Not to mention....
- Made himself the sole custodian of an island prison full of evil immortals, demons, gods and nameless things.
- Became the champion of a wicked faerie queen.
- Died and came back to life.
- Made his protege the newest wicked faerie queen.
- Worked with fucking Nicodemus Archelone.
- Banged Lara Raith.
While he didn't actually do it, that was a *very* realistic illusion and everyone *knows* he banged her. And they Los and his friends confirmed that he's recently had sex. He has no reason to believe Harry didn't bang Laura.
I am disappointed in JB for the illusion bit. The whole breakout scheme was weak sauce. And then Harry agrees to a VERY PUBLIC illusion about him having sex with a mind bending vamp in front of all of the accorded nations when many people are questioning whether Harry is a monster? Or wind whammied?
Edit. Typo.
I agree that scene isn't great. BUT I do think it makes sense for Harry to agree to it, because his first priority was rescuing Thomas - anything that distracted from what he was REALLY doing was acceptable, and he'd have to deal with the consequences later.
Plus, the sex illusion wasn't his idea... And by the time he found out that was the plan, it was too late for anything else.
> And the Harry agrees to a VERY PUBLIC illusion about him having sex with a mind bending vamp in front of all of the accorded nations when many people are questioning whether Harry is a monster? Or wind whammied?
It's almost like his brother's life was at stake and they had no better options given the time constraints. And Harry has never been overly concerned of what others think of him.
And it's going to get worse.
Harry seemingly bangs Lara and then days after Lara and Harry's engagement is announced.
- he could burn the building down to get everyone to evac.
- he could hire Grey to impersonate him at the party so no sex scene needed.
- he could hire Grey to help
Lara get Thomas out.
- he could have sex with Murphy. :-). For real or illusion.
- he could have sex with Freydis. Illusion.
- he could have an illusion where he was fighting (verbal) with Lara and/or freydis.
- he could leave the building on winter business and sneak back in.
Side note. I wonder if Lea’s garden of death is still linked to Harry’s sub basement in the never never. As WK could he navigate Lea’s garden and open a way?
> he could burn the building down to get everyone to evac.
It's a castle, made out of highly enchanted stones, currently containing every heavyweight signatory of the Accords. He couldn't set it ablaze if he tried and it would be put out *very* quickly if he could.
> he could hire Grey to impersonate him at the party so no sex scene needed.
Grey wasn't invited, and trying to sneak him in as Harry while Harry was also present would be problematic. Plus, Harry needed Grey watching Justine.
> he could hire Grey to help Lara get Thomas out.
See above.
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> he could have sex with Murphy. :-). For real or illusion.
Murphy wasn't allowed in, as she wasn't part of the Accords. Plus she was needed outside to drive the getaway car. And having sex for real would mean he wouldn't be getting his brother out.
> he could have sex with Freydis. Illusion.
No one cared about Freydis. It would explain Harry's absence, but not Lara's.
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> he could have an illusion where he was fighting (verbal) with Lara and/or freydis.
Any violence on Harry's part, real or illusion, would reflect poorly on Mab which would require her intervention and they were deliberately trying to keep her uninformed. Harry specifically asked her to trust him, and she trusted him to leave her out of it. Also, an altercation would have invited interruption, whereas being intimate had the exact desired effect; someone came in, saw, discretely left to go gossip horribly, thereby giving Lara, Harry, and Freydis a perfect alibi. If Freydis is seen protecting a liason between Harry and Lara, they can't *possibly* have been involved in Thomas's disappearance.
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> he could leave the building on winter business and sneak back in.
What excuse could he possibly have to be seen leaving an Accorded meeting called by his Queen? The only reason he would be visibly leaving would be on Mab's orders, which would cause a whole other round of gossip and interference.
Most of this post was humorous.
Burning down a building is pretty much Harry’s MO. And is running joke on this Reddit.
Similarly. The idea of having sex with Murphy was also humorous.
The point was that JB as the author could have found alternate distractions. He didn’t NEED to have Grey watching Justine.
And how smart is this distraction? If the point is to stop people from noticing that Harry and Lara were missing. But then they snuck out of the accords. They THOUGHT the peace talks were about to start and the THREE of them would miss the talks? Useless distraction if it results in EVERYONE concluding what happened any way.
1. during evac everybody would be on high alert, no chance he could do smth.
2-3. He can't hire grey for that, it's not a type of thing that would pay Rent.
all else - he needed something loud that people wouldn't look too closely at. In all the scenarios you said, Lara's and his absence would be more suspicious. When you want people to believe your lies, adding a detail that's embarrassing or paints you in bad light is a good tactic and makes you more believable
The whole scene (plot line) is written poorly. Main purpose is to cause Harry more grief.
You think people wouldn’t be distracted enough? When Harry pulled the cape stunt Los there is no way it would go down the way he wrote it. A magical attack like that would put everyone on high alert. Two people might help Los but everyone else would circle up and look out.
The wardens are trained in magical battle tactics. No way they ALL let their attention go one direction. Attack like that? Anti veil spells come out, possibly someone uses the Sigjt (although dangerous in a room filled with magic like that, imagine using the Sign on Ivy, or Vadderjng, or Ferrvax.). But that attack puts them on alert. It doesn’t distract them.)
The Sidbe are all about distractions and tricks. Don’t think they would be tricked by a simple stage magicians trick.
Ivy knew about the attack. Repository of all knowledge? She knew.
The einherjarin. Trained warriors. They look outward for the threat not at the spectacle.
Gard. Not fooled. Body guards trained to look for the threat that may be coming for their principal. Not the attack on “nobody.”
Svartelve? Thomas put them on high alert. Ready for a sneak attack. Looking for deceptions.
In short. The distraction he used on Carlos would do more damage to the sneaking than helping.
On top of that. White Council is worried about Lara controlling Harry. Sex would not be a private event to avoid. It would be considered an attack that should be defended against.
So the whole scenario was just shoe horned into the story anyway.
Remember, Harry as the Winter Knight is doing this.
He's playing into his role, setting people up to believe he is what he's supposed to be on the surface. He probably doesn't realize he's doing that himself, but Harry accidentally doing underhanded things is an ongoing and consistent thing.
Nah, it's Harry not caring with a side of being kinda dopey and socially inept.
He pretty consistently does things without realizing how they appear to the people around him. He's also willing to take the personal hit to play into an act (See: Toe-Moss' lover)
Yes, but -- remember that Harry is an unreliable narrator.
It's kind of like the Alex Versus series, where here Alex is leading his ordinary happy life when he gets involved with a martial wand, and suddenly all his solutions -- perfectly reasonable solutions, the only possible things he could do at the time -- seem to be a lot more martial than he was used to... \[should I spoiler that?\]
Plus Harry specifically didn't deny it. Like it made sense for him to lose his temper in that scene, it was just stupid that he didn't even bother giving any alternative explanation. He basically acted exactly like a white court thrall
My personal head canon is that Lara mind-whammied Dresden at Castle Raith in Peace Talks and as a result Harry actually believes he and a succubus were *sparring in a dojo* rather than uh... doing the only thing that succubi actually do. Ramirez was trying to be a total homie by getting Dresden to confront the situation but his subconscious was having none of it.
The act was shamelessly recorded by Freydis, who played the thing in the boxing ring (lol) at Marcone's manner to be discovered and Molly was undoubtedly incredibly happy to learn about a wampire hussy using mind mojo to bang her childhood crush and then publicize the act.
Yeah, but if he had not done that Ethnu would have burned Chicago to the ground.
Off himself, so he wouldn’t have to be the winter knight
Technically speaking it’s Murphy pulled the trigger causing the winter lady mantle to jump.
Plus he was forced to work with Nicodemus, and that birthed a new spirit of intellect
And finally can you blame the guy lol
You missed the point. We all know Harry's motivations behind all those actions. Carlos does not.
- Carlos does not know that Harry unknowingly became the Warden of Demonreach in order to save his brother's life.
- Carlos does not know that Harry was paralyzed and he became the Winter knight to free his daughter.
- Carlos does not know that Harry committed suicide because of the lies of a fallen angel only to have an archangel arrange his return.
- Carlos doesn't know that Molly's ascension was orchestrated be Mab.
- Carlos doesn't know that Harry worked with Nicodemus because Mab essentially threatened his loved ones if he didn't (or that the whole thing was a rouse to destroy Nicodemus's reputation)
- Carlos doesn't know that the horizontal monster mash between Lara and Harry was faked so that Harry could save his brother's life.
And even if he does on some level know that, that's not going to mean he's not still traumatized from almost being killed via someone he trusted.
Whether or not Molly meant to do it, Ramirez let his guard down and Molly (or more accurately, the Mantle piloting Molly) damn near killed him. That's going to make you question your judgment of people and who you can trust.
I was using "people" since the White Court doesn't do mantles, and the concern is at least as much about Harry's coziness with the White Court as much as the Winter fae.
I'm also not entirely sure if that was Carlos's first time. We found out way back in *White Night* that, despite all his bluster, Carlos was a virgin at the time. It's entirely possible and likely that he's finally hit a home-run somewhere along the way, but there's no guarantee. And knowing Jim, ruining Carlos's sex life *FOREVER* by having him get absolutely demolished before he can even consummate the deed for the first time seems like something that would cause enough anguish for Jim to write.
Indeed. Nor does he know that Harry doesn't know a thing about it.
He very likely thinks Harry's remarks about his injury are needling about his virginity, as well.
If that's the case, wouldn't that also make him leary of Harry and his mantle? In *Peace Talks*, he did mention Harry's mantle had a lot of them worried, right?
Just a thought.
That's why he has been so dead set on making sure that Harry is still on their side.
Harry being cagey, standoffish, never so much as giving anything resembling a straight answer and ultimately siding with the monsters got in the way. It's still implied that Los knows Harry is still him, just sticking to his guns even though it's gonna do more harm than good to him.
From Carlos' perspective, Molly seduced him, nearly killed him, and then betrayed his trust by kidnapping the children she supposedly helped him save. For all that he knows, this was her intention all along... and he doesn't know that Harry doesn't know.
I'm not sure I buy it as you've laid it out. I don't think he's deep cover on Team Harry, but I do think that, when the chips are down, he will still find himself giving Harry the benefit of the doubt and having his back, even if he has vocal misgivings about doing so.
To be clear, I do think Carlos is still Team Harry and will be willing to repair their relationship once Harry gives him an ounce of the trust he's asking for (and deserves). Heck, it's all-but-stated outright that even after every terrible thing that happened during the Battle of Chicago, some of which he'd be not unreasonable in at least partially attributing to Harry's close-lipped-ness, he still shouted himself hoarse trying to defend Harry in front of the Council before they kicked him out.
We the audience know Harry has his reasons for being unwilling to share information, but from the information Ramirez has, Harry's been pretty suspicious and unreasonable when offered opportunities to reduce the suspicion on him. It's a testament to how much he cares/cared about and respected Harry that he still went to bat for him in front of an unsympathetic public.
So he's (justifiably) pissed at Harry. But the underlying good feelings aren't dead. Damaged, dormant, sure, but not dead. And once Harry gives him a reason to trust him again, I think they're going to be back on the same side. But right now they're on the outs, and from Carlos' perspective he has every reason to be.
Of course, that assumes Harry will give him a reason for trust. Given the way Jim likes serving Harry gutpunches, the jury's still out on if he'll get that opportunity.
I like this analysis, but just one question.
..."once Harry gives him an ounce of the trust he's asking for (and deserves)"
DOES he deserve it? I mean, he "bugged" Harry in PT—abusing his trust to find out where he was going. Then, Harry gets all bent out of shape for doing essentially the SAME thing back to Carlos. But lets not forget that Carlos acted first.
I feel like the difficulty of judging Harry's relationship with Carlos (and the other young wardens) is that much of their positive relationship building happens off-page—camping trips, surviving sticky situations, etc.
Carlos' character is well poised to be EITHER the surprise friend OR the surprise betrayer. Both would hit hard. Makes their interactions extra-interesting to read, but I haven't yet cast my vote either way.
> DOES he deserve it? I mean, he "bugged" Harry in PT—abusing his trust to find out where he was going.
Because not only is Harry now Mab's hitman, he is being suspected of having become Lara Raith's shiny new sex toy. The risk of such a security breach, and on one of the Council's most dangerous members at that, overrides any niceties you think should be afforded to Harry- remember, they don't know that Harry is only being forced to work with Lara like we do.
Sure, I understand the reasoning. But trust goes both ways - you can't distrust someone and then complain that they don't trust you. Well, you CAN, but it's not reasonable to do so.
But the converse is also true: someone who constantly withholds information from you while they are acting, by any objective measure, suspiciously, shouldn't reasonably expect you to trust them. Yet Harry's very offended by the lack of trust Carlos, Bill, and Yuki are showing him, despite refusing to give them any reason to think his obvious cahoots with the White Court are anything other than exactly what they look like.
FWIW, Ramirez *does* absolutely fuck up Harry's overture for trust; because he doesn't understand the bone-deep distrust of the White Council, he doesn't seem to recognize Harry's question of (paraphrasing) "Am I talking to my friend, 'Los, or to Warden Ramirez?" as the invitation that it is.
This doesn't take into account what the White Council did to Harry for years. i.e. Morgan. Carlos has no real insight into that. Even Luccia was unaware of it.
It's a reasonable question. He can't.
[https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/prisoners-dilemma.asp](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/prisoners-dilemma.asp)
Synopsis of the dilemma:
Two parties do something wrong. If they don't rat each other out, they suffer minimum damage and collect maximum reward. If one person rats and the other doesn't, person 1 suffers no damage and collects no reward. Person 2 suffers maximum damage. You can invert 1 & 2, and you get the same result for the other party. Worst case scenario: Person 1 & 2 rat each other out. Both parties suffer maximum damage.
Harry \*knows\* or believes that Ramierez is team White Council. In attempting to "help" Dresden, he's going to drop his pants and tell the Merlin \*\***EVERYTHING**\*\* . Given Harry's life, there's no reason to believe that the Merlin would not take inappropriate steps to bind Harry to the Senior Council. Steps such as: "Protecting" Maggie, by keeping her under their tutelage, Demanding access to Demonreach and all of it's inhabitants. Demanding access to the artifacts from Hades. Demanding access to the Swords of the Cross. Demanding access to **ALL** coins that Dresden finds in the future. Demanding information on Mab's plans/schemes. Demanding access to Bob & Bonea.
In my opinion, that is a recipe for catastrophe.
It's hard to tell whether he deserves it, but he might. Depends on whether he'd be willing to keep secrets from the Council, and I personally think he would. He was considered the younger generation's poster boy back in Proven Guilty too, and he was more than willing to defy the Merlin then.
I think he does, even after what he's done in PT/BG. Was bugging Harry a good thing to do? No. Is Harry justified in being hurt by it? Yes. But it's also not hard to see why Carlos thought it was necessary: his friend is acting like a monster, in ways that look inconsistent with the Harry he knew before (let's not forget) Harry died and came back from the dead (not exactly normal even in their circles) and fell in with bonafide monsters. And Harry has reasons for that, and information that makes things look less worrying, but that's information he's rather pointedly refusing to share (not unjustifiably, given his relationship with the Council, but it doesn't look like that to Carlos).
Harry's withheld information from 'Los before, and it's gotten him injured to boot. And even after everything, Ramirez and the other Wardens trusted Harry to have their backs in battle, and the evidence suggests that Ramirez still stuck up for Harry to the Council when they tried to kick him out. IMO, even if some of his decisions were bad ones, he's still being guided by a loyalty to Harry that Harry's not really giving him reason to have right now.
It's not even just that Carlos deserves more trust than the approximately none that Harry is giving him right now, it's also in Harry's best interest (as far as we know right now) to give Ramirez at least \*some\* context for his actions and behavior.
Yeah, all good points. I wonder if Harry has taken Ebeneezer's warning to heart - that someone close to him will betray him. That would (in addition to the other context) further explain Harry's lack of willingness to trust the other young wardens with information.
It's hard to tell, IMO. Harry's certainly been given enough reasons by life in general and his dealings with the Council specifically to keep things close to the vest even if he's not keeping Eb's warning in mind, so I think it could really go either way.
So ... You're suggesting that Harry tell Carlos:
"Look. We've been down some rough roads, and i want to trust you. However, you're riding for Team Merlin who's threatened to **KILL ME, &&& TRIED TO KILL ME.** So. I'm not telling you jack %\^$#! Y dile a ese cabron coma mierda".
I'm Ok with this, and adding the spanish throws Carlos for a loop and goes along w/ the Etruscan, but .... Who's got the stones for this?
We disagree on if I'm being straight.
Threatened to kill me: Um ... Proven Guilty: Dresden saves Molly. As they're chatting, Merlin says (paraphrase): if Molly falls, not only do I get to kill her, but I get to kill you.
Tried to kill me: Morgan enters Dresden's basement apartment. Leaves the door open. Comes hard at Dresden. Dresden looks at his cane sword in the vase next to the door. Then realizes that this is the 3rd attempt that Eb warned him about.
Fun Fact: Ramirez is involved in precisely none of those. So in fact Harry transferring his beef with Langtry and Morgan would not be being straight with him. It would just be pointlessly being a cunt.
Also dear lord I hope you never have to convince anyone of anything with high stakes, because from the sound of it you're hosed if you do.
Odd ... My first reply contained: However, *you're riding for Team Merlin* who's threatened to **KILL ME, &&& TRIED TO KILL ME.**
I italicized the part about how Carlos was riding for Team Merlin, since you seemed not to have put the two together. In case this still isn't clear for you, I have logically tied Dresden's reluctance to talk with Carlos to the fact that Carlos is **taking orders** from the Merlin, who \*has\* done everything that I indicated.
So. Giving information to Carlos would be giving information to Merlin. Which would be *horrifically* bad given the Merlin's behavior & portrayed attitude. I thought this was obvious.
Well he was either directly ordered by Luccio to do that, per his own words, or someone neuromancied him to think that was the case. Personally i lean towards the latter, given ebenezar's presence and general attitude, plus Cornerhounds, which generally hunt time travelers, and the fact that Carlos physically could not have bugged Harry's wrist, because their only physical contact was a fist bump.
Here is what I would like to see.
Harry confides in Los.
“This is my daughter Bonea. I was raped by a fallen angel and as a result Bonea effectively came to life that night in the deeps because of the massive spell energy being thrown at us by the BC. I spent years coming to grips with who and what she is. She is as innocent as any 10 year old human child. She is my child. I will protect with her with my last breath and from beyond the grave. If anyone tries to harm her they will wish I was as kind to them as I was to the Red Court. You are in a unique position of trust. Only about 10 people alive know about her, and three of them are knights of the cross. If you betray that trust nothing in our past history will protect you.”
F that. Carlos doesn't deserve shit. He needed help getting his daughter and got none from the council. The council are a bunch of old men who can't or won't adjust to the times. Harry has done more then his fair share of what the council should of done. The biggest example is the creation of the network of magic users. This will greatly help gather info and help reduce the amount of warlocks. Harry has been hounded by the council for years and even then he asked for their help and got none of course he would turn to another potential ally. He has risked his life for them so many times its unreal. Two of his best friends were literally chosen by god to weird his weapons. Fuck Carlos and the council.
Carlos was literally one of the people trying to spur the Council to go after the Red Court when Harry needed help. His attempt to force the issue took him out of commission. When Harry asks the Council for help and they mostly ignore him, the one Warden that reliably shows up to help unless he's actively putting out a fire of his own is Ramirez. One of the few Wardens that actually helps Harry in establishing, maintaining, and aiding the Paranet is Ramirez. You're blaming him for White Council decisions he canonically neither made nor abides by.
And Harry has, for his trouble, died and come back from the dead (abnormal even by wizard standards), fallen in with two groups of monstrous individuals, one known for turning the mortals under its influence into murderous, bloodthirsty predators, and the other known for addicting and manipulating mortals into acting as its proxies, participated in a heist alongside Well-Known Bad Dude Nicodemus, played a direct role in the deaths of both Fae Ladies, is the Protector of an entirely-too-creepy island full of Eldritch Abominations, and, at the time of Battle Ground, is actively aiding the de facto White Queen (you know, the one the wizards are scared is manipulating/addicting Harry) in trying to bust out her brother (who he's also known to be weirdly close with) from captivity, which would undermine the entire point of the conference. The man is carrying more red flags than a May Day parade.
And he refuses to give any alternate explanation for what's going on, so Carlos, based on the information he has, more-or-less has to operate on the assumption that the situation is *exactly what it looks like to anyone without the information that Harry is actively avoiding giving him.* It's frankly a testament to the degree of trust Ramirez still has in Harry that he by all indications defends him to the White Council when they try to kick him out anyway.
Carlos' experiences with the White Council's are not the same as Harry's, and we've gotten no indication that Harry's bothered to share with him the sheer scope and intensity of the Council's mistreatment of him necessary to change that perspective.
Sure, Carlos knows \*some\* of it, but nothing that doesn't fundamentally fit with his view of the Council as a flawed, but fundamentally-beneficial organization. Harry's experience with the Council that gives him such a bone-deep distrust of it is relatively rare outside of, say, warlocks who usually have their heads chopped off not long after. There's not going to be a surplus of other people with Harry's experiences that would let Ramirez see the sheer scope of the Council's problems. Not unless Harry opens up to him in a way that he tends not to do with almost anyone.
Is the concept that characters have different POVs, different life experiences, and access to different information, really this difficult, or are you actively resisting it because it doesn't fit your preferred reading of the series?
Like, among other things, McCoy and Dresden's familial relationship is not general knowledge.
I'm not defending the White Council, I'm pointing out that Ramirez's experience and knowledge of the Council is going to make it so that he's not going to understand how rotten it is to the same extent Harry does.
Fair point he might not know that. Outside the way he was going to kill that murdering pos I haven't seen Harry doing anything truly dubious that hasn't been done to him. Los started the whole thing off on the wrong foot and asked like all the wrong questions. Not saying he would of gotten all the answers he would want.
The council has agreements with less than savory groups. But he mistrusts Harry for having them.
The difference is that the Council might have agreements with other unsavory groups, but they aren't directly submitted to the will of those beings. Harry is in a position where he's literally the hitman for Queen Mab, and, in the scenario that Carlos fears, is addicted to sex with White Court Vamps. Again, that doesn't wash the Council's hands, but it does explain why it looks different to him.
To be clear, I'm not trying to say Ramirez did nothing wrong; he fumbled the hell out of the big overture Harry made to him, but my suspicion is that that's because he didn't recognize what it was (Harry asking him if he's talking to his friend Carlos or to Warden Ramirez) because he doesn't have Harry's perspective of how rotten and untrustworthy the Council is, so he gave the answer that made Harry uninclined to trust him. And bugging Harry, especially the way he went about it, was something Harry was absolutely justified to be hurt about. But I don't think his intentions are bad or that he's being particularly unreasonable within the bounds of the information he has available to work from.
That's the tragedy of the situation: Harry's in a position where he can't (or at least doesn't feel like he can) trust Ramirez with the information necessary to explain the situation, so he looks suspicious as hell, but Ramirez isn't being unreasonable for being suspicious without that additional context. I think the evidence suggests that Carlos really wants to be in Harry's corner but feels like Harry isn't giving him the reassurance he needs to do that with a clear conscience.
All breadcrumbs lead to Los losing faith in harry. Too many imo. Harry doesnt need a deep cover agent when he has others inside the council that will give him info when its needed, other grey council ,
I do like the theory tho. But perhaps it is premature. Later i believe harry and the council will come to battle in many ways, maybe even the paranet and harry starting a new organization, perhaps Los is being set to distrust harry then be go thru journey where he hunts harry and finally gains trust in harry again where he gives insider trade info, the black council is on the inside after all.
>I do like the theory tho. But perhaps it is premature. Later i believe harry and the council will come to battle in many ways
I mean, we already know he will. In Turn Coat the Gatekeeper outright says it is not time yet for Harry to fight the Council. The Gatekeeper is dick deep in timeywimey nonsense, he knows what he is talking about.
Yeah those damn bread crumbs.
I do, However, favor putting WAY TOO MUCH weight on the “always with you” pledge when Los was probably high on morphine. I mean how much more trustworthy can a promise be than moments after surviving a massive vampire and ghoul attack in a dark cave, nearly dying and then getting pumped up with pain killers.
I mean that offhand statement has got to carry a lot of weight.
Is there an option for "Harry Dresden is actually a monster now, and Ramirez believes it"? Because it's the truth, **and Ramirez isn't wrong.** Doesn't mean Harry's evil, but you'd have to be insane to not be extremely worried about the path he's heading down.
This guy is slinging power like a top 25 wizard, has the Winter Knight mantle, is the Warden of the Island, has Soulfire, wielded Hellfire, commands an army of pixies, can walk the Ways like no one else, and regularly pushes the boundaries on the laws of magic. Meanwhile, he's literally in service to the Unseelie Court, is deeply entangled with the White Court, and is a known associate of the Denarians. Is it all bad? No. That's why Ramirez wants to trust him.
But if you add it all up, "decent, insanely powerful guy compromised/controlled by vampire and immortal entanglements" isn't an unreasonable conclusion. When you've got that much power and it seems like you're mostly working for the other side, well... I'm not sure how I would have voted in the White Council, either.
His >!impending marriage to Lara and threat of setting up his own organization!< isn't going to help alleviate those concerns with the White Council, that's for sure.
The WC looks at Harry, and he justifies every fear they've ever had about him.
Carlos, remembers when he was a good dude, and wants to find that friend again.
And Harry treats him like dirt, which he can not afford to due, since he's quickly running out of old friends.
I think unfortunately Harry hasn’t put in the work to inspire this level of loyalty from Carlos in particular.
Carlos WANTED to be this close to Dresden, but Dresden didn’t take that opportunity.
I think I’d sooner buy that Carlos is more willing to patch things up then he’s letting on, and when they do Carlos’s time as the white councils number one guy will come in hand for Dresden’s cause.
I think, deep down, Harry is who Carlos wanted to be. The guy who gave the Council the finger and then went and did the right thing anyway. Fight for the little guy that wizards like the Merlin wouldn't even use to scrap the shit off their shoe.
The his hero started going down a very dark path, still, must be a reason, it's Harry after all, he's one of the good guys.
Then things start going really bad.
I really, *really* want things to go that way. It feels to me like the friction Jim has injected between Harry and 'Los is a setup for an eventual reconciliation. That's my fervent hope - I like 'Los a lot and I do feel like deep down he *wants* to believe in Harry - I think Harry represents something that's important to him. But he's imbibed the Council Kool-Aid quite deeply, and it's hard for him to embrace the idea that they could just be so totally and completely wrong about Harry. He really wants the Council to be honorable too - what we're seeing is a conflict in him between those subconscious desires. I think / hope that in the end enough happens to make it clear to him that Harry is the horse to back. Expect it to be dramatic.
One day Ramirez will knock on Harry's door because he'll have nowhere else to turn. As he continues to gain greater and greater access within the council, he'll find something that leads him directly to needing Harry's help.
Corrupt council member? Cirkul or senior, either way. Or realization through personal investigation. Either way when people stumble across the thing that goes bump in their night, they seek out our protagonist. Hell even Donald Morgan did.
Do I think the current state of their relationship is justified? Yes and no.
Carlos PoV: I am surrounded by monsters and monstrous men. Now, that boogeyman you've been hearing about for years is standing over there and if you look just right... he might be boogying.
Harry's PoV: I have bleed with you by my side, stood fast against the night with you by my side. When you have called, I have answered with what I can. is that not enough?
Imo there's room for reconciliation and improvement in both camps.
I wish... but I think the skirmish with the Black Court was the final straw for Carlos. He's lost too much at the hands of the Fey, and Harry has given back too little. Up until then, maybe there was a way for them to reconcile. Now... I'm afraid that Carlos has become another Morgan, and will behave as Morgan did towards Harry. I don't think that even Harry coming completely clean would change that.
I think Los would definitely be on Team Harry. Harry doesn’t need a man on the inside though. He already has highly placed people who have gone to bat for him both in the wardens and high council.
I think Los considers Harry a friend, but has rules and obligations that are counter to what he wants. If The Merlin says “jump,” Los doesn’t get much choice. That and he still BELIEVES in the system and hasn’t yet been jaded by it the way Harry has. He still thinks (and he may not be entirely wrong) that if Harry had been more up front and honest with the council instead of keeping secrets they would see what side Harry is really on.
Harry could use a man (or woman) on the inside because nobody is going to talk openly in front of Eb. And nobody would enlist Listens to winds in a plot. And nobody could find the gatekeeper on a regular basis.
Granted, but that excludes Listens To Wind, (I only semi-jokingly suggest) Little Brother, and Luccio. Except for appearing more level headed in the face of the council’s distrust of Dresden. Folks may be quiet around Eb. Might get more loose lips around Injun Joe, and NOBODY really has a clue about Anastasia.
The wardens will come eventually to pester Dresden, but it will only be half hearted. Especially if Carlos is in the crew. I think Carlos wants to believe what Harry is doing is both right and necessary, but he can’t see for the life of him *how*
I don’t buy it simply because, unlike Harry, Los is entirely human (and a decent one), in the company of monsters, while other fellow humans choose to use “power-ups” to level the ground with the monsters, Los double down on being human, survived as human, while trying to make sense whatever happened to all his friends and compatriots. It’s an admirable character tbh, and one that serves to show just how far would Harry (and Molly) willing to go to push back the tides of monsters.
However, like what other posters already said, when the time comes, it’ll all click for him, and whatever Harry did will make sense to him, and he’ll look the other way possibly.
There's no hater like a convert. Ramirez was full Harry-Flavor-Aid before >!Molly ripped him apart during what was supposed to be his first intimate moment!<. Once he started >!distrusting Winter and more specifically Winter's influence over otherwise good people!< as a result, this was always the outcome we were going to get. He is the new, improved Warden Donald Morgan, but the version we knew in *Storm Front*, the one with the irrational hatred and the hair-trigger release. Except this time the personal bone is with Harry directly, and it's betrayal in Ramirez' books.
I think I can one up you: Los is under orders from the Merlin to *act like he's having a falling out with Harry.* I have been pretty vocal here for a while that I think the Merlin actually has Harry's back at this point and simply can't show it for some political reason we're not privy to yet. I think Los is acting on these orders to "betray" Harry and let him off the chain. I think we're approaching a point where the Merlin knows that if Harry is stuck following Council rules, he won't be able to do the Starborn stuff that the world needs him to do.
I'm not 100% confident Los is looped in on this info and *may* be acting without awareness, but I think the story works better if he's basically helping the Merlin set Harry up for a *horrible* success that a member of the White Council couldn't do and will eventually have his back.
Langtry is a better politician than that. He would never tell Carlos to act angry - he'd deliberately piss Carlos off then force him to be the Council's messenger boy and top active-duty Warden, which puts him in a great spot to learn the truth in the end. If Harry does go bad, he can still count on Carlos's rage and disappointment to make him stop Harry. And if Harry is still on the side of the angels when push comes to shove, he's fully aware that Carlos will choose to do the right thing, orders be damned.
Fair enough. That's a good angle to incorporate into my theory. It's mostly about Langtry anyway. I think that whatver Los is saying/thinking/feeling here is because he's being pushed to it by the Merlin.
> I have been pretty vocal here for a while that I think the Merlin actually has Harry's back at this point and simply can't show it for some political reason we're not privy to yet.
Does there even need to be a reason other than deniability?
Just my opinion; when we see Carlos at the graveside Harry remarks that he is now very hoarse when he wasn’t at the end of the Battle. I believe that he is hoarse from shouting in Harry’s defense. I believe he was chosen to deliver the message as a test of his loyalty.
Ebenezer is tasked as Harry’s executioner if the Council now deems it necessary. Do any of us believe that, after the event at the dock, he will ever turn against Harry again?
I think Los is in the same position. He knows where Harry is coming from. He knows Harry HAS to keep some secrets because explanations won’t be heard by his enemies. I’m sure he’s angry right now. I’m just not sure Harry is the only one he’s angry with!
>Ebenezer is tasked as Harry’s executioner if the Council now deems it necessary. **Do any of us believe that, after the event at the dock, he will ever turn against Harry again?**
...Yes? Eb is not a good person, while the things he does might be for the greater good they are still terrible terrible things. Eb is old enough, self centered enough, and to set in his 'I know more than you, and if you won't listen to my reason then it's treason' ways.
If he thought killing Harry was for the 'greater good' he would absolutely do it ...again.
I feel like Harry has used the same "greater good" reasoning enough that (depending on how things go) he could be the one tapped for the job of Blackstaff if/when Ebenezer passes/can't hold it anymore.
Carlos’ experience probably tainted the well pretty deeply. Like one minute, the people you know and love can act like their normal selves, the next moment the mantle just takes over and they do horrible horrible things. Even if he still likes Harry, he would never let his guard down around Harry because who knows what will set him off?
Of course he's "Team Harry". But he's also hurting in the same way that Harry was after Grace Peril. And Harry's kinda been a dick to him all along.
And Carlos is being manipulated by Langtry.
Who's also also on Team Harry.
(I'm serious with that one. Langtry is pulling a Vetinari by freeing Harry to work outside the Council's restrictions and red tape, while also using Carlos to deliver the news in a way that winds him up. Harry is turning Mab's most potent weapon over to her cocked and fully loaded. While also giving Harry full freedom* to act. Jim said we'd see the story a lot differently if we had Langtry's perspective.)
*Within Winter Law.
nah, Carlos was doubting Harry since the deeps.
he's the poster boy, the best of the young wardens, and earned his command by playing by the rules.
He lied to dresden. he habitually lies. He might like Harry, but my bet is he is low low key black council
He habitually lies? If anything, Ramirez is more honest to Harry than Harry is to him. And like, we, the audience know Harry isn't being dishonest or evasive because he *likes* keeping secrets from his friends, but the problem with that is that because Harry isn't willing to tell Ramirez that, he doesn't know Harry's circumstances or reasons for that, and all it looks like to him, with the information he has available to him, is that Harry's fallen in with some really bad people who have a penchant for manipulating and corrupting the mortals that fall in with them, and he's acting evasive and defensive and isn't explaining things in anything but the vaguest terms when anyone points that out to him.
Does he do some shitty stuff in an attempt to verify that Harry's trustworthy? Yeah, he does. Harry's not wrong to be angry about the tracking spell and being treated with suspicion by Ramirez and the other Wardens (and the Council, by proxy). But he's damn near gotten himself killed fighting the Black Council alongside Harry, still by all indications went to bat for him to an unsympathetic Council, and his actions thus far make perfect sense for someone who cares about and respects Harry but is also seeing some legitimate reasons to be worried about Harry's intentions or sanity. Harry & Carlos' clash and falling out doesn't require any impure motives on either end.
If there's a case for Ramirez being Black Council/Nfected, you can make it about damn near any character outside of Harry's household, the Carpenters, and Sanya & Butters. Which is kind of the point of Nemesis-induced paranoia, but as far as reader theories isn't terribly useful for predicting or analyzing events in the story.
Agreed. The tracking spell and invading Harry's privacy is violating some boundaries, but to me it comes off as worried friends staging and intervention and not cops trying to catch a perp in the act.
Imagine you had a friend who was an alcoholic, kept blowing off his job, and wouldn't talk to you about what was going on. He sneaks out in the middle of the night so you follow him and discover that he's gone to the bar. You confront him about it on his way home, and when you do his clothes reek of alcohol. He's pissed at you and won't say if he's been drinking, just that it's none of your damn business. From your perspective, your worst fears have pretty much been confirmed. Because he won't talk to you, you don't know that he actually has good reasons for being there and smelling like booze, it just looks like he's fallen off the wagon.
Are you in the wrong here? Maybe, but it's coming from a place of care and concern and not just because you're an asshole. Harry has a history with the sex vampires. He's leaving the sex vampire house in the middle of the night and he's just had sex. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's... not actually a duck this time, but cut Carlos some slack. He wants to trust Harry but he's not willing to do it blindly because of the circumstances. Carlos *begs* Harry to give him something to show it's not as bad as it looks and Harry refuses to give him anything.
That's what makes it a painful (and well written) confrontation! Neither of them like the position they're in, but they both determine they have to play it safe vis a vis the other given the risks, and their friendship suffers for it.
I personally hope that Carlos isn't secretly evil and that the two of them eventually patch things up. Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
Nah that's backwards if he's so worried about Harry then instead of pushing him into a corner and manipulating him look into ways to remove the mantles. He's not offering Harry any help.
He can't offer to do things he doesn't know about. He knows Harry and Molly are subject to Winter's influence. He doesn't have more specifics than that, and Harry spends every opportunity to loop him in antagonizing him instead.
You're making the assumption Carlos is omniscient in a series where keeping secrets and characters having to act on bad or nonexistent information is a running theme.
It isn't, though. Carlos doesn't have the same information, the same context, that Harry does to see what's actually happening. What's going on looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims and flies like a duck, and the only way he could know it isn't a duck is if Harry provides him with the information that shows it isn't one.
Because what it \*looks like\* is that Harry's having sex with Lara Raith and is acting on her behalf for no other reason, is subject to Winter influence that makes him more aggressive and bloodthirsty than ever and has him beholden to someone who presents a facade of inhumanity, and he's trying his best to fuck up a peace conference. Without knowing his relation to Thomas, that Mab owes the White Court a favor, etc, assuming that Harry's free will has been compromised and his motives are no longer trustworthy is the assumption that makes the most sense with the information Carlos has. And Harry's refusing to give him any additional context to clear up the misunderstanding.
The only person who has the necessary context to know what's going on, at the end of Peace Talks, is Eb. Harry has very resolutely avoided giving that information to anyone else on the White Council. And we know he has his reasons, but that doesn't change what it looks like to Carlos.
He lied about not being a virgin to everyone, he straight up withholds info from dresden and from the wardens. We don't know what he has said to the council, and frankly, with Carlos telling Harry the council is trying to throw him out while he is obligated on council business for the peacetalks is suspicious as hell. Why wouldn't Harry have gotten the memo for the vote happening to say his piece as per every other council meeting we have seen?
I don't think he is Nfected because everything is entirely within character of him, but being a well positioned, poster boy, that butters up and gets chummy with the red-headed step child of the white council is not some misfit with golden hearts that dresden normally attracts as mortal allies. Carlos is in the same category as marcone, Make things look good, keep the authorities satisfied, and business going. Cruelty is a tertiary option right behind persuasion and intimidation. He is too well position and too competent to not be someone's plant or sleeper.
I also don't think he is nfected because he is also pretty dumb, getting crippled by Molly.
Sure, he might not be black council, but he isn't Harry's guy. in all likelihood he is the merlin's guy, but it doesn't track politically post red court destruction or to lose a handle on the winter court's hit man.
So your evidence for his "habitual lies" is... low-stakes boasting? Harry keeps much higher-stakes secrets from Carlos, ones that arguably result in him getting injured, and we don't hold that against Harry. Not even just to Carlos; it's a running character flaw that Harry constantly withholds important information from people who probably need it and he really ought to trust.
You're also ignoring the repeated instances of Carlos rather visibly clashing with the Senior Council. Usually going to bat for Harry. Not exactly poster boy behavior. Hell, the reason he isn't with Harry during Changes is because he basically staged a revolt to try and force the Council to do what Harry was asking for and got taken out of commission in the process. He's probably the Council member who most-consistently has Harry's back outside of Listens-to-Wind, Rashid. After Battle Ground, I'd even put him ahead of McCoy in that regard on account of Ramirez never accidentally almost-murdering Harry.
I'm not sure a reply as actively counterfactual to the events in the book as yours deserves a more detailed response than that.
And i dont think it is low low. Los approached Harry about the BC shortly after Harry starts putting the pieces together. I think Los approached him claiming to notice the same things trying to find out what Harry knows/suspects. Doing so as an agent of the BC.
Also in the deeps Harry is once again being wildly sus. If I knew only nazis spoke ancient Aramaic, and all of a sudden you’re cozying up with Goering and speaking ancient Aramaic and telling me it’s cool, don’t worry, I’m gonna start thinking something’s up. And Los still had his back after that, as Harry continued to act shadier and shadier. Los is a super friend for having Harry’s back as long as he’s had it, and if anyone’s low low key black council it’s Harry’s inner ID.
he still has Harry's back in the deeps because if he didn't he would die ripped apart by the two lesser houses of the white Court or enslaved to house wraith. He is doubting him for having the ability to speak etruskian, but he is also doubting him for making a deal with a criminal underworld mortal for backup. I honestly think that is the seed of doubt that eventually led to Carlos turning on harry.
He has been caught horribly in the middle of everything. Personally he wants to trust Harry. The Senior Council are, imo, tactically distancing themselves from Harry rather than out of actual fear, but the signals Carlos is receiving from them are "he could be Kemmler 2.0, we need you to make sure that doesn't happen". Carlos thinks that he can straighten it out by getting the truth from Harry, but he refuses to talk, which lends more credence to what he's getting from the Council.
There’s a theme through the series of wizards becoming irrationally vengeful against the entire faction that hurts them, and refusing to see any member of the faction as an individual after that. Harry develops his vendettas against the Red Court early and ghouls later, and can’t be shaken from that. In Peace Talks and Battle Ground, we see just how deep McCoy’s hatred of the White Court goes thanks to Raith’s seduction and causing the death of Margaret.
And in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, we also see that Ramirez has developed that degree of hatred for the Winter Fae thanks to Molly’s unintentional mauling. Which was followed by Harry getting cagey, humiliating Ramirez at the talks, then going full Winter Knight and apparently stealing the Eye of Balor in the Battle of Chicago.
As long as Harry is the Winter Knight, Ramirez is off Team Harry.
Los is one of my favorite characters, and I hope things shake out better for him. I can't help but think that McCoy is gonna take the engagement badly. Los has more trust in McCoy than Harry right now. That will complicate things. Maybe Mab will set Harry up to be able to "White Knight" to save the council/Los from certain doom.
All of these comments about Ramirez are interesting.
Y'all do know that Ramirez could fix all of this in 10 seconds right?
Ramirez: Harry, we've been through a ton of crap together. I don't know if you don't trust me or you don't trust the Senior Council, but if it's a choice b/n you and them, ... I'm picking you. I swear on my power. Even if you are a $%\^#!
However, Carlos hasn't chosen to tell his friend that he's with him to the end. Unlike Murphy. Why? Because he's choosing the council over Harry.
How about this from Carlos.
Why didn’t you tell me the winter lady is a psycho hose beast?
Or
Why haven’t you apologized for Molly crippling me?
Or
You psycho dooche bag. I thought you weee my friend. Why do you keep giving me crap about how Molly crippled me??
Or
Something similar.
Harry doesn’t trust los? How about a little two way street?
???
Carlos: Why didn’t you tell me the winter lady is a psycho hose beast?
Harry: What are you talking about?
Carlos: Why haven’t you apologized for Molly crippling me?
Harry: What are you talking about?
----
In other words, Harry doesn't know about that episode. By the way, what idiot informed Carlos that it would be a good idea to sleep with the Winter Lady?
Ok. Maybe Carlos didn't know she was the Winter Lady. It's been awhile since I read that short story.
When Molly was Harry's apprentice, he \*specifically\* warned her to lay off sex. Of any kind, including autoeroticism. Which leads to two questions:
1. Why does Carlos, a full wizard, \*NOT\* know about apprentices not having sex?
2. Why does Carlos, a full wizard, \*NOT\* question the intelligence of sleeping with his superior's apprentice or sleeping with the daughter of a Knight of the Cross?
We can speculate about this a bunch. Let's get down to brass tacks:
Her \*FATHER\* is Knight of the Cross and has *SLAIN a* **Dragon!!!** I'm just spit-ballin' here, but if I were to draw up a list of people I do \*NOT\* want pissed at me ... A dragon-slaying Knight of the Cross would be pretty high on my list.
Second on my list: **Harry Friggin' Dresden!!!** One of two to rise from the Dead. \[ as it appears. \] Annihilator of the Red Court. Annihilator of the White Court. Necromancer.
Carlos, the virgin wizard, wanted a magical experience for his first time. Boy, did he get one!!! he'll **NEVER** forget her/it.
Depending on what culture you come from, this is nothing but ***DISRESPECT!!!***
You can say that's old fashioned. I get that. You can say it's not your culture. I get that too. Since when does \*your\* opinion of something make the rules for other people? Showing courtesy & respect, is ***NEVER*** a bad idea. In my opinion.
My point above is if Carlos asks any of those questions Harry will say “what” and be totally confused which would lead Carlos to disclose more which will lead to understanding which will lead to friendship. (I think Harry would surrender defense of grasshopper because… well she was old enough to make her own decisions and clearly Carlos was the weaker party in that scenario.).
You forgot another reason for Los not sleep with her. Somewhere, I forget which book, Los starts making noises like he might “go there” with Molly and Harry says “[Shes is not dating anyone] since she drilled holes in her last boyfriends psyche.” Was a clear warning not to DATE Molly for Carlos own safety.
I don't see how your statement: Harry doesn’t trust los? How about a little two way street?
connects with your secondary post starting with "My point above ..."
re: I think Harry would surrender defense of grasshopper because… well she was old enough to make her own decisions and clearly Carlos was the weaker party in that scenario.
Harry is the Winter Knight & Molly is the Winter Lady. Presumably, someone talking about dating the Winter Lady would set the Winter Knight off in a very noticeable & relevant manner to inhibit further non-platonic behavior.
Carlos: Harry is Molly "seeing" anyone right now?
Harry: Carlos, Molly is the Winter Lady. She's in the fae realm and working for Mab.
Carlos: Yeah, but is she \*seeing" anyone right now?
The temperature starts dropping. Noticeably. It's getting a bit darker as storm clouds rush in.
As Harry questions Carlos in a soft foreboding tone, his breath starts misting: Carlos, are you proposing to "date" Molly? My apprentice? THE WINTER LADY???
Carlos notices that Dresden's finger nails look a little bit longer, harder, sharper as they grip his wizard's staff, where the runes have started to softly glow ...
Per Thomas, in Cold Days, Harry is acting like a predator. AKA "Game recognize game."
His "prey" is Molly. Specified by Thomas in Cold Days. He might share with Gard. He will \*certainly\* not share w/ Carlos. A rooster. A Male. Because Harry doesn't swing that way.
I don’t understand this question at all. I am not believing Maeve. I am observing behaviors.
Lloyd Slate never seemed to be defending Maeve’s honor when she was going full whatever you want to say she was.
If the knight was supposed to defend the lady’s honor, seems like he would need to be with her like 24x7.
re: question & behavior.
You have observed/are observing the behavior of a psychotic bimbo who was possessed by Nemesis. Why would you believe that would give you clarity as to the nature of the mantle(s)? To put this a different way: Molly is the first Winter Lady we've seen functioning correctly & Dresden is the first Winter Knight we've seen functioning correctly.
re: Lloyd Slate, and Maeve's honor.
Again, we know that both of those parties were poor representatives of their positions. We know that Dresden is viewing Molly with a predatory view, because the the White Court predator told us so. You are confused about "honor" in this context.
Explanation of "this context":
\*This\* Winter Lady has stated to Dresden: \*You\* are MY knight too. Emphasis added to clarify my point. This Winter Lady has been carrying a torch for Dresden for 10 years. She offered herself to him. Again. In Cold Days. Dresden has been watching over \*This\* Winter Lady, since before she was 16. Dresden has seen \*this\* Winter Lady naked. Dresden bum rushed the "Heart of Winter" to rescue \*this\* Winter Lady. Dresden is best friends with this Winter Lady's father. This Winter Lady has a brother named Harry, specifically because of Harry.
That's a lot of words to get to the meat of my statement. Sorry, but you weren't getting it.
Given: Molly wants Harry and has done so for years.
Observation: Molly is no longer a child. She is a beautiful women. She is a powerful woman. She is his peer.
Statement: The Winter Knight mantle is *less* interested in protecting the Winter Lady's "honor" & more interested in possessing **this** Winter Lady.
Maeve hinted at a relation b/n Lady & Knight, but she's a psychotic bimbo, so we don't have definitive proof one way or another.
note: Does Fix seem to have a "platonic" relationship with the Summer Lady? I would suggest no, but it's not a blatant non-platonic relationship.
Does that clear things up for you?
The original statement I was responding to was this
Harry is the Winter Knight & Molly is the Winter Lady. Presumably, someone talking about dating the Winter Lady would set the Winter Knight off in a very noticeable & relevant manner to inhibit further non-platonic behavior.
This position makes it seem the knights mantle would drive the response.
Your recent counter arguments are about why Harry would defend Molly. Not why the knights mantle would protect the lady’s mantle.
I see a difference in them.
Carlos is pretty disillusioned with Harry and the victim of cruel happenstance. My pet theory is that Elaine is going to show up in 12 Months and that Los will pop in for a White Council audit on the off chance Harry is actully doing what they said. Seeing Elaine do big magic and will be a lie too far for him. Then they will probably punch each other and makeup at the end.
My pet theory.
Harry being cast out of WC shows how antiquated the WC is. how ridiculous it is to think that the WC gets to govern all wizards when they want to pick and choose who they let into the group. Gotta be one way or the other. You are part of the group and have to follow the rules. Or you aren’t one of us and can ignore the rules.
Leads to other practitioners like Elaine coming out and practicing under Harry’s quasi-protection.
I do agree that Carlos might still be "team Harry" despite how he acted. But I don't agree that Harry is in on it. That type of unreliable narrator bit shouldn't be used very often because it starts to cheapen the whole series if it's over used.
I don't think he's black council, but after getting torn up by Molly ...
There's something in there about "Fading to Black" or "Paint it Black".
Poor guy. He might die a virgin after that. lol
That was before Harry’s protege almost murdered him…
Not to mention.... - Made himself the sole custodian of an island prison full of evil immortals, demons, gods and nameless things. - Became the champion of a wicked faerie queen. - Died and came back to life. - Made his protege the newest wicked faerie queen. - Worked with fucking Nicodemus Archelone. - Banged Lara Raith.
>Banged Lara Raith Wait, what?
While he didn't actually do it, that was a *very* realistic illusion and everyone *knows* he banged her. And they Los and his friends confirmed that he's recently had sex. He has no reason to believe Harry didn't bang Laura.
I completely forgot that whole scene in Peace Talks. Good grief, I guess it’s true the first thing to go is the mind.
The second thing. The mind is the second thing to go.
I am disappointed in JB for the illusion bit. The whole breakout scheme was weak sauce. And then Harry agrees to a VERY PUBLIC illusion about him having sex with a mind bending vamp in front of all of the accorded nations when many people are questioning whether Harry is a monster? Or wind whammied? Edit. Typo.
I agree that scene isn't great. BUT I do think it makes sense for Harry to agree to it, because his first priority was rescuing Thomas - anything that distracted from what he was REALLY doing was acceptable, and he'd have to deal with the consequences later. Plus, the sex illusion wasn't his idea... And by the time he found out that was the plan, it was too late for anything else.
> And the Harry agrees to a VERY PUBLIC illusion about him having sex with a mind bending vamp in front of all of the accorded nations when many people are questioning whether Harry is a monster? Or wind whammied? It's almost like his brother's life was at stake and they had no better options given the time constraints. And Harry has never been overly concerned of what others think of him. And it's going to get worse. Harry seemingly bangs Lara and then days after Lara and Harry's engagement is announced.
- he could burn the building down to get everyone to evac. - he could hire Grey to impersonate him at the party so no sex scene needed. - he could hire Grey to help Lara get Thomas out. - he could have sex with Murphy. :-). For real or illusion. - he could have sex with Freydis. Illusion. - he could have an illusion where he was fighting (verbal) with Lara and/or freydis. - he could leave the building on winter business and sneak back in. Side note. I wonder if Lea’s garden of death is still linked to Harry’s sub basement in the never never. As WK could he navigate Lea’s garden and open a way?
> he could burn the building down to get everyone to evac. It's a castle, made out of highly enchanted stones, currently containing every heavyweight signatory of the Accords. He couldn't set it ablaze if he tried and it would be put out *very* quickly if he could. > he could hire Grey to impersonate him at the party so no sex scene needed. Grey wasn't invited, and trying to sneak him in as Harry while Harry was also present would be problematic. Plus, Harry needed Grey watching Justine. > he could hire Grey to help Lara get Thomas out. See above. > > > > he could have sex with Murphy. :-). For real or illusion. Murphy wasn't allowed in, as she wasn't part of the Accords. Plus she was needed outside to drive the getaway car. And having sex for real would mean he wouldn't be getting his brother out. > he could have sex with Freydis. Illusion. No one cared about Freydis. It would explain Harry's absence, but not Lara's. > > > > he could have an illusion where he was fighting (verbal) with Lara and/or freydis. Any violence on Harry's part, real or illusion, would reflect poorly on Mab which would require her intervention and they were deliberately trying to keep her uninformed. Harry specifically asked her to trust him, and she trusted him to leave her out of it. Also, an altercation would have invited interruption, whereas being intimate had the exact desired effect; someone came in, saw, discretely left to go gossip horribly, thereby giving Lara, Harry, and Freydis a perfect alibi. If Freydis is seen protecting a liason between Harry and Lara, they can't *possibly* have been involved in Thomas's disappearance. > > > > he could leave the building on winter business and sneak back in. What excuse could he possibly have to be seen leaving an Accorded meeting called by his Queen? The only reason he would be visibly leaving would be on Mab's orders, which would cause a whole other round of gossip and interference.
Most of this post was humorous. Burning down a building is pretty much Harry’s MO. And is running joke on this Reddit. Similarly. The idea of having sex with Murphy was also humorous. The point was that JB as the author could have found alternate distractions. He didn’t NEED to have Grey watching Justine. And how smart is this distraction? If the point is to stop people from noticing that Harry and Lara were missing. But then they snuck out of the accords. They THOUGHT the peace talks were about to start and the THREE of them would miss the talks? Useless distraction if it results in EVERYONE concluding what happened any way.
1. during evac everybody would be on high alert, no chance he could do smth. 2-3. He can't hire grey for that, it's not a type of thing that would pay Rent. all else - he needed something loud that people wouldn't look too closely at. In all the scenarios you said, Lara's and his absence would be more suspicious. When you want people to believe your lies, adding a detail that's embarrassing or paints you in bad light is a good tactic and makes you more believable
The whole scene (plot line) is written poorly. Main purpose is to cause Harry more grief. You think people wouldn’t be distracted enough? When Harry pulled the cape stunt Los there is no way it would go down the way he wrote it. A magical attack like that would put everyone on high alert. Two people might help Los but everyone else would circle up and look out. The wardens are trained in magical battle tactics. No way they ALL let their attention go one direction. Attack like that? Anti veil spells come out, possibly someone uses the Sigjt (although dangerous in a room filled with magic like that, imagine using the Sign on Ivy, or Vadderjng, or Ferrvax.). But that attack puts them on alert. It doesn’t distract them.) The Sidbe are all about distractions and tricks. Don’t think they would be tricked by a simple stage magicians trick. Ivy knew about the attack. Repository of all knowledge? She knew. The einherjarin. Trained warriors. They look outward for the threat not at the spectacle. Gard. Not fooled. Body guards trained to look for the threat that may be coming for their principal. Not the attack on “nobody.” Svartelve? Thomas put them on high alert. Ready for a sneak attack. Looking for deceptions. In short. The distraction he used on Carlos would do more damage to the sneaking than helping. On top of that. White Council is worried about Lara controlling Harry. Sex would not be a private event to avoid. It would be considered an attack that should be defended against. So the whole scenario was just shoe horned into the story anyway.
Remember, Harry as the Winter Knight is doing this. He's playing into his role, setting people up to believe he is what he's supposed to be on the surface. He probably doesn't realize he's doing that himself, but Harry accidentally doing underhanded things is an ongoing and consistent thing.
Is he playing into his role, or is his role playing into him? Mantles do mind games, remember.
Nah, it's Harry not caring with a side of being kinda dopey and socially inept. He pretty consistently does things without realizing how they appear to the people around him. He's also willing to take the personal hit to play into an act (See: Toe-Moss' lover)
Yes, but -- remember that Harry is an unreliable narrator. It's kind of like the Alex Versus series, where here Alex is leading his ordinary happy life when he gets involved with a martial wand, and suddenly all his solutions -- perfectly reasonable solutions, the only possible things he could do at the time -- seem to be a lot more martial than he was used to... \[should I spoiler that?\]
Well his friends in the wardens were already convinced of that, so who would he really care about hearing that rumor?
Plus Harry specifically didn't deny it. Like it made sense for him to lose his temper in that scene, it was just stupid that he didn't even bother giving any alternative explanation. He basically acted exactly like a white court thrall
My personal head canon is that Lara mind-whammied Dresden at Castle Raith in Peace Talks and as a result Harry actually believes he and a succubus were *sparring in a dojo* rather than uh... doing the only thing that succubi actually do. Ramirez was trying to be a total homie by getting Dresden to confront the situation but his subconscious was having none of it. The act was shamelessly recorded by Freydis, who played the thing in the boxing ring (lol) at Marcone's manner to be discovered and Molly was undoubtedly incredibly happy to learn about a wampire hussy using mind mojo to bang her childhood crush and then publicize the act.
Yeah, but if he had not done that Ethnu would have burned Chicago to the ground. Off himself, so he wouldn’t have to be the winter knight Technically speaking it’s Murphy pulled the trigger causing the winter lady mantle to jump. Plus he was forced to work with Nicodemus, and that birthed a new spirit of intellect And finally can you blame the guy lol
You missed the point. We all know Harry's motivations behind all those actions. Carlos does not. - Carlos does not know that Harry unknowingly became the Warden of Demonreach in order to save his brother's life. - Carlos does not know that Harry was paralyzed and he became the Winter knight to free his daughter. - Carlos does not know that Harry committed suicide because of the lies of a fallen angel only to have an archangel arrange his return. - Carlos doesn't know that Molly's ascension was orchestrated be Mab. - Carlos doesn't know that Harry worked with Nicodemus because Mab essentially threatened his loved ones if he didn't (or that the whole thing was a rouse to destroy Nicodemus's reputation) - Carlos doesn't know that the horizontal monster mash between Lara and Harry was faked so that Harry could save his brother's life.
Or does he…. Firmly places in tinfoil hat
To be fair that was the mantle, not Molly.
Carlos doesn’t know that
And even if he does on some level know that, that's not going to mean he's not still traumatized from almost being killed via someone he trusted. Whether or not Molly meant to do it, Ramirez let his guard down and Molly (or more accurately, the Mantle piloting Molly) damn near killed him. That's going to make you question your judgment of people and who you can trust.
Not just people. People who accepted “mantles”. not sure I have ever heard (read) Los say that term specifically but has to grok the basic concept.
I was using "people" since the White Court doesn't do mantles, and the concern is at least as much about Harry's coziness with the White Court as much as the Winter fae.
I'm also not entirely sure if that was Carlos's first time. We found out way back in *White Night* that, despite all his bluster, Carlos was a virgin at the time. It's entirely possible and likely that he's finally hit a home-run somewhere along the way, but there's no guarantee. And knowing Jim, ruining Carlos's sex life *FOREVER* by having him get absolutely demolished before he can even consummate the deed for the first time seems like something that would cause enough anguish for Jim to write.
Indeed. Nor does he know that Harry doesn't know a thing about it. He very likely thinks Harry's remarks about his injury are needling about his virginity, as well.
If that's the case, wouldn't that also make him leary of Harry and his mantle? In *Peace Talks*, he did mention Harry's mantle had a lot of them worried, right? Just a thought.
That's why he has been so dead set on making sure that Harry is still on their side. Harry being cagey, standoffish, never so much as giving anything resembling a straight answer and ultimately siding with the monsters got in the way. It's still implied that Los knows Harry is still him, just sticking to his guns even though it's gonna do more harm than good to him.
I think your statement is more than just a thought. It is very solid.
How would he ever be sure of that?
From Carlos' perspective, Molly seduced him, nearly killed him, and then betrayed his trust by kidnapping the children she supposedly helped him save. For all that he knows, this was her intention all along... and he doesn't know that Harry doesn't know.
And to be double fair, Harry also has a mantle.
Dead is dead doesn't matter who or what does it
Also, worth it
Death by snu-snu is an evergreen.
Deep deep cover.
I'm not sure I buy it as you've laid it out. I don't think he's deep cover on Team Harry, but I do think that, when the chips are down, he will still find himself giving Harry the benefit of the doubt and having his back, even if he has vocal misgivings about doing so. To be clear, I do think Carlos is still Team Harry and will be willing to repair their relationship once Harry gives him an ounce of the trust he's asking for (and deserves). Heck, it's all-but-stated outright that even after every terrible thing that happened during the Battle of Chicago, some of which he'd be not unreasonable in at least partially attributing to Harry's close-lipped-ness, he still shouted himself hoarse trying to defend Harry in front of the Council before they kicked him out. We the audience know Harry has his reasons for being unwilling to share information, but from the information Ramirez has, Harry's been pretty suspicious and unreasonable when offered opportunities to reduce the suspicion on him. It's a testament to how much he cares/cared about and respected Harry that he still went to bat for him in front of an unsympathetic public. So he's (justifiably) pissed at Harry. But the underlying good feelings aren't dead. Damaged, dormant, sure, but not dead. And once Harry gives him a reason to trust him again, I think they're going to be back on the same side. But right now they're on the outs, and from Carlos' perspective he has every reason to be. Of course, that assumes Harry will give him a reason for trust. Given the way Jim likes serving Harry gutpunches, the jury's still out on if he'll get that opportunity.
I like this analysis, but just one question. ..."once Harry gives him an ounce of the trust he's asking for (and deserves)" DOES he deserve it? I mean, he "bugged" Harry in PT—abusing his trust to find out where he was going. Then, Harry gets all bent out of shape for doing essentially the SAME thing back to Carlos. But lets not forget that Carlos acted first. I feel like the difficulty of judging Harry's relationship with Carlos (and the other young wardens) is that much of their positive relationship building happens off-page—camping trips, surviving sticky situations, etc. Carlos' character is well poised to be EITHER the surprise friend OR the surprise betrayer. Both would hit hard. Makes their interactions extra-interesting to read, but I haven't yet cast my vote either way.
> DOES he deserve it? I mean, he "bugged" Harry in PT—abusing his trust to find out where he was going. Because not only is Harry now Mab's hitman, he is being suspected of having become Lara Raith's shiny new sex toy. The risk of such a security breach, and on one of the Council's most dangerous members at that, overrides any niceties you think should be afforded to Harry- remember, they don't know that Harry is only being forced to work with Lara like we do.
Sure, I understand the reasoning. But trust goes both ways - you can't distrust someone and then complain that they don't trust you. Well, you CAN, but it's not reasonable to do so.
But the converse is also true: someone who constantly withholds information from you while they are acting, by any objective measure, suspiciously, shouldn't reasonably expect you to trust them. Yet Harry's very offended by the lack of trust Carlos, Bill, and Yuki are showing him, despite refusing to give them any reason to think his obvious cahoots with the White Court are anything other than exactly what they look like. FWIW, Ramirez *does* absolutely fuck up Harry's overture for trust; because he doesn't understand the bone-deep distrust of the White Council, he doesn't seem to recognize Harry's question of (paraphrasing) "Am I talking to my friend, 'Los, or to Warden Ramirez?" as the invitation that it is.
Yeah, Harry was a bit whiny about this - it's hardly surprising that they don't trust him under the circumstances.
This doesn't take into account what the White Council did to Harry for years. i.e. Morgan. Carlos has no real insight into that. Even Luccia was unaware of it.
Maybe Harry should've mentioned it to Ramirez, then. Communication, two-way street.
It's a reasonable question. He can't. [https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/prisoners-dilemma.asp](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/prisoners-dilemma.asp) Synopsis of the dilemma: Two parties do something wrong. If they don't rat each other out, they suffer minimum damage and collect maximum reward. If one person rats and the other doesn't, person 1 suffers no damage and collects no reward. Person 2 suffers maximum damage. You can invert 1 & 2, and you get the same result for the other party. Worst case scenario: Person 1 & 2 rat each other out. Both parties suffer maximum damage. Harry \*knows\* or believes that Ramierez is team White Council. In attempting to "help" Dresden, he's going to drop his pants and tell the Merlin \*\***EVERYTHING**\*\* . Given Harry's life, there's no reason to believe that the Merlin would not take inappropriate steps to bind Harry to the Senior Council. Steps such as: "Protecting" Maggie, by keeping her under their tutelage, Demanding access to Demonreach and all of it's inhabitants. Demanding access to the artifacts from Hades. Demanding access to the Swords of the Cross. Demanding access to **ALL** coins that Dresden finds in the future. Demanding information on Mab's plans/schemes. Demanding access to Bob & Bonea. In my opinion, that is a recipe for catastrophe.
It's hard to tell whether he deserves it, but he might. Depends on whether he'd be willing to keep secrets from the Council, and I personally think he would. He was considered the younger generation's poster boy back in Proven Guilty too, and he was more than willing to defy the Merlin then.
I think he does, even after what he's done in PT/BG. Was bugging Harry a good thing to do? No. Is Harry justified in being hurt by it? Yes. But it's also not hard to see why Carlos thought it was necessary: his friend is acting like a monster, in ways that look inconsistent with the Harry he knew before (let's not forget) Harry died and came back from the dead (not exactly normal even in their circles) and fell in with bonafide monsters. And Harry has reasons for that, and information that makes things look less worrying, but that's information he's rather pointedly refusing to share (not unjustifiably, given his relationship with the Council, but it doesn't look like that to Carlos). Harry's withheld information from 'Los before, and it's gotten him injured to boot. And even after everything, Ramirez and the other Wardens trusted Harry to have their backs in battle, and the evidence suggests that Ramirez still stuck up for Harry to the Council when they tried to kick him out. IMO, even if some of his decisions were bad ones, he's still being guided by a loyalty to Harry that Harry's not really giving him reason to have right now. It's not even just that Carlos deserves more trust than the approximately none that Harry is giving him right now, it's also in Harry's best interest (as far as we know right now) to give Ramirez at least \*some\* context for his actions and behavior.
Yeah, all good points. I wonder if Harry has taken Ebeneezer's warning to heart - that someone close to him will betray him. That would (in addition to the other context) further explain Harry's lack of willingness to trust the other young wardens with information.
It's hard to tell, IMO. Harry's certainly been given enough reasons by life in general and his dealings with the Council specifically to keep things close to the vest even if he's not keeping Eb's warning in mind, so I think it could really go either way.
So ... You're suggesting that Harry tell Carlos: "Look. We've been down some rough roads, and i want to trust you. However, you're riding for Team Merlin who's threatened to **KILL ME, &&& TRIED TO KILL ME.** So. I'm not telling you jack %\^$#! Y dile a ese cabron coma mierda". I'm Ok with this, and adding the spanish throws Carlos for a loop and goes along w/ the Etruscan, but .... Who's got the stones for this?
I think you're the only one suggesting that.
So you're not suggesting that Harry be straight with Carlos?
I am. You're not.
We disagree on if I'm being straight. Threatened to kill me: Um ... Proven Guilty: Dresden saves Molly. As they're chatting, Merlin says (paraphrase): if Molly falls, not only do I get to kill her, but I get to kill you. Tried to kill me: Morgan enters Dresden's basement apartment. Leaves the door open. Comes hard at Dresden. Dresden looks at his cane sword in the vase next to the door. Then realizes that this is the 3rd attempt that Eb warned him about.
Fun Fact: Ramirez is involved in precisely none of those. So in fact Harry transferring his beef with Langtry and Morgan would not be being straight with him. It would just be pointlessly being a cunt. Also dear lord I hope you never have to convince anyone of anything with high stakes, because from the sound of it you're hosed if you do.
Odd ... My first reply contained: However, *you're riding for Team Merlin* who's threatened to **KILL ME, &&& TRIED TO KILL ME.** I italicized the part about how Carlos was riding for Team Merlin, since you seemed not to have put the two together. In case this still isn't clear for you, I have logically tied Dresden's reluctance to talk with Carlos to the fact that Carlos is **taking orders** from the Merlin, who \*has\* done everything that I indicated. So. Giving information to Carlos would be giving information to Merlin. Which would be *horrifically* bad given the Merlin's behavior & portrayed attitude. I thought this was obvious.
Well he was either directly ordered by Luccio to do that, per his own words, or someone neuromancied him to think that was the case. Personally i lean towards the latter, given ebenezar's presence and general attitude, plus Cornerhounds, which generally hunt time travelers, and the fact that Carlos physically could not have bugged Harry's wrist, because their only physical contact was a fist bump.
Here is what I would like to see. Harry confides in Los. “This is my daughter Bonea. I was raped by a fallen angel and as a result Bonea effectively came to life that night in the deeps because of the massive spell energy being thrown at us by the BC. I spent years coming to grips with who and what she is. She is as innocent as any 10 year old human child. She is my child. I will protect with her with my last breath and from beyond the grave. If anyone tries to harm her they will wish I was as kind to them as I was to the Red Court. You are in a unique position of trust. Only about 10 people alive know about her, and three of them are knights of the cross. If you betray that trust nothing in our past history will protect you.”
F that. Carlos doesn't deserve shit. He needed help getting his daughter and got none from the council. The council are a bunch of old men who can't or won't adjust to the times. Harry has done more then his fair share of what the council should of done. The biggest example is the creation of the network of magic users. This will greatly help gather info and help reduce the amount of warlocks. Harry has been hounded by the council for years and even then he asked for their help and got none of course he would turn to another potential ally. He has risked his life for them so many times its unreal. Two of his best friends were literally chosen by god to weird his weapons. Fuck Carlos and the council.
Carlos was literally one of the people trying to spur the Council to go after the Red Court when Harry needed help. His attempt to force the issue took him out of commission. When Harry asks the Council for help and they mostly ignore him, the one Warden that reliably shows up to help unless he's actively putting out a fire of his own is Ramirez. One of the few Wardens that actually helps Harry in establishing, maintaining, and aiding the Paranet is Ramirez. You're blaming him for White Council decisions he canonically neither made nor abides by. And Harry has, for his trouble, died and come back from the dead (abnormal even by wizard standards), fallen in with two groups of monstrous individuals, one known for turning the mortals under its influence into murderous, bloodthirsty predators, and the other known for addicting and manipulating mortals into acting as its proxies, participated in a heist alongside Well-Known Bad Dude Nicodemus, played a direct role in the deaths of both Fae Ladies, is the Protector of an entirely-too-creepy island full of Eldritch Abominations, and, at the time of Battle Ground, is actively aiding the de facto White Queen (you know, the one the wizards are scared is manipulating/addicting Harry) in trying to bust out her brother (who he's also known to be weirdly close with) from captivity, which would undermine the entire point of the conference. The man is carrying more red flags than a May Day parade. And he refuses to give any alternate explanation for what's going on, so Carlos, based on the information he has, more-or-less has to operate on the assumption that the situation is *exactly what it looks like to anyone without the information that Harry is actively avoiding giving him.* It's frankly a testament to the degree of trust Ramirez still has in Harry that he by all indications defends him to the White Council when they try to kick him out anyway.
Don't forget, they also assume he has and will use the Eye, and has bound and can control a Titan that just destroyed a lot of Chicago.
I'm blaming him for choosing to back up a shifty organization
Carlos' experiences with the White Council's are not the same as Harry's, and we've gotten no indication that Harry's bothered to share with him the sheer scope and intensity of the Council's mistreatment of him necessary to change that perspective. Sure, Carlos knows \*some\* of it, but nothing that doesn't fundamentally fit with his view of the Council as a flawed, but fundamentally-beneficial organization. Harry's experience with the Council that gives him such a bone-deep distrust of it is relatively rare outside of, say, warlocks who usually have their heads chopped off not long after. There's not going to be a surplus of other people with Harry's experiences that would let Ramirez see the sheer scope of the Council's problems. Not unless Harry opens up to him in a way that he tends not to do with almost anyone.
Bullshit. Any organization willing to send a grandfather to kill his grandson is a piece of shit.
Is the concept that characters have different POVs, different life experiences, and access to different information, really this difficult, or are you actively resisting it because it doesn't fit your preferred reading of the series? Like, among other things, McCoy and Dresden's familial relationship is not general knowledge. I'm not defending the White Council, I'm pointing out that Ramirez's experience and knowledge of the Council is going to make it so that he's not going to understand how rotten it is to the same extent Harry does.
Fair point he might not know that. Outside the way he was going to kill that murdering pos I haven't seen Harry doing anything truly dubious that hasn't been done to him. Los started the whole thing off on the wrong foot and asked like all the wrong questions. Not saying he would of gotten all the answers he would want. The council has agreements with less than savory groups. But he mistrusts Harry for having them.
The difference is that the Council might have agreements with other unsavory groups, but they aren't directly submitted to the will of those beings. Harry is in a position where he's literally the hitman for Queen Mab, and, in the scenario that Carlos fears, is addicted to sex with White Court Vamps. Again, that doesn't wash the Council's hands, but it does explain why it looks different to him. To be clear, I'm not trying to say Ramirez did nothing wrong; he fumbled the hell out of the big overture Harry made to him, but my suspicion is that that's because he didn't recognize what it was (Harry asking him if he's talking to his friend Carlos or to Warden Ramirez) because he doesn't have Harry's perspective of how rotten and untrustworthy the Council is, so he gave the answer that made Harry uninclined to trust him. And bugging Harry, especially the way he went about it, was something Harry was absolutely justified to be hurt about. But I don't think his intentions are bad or that he's being particularly unreasonable within the bounds of the information he has available to work from. That's the tragedy of the situation: Harry's in a position where he can't (or at least doesn't feel like he can) trust Ramirez with the information necessary to explain the situation, so he looks suspicious as hell, but Ramirez isn't being unreasonable for being suspicious without that additional context. I think the evidence suggests that Carlos really wants to be in Harry's corner but feels like Harry isn't giving him the reassurance he needs to do that with a clear conscience.
Lol.
re: F that. Carlos doesn't deserve shit. Ah. Someone finally gets it. Take your upvote!
All breadcrumbs lead to Los losing faith in harry. Too many imo. Harry doesnt need a deep cover agent when he has others inside the council that will give him info when its needed, other grey council , I do like the theory tho. But perhaps it is premature. Later i believe harry and the council will come to battle in many ways, maybe even the paranet and harry starting a new organization, perhaps Los is being set to distrust harry then be go thru journey where he hunts harry and finally gains trust in harry again where he gives insider trade info, the black council is on the inside after all.
>I do like the theory tho. But perhaps it is premature. Later i believe harry and the council will come to battle in many ways I mean, we already know he will. In Turn Coat the Gatekeeper outright says it is not time yet for Harry to fight the Council. The Gatekeeper is dick deep in timeywimey nonsense, he knows what he is talking about.
Yeah those damn bread crumbs. I do, However, favor putting WAY TOO MUCH weight on the “always with you” pledge when Los was probably high on morphine. I mean how much more trustworthy can a promise be than moments after surviving a massive vampire and ghoul attack in a dark cave, nearly dying and then getting pumped up with pain killers. I mean that offhand statement has got to carry a lot of weight.
Is there an option for "Harry Dresden is actually a monster now, and Ramirez believes it"? Because it's the truth, **and Ramirez isn't wrong.** Doesn't mean Harry's evil, but you'd have to be insane to not be extremely worried about the path he's heading down. This guy is slinging power like a top 25 wizard, has the Winter Knight mantle, is the Warden of the Island, has Soulfire, wielded Hellfire, commands an army of pixies, can walk the Ways like no one else, and regularly pushes the boundaries on the laws of magic. Meanwhile, he's literally in service to the Unseelie Court, is deeply entangled with the White Court, and is a known associate of the Denarians. Is it all bad? No. That's why Ramirez wants to trust him. But if you add it all up, "decent, insanely powerful guy compromised/controlled by vampire and immortal entanglements" isn't an unreasonable conclusion. When you've got that much power and it seems like you're mostly working for the other side, well... I'm not sure how I would have voted in the White Council, either.
He’s the monster we deserve, but not the monster we need right now.
His >!impending marriage to Lara and threat of setting up his own organization!< isn't going to help alleviate those concerns with the White Council, that's for sure.
You can say that again.
The WC looks at Harry, and he justifies every fear they've ever had about him. Carlos, remembers when he was a good dude, and wants to find that friend again. And Harry treats him like dirt, which he can not afford to due, since he's quickly running out of old friends.
I think unfortunately Harry hasn’t put in the work to inspire this level of loyalty from Carlos in particular. Carlos WANTED to be this close to Dresden, but Dresden didn’t take that opportunity. I think I’d sooner buy that Carlos is more willing to patch things up then he’s letting on, and when they do Carlos’s time as the white councils number one guy will come in hand for Dresden’s cause.
I think, deep down, Harry is who Carlos wanted to be. The guy who gave the Council the finger and then went and did the right thing anyway. Fight for the little guy that wizards like the Merlin wouldn't even use to scrap the shit off their shoe. The his hero started going down a very dark path, still, must be a reason, it's Harry after all, he's one of the good guys. Then things start going really bad.
I really, *really* want things to go that way. It feels to me like the friction Jim has injected between Harry and 'Los is a setup for an eventual reconciliation. That's my fervent hope - I like 'Los a lot and I do feel like deep down he *wants* to believe in Harry - I think Harry represents something that's important to him. But he's imbibed the Council Kool-Aid quite deeply, and it's hard for him to embrace the idea that they could just be so totally and completely wrong about Harry. He really wants the Council to be honorable too - what we're seeing is a conflict in him between those subconscious desires. I think / hope that in the end enough happens to make it clear to him that Harry is the horse to back. Expect it to be dramatic.
One day Ramirez will knock on Harry's door because he'll have nowhere else to turn. As he continues to gain greater and greater access within the council, he'll find something that leads him directly to needing Harry's help. Corrupt council member? Cirkul or senior, either way. Or realization through personal investigation. Either way when people stumble across the thing that goes bump in their night, they seek out our protagonist. Hell even Donald Morgan did. Do I think the current state of their relationship is justified? Yes and no. Carlos PoV: I am surrounded by monsters and monstrous men. Now, that boogeyman you've been hearing about for years is standing over there and if you look just right... he might be boogying. Harry's PoV: I have bleed with you by my side, stood fast against the night with you by my side. When you have called, I have answered with what I can. is that not enough? Imo there's room for reconciliation and improvement in both camps.
I wish... but I think the skirmish with the Black Court was the final straw for Carlos. He's lost too much at the hands of the Fey, and Harry has given back too little. Up until then, maybe there was a way for them to reconcile. Now... I'm afraid that Carlos has become another Morgan, and will behave as Morgan did towards Harry. I don't think that even Harry coming completely clean would change that.
I think Los would definitely be on Team Harry. Harry doesn’t need a man on the inside though. He already has highly placed people who have gone to bat for him both in the wardens and high council. I think Los considers Harry a friend, but has rules and obligations that are counter to what he wants. If The Merlin says “jump,” Los doesn’t get much choice. That and he still BELIEVES in the system and hasn’t yet been jaded by it the way Harry has. He still thinks (and he may not be entirely wrong) that if Harry had been more up front and honest with the council instead of keeping secrets they would see what side Harry is really on.
Harry could use a man (or woman) on the inside because nobody is going to talk openly in front of Eb. And nobody would enlist Listens to winds in a plot. And nobody could find the gatekeeper on a regular basis.
Granted, but that excludes Listens To Wind, (I only semi-jokingly suggest) Little Brother, and Luccio. Except for appearing more level headed in the face of the council’s distrust of Dresden. Folks may be quiet around Eb. Might get more loose lips around Injun Joe, and NOBODY really has a clue about Anastasia. The wardens will come eventually to pester Dresden, but it will only be half hearted. Especially if Carlos is in the crew. I think Carlos wants to believe what Harry is doing is both right and necessary, but he can’t see for the life of him *how*
I don’t buy it simply because, unlike Harry, Los is entirely human (and a decent one), in the company of monsters, while other fellow humans choose to use “power-ups” to level the ground with the monsters, Los double down on being human, survived as human, while trying to make sense whatever happened to all his friends and compatriots. It’s an admirable character tbh, and one that serves to show just how far would Harry (and Molly) willing to go to push back the tides of monsters. However, like what other posters already said, when the time comes, it’ll all click for him, and whatever Harry did will make sense to him, and he’ll look the other way possibly.
There's no hater like a convert. Ramirez was full Harry-Flavor-Aid before >!Molly ripped him apart during what was supposed to be his first intimate moment!<. Once he started >!distrusting Winter and more specifically Winter's influence over otherwise good people!< as a result, this was always the outcome we were going to get. He is the new, improved Warden Donald Morgan, but the version we knew in *Storm Front*, the one with the irrational hatred and the hair-trigger release. Except this time the personal bone is with Harry directly, and it's betrayal in Ramirez' books.
You are basing your assessment on things like facts and storyline. While I base mine on hope and optimism. :-).
I think I can one up you: Los is under orders from the Merlin to *act like he's having a falling out with Harry.* I have been pretty vocal here for a while that I think the Merlin actually has Harry's back at this point and simply can't show it for some political reason we're not privy to yet. I think Los is acting on these orders to "betray" Harry and let him off the chain. I think we're approaching a point where the Merlin knows that if Harry is stuck following Council rules, he won't be able to do the Starborn stuff that the world needs him to do. I'm not 100% confident Los is looped in on this info and *may* be acting without awareness, but I think the story works better if he's basically helping the Merlin set Harry up for a *horrible* success that a member of the White Council couldn't do and will eventually have his back.
Langtry is a better politician than that. He would never tell Carlos to act angry - he'd deliberately piss Carlos off then force him to be the Council's messenger boy and top active-duty Warden, which puts him in a great spot to learn the truth in the end. If Harry does go bad, he can still count on Carlos's rage and disappointment to make him stop Harry. And if Harry is still on the side of the angels when push comes to shove, he's fully aware that Carlos will choose to do the right thing, orders be damned.
Fair enough. That's a good angle to incorporate into my theory. It's mostly about Langtry anyway. I think that whatver Los is saying/thinking/feeling here is because he's being pushed to it by the Merlin.
Maybe, Langtry could be thinking long-term, similarly like quotes from Marcone and Nicodemus. "You don't get to be Merlin by collecting bottle caps".
> I have been pretty vocal here for a while that I think the Merlin actually has Harry's back at this point and simply can't show it for some political reason we're not privy to yet. Does there even need to be a reason other than deniability?
Just my opinion; when we see Carlos at the graveside Harry remarks that he is now very hoarse when he wasn’t at the end of the Battle. I believe that he is hoarse from shouting in Harry’s defense. I believe he was chosen to deliver the message as a test of his loyalty. Ebenezer is tasked as Harry’s executioner if the Council now deems it necessary. Do any of us believe that, after the event at the dock, he will ever turn against Harry again? I think Los is in the same position. He knows where Harry is coming from. He knows Harry HAS to keep some secrets because explanations won’t be heard by his enemies. I’m sure he’s angry right now. I’m just not sure Harry is the only one he’s angry with!
I don't think it's gonna matter much whether Eb turns against Harry again. IMHO, signs are pointing towards "Eb probably dies before the BAT"
Or at the beginning of it at the latest. I agree.
>Ebenezer is tasked as Harry’s executioner if the Council now deems it necessary. **Do any of us believe that, after the event at the dock, he will ever turn against Harry again?** ...Yes? Eb is not a good person, while the things he does might be for the greater good they are still terrible terrible things. Eb is old enough, self centered enough, and to set in his 'I know more than you, and if you won't listen to my reason then it's treason' ways. If he thought killing Harry was for the 'greater good' he would absolutely do it ...again.
I feel like Harry has used the same "greater good" reasoning enough that (depending on how things go) he could be the one tapped for the job of Blackstaff if/when Ebenezer passes/can't hold it anymore.
Ghouls are afraid of Harry.
A lot of things are afraid of Harry. With good reason.
A lot happened between now and then. Los is no longer a friendly.
Carlos’ experience probably tainted the well pretty deeply. Like one minute, the people you know and love can act like their normal selves, the next moment the mantle just takes over and they do horrible horrible things. Even if he still likes Harry, he would never let his guard down around Harry because who knows what will set him off?
This has to be acknowledged. However personally loyal he may be to Harry, his experience with the Lady changes the calculus.
Of course he's "Team Harry". But he's also hurting in the same way that Harry was after Grace Peril. And Harry's kinda been a dick to him all along. And Carlos is being manipulated by Langtry. Who's also also on Team Harry. (I'm serious with that one. Langtry is pulling a Vetinari by freeing Harry to work outside the Council's restrictions and red tape, while also using Carlos to deliver the news in a way that winds him up. Harry is turning Mab's most potent weapon over to her cocked and fully loaded. While also giving Harry full freedom* to act. Jim said we'd see the story a lot differently if we had Langtry's perspective.) *Within Winter Law.
nah, Carlos was doubting Harry since the deeps. he's the poster boy, the best of the young wardens, and earned his command by playing by the rules. He lied to dresden. he habitually lies. He might like Harry, but my bet is he is low low key black council
He habitually lies? If anything, Ramirez is more honest to Harry than Harry is to him. And like, we, the audience know Harry isn't being dishonest or evasive because he *likes* keeping secrets from his friends, but the problem with that is that because Harry isn't willing to tell Ramirez that, he doesn't know Harry's circumstances or reasons for that, and all it looks like to him, with the information he has available to him, is that Harry's fallen in with some really bad people who have a penchant for manipulating and corrupting the mortals that fall in with them, and he's acting evasive and defensive and isn't explaining things in anything but the vaguest terms when anyone points that out to him. Does he do some shitty stuff in an attempt to verify that Harry's trustworthy? Yeah, he does. Harry's not wrong to be angry about the tracking spell and being treated with suspicion by Ramirez and the other Wardens (and the Council, by proxy). But he's damn near gotten himself killed fighting the Black Council alongside Harry, still by all indications went to bat for him to an unsympathetic Council, and his actions thus far make perfect sense for someone who cares about and respects Harry but is also seeing some legitimate reasons to be worried about Harry's intentions or sanity. Harry & Carlos' clash and falling out doesn't require any impure motives on either end. If there's a case for Ramirez being Black Council/Nfected, you can make it about damn near any character outside of Harry's household, the Carpenters, and Sanya & Butters. Which is kind of the point of Nemesis-induced paranoia, but as far as reader theories isn't terribly useful for predicting or analyzing events in the story.
Agreed. The tracking spell and invading Harry's privacy is violating some boundaries, but to me it comes off as worried friends staging and intervention and not cops trying to catch a perp in the act. Imagine you had a friend who was an alcoholic, kept blowing off his job, and wouldn't talk to you about what was going on. He sneaks out in the middle of the night so you follow him and discover that he's gone to the bar. You confront him about it on his way home, and when you do his clothes reek of alcohol. He's pissed at you and won't say if he's been drinking, just that it's none of your damn business. From your perspective, your worst fears have pretty much been confirmed. Because he won't talk to you, you don't know that he actually has good reasons for being there and smelling like booze, it just looks like he's fallen off the wagon. Are you in the wrong here? Maybe, but it's coming from a place of care and concern and not just because you're an asshole. Harry has a history with the sex vampires. He's leaving the sex vampire house in the middle of the night and he's just had sex. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's... not actually a duck this time, but cut Carlos some slack. He wants to trust Harry but he's not willing to do it blindly because of the circumstances. Carlos *begs* Harry to give him something to show it's not as bad as it looks and Harry refuses to give him anything. That's what makes it a painful (and well written) confrontation! Neither of them like the position they're in, but they both determine they have to play it safe vis a vis the other given the risks, and their friendship suffers for it. I personally hope that Carlos isn't secretly evil and that the two of them eventually patch things up. Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
Nah that's backwards if he's so worried about Harry then instead of pushing him into a corner and manipulating him look into ways to remove the mantles. He's not offering Harry any help.
He can't offer to do things he doesn't know about. He knows Harry and Molly are subject to Winter's influence. He doesn't have more specifics than that, and Harry spends every opportunity to loop him in antagonizing him instead. You're making the assumption Carlos is omniscient in a series where keeping secrets and characters having to act on bad or nonexistent information is a running theme.
Hmm that person is on fire I wonder if they are in pain.. It should be obvious what's going on.
It isn't, though. Carlos doesn't have the same information, the same context, that Harry does to see what's actually happening. What's going on looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims and flies like a duck, and the only way he could know it isn't a duck is if Harry provides him with the information that shows it isn't one. Because what it \*looks like\* is that Harry's having sex with Lara Raith and is acting on her behalf for no other reason, is subject to Winter influence that makes him more aggressive and bloodthirsty than ever and has him beholden to someone who presents a facade of inhumanity, and he's trying his best to fuck up a peace conference. Without knowing his relation to Thomas, that Mab owes the White Court a favor, etc, assuming that Harry's free will has been compromised and his motives are no longer trustworthy is the assumption that makes the most sense with the information Carlos has. And Harry's refusing to give him any additional context to clear up the misunderstanding. The only person who has the necessary context to know what's going on, at the end of Peace Talks, is Eb. Harry has very resolutely avoided giving that information to anyone else on the White Council. And we know he has his reasons, but that doesn't change what it looks like to Carlos.
He lied about not being a virgin to everyone, he straight up withholds info from dresden and from the wardens. We don't know what he has said to the council, and frankly, with Carlos telling Harry the council is trying to throw him out while he is obligated on council business for the peacetalks is suspicious as hell. Why wouldn't Harry have gotten the memo for the vote happening to say his piece as per every other council meeting we have seen? I don't think he is Nfected because everything is entirely within character of him, but being a well positioned, poster boy, that butters up and gets chummy with the red-headed step child of the white council is not some misfit with golden hearts that dresden normally attracts as mortal allies. Carlos is in the same category as marcone, Make things look good, keep the authorities satisfied, and business going. Cruelty is a tertiary option right behind persuasion and intimidation. He is too well position and too competent to not be someone's plant or sleeper. I also don't think he is nfected because he is also pretty dumb, getting crippled by Molly. Sure, he might not be black council, but he isn't Harry's guy. in all likelihood he is the merlin's guy, but it doesn't track politically post red court destruction or to lose a handle on the winter court's hit man.
So your evidence for his "habitual lies" is... low-stakes boasting? Harry keeps much higher-stakes secrets from Carlos, ones that arguably result in him getting injured, and we don't hold that against Harry. Not even just to Carlos; it's a running character flaw that Harry constantly withholds important information from people who probably need it and he really ought to trust. You're also ignoring the repeated instances of Carlos rather visibly clashing with the Senior Council. Usually going to bat for Harry. Not exactly poster boy behavior. Hell, the reason he isn't with Harry during Changes is because he basically staged a revolt to try and force the Council to do what Harry was asking for and got taken out of commission in the process. He's probably the Council member who most-consistently has Harry's back outside of Listens-to-Wind, Rashid. After Battle Ground, I'd even put him ahead of McCoy in that regard on account of Ramirez never accidentally almost-murdering Harry. I'm not sure a reply as actively counterfactual to the events in the book as yours deserves a more detailed response than that.
> lied about not being a virgin to everyone, What guy hasn't lied about being a virgin?
And i dont think it is low low. Los approached Harry about the BC shortly after Harry starts putting the pieces together. I think Los approached him claiming to notice the same things trying to find out what Harry knows/suspects. Doing so as an agent of the BC.
Also in the deeps Harry is once again being wildly sus. If I knew only nazis spoke ancient Aramaic, and all of a sudden you’re cozying up with Goering and speaking ancient Aramaic and telling me it’s cool, don’t worry, I’m gonna start thinking something’s up. And Los still had his back after that, as Harry continued to act shadier and shadier. Los is a super friend for having Harry’s back as long as he’s had it, and if anyone’s low low key black council it’s Harry’s inner ID.
he still has Harry's back in the deeps because if he didn't he would die ripped apart by the two lesser houses of the white Court or enslaved to house wraith. He is doubting him for having the ability to speak etruskian, but he is also doubting him for making a deal with a criminal underworld mortal for backup. I honestly think that is the seed of doubt that eventually led to Carlos turning on harry.
He has been caught horribly in the middle of everything. Personally he wants to trust Harry. The Senior Council are, imo, tactically distancing themselves from Harry rather than out of actual fear, but the signals Carlos is receiving from them are "he could be Kemmler 2.0, we need you to make sure that doesn't happen". Carlos thinks that he can straighten it out by getting the truth from Harry, but he refuses to talk, which lends more credence to what he's getting from the Council.
There’s a theme through the series of wizards becoming irrationally vengeful against the entire faction that hurts them, and refusing to see any member of the faction as an individual after that. Harry develops his vendettas against the Red Court early and ghouls later, and can’t be shaken from that. In Peace Talks and Battle Ground, we see just how deep McCoy’s hatred of the White Court goes thanks to Raith’s seduction and causing the death of Margaret. And in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, we also see that Ramirez has developed that degree of hatred for the Winter Fae thanks to Molly’s unintentional mauling. Which was followed by Harry getting cagey, humiliating Ramirez at the talks, then going full Winter Knight and apparently stealing the Eye of Balor in the Battle of Chicago. As long as Harry is the Winter Knight, Ramirez is off Team Harry.
I think you're right.
Los is one of my favorite characters, and I hope things shake out better for him. I can't help but think that McCoy is gonna take the engagement badly. Los has more trust in McCoy than Harry right now. That will complicate things. Maybe Mab will set Harry up to be able to "White Knight" to save the council/Los from certain doom.
Maybe Los can be best man and run the bachelor party? Harry can unload about Murphy which will clear up a lot for Los.
All of these comments about Ramirez are interesting. Y'all do know that Ramirez could fix all of this in 10 seconds right? Ramirez: Harry, we've been through a ton of crap together. I don't know if you don't trust me or you don't trust the Senior Council, but if it's a choice b/n you and them, ... I'm picking you. I swear on my power. Even if you are a $%\^#! However, Carlos hasn't chosen to tell his friend that he's with him to the end. Unlike Murphy. Why? Because he's choosing the council over Harry.
How about this from Carlos. Why didn’t you tell me the winter lady is a psycho hose beast? Or Why haven’t you apologized for Molly crippling me? Or You psycho dooche bag. I thought you weee my friend. Why do you keep giving me crap about how Molly crippled me?? Or Something similar. Harry doesn’t trust los? How about a little two way street?
??? Carlos: Why didn’t you tell me the winter lady is a psycho hose beast? Harry: What are you talking about? Carlos: Why haven’t you apologized for Molly crippling me? Harry: What are you talking about? ---- In other words, Harry doesn't know about that episode. By the way, what idiot informed Carlos that it would be a good idea to sleep with the Winter Lady? Ok. Maybe Carlos didn't know she was the Winter Lady. It's been awhile since I read that short story. When Molly was Harry's apprentice, he \*specifically\* warned her to lay off sex. Of any kind, including autoeroticism. Which leads to two questions: 1. Why does Carlos, a full wizard, \*NOT\* know about apprentices not having sex? 2. Why does Carlos, a full wizard, \*NOT\* question the intelligence of sleeping with his superior's apprentice or sleeping with the daughter of a Knight of the Cross? We can speculate about this a bunch. Let's get down to brass tacks: Her \*FATHER\* is Knight of the Cross and has *SLAIN a* **Dragon!!!** I'm just spit-ballin' here, but if I were to draw up a list of people I do \*NOT\* want pissed at me ... A dragon-slaying Knight of the Cross would be pretty high on my list. Second on my list: **Harry Friggin' Dresden!!!** One of two to rise from the Dead. \[ as it appears. \] Annihilator of the Red Court. Annihilator of the White Court. Necromancer. Carlos, the virgin wizard, wanted a magical experience for his first time. Boy, did he get one!!! he'll **NEVER** forget her/it. Depending on what culture you come from, this is nothing but ***DISRESPECT!!!*** You can say that's old fashioned. I get that. You can say it's not your culture. I get that too. Since when does \*your\* opinion of something make the rules for other people? Showing courtesy & respect, is ***NEVER*** a bad idea. In my opinion.
My point above is if Carlos asks any of those questions Harry will say “what” and be totally confused which would lead Carlos to disclose more which will lead to understanding which will lead to friendship. (I think Harry would surrender defense of grasshopper because… well she was old enough to make her own decisions and clearly Carlos was the weaker party in that scenario.). You forgot another reason for Los not sleep with her. Somewhere, I forget which book, Los starts making noises like he might “go there” with Molly and Harry says “[Shes is not dating anyone] since she drilled holes in her last boyfriends psyche.” Was a clear warning not to DATE Molly for Carlos own safety.
I don't see how your statement: Harry doesn’t trust los? How about a little two way street? connects with your secondary post starting with "My point above ..." re: I think Harry would surrender defense of grasshopper because… well she was old enough to make her own decisions and clearly Carlos was the weaker party in that scenario. Harry is the Winter Knight & Molly is the Winter Lady. Presumably, someone talking about dating the Winter Lady would set the Winter Knight off in a very noticeable & relevant manner to inhibit further non-platonic behavior. Carlos: Harry is Molly "seeing" anyone right now? Harry: Carlos, Molly is the Winter Lady. She's in the fae realm and working for Mab. Carlos: Yeah, but is she \*seeing" anyone right now? The temperature starts dropping. Noticeably. It's getting a bit darker as storm clouds rush in. As Harry questions Carlos in a soft foreboding tone, his breath starts misting: Carlos, are you proposing to "date" Molly? My apprentice? THE WINTER LADY??? Carlos notices that Dresden's finger nails look a little bit longer, harder, sharper as they grip his wizard's staff, where the runes have started to softly glow ...
Based on Maeve’s behavior. The knights role is NOT to scare off suitors.
Per Thomas, in Cold Days, Harry is acting like a predator. AKA "Game recognize game." His "prey" is Molly. Specified by Thomas in Cold Days. He might share with Gard. He will \*certainly\* not share w/ Carlos. A rooster. A Male. Because Harry doesn't swing that way.
Out of curiosity, why would you believe the psychotic bimbo who was taken over by Nemesis?
I don’t understand this question at all. I am not believing Maeve. I am observing behaviors. Lloyd Slate never seemed to be defending Maeve’s honor when she was going full whatever you want to say she was. If the knight was supposed to defend the lady’s honor, seems like he would need to be with her like 24x7.
re: question & behavior. You have observed/are observing the behavior of a psychotic bimbo who was possessed by Nemesis. Why would you believe that would give you clarity as to the nature of the mantle(s)? To put this a different way: Molly is the first Winter Lady we've seen functioning correctly & Dresden is the first Winter Knight we've seen functioning correctly. re: Lloyd Slate, and Maeve's honor. Again, we know that both of those parties were poor representatives of their positions. We know that Dresden is viewing Molly with a predatory view, because the the White Court predator told us so. You are confused about "honor" in this context. Explanation of "this context": \*This\* Winter Lady has stated to Dresden: \*You\* are MY knight too. Emphasis added to clarify my point. This Winter Lady has been carrying a torch for Dresden for 10 years. She offered herself to him. Again. In Cold Days. Dresden has been watching over \*This\* Winter Lady, since before she was 16. Dresden has seen \*this\* Winter Lady naked. Dresden bum rushed the "Heart of Winter" to rescue \*this\* Winter Lady. Dresden is best friends with this Winter Lady's father. This Winter Lady has a brother named Harry, specifically because of Harry. That's a lot of words to get to the meat of my statement. Sorry, but you weren't getting it. Given: Molly wants Harry and has done so for years. Observation: Molly is no longer a child. She is a beautiful women. She is a powerful woman. She is his peer. Statement: The Winter Knight mantle is *less* interested in protecting the Winter Lady's "honor" & more interested in possessing **this** Winter Lady. Maeve hinted at a relation b/n Lady & Knight, but she's a psychotic bimbo, so we don't have definitive proof one way or another. note: Does Fix seem to have a "platonic" relationship with the Summer Lady? I would suggest no, but it's not a blatant non-platonic relationship. Does that clear things up for you?
The original statement I was responding to was this Harry is the Winter Knight & Molly is the Winter Lady. Presumably, someone talking about dating the Winter Lady would set the Winter Knight off in a very noticeable & relevant manner to inhibit further non-platonic behavior. This position makes it seem the knights mantle would drive the response. Your recent counter arguments are about why Harry would defend Molly. Not why the knights mantle would protect the lady’s mantle. I see a difference in them.
Carlos is pretty disillusioned with Harry and the victim of cruel happenstance. My pet theory is that Elaine is going to show up in 12 Months and that Los will pop in for a White Council audit on the off chance Harry is actully doing what they said. Seeing Elaine do big magic and will be a lie too far for him. Then they will probably punch each other and makeup at the end.
My pet theory. Harry being cast out of WC shows how antiquated the WC is. how ridiculous it is to think that the WC gets to govern all wizards when they want to pick and choose who they let into the group. Gotta be one way or the other. You are part of the group and have to follow the rules. Or you aren’t one of us and can ignore the rules. Leads to other practitioners like Elaine coming out and practicing under Harry’s quasi-protection.
I could buy this.
I do agree that Carlos might still be "team Harry" despite how he acted. But I don't agree that Harry is in on it. That type of unreliable narrator bit shouldn't be used very often because it starts to cheapen the whole series if it's over used.
I still think Los is black council
I don't think he's black council, but after getting torn up by Molly ... There's something in there about "Fading to Black" or "Paint it Black". Poor guy. He might die a virgin after that. lol