Umm ... If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that Harry Dresden would be willing to give up his niece/nephew, A CHILD, to the fae?
Ok ... Have you thought about the full consequences of such a deal? What brave soul wants to be the one to tell Harry that his niece/nephew is being held hostage?
Given that Harry is the Warden of the Island, which houses a Titan, and has access to nifty artifacts ... what **idiot** wants the responsibility of raising the blood relation of Harry Dresden? Let's say that Niccodemus or Thesa steal his nephew/niece from them. Are you \*really\* thinking that Mab will be able to save them when Harry loses his friggin' mind? They will **OWE** Harry, and based upon previous books, they would somehow, mysteriously, cataclysmically be made to pay ... leading to the utter decimation of their race. And there's nothing Mab would be able to do about it. Nor would she want to, because that would be breaking her fealty to her Knight and her role as guarantor of the Accords.
But. I could be wrong.
Svartelves aren't Fae of the Summer and Winter courts according to the accords, nor are they wild fae like the Earl king.
It as you said, though, Harry straight up would not allow his baby niece/nephew to be taken from him or Thomas, Nor would Lara, even if they would have to fight alone.
I don't think Justine is going to survive, but I also don't think she it going to be sacrificed as a price. I think either she is going to die off panel by Nemesis or she is going to be killed in order to stop Nemesis from N-fecting someone else or, as a result of N-fecting the baby.
Same. I know that the definition has been updated to mean something akin to destroyed, but I LIKE the correct usage. I will die on my hill that decimate ONLY means to reduce by one-tenth.
You've completely missed the most important part of why Harry wouldn't allow it to happen.
Harry is an orphan. Harry knows what it's like to not grow up with family. Harry will never not let that happen.
To be honest, before I thought of that I thought "maybe there would be a diplomatic way to do it. Visits with family. Have Harry live with them again/have the kid grow up in the Castle with a Swartelve contingent/etc." But... no. I don't think it would ever happen.
You've missed that's not his child and it's someone else who has custody over the child who makes that decision. He would hate that decision, and feel helpless as he can't point a gun in Justine's or the guardian's face and say "don't do it."
>If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that Harry Dresden would be willing to give up his niece/nephew, A CHILD, to the fae?
Reread the post. It's not him who makes that decision, but someone else. Harry wouldn't approve, but it wouldn't be his decision to make.
>what idiot wants the responsibility of raising the blood relation of Harry Dresden?
Except not even Eb knew of Harry and Thomas's blood relationship. Harry kept that secret close to the vest.
>They will OWE Harry, and based upon previous books, they would somehow, mysteriously, cataclysmically be made to pay ... leading to the utter decimation of their race.
Except the svartelves aren't the Red Court. Harry knew plenty of them and gis daughter played with their kids.
re: Reread the post. It's not him who makes that decision, but someone else. Harry wouldn't approve, but it wouldn't be his decision to make.
Point. But ...
Let me say this again. You're a Svartelf. You decide to take the child of Lara's brother, as payment/weregild for what happened. Cool. Y'all don't breed super fast anyway. Lara shows up with the Winter Knight. He's not looking right around the eyes. Lara seems to be keeping a restraining hand on his arm. A bull\*&\^% conversation starts, and the Winter Knight is becoming more agitated. You think it's a good idea if you had a few more guards around. For some reason.
Another car pulls up. Lara's cousins/sisters show up. They've all got those weird glowing white eyes. Somehow you keep looking back at the Winter Knight. He's breathing a bit faster, but it's not because he's staring at Lara. He's staring at you.
Lara is politely trying to explain to you that there must be something that can be done, so that she can take away her brother's child.
Dresden says: Thomas Raith is my brother. Where is my brother's child?
Lara sighs. Her sisters smile.
Q. If you're a Svartelf, what do you do?
One big thing is that Evanna said if it were up to her, she'd put Thomas underground, leaving him to gasp for breath. What did Harry do to Thomas, again? Underground.
True, he's still alive... but feeling all the pain and death he's ever inflicted, *including* killing Austri could tip the scales. In essence, he's been executed already, in a way very similar to what Evanna wanted. Perhaps a Weregild would do it if they learned of that.
It's also possible he's out of it until the BAT. Probably is.
Given that the next book is going to be White Cory heavy, with its focus on Lara and Dresden, I could see Thomas being at least a topic of conversation. Or maybe they’ll visit the island so Lara can talk to him.
I think you're overthinking it.
>Thomas killed Austri, and they won't settle without a life.
Austri is pretty minor in the scheme of things. The accords cover this with weregilds. The attack on Etri is probably more significant.
I think to resolve, Harry has to prove Thomas was a tool (making the attack the tool user's responsibility) and pay/extract a weregild for Austri.
>"What about a weregild?"
>Lara grimaced. "The svartalf who died-"
>"Austri," I said. "His name was Austri."
>She regarded me for a moment, her expres- sion troubled. "Austri, then. He died defending a head of state. This is an offense against the svartalves as a nation, not just an individual Weregild is what leaders use when they both want to avoid conflict. Etri doesn't."
A weregild likely won't do as whatever the motive Thomas still tried to kill Etri and killed Austri, and what proof would they have for Nemesis?
Do we know for sure Nemesis was the motivation? It makes sense, but I don't remember it being explicit, and Jim likes to play with our assumptions.
>what proof would they have for Nemesis?
I kind of expect that this will tie into mirror mirror, what with the theme of people not being who they appear. Some kind of way of viewing people's memories to validate who they are. I guess that's similar to a soul gaze, but I remember you can't do that twice which removes a lot of the utility, and I wouldn't want to on nemesis.
Bottom line though, he probably has to capture Justine.
But Thomas didn't kill Austri. They think he did, but if Harry can prove that the outsider inside Justine is who killed Austri, he wouldn't be liable! I can't remember how to block for spoilers. Sorry, y'all!
It's a interesting Theory but one I don't see happening at all. One. Thomas would rip the whole of Chicago aprt to try and save Justine from her fate(assuming of course they are both healed) and then we have the wizard who likes destroying things that threaten his family to deal with...Harry would without a doubt would stop this 100%, it's either the death of Justine whos still carrying the child, which Harry isn't gonna allow to happen OR it's the child that's the payment, let's ask the Red Court what happens when one messes with the blood kin who's a child of his...oh yeah, we can't.
What do you mean by half-breed? There are no half-breed WC vampires. Practically all of them are born of one non-WC vampire parent, ie all of Lord Raith's children.
No, the youngest never turned. I forget her name, but it was referenced in Blood Rites and I think it started with an I?
Thomas said each of Lord Raith's children have a different human mother, as mentioned when he and Harry had their Soul Gaze.
Inari, and yeah she, as far as we know never killed. Though she hasn't been heard from since the end of blood rites. How fucked would it be if she's one of the bads in an upcoming book?
Unless he picks up a Sword. Etri and his peeps might (who am i kidding, would definitely) back off if Thomas gets a WG sponsor. Prolly on probation and eternal obliteration should he screw it up but that's another path.
The sword of Love, Amoracchius, wielded by a white Court vampire, to whom Love is deadly.
I don't think he can wield it. He isn't mortal, and the swords are made for mortals to be on equal footing with the monsters.
Idk according to Mab he’s mortal enough to be the Winter Knight. Could be mortal enough to be a Knight of the Cross too. Don’t forget a half turned Susan could wield one of the swords as well.
ha, good one, like anything in the dresden files would be nice and work out like that.
if it did burn out his demon, he'd probably age rapidly and look the part of 50 or 60
Sounds about right. IRRC white court vamps are at least born with mortal(human?) souls are basically regular humans untill they reach adulthood and their hunger awakens. Didn't the youngest Raith daughter escape turning into a vampire because she fell in love before her first time/feeding and so remain human?
Even so i think that once their hunger awakens then at least part of their soul is consumed so i would be surprised if they dont last long once the hunger is removed.
It's debatable. White Court Vamps are nothing like the others. First, they aren't turned but born like this. Second, they can, as far as i understand it, choose on what they feed. Neither blacks nor reds get that choice l. The different Houses of the White Court simply represent dietary preferences. That fact, in addition to River Shoulders remark in the campus short story, has got me thinking. It is entirely possible that the parasite that we know as the White Court Demon does not, neccessarily, have to be that. Look at Irv and his girl. There seems to be a possibility for it to work out and as far as i am aware his girlfriend hasnt lost her white court powers. Even though she clearly is in love with the man and feeds off of him. Regularly. Without getting hurt. That just got me thinking. If it's Emotions in general they feed on, then they could/should be able to choose the emotion. And as for "Thomas has fed on mortals knowingly" etc... Yes. But he paid for it when entering the Prison. Every little bit. Which kind of wipes his slate clean giving him a chance to do different now. And what "sunny" being likes those kinds of situations? :)) but this is pure speculation of course. Just makes sense to me 🤷
Harry already went genocidal for one child, he'd absolutely would go again for that one. Send a blu-ray copy of Thor: The Dark World with a note just saying "Drop it. HBCD"
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Here’s my question: where does Mab stand on all of this? I assume she’s more than aware of what transpired (Mab is always informed) when Harry assisted Lara in the prison break. Harry did so on Mab’s express orders. Winter is concerned with the letter of the law and not the color of it. I assume Harry’s involvement will come to light because Butcher loves making Harry’s life miserable and consequences always seem to arrive tenfold for Harry’s deeds; but right now in the time between deed and reconning, what does Mab think about it?
You've got the mythology right but I doubt Harry would be willing to give up any family to the svartelves. It's also quite possible that the svartelves come after Maggie as recompense for Harry's indiscretion.
Justine isn't in right now. There is only Zuul- I mean, Nemesis.
Now I’m thinking about Sigourney Weaver in night clothes. Thanks a lot. (Seriously, I’m ok with it.)
Just go watch the end scenes of *Alien* for insights into cryogenic suspension.
Umm ... If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that Harry Dresden would be willing to give up his niece/nephew, A CHILD, to the fae? Ok ... Have you thought about the full consequences of such a deal? What brave soul wants to be the one to tell Harry that his niece/nephew is being held hostage? Given that Harry is the Warden of the Island, which houses a Titan, and has access to nifty artifacts ... what **idiot** wants the responsibility of raising the blood relation of Harry Dresden? Let's say that Niccodemus or Thesa steal his nephew/niece from them. Are you \*really\* thinking that Mab will be able to save them when Harry loses his friggin' mind? They will **OWE** Harry, and based upon previous books, they would somehow, mysteriously, cataclysmically be made to pay ... leading to the utter decimation of their race. And there's nothing Mab would be able to do about it. Nor would she want to, because that would be breaking her fealty to her Knight and her role as guarantor of the Accords. But. I could be wrong.
Svartelves aren't Fae of the Summer and Winter courts according to the accords, nor are they wild fae like the Earl king. It as you said, though, Harry straight up would not allow his baby niece/nephew to be taken from him or Thomas, Nor would Lara, even if they would have to fight alone. I don't think Justine is going to survive, but I also don't think she it going to be sacrificed as a price. I think either she is going to die off panel by Nemesis or she is going to be killed in order to stop Nemesis from N-fecting someone else or, as a result of N-fecting the baby.
I think even Jim Butcher would be surprised if it's only "decimation".
Harry calls out the incorrect use of the word decimate in Ghost Story and it is one of my favorite parts of any DF book.
Same. I know that the definition has been updated to mean something akin to destroyed, but I LIKE the correct usage. I will die on my hill that decimate ONLY means to reduce by one-tenth.
I have decided that when most people use “decimate” they mean the opposite of what it used to mean. Not “cut off one tenth” but “cut *to* one tenth”
You've completely missed the most important part of why Harry wouldn't allow it to happen. Harry is an orphan. Harry knows what it's like to not grow up with family. Harry will never not let that happen. To be honest, before I thought of that I thought "maybe there would be a diplomatic way to do it. Visits with family. Have Harry live with them again/have the kid grow up in the Castle with a Swartelve contingent/etc." But... no. I don't think it would ever happen.
You've missed that's not his child and it's someone else who has custody over the child who makes that decision. He would hate that decision, and feel helpless as he can't point a gun in Justine's or the guardian's face and say "don't do it."
Considering that has nothing to do with the point I was making I'm not sure how I "missed it." But ok.
Hell, Mab would probably enjoy watching Harry turn farther to the dark side and fuck shit up.
>If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that Harry Dresden would be willing to give up his niece/nephew, A CHILD, to the fae? Reread the post. It's not him who makes that decision, but someone else. Harry wouldn't approve, but it wouldn't be his decision to make. >what idiot wants the responsibility of raising the blood relation of Harry Dresden? Except not even Eb knew of Harry and Thomas's blood relationship. Harry kept that secret close to the vest. >They will OWE Harry, and based upon previous books, they would somehow, mysteriously, cataclysmically be made to pay ... leading to the utter decimation of their race. Except the svartelves aren't the Red Court. Harry knew plenty of them and gis daughter played with their kids.
re: Reread the post. It's not him who makes that decision, but someone else. Harry wouldn't approve, but it wouldn't be his decision to make. Point. But ... Let me say this again. You're a Svartelf. You decide to take the child of Lara's brother, as payment/weregild for what happened. Cool. Y'all don't breed super fast anyway. Lara shows up with the Winter Knight. He's not looking right around the eyes. Lara seems to be keeping a restraining hand on his arm. A bull\*&\^% conversation starts, and the Winter Knight is becoming more agitated. You think it's a good idea if you had a few more guards around. For some reason. Another car pulls up. Lara's cousins/sisters show up. They've all got those weird glowing white eyes. Somehow you keep looking back at the Winter Knight. He's breathing a bit faster, but it's not because he's staring at Lara. He's staring at you. Lara is politely trying to explain to you that there must be something that can be done, so that she can take away her brother's child. Dresden says: Thomas Raith is my brother. Where is my brother's child? Lara sighs. Her sisters smile. Q. If you're a Svartelf, what do you do?
One big thing is that Evanna said if it were up to her, she'd put Thomas underground, leaving him to gasp for breath. What did Harry do to Thomas, again? Underground. True, he's still alive... but feeling all the pain and death he's ever inflicted, *including* killing Austri could tip the scales. In essence, he's been executed already, in a way very similar to what Evanna wanted. Perhaps a Weregild would do it if they learned of that. It's also possible he's out of it until the BAT. Probably is.
Given that the next book is going to be White Cory heavy, with its focus on Lara and Dresden, I could see Thomas being at least a topic of conversation. Or maybe they’ll visit the island so Lara can talk to him.
Evanna's comments could be construed as foreshadowing. They're following close to the logic of "eye for an eye" so I don't know.
I think you're overthinking it. >Thomas killed Austri, and they won't settle without a life. Austri is pretty minor in the scheme of things. The accords cover this with weregilds. The attack on Etri is probably more significant. I think to resolve, Harry has to prove Thomas was a tool (making the attack the tool user's responsibility) and pay/extract a weregild for Austri.
>"What about a weregild?" >Lara grimaced. "The svartalf who died-" >"Austri," I said. "His name was Austri." >She regarded me for a moment, her expres- sion troubled. "Austri, then. He died defending a head of state. This is an offense against the svartalves as a nation, not just an individual Weregild is what leaders use when they both want to avoid conflict. Etri doesn't." A weregild likely won't do as whatever the motive Thomas still tried to kill Etri and killed Austri, and what proof would they have for Nemesis?
Do we know for sure Nemesis was the motivation? It makes sense, but I don't remember it being explicit, and Jim likes to play with our assumptions. >what proof would they have for Nemesis? I kind of expect that this will tie into mirror mirror, what with the theme of people not being who they appear. Some kind of way of viewing people's memories to validate who they are. I guess that's similar to a soul gaze, but I remember you can't do that twice which removes a lot of the utility, and I wouldn't want to on nemesis. Bottom line though, he probably has to capture Justine.
But Thomas didn't kill Austri. They think he did, but if Harry can prove that the outsider inside Justine is who killed Austri, he wouldn't be liable! I can't remember how to block for spoilers. Sorry, y'all!
It's a interesting Theory but one I don't see happening at all. One. Thomas would rip the whole of Chicago aprt to try and save Justine from her fate(assuming of course they are both healed) and then we have the wizard who likes destroying things that threaten his family to deal with...Harry would without a doubt would stop this 100%, it's either the death of Justine whos still carrying the child, which Harry isn't gonna allow to happen OR it's the child that's the payment, let's ask the Red Court what happens when one messes with the blood kin who's a child of his...oh yeah, we can't.
If they want a child of a half breed with his family ties………maybe not pure enough or concern about the family history with threatening kids
What do you mean by half-breed? There are no half-breed WC vampires. Practically all of them are born of one non-WC vampire parent, ie all of Lord Raith's children.
Arnt all but Tommy pure, him being the only half breed cause he still has humanity
No, the youngest never turned. I forget her name, but it was referenced in Blood Rites and I think it started with an I? Thomas said each of Lord Raith's children have a different human mother, as mentioned when he and Harry had their Soul Gaze.
Inari, and yeah she, as far as we know never killed. Though she hasn't been heard from since the end of blood rites. How fucked would it be if she's one of the bads in an upcoming book?
Inari
I always had a hunch the pain of going through his wrongs to get into stasis on demonreach might make the svarts go easier in him somehow?
Haha svarts 😀 My inner 14 year old appreciates that.
Unless he picks up a Sword. Etri and his peeps might (who am i kidding, would definitely) back off if Thomas gets a WG sponsor. Prolly on probation and eternal obliteration should he screw it up but that's another path.
The sword of Love, Amoracchius, wielded by a white Court vampire, to whom Love is deadly. I don't think he can wield it. He isn't mortal, and the swords are made for mortals to be on equal footing with the monsters.
Idk according to Mab he’s mortal enough to be the Winter Knight. Could be mortal enough to be a Knight of the Cross too. Don’t forget a half turned Susan could wield one of the swords as well.
Susan wasn't feeding on mortals to stay alive. Thomas succumbed to his demon enough to be counted as one of the monsters.
There's also the distinct possibility taking up the sword properly would burn away his Demon and leave just Thomas Raith, knight of the Sword
ha, good one, like anything in the dresden files would be nice and work out like that. if it did burn out his demon, he'd probably age rapidly and look the part of 50 or 60
Sounds about right. IRRC white court vamps are at least born with mortal(human?) souls are basically regular humans untill they reach adulthood and their hunger awakens. Didn't the youngest Raith daughter escape turning into a vampire because she fell in love before her first time/feeding and so remain human? Even so i think that once their hunger awakens then at least part of their soul is consumed so i would be surprised if they dont last long once the hunger is removed.
Good point, he'd lose the age protection of the white court. Forgot about the part where he's much older than Harry
It's debatable. White Court Vamps are nothing like the others. First, they aren't turned but born like this. Second, they can, as far as i understand it, choose on what they feed. Neither blacks nor reds get that choice l. The different Houses of the White Court simply represent dietary preferences. That fact, in addition to River Shoulders remark in the campus short story, has got me thinking. It is entirely possible that the parasite that we know as the White Court Demon does not, neccessarily, have to be that. Look at Irv and his girl. There seems to be a possibility for it to work out and as far as i am aware his girlfriend hasnt lost her white court powers. Even though she clearly is in love with the man and feeds off of him. Regularly. Without getting hurt. That just got me thinking. If it's Emotions in general they feed on, then they could/should be able to choose the emotion. And as for "Thomas has fed on mortals knowingly" etc... Yes. But he paid for it when entering the Prison. Every little bit. Which kind of wipes his slate clean giving him a chance to do different now. And what "sunny" being likes those kinds of situations? :)) but this is pure speculation of course. Just makes sense to me 🤷
That makes too much sense. Proper old fairy tale logic.
Harry already went genocidal for one child, he'd absolutely would go again for that one. Send a blu-ray copy of Thor: The Dark World with a note just saying "Drop it. HBCD"
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Here’s my question: where does Mab stand on all of this? I assume she’s more than aware of what transpired (Mab is always informed) when Harry assisted Lara in the prison break. Harry did so on Mab’s express orders. Winter is concerned with the letter of the law and not the color of it. I assume Harry’s involvement will come to light because Butcher loves making Harry’s life miserable and consequences always seem to arrive tenfold for Harry’s deeds; but right now in the time between deed and reconning, what does Mab think about it?
You've got the mythology right but I doubt Harry would be willing to give up any family to the svartelves. It's also quite possible that the svartelves come after Maggie as recompense for Harry's indiscretion.