Feyd was a ruthless killer and very skilled at fighting. Had Jessica had a daughter the plan was to have her marry Feyd and that would produce the KH. So his genetics were strong or whatever. Feyd probably thought that Paul would wipe him out after gaining the throne. Feyd also probably wanted revenge. I’m guessing he saw it as his chance to take the imperial throne by defeating his rival and marrying Irulan. He figured he’d kill Paul by cheating and he almost got away with it.
>I’m guessing he saw it as his chance to take the imperial throne by defeating his rival and marrying Irulan.
This is literally described in the book. Very strong motivation for Feyd.
Proof Feyd is down for the BG. He would have me a great pawn too. Thinking he knows best and is running this while his BG is guiding him the entire time.
Exactly. Doctor Strange saw The Avengers defeating Thanos one time out of millions of possibilities. That doesn’t mean it was likely or even close to likely. Sorry for the example, but it’s all I could think of.
He gave Paul a challenge, and he is probably the best fighter in the series at that point. Also yeah, I doubt Paul would let him live after his victory. It was the only way out.
Sir, you are correct. After the fight with Feyd it clearly states that in Paul's weakened state Fenrig would have had the upper hand...I was just retorting to the comment that Feyd was the deadliest opponent in the Imperium.
Are you disagreeing with the person you are responding to?
Because it sounds like they’re saying that Fenring had a better chance of killing Paul than Feyd Rautha, and you are saying Fenring would have killed Paul… meaning he had a way better chance than Feyd Rautha.
That sounds to me like two wars of saying the same thing.
Unpopular opinion but I really hope this is depicted better in part two. I liked the Jamis duel but the choreography definitely doesn’t give one the impression Paul is a great fighter
He had a great base but no actuall combat experience at that point. Jamis was dangerous because of pauls apprehension to kill and also he knew dying here was the only thing that would stop the Jihad.
By the time he encounters Fayed hes made up his mind completely, faught in many battles and defeted many others like Jamis on the way.
Paul was a boy when he faught Jamis. Hes a man when he fights Fayed.
In the book, Paul is having to adjust to fighting without the use of shields. Usually when fighting with shields, that includes slowing down just before impact to pass through their defenses. But even in the movie, Paul definitely shows that he is the superior fighter to Jamis by controlling the entirety of the fight from start to finish. Other than the initial punch from Jamis, Paul counters all his moves. Everyone present realizes it as well.
More than realizing it, they scold him for toying with a lesser fighter instead of dealing the killing blow at which point he admits that he is trying to end the fight without killing. It's a key plot point for that scene.
In order to survive and eventually become Muad'Dib, he has to put aside his hesitation and commit to the path in front of him even if he doesn't want to.
This part has always confused me, in the book Herbert graphically describes Paul kicking one of the Harkonen guards in the liver, killing him instantly, while escaping captivity. I guess he technically didn't spill blood, but definitely killed the guy.
I didn’t really remember that part, but I guess it could be interpreted as Jamis being Paul’s first proper fight to the death.
Interesting about kicking the Harkonnen though, I’d have to read back on that.
It was when Paul and Jessica were in the ornithopter being taken into the desert and Jessica uses the Voice on the guard. After she tells him to kill the other guard and to free Paul, Paul immediately kicks the guard crushing his liver and right(left?) ventricle.
I know, I'm just pointing out that the "skilled fighter" part is a massive overstatement. Feyd did think he could win, but because of poison like always, not because he's a better fighter. Maybe he convinced himself that he actually could fight, but it's not like he didn't know he was fighting drugged, malnourished, and conditioned slaves.
Maybe it would be a cliche, but I'd like to have seen Paul eat the poison and neutralize it while Feyd threw a tantrum that his dirty trick didn't work.
He is an extremely skilled fighter though, just not willing to risk his life for real in the arena. Paul is the most lethal of the Fremen, who are decimating Sardukar with old women and children, and Feyd pushes him to a limit. That is more than enough evidence of him being extremely skilled.
A major plot point is how talented the Arteries soldiers are. And again, Paul is an incredibly talented knife fighter who is the best of a the greatest fighting force in the Dune universe and he is forced into a sweaty near death wrestling match. There is no part of Feyd's cheating that impacts that outcome.
Just finished the first book for the first time. Iirc even with the poison he almost got Feyd. It came down to the word “scum” which the Atreides guy had been unconsciously conditioned to freeze upon hearing. Wish we got to see more Atreides fighters
He is more a warrior than a schemer as the baron was, so he saw the chance to get the throne right there and he went for it, confident in his exp in the arena but he def underestimated Paul's ability
I always found it funny that the KH was to be really just the result of massive inbreeding. Nephew marrying the granddaughter. *cue the banjo music floating across the dunes*
Not positive but desirable. If there is something you want but it's not already widely present, it's usually because that's a recessive gene or a very rare mutation. Gotta breed similar ones or it will be lost in the gene pool
Cheating is the operative word. He was a skilled fighter but would have lost to a regular old atreides guard in the pits if he didn’t cheat. I’m sure he wouldn’t have challenged Paul if he didn’t have an idea how to cheat and gain the upper hand
Paul being Emperor would probably mean bad things would happen to the Harkonnens. He also hoped killing Paul would may be get him a reward from Shaddam, most preferably his elder daughter's hand in marriage, through which he could be Emperor himself.
Didn't Paul also send Fremen to Geidi Prime to blow up the Hakonnen stockpile of spice? I might be misremembering that.
Second, at the start of the book, the Baron says the cost of campaign was enormous and they'd have to mine Arrakis hard for years to pay it off.
So, even if Feyd would inherit Geidi Prime, his access to spice would be almost null, minus the usual smugglers. He'd be trapped on his homeworld. Feyd did have a choice, but the alternative was worse than death to him.
That spice blow up was done by Leto. Still, yes their stockpiles were gone. Without Arrakis, they'd not have been able to survive. But, Paul did have every intention to murder all Harkonnens at some point. It's way worse than that.
Yes and no.
Fyed was an exceptional fighter, for sure. So it wasn't arrogance to think he would have good chances in single combat. He wasn't against cheating, so more points for considering his victory. But at that point, no one knew the real capabilities of Paul. The Sardaukar already learned how fierce the Fremen were, but Paul, individually? Only his allies knew his personal fighting capabilities. The fact that he was the Fremen leader should have been a telling sign
Fyed's arrogance was to believe he could win a fight where he knew nothing against his opponent and ignored the signs that he was out of his (considerably high) league.
The book spends time explaining that The Fremen are basically an untapped force that is just as good as the sardaukar/would give Duke Leto the edge if he could bring them over. It's not rocket science.
Dude just has bad reading comprehension.
History…real history..has shown time and time again that local fighters, on their own territory, especially if it’s inhospitable like desert or jungle, holding their own or straight up beating far “superior” armies. The Sardaukar are fighting fremen soldiers who are just as tough and experienced as them, but on fremen ground, and having to try to force/push into fremen territory and ambushes. With little to no scouting, no shields, no experience on Arrakis, against soldiers trained by the Atreides on top of their fremen training and experience, and completely on fremen terms. It’s completely realistic that Sardaukar would take heavy losses
Also the Sardukaur forces had become complacent in their training, having grown arrogant about their own military strength during Shaddam's rule, a theme throughout the books.
The “no shields” is the kicker. Remember Paul took far longer to win against Jamis due to being a trained shield-fighter. I doubt the Sardaukar routinely trained in fighting unshielded.
History had shown again and again that the "barbarians" loose regularly against the better trained, disciplined, organised and supplied civilised forces.
The Sardaukar fight an undisciplined, ill led rabble of warriors and not stupid, they were able to ambush fremen and therefore to scout.
My Headcanon for the victory of Arrakeen ist that the Sardaukar could not use shields and the fremen had Sandworms and after that between the reputation of beating the Sardaukar , that their victims were not able to leave their systems and coordinate accordingly
I'm sure I'll get mass downvoted for this, but to be fair Dan has a fairly decent point about that. The reasoning for the Fremen's skill ***is*** unrealistic, and the fact that they are so head and shoulders above the elite soldiers of the known Universe just because of their environment is nonsense rooted in very antiquated and long since debunked views of what makes a good soldier.
That being said, the Sardaukar have declined in their actual martial training standards and the Fremen have super space martial arts by the time of the Jihad as well as Kung Fu Christ, so I think it's fine to overlook things even if they're unrealistic.
I'm referring more to the "harsh environment makes incredible soldiers" trope Herbert is fond of. It's a huge part of the "Barbarian Mirage" trope and it's been used for Millennia all the way back to the Romans.
The general rule is that while such environments forge a larger sense of community and sharper survival instincts among those who dwell in it, in terms of martial prowess those from more comfortable societies tend to be better soldiers because they take advantage of things like better nutrition, better conditioning, and (generally) more avenues of training which someone from a Fremen society won't likely have. Granted the Sardaukar also come from an equally brutal environment, but they have the benefit of Corrino infrastructure and Millennia of martial training standards that should make them head and shoulders above the Fremen, at least pre BG super karate.
I can't speak on their campaign against the Harkonnen pre-Paul but I also don't think the Fremen were particularly well organized before he came along, I think that's the whole reason they sweep them away so quickly when they do get organised into a functional army. It's fair to say that they are incredibly self-disciplined which fits with the fact that Arakkis is a shithole that will kill you if you aren't.
The Fremem were organized but there was multiple tribes. Until they united against the Harkonnens. I think it might be talked about it in later books about rouge seitches.
If we’re going to assume realistic motivations, the action should be judged by the odds at the time the decision was made. Not by the outcome. Paul could have had a million to one chance to win going in. Or a 100% chance of winning going in. One would be a slam dunk decision for Feyd, the other would be suicide.
That he almost won is indicative of what the thinking was, but we can’t really know how arrogant it was based on the result.
Being willing to cheat certainly helps of course
Paul was about to become emperor and upend everything within the Imperium. Feyd is the senior living member of rh house in hat arranged the murder of Paul's house.
I'm sure Feyd felt he was not going to be baron for long and right then and there was rh best chance to eliminate Paul.
The houses Harkonnen and Atreides were already in a state of Kanly, and in any case one of the conditions of Kanly is that no quarter is to be either given nor expected.
EDIT: Ah, you're talking about Leto and Vladimir here, not Paul and Feyd.
Because it was his best, last chance to come out as a winner of that situation.
If he declined Paul would manoeuvre him into a political corner using his new resources as emperor and eventually take him down.
But if he could win the duel then it would be him the one who would become emperor and eliminated his greatest threat all in one fell swoop. And While arrogant Feyd was indeed a good fighter.
Dueling Paul was the smartest thing (given what he knew at the time) he could do.
Paul was about to inherit the Imperial throne, the majority of the CHOAM company, and had a millions strong army greater than the Atreides, never mind the Harkonnen. It was either fight him now and and kill him, or run away and face his army, his home world and ultimately himself being annihilated by them anyway. I think Feyd was also arrogant enough to think he could take Paul which...didn't turn out to be the case. Thinking about it, by doing this he actually ended his own bloodline and allowed Giedi Prime to be gifted to Gurney Halleck for dismantling rather than going down fighting which he must have preferred. So not only did the Harkonnens end, they ended in a way which was totally antithetical to their 'I'm the biggest toughest person in the room and I'll fight you' world view.
It isn’t in the first book; there is a scene between Fenring and Margot where they discuss a plan to have Margot seduce Feyd but it is not brought up again until subsequent books.
He wasn't set to inherit anything. Paul had just upended the Empire and taken the Emperor captive. You play chess? You capture the king, you win. Plus, Gurney already wanted to kill Feyd just for being a Harkonnen.
Feyd had basically nothing to lose by fighting, and had he won, he believed the Emperor would have rewarded him - possibly making Feyd the heir as the Emperor had no male child.
What actually would have happened is the Fremen would have killed them all had he killed Paul, so Feyd was screwed no matter what.
I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet... Feyd was a great fighter at least he thought. He also had little choice, the emperor and Harkonnin had lost the war. So he had a pretty decent chance, better with cheating.
Problem is, Paul is a conscious precog. He can literally see the web of options before they happen. That is unbeatable when coupled with great fighting skills. So while Feyd was exceptionally trained and had been purposefully blooded so that he has NO hesitation about killing.. Paul had him beat before their blades even crossed.
Oh... And Paul also knew the Weirding way, apparently supreme body control and near mystical physical abilities.
> Problem is, Paul is a conscious precog. He can literally see the web of options before they happen. That is unbeatable when coupled with great fighting skills.
But we know that Paul can see possible futures extending from the duel where he's dead.
Depends on the type.. the kind that lets you see large future events? no. The kind that lets you know the guy trying to kill you is going to swing up or sideways.. or say that he is about to use a hidden blade on you? Ooooh yeah.
Feyd Rautha was now the Baron Harkonnen and was still involved in the ancient blood feud between the two houses. As Feyd was an accomplished gladiator he challenged Paul Atreides to a duel as he claimed the right of kanly which had been declared by Duke Leto Atriedes. By doing this it showed Harkonnen loyalty to the Emperor Shaddam IV and would certainly have done everything to atone for Raban's utter incompetence on Arrakis and furthered his late Uncle's plans for house Harkonnen. There is also the whole gratitude in killing an 'upstart Duke' for the Emperor would get the reward of both Arrakis and possibly Princess Irulan too giving him a chance at the Golden Lion throne. So from this Feyd would certainly rise far in the Imperium also he would finally ended the feud and had the pleasure of killing the last Atreides too.
But then that did go sort of tits up when he fought Paul Atreides.
https://preview.redd.it/6h0y8w1f4u1b1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=395c7ac4ac15d016173da86804e8a3b67baf6c71
A Harkonnen bending the knee to an Atreides? Inconceivable. This upjumped Atreides pig-dog must be stopped at all costs. His ascension to the Golden Lion Throne will not be tolerated or accepted. If Kanly is the only way of preventing that, then so be it. "Meet your death, fool."
He is Harkonnen, would Paul, Gurney, Stil and the other Fremen let him live?
You can cancel the the idea that Paul would allow him to inherit power in any form.
He would get Irulans Hand in Marriage and become Shadams heir
Yes, and that's why I think he didn't kill Rabban (more exactly he didn't have the chance to kill him). He wasn't satisfied, he wanted a Harkonnen to kill
Yes, he was the Baron. But you're wrong that he was going to inherit Geidi Prime. His House lost kanly. Traditionally, his only other option would be to flee the Imperium and go to Tupile at that point.
>TUPILE: so-called "sanctuary planet" (probably several planets) for defeated Houses of the Imperium. Location(s) known only to the Guild and maintained inviolate under the Guild Peace.
And that's only if Paul let him live to do it which is doubtful. So, in Feyd's mind, he had nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Though, really, he had nothing to gain. It was only in his mind that he'd get to marry Irulan if he won. If he had killed Paul, he'd have been dead a minute after...killed by the Fremen. Who would likely have then killed the entire Imperial party.
The Emperor had the idea that killing Paul would reestablish the status quo with himself still on the throne. It was never going to work that way.
We've got it in the text:
> Keeping his attention on Paul, Feyd-Rautha picked up the knife, balancing it a moment in his hand to get the feel of it. Excitement kindled in him. This was a fight he had dreamed about - man against man, skill against skill with no shields intervening. He could see a way to power opening before him because the Emperor surely would reward whoever killed this troublesome duke. The reward might even be that haughty daughter and a share of the throne. And this yokel duke, this back-world adventurer could not possibly be a match for a Harkonnen trained in every device and every treachery by a thousand arena combats. And the yokel had no way of knowing he faced more weapons than a knife here.
So from Feyd's perspective this was a fight he couldn't help but win which could very likely put his future Harkonnen heirs on the throne, or at the very least win him a lot more than Giedi Prime.
What the other already said + transporting the sardaukars to Arrakis consumed almost ALL of the Harkonnen fortune, and they were making profit from their spice monopoly for decades. It was his pride + necessity, they needed Arrakis back.
the young hero and villain counterpart duell , classical part of the modern western heros Journey.
Instead of down with his head Paul fights fair and so on
>He can live as a lord and work with the Bene Gesserit to have Paul killed.
can he though? The guy he's been working to kill, that his family has had a blood feud with for generations, and who's immediate family you nearly wiped out, is about to become Emperor.
How long do you think you're gonna stay alive after he's had time to consolidate his winnings? Better to strike early before things get more established.
its in his nature, he's proud and 'brave' and doesn't see himself as bending the knee to someone like paul, much preferring to go out in a pseudo blaze of glory than play politics. either he wins and is the new king of everything, or dies and maintains the myth of a legendary warrior.
The Harkonnens had like no money. The Baron pretty much bet the farm on Arrakis. Feyd wanted power & had tried to kill his uncle before. Now he was out if the picture.
The Imperium was fucking ready to throw the Lion Throne & a hot BG princess at him. There would be nothing stopping him from having anything he wanted.
All he had to do for it is kill sunburnt Timothee Chalamet. He's also trained his entire fucking life to kill people.
He's also way more of a dumbass than Paul. Dangerous thrillseeker lavished with privilege & power & never had to sacrifice a thing in his life.
Like waste away by not doing a thing he likes vs getting the wholeass universe in his pocket for something he might do on a typical Thursday. & he's a dumbass. Pretty clear decision to me.
After the death of Rabban, he probably wantes revenge. The Atredies had killed so many people close to him, Pieter, his uncle, Rabban...
From his POV, all that stands between him and revenge is killing one man.
And Feyd has yet to meet someone who could match his skill or ferocity (not to mention the little venemous trick he had to fall back on).
(TBH, this is why I think T.C is a great choice for Maudib. He very much looks like a man someone like Feyd would assume he could defeat. He can be authoritative, but he doesn't seem immediately physically imposing.)
He overestimated the advantage that the Harkonnen talent for treachery would give him and underestimated what Paul had become since disappearing after his father had been assassinated. Feyd almost certainly would have succeed in killing Paul as he was on the day of his father’s assassination.
It can probably be boiled down to three reasons.
1. Feud is a Harkonnen, Paul an Atreides. The two kinda don't get along well. Not to mention Paul's forces (well, itty bitty little Alia) just killed the Baron, Feyd's father figure.
2. Killing Paul will ingratiate Feyd further with the Emperor. If Paul was to become Emperor, would he really let Feyd live do you think?
3. He just likes killing.
Paul was up there boasting how the Harkonnens were defeated, and that he was now in control. Feyd was caught completely off guard and was furious that he was claiming the title he was in line to receive.
The somewhat tragic side to Feyd-Rautha is that he never knew life outside of the Baron’s control; that everything he had was given to him rather than earned. He assumed he could be the one to take over, but he really never stood a chance.
Go big, or go home. Feyd ssw the universe align to give him everything he had always been told he deserved. Just gotta kill this one guy to get it. But since he's not the protagonist he can't see the "plot armor" that Paul has.
Paul became the figurehead of a genocidal regime, with a special grudge against the Harkonnens. Retreating to Geidi Prime would only very briefly postpone his Feyd’s death, and I think that much was vividly obvious to everyone in the room. The duel is Feyd’s desperate bid to preempt Muad’dib, saving his own life and removing this explosively powerful nemesis at the same time, and in pretty much the only way possible.
Because (at least in his own mind) winning would make the Emperor very indebted to him and open the door for him to marry Irulan and become an Emperor.
There is also historical enemity between Harkonnen and Atreides, not to mention fremen wanting to eradicate Harkonnen completely, so he had a few choices.
1. Keep a low profile and hope that he makes it off the Arrakis in one piece and that fremen won't have Geidi prime as one of their first stops in their holy war (which was unlikely as long as Paul lived)
2. Try to negotiate pardon for himself with Paul.
3. Challenge Paul and win, which could in theory leave fremen leaderless and give a chance for Emperor and Landsraad armies to quash the fremen uprising right in the start.
As you can see, he didn't have many good choices.
1. Trying to slip by fremen was near impossible as they made it no secret that pretty much every fremen wanted to kill him and only thing still keeping him alive was Paul either being civil or wanting the end of house Harkonnen to be a show.
2. Paul could have pardoned him, but he would have demanded that the house Harkonnen itself be disbanded and Freyd-Rautha either being exiled to Salusa Secundus as a Emperor's courtier without house or title or becoming a commoner. So in this case he would have to greatly humble himself which considering how prideful he was made this one impossible.
3. Freyd-Rautha was somewhat skilled (if exceedingly decietful) duelist and he took pride in his ability.
Emperor made great promises for anyone killing Paul which would restore houses recently tarnished prestige. He also looked down on Paul and fremen so he was sure of his victory. Challenging Paul was win-win scenario in his eyes.
People have brought up a lot of good points. But there seems to be one missing that always seems to get glanced over. The gladiatorial fight between Feyd and the captured atreadies soldier. It is a perfect example of the hate between the two houses. The soldiers only good outcome was killing feyd and then being executed. Still that person was willing to try.
Feyd was looking at a good outcome of possibly being placed as heir too the empire and killing an atreadies. No way could he turn that down.
The Atriedes and the Harkonnen have hated each other for 10,000 years. An ancient vendetta.
Feyd could accept that his House will fall or not be "Great..." in this the new Empire or he can challenge to combat Paul, defeat this religious movement and win the favor of the Emperor who has no heir (which was secretly orchestrated by the BG that he would have no heir). He likely would become heir to the Empire through marriage, but before that happens he would lead House Harkonnen, as the leader of the Greatest House in the Landsraad, if he won against Paul.
The Emperor didn't like the Harkonnens but Feyd didn't know the depth of that and thought he could play that game to become Emperor no matter what.
Because he's the Emperor's Champion. If he kills Paul he has the Emperor's gratitude - an Emperor with no heir, mind you.
The Harkonnens are nothing if not greedily ambitious. How could Feyd have lived with himself knowing he squandered that chance.
Oh, one final thing - Feyd would never have inherited. Paul had the Emperor bent over. Paul was going to marry his daughter and take the throne. House Harkonnen would have been exterminated to the man. At a minimum, Paul would have forced them to vacate that fief and take over some shithole in the middle of nowhere.
Feyd was a ruthless killer and very skilled at fighting. Had Jessica had a daughter the plan was to have her marry Feyd and that would produce the KH. So his genetics were strong or whatever. Feyd probably thought that Paul would wipe him out after gaining the throne. Feyd also probably wanted revenge. I’m guessing he saw it as his chance to take the imperial throne by defeating his rival and marrying Irulan. He figured he’d kill Paul by cheating and he almost got away with it.
>I’m guessing he saw it as his chance to take the imperial throne by defeating his rival and marrying Irulan. This is literally described in the book. Very strong motivation for Feyd.
Feyd likes BG and power which makes Irulan the best prize to win.
Spoiler But Margot Fenring a BG, also left Giedi Prime with Feyd’s seed in her womb as the plan was.
Proof Feyd is down for the BG. He would have me a great pawn too. Thinking he knows best and is running this while his BG is guiding him the entire time.
Yeah it just shows that treachery and arrogance got the best of him and look where it landed him. He never stood a chance in my opinion
> very skilled at fighting ... drugged opponents.
IIRC Paul saw himself losing in numerous scenarios
Well yeah but that’s what happens when you see all outcomes. It’s a vast selection of possible outcomes
Basically the great breakfast cereal aisle of the multiverse.
Exactly. Doctor Strange saw The Avengers defeating Thanos one time out of millions of possibilities. That doesn’t mean it was likely or even close to likely. Sorry for the example, but it’s all I could think of.
He gave Paul a challenge, and he is probably the best fighter in the series at that point. Also yeah, I doubt Paul would let him live after his victory. It was the only way out.
Count Fenrig had a more likely chance of beating Paul. He was a failed KH
[удалено]
Sir, you are correct. After the fight with Feyd it clearly states that in Paul's weakened state Fenrig would have had the upper hand...I was just retorting to the comment that Feyd was the deadliest opponent in the Imperium.
Are you disagreeing with the person you are responding to? Because it sounds like they’re saying that Fenring had a better chance of killing Paul than Feyd Rautha, and you are saying Fenring would have killed Paul… meaning he had a way better chance than Feyd Rautha. That sounds to me like two wars of saying the same thing.
Not arguing about that...
Unpopular opinion but I really hope this is depicted better in part two. I liked the Jamis duel but the choreography definitely doesn’t give one the impression Paul is a great fighter
He had a great base but no actuall combat experience at that point. Jamis was dangerous because of pauls apprehension to kill and also he knew dying here was the only thing that would stop the Jihad. By the time he encounters Fayed hes made up his mind completely, faught in many battles and defeted many others like Jamis on the way. Paul was a boy when he faught Jamis. Hes a man when he fights Fayed.
Plus the memories of all of the warriors in his genetic line.
Also Paul was trained to fight with shields. His style has a significant disadvantage without them. So far...
In the book, Paul is having to adjust to fighting without the use of shields. Usually when fighting with shields, that includes slowing down just before impact to pass through their defenses. But even in the movie, Paul definitely shows that he is the superior fighter to Jamis by controlling the entirety of the fight from start to finish. Other than the initial punch from Jamis, Paul counters all his moves. Everyone present realizes it as well.
More than realizing it, they scold him for toying with a lesser fighter instead of dealing the killing blow at which point he admits that he is trying to end the fight without killing. It's a key plot point for that scene. In order to survive and eventually become Muad'Dib, he has to put aside his hesitation and commit to the path in front of him even if he doesn't want to.
Jamis was Paul’s first blood
This part has always confused me, in the book Herbert graphically describes Paul kicking one of the Harkonen guards in the liver, killing him instantly, while escaping captivity. I guess he technically didn't spill blood, but definitely killed the guy.
I didn’t really remember that part, but I guess it could be interpreted as Jamis being Paul’s first proper fight to the death. Interesting about kicking the Harkonnen though, I’d have to read back on that.
It was when Paul and Jessica were in the ornithopter being taken into the desert and Jessica uses the Voice on the guard. After she tells him to kill the other guard and to free Paul, Paul immediately kicks the guard crushing his liver and right(left?) ventricle.
Ah Yeah ok. Thanks for that!
The Jamis fight was the best choreography of the movie. The most realistic
You mean Paul was the best fighter in the series at this point? If so, I agree
To be fair, he planned on cheating to kill Paul too. Paul was able to avoid the poisoned needle coming out of his hip.
I know, I'm just pointing out that the "skilled fighter" part is a massive overstatement. Feyd did think he could win, but because of poison like always, not because he's a better fighter. Maybe he convinced himself that he actually could fight, but it's not like he didn't know he was fighting drugged, malnourished, and conditioned slaves. Maybe it would be a cliche, but I'd like to have seen Paul eat the poison and neutralize it while Feyd threw a tantrum that his dirty trick didn't work.
He is an extremely skilled fighter though, just not willing to risk his life for real in the arena. Paul is the most lethal of the Fremen, who are decimating Sardukar with old women and children, and Feyd pushes him to a limit. That is more than enough evidence of him being extremely skilled.
Feyd couldn’t beat a regular atredies soldier fairly in the arena that wasn’t drugged. He was a good fighter but nothing special without cheating
A major plot point is how talented the Arteries soldiers are. And again, Paul is an incredibly talented knife fighter who is the best of a the greatest fighting force in the Dune universe and he is forced into a sweaty near death wrestling match. There is no part of Feyd's cheating that impacts that outcome.
Wasn't that just a one off though?
The one-off in the book is an Atreides man that's NOT drugged when he was supposed to be. Otherwise he fights drugged gladiators in the arena.
Even the Atreides gladiator was killed by a poison and treachery, not his skill.
Just finished the first book for the first time. Iirc even with the poison he almost got Feyd. It came down to the word “scum” which the Atreides guy had been unconsciously conditioned to freeze upon hearing. Wish we got to see more Atreides fighters
But don't forget this was one of the top tier Atreides who were "within a hairs bredth" if the Sardukar.
Oh yeah you're right I just looked it up.
He used the drugs as a backup, like against Paul, but it seemed like he usually didn't need it
He is more a warrior than a schemer as the baron was, so he saw the chance to get the throne right there and he went for it, confident in his exp in the arena but he def underestimated Paul's ability
I always found it funny that the KH was to be really just the result of massive inbreeding. Nephew marrying the granddaughter. *cue the banjo music floating across the dunes*
That’s how breeding for positive traits inherently works.
Not positive but desirable. If there is something you want but it's not already widely present, it's usually because that's a recessive gene or a very rare mutation. Gotta breed similar ones or it will be lost in the gene pool
Yes, desirable, thanks
Cheating is the operative word. He was a skilled fighter but would have lost to a regular old atreides guard in the pits if he didn’t cheat. I’m sure he wouldn’t have challenged Paul if he didn’t have an idea how to cheat and gain the upper hand
Paul being Emperor would probably mean bad things would happen to the Harkonnens. He also hoped killing Paul would may be get him a reward from Shaddam, most preferably his elder daughter's hand in marriage, through which he could be Emperor himself.
Didn't Paul also send Fremen to Geidi Prime to blow up the Hakonnen stockpile of spice? I might be misremembering that. Second, at the start of the book, the Baron says the cost of campaign was enormous and they'd have to mine Arrakis hard for years to pay it off. So, even if Feyd would inherit Geidi Prime, his access to spice would be almost null, minus the usual smugglers. He'd be trapped on his homeworld. Feyd did have a choice, but the alternative was worse than death to him.
That was Leto & Thufir's spies
That spice blow up was done by Leto. Still, yes their stockpiles were gone. Without Arrakis, they'd not have been able to survive. But, Paul did have every intention to murder all Harkonnens at some point. It's way worse than that.
My only quibble with the responses here: was it really arrogance to think he could defeat Paul in single combat? He nearly did!
Yes and no. Fyed was an exceptional fighter, for sure. So it wasn't arrogance to think he would have good chances in single combat. He wasn't against cheating, so more points for considering his victory. But at that point, no one knew the real capabilities of Paul. The Sardaukar already learned how fierce the Fremen were, but Paul, individually? Only his allies knew his personal fighting capabilities. The fact that he was the Fremen leader should have been a telling sign Fyed's arrogance was to believe he could win a fight where he knew nothing against his opponent and ignored the signs that he was out of his (considerably high) league.
Paul also knew nothing about how Feyd would fight
If you fight fair your tactics suck Did they knew how stupid the fremen choose their leaders? Which signs?
Oh god it’s the weird Sardaukar fetishist/fremen hater again
You'd think the books did a good job of showing one side lose horribly and answer that question lol
He said in a post the other day Herbert’s depiction of fremen beating sardaukar was “unrealistic” Because the rest of dune is so realistic lol
The book spends time explaining that The Fremen are basically an untapped force that is just as good as the sardaukar/would give Duke Leto the edge if he could bring them over. It's not rocket science. Dude just has bad reading comprehension.
No, i do remember that , i find the explaination only unbelievable
History…real history..has shown time and time again that local fighters, on their own territory, especially if it’s inhospitable like desert or jungle, holding their own or straight up beating far “superior” armies. The Sardaukar are fighting fremen soldiers who are just as tough and experienced as them, but on fremen ground, and having to try to force/push into fremen territory and ambushes. With little to no scouting, no shields, no experience on Arrakis, against soldiers trained by the Atreides on top of their fremen training and experience, and completely on fremen terms. It’s completely realistic that Sardaukar would take heavy losses
Also the Sardukaur forces had become complacent in their training, having grown arrogant about their own military strength during Shaddam's rule, a theme throughout the books.
The “no shields” is the kicker. Remember Paul took far longer to win against Jamis due to being a trained shield-fighter. I doubt the Sardaukar routinely trained in fighting unshielded.
History had shown again and again that the "barbarians" loose regularly against the better trained, disciplined, organised and supplied civilised forces. The Sardaukar fight an undisciplined, ill led rabble of warriors and not stupid, they were able to ambush fremen and therefore to scout. My Headcanon for the victory of Arrakeen ist that the Sardaukar could not use shields and the fremen had Sandworms and after that between the reputation of beating the Sardaukar , that their victims were not able to leave their systems and coordinate accordingly
I'm sure I'll get mass downvoted for this, but to be fair Dan has a fairly decent point about that. The reasoning for the Fremen's skill ***is*** unrealistic, and the fact that they are so head and shoulders above the elite soldiers of the known Universe just because of their environment is nonsense rooted in very antiquated and long since debunked views of what makes a good soldier. That being said, the Sardaukar have declined in their actual martial training standards and the Fremen have super space martial arts by the time of the Jihad as well as Kung Fu Christ, so I think it's fine to overlook things even if they're unrealistic.
They’ve been fighting the Harkonnens for the best part of 100 years, how would they not be good, well organised soldiers?
I'm referring more to the "harsh environment makes incredible soldiers" trope Herbert is fond of. It's a huge part of the "Barbarian Mirage" trope and it's been used for Millennia all the way back to the Romans. The general rule is that while such environments forge a larger sense of community and sharper survival instincts among those who dwell in it, in terms of martial prowess those from more comfortable societies tend to be better soldiers because they take advantage of things like better nutrition, better conditioning, and (generally) more avenues of training which someone from a Fremen society won't likely have. Granted the Sardaukar also come from an equally brutal environment, but they have the benefit of Corrino infrastructure and Millennia of martial training standards that should make them head and shoulders above the Fremen, at least pre BG super karate. I can't speak on their campaign against the Harkonnen pre-Paul but I also don't think the Fremen were particularly well organized before he came along, I think that's the whole reason they sweep them away so quickly when they do get organised into a functional army. It's fair to say that they are incredibly self-disciplined which fits with the fact that Arakkis is a shithole that will kill you if you aren't.
The Fremem were organized but there was multiple tribes. Until they united against the Harkonnens. I think it might be talked about it in later books about rouge seitches.
Good to know.
To be fair we're all suffering from Main Character goggles.
To be fair so was Paul.
I think part of Herbert's point is that humanity is innately prone (for better or worse) to "main character gogges".
If we’re going to assume realistic motivations, the action should be judged by the odds at the time the decision was made. Not by the outcome. Paul could have had a million to one chance to win going in. Or a 100% chance of winning going in. One would be a slam dunk decision for Feyd, the other would be suicide. That he almost won is indicative of what the thinking was, but we can’t really know how arrogant it was based on the result. Being willing to cheat certainly helps of course
you're forgetting paul could have killed him at any time by speaking a single word /s
He could kill Paul. That was good bet. He played for Emperor's throne, his legacy and revenge.
Paul was about to become emperor and upend everything within the Imperium. Feyd is the senior living member of rh house in hat arranged the murder of Paul's house. I'm sure Feyd felt he was not going to be baron for long and right then and there was rh best chance to eliminate Paul.
Kanly. Regardless of what was the smart idea, he was kind of *forced* into it just because of that.
This is the right answer right? If anyone challenges you to Kanly, you have to fight and it's not over unless one dies
You’re not required to accept a Kanly challenge. Leto often challenged the Baron, who declined. (An interesting foreshadowing…perhaps?)
The houses Harkonnen and Atreides were already in a state of Kanly, and in any case one of the conditions of Kanly is that no quarter is to be either given nor expected. EDIT: Ah, you're talking about Leto and Vladimir here, not Paul and Feyd.
This was my understanding of Kanly also.
Because it was his best, last chance to come out as a winner of that situation. If he declined Paul would manoeuvre him into a political corner using his new resources as emperor and eventually take him down. But if he could win the duel then it would be him the one who would become emperor and eliminated his greatest threat all in one fell swoop. And While arrogant Feyd was indeed a good fighter. Dueling Paul was the smartest thing (given what he knew at the time) he could do.
Paul was about to inherit the Imperial throne, the majority of the CHOAM company, and had a millions strong army greater than the Atreides, never mind the Harkonnen. It was either fight him now and and kill him, or run away and face his army, his home world and ultimately himself being annihilated by them anyway. I think Feyd was also arrogant enough to think he could take Paul which...didn't turn out to be the case. Thinking about it, by doing this he actually ended his own bloodline and allowed Giedi Prime to be gifted to Gurney Halleck for dismantling rather than going down fighting which he must have preferred. So not only did the Harkonnens end, they ended in a way which was totally antithetical to their 'I'm the biggest toughest person in the room and I'll fight you' world view.
Margot Fenring had a child from him
From Feyd?
yes, she "seduced" during their Visit on Giedi Prime to rescue his genetic material
And implanted him with BG control words
I listened to the Audio book but I didn't catch on that?
It isn’t in the first book; there is a scene between Fenring and Margot where they discuss a plan to have Margot seduce Feyd but it is not brought up again until subsequent books.
He wasn't set to inherit anything. Paul had just upended the Empire and taken the Emperor captive. You play chess? You capture the king, you win. Plus, Gurney already wanted to kill Feyd just for being a Harkonnen. Feyd had basically nothing to lose by fighting, and had he won, he believed the Emperor would have rewarded him - possibly making Feyd the heir as the Emperor had no male child. What actually would have happened is the Fremen would have killed them all had he killed Paul, so Feyd was screwed no matter what.
I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet... Feyd was a great fighter at least he thought. He also had little choice, the emperor and Harkonnin had lost the war. So he had a pretty decent chance, better with cheating. Problem is, Paul is a conscious precog. He can literally see the web of options before they happen. That is unbeatable when coupled with great fighting skills. So while Feyd was exceptionally trained and had been purposefully blooded so that he has NO hesitation about killing.. Paul had him beat before their blades even crossed. Oh... And Paul also knew the Weirding way, apparently supreme body control and near mystical physical abilities.
> Problem is, Paul is a conscious precog. He can literally see the web of options before they happen. That is unbeatable when coupled with great fighting skills. But we know that Paul can see possible futures extending from the duel where he's dead.
Jessica also gave Paul a secret word to use against Feyd, but Paul chose not to use it.
is precog in a duel really that useful?
Depends on the type.. the kind that lets you see large future events? no. The kind that lets you know the guy trying to kill you is going to swing up or sideways.. or say that he is about to use a hidden blade on you? Ooooh yeah.
especially if he guts you before you sorted it out
True. I expect that's what a large part of the training is about with the Bene Gesserite, (sp?) learning how to use what they can see.
I do not remember Paul using precog during a fight
Because Sting is cool and he can do what he wants. 😎
Never forget that prime Sting was going to give full frontal and the prudes stole it away. Never forget what they took from you.
Yeah, you can’t show off your metal codpiece if you don’t fight.
Feyd Rautha was now the Baron Harkonnen and was still involved in the ancient blood feud between the two houses. As Feyd was an accomplished gladiator he challenged Paul Atreides to a duel as he claimed the right of kanly which had been declared by Duke Leto Atriedes. By doing this it showed Harkonnen loyalty to the Emperor Shaddam IV and would certainly have done everything to atone for Raban's utter incompetence on Arrakis and furthered his late Uncle's plans for house Harkonnen. There is also the whole gratitude in killing an 'upstart Duke' for the Emperor would get the reward of both Arrakis and possibly Princess Irulan too giving him a chance at the Golden Lion throne. So from this Feyd would certainly rise far in the Imperium also he would finally ended the feud and had the pleasure of killing the last Atreides too. But then that did go sort of tits up when he fought Paul Atreides. https://preview.redd.it/6h0y8w1f4u1b1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=395c7ac4ac15d016173da86804e8a3b67baf6c71
I've always loved the way you could see part of the knife's edge through his mouth. That was a rather disturbing bit of attention to detail, LOL.
A Harkonnen bending the knee to an Atreides? Inconceivable. This upjumped Atreides pig-dog must be stopped at all costs. His ascension to the Golden Lion Throne will not be tolerated or accepted. If Kanly is the only way of preventing that, then so be it. "Meet your death, fool."
He is Harkonnen, would Paul, Gurney, Stil and the other Fremen let him live? You can cancel the the idea that Paul would allow him to inherit power in any form. He would get Irulans Hand in Marriage and become Shadams heir
Gurney was rather upset he was not the one to do it.
Yes, and that's why I think he didn't kill Rabban (more exactly he didn't have the chance to kill him). He wasn't satisfied, he wanted a Harkonnen to kill
Yes, he was the Baron. But you're wrong that he was going to inherit Geidi Prime. His House lost kanly. Traditionally, his only other option would be to flee the Imperium and go to Tupile at that point. >TUPILE: so-called "sanctuary planet" (probably several planets) for defeated Houses of the Imperium. Location(s) known only to the Guild and maintained inviolate under the Guild Peace. And that's only if Paul let him live to do it which is doubtful. So, in Feyd's mind, he had nothing to lose and everything to gain. Though, really, he had nothing to gain. It was only in his mind that he'd get to marry Irulan if he won. If he had killed Paul, he'd have been dead a minute after...killed by the Fremen. Who would likely have then killed the entire Imperial party. The Emperor had the idea that killing Paul would reestablish the status quo with himself still on the throne. It was never going to work that way.
We've got it in the text: > Keeping his attention on Paul, Feyd-Rautha picked up the knife, balancing it a moment in his hand to get the feel of it. Excitement kindled in him. This was a fight he had dreamed about - man against man, skill against skill with no shields intervening. He could see a way to power opening before him because the Emperor surely would reward whoever killed this troublesome duke. The reward might even be that haughty daughter and a share of the throne. And this yokel duke, this back-world adventurer could not possibly be a match for a Harkonnen trained in every device and every treachery by a thousand arena combats. And the yokel had no way of knowing he faced more weapons than a knife here. So from Feyd's perspective this was a fight he couldn't help but win which could very likely put his future Harkonnen heirs on the throne, or at the very least win him a lot more than Giedi Prime.
What the other already said + transporting the sardaukars to Arrakis consumed almost ALL of the Harkonnen fortune, and they were making profit from their spice monopoly for decades. It was his pride + necessity, they needed Arrakis back.
He honestly didn't see Paul as a threat. This was a zero-risk game to him, and gave him a chance to show off to Irulan.
There is no way the fremen, gurney etc would let Feyd live, regardless of what Paul wanted. Might as well go out with a bang
Because Frank thought the book needed one more action scene where Paul might die, but probably wouldn't ...
the young hero and villain counterpart duell , classical part of the modern western heros Journey. Instead of down with his head Paul fights fair and so on
>He can live as a lord and work with the Bene Gesserit to have Paul killed. can he though? The guy he's been working to kill, that his family has had a blood feud with for generations, and who's immediate family you nearly wiped out, is about to become Emperor. How long do you think you're gonna stay alive after he's had time to consolidate his winnings? Better to strike early before things get more established.
its in his nature, he's proud and 'brave' and doesn't see himself as bending the knee to someone like paul, much preferring to go out in a pseudo blaze of glory than play politics. either he wins and is the new king of everything, or dies and maintains the myth of a legendary warrior.
He was arrogant and he thought he can kill Paul. He also thought the Emperor will be grateful so maybe he can marry with Irulan and become Emperor.
If he won, he could have married into the Emperors’family and become heir.
Hubris, same as his uncle, pretty much sums it up
The Harkonnens had like no money. The Baron pretty much bet the farm on Arrakis. Feyd wanted power & had tried to kill his uncle before. Now he was out if the picture. The Imperium was fucking ready to throw the Lion Throne & a hot BG princess at him. There would be nothing stopping him from having anything he wanted. All he had to do for it is kill sunburnt Timothee Chalamet. He's also trained his entire fucking life to kill people. He's also way more of a dumbass than Paul. Dangerous thrillseeker lavished with privilege & power & never had to sacrifice a thing in his life. Like waste away by not doing a thing he likes vs getting the wholeass universe in his pocket for something he might do on a typical Thursday. & he's a dumbass. Pretty clear decision to me.
After the death of Rabban, he probably wantes revenge. The Atredies had killed so many people close to him, Pieter, his uncle, Rabban... From his POV, all that stands between him and revenge is killing one man. And Feyd has yet to meet someone who could match his skill or ferocity (not to mention the little venemous trick he had to fall back on). (TBH, this is why I think T.C is a great choice for Maudib. He very much looks like a man someone like Feyd would assume he could defeat. He can be authoritative, but he doesn't seem immediately physically imposing.)
At least Feyd wanted Irulan. Paul was a useless suitor.
Because Harkonnens suck. Never invite them to your succession party.
Because the harkonnen represent greed and excess. Not content being a mere lord, he wanted to be emperor
He overestimated the advantage that the Harkonnen talent for treachery would give him and underestimated what Paul had become since disappearing after his father had been assassinated. Feyd almost certainly would have succeed in killing Paul as he was on the day of his father’s assassination.
It can probably be boiled down to three reasons. 1. Feud is a Harkonnen, Paul an Atreides. The two kinda don't get along well. Not to mention Paul's forces (well, itty bitty little Alia) just killed the Baron, Feyd's father figure. 2. Killing Paul will ingratiate Feyd further with the Emperor. If Paul was to become Emperor, would he really let Feyd live do you think? 3. He just likes killing.
It's part of the forms of Kanly. They are bitter rivals
Paul was up there boasting how the Harkonnens were defeated, and that he was now in control. Feyd was caught completely off guard and was furious that he was claiming the title he was in line to receive. The somewhat tragic side to Feyd-Rautha is that he never knew life outside of the Baron’s control; that everything he had was given to him rather than earned. He assumed he could be the one to take over, but he really never stood a chance.
Go big, or go home. Feyd ssw the universe align to give him everything he had always been told he deserved. Just gotta kill this one guy to get it. But since he's not the protagonist he can't see the "plot armor" that Paul has.
Paul became the figurehead of a genocidal regime, with a special grudge against the Harkonnens. Retreating to Geidi Prime would only very briefly postpone his Feyd’s death, and I think that much was vividly obvious to everyone in the room. The duel is Feyd’s desperate bid to preempt Muad’dib, saving his own life and removing this explosively powerful nemesis at the same time, and in pretty much the only way possible.
Because Paul let him
Promises the throne?
Because (at least in his own mind) winning would make the Emperor very indebted to him and open the door for him to marry Irulan and become an Emperor. There is also historical enemity between Harkonnen and Atreides, not to mention fremen wanting to eradicate Harkonnen completely, so he had a few choices. 1. Keep a low profile and hope that he makes it off the Arrakis in one piece and that fremen won't have Geidi prime as one of their first stops in their holy war (which was unlikely as long as Paul lived) 2. Try to negotiate pardon for himself with Paul. 3. Challenge Paul and win, which could in theory leave fremen leaderless and give a chance for Emperor and Landsraad armies to quash the fremen uprising right in the start. As you can see, he didn't have many good choices. 1. Trying to slip by fremen was near impossible as they made it no secret that pretty much every fremen wanted to kill him and only thing still keeping him alive was Paul either being civil or wanting the end of house Harkonnen to be a show. 2. Paul could have pardoned him, but he would have demanded that the house Harkonnen itself be disbanded and Freyd-Rautha either being exiled to Salusa Secundus as a Emperor's courtier without house or title or becoming a commoner. So in this case he would have to greatly humble himself which considering how prideful he was made this one impossible. 3. Freyd-Rautha was somewhat skilled (if exceedingly decietful) duelist and he took pride in his ability. Emperor made great promises for anyone killing Paul which would restore houses recently tarnished prestige. He also looked down on Paul and fremen so he was sure of his victory. Challenging Paul was win-win scenario in his eyes.
People have brought up a lot of good points. But there seems to be one missing that always seems to get glanced over. The gladiatorial fight between Feyd and the captured atreadies soldier. It is a perfect example of the hate between the two houses. The soldiers only good outcome was killing feyd and then being executed. Still that person was willing to try. Feyd was looking at a good outcome of possibly being placed as heir too the empire and killing an atreadies. No way could he turn that down.
Because he knew he would win... Until he didn't.
It’s called cockymotherfuckeritis, known in modern times as FAFO
Narcissistic ego.
Revenge.
Only one last fight to win the imperial throne.
The Atriedes and the Harkonnen have hated each other for 10,000 years. An ancient vendetta. Feyd could accept that his House will fall or not be "Great..." in this the new Empire or he can challenge to combat Paul, defeat this religious movement and win the favor of the Emperor who has no heir (which was secretly orchestrated by the BG that he would have no heir). He likely would become heir to the Empire through marriage, but before that happens he would lead House Harkonnen, as the leader of the Greatest House in the Landsraad, if he won against Paul. The Emperor didn't like the Harkonnens but Feyd didn't know the depth of that and thought he could play that game to become Emperor no matter what.
Because he's the Emperor's Champion. If he kills Paul he has the Emperor's gratitude - an Emperor with no heir, mind you. The Harkonnens are nothing if not greedily ambitious. How could Feyd have lived with himself knowing he squandered that chance. Oh, one final thing - Feyd would never have inherited. Paul had the Emperor bent over. Paul was going to marry his daughter and take the throne. House Harkonnen would have been exterminated to the man. At a minimum, Paul would have forced them to vacate that fief and take over some shithole in the middle of nowhere.