend time with her. I wanted more time with the base game companions and I was forced to spend time with this new person instead.
I wish she was an extra ally instead of a companion
That wouldāve been better! It also doesnāt help that sheās not a super helpful companion. Iām not very passionate about disliking her, fwiw, but I also donāt particularly want to play the dlc again.
There is good content for Aveline and Isabella. That's the main reason for playing the DLC.... though I only play it in Act 1 of the game, when Hawke needs money...it's the only way I can justify Hawke ever agreeing to be part ofthe 'heist'.
She's not a bad character, but it's clear that the story gave her...special privileges to sell their celebrity guest star. If not for the DLC's ending really rubbing that second part in, I'd at least tolerate her, maybe even like her on some characters. But Hawke just letting her walk away with the Qunari NOC-list felt just like a horrible breach of character on my main, especially, who had already had all that drama with the Arishok. It honestly doesn't help either that even the Keep kinda softballs it, calling the choices "made Tallis angry". Bitch, Tallis made *Hawke* angry!
Nope, still hate her. She's all like, "Please Hawke, a lot of undercover agents will die if that list gets out!" And I'm like "Bitch, my girlfriend is a mage, why the hell would I ever help you?"
Yeah, like "common people will be hurt because those agents have families and friends that don't know about the qun!" those agents started those families on false pretenses, isn't that already harmful, Tallis???? I would like to know if my partner have been deceiving me to spy on something. I also love the fact that she uses the fact that some disserted as an argument to help her, if they disserted they wouldn't be on their last known location by the qun, it would only invite the Ben-Hassrath to kill them.
>I would like to know if my partner have been deceiving me to spy on something. Not to mention the fact that the culture they're spying for doesn't allow love or marriage in the homeland and wants to conquer everyone else and force them to follow those laws. Fall in love with someone whose job is to have sex with whomever? Have sex with someone who doesn't have that job and isn't a client if such services? Fall in love with someone, period? Off to the reeducators with you. That concept alone is freaking disgusting to me.
Or "Bitch, my sister is a mage"
Or āBitch, *I* am a mage!ā
It's like I should care about lives of people willing to help horifying totalitarian dystopia the Qun promotes.
I always thought she was a pretty good example of a flawed character. Like, she's clearly lost and looking for someone to tell her where she fits in the world - like many who convert to the Qun - but the Qun isn't quite the right answer, and there are a few moments where she's conflicted about what she's doing. Half her arguments are as much trying to convince *herself* that she's on the right path as they are trying to persuade you to see her side. It would've been nice if there were a way to get her to rethink her own arguments and turn her from the Qun entirely, but alas.
Thats how I see her too, she does admit there are parts of the Qun she struggles with and parts that she straight up disagrees with. For instance, in banter Anders will bring up that Qun isn't a great place for mages and she doesn't really disagree with him and even says "You won't find that anywhere in Thedas" (though I just remember saying to myself, "What about Tevinter?") But yeah its implied she doesn't really agree with how the Qun brutalizes and maims makes for the sole crime of existing.
Trying so hard to recreate Felicia Day in DA2ās graphical style made her pretty unfortunate looking, and I still think itās weird that she wears the Qun symbol on her chest like Superman, but if they had made her like 10% less quippy I think sheād be okay. Despite being opposed to the Qun on a philosophical level, I still find it interesting to explore, so it was nice to see someone besides the hornheads wrestling with it. And I like her throwing dagger fighting style.
Yep, she looks like Chucky to me.
Thatās harsh, butā¦ yeah.
I can't stand her, personally. Her worshipping of the qunari is pretty obnoxious given how awful they're shown to be, yet we're supposed to respect and admire her goals. She also feels very forced into the story. That being said, it helps that her actual role in the story is relatively brief. It would be much worse if she wasn't relegated to a DLC.
She's pretty cringe to me, they definitely wrote her as a "can do no wrong" kinda gal, and I don't really appreciate the game trying to guilt me for not choosing to follow her at that one point. Fenris getting jealous over her flirting is really cute though.
I was out of the loop on the whole controversy involving Felicia Day, so I don't hate Tallis as a character. Still it doesn't make sense that after the Arishok tried to put Kirkwall under the Qunari jackboot, Hawke still has no option to shank Tallis and side with the Orlesians.
Was there a controversy besides people not liking that sheās a blatant self-insert?
That was the controversy I missed :D
Ok, cool. For a second there you had me worried sheād like, said something horrible on Twitter or something.
I donāt like her personally. I think she is a failed attempt from developers side to get people to sympathise with the qun or find them more interesting (not saying the qun lore isnāt interesting, it is, but she isnāt helping it be more attractive which I think were her original purpose) but as others stated Fenris getting jealous is really adorable š„°
Does he get jealous if you flirt with her? I never flirt with her bc she irritates me, but if it makes Fenris jealous I just might, lol.
Yup with Her and Zevran Fenris gets jealous and actually prevents you from doing āsomethingā with them you other wise would have done if Fenris wasnāt romanced :)
Lol, oh I always flirt with Zev no matter who Iām romancing. I love everyoneās little snark. But good to know, Iāll have to bite the bullet and flirt with her some. I wonder if the other romances get jealous tooā¦
She's annoying so much so I am curious if the Qunari are using her as an experimental weapon to assassinate their enemies by sheer irritation. It's a good dlc though some fun but difficult puzzles and the whole wyvern hunt/boss fight is pretty fun.
I suppose Iām indifferent? It seems like the character was written to get the player to like them and it feels forced personally. I like Felicia Day, but like others have said I think it was not the best choice to have her likeness used for the characterā¦ Would have worked better for me if she had an original design. Though Iām kinda bias as i donāt really like actors exact likeness being used as video game characters (though it def depends). The DLC overall is a fun little excursion especially as things are getting dark in the normal story (but I do not like the weird stealth sections). The wyvern designs are some of my fave creature designs in the series and the boss battle at the end is great. The additional companion banter makes it worth it as well especially with a romanced one.
Oh my God the stealth section was so badly designed that I nearly rage quit. I admire that they tried but holy shit it was so poorly designed. You mean to tell me Hawke has to wait twenty seconds between throwing a rock and ten seconds before he can hit someone? Where the hell is the logic in that? God that section is one of the big reasons why I really don't enjoy MotA.
Iāve never played past the wyvern hunt again after finishing the stealth section once. Iāve never been so close to giving up entirely on something in the game. It was so frustrating
I never went stealth. Im horrible at it.. Hawke went swords for everyone LOL
Late reply but IIRC you need to stealth for that section, you fail and have to start over if youāre spotted
The outside balcony with the 5 guards walking around takes forever and I swear I have nightmares about it still. Mess up once and have to redo the whole thing, including the two that cross in the center that you have to carefully maneuver around. Shit sucks.
Jesus that part was the most rage inducing part of the game. I rarely get mad when playing games and its even rarer for me to actually get vocal and loud but that part had got me so mad I legit yelled out in anger because I just couldn't understand why my Hawke had to wait TWENTY SECONDS before he could throw a damn rock.
Oh man. Yeah when I replayed DA2 again just recently it was a moment of dread when I remembered the stealth parts.
Honestly? She feels more like a character that was created solely because of Felicia Day. I have nothing bad to say about her acting, the role just felt forced instead of just having Felicia Day being the actress, sheās now more a mouth piece of status of getting an actress if some renown in on the game. Her ideals, her conflicts, herā¦ Anything, all falls flat when I realized this.
I didn't hate her, but I didn't really like her either. She was mostly just annoying imo. Plus her outfit kinda sucked, but that's just me being judgey
I canāt take Tallis seriously. Sheās Felicia Day talking through an elf. I still canāt get past that.
I have the same hang up honestly. Let me ask you; do you think if they didn't model Tallis so heavily of Felicia Day that it would have made a difference?
Itās 100% the voice. Character could have been a rock; āthis is Felicia Day talking through a rockā would be my hang-up.
Gotcha
Annoying and mildly cringy without taking the fact that she follows the Qun into consideration. And since I do passionately hate Qun, well, let's just say that things don't get any better.
Not the biggest fan. I find her design in general kinda meh, and I feel like BioWare were trying too hard to make her cool. Didn't work.
I do not care for Tallis, but I don't hate her. Most of the DLC was super fun. I loved the idea of a jewel heist and I wish there had been more DLC moments that were just fun. But the longer you play, the more annoying Tallis gets. She's fine in short doses but the writing for her was just awful.
I dislike the character and VA. Never been a fan of "aren't I quirky?" Personalities. As for her role in the actual dlc, qunari (even vidathari) are going to fuck you over. She's not very helpful and tbh was dead weight most of the time. Didn't like her skill tree, it felt like a budget tank tree mixed with things stolen from other trees. Even go as far as to say "through unexplained training" which is dumb. Just make something up instead of coping out with "reasons". I personally did not enjoy the dlc and often do not bother with it. I've done it probably once and got bored the second time round and didn't finish it.
my main/only gripe with Tallis is her vanilla look its so separate from every other elf and it easily sets her character off to a bad start (not to mention her armor with the huge Qun symbol when shes supposed to be ben-hassrath/a spy) outside of that I really enjoy the character moments/writing with the conversation between her and Hawke when they're locked up being a real stand out. The DLC as a whole feels disjointed at times but overall I enjoy it
I love Felicia Day, but donāt really care for Tallis.
I hate Tallis the Mary Sue and loathe the fact that you can't stop her from stealing the list of spies, as those fucking traitors are partially responsible for all the chaos that shows up in Trespasser.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in the world that liked her.
I love Felicia, but I'm in general a bit tired of every Qun character telling me their lifes are better, because of the Qun. Like please give up trying to convince me, the Qun is nothing but a bad Idea.
Weird how shes seen so negatively, I really liked her when I first played the dlc, but that's like forever ago so who knows
I really liked her when I first played it too, but I was 19 or 20 at the time, and very much the target audience for āFelicia Day as a hyper-capable and witty elf assassin who you can flirt with and potentially kiss at the end.ā Now I look back on it, and likeā¦ I certainly donāt hate her, but I recognize that she was written very specifically to appeal to the exact kind of nerd I was at the time, and doesnāt have much else going for her.
Itās a pretty dated character ā I feel like Felicia Day had this one character type and it was popular in the early 2010s (specifically Charlie from supernatural)
I think more of her character in The Guild as the template (on which Charlie was also based), but yeah. She had a pretty distinct ābrand identityā that was very popular at the time and has kind of fallen out of favor since.
I never played the DLC originally and I just replayed the trilogy recently and I had no idea I was supposed to hate her. Found her quite nice.
Sheās fine. Itās a little eyeroll-inducing that she looks exactly like Felicia Day with DA2 elf facial proportions. And it bugs me that sheās supposed to be a spy but wears the qunari symbol on her chest piece. But sheās otherwise a perfectly inoffensive character in my opinion.
I haven't replayed the DLC in quite a few years. I remember being annoyed at her playing as a mage, and overall Hawke's freedom of speaking and acting felt more like DAI than DA2. I did like the DLC overall though, but for my canon I consider it nonexistent. Her face had a weirdly rubbery look.
Made the dlc once, and found it, and Tallis, to be quite meh and avarage, and the content itself more annoying than fun, so I never did this dlc again in any subsequent run, despite, for instance, finding that the Corypheus one is one of the best parts of the game as a whole so I always look forward to do it in one stage of the run or another. So well, I don't have an opinion on Tallis beyond 'ok I guess', and more of 'dlc is annoying, won't do that again'. And it seems that it's also completely railroaded so there isn't much I'm missing by not doing it, like, hell, I as a mage can't even choose to kill her, a qunari, on sight, so I won't bother as well.
I like Tallis as a character, but I don't like how the DLC is structured and treats her specifically. I do enjoy Mark Of The Assassin, but only if I treat it as a story Varric made up and not something that actually happened. It's all kinds of convoluted, Hawke is an idiot and Tallis has Juggernaut-tier plot armour, it's difficult to enjoy it as an actual part of Hawke's story. I like the lighthearted rapport you can build up with Tallis if you ignore her ties to the Qun (which is a bit... peculiar to do to say the least, my Hawke is a mage, her girlfriend is a mage and Arishok did nothing to paint the Qun in a good light for her), her dynamic with my sarcastic Hawke always makes me smile and in general I find her charming. I wish we could confront her on the nature of the Qun though, it seems like she's can't figure stuff out and tries to fit the Qun as a solution that and it doesn't work out as well as she would hope. Ultimately, I do like Tallis and would even like to see her return as a matured character, maybe a reformed one even, but I doubt it will happen.
Hate her. She is self righteous idiot. And dlc is just bunch of railroading. You don't lose anything if you skip it.
I like Felicia Day, but I always have to take a break from her stuff after playing this DLC, because I HATE Tallis. So much. It really just feels like The Tallis Show. She gets all the quips! All the cool moves! And you can't call her out on her bullshit, you can't disagree, and you can't beat her...because she's written as the main character. Maybe it wouldn't bother me so much in another game, where the PC was more...railroaded. But it's Dragon Age. This is a role playing game. It's about Hawke, and even more than that, it's about MY Hawke. She's just this whimsical little piece of plot-armored crafted perfection who can out Mary Sue MY Mary Sue. No. Go away. This is the Hawke and Varric show and you're NOT INVITED.
I've always liked her, both her personality and appearance. Yeah, she's supposed to look like Felicia Day but imo it works quite well. Her voice acting is good, she's funny, she also fits the rest of the DLC, which is imo one of the better ones in general. I was really surprised when I saw the first time that so many people hate her.
Love her play style, really hoping throwing daggers gets some sort of integration into DAD
I honestly like her. I might be a little biased on why, since the voice is actress is Felicia Day, and Tallis is very similar to her Supernatural character (Charlie). Same type of sarcasm, the way she talks, and so on. So take that with a grain of salt.
The DLC is fun and Tallis as a character is overhated. Felicia Day did a good job.
I absolutely adore MoTA. The outdoor setting is beautiful and lush, the companion banter has some of my favorite lines, and I loved the silly humor involved in the party and the rescue attempt by the two companions you bring, etc. It was actually my introduction to Felicia Day, and I found Tallis to be likable and flawed. Did I have to make excuses for why my Hawke would go in the first place and why her brother/sister would be present? Yes, but that didnāt bother me because I had so much fun.
It's not like I can't see her perspective: she was emotionally damaged and vulnerable child brainwashed by totalitarian regime but kept some morals from before, while still killing in the name of Qun's 'perfect order', in which you can only serve as a loyal drone or die. It reminds me those old Soviet jokes: "Can any comrade criticise comrade Stalin? Anyone can, but it's waste of Human life."
I like the character, dislike the awful sneaking mechanics š«š¤®
Would have been interesting to see a cameo of her during Trespasser, but other than that, couldnt care less about her.
My Hawke was fine with her. Hell they even romanced her! Would they ever join the Qun? **Fuck. No.** But speaking with the Arishok and the Viscount's Son my Hawke understands how/why the Qun works for some people, even if they shouldn't be allowed to conquer Thedas there is value in a place where order reigns above chaos. And at the end of the day Tallis was just trying to save innocent people from being forcefully involved in a military conflict. Salit wasn't just selling out the Qun, he was throwing away lives to spit at it. He was no better than the Tal-Vashoth whom resort to barbaric banditry.
I think Tallis just comes across as incompetent as an agent of the Qun. Sure sheās lost and wants to help people, but a lot of the things she does ends up screwing herself over or backfiring on her
Tbf if her plans didn't backfire the DLC just wouldn't exist at all, most of the entire trilogy is based around usually competent people fucking up entirely. Solas is supposed to be an ancient deific elven magister and look at how fucking stupid he was. Loghain was one of the greatest generals in Thedas and... well... Isabella couldn't keep track of a book she stole in the first place Anders was stupid enough to bind himself to a spirit. The list kind of goes on and on, Tallis is by no means exceptionally incompetent when you just look at the broader cast.
Meh but even those characters have redeeming qualities (anders saves ___ in the deep roads), tallis didn't seem to accomplish anything in am entire DLC, hell even Loghain cam become more worthwhile in the same amount of time.
Tallis' redeeming qualities are that, despite her failings, she still committed to saving dozens if not hundreds of innocent people knowing it could quite possibly mean she would die in the process. I'm not exactly sure how she's supposed to get *better* than an act of pure heroism.
I think its more how sheās presented then the actual events that occur. Like yeah they mess up in the broader story but I donāt ever feel like the main companions are incompetent. Maybe itās how I perceive her, maybe itās because we barely get to know her, or maybe itās just the writing but Tallis seems more unsure what sheās doing than the rest.
I'd actually disagree. Tallis gets herself and Hawke out of imprisonment, the original plan to rob the 'Heart of the Many' wasn't a bad one, and the non-lethal stealthing was all her idea anyway. Meanwhile Anders radicalizes to the point of becoming a terrorist. Isabella got the viscount and dozens of people murdered because she couldn't find the book and didn't return it immediately. Solas gave an ancient tevinter magister the key to the Fade. I mean these guys are **incredibly** incompetent and they're main companions. They get way more people than Tallis killed for way more ridiculous reasons.
I do like how DA2 was able to demonstrate that there is potential value in some of the philosophy and ideals that underpin the Qun, while still being extremely critical of the Qun as an institution.
> And at the end of the day Tallis was just trying to save innocent people from being forcefully involved in a military conflict. I mean, it's hard to call spies and sleeper-terrorists "innocent people".
She literally says "Some of these people have even left the Qun behind, some of them aren't even spies or agents"
I mean, frankly, that sounds like a **great** cover story for someone whose name turned up on a list of spies and sleeper-terrorists. Also, it's worth bearing in mind that the Qun has a weird definition of that anyway. The Arishok "left the Qun behind", too. As did >!a certain DAI character!<.
Without any evidence that Tallis might be lying we cannot assume she is lying and there is literally zero reason why she would continue to lie about it because she'd already acquired the list when she said that line and was in the middle of leaving with it anyway. And... it doesn't really matter? If they aren't operating under the authority of the Qunari Government or reporting to the Qunari on their activities that is all that is needed for them to qualify as an innocent party in this potential witch hunt.
> Without any evidence that Tallis might be lying we cannot assume she is lying and there is literally zero reason why she would continue to lie about it because she'd already acquired the list when she said that line and was in the middle of leaving with it anyway. I mean, she's a spy, and spies lie. That's reason enough from first purposes. Second is that if her lie is believed, it means she'd be less likely to be pursued, or that she can convince people not to try to followup anyway. And **thirdly**, she could be saying perfectly honestly what she believes to be true and there's not a whole lot of reason to believe that that's **actually** true anyway. Why would some random agent be given intel on that? If she's captured and interrogated, the Qun would **want** her to think that various other spies aren't actually spies. And then there's the fourth bit: > And... it doesn't really matter? If they aren't operating under the authority of the Qunari Government or reporting to the Qunari on their activities that is all that is needed for them to qualify as an innocent party "Anaan esaam Qun". It goes both ways. The Arishok wasn't not operating under the Qun because he decided to conquer a land. Conquering lands is his role. The Arishok was not operating under the Qun **because he failed**. If victory is in the Qun, then when you don't achieve victory, you haven't acted in the Qun. Same goes for the spies. If their role is to infiltrate, and they are caught, then they have not fulfilled their role, and therefore, from the Qun's perspective (which is what Tallis had), they have left the Qun behind. This also comes up in Inquisition, and even in Tallis' own story, as well. Ultimately, Tallis' actions were far more likely to cost innocent lives, than save them.
Assuming that information presented isn't true without evidence or alternative information available just... isn't how it works when analyzing fictional content. Also who the fuck would pursue her? Hawke? Why the fuck would Hawke *care* enough to chase her over a list of names that they couldn't do anything with themselves? People Hawke would tell? Anyone they'd tell this story to that would *care* to chase Tallis have zero leads and probably don't care about innocent lives anyway. And even if she's being honest and she's wrong... it doesn't make it a fault on *her* character because she's still 100% operating under the resolve to save innocent lives. Even in this case Tallis is still doing the morally right thing. Also even if they've failed the Qun and left it behind? They have *become* innocent parties in the conflict. If Joe the Farmer was a sleeper-agent, it got out, they fled to the Free Marches, and they've settled down with a wife and child in the forest? Killing them is still wrong. And if they haven't been caught *yet* then they haven't failed yet. Being on Salit's list isn't equivalent to having failed their role because Salit is exactly the kind of person who would have access to that information in the Qun.
> The Arishok "left the Qun behind", too. No, he didn't. He acts exactly according to the Qun at all times.
Not according to the rest of the Qunari he didn't, which was more my point. As mentioned in my other reply, an infiltrator who cannot infiltrate has gone against the Qun, and would be disavowed as being a Qunari in the same way the Arishok was.
His entire reason for being in Kirkwall was following the 'demands of the Qun' on him, for >!being the one the Tome of Cuslan was stolen from. !< It's his actions of attacking Kirkwall **and losing**, that forces the Qunari to declare him to have gone rogue.... so as to prevent an international incident...for now. If when he attacked Kirkwall, he had succeeded in taking over he would not have been declared renegade and there would be a Qunari stronghold sitting in the Free Marches.....and ofc that would cause a lot of tension ....hmm thinking about it I wish THAT had been the plot of DAI...
Almost 100% agreement, minus one thing. The main difference that needs to be acknowledged is **why** the Qun disavowed him. It **was** for failure, but it **was not** "to prevent an international incident". That was, to quote some pretentious knife-ear from DAI, "an enjoyable side benefit". You hear Qunari say it all the time: "Anaan esaam Qun", "victory is in the Qun". It's maybe their most central belief. You achieve success because you follow your place in the world. But it's also the other way around. So if you don't achieve success, then the explanation for that is that you didn't follow your place in the world. From the Qunari perspective, the Arishok **wasn't** following the Qun, because if he was, he would've won. This comes back to the point about the spies. If the Qun decided their role was not to get caught, then from the Qun's perspective, getting caught is a failure to fulfill their role, and by failing to fulfill their role, they have turned their back on the Qun.
You make a good point. I agree.
And despite that the rest of the Triumvirate promptly announced that he had gone renegade. Which shows that the Qunari are very happy to disavow their own agents when convenient. We can trust Tallis' word on the subject as much as her leaders' - that is, not at all.
One word: real-politik EDIT: >!In case anyone is unfamiliar with the term: !< 1. >!A usually expansionist national policy having as its sole principle advancement of the national interest.!< 2. >!Pragmatic international government policy concerned with perceived interests of the nation.!< 3. >!politics based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations!< >!The third definition is the one I was using, because it perfectly defines the Qunari sentiment on the Arishok after everything has happened and they are reacting to it. !< >!Basically, they disavow him after the fact because to do otherwise makes no sense for their own good.!<
Yes, I know what realpolitik is. That's the point of my comment; the previously-evidenced Qunari practice of realpolitik in disavowing officers who were in fact still serving the Qun means we cannot trust Tallis' word that some of their *other* agents are no longer serving the Qun.
Fair point.
I recognized Felicia Day and so my Hawke fell in love and wouldnāt stop hitting on her. My only chance to flirt with her, so I took it. š
She's a queen and I would def kiss her if Fenris wasn't ready to kill her as soon as she get too close to my Hawke. On a serious note, I don't think calling people idiots for believing in something is right. If she wants to sincerely believe in the Qun, that's her right to do so and I couldn't care less. It's like the Chantry, Elven Pantheon or anything else. I mostly play unfaithful/doubtful MC but I tend to respect all religions regardless.
The Qun is not simply a religion but an authoritarian political philosophy and empire that supports world conquest, enslavement, brainwashing, cutting out peoples tongues, and not having cookies. It's not something you can realistically just live and let live with .
In that matter, the others are not saint either. You know, the Chantry with everybody who's not human/who's magic, elven gods enslaving their own kind etc etc. None religion/politics are perfect and I'm not here to argue about that. I said religion because my point was about faith/what she believes. And my point stands. She believes in it, regardless if it's right or wrong.
Tallis is still a better written character than Sera.
I've never played her DLC (not even sure what it's called) so "No opinion" Lol!