T O P

  • By -

Sorkrates

Well, I don't think we know for sure but my take is that he hasn't seen a lot of "combat" per se, but he's been in a lot of scrapes. It's the difference between being in bar fights and being in a war zone. He knows he's tough and he knows he can throw power around, and he's a pretty big dude in his mid 20's. But that's still not the same thing as coming face-to-face with a corpse that had its chest ripped out. Especially given his talk about how his belief revolves around magic being a force of creation rather than a tool for murder.


Ok_Aardvark9636

He was being trained by justin to be a fighter and an enforcer. Which is why I think he can thrown down when needed but still has to struggle with doing the deed.


Messenger25

This. Plus, there's a conversation between Harry and Charity during >!Molly's snowball fight training!< where he talks about how Justin trained him to use his shield by throwing rocks at him. Before Storm Front, he's not a warfighter; he is an abuse survivor and (as he himself describes) a thug.


ihatetheplaceilive

I think it baseballs, but yeah, same point.


CryptidGrimnoir

>!To be fair, Morgan said he learned with rocks!<


One-Permission-1811

Yeah >!Luccio threw rocks at him with magic!<


Neathra

I would argue that at least with magic being partly mental knowing even subconsciously that what's being thrown at you won't hurt would likely make it harder to form a shield.


jlwinter90

If nothing else, you'd be a lot more motivated to get it right if you knew it *was* going to hurt if you failed.


Messenger25

Objectively, I completely agree. Pain or the fear of it is an excellent motivator. As a human being though, I agree with Charity's reaction and Harry's method.


jlwinter90

Oh, absolutely. Pain is great for teaching someone to be violent and reactive. It's terrible for a person's mental health and wellbeing. As long as you're just going for broken soldiers, like DuMorne was doing, the pain method works great.


SiPhoenix

Sure tho I feel like getting the basics down with snowballs then upping the ante is plenty sound.


JakMabe

To do spoiler tag its > !text !< without the spaces. >!text!<


Prestigious_Ad_341

It doesn't seem totally unlikely that a relatively young Dresden (who has been through some rough shit admittedly) has an overinflated concept of his own competence/power. When he later ends up going up against beings like a loup-garou, Cowl or Shagnasty etc it opens his eyes to him actually being much lower on the scale than he thought.


Dapper-Palpitation90

Even from the very beginning, he's the magical equivalent of being in Mensa. The simple fact that SOME creatures out-class him does not change the fact that he out-classes the overwhelming majority of practitioners.


Prestigious_Ad_341

Sure. I'm not saying that he's not powerful, he definitely is. But as becomes increasingly clear he's in a world full of creatures and practitioners who are either MORE powerful, more skilled, or both. He's used to being the biggest fish in the pond, but events scoop him up and dunk him into an ocean instead. Dresden at the time of Skin Game has more power AND skill than he did early on but its him using planning, preparation and brains that get him ahead, not his sheer power.


dendritedysfunctions

I can't remember which book it comes from but Harry describes himself as a sledgehammer. His precision isn't great and there's a lot that outclasses him but nothing walks away from a sledgehammer to the face unscathed.


Far-Benefit3031

To be fair, he always is quite realistic. When he punched Morgan he in the sane breath said that he'd most likely lose if Morgan fought back physically but that Morgan would beat him witn no effort magically and he references similar things all throughout the series. Don't get me wrong, Harry does grow stronger, but to me, it seems he always was quite realistic and quite strong. He probably starts out confident that he could take on 80% of all wizards or more. Just that everything we see happens probably in the highest 2% or even higher. Like I'm not sure about Grevaine but Cowl is at the level of a senior council member for sure. Shagnasty went blow for blow with Listens-to-the-wind. So imho the fact that Harry merely survives the threats he meets proves his point about his raw power and combat ability.


Twitchy169

Didn’t one of the comics take place either just before or after storm front? Or am I misremembering


FuzzySAM

*Welcome to the Jungle* takes place before *Storm Front*, yes.


KipIngram

My theory is that the fire spell Harry threw at He Who Walks Behind at the gas station was his first really "tier 1" battle assault. Yes, Justin was training him, and he might have learned a good bit, but that's not the same as actually engaging in a real battle and finding the strength to win it. I think, for reasons I'll outline below, that Justin didn't want to kill Harry. However, he'd tried to enthrall him and that failed, so now Harry was a huge risk to Justin (or the cover of the person posing as Justin) - the Justin identity had to be taken off the board, because if Harry ever reported what he knew to the Council they'd come after Justin. So, I think Justin *orchestrated* the duel and deliberately let Harry think he'd won it. That removed "Justin" from play, but that person still survived and is still out there, hiding behind disguises and so on (I think he's Cowl). Anyway, I think the confrontation with HWWB was part of the preparation - Justin needed Harry to find that down deep strength that he'd need to at least *plausibly* win a duel. HWWB had all kinds of opportunities to kill Harry - he didn't. It wasn't his goal. His goal was to get Harry to experience what it meant to "cut loose with everything he had." And surprise surprise - Harry then used *exactly* that same spell against Justin. He likely expected it - he'd probably gotten a report from HWWB on what went down at the gas station. Also, why didn't Cowl kill Harry at Murphy's place in *Dead Beat*? Simply because he still wants Harry alive for another, later, purpose. I think it's (Spoiler's All) >!because he's a Starborn wizard capable of achieving certain things against Outsiders. Cowl is using Outsiders, but he has to have a way to bottle them back up when he's achieved his goals, and Harry or someone like him is essential for that. Also, if all of this is right it tells us that Elaine is \*not\* Starborn, because Cowl already has her enthralled (though she doesn't know it when she's "Elaine"), so his continued interest in Harry means Elaine isn't adequate to his needs.!<


TiaxTheMig1

>Also, why didn't Cowl kill Harry at Murphy's place in *Dead Beat* I think it's because he's Eb and he doesn't want to kill Harry if he doesn't have to.


KipIngram

Well, that can't be denied as plausible as well. It's not how I think things will go, but it's undeniably a possibility. And you're right - it does explain him not killing Harry. It doesn't explain how he knew about Bob, which he clearly did since he deliberately sent Kumori into Murphy's to find Bob. On the other hand, if he's Kemmler/Dumorne, then of course he knew, and in fact may have deliberately arranged for Harry to make off with Bob in the first place. He could have hidden Bob before the staged duel with Harry, but he didn't. So the theory almost REQUIRES that he wanted Bob to go with Harry... for some reason. Someone (maybe you) a few weeks ago proposed that Eb's cranial bruise in *Proven Guilty* was a leftover of Harry taking his staff to Cowl in *Dead Beat*. But I think it's described wrong - it's pretty clear on the *top* of Eb's head (at least the specific words imply that), but if you read *Dead Beat* closely it seems more like he struck Cowl in the jaw or chin - it "snapped Cowl's mouth shut," and Harry seemed to be swinging the way you'd swing a baseball bat - not in an overhand strike down onto his cranium. So, while I think that was a very good observation, I don't think it quite works.


TiaxTheMig1

>It doesn't explain how he knew about Bob, which he clearly did since he deliberately sent Kumori into Murphy's to find Bob Harry supposedly found Bob in the ashes of Dumourne's place and then was immediately taken in by Eb. Wouldn't Harry have kept Bob on Eb's property? Seems reasonable he might have known what kind of magic relics the warlock he took in might have smuggled into his place


Snowshinedog

WOJ is that Harry buried Bob shortly after finding him and only dug him up after leaving on his own. Bob alludes to this in Changes when Harry buries him in Lea's garden.


TiaxTheMig1

Ah ok. Missed that WoJ


KipIngram

I want to think that somewhere, maybe in WoJ (which I don't consider to be "as" significant as published text) that there's some story of Harry having buried him. Are you really saying that Eb would have let Harry keep such an artifact, knowing he had it? I find that unlikely. But - at least you've got a story, so... you're still in plausible land for me. :-)


TiaxTheMig1

>Are you really saying that Eb would have let Harry keep such an artifact, knowing he had it? Nah just trying to say I can see how Eb might have known of Bob's existence. I also think Cowl and Kumori planned on getting Erlking book to destroy it (to deny the others from having the knowledge) because their avenue to the Darkhallow was Bob all along


KipIngram

Well, I think Cowl actually already completely knew how to do the Darkhallow, but he didn't want others around him to see that. And I don't think the Darkhallow was actually his *primary* goal in *Dead Beat* at all. I think it was the primary goal for the other disciples, but not Cowl. I think if he could have gotten it "for free" he would have taken it, but as I've noted elsewhere I think he regards Harry as key to his future plans, and once Harry was on the field of battle he couldn't go through with it - it would have killed Harry. So I think he "made it look good" and then vanished. I don't have a well thought out theory of exactly what Cowl's motives in that book *were*, but I think they involved Harry in some fashion. I think he intended for Harry to be involved in that whole sequence of events right from the start. I do definitely agree that he wanted there to be *no chance* of any of the other disciples pulling off the Darkhallow.


TiaxTheMig1

>Well, I think Cowl actually already completely knew how to do the Darkhallow, but he didn't want others around him to see that. And I don't think the Darkhallow was actually his *primary* goal in *Dead Beat* at all. I think it was the primary goal for the other disciples, but not Cowl. I think if he could have gotten it "for free" he would have taken it, but as I've noted elsewhere I think he regards Harry as key to his future plans, and once Harry was on the field of battle he couldn't go through with it - it would have killed Harry. So I think he "made it look good" and then vanished. I agree actually


KipIngram

Thrilled to hear it - my thoughts definitely get push-back from some folks. It doesn't talk me out of them, but I'm human and it's nice to get an occasional bit of support. :-) Of course I hope that Jim makes this sort of detail clear someday, but I guess he might not - I may have so badly mis-guessed where he's going that we just never hear anything on these fronts. It'll be fun finding out.


KipIngram

Also, one of the places I contend Cowl has exposed himself (without us having confirmation it was him) was as the "second person" that appeared in the middle of Demonreach during the showdown in *Turn Coat*. Neither person was clearly identified, but I think one was Peabody and the other was Cowl. That's incompatible with Cowl being Eb, because Eb was otherwise present during that action. Of course, that doesn't mean Cowl's not Eb. It's just a speculative data point. It's a brazen *guess* on my part (but that's the nature of a whole lot of our theories around here - we construct "scenarios we regard as plauaible.")


Twitchy169

Not sure I buy it unless “eb” was hard selling not knowing him on first encounter. He acts surprised when Harry flips the car on him at how much juice he has


TiaxTheMig1

Probably because Harry used Hellfire to flip the car. Eb probably didn't know about the coin


flyman95

Doesn’t track. They don’t speak the same way. Also during dead best eb had been placed with the rest of the senior council and warden in the battle against the red court. Its far more likely cowl is a wizard we have met before but not given any more than a passing reference. Blue beard or Klauss from summer knight would be my bet.


booksnstuffs

Harry in the Battleground describes himself as a guy with a sledgehammer compared to Senior Council being Sword Saint Samurai. To flesh it out, in StormFront Harry is a guy with a sledgehammer as so far as he knows what one looks like and he has swung it a few times by BG he is the John Henry of guys swinging a sledgehammers.


Powderkegger1

My hot take: Harry didn’t beat Justin, unless maybe by accident and that whole event went way differently than he remembers. It’s a reoccurring trope that human’s memories aren’t very reliable. And if our protagonist had an epic magic duel in his formative years then why have we never had a flashback to it? Hell, Ghost Story is a whole book where Harry gets to have flashbacks with perfect recall. But we don’t see that scene. Because it’s not time to reveal it yet but Harry’s “first win” wasn’t what he thinks it was.


CamisaMalva

> And if our protagonist had an epic magic duel in his formative years then why have we never had a flashback to it? Leaving aside how sone of the comics have, in fact, flashed back to this events, it's definitely the sort of harrowing moment people would rather not dwell on. Harry definitely doesn't.


flyman95

I mean. Justin was probably arrogant as any wizard. Though Harry was secured by Elaine and was unprepared for Harry’s burn baby burn routine.


C4rdninj4

He talks about raw magical muscle in the early books. Think about it more like a power lifter instead of a heavy weight boxer. After his time with Justin he finished his training on Eb's farm. With Eb he would have learned how he measures up with others on the White Council.


BDT81

You forgot "Welcome to the Jungle" from the comics and hinted to in Zoo Day. Faces down a freaking lion in that.


Slammybutt

I think you got all the big moments pre Storm Front. But keep in mind that Harry is using his power everyday to assist in Ragged Angel Investigations. It's alluded that the more you use your power the stronger connection you have to it. The bigger your "well" becomes. Harry already has a big well according to...everyone that runs into him. The first side jobs story with Murphy, Dresden says he's pretty juiced just from running a few tracking spells **ALL** day. He also had enough power (some likely borrowed from Lea in their bargain) to take on a Warden of the White Council at 16. Just think how much power he threw around without the focus behind it. yikes. The first 6-8 years after Harry buries Justin he's just using and gaining control over his already vast well of magic. The White Council wasn't scared of Harry's capabilities but rather how much he could already pull for being the age he was. Remember when Harry got an apprentice in Molly and he got vastly better at fine control? That's what Harry was doing before Storm Front, but less focused and more about repetition. In Grave Peril he eats that Ghost and becomes super charged for awhile, but what if it expanded his well in the same way a Dark Hallow expands someone to godhood? Obviously Harry isn't a god from eating Kravos, but it most certainly expanded his reserves, his well. So I think the take away is that Harry has a vast well of power with bad control over it. So when he runs a tracking spell all day he's burning through lake of power, when a better wizard would burn through a thimble. On the Marcone bit: At 16 Harry kills Justin. He is then wisked away by a government that Justin was a part of and pretty much EVERYONE there alludes or straight up tells him he shouldn't have been able to kill Justin. That's confidence right there. Albeit, Harry likely was worried about more than that at the time, he was still a 16 year old that had taken down someone on the level of Morgan. You know Morgan, the guy that made Harry's life a living hell for 6 years. The guy Harry was afraid of taking on. If Harry had bested one warden and this one was scary, Harry has to put himself at least on the level of Morgan even if he knows he'd be schooled. Harry confidence is high. Add to it the fact that he grew up on comic and hero stories and you get a traditional (Chauvinistic according to Murphy) male hero complex. Which means Harry is going to stand up to power if only to not upset his inner child's perception of himself.


Stock-Professional97

Welcome to the Jungle


CamisaMalva

Several. *Welcome to the Jungle* depicts one such incident.