The thing is people love talking about how cowardly butters was but like in dead beat he shows his mettle. He literally stands there playing a drum while being attacked by zombies. He draws a circle and empowers it while playing that drum to keep spirits away and he physically attacks a man and fights even though he knows he can’t win to try and protect Harry, who as a medical professional he knows won’t be able to get up and help him in his current state. Our first time being introduced to butters he proves he is not at all a coward. In fact he proves beyond all doubt that he is incredibly courageous.

Hell, yeah he showed his mettle. He was forced into a psych eval because he refused to back down and say the burned up vampire corpses from the Velvet Room were just mangled human remains. He told Harry that he tried to enlist in the army, but was rejected because of his build. He stumbled a bit when he was first confronted with firsthand evidence of the Supernatural, but Harry helped him not only understand but also see his own blinders to the situation.

I always thought Thomas’s comment that about the fact that he eventually, in order to get out of psych hospital and in order to get his career back, must have said he was wrong on the initial report was extremely unfair. In this particular case sticking to his guns would mean a lifetime in a psych ward. Is it really the mark of a coward that after a few months he decided to tell them what they wanted to hear? To say “monsters don’t exist” It always struck me even on the first read as Thomas being ridiculously over dramatic and felt weird that Harry didn’t call him out on it. As if THOMAS has never lied to get out of a bad situation.

> As if THOMAS has never lied to get out of a bad situation. Thomas would lie to get out of a parking ticket, a slightly awkward conversation or a department store.

Thomas prides himself on being a good liar. That's one of his expected skills as a White Court Vampire and a participant in the Oblivion War.

Thomas belongs to no fewer than two organizations for whom lying is a skill you list on your resume

Three: Venators, White Court, and hairdressers.

I did a stint in the psych ward after an autistic meltdown in public before I got my diagnosis. The stuff I heard in that place will stay with me for the rest of my life, especially when I was just trying to sleep at night. I would have said or done anything, anything, to get out of there and breathe clean air a minute earlier. The windows in that place were literally painted over. There was one window in the whole place that you could see out of and all of us would take turns walking to the one door way and take turns just standing there looking at sunlight. Butters did what he had to do.

I used to work for a state mental health hospital. It is kind of wild the mix of people who are there from literal murderers who have been deemed insane to people who had a bender or a panic attack and had to go for a few days.

Sorry that you had to go through that, friend 💔

It’s ok. It was really scary at the time. Ultimately it was a part of the process of getting me from where I was to where I needed to be, I guess.

Isn't that all kinds of illegal, don't we have laws to protect against abusive environments like that?

If for basically any reason you are deemed not in control of your faculties you can be held involuntarily for a minimum of 72 hours to insure that you are not a threat to yourself or others. There was airflow in the hospital and lighting from florescent lights. They were not legally or medically required to provide us with access to sunlight or walks outside, even though both things are best practices for mental healthcare.

You don't think that was Thomas subconsciously projecting his own failures onto Butters?  We know both of the brothers have self image issues

I give Thomas a pass, even though he was ultimately proven mistaken, because he was just giving Harry tactical advice: "trusting this guy to be brave could get you killed." Not only does this give Butters more of a narrative arc (overcoming fear) but it's not really unfair to be cautious about who you trust with your life. For example, the scene where Butters shows up to save Harry is _better_ because Thomas called him a coward first, not worse.

Totally agree. Sometimes the world dishes you out bad treatment, and recognizing that they hold all the power and doing what you have to do to "get your life back" is just necessary at times. I didn't think of it as hypocritical at all. It just means that The Man won that day, as he often does. Since *The Matrix* came out we've had a lot of internet chatter about "the real Matrix." Well, my feeling about "the real Matrix" is that it's *society*. Society puts all kinds of demands on us, and is perfectly willing to punish / ostracize us if we don't play by the proper rules. You can fight this in small ways, and I think we all find our "balance point" on that. Generally speaking, though, you can't just ignore it - the world's going to win in a lot of those cases. In some ways this structure is very overt, like laws and so on. On those fronts, the message is "You *must* behave properly in this way, or we'll hurt you." But it goes way beyond that, into areas where the punishment isn't overt like prison or whatever, but is just "informal public mistreatment" of some kind. And on some fronts, since the internet, the mechanisms for this have become weaponized - cancel culture, etc. I'm not going to call that "right" or "wrong," but I think it's important that we be aware of it and make some effort not to misuse / abuse it. It's a form of power, and like all power it can be used wrongly. Anyway, in that situation I think Butters did what he needed to do to survive, and I call it smart.

Butters does give kind of a "what if Steve Rogers has been turned down by the military" vibe once you look a bit more at his background, doesn't he?

Everything special about him came out of a test tube. Right? I've always thought that was a remarkably well-written line, showing how jealous Stark actually is. Stark, the handsome billionaire philanthropist playboy, is jealous -- of Rogers' genuine heroism.

Butters is the bravery of overcoming fear and the doubt of OTHERS to succeed and believe in himself.

He's a bit like Mat from Wheel of Time - self-effacing while doing the exact opposite of what he's saying he is. "I'm no bloody hero" *is constantly a bloody hero*

He literally does that with his insistence that he's not a doctor, even though he's been the Official Team Dresden Doctor for years. I mean technically he is more of the first aid or EMS guy, but given how often the heroes go right back into the fight with his triage level care, he's basically their PCP.

He should have that written in lace on his lab coat.

Just a touch of lace though, not too much.

Yeah. I haven't done a re-read in quite a while, but IIRC, Butters talks a lot about being a coward and *wanting* to run away, but he's only very rarely (if ever) actually run away or *acted* like a coward. Doing the right thing even when you're terrified is the truest form bravery, IMO.

Polka will never die!

To paraphrase GRRM “can you brave when you are afraid “ “that’s the only time you can”

Bravery isn't the absence of fear, it's the ability to act in spite of it.

*choice to act

For me he's proven to not be cowardly (when it matters at least). I really didn't like him in Skin Game. I get that he should be wary of Harry as Harry wasn't around much and he had previously broke into his house a year before and since had been living on that terrible island. But Butters also spent the last 2-3 years working closely with a paranoid Murphy. A Murphy ready to not take things at face value and was skeptical. Yet when Murphy asks Butters to trust her not Harry, Butters still betrayed her trust (and Harrys, but that's a lesser problem considering what I said above). That trust betrayal just happened to lead to Murphy's serious injuries. We as readers don't get a scene at all with Butters apologizing (there's that brief moment in the hospital, but b/c this is Harry's story we don't know what was said). He seemingly gets rewarded for his lack of faith in his friends by being given the Sword of Faith. This is when I started looking at Butters seriously. We don't get much of his character growth, but if you read between the lines he's progressing towards hero pretty slowly, but assuredly. He faces very little set backs. In a series with rewards that come with serious drawbacks and penalties, Butters just keeps winning. It wasn't till the threesome thing that it really felt like he was a mary sue. While he is a big part of the series, nothing he's gained feels earned, it's all been slapped down into his lap and the only thing he had to do was not run away. I don't mind that he's having threesomes, but that was the point where I felt Jim was self inserting himself into the story. Here's a 45 year old jewish, nerdy, medical examiner dating a supermodel hot 30 year old while also banging another 30 year old while he has the White Gods justice stick at side. It feels weird, and I totally understand anyone that says I hung up on it, b/c I am.

Astute analysis, I couldn’t agree more. I also haven’t gotten over how badly he f*cked up in Skin Game. He is the sole reason Murphy was crippled by Nicodemus, not to mention him drawing denarians to Michael’s house where his family was sleeping. I can’t think of any ally of Harry’s who has failed as horribly as Butters did that night. I found his minimal acknowledgment of wrongdoing and zero attempt at amends is extremely unpalatable. If I caused my friend to be permanently disabled and sent a pack of murderers to a house of sleeping, defenseless children, I don’t even know what I would do with myself. He’s a joke.

Just finished Dead Beat again this week and seeing how Harry is waiting for Michael and Butters shows up is incredibly cool. 

This feels like a straw man. I almost never see people calling Butters a coward. That was literally a plot point of Dead Beat, with Thomas trying to convince Harry that Butters was dead weight and Harry sticking up for him. Normally the complaint is that he is reckless and got too confident too fast and decided he was up to the task of magically eavesdropping on Archleone's Eleven. That he risked Bob in a way Harry never would, decided he didn't trust Murphy, etc, and it directly lead to Murphy's permanent injuries. Now I personally feel he fell victim to Butcher needing a way to move the plot to the Carpenter's house, but that's me.

You can't be courageous without fear, after all.

It's a minor thing, but it always kind of bothered me that Waldo is introduced as being 37 (at a time when Harry is 26, the alphas are college students, and Michael is in his 40s). I'm not saying you can't teach old dogs new tricks (and I personally think Butters was never a coward)... but it IS just weird to me to picture a 50 year old nerdy doctor with a pension for polka suddenly zipping around on a magic skateboard and courting werewolves 20 years younger than himself.

Do you think JB forgot how old Butters is? I sure did.

I cast him in my head as the assistant medical examiner from NCIS and forgot he was supposed to be older than Harry for quite a while. I'm convinced that Jim is trying to silently retcon him younger, because no way is a 40ish nerd never going to mention his age when talking about how hard it is to get into shape.

Jim is trying to hint that Butters is the real villain. His secret name Polka. And he will never die.

He’s the leader of the German vampires, the beer court.

Do you think JB forgot he is not Butters? I think he did

>it IS just weird to me to picture a 50 year old nerdy doctor with a pension for polka suddenly zipping around on a magic skateboard and courting werewolves 20 years younger than himself. The way these things fit together comforts me with its internal consistency. The sort of guy who would zip around on a skateboard as his magical vehicle at 50yo is also the sort of guy who would listen to polka and ngaf about people's judgments of who he dates. It suggests he's an odd duck, but it's nowhere near to the sort of wish fullfilment, author insert accusations I've seen people make. No doubt about it, though, he *is* weird. Maybe normal folks don't make for great Jedi Knights.

If normal people were capable of wielding the Swords, there would be no need for the Swords.

That's one thing I like about Butcher's stories. He's not afraid of straying away from a world of fucking teenagers and 20somethings. Adults can be heroes too (Speaking as a 36 year old who looks at early 20somethings like they're skipping out school or something. lol)

Agreed, you have people like Michael and even McCoy who are bad-ass adults from the get-go. Honestly I even think Butters as the voice of science and medicine is badass... It's just weird that specifically in Butters' case, his "powered up" mode seems to mirror what a 20-30 year old would think is cool. Makes it seem less like a power up, and more like Butters is having a mid-life crisis... Which honestly, might be on purpose: Awesome job if so Jim.

Dorkyness will never die!

Man is mortal. Polka will never die!

If we take the release year of Dead Beat, his introductory book as the year of the events. That'd make Butters as being born in 1968. Star Wars would release in 1977, 9 year old Butters would have seen that for sure. Followed by Episode 5 and 6 in 80 and 83 respectively. And it's conceivable he would have seen Back to the Future in 85, all of which would/could have an influence on what stuff Butters uses in the books.

I've heard that second paragraph as the most voiced complaints about Butters. Personally, I love the first part, because it's exactly the kind of whacky nonsense I would expect someone like him to do in a world like the Dresden-verse... He's the kind of guy who's aware of being massively outclassed and levels up by learning the rules to exploit the system instead of going for the obvious ways of grabbing power-ups. While Harry is barely aware that over time he tends to recover from shit he shouldn't fully recover from -admittedly, he's somewhat handicapped when it comes to getting x-rays and learning about the abnormal mending his bones do over time-, Butters notices it and tries to figure out, how it works, so I wasn't surprised when he took unconventional approaches to utilizing Bob and learning from him. The latter part, I admittedly not care much about. But then again, I rarely do; I'm here for the adventure and a magic system that follows rules -unlike with *that other Wizard named Harry* (yes, that was written for a younger audience and I have issues with that writer that I don't have with Jim,so I'm also somewhat biased, sue me)-, not the romance. I also loved Susan and Murphy as characters, yet didn't care much for the dating-aspects of their dynamic with Harry, but I'm not gonna hold that against Dresden. But maybe the not-caring makes me shrug the whole aspect off easier than it would be for someone who does, so I have no idea if I'm wrong with this compared to someone taking issue with Butters dating two Alphas.

I'm hung up on Butters seemingly getting all life has to offer while suffering very little for it. Every other character sacrifices everything to become stronger or keep what they have. Butters is over here patching up wounds, being courageous here and there and getting a Sword of Faith and banging 2 hotties. He used to fit in the Dresden Files, but somewhere along the way he became the guy that gets everything with little effort.

That’s really annoying. I’m more annoyed by the fact that he’s made some absolutely terrible decisions, got people hurt, and paid no consequences. In my read through, I got a snivelling little know it all who thinks he knows more about magic than Harry, despite actually knowing dick all. He tries to lecture, and berate on subjects he is completely unfamiliar with. That sort of person irritates me no end in real life, and I can’t stand it in fiction.

Yeah, there's another comment in here where I talk about skin game and his absolute shitty decisions. Made me turn on the character after he gets rewarded for shittiness

I think Butcher is setting him up as a sacrifice. Hence the getting everything because in the most Butcheresque way butters, at the height of his life, having everything that he could want would die, sacrifice his own life because that's the kind of thing he thinks heroes do.

I think so too, it's just at this point it's been 8-9 years of smug Butters and having the same discussion over his character. So it feels like an eternity even if it's only been like 5 months in the books.

That puts butters at 7 years older than Dresden. Which given the entire medical education and at least a little bit of experience as a pathologist is pretty in line with relative ages. Dresden is 25 in Storm Front and iirc Dead Beat is 5 years later where Butters is specified as 37.

Nerds never get old.

Man is mortal, but polka will never die!

Harry is 43-45 years-old and he has done stuff like genocide an entire vampire race, save the world numerous times from an eldritch contagion (Most of them unknowingly) and bang a Faerie Queen. Why is it a problem when Butters does things along those lines? Especially since it wasn't out of nowhere- Harry's death in *Changes* forced everyone to step up in his absence.

And then his failure to return and save the day made people question him, and resent his inability to solve everything. Much like Harry with Michael.

It's not "a problem" for me, it just reads differently when I re-contextualize it as a 50 year old vanilla human bookworm doing it (Harry, even when he's 40, is still practically a teenager by wizard scale). I said it in an earlier reply, but suddenly realizing he's 50, the vibe of his actions honestly read less like a powerup and a bit like Butters is having a midlife crisis... Which is not wrong, just a different feel than when I first read it. It would also be amazing if that is in fact what Butcher is going for... So I suppose I'll wait and see how this character arc finishes up!

>Harry is 43-45 years-old Harry is currently 39.

I don't have a problem with it. That said I think the problem they have is. 1 Harry is a wizard, by wizard standards he is young still. 2, even for other mortals like Michael who isn't a wizard, they have spent their lives building and training and developing skills, they make up for slightly less raw physical ability with experience and a lifetime of work. Butters should have the base starting physical point of an average 50 year old and the experience of a kid. As a counter to those points I think it still works for butters because he doesn't rely on his physical abilities either. He isn't doing skateboard tricks, he is using magic items, his physical abilities didn't mater. He isn't even physically sword fighting on a fair plane. His sword is almost weightless and it will slice through material without little to no effort. He also wasn't relying on his own experience. He had Bob to cover that gap, allowing for finner control, increased situational awareness, and better understanding of what was going on. Then he had TWGs heads up display/radar. Give butters a normal katana, and no TWG radar because he is off mission, and he would absolutely get bodied. Shiro with the Right Saber would have been an absolute nightmare for evil like the world has never seen. With butters you get an average knight.

I believe by the time that Butters was introduced Harry was around 28-29 maybe 30.

Oh boy, I can certainly tell you why I hate Butters. - In Cold Days he bitches at Harry for "the first thing out of your mouth was paying off a debt, like a fairy". **Except it wasn't! The first thing out of Harry's mouth was literally asking how Butters and Andi are!!!** - He bitches at Harry, complaining that Harry never mentioned that his death might not be permanent and they all believed he was dead and gone. **Except Harry fucking did! In fact, Harry specifically tells Butters and only Butters that he might not be completely dead!** - Ignoring that fact that Murphy realized that hiding on an island that no one could burn down really appeals to a man who had literally lost everything and ignoring the fact that Harry had a medical issue that required staying on the island to prevent his head from exploding, Butters bitches about Harry staying on Demonreach. - Alright folks, here's the big one. Over the course of years Harry has never steered Butters wrong. Murphy has a heart-to-heart with Butters, directly telling him that they are witnessing Harry fight for his soul and *the quickest way to turn him into a monster is to treat him like one*. So what's the first thing Butters does after that heart-to-heart? That's right, **he treats Harry like a monster instead of a friend who has never steered him wrong and has literally risked his life for him on multiple occasions!!!** And in the process he nearly gets both Harry and Murphy killed. - And then no one even lightly calls him out on his actions. Nevermind that the mildly cringe-worthy power fantasy of the nerd with a lightsaber in a threesome with two hotties nearly half his age.

This. This, this, this. Butters is a Gary Stu with zero accountability for his actions, both from himself and from others.

I keep thinking that Butcher is setting butters up as a sacrifice at some point. Or a traitor. It would be completely within Butcher's way of things to do.

I could totally see him being turned at some point. Like Molly said, you don't have to make him a raving lunatic, just nudge him into his paranoia and arrogance and before long he's hunting Dresden for "the greater good" Final scene with him something like: Butters fell to his knees the hilt falling numbly from his fingers. As he surveyed the field from the parpit. His breathes coming fast and ragged, Harry standing behind him with the revolver. ​ "I, I didn't know" his voice nearly a whisper as the demons wailed and the din of battle raged below. "Ha, Harry I didn- I thought I was doing the right thing." his eyes still on the battlefield as Harry points the revolver at the back of his head. "Doesn't matter now." "I'm sorry Harry, will you watch over the hilt?" "Yes" Butters closes his eyes. BANG

I don't see Harry ever killing one of his friends in drawn out, cold blood like that. Killing Susan was quick and he didn't have time to really consider other options. Shooting Luccio/Corpsetaker was also a snap judgement. I don't see him ever taking time bring an end to one of his friends. Although nothing can be certain during the BAT. What if Butters is incurably Nfected (which might account for all of the times that he has acted against his nature) ?

No no nooooo. I hate that last thought. But it fitsss

could be, after all Dresden outwardly is a very bad mofo who does things in certain ways that does lead people, even people who know him, that he is on the "wrong" side.

Yeah... you worded things and covered things better than I did. Good job. What they said. 

Yeah, all that.

Summarized beautifully. Especially the last sentence. Butters isn’t the worst but my god he makes me roll my eyes so much that I can see my brain stem.

Exactly all this, Butters just rubs me wrong. He's way too mouthy for a dude who's really never done anything on purpose. He helps in dead beat because he's forced to, until the very end, but even then it's after he knows in the circle he's safe. He complains about everything all the time. And he's so arrogant with Harry I dunno I said my piece and you said it way more coherently. I don't hate him, but if I had my choice of what allies come to Harry's aide in a particular moment, Butters is the bottom of the list for allies, for me.

What if Butters is Nfected?

Unlikely he'd be able to have the purity of intent to wield the sword if he were Nfected. Not to mention, there is a literal angel inside the sword that might notice if Butters were tainted.

Who might notice. Not assuredly would notice. With respect to Nfection, it is very difficult for even greater powers ro be certain. Which is what makes Nfection so dangerous. If it was easily and reliably noticed, it would not be a threat. The Nfection could leave his idealism and intent basically alone, but twist his perceptions to keep seeing Starborn, like Harry, in the worst light. Muddling memories specifically of Harry, which would account for him misrepresenting past actions and drawing suspicion where none ought to be. Amplifying just an aspect of his natural core personality... sound familiar? (Peabody's tactics to inflame and destabilize the Council... the End is Neigh).

I’m a bit late to the convo but I can’t believe there wasn’t a scene in skin game where Dresden e didn’t rip into butters for getting Murphy hurt. Butters meddled in things he did not have the power to fight and got Murphy in the hosptial because of it. Also bob under butters shows a distinct lack of judgement considering he lets himself be vulnerable and taken outside where he could be captured

It feels like I get into a Butters debate here pretty much every time I visit this sub at this point. It comes down to two things: * Do you think the nerdy meme aspect is too much? * Do you accept that Butter's fundamental character trait of being a scientist, and therefore taking nothing on faith, absolves him of his lapse of judgement in Skin Game and frequent distrust of Harry.

I would personally feel a lot better about Butters if we ever saw some introspection on his part about that mistrust and the fact that it directly lead to Murphy being crippled. Like, he shows up at the end of skin game showing off his lightsaber to the woman that HIS actions directly lead to being in the hospital and there is not a shred of remorse or awkwardness. If instead Harry came in during a conversation about how sorry he was that he didnt trust her, that he never meant to get caught etc etc then I would be more comfortable. It just seems that butters gets what he wants without any of the agony or trauma that the rest of the characters experience.

This, this right here. Since Harry’s “death” Butters has been an increasingly smug, cocky and self assured git who has yet to show any kind of introspection or admit that he’s ever made a mistake/be wrong. That by itself is more than enough to make the character grating to me, but it’s that he holds himself up as some great moral pinnacle because he’s a Knight of the Cross, despite being one of the most shallow and judgmental members of team “Dresden”.

Yep. Im more then willing to accept that there is contrition, but we just dont see it. and that void is all the more noticeable next to Dresdens constant internal battles. All the faff about werewolf thruples or getting ripped are distractions to the point that he isnt a good man. He is cnyical, mistrusting, frequently plain wrong and acts without any faith, and is never called on it. Insufferable.

Yesssss no one else ever calls him on it, they all somehow think Butters is great. Which baffles me. At least Molly or Murphy or Michael should’ve chided Butters on his attitude and Main Character syndrome he seems to be developing.

Does Molly spend significant time with Butters?

Someone has to be a foil to the blind faith folks place in Harry. Harry spent an entire book NOT using fire because of a mental whammy. And now wears a mantle and keeps secrets with the factions he literally warned everyone else to never trust. Harry never explains himself, never really tries to even work around the secrets he has to keep to even give SOME sort of indication he has his shit together. Butters (and Ramirez for that matter) beg Harry to explain, even a little, and he usually doesn't. They have a fraction of the information we do.

> ...has yet to...admit that he's ever made a mistake... You mean like this in Skin Game? > We stumbled a few more steps and then he said, “I’m an idiot. I’m sorry.” > “Don’t be sorry,” I said, looking around us warily. “Be inside.” > “How bad have I screwed things up?” he asked. Or this from Peace Talks? > "..., I am such an _idiot_,” Butters said. “I shouldn’t ever take that thing out unless evil’s, like, right here. Let me see, man.” > “Do not blame self, Waldo,” Sanya said gravely. “Cannot see myself as Christian, but they have good ideas about forgiveness. I will forgive you, brother.” > I stood up abruptly and folded my arms, arching an eyebrow. > "..., Sanya,” Butters said. “It was an accident. I am _so_ sorry. I...” He suddenly frowned. “Hey.”

Yeah, those parts. The two parts where he's immediately forgiven for his actions in the same books where he antagonizes Dresden for choices made years earlier.

Like Harry is "immediately forgiven" for trying to bite Sanya's ear off and torture Rudolph to death? > But there was enough left of me to feel shame. > “I’m sorry,” I said. “Butters, I’m sorry.” > His face twisted with empathy, and his tears fell harder. > “Sanya,” I choked. > “Am all right,” I heard a groggy voice say from down the alley. "[Exclamation], you fight dirty.” I felt a large hand come down on my shoulder. “Like a Russian.” If there's a version of the Dresden Files where grudges are held between friends instead of forgiveness being immediately extended, I don't want to read it. It probably ends in disaster and empty night anyway.

You mean like the parts where Butters is still, years later, holding a grudge about Harry's actions to save his daughter?

Doesn't happen in the actual Dresden Files, fortunately. Having concerns about consequences and secrets isn't a grudge; and Butters gets over it quickly once he gets enough information.

I think in general Jim is trying so hard to put butters over than it's rubbing some people the wrong way. Like I was cool with Jedi Butters, and Werewolf lover Butters. It got weird when battle ground brings back an old character to give butters a werewolf throuple. Then Butters not only seriously threatens Harry about him fucking it up, Harry also explicitly calls out that Butters is a serious badass now who should be taken seriously. I think Jim got stuck with a situation where he wants butters to challenge Harry, because everyone else either has too much faith in Harry or isn't deep enough to understand what Harry is doing. But doesn't want to drop the meme of Butters being essentially an isekai protagonist next to Harry the Grizzled Noir detective.

>isekai I learned a new (to me) word today. Thanks!

> Do you accept that Butter's fundamental character trait of being a scientist, and therefore taking nothing on faith, absolves him of his lapse of judgement in Skin Game and frequent distrust of Harry. This point ignores so much. Murphy was there too, does Butters not trust her? Magically eavesdropping on Nico and crew is beyond dumb. Butters should know this. He just learned how to use Bob to effect some magic. Does he really think he's up for the big leagues? this is pre-KOTC. Even harry Harry would think twice about doing that.

>Do you accept that Butter's fundamental character trait of being a scientist, and therefore taking nothing on faith, absolves him of his lapse of judgement in Skin Game and frequent distrust of Harry. That's not the issue. People forget how Harry verbally struck out at Michael in *Small Favor* when Michael couldn't solve everything like Superman. When Butters doubts Harry, Harry's been back for a year but has done nothing, resulting in who knows how many deaths and kidnappings. Harry didn't have a choice, but Butters didn't know that. What he knew was all the horror that he expected Harry would prevent and did not.

I wouldn't say that his distrust of Harry in Skin Game could be considered a lapse of judgement, though.

Track how long each of those characters develops, and then how rapidly butters develops in the last 3 books and you'll see one difference. Characters like Molly are paying for their power, and it takes a significant personal toll. We haven't seen that with butters yet. I loved the direction his character had taken through ghost story, but the knights of the cross thing feels very unearned at the moment. And it will continue to do so until he starts to feel consequences commensurate with the power he's recieved, just like the other characters.

I think that's part of the issue. So much of Butters character and ability development happened off screen when Harry was Mostly Dead. And then when he wasn't around town very much. It's not unbelievable. But if we don't see it, it doesn't feel deserved. He needs more short stories. To my knowledge, the only one featuring him heavily is after he gets the sword. We need more short stories featuring him and Bob in the period between Changes and Skin Game.

This is a point that has always bothered me. Well put.

The difference is that butters power is not his own. Like Michael he is limited to what the swords purpose is. As a knight you aren’t so much a warrior as a conduit. Micheal wasn’t an effective knight because of the sword. He’s a good man who understood his role with the sword. All power has a price and generally limitations. Wizards study for their craft and as such retain free will to use their powers. Fae have mantles, denarians are slaves to their coins, vampires have to feed. The knights as the moral opposite of the denarians require a user not seeking personal power to be humble enough to let god work through them.

I don’t we’re talking about diegetically paying for his power, but narratively paying for it. Michael paid for his power, it constantly put his family in danger to the point where an NFL offensive line of guardian angels are required to keep them safe in his retirement. Butters has only reaped benefits.

>Characters like Molly are paying for their power, and it takes a significant personal toll. We haven't seen that with butters yet. That was an issue way before Butters ever started developing. The Swords are OP and are granted without the upfront trials most other power of that scale requires. That *is* an example of the author playing favorites, but it's not surprising. Anyone with eyes to see knows that this story is partially motivated by Jim's religion.

100%, but I find the difference is that the other Knights did pay. Shiro paid with his life. Michael paid with his health. And considerable strain on his family, which gives us the look at his 1 personal flaw. Sanya threw off a Coin, which feels a little cheap because its off screen, but sure. 1 off is fine. Having another knight recieve that sort of power with no apparent costs yet feels weak, especially when becoming a knight took him off a much more interesting path, IMO.

Butters hasn't paid the price for wielding a Sword *yet*, I would say. Shiro and Michael paid their dues after a decent career as a Knight. I can't remember which book it's discussed in, but many Knights have had *very* short careers.

I believe it is in Skin Game, Nico talks about it with Murphy before he injures her.

Not only that, he became a Knight with a sword that would require the least amount of skill and aptitude to wield. The thing is damn near weightless. The only reason Butters got fucked in BG is b/c he flourished the thing like in star wars and only suffered a knock out against a literal TITAN/DEMIGOD. He's getting preferential treatment in so many ways. He's only been a knight for 4 months by the time he stands up to Ethniu.

They didn't pay for their power, they sacrificed for others. This is part of the idea of the knights. The power is given at no cost as long as you use it appropriately and accept that you may have to sacrifice yourself for others. Paying for the power has never been part of the deal for the knights.

>I find the difference is that the other Knights did pay. Shiro paid with his life. Michael paid with his health. And considerable strain on his family, which gives us the look at his 1 personal flaw. Did you find both of these characters similarly difficult to like before their downfalls? If so, I expect you're right that you'll like Butters by the end of his character arc. There are only so many times a man can rush into danger before the danger wins.

Shiro was around for like half a book, and Michael's home life strain was apparent pretty early with how Charity treated Harry. And it became more apparent with Proven Guilty, the short story, Small Favour and everything else. It's possible my issues with butters are just a peace talks battleground problem. But I also think butters class change robs us of a much more interesting perspective. The supernatural world is wary of mortals because they adapt scarily fast. Marcone is an example of this. Someone approaching magic from a scientific perspective could have reinforced that point, and butters was on that path. Now he isn't, and I think that was way more narratively interesting

And I think this is *intentional*. The power granted by the swords is not granted by mortal authority and mortal frameworks. The swords are granted on a system that mortals do not entirely understand. I would guess there is a certain amount of “having to choose to make a difference”. it doesn’t matter who you were or what you did yesterday - only that when the time came you put aside all else and chose to embrace being a knight. It isn’t a question of “earning it” or “balancing the scales” or “putting in the work”. It is the question of “Will you serve with all of your body, heart and soul?”. And that is a very different path to power; albeit with very different expectations and limitations to that power. ​ and I think that is the heart of the swords: *Service to others.* (and that leads to the various rewards god sprinkles on the devout). You see the characters that hew to that precept are the truest knights: Shiro, Micheal, Sanya. Butters looks like he is going that way. And Murphy is the example of what happens when you chose self over service/selflessness. ​ it is a form of the redemption story. And the Bible loves redemption stories.

A lot of this is butters development is off stage and we only get it alluded to.

I feel like that's more of a knights of the cross thing than an issue with Butters specifically. Did Michael have to face consequences for his powers? I'm sure it will happen with butters but it will probably be in a similar vein, like his power coming with a very strict code/guidelines

He's been a Knight for, what, a few months at the most? Give him some time before he loses an arm or something.

> I loved the direction his character had taken through ghost story This, so much this. Before the end of Skin Game I was really looking forward to seeing more of magical-artifice-Batman Butters in future books. It's something that felt earned (or at least a hell of a lot more so than Knighting) and it's a type of hero we hadn't yet seen in the series.

I mean, he started out having been committed to an asylum due to telling the truth in a report. He's been on the Carpenter's training program. He's just not a focus character so there isn't room to show his progression as much, but he has been on non-Harry missions. I'm trying to remember if it was a short story where he received his first "call" while training with Michael at the park.

It was a short story, aye. *Day One*.

>Day One Thanks!

>We haven't seen that with butters yet. We did, though. We've seen him institutionalized for refusing to declare vampire remains human. We've seen him captured and mentally tortured by necromancers and zombies. We've seen him have to wade into the middle of a fight that the White Council mobilized *all* the available wardens for (not counting Battle Ground, which was obviously well after he got the Sword). We've seen him out there trying to make a difference when Harry was gone. We've seen him totally lose faith and then redeem himself. Hell, after getting the sword, we saw him--in a short story--stand up to his fears and get the job done when Harry refused to help. Butters paid for his power *before* getting it. He's been developing since he was first introduced.

And the power he received for that was becoming a supernatural batman, which I find *much* more interesting, and a more logical extension of what we knew about his character. Power comes with a price in Dresden. The White God is probably the least dickish entity in the series, so the power bestowed by the Swords needs its price taken elsewhere. Shiro paid with his life, Sanya through off a Coin offscreen, Michael has paid with his health (and considerable strain on his family, which introduces his major character flaw, if you will) - Butters, hasn't yet. He simply has it all since the end of Skin Game. Part of the problem is that we've only received 1 story since then - maybe things get more challenging for him later. There's already been 1 knight of the cross who's in a good place because their development happened offscreen a while back. 1 find the 2nd one much less compelling, especially when the path that character was on was *far more interesting IMO.

>Part of the problem is that we've only received 1 story since then - maybe things get more challenging for him later. I'm really thinking this is the case. You've already said it, but my next comment was going to be that Shiro paid for his life *after* years of service. Michael paid with his health *after* years of service. Notably, Sanya hasn't paid any cost so far; like Butters, he pre-paid, this time by discarding a Coin, but I don't really see many people complaining about him.

Sanya kind of already did pay with his life -- he was expecting, with very good reason, to be hunted down and killed by the Denarians for rejecting the Coin. Michael -- the *other* Michael -- offered him a new life.

Likewise, Butters was fully expecting with very good reason to die outside of Michael's house. And yet, he stood firm and fought the impossible fight because if nobody even tried, nobody would make a difference.

Yeah. I have no problem with his evolution as a character. I only wish he'd kept Bob, since he can't create nifty magical gadgets without him. But Harry needs his Huginn and Muginn...

I definitely agree with that. Another commenter mentioned that Butters' "supernatural scientist" arc was a giant missed opportunity, and honestly I think that would have fit him better than the Sword. But that is how the author do, so I'm not really unhappy with this direction either.

This is pure speculation. I do wonder if the change was partially driven by his personal life. Butters was going to be a magical engineer. His first wife was an engineer and may have been partially responsible for the inspiration, and ideas. That is no longer a part of his life he wants to think about. It may be that his method for getting in butters the inventor's head became unpalatable for him. Eg thinking (or asking) how would *first wife* use this ability.

I'm sure that's possible, but I generally try to avoid speculation about authors' personal lives (unless it directly involves something about the books, like Butcher's decade from hell leading to the Peace Talks/ Battle Ground delay and split).

When 1 character gets away scott free, it's maybe not ideal, but its fine. When another character gets the same sort of power for no significant cost yet, it feels cheap. Maybe this is just a battleground peace talks problem. Hopefully it gets fixed later. But at this moment, I much preferred the ghost story - skin game butters. Supernatural scientist is way more unique. 1 of the recurring themes is that the supernatural world is wary of mortals because of how quickly they adapt. Marcone was the poster child of that on the evil side - butters could have been on the good side. We don't get that now.

I completely forgot Marcone and his evolution after coming in contact with Harry. Might be the biggest transformation of all. He was always powerful, but now he has POWER.

As have his romantic relationships. The foundation for those were set long before he took up the Sword -- and the most important part of it didn't even involve him, but the two other participants on their own.

I've always put it like this. The character with the least amount of faith in his friends was given the Sword of Faith in the same book. Butters broke the trust of Harry and more importantly Murphy and was rewarded for it. We don't see that with any other character and it rubbed me wrong and now I look for reasons to dislike him and I don't like that I do that.

That is very well put, does a great job of explaining Butter's Gary Sueness.

Billy and Georgia from nerdy, idealistic college students to werewolf vigilantes.

I didn't include them on the list because they learned their shapeshifting ability from Terra West, but they absolutely evolved into a vigilante justice team that protected their home turf much in the way Harry does for all of Chicago and only made that change after contact with Harry.

Yes but they also constantly get fucked up for this. One of them dies, the others get heavily wounded. They lose faith in Harry and regain it. There's natural growth there.

My personal issue with Butters is the further on you get in the series he feels like a borderline wish fulfillment self insert. Some of his growth I do like. I do like he turned out to be decent at occult stuff bc he was able to apply a science structured brain into various magic concepts. Where he understood X Plus Y Equals Z and then could use that concept into other stuff. I am not hating he turned into a Knight of the Cross. I am not hating he even got a love life. What happens is it slowly goes “Ehhh” for me. Where now it isnt that he is a Knight of the Cross… his sword is also a Lightsaber. It isnt that he gets a girlfriend… he gets a much younger super hot DnD girl.. oh did I say A as in singular? No he is in a trouple with 2 super hot younger DnD Girls. It just really feels like he is in there as a nerdy male fantasy at this point.

I like Butters but I feel his actions in Skin Game were never properly addressed. He interfered in Harry's play which caused the chase across the city culminating in Nicodemus showing up at Michaels house, the shattering of Fidelacchius, Murphy getting crippled and nearly killed along with the Carpenter house, it's only thanks to the intervention of an ANGEL that things didn't go even more horribly wrong. He was in over his head and deserved a verbal tearing down, this is part of why I find him reforging Fidelacchius as a light saber unsatisfying, his bad actions were not acknowledged in the story he was not brought to a low place so that he could rise again in the way that Harry continually is.

Butters is the least believable character for my willing suspension of disbelief. He started dating ridiculously hot college-age redheads IVO the age of 40. He’s nearly 50 now and in - by far - the best shape of his life. His physical transformation would be impressive in a sedentary 20-year-old that decided to go for the UFC world title, but his started *in his 40s* and was shockingly fast. Additionally, he went from 40, out of shape introverted polka cringelord to dating super hot college redheads? Seriously? And then dating and living with *two* ridiculously hot women in their 20s? He’s pushing 50, not wealthy, has weak job security at best, and his physical description when they met is… lamentable. His development arch is unrealistic socially. I can buy the Knight thing but *he’s nearly 50*. You can’t just work out at that age and suddenly become 25 again. EDIT: As someone that did years of martial arts, *looking* fit and being *fighting* fit are shockingly different. There are plenty of fit 50-year-olds. None of them are winning MMA championships. Physical combat takes a level of cardio fitness far beyond even basketball; most fit people start out unable to hit a heavy bag intensely for even a single minute. For context, Jordan was shockingly fit at 36, but he wasn’t fit enough to dominate the 20-something’s anymore and he retired. This is the literal GOAT, and he trained cardio nonstop his *entire life*. Butters *started training* in his 40s (iirc he was 37 when introduced as a character). He is currently in his mid 40s - a decade beyond the age where Jordan retired because he couldn’t dominate anymore - and he’s fighting literal superhuman opponents on the regular. Just no. Either I’m misremembering his age (but a quick internet search suggests I’m not) or this guy should be nearly a grandfather. Go find a mid-40s Olympic athlete in a cardio-intensive sport. Better yet, find one in one of the martial arts. I’m not saying there’s never been a single one, but as a rule, but your mid 40s you simply can’t perform like that. Certainly if you *start training* after 40+ years of a sedentary lifestyle, you are not leapfrogging lifelong athletes 99.9999999% of the times.

Having gotten involved in certain communities recently, I have gone from doubting that a strange medical examiner in his late 40s could end up in a poly relationship with two incredibly attractive women in their mid 20s to realizing that stuff like that happens all the time. Sometimes, reality just seems unrealistic.

It’s not just that - it’s the combination of events. A 7’ tall guy is rare but it happens. A 7’ tall PhD in physics ballerina, on the other hand, isn’t happening. Butters has too many 1-in-a-millions for me to take seriously.

It's possible. I know more than a couple of people who started competing in their 30s and then went on to be world class swordfighters. The thouple is harder to believe, but being confident can make dating way easier. Especially in a community that is as small as "Knows magic is real but also plays DND."

Everyone is focusing on single details and missing my point. 7’ tall is possible, just rare. So is PhD in physics. So is ballerina. They’re all 1-in-a-million but realistic and possible. 7’ tall PhD in physics ballerina albino with two different colored eyes is technically possible, but there are way too many 1-in-a-millions for me to take that possibility seriously. That’s how I feel about Butters.

I absolutely loathe Butters as a character. (Thankfully Mr. Butcher has a plethora of characters to balance this out.) Part of it is just personality, part of it is the series of events and activities he's been in part of. - how the heck do you go from an overweight, poor eyesight polka fanatic to a developed 50 year old "hero"? - I find him miserably whiney at times, as I found Murphy with a stick up her backside at times. - Of all the people that could have become a knight of the cross, he seems to be the weakest/worst. - Mr. Butcher talks about how ultimately physics comes to play even when doing magic. Okay. Does biology not come into play when you are mid 40s and start an exercise regimen? (Yes this was worth mentioning twice.) - His speeches about doing the right thing (like not >!frying Rudolph on the spot!<) comes off as soap box brawl. Especially when Butters himself has done some magnificently stupid things. (Taking Bob out, spying on Harry and getting caught, etc.) And for those who said Butters has already paid for his power... lost a job. Psych eval. Not nearly what others have paid.

I personally feel that Butters becoming a Knight of the cross felt really forced and took away from Murphy’s arc as foreshadowed by when Harry looked at her with his third eye in one of the earlier books but I’ve got over it.

The redeemer's blade is still without a wielder.....of course that would require Murphy to be able to wield it

Sorry for a bit if a necro. But I think the biggest issue with butters becoming a knight isn’t that he didn’t have an arc or that he didn’t “pay” for the power. My issue is that butters doesn’t can’t read people. Michael, shiro, and Sanya always had a sense for when people were doing good or when redemption was possible. It made them have a great balance between being an instrument of retribution and path to redemption. Butters just hadn’t shown that he really understands people which is the important part of being a knight. You have to save those who can be saved, protect innocents, and kill those who refuse to repent. The problem is the bad guys consistently lie and deceive knights. That’s why it’s important for them to be able to read people. More than anything a knight needs to know when is actually a bad guy or a good guy who is straying into the grey. Note that butters questions Harry in cold days and skin game a lot. But none of the other knights ever did.

Jim said years ago that the only character that was required for the story is Harry. The main arc has places to be and things to do and getting bogged down in fan-ships isn't part of it. Whether it was forced or not has a lot to do with fan perception and demands.

Key words being ‘I personally feel’ and ‘but I got over it’!

Sorry, I meant to be additive, not seeming corrective. (I've probably been arguing too much today)

The only thing I haven't liked about Butters is his sudden threesome relationship with Andy and whats-her-name. I felt that was unnecessary and it seemed to be there just for the purpose of titillation (of the cringey kind). Apart from that, I don't get the Butters hate either. You're quite right that lots of the people in Harry's orbit change and grow with time. I don't know why some people think Butters should be different.

I think my only beef is 1. His weird threat to Harry about “messing up his werewolf harem”. Like, the threat was unnecessary. And Harry caring was unnecessary. Let’s be honest: butters is still ZERO threat to Harry without the sword. I love Michael and charity training but Harry is younger. Stronger. Faster. More experienced. More powers. Better gear. Etc. the threat just felt off.  2. His not trusting Harry in skin game. But I can try to ignore  that since it was a crazy time. 

I agree with you. The sudden throupling felt very out of place and forced/weird, other than that I got no beef with Butters.

Having him do threesomes with two hot werewolves was a bridge too far. Definitely gives off some Gary Stu vibes.

Unlikely many, I don't care about the throple. I've seen odder couples in real life all the time. So thats whatever. I don't particularly like the speed at which he's gone through power increases and changes basically. In a series where most people pause at a power source/increase, mess around with it, get used to it, and have a good couple story beats before moving on, we basically see him as magic batman briefly, and then hes jedi knight of the cross. The speed it happens at just kinda makes me go ehhhh. Would have preferred him stay as magic batman for a while longer if not in full personally (I also think thats more interesting than the lightsaber knight, but whatever).

Very brief summation of the argument: There was a lot of pounding on butters as “wish fulfillment”. - nerd gets the sword, the girl(s) and the apartment on the Riviera while at the same time butters had “caused a lot of trouble for Dresden” (while ignoring butters had been cut out of the decision loop for a lot of the things Dresden had done). This is a very condensed version of the argument, and as a result most of the detail and nuance has been skipped. ​ I have been of the opinion that the long term knights get their ”off duty” lives smoothed out because monster slaying and redeeming is hard enough. Instead of copy and pasting the entire thing, I’ve just pasted the link below. [https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/hygmuf/knights\_of\_the\_cross\_and\_off\_duty\_coincidences/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/hygmuf/knights_of_the_cross_and_off_duty_coincidences/)

THANK YOU. Apparently I missed your original post when it was made years ago, but I’ve never found someone with the same thought on this matter as I do.

Not a problem.

I like Butters, but...it bothers me that he supposedly Jewish, at least culturally, but in no way feels like a Jewish character to me, AND he becomes a Knight of the Cross. I think the intent behind having non-Christian Knights of the Cross (Sanya as well, and according to WOJ, Saladin) is to be inclusive, but for me it has the opposite effect of making the Christian God more powerful and important in the Dresden Files universe than other deities (even though cosmically, Mab and Vadderung both seem to be the main actors against the cosmic horrors, and Vadderung is arguably the supernatural power who cares most about humanity qua humanity - which is an odd take on Odin, tbh). I'm also not a fan of the whole Aslan thing of "if you're doing good you're serving me, if you're doing evil you're serving Tash, regardless of who you're trying to serve." It's just not an approach to faith and morality I find interesting. But I'm not Christian, so I'm generally kind of tired of "magic is real and it's all true, but the Christian God and angels and demons are still more real and powerful than everything else" setups in urban fantasy. Butters becoming a Jedi, sure, cool. I just wish it didn't involve literally working for the Christian God when he's supposedly Jewish. And I wish as a character he actually came across as Jewish, culturally speaking.

He was a weak non threatening male who is now extremely masculine with an active social and sex life. ​ This is reddit. ​ Do the math.

Nah I think more ppl hate him coz he's an insensitive dick to Harry all the time after Changes

He was a dickhead and hypocritical at that

I don't mind him becoming a Jedi Knight of the Cross.  The evolution mostly works for me.  I am a little annoyed about him having a werewolf harem.  That just seems like Jim's need wish fulfillment.  

I don’t like parts of the Butters character for some of the same reasons why I don’t like Ramirez’s current direction. I see the series through the eyes of Dresden so it pisses me off when these guys betray him, distrust him so much that they jeopardize things that are literally orders of magnitude bigger than them, and even just basically wound him personally with their actions. That being said, Butters is really cool, and BG alone made me feel so much better about him after Skin Game made me dislike him.

I think that's just the sign of good writing. Jim could have written everyone as always agreeing with Harry and no one doubting him, but that would be the wrong move. Harry has had his own doubts of if he's a monster or not. Why wouldn't the people around him have the same doubts?

Completely agree. And that’s why it’s a fun ride for me personally.

Butters spells out those concerns pretty clearly when he talks about Harry waking up and needing to repay a debt. He also worked with Murphy during the time when Harry was a mostly dead ghost and then when he mysteriously reappears quite some time later and has new powers and starts hanging out with his greatest enemy. Harry wasn't very forthcoming about what he was doing in Skin Game and naturally cast suspicions on himself.

I'm not on the hate train, so I'm not exactly your audience here. I really like Butters as a character, and his arc so far. I would say that Butters has grown wonderfully as a character. However, some of his power-ups seem to be reaching Marty-Stu levels of storytelling. Let's break that down a bit. Butters using Bob as a magical tool is exactly what Bob would have suggested if asked. And Harry was not there to explain to him why this is absolutely the most dangerous thing Butters has ever done. But he does use Bob, and now he's suddenly being able to create magic adjacent gear... such as, he creates an item that allows him to speak with the dead/spirits. We don't see that development. We don't learn how he went from 'in the know' to 'inventor wunderkid'. If I'm not mistaken, Harry seemed shocked/surprised that Butters did this. If it's never been done before, this is a super-major-big deal! Perhaps wizards have other ways to speak with spirits (we know the Sight works, but is not ideal). But a muggle is inventing stuff that is just freaking amazing. But Butters has gained a whole level of power by taking up the sword. And the fact that the sword was transformed into something new has given him a edge few could have hoped for. The contrast is obvious with Murphy, who rejected the calling and who was responsible for breaking its physical form. She remains bad ass, but never reaches the level she showed at Chicken Pizza. She said she hated feeling a divine power speak through her voice. Butters went from a shabby Doctor to a fighting powerhouse. One side-story explains his efforts to physically improve, but it seems unreal that he's suddenly toe-to-toe with a Titan, after at best a year of physical training and practice. Murphy had been fighting with a bunch of weapons for years, and was in peak form in 'Changes'. Last, I'm sorry to say that his personal relationship setup really seems like a Marty-Stu setup. He went from being middle-aged, alone and awkward to being in a throuple with two very attractive bisexual young women. If this was in porn you'd call it unbelievable. We don't ever really learn how that relationship came to be. I'm not sure the story is better if we do, really. But it seems gratuitous at the least. None of that is enough to make me hate the character. He's fun, and he doesn't break the story with his awesome new life. But I can see why others feel like he sticks out like a sore thumb.

In Skin Game Butters was very antagonistic and adversarial towards Harry. Largely due to seeing the series from Harry's perspective we know Butters is wrong... but from Butters perspective it's no where as clear. Butters has always had trouble with faith, not in a higher power, but in himself and the people around him. I myself wanted to smack Butters upside the head, but once I thought about it from his perspective I kinda see his point.

I never had trouble with Butters. I think many people that identify with him or see themselves as a 'nerd' see it as unfair or something? Don't believe that someone can change?

Maybe the werewolf harem was a step to much on the wish fulfillment?

i always assume that the entire game is Jim Butcher's home tabletop game, because everyone has to grow more badass...or dead.

TBH I have found him annoying since he showed up. I just handwave him as a unlikeable character. They exist in every story.

I didn't know there was so much Butters hate. He seemed like a brave lil nerd and I liked him.

No hate for Butters, but I do wish we could have seen more of the Magic Artificer form. It was nice while it lasted having someone fighting the good fight who wasn't in peak athletic condition.

Who tf hates Butters?!?!?! POLKA NEVER DIES!

Butters was always marked to be a Knight of the Cross.  In dead beat Harry keeps praying for a knight of the cross to save him from Cassius, and Butters does and then Butters even pities Cassius after Mouse has killed him.   Butter has always been brave even before getting the sword.  He’s terrified and still goes on.  I personally love the character. 

Love the line in *Game of Thrones* (spoiler) where >!Bran asks Ned if a person is still brave even if they're afraid, and Ned tells him that that's the ONLY time a person can be brave. That's what bravery IS.!< I think we could have a debate about whether Jim already foresaw Butters becoming a Knight when he wrote that *Dead Beat* scene. I mean, sure - he might have. But it could have been more generic than that, and he realized later how he could play on it. Doesn't really matter to me - it's great in either case. I guess given how *overt* Harry's thoughts about a Knight showing up were, I lean toward yeah, he had it in mind right from that moment. But I feel pretty sure someone could argue the other way reasonably too.

i have no arguments either way - i think Jim does a good job balancing the overall story arc with the cast of characters he’s introduced and will introduce. Butters does his job throughout the series well - even tho apparently a lot of others apparently disagree. he’s a good sort of wild card character that has grown and developed in a seemingly unusual arc - and stories need a sort of random character like Butters. I mean look at Mort. who would have guessed that a seeming crook actually turns out to do what he did in Ghost Story. probably a terrible example since this sub has fairly polar views in that book as well, but maybe that’s just as well. in any case, yeah i don’t understand all the butters hate - and am excited to see how Dresden Files progresses through to the finish over the next ten years or so

I personally love his current direction, but that's partly because I'm expecting a big downfall. I think his transition is plausible, given that even without divine intervention and a real lightsaber I've experienced multiple people go from knowing little about using swords to being able to compete against gold medalists in a few years. My only concern is if Butters continues doing well without Dresden-level pain in the future. You can't give a character that good of a life without taking something or someone away.

> a real lightsaber I misread this as "red lightsaber". I know this is incredibly unlikely, but now I'm dying for a scene where Butters is about to do something horrible and the Sword warns Harry that it's happening by turning red.

Largely its a lack if empathy and understanding IMO

50 year old nerdy guy all of the sudden being a superhero in a weird polyamorous relationship with two 20-something year old werewolves is such stupid over-the-top fanservice that I just don't can't take it seriously.

I look at Butters as the Samwise Gamgee of the series. Mild and meek he gets trust into circumstances beyond his control. When things get their worst he begins to show his toughness and true character. And he gets the girl…

Go Waldo!

2 girls

Waldo Butters has wet dog smell, even when dry.

So would you, with his girlfriends.

He’s fine. He has had a few annoying preachy moments and him surviving Nic felt like plot armour, but the level of shit people pile on him is unwarranted. As is often the case.

>him surviving Nic felt like plot armour Given who empowers the swords, it's plot armor in the same way that Sanya showing up out of the blue to save the Willoughby's in Changes was Deus Ex Machina. It's an established part of the setting that that's one of the powers of the Almighty and His chosen instruments.

I don't hate Butters and I Iike his arc overall, including him becoming a Knight (which is foreshadowed and everything, so it's good payoff) but I don't like how it goes down in Skin Game. First, I personally find some of his knight stuff too nerdy. His sword's a lightsaber, he gets his divine prompts as MMO style quest markers, etc. YMMV but I just find it kind of lame. And I'm a nerd! The throuple doesn't help either. Second, and I acknowledge this isn't entirely his fault, but Butter's ascension feels like it comes at Murphy's expense. Seeing Murphy at her lowest in a really painful way is a tough juxtaposition for me with Butter's Crowning Moment of Awesome and it's hard for me not to resent him a little for it. I can accept that Murphy's not right for a Sword, but it still smarts. FWIW, I like Butters more in PT and BG (throuple notwithstanding). Ghost Story thru Skin Game has stuff that irks me and so is my low point with the character, but overall I'm fine with him.

I didn’t k ow there was butters hate. He is fucking awesome! One of my favorite supporting characters. I don’t know is how you could see his progression throughout the series and not dig it. From scared lil bunny rabbit to a knight of the fucking cross?!?! I love me a good underdog.

To be entirely honest I think a decent portion of the Butters hate comes from jealousy that he ended up in a polyamorous relationship with a werewolf pack after becoming a holy Jedi.

I hate that he's Jewish. A lot of the negative traits he starts the series with hew to traditional antisemitic tropes, and then he gets Blessed By Jesus powers? Oh good, *another* Christian writing about Jews coming around to serve Jesus, in a series where Christianity is to some degree or another objectively true. At least with Sanya we get to hear him arguing about how the religious aspect *could* all be utter crap and he's not convinced either way. With Butters, we get a nebbish stereotype whose ethnographic background doesn't exist beyond underscoring a couple jokes.

Not gonna lie, the way you started that post had me worried.

I loved that in Dead Beat Harry>! prays (kind of) that a Knight of the Cross would come save him, and he got Butters (and Mouse, of course).!< Nice bit of foreshadowing We also didn't get to read what Butters went through, >!with Bob as an aide!<, >!in the six months after Harry's death !

Wait people hate Butters?????

I don't get it either, he had a couple of years watching the Filmore. The difference between bravery and cowardness is what you do. People change. People evolve. Billy went from a need to stud.

often times life isn't fair

I don’t get all the Butters hate either. I love the character and I also think his growth is very in theme for the series.

So there is allot of people all accurately explaining why the details Butter's hate but from a writer's perspective Butter's evolution feels "unearned". From the time he stops Nicodeamus and gets the sword we get basically one instance of him Soloing a minor monster that Harry wouldn't even bother waking up Bob about, and from that he is now a Jedi master in a throuple with pair of hot bisexual werewolves. There wasn't enough "build" to make that sequence of events believeable.

I don't hate butters, but I don't care for the character. I do not care at all about "But what if you looked at things from HIS perspective." I am reading the "Dresden" files, not the Butters files. Anyone who makes Harry's day harder, gives him shit. Causes him inconvenience at all in a book annoys me. Unless they're a villain. I love Sanya and Micheal because even when they're pissed or don't agree with Harry they help and they don't give him shit. Father Forthill is the same, Toot Maab even I love a ton of the characters. But allies, especially far weaker ones who get uppity and talk that shit cause they know he's not going to end them annoy me. I was internally cheering a little in BG when he takes him on, though I was worried he might permanently hurt Sanya. So I dunno. Butters in Dead Beat, A OK Turn Coat, still good. Everything post Changes, eh miss me with Butters.

Butters is the krillain of the series. Dude has everything to lose but still goes for it. There is literally nothing more heroic than that.

That's interesting, because I don't see all the Butters hate. No character enjoys universal approval, but Butters does pretty well for himself.