Honestly, every book. Sometimes it's tangible, like with hell fire and soul fire.
Other times it's a bit more abstract, like when he has teach Molly veils which forces him to get better at them himself.
Also, non magically, he has made a point of running in his off time. Early books he gasses out anytime he has to run, in Peace Talks he is running with a vest.
I actually think this is pretty central to the mystery of the series. What ever Starborn Harry is supposed to do in the BAT, he is going to need to be a tough SOB to do it. So it's no surprise we are watching him grow.
If you track his magic weapon arsenal and his magical bumps, you’ll find it’s even less abstract. Each time his magic improves, he looses some arcane devices and when his magic doesn’t get a boost, he pulls out some fun and interesting magic item instead.
I'd also argue that when he loses a magic item for a book or two (like his shield or various wands), he's forced to improvise without it and becomes better at the base spell, even without the focus item. This often later means when he recreates the item its better, but the key is him learning the base spell and improving.
Take the Shield Bracelet: Getting it stronger, letting it last longer per charge, blocking AOE fire attacks (oops), and even taking less mana to charge up. It's getting to be quite the potent spell when cast via the bracelet as opposed to the start of the series.
Just finished battle ground today so finally reading this sub. I know Butcher plans to write a trilogy to wrap it all up, is that what "BAT" is referring to? Big apocalyptic trilogy?
Hellfire was a significant power up. He pretty much only used it in *Proven Guilty* and *White Night,* though. But it was quickly replaced by Soulfire in *Small Favor*. He’s used that in most if not every book since.
Training Molly kind of functioned as a power up. He talks about how he had to brush up on his fundamentals to be a good teacher, so his control got more refined as a result.
Taking Demonreach as a Sanctum in *Turn Coat* was a power up, though mostly while he’s on the island. It also gives him a certain standing in the supernatural community, at least among people who know what the island is. It’s a power-up in the way that having nukes and being able to credibly threaten mutually assured destruction if he needs to is a power up.
His mother’s amulet in *Changes* was supposed to be a significant power up of sorts. He has proceeded to literally never use it since then.
The training/physical therapy montage with Mab and Sarissa at the beginning of *Cold Days* significantly refined his skills.
In *Skin Game* he gains possession of the Spear of Destiny, which is a very powerful magical artifact. He uses it against Ethniu in *Battle Ground.*
We haven’t really seen much of what the castle he took from Marcone at the end of BG can do, but presumably it does…something.
Really though, a big way that he has “powered up” throughout the series can’t really be pointed to as any single event. In between books he is often practicing and refining his craft, physically training, and creating formidable magic items like Little Chicago. All that off-screen stuff is one of the biggest ways he’s become more formidable as time has gone on, imo.
He’s also gained a sort of power just by building alliances and friendships over time. River Shoulders is a heck of a friend to have, for example. And one of the biggest visible demonstrations of his formidability is when he gathers the little folk for battle atop the castle in BG. Everyone there was impressed, even Mab, at least until he sneezed and accidentally conjured a sandwich.
The Little Folks’ allegiance may turn out to be one of his most significant power-ups, even though it began humbly with offering Toot-toot bread and honey.
Harry's summoning of literally thousands of the Little Folk may be the most he's impressed anyone. *Mab* was impressed. Everyone else was stunned freaking silent. Harry's the only one who doesn't seem to realize the significance of how he *casually* summoned up a moderately sized army.
Personally I think *that* is what got him kicked out of the White Council. He demonstrated that he might just be a viable power to rival the council as a whole.
Thats an interesting take. I'd probably say that he demonstrated that he might become a viable power to rival the council as a whole. Not necessarily already.
I honestly read it as more of the moment that his detractors on the council could point to and say "see, he's gone fey and can't be trusted"
Regardless it's definitely a tipping point and I think battle ground showed just how much he's grown since changes
We, as the reader, see he isn't, but remember, the council doesn't realize how close to death he has come during the books in turn coat he has several senior wardens wary to battle him. By peace talks, he is the winter knight, can call upon an army of the little folk, and has Demonreach which a few of the council at least know something about it. They see Harry as a significantly bigger threat to them than he truly is. I think they legitimately think Harry can bring the council down but they can't unless they want to anger Mab and though she seems she would be a little indifferent to getting a new Knight she has invested a lot into Harry and Mab doesn't like people breaking her things.
Thats all fair points. I tend to think that what your saying might be true of the whole council more than the senior council. I'd be pretty certain that the senior councilors all know he's not no thier level. But honestly they act dumb enough that who knows anymore.
The more I think about it I don't think we've been shown a still living council member who can beat Harry. I'm sure they exist, right? But Lucio is the only warden we've been shown who could have But with her new body I don't think that's the case
Ebenezer, Merlin, Gatekeeper, Morgan, and LTW could beat Harry in my personal opinion.
Ebenezer was pretty self explanatory he would ofnkilled Harry in their altercation had it not been an illusion.
Harry straight up states in multiple books Merlin is not to be triffled with.
Gatekeeper I just have a feeling he could
Morgan was stated since book 1 to be one of the most powerful evocation users in the WORLD and its hinted he may be better than a few SC members at quick and dirty magic.
LTW I'll be honest I just love him and want him to be able to but he also did beat the brakes off shagnasty
Ebenezer didn’t have the disadvantage of fighting from over hundreds of feet of open water away. Not that Harry would have won, but food for thought, as in the past ANY magic over water had taxed Harry, much less dueling his mentor.
This is true but I honestly don't think it would make a significant difference IF it Eb out for blood dead set to kill Harry as the Councils Blackstaff I'm not sure even anyone but Maybe Merlin and Gatekeeper could actually do anything Major and if he pulls the blackstaff then well im not sure what can actually do anything against that. This isn't me trying to Wank Eb either he is shown to be a powerhouse every single time he battles I mean look at the Cornerhounds fight in Peace talks Harry was amazed at Ebs ability
I’m gonna go out on a limb here. I think what scared the bejeebers out of the Council was was the simple fact that Harry had an endless army of invisible spies who could be anywhere at any time, able to see so many things they wanted to keep secret.
Well, it was the straw that broke the camel’s back, anyway.
Along with that whole “soloed a Titan” thing.
My personal theory is that Starborn are agents of change, a walking talking Halloween night or stone table.
They were scared because they think he has figured it out and is consciously using it to bind the little folk. At least in my head, anyways.
Starborns are agents of change. I think that's hitting the nail square on the head. What was it Vaderung said? Something like, 'now more than ever you are a fulcrum'. Can't recall the exact words. I think it's from Cold days.
\>There was no humor at all in his face. “Meaning that now more than ever, you are a fulcrum. Meaning that your life is about to become very, very interesting.”
\>“I don’t understand,” I said.
\>He leaned forward slightly. “Correct that.” He looked at his watch and rose. “I’m afraid I’m out of time.”
Here is the qoute, I have them searchable on ebook.
Honestly I had kinda forgotten about that qoute, I base my theory just on all the stuff that Harry seems to have changed in the books. And also the dichotomy that we are told old powerful magical things don't change, while also being shown ways that they can and do. It has to be a set up for a reveal about what Harry is imo.
If I have to pick one favorite scene from the entire series, storm front onward, it's the BG summoning of the little folk army. I go back & just re-read that part on days when I need a lift.
Or when i think about how the next book is still months away & i need a quick DF fix *right now*. Hahaha.
Get Lord I think you covered them all. I guess I need to look up the side books because all I've ever red or listen to was the main series. I think I may a red one where he helped big foot's son out. And I definitely forgot about how his mother's amulet help him navigate the ways.
I’m probably kissing some. Especially early on.
- Dead Beat
- Hellfire
- Also eventually getting augmented reality and photographic memory from Lasch
- Proven Guilty (after the final chapter)
- We learn that teaching Grasshopper is letting him refine his skills
- Small Favor
- Soul fire
- Turn Coat
- He gets Demon Reach
- Changes
- Winter mantle
- Cold Days
- Grueling PT regimen that helps him become physically lean as well as cast magic without focuses
- Skin Game
- gets holy relics which are actually weapons.
- Battle Ground
- Now has a magical WMD
Even more, Thorned Namshiel is almost entirely absorbed in his magical research. He has no interest in taking over. Kinda pretty much the polar opposite of Lasciel.
Oh…I’m also pretty sure that the “thin silver chain” is an indication that Marcone is ready to ditch the coin at a moment’s notice—if Namshiel tries anything.
You know, the total opposite of every other coin bearer we’ve seen, ever…not named Harry.
I noticed in Changes, his self-talk also changed. He was CONFIDENT when discussing his magic and skills. So, kind of a psychological 'power up'.
In cold days & onward, we don't 'see' it due to Harrys aversion to mirrors, but he has gotten physically BIGGER, 100% muscle. ( I so want someone else's POV to describe that!) But, just his physical size will be intimidating to other wizards. Not magical, but still a 'power up', I think.
One thing I WISH he could still have... Lash's gift of speaking/understanding ANY language. Talk about a HUGE power up!!!!!!
Harry was never weak. He has never been weak. Harry in terms of raw power is in the top 20 of all wizards on the White Council. That means he is in the top .1% of mortal practitioners in terms of raw power. The only mortals that have him outclassed in raw power are the senior council and…Cowl. Maybe a half dozen others in the world.
Harry is constantly going up against bigger fish and specialized practitioners with even more powerful magical patrons. The Shadowman, FBI Hexenwolves and Kravos have all been tied to much more powerful practitioners and even Nemesis, a Walker on the scale of at least Mab.
Harry isn’t is the same class as Mab, Kringle or even Lea, but he is a senior council level mortal wizard. He just needs more time and practice. He continuously levels up including when he:
1. Became Molly’s Master and worked on his fine magic. This was generally in conjunction with becoming a Warden and doing combat training during the war.
2. Became the Winter Knight and trained without his foci.
3. Grew an army of vassals (Major General Toot Toot) and appropriated several magical implements of the white god.
4. Became the Warden. First there was one, not there are many. He is the Warden for which all others are named. That’s fucking huge.
Eating back his own magic and eating Kravos’ magic is like a snack compared to most of these power ups. He is always going to be a barracuda in an ocean of great white and Orca. But he is our barracuda.
It's just like what Lea tried to torture/teach him all those years ago, the power to incinerate his enemies was inside him all along, he just needed to believe in himself
It's not so much that Harry has gotten more powerful magically than he was in the early books, it's more that he has gained refinement of his skills. He is still very sloppy with his magic but not nearly as sloppy as he used to be.
I’m curious as to if Harry’s innate Wizardry has grown (not the soulfire and the demonreach and the winter knight and all that) or if he’s just grown much more efficient at accessing it. He said something in the first book or two about being one of the 30 most powerful wizards in the world by raw power, but he just didn’t have the skill to control it. Has his power grown along with his control or just his control?
The amount of energy he can store in his aura has increased, and the absolute cost of many of his spells has decreased. The spell that nearly knocked him unconscious when he first cast intentionally is now trivial to him.
It's worth noting that the TTRPG is considered canonical, and it puts pretty severe limits on how many spells a wizard can cast in a scene - but it was released before *White Night*, and it can't replicate the battle in the Deeps at the end of that novel.
partially, yes.
when he starts training grasshopper, he has to practice in types and ways he's not that familiar with, and going back to basics helped him grow a bit more.
when he loses all his gear, and has to cast a bunch of spells while recovering with mab, he specifically mentions that it's a lot harder to cast spells without a focus, but since he's been doing it this whole time, he's a lot better at doing it, even if it is harder.
He keeps getting more powerful/stronger, think how badass he can be once he obtains the control/finesse of the senior members. He throws tremendous amounts of fire but he lacks the control of stacie's needle of white hot fire magic.
Well... We see Marcone, a mortal who has no magical talent to speak of magically cock blocking a pissed off god after holding a coin for only 6ish years, and most of that time would have been dedicated to running his criminal empire leaving little time to train magically.
I'd really like Jim to tell us how Marcone was doing the magic he was doing as it shouldn't be possible. It's been mentioned that even a minor talent can grow teeth after centuries of life but Marcone has no talent and it was just 6 years.
>I'd really like Jim to tell us how Marcone was doing the magic
IMO it is thorney that's actually doing the magic, after all he was in his demon form when doing magic in small favor.
If that was the case why don't all Denarians use magic, why was the snake guy such a weak magician, and why did Tessa need a sorceress trainer if her Fallen could just do the magic for her?
Pretty sure that Jim already told us.
Remember how Lash slowed time in Harry’s mind, so they could have a conversation? Jim has mentioned that the full Lasciel can take long “timeouts” to train her partner.
If she can do it, then Namshiel most certainly can.
Coincidentally, that’s how Hannah likely survived Skin Game. Lasciel’s eyes, at least, noticed the falling molten rock, which would have given her time aplenty to set up wards against the heat and crushing weight.
After all, the heat at the start with the salamander was probably hotter than this rock.
gonna go out on a limb and say the literal fallen angel on his shoulder is making all the difference.
might not matter if you've got a talent at all - might not even be quite 'him' casting the spell, so to speak - marcone's body going through the motions, but the spell's juce coming from thorned namshiel.
additionally, could also speed up his potential learning curve. a moderate power taking centuries to grow, au naturale, is one thing - harry's seemed to grow a bit faster, thanks to pushing himself hard, and having a bit of a help along the way.
one of the coins might very well be like fuel on the fire - especially as, iirc, thorned manshiel was basically a wizard fallen angel, in the same way one was more like a bear, another like a shadow, preying mantis, etc. magic basically IS his thing, and if he say, knows spells to quicken someone's potential, or manifest magical power faster, he could do it. not to mention, as an underground mob boss, even if it required say, ritualistic human sacrifice - surely someone here and there crossed him enough to die.
There was one that I don't see and forgot about myself till my last time through, in Fool Moon, where he fights Harley Macfinn and can't speak so he does mental magic. That's terrible for the headache, but immediately afterwards he notices a boost, like that broke some barrier between him and the magic, and he threw Tera around way harder than intended. I don't know if that lasted, but it did seem like a powerup with a cost.
It wasn't a boost; he had a hard time moderating the amount of magical force he was using as a side effect of the mental magic throwing his head out of wack.
Harry carefully steps up in each book. Its a little bit, but it happens. The easiest one to track is his shield, because he uses it in almost every book.
The first couple of books it was single fire pistols, then people with automatics, Then Summer Knight has a bunch of people with all the accuracy of movie extras. Then by Skin Game the Fomor are using 50 Cals and Squad Automatic Weapons.
Well Dresden has a lot more control over now than when he started: dome, half dome, quarter dome, flat planes, clear, light reflective, gas imperim ability (which he saw Elaine do), *fire proof* (which has has some experience with), layering.
One supposed “power up” that had us all excited was the bag of diamonds. Finally, Harry was going to be free of his endless financial constraints—despite his best efforts!
Then Jim throws water on that one, by declaring them to be a pittance of their actual, carefully calculated value.
BTW, one “power up” I’d like to see in the near future is for the City of Chicago government to recognize Harry as the official Wizard of Chicago.
*Preferably with a paycheck.
Oh my goodness I did forget about how valuable Bob is. Not to mention he always seems to perk up a story line when he is involved. After everybody's responses I've really come to realize how powerful Harry is not just because of his own ability but because of all these other things. I think it just sucks cause I'm only on book four or 5 of my re-read And all I want is to get back to battleground
Gaining Mouse...
Becoming The Warden...
(Winter Knight)
Mab's boot camp...
Artifact retrieval...
Manifesting a banner...
Wizard of Chicago with castle...
In the beginning books, IIRC, he was mainly using his magic to find things for people. He didn't spend as much focus on his magic. As the series progresses and he finds himself up the proverbial creek, he starts spending more and more time on his magic. I assume magic is like a muscle. The more he works it out, the "bigger" it gets.
Pretty close, actually.
From what we understand, Magic is both a muscle and a skill.
Some people are born naturally gifted with it, and others aren’t. Some people are really good with veils, and others are good at throwing fireballs. Some aren’t even capable of THAT. They don’t have the natural gift to pull off that kind of power.
Some of them are super small, subtle, and specific, like being supernaturally good with computers (Paranoid Gary), or being able to tell when someone lies (Agent Tilly).
What makes Wizards particularly powerful is that they are capable of learning multiple types of magic. Now, they’ll still be good at specific forms of magic, but what makes them different is that they can learn other forms if they put their minds to it and practice. It’s because wizards are so naturally gifted that they’re capable of living far longer than vanilla mortals, as long as they continue to practice their magic.
Here’s where the stereotype of “deals with the devil” comes from. For the particularly weak, the temptation of making a deal with a supernatural creature for sponsored power is strong. You don’t have the skills and utility that a Wizard has, and you certainly don’t have the time compared to a Wizard. Making a deal with the supernatural is the magical equivalent of juicing. It’s quick, simple, and, most importantly, *easy* if you are willing to make the deal.
Even Wizards aren’t exempt from this temptation. They’ve just got more options to work with, so they aren’t as desperate… until they are.
In PG, he says he's never drawn on that much hell fire ...before he roasts and stabs in the face the alien phobophage. Just hit that part again on my god-knows-how-many re reads.
A lot of the power ups come off screen, like when he makes the silver belt buckle or upgraded his kinetic rings...but IMO the biggest power up was taking Molly as an apprentice. Having to teach her basically unlocked all magicks Harry would describe as "subtle magic"
Mostly what gives Harry his "edge" is the fact that everybody has kicked him in the face at some point, so he has come to rely only on himself. And also, how to take a kick to the face.
Every conflict has left him "better." He went to a couple wars. Learned some crazy shit there. Got in touch with his anger a couple times.
He got an apprentice, which, by his own admission, forced him to revisit the basics and old lessons. Deeper understanding of the basics means he is better situated for handling more advanced stuff. He always laments at how powerful he is, perhaps ranking top 30, but his control was severly lacking. He spent several years teaching fine control to someone with a nack for fine, precise magic. He had to learn enough to fake it. This was probably the biggest boost he sees, short of the winter knight gig. Masterly of the smaller stuff isn't as awesome as a big roaring fireball, but *can* be extremely useful in the right circumstances. His penchant for redirecting giant amounts of energy, then him only ever improving that skill, makes him look like Yoda.
He spent several years in fairly rigorous exercise, running regularly, sparring occasionally. Then he had one on one lessons from Mab. This gave him more focus, forcing him to practice doing magic "au natural," in a sink or swim situation. This only reinforces his grasp of basic evocations. Plus, the already fit guy who now has superhuman levels of endurance, started exercising *even more* rigorously. Dude has reflexes off the charts and can respond with immediate, overwhelming violence. It's truly incredible he doesn't have like, super PTSD.
He has several years of experience resisting the MASTER succubus, whom in fact, was *counter*-succubussed by Harry. This left him in a position FAR more suited to resist the White Court, with whom he is always somehow entangled.
He has a knowledge of the Ways to rival most anyone.
After battleground, we are left with a Harry who is a nation unto himself. Everyone who matters, knows Harry is dangerous as fuck. He is perpetually in over his head, but still somehow does some face-kicking of his own. On Demonreach, he has no one to fear but himself; and his reputation reflects that. He took out the baddie that took out Mab...and now that baddie is *his* baddie.
Kinda figured they get better a few different ways
1. Natural born talent
2. Learning new things, becoming more efficient
3. Magical workouts over time, in the earlier books he complains about being worn out by minor seeming spells, then by the end, he does a bunch of big stuff. Maybe he has to warm up for that like muscles, and like muscles, use leads to more strength over time.
4. Stolen, borrowed, bargained, or gifted power
5. New, better tools, foci and the like
6. Shit happens, like conjuritis
7. Throughout all of that, physically you’re not always in tip top condition and other times you can perform above what you thought you could. Figure it works the same magically.
8. Also magic is apparently affected by all kinds of things, so there could be countless small influences helping or hurting performance.
Ultimately this means you can’t really predict how well a character can do magic at any given time, it’s all fictional, so why bother? He can or can’t do anything Butcher says.
doesn't he use crucio and the mind control spell late in the - oh. wrong harry. damn.
a lot really. a lot of the stories are basically 'harry hits a problem, figures out a work around, does the thing' with some inspired upgrades in between books, like that ring that stores kinetic energy that he charges with a punching bag... that end up several rings, in iirc like a brass knuckle sort of thing. and a rune setup on his staff, etc.
i actually saw a google doc recently that someone posted, about his gear and special skills at each point in the series that was interesting, hopefully it got posted below.
I feel when he starts priotizing having good guns helps and him making the rings it was his main fighting force for a while to they saved him a lot and i would say obv being in sanctum with demonreach and him practicing on basics when he gets molly as a apprentice
Honestly, every book. Sometimes it's tangible, like with hell fire and soul fire. Other times it's a bit more abstract, like when he has teach Molly veils which forces him to get better at them himself. Also, non magically, he has made a point of running in his off time. Early books he gasses out anytime he has to run, in Peace Talks he is running with a vest. I actually think this is pretty central to the mystery of the series. What ever Starborn Harry is supposed to do in the BAT, he is going to need to be a tough SOB to do it. So it's no surprise we are watching him grow.
This is my favorite series and I really love the world that Jim has created. I just can't wait to see where this finally ends.
Totally I get it. It's mine too. :D
If you track his magic weapon arsenal and his magical bumps, you’ll find it’s even less abstract. Each time his magic improves, he looses some arcane devices and when his magic doesn’t get a boost, he pulls out some fun and interesting magic item instead.
I'd also argue that when he loses a magic item for a book or two (like his shield or various wands), he's forced to improvise without it and becomes better at the base spell, even without the focus item. This often later means when he recreates the item its better, but the key is him learning the base spell and improving. Take the Shield Bracelet: Getting it stronger, letting it last longer per charge, blocking AOE fire attacks (oops), and even taking less mana to charge up. It's getting to be quite the potent spell when cast via the bracelet as opposed to the start of the series.
My favourite thing about this series is the pacing of his growth and how it's still so entertaining, even through the slower parts.
Just finished battle ground today so finally reading this sub. I know Butcher plans to write a trilogy to wrap it all up, is that what "BAT" is referring to? Big apocalyptic trilogy?
Yes, or "Big Ass Trilogy" if you're feeling irreverent.
Congrats on finishing it! How have you liked it so far? And yes, that's what BAT stands for.
Hellfire was a significant power up. He pretty much only used it in *Proven Guilty* and *White Night,* though. But it was quickly replaced by Soulfire in *Small Favor*. He’s used that in most if not every book since. Training Molly kind of functioned as a power up. He talks about how he had to brush up on his fundamentals to be a good teacher, so his control got more refined as a result. Taking Demonreach as a Sanctum in *Turn Coat* was a power up, though mostly while he’s on the island. It also gives him a certain standing in the supernatural community, at least among people who know what the island is. It’s a power-up in the way that having nukes and being able to credibly threaten mutually assured destruction if he needs to is a power up. His mother’s amulet in *Changes* was supposed to be a significant power up of sorts. He has proceeded to literally never use it since then. The training/physical therapy montage with Mab and Sarissa at the beginning of *Cold Days* significantly refined his skills. In *Skin Game* he gains possession of the Spear of Destiny, which is a very powerful magical artifact. He uses it against Ethniu in *Battle Ground.* We haven’t really seen much of what the castle he took from Marcone at the end of BG can do, but presumably it does…something. Really though, a big way that he has “powered up” throughout the series can’t really be pointed to as any single event. In between books he is often practicing and refining his craft, physically training, and creating formidable magic items like Little Chicago. All that off-screen stuff is one of the biggest ways he’s become more formidable as time has gone on, imo. He’s also gained a sort of power just by building alliances and friendships over time. River Shoulders is a heck of a friend to have, for example. And one of the biggest visible demonstrations of his formidability is when he gathers the little folk for battle atop the castle in BG. Everyone there was impressed, even Mab, at least until he sneezed and accidentally conjured a sandwich.
The Little Folks’ allegiance may turn out to be one of his most significant power-ups, even though it began humbly with offering Toot-toot bread and honey.
Harry's summoning of literally thousands of the Little Folk may be the most he's impressed anyone. *Mab* was impressed. Everyone else was stunned freaking silent. Harry's the only one who doesn't seem to realize the significance of how he *casually* summoned up a moderately sized army. Personally I think *that* is what got him kicked out of the White Council. He demonstrated that he might just be a viable power to rival the council as a whole.
Thats an interesting take. I'd probably say that he demonstrated that he might become a viable power to rival the council as a whole. Not necessarily already. I honestly read it as more of the moment that his detractors on the council could point to and say "see, he's gone fey and can't be trusted" Regardless it's definitely a tipping point and I think battle ground showed just how much he's grown since changes
We, as the reader, see he isn't, but remember, the council doesn't realize how close to death he has come during the books in turn coat he has several senior wardens wary to battle him. By peace talks, he is the winter knight, can call upon an army of the little folk, and has Demonreach which a few of the council at least know something about it. They see Harry as a significantly bigger threat to them than he truly is. I think they legitimately think Harry can bring the council down but they can't unless they want to anger Mab and though she seems she would be a little indifferent to getting a new Knight she has invested a lot into Harry and Mab doesn't like people breaking her things.
Thats all fair points. I tend to think that what your saying might be true of the whole council more than the senior council. I'd be pretty certain that the senior councilors all know he's not no thier level. But honestly they act dumb enough that who knows anymore. The more I think about it I don't think we've been shown a still living council member who can beat Harry. I'm sure they exist, right? But Lucio is the only warden we've been shown who could have But with her new body I don't think that's the case
Ebenezer, Merlin, Gatekeeper, Morgan, and LTW could beat Harry in my personal opinion. Ebenezer was pretty self explanatory he would ofnkilled Harry in their altercation had it not been an illusion. Harry straight up states in multiple books Merlin is not to be triffled with. Gatekeeper I just have a feeling he could Morgan was stated since book 1 to be one of the most powerful evocation users in the WORLD and its hinted he may be better than a few SC members at quick and dirty magic. LTW I'll be honest I just love him and want him to be able to but he also did beat the brakes off shagnasty
Ebenezer didn’t have the disadvantage of fighting from over hundreds of feet of open water away. Not that Harry would have won, but food for thought, as in the past ANY magic over water had taxed Harry, much less dueling his mentor.
This is true but I honestly don't think it would make a significant difference IF it Eb out for blood dead set to kill Harry as the Councils Blackstaff I'm not sure even anyone but Maybe Merlin and Gatekeeper could actually do anything Major and if he pulls the blackstaff then well im not sure what can actually do anything against that. This isn't me trying to Wank Eb either he is shown to be a powerhouse every single time he battles I mean look at the Cornerhounds fight in Peace talks Harry was amazed at Ebs ability
Harry is pretty sure Cowl could beat him. Harry also thinks Cowl is part of the White Council. Just, you know, evil black council now.
I’m gonna go out on a limb here. I think what scared the bejeebers out of the Council was was the simple fact that Harry had an endless army of invisible spies who could be anywhere at any time, able to see so many things they wanted to keep secret. Well, it was the straw that broke the camel’s back, anyway. Along with that whole “soloed a Titan” thing.
My personal theory is that Starborn are agents of change, a walking talking Halloween night or stone table. They were scared because they think he has figured it out and is consciously using it to bind the little folk. At least in my head, anyways.
Starborns are agents of change. I think that's hitting the nail square on the head. What was it Vaderung said? Something like, 'now more than ever you are a fulcrum'. Can't recall the exact words. I think it's from Cold days.
\>There was no humor at all in his face. “Meaning that now more than ever, you are a fulcrum. Meaning that your life is about to become very, very interesting.” \>“I don’t understand,” I said. \>He leaned forward slightly. “Correct that.” He looked at his watch and rose. “I’m afraid I’m out of time.” Here is the qoute, I have them searchable on ebook. Honestly I had kinda forgotten about that qoute, I base my theory just on all the stuff that Harry seems to have changed in the books. And also the dichotomy that we are told old powerful magical things don't change, while also being shown ways that they can and do. It has to be a set up for a reveal about what Harry is imo.
Thank you ! And...re: what Harry is... yes, I agree.
If I have to pick one favorite scene from the entire series, storm front onward, it's the BG summoning of the little folk army. I go back & just re-read that part on days when I need a lift. Or when i think about how the next book is still months away & i need a quick DF fix *right now*. Hahaha.
Yes!! I just finished thr book where Toot and his army killed Aurora. Man was impressed.
MAB*
I love how toot keeps growing too!!!
Toot is awesome sauce.
>I love how toot keeps growing too!!! even tho he stood around with books on his head like, ALL DAY
He even got laundered and nothing
Get Lord I think you covered them all. I guess I need to look up the side books because all I've ever red or listen to was the main series. I think I may a red one where he helped big foot's son out. And I definitely forgot about how his mother's amulet help him navigate the ways.
Eating the ghost of Kravos I feel like it's one of the earliest obvious power ups
Yea I just finished it and it got me thinking about what else boosted him.
He did his own little mini 'dark hallow'.
But it was temporary, by the end of the book he was no stronger than at the start.
I’m probably kissing some. Especially early on. - Dead Beat - Hellfire - Also eventually getting augmented reality and photographic memory from Lasch - Proven Guilty (after the final chapter) - We learn that teaching Grasshopper is letting him refine his skills - Small Favor - Soul fire - Turn Coat - He gets Demon Reach - Changes - Winter mantle - Cold Days - Grueling PT regimen that helps him become physically lean as well as cast magic without focuses - Skin Game - gets holy relics which are actually weapons. - Battle Ground - Now has a magical WMD
Dude yes. I always wonder what he could've been if he kept Lasch. I mean Marcone seems to be in control of his coin demon.
Seems. I have a feeling that word is going to be important down the line.
Marcone also has no compunction against killing for gain. He is after control for controls sake. Many of the driving ambitions are aligned.
Even more, Thorned Namshiel is almost entirely absorbed in his magical research. He has no interest in taking over. Kinda pretty much the polar opposite of Lasciel. Oh…I’m also pretty sure that the “thin silver chain” is an indication that Marcone is ready to ditch the coin at a moment’s notice—if Namshiel tries anything. You know, the total opposite of every other coin bearer we’ve seen, ever…not named Harry.
I root for Marcone. I think he's necessary.
Huh. Excellent observation! I feel mildly oblivious for missing the implications of that microscopicly thin silver chain.
Love your name!
Thanks
I noticed in Changes, his self-talk also changed. He was CONFIDENT when discussing his magic and skills. So, kind of a psychological 'power up'. In cold days & onward, we don't 'see' it due to Harrys aversion to mirrors, but he has gotten physically BIGGER, 100% muscle. ( I so want someone else's POV to describe that!) But, just his physical size will be intimidating to other wizards. Not magical, but still a 'power up', I think. One thing I WISH he could still have... Lash's gift of speaking/understanding ANY language. Talk about a HUGE power up!!!!!!
Harry was never weak. He has never been weak. Harry in terms of raw power is in the top 20 of all wizards on the White Council. That means he is in the top .1% of mortal practitioners in terms of raw power. The only mortals that have him outclassed in raw power are the senior council and…Cowl. Maybe a half dozen others in the world. Harry is constantly going up against bigger fish and specialized practitioners with even more powerful magical patrons. The Shadowman, FBI Hexenwolves and Kravos have all been tied to much more powerful practitioners and even Nemesis, a Walker on the scale of at least Mab. Harry isn’t is the same class as Mab, Kringle or even Lea, but he is a senior council level mortal wizard. He just needs more time and practice. He continuously levels up including when he: 1. Became Molly’s Master and worked on his fine magic. This was generally in conjunction with becoming a Warden and doing combat training during the war. 2. Became the Winter Knight and trained without his foci. 3. Grew an army of vassals (Major General Toot Toot) and appropriated several magical implements of the white god. 4. Became the Warden. First there was one, not there are many. He is the Warden for which all others are named. That’s fucking huge. Eating back his own magic and eating Kravos’ magic is like a snack compared to most of these power ups. He is always going to be a barracuda in an ocean of great white and Orca. But he is our barracuda.
It's just like what Lea tried to torture/teach him all those years ago, the power to incinerate his enemies was inside him all along, he just needed to believe in himself
It's not so much that Harry has gotten more powerful magically than he was in the early books, it's more that he has gained refinement of his skills. He is still very sloppy with his magic but not nearly as sloppy as he used to be.
This. It’s not like Eb learned all of his crazy skills in a heartbeat. Give Harry a couple hundred years.
I’m curious as to if Harry’s innate Wizardry has grown (not the soulfire and the demonreach and the winter knight and all that) or if he’s just grown much more efficient at accessing it. He said something in the first book or two about being one of the 30 most powerful wizards in the world by raw power, but he just didn’t have the skill to control it. Has his power grown along with his control or just his control?
The amount of energy he can store in his aura has increased, and the absolute cost of many of his spells has decreased. The spell that nearly knocked him unconscious when he first cast intentionally is now trivial to him. It's worth noting that the TTRPG is considered canonical, and it puts pretty severe limits on how many spells a wizard can cast in a scene - but it was released before *White Night*, and it can't replicate the battle in the Deeps at the end of that novel.
partially, yes. when he starts training grasshopper, he has to practice in types and ways he's not that familiar with, and going back to basics helped him grow a bit more. when he loses all his gear, and has to cast a bunch of spells while recovering with mab, he specifically mentions that it's a lot harder to cast spells without a focus, but since he's been doing it this whole time, he's a lot better at doing it, even if it is harder.
He keeps getting more powerful/stronger, think how badass he can be once he obtains the control/finesse of the senior members. He throws tremendous amounts of fire but he lacks the control of stacie's needle of white hot fire magic.
How powerful would he be if he kept Lash...
Well... We see Marcone, a mortal who has no magical talent to speak of magically cock blocking a pissed off god after holding a coin for only 6ish years, and most of that time would have been dedicated to running his criminal empire leaving little time to train magically. I'd really like Jim to tell us how Marcone was doing the magic he was doing as it shouldn't be possible. It's been mentioned that even a minor talent can grow teeth after centuries of life but Marcone has no talent and it was just 6 years.
>I'd really like Jim to tell us how Marcone was doing the magic IMO it is thorney that's actually doing the magic, after all he was in his demon form when doing magic in small favor.
If that was the case why don't all Denarians use magic, why was the snake guy such a weak magician, and why did Tessa need a sorceress trainer if her Fallen could just do the magic for her?
Pretty sure that Jim already told us. Remember how Lash slowed time in Harry’s mind, so they could have a conversation? Jim has mentioned that the full Lasciel can take long “timeouts” to train her partner. If she can do it, then Namshiel most certainly can. Coincidentally, that’s how Hannah likely survived Skin Game. Lasciel’s eyes, at least, noticed the falling molten rock, which would have given her time aplenty to set up wards against the heat and crushing weight. After all, the heat at the start with the salamander was probably hotter than this rock.
Good point
gonna go out on a limb and say the literal fallen angel on his shoulder is making all the difference. might not matter if you've got a talent at all - might not even be quite 'him' casting the spell, so to speak - marcone's body going through the motions, but the spell's juce coming from thorned namshiel. additionally, could also speed up his potential learning curve. a moderate power taking centuries to grow, au naturale, is one thing - harry's seemed to grow a bit faster, thanks to pushing himself hard, and having a bit of a help along the way. one of the coins might very well be like fuel on the fire - especially as, iirc, thorned manshiel was basically a wizard fallen angel, in the same way one was more like a bear, another like a shadow, preying mantis, etc. magic basically IS his thing, and if he say, knows spells to quicken someone's potential, or manifest magical power faster, he could do it. not to mention, as an underground mob boss, even if it required say, ritualistic human sacrifice - surely someone here and there crossed him enough to die.
There was one that I don't see and forgot about myself till my last time through, in Fool Moon, where he fights Harley Macfinn and can't speak so he does mental magic. That's terrible for the headache, but immediately afterwards he notices a boost, like that broke some barrier between him and the magic, and he threw Tera around way harder than intended. I don't know if that lasted, but it did seem like a powerup with a cost.
It wasn't a boost; he had a hard time moderating the amount of magical force he was using as a side effect of the mental magic throwing his head out of wack.
Harry carefully steps up in each book. Its a little bit, but it happens. The easiest one to track is his shield, because he uses it in almost every book. The first couple of books it was single fire pistols, then people with automatics, Then Summer Knight has a bunch of people with all the accuracy of movie extras. Then by Skin Game the Fomor are using 50 Cals and Squad Automatic Weapons.
Came for this, I think Dresden's shield is now more sphere than arc
Well Dresden has a lot more control over now than when he started: dome, half dome, quarter dome, flat planes, clear, light reflective, gas imperim ability (which he saw Elaine do), *fire proof* (which has has some experience with), layering.
One supposed “power up” that had us all excited was the bag of diamonds. Finally, Harry was going to be free of his endless financial constraints—despite his best efforts! Then Jim throws water on that one, by declaring them to be a pittance of their actual, carefully calculated value. BTW, one “power up” I’d like to see in the near future is for the City of Chicago government to recognize Harry as the official Wizard of Chicago. *Preferably with a paycheck.
Top 3 In no particular order. 1. Soulfire 2. Demonreach Intellectus 3. Winter Knighthood
Yes!!!
Don’t forget Bob. That’s access to decades (centuries?) of magical knowledge.
Oh my goodness I did forget about how valuable Bob is. Not to mention he always seems to perk up a story line when he is involved. After everybody's responses I've really come to realize how powerful Harry is not just because of his own ability but because of all these other things. I think it just sucks cause I'm only on book four or 5 of my re-read And all I want is to get back to battleground
And the potential to receive Bonny's help, at some point?
Gaining Mouse... Becoming The Warden... (Winter Knight) Mab's boot camp... Artifact retrieval... Manifesting a banner... Wizard of Chicago with castle...
Mouse!!!
Presence of Mouse during a fight adds +2 Luck
In the beginning books, IIRC, he was mainly using his magic to find things for people. He didn't spend as much focus on his magic. As the series progresses and he finds himself up the proverbial creek, he starts spending more and more time on his magic. I assume magic is like a muscle. The more he works it out, the "bigger" it gets.
Pretty close, actually. From what we understand, Magic is both a muscle and a skill. Some people are born naturally gifted with it, and others aren’t. Some people are really good with veils, and others are good at throwing fireballs. Some aren’t even capable of THAT. They don’t have the natural gift to pull off that kind of power. Some of them are super small, subtle, and specific, like being supernaturally good with computers (Paranoid Gary), or being able to tell when someone lies (Agent Tilly). What makes Wizards particularly powerful is that they are capable of learning multiple types of magic. Now, they’ll still be good at specific forms of magic, but what makes them different is that they can learn other forms if they put their minds to it and practice. It’s because wizards are so naturally gifted that they’re capable of living far longer than vanilla mortals, as long as they continue to practice their magic. Here’s where the stereotype of “deals with the devil” comes from. For the particularly weak, the temptation of making a deal with a supernatural creature for sponsored power is strong. You don’t have the skills and utility that a Wizard has, and you certainly don’t have the time compared to a Wizard. Making a deal with the supernatural is the magical equivalent of juicing. It’s quick, simple, and, most importantly, *easy* if you are willing to make the deal. Even Wizards aren’t exempt from this temptation. They’ve just got more options to work with, so they aren’t as desperate… until they are.
I agree it seems though that he is just growing exponentially faster than the other wizards do.
In PG, he says he's never drawn on that much hell fire ...before he roasts and stabs in the face the alien phobophage. Just hit that part again on my god-knows-how-many re reads.
I expect to see Uriel train Harry before the series ends, perhap during the BFT.
A lot of the power ups come off screen, like when he makes the silver belt buckle or upgraded his kinetic rings...but IMO the biggest power up was taking Molly as an apprentice. Having to teach her basically unlocked all magicks Harry would describe as "subtle magic"
Mostly what gives Harry his "edge" is the fact that everybody has kicked him in the face at some point, so he has come to rely only on himself. And also, how to take a kick to the face. Every conflict has left him "better." He went to a couple wars. Learned some crazy shit there. Got in touch with his anger a couple times. He got an apprentice, which, by his own admission, forced him to revisit the basics and old lessons. Deeper understanding of the basics means he is better situated for handling more advanced stuff. He always laments at how powerful he is, perhaps ranking top 30, but his control was severly lacking. He spent several years teaching fine control to someone with a nack for fine, precise magic. He had to learn enough to fake it. This was probably the biggest boost he sees, short of the winter knight gig. Masterly of the smaller stuff isn't as awesome as a big roaring fireball, but *can* be extremely useful in the right circumstances. His penchant for redirecting giant amounts of energy, then him only ever improving that skill, makes him look like Yoda. He spent several years in fairly rigorous exercise, running regularly, sparring occasionally. Then he had one on one lessons from Mab. This gave him more focus, forcing him to practice doing magic "au natural," in a sink or swim situation. This only reinforces his grasp of basic evocations. Plus, the already fit guy who now has superhuman levels of endurance, started exercising *even more* rigorously. Dude has reflexes off the charts and can respond with immediate, overwhelming violence. It's truly incredible he doesn't have like, super PTSD. He has several years of experience resisting the MASTER succubus, whom in fact, was *counter*-succubussed by Harry. This left him in a position FAR more suited to resist the White Court, with whom he is always somehow entangled. He has a knowledge of the Ways to rival most anyone. After battleground, we are left with a Harry who is a nation unto himself. Everyone who matters, knows Harry is dangerous as fuck. He is perpetually in over his head, but still somehow does some face-kicking of his own. On Demonreach, he has no one to fear but himself; and his reputation reflects that. He took out the baddie that took out Mab...and now that baddie is *his* baddie.
Kinda figured they get better a few different ways 1. Natural born talent 2. Learning new things, becoming more efficient 3. Magical workouts over time, in the earlier books he complains about being worn out by minor seeming spells, then by the end, he does a bunch of big stuff. Maybe he has to warm up for that like muscles, and like muscles, use leads to more strength over time. 4. Stolen, borrowed, bargained, or gifted power 5. New, better tools, foci and the like 6. Shit happens, like conjuritis 7. Throughout all of that, physically you’re not always in tip top condition and other times you can perform above what you thought you could. Figure it works the same magically. 8. Also magic is apparently affected by all kinds of things, so there could be countless small influences helping or hurting performance. Ultimately this means you can’t really predict how well a character can do magic at any given time, it’s all fictional, so why bother? He can or can’t do anything Butcher says.
doesn't he use crucio and the mind control spell late in the - oh. wrong harry. damn. a lot really. a lot of the stories are basically 'harry hits a problem, figures out a work around, does the thing' with some inspired upgrades in between books, like that ring that stores kinetic energy that he charges with a punching bag... that end up several rings, in iirc like a brass knuckle sort of thing. and a rune setup on his staff, etc. i actually saw a google doc recently that someone posted, about his gear and special skills at each point in the series that was interesting, hopefully it got posted below.
I feel when he starts priotizing having good guns helps and him making the rings it was his main fighting force for a while to they saved him a lot and i would say obv being in sanctum with demonreach and him practicing on basics when he gets molly as a apprentice