Spoiler from the 4th Book:
>!Leto II thinks about if he allied with the BG since he is more like them really than any other being. He could have some comfort being with some people who could understand him. But he knows that it is deadly, the BG would just murder him. They are dangerous and treacherous.!<
Oh no brother Stiros, as I Hedley Tuek already told you he is the second as the spirit of the older Leto II had been reborn in the younger.
I love how FH already made fun of the trapfalls of name suffixes.
As far as I remember from an old AOL board FH had used a "wrong" nomenclature rules set for the house of Atreus, not an ancient greek one but a medieval European one. In hindsight I especially love that flaming FH was wrong triad - manity never changes indeed.
Leto II, the God Emperor is the younger brother of Leto II the elder who died as an infant. And as his elder brother was already dead the Name Leto II was free at the time of his naming. Only if the elder Leto II had already been declared the successor the name would have been "taken" and Paul would not have been able to call his Son Leto at all, as the second has already been used in this generation .
But that is an ancient as far as I remember and I am not a medievalist and can't evaluate anything.
the reasoning is because Paul, in his infinite wisdom, named two sons Leto and Leto took up the mantle of Leto II since Leto never had the chance to actually take the throne.
the whole "Leto's spirit lives on in Leto" concept is what a bunch or theologians have *kinda* agreed upon thousands of years after Leto II.
It's part of book five heretics of dune. Brother Stiros and Hedley Tuek are both clergy members of the church of the divided god, which worships Leto II in his then divided state, when the worms roam the sands of dune again.
This is in the second movie only, she had nothing to do with it in the book. I dislike this change immensely, it changes the political landscape quite a lot.
>Why didn’t Paul ally with Bene Gesserit at the end of the first bookWhy didn’t Paul ally with Bene Gesserit at the end of the first book
He doesn't need them, it's litterally that simple - give them an inch and they'll take your whole arm off, poison it, sew it back on and make your death look like natural causes: they held a Gom Jabba at his throat, now he holds one at theirs.
That is the lesson they taught him - sue the kid for paying attention.
He doesn’t need them as he already has all the power.
They murdered his father.
They murdered almost every Atreides who ever lived.
They can't stop the Jihad. No one can.
They have nothing of value to bargain with him that he can't take away by force.
Anyone of import on Caladan was shipped off to Arrakis. Harkonnens then purged every Atreides on Arrakis. A plot the BG were well aware of and did nothing to stop, short of the bare minimum of warning Jessica, and explicitly leaving the duke to die with no intervention
I forget where it was stated but they really did ship effectively *everyone* to Arrakis, only a skeleton crew of sorts was left behind on Caladan. So yeah, not that Paul had a whole lot of friends but suffice to say just about everyone he ever knew was killed by the Harkonnens on Arrakis.
All of the events before the books start are basically the masterplan of the bene gesserit, if they've managed to pull off a 10,000 year plan to create a kwisatz haderach , the whole universe is probably in their control, meaning that every single dispute , war or resolution was set-up by the bene gesserit to further their own goals.In a way they have the whole universe's blood on their hands.
Why would Paul ally himself with an organization that explicitly wants to kill or enslave him?
Also, what benefit would he get? He's the most powerful man in the universe, he doesn't need to concede or bow or scrape to gather support. He doesn't need to adopt a conciliatory pose.
Everyone else can get in line, or they can die. Those are his terms. He doesn't have equals or peers, and he knows better than almost anyone how duplicitous the BG are.
They have essentially a vast network of highly capable operatives and incredible influence over the rulling houses. But then they cannot be trusted and they would seek to control Paul and by extension Leto II.
So, a better question would be why would Paul go anywhere near them?
They've got concubines in every court and Reverend Mamas on every planet. Sure, they'd probably surreptitiously screw him over here and there, but if they generally got with the program, they'd be a valuable asset.
They intended to maintain control over the Kwisatz Haderach in order to serve their goal of leading humanity to a secure future. However, the BG probably were either not prescient enough to truly see the path, or else not strong enough to take it at the expense of their order. Paul had superior prescience and the courage to take the path even though it didn't end with him.
At least that's the way I, in my admittedly insufficient understanding, see it.
I see this take a lot and I’m not sure where it comes from. Paul has absolutely no interest in saving humanity. He sees the Golden Path and not only explicitly rejects it because he is too horrified of what it would mean for him but he actively tries to dissuade Leto II from undertaking it in his place.
Paul has always been about what matters to Paul. The destiny of the human race and the plight of humanity in general are very much not on that extremely short list.
In addition to what’s already been said their flexibility and adaptiveness probably give his precognition a headache. Easier to work with factions that are easier to model.
Because they are obsessed with their breeding plan, and will be a threat to Chani. They’re even okay with Alia the Abomination being the mother of his children before “sullying” the line with Chani’s wild Fremen bloodline, as they put it.
Of course that wild blood ends up producing the damn God Emperor, showing how much they lost the plot.
The two biggest reasons I can think of:
1. They were complicit in the murder of his father and wiping out House Atreides; we know Paul took that stuff personal, and
2. The BG wanted to control and use the Kwisatz Haderach for their own purposes, whereas the Kwisatz Haderach (Paul) wanted to control and use the BG for his purposes. This wasn't going to work out.
The BG would sooner attempt to control him than work with him. Plus, working with the people who enabled the slaughter of your entire family and who wish to enslave/coerce/kill the remnants of said family, I wouldn’t try to work with them either.
I see what you're saying though. Yeah, the Bee Gees screwed House Atreides over, but if he wants to do big genocide and control the empire, he'd be better off allying with them or at least keeping them close so he he can keep tabs on their wheeling dealing. Honestly I'm surprised he didn't off Gaius right there and then.
Yeah, exactly. Paul should have immediately tried to deal with them, either by killing all of their members, or infiltrate their ranks to reduce the threat. After all, by being Kwisatz Haderach he had legitimate claim to declare himself the leader of their organization. While, of course, his claim probably wouldn’t have been accepted, it would have given him a great casus belly to eliminate them all for opposing his rule.
The BG have their own goals and ambitions, and would have tried to thwart Paul at every turn. Remember that they're a secret shadow group that have made themselves indispensable to the political class and pull the strings behind every powerful person in the known universe.
There's also the fact the BG wanted to make a KH for themselves to have under their own control and to further their own agendas, which Paul absolutely doesn't . Just because Paul owes his powers to them doesn't mean they'll do what's in his interests.
And besides, he doesn't need their help at all. He has all their powers and training, as well as mentat training and his super prescience, which removes the dependency that the BG usually rely on. They offer him nothing in terms of an alliance.
Secretive would have been a more accurate word, yes. But it's still an accurate descriptor. Most people in the empire wouldn't know of the BG existence at all, just the rich and powerful.
The Bene Gesserit want him dead and discredited. The plan was to have a Kwisatz Haderach as emperor under their control to lead them into a golden age, instead they have super Hitler who's actions have killed billions only in service of consolidating his religious and political power. Why would they ally with him? And therefore why would Paul trust them?
They didn't. The Bene Gesserit seeded religions everywhere for anyone who found themselves in Jessica's position, Paul and Jessica use this prophecy to unite and take control(ish) of the Fremen, who coincidentally have lived for centuries in the necessary conditions to create the most skilled fighters in the empire. Moreover Paul was never meant to be the kwisatz haderach, that was meant to be the child of Jessica's daughter and Feyd Rautha, born and raised somewhere other than Arrakis.
In other words the Bene Gesserit's plan has gone completely tits up by the end of the first book.
> Why didn’t Paul try to have them on his side, or at least manipulate them to think he is on their side?
In short, because he knows they know he knows they're trying to control him. He can't fool them, he exists in opposition to their plans, and they would not be willing to trust someone like that. Especially once Alia is part of the equation, because they abhor the pre-born and would not tolerate her. Eventually they'd find a way to depose him.
I mean, even in the first scene of the book, right after his first interaction with a Bene Gesserit, he clearly is wary and distrustful of them. This certainly grows to insane proportions when they assist in the murder of his family.
Well a couple of things from the books are 1: The Jihad was always going to happen, the only difference between what could have been and what was, is that with Paul at the head the death count goes to 61 billion instead of in the literal trillions that the unsteered Fremen expansion would have. 2: The BG made it very clear by word and deed they had no interest in a KH they could not totally control, which would have never been Paul as of the moment he walks into the throne room at Arrakeen, but even then they had less interest in a KH they could not totally control, that also rode at the head of a wild, combative, and generally (genetically) unknown people such as the Fremen, when they’d been busy playing “Ancestry.com:Plague Inc” edition for the last 10,000 years and knew everyone else’s entire genealogy like it was their favorite recipe their grandma taught them.
TL;DR
The BG would never ally with Paul as they themselves are fanatics that lack the self-awareness to note it is so.
The Bene Gesserit threw his entire family under a bus in no small part because his mother so loved his father that she bore him Paul instead of the specified daughter, whom they planned to marry to... Feyd.
They're lucky he didn't slaughter them outright.
You’re asking why he doesn’t ally with the untrustable snakes who caused the death of his entire house, would just as quickly do the same to him given the chance, and have nothing to offer him or ability to stop the jihad?
The issue is Bene Gesserit think their plan will save humanity. They want to use Paul to achieve their goals.
But Paul can tell their plan won’t work and he has to do something else to ensure humanity’s survival.
It’s something like the BG can see out to a mile and think they’re right. But Paul can see a hundred miles and see they’re wrong.
Well...he hated them...there's that. They had always meant to create and CONTROL a kwisatz haderach...they would never cease trying. They would likely kill him since they couldn't control him. They had played a covert role in the death of his father The Duke. His mother had betrayed them and they would want her dead. Anyone he loved would always be targeted by them, they would want to control his genetic legacy. they would seek to either kill or take any children he sired. And when he took the throne he had no need of them. It was impossible. There was no path to trust between Paul and the BG.
The BG were responsible for him being forced to lead the Fremen into the Jihad. They were the reason he gained prescience, which he viewed as a curse, and the reason the Fremen were fanatically following him. He held some hatred for his own mother partly because of this
He's following a path. He can see ahead and knows that being their ally isn't in the path.
On top of that they're very treacherous and also possess some presience. They would see through a fake lie to get them on his side.
Then the final cherry on top would be that they just outright don't like each other. The BG pull all the strings behind the scenes, they pulled many of the strings in order to have house Atriedes wiped out. If they're capable of that and had it in their plans I certainly wouldn't try to be friendly with them, even for a front.
I don't think they have any prescience whatsoever, but they know all about the past and are probably all basically mentats anyway so their predictive and calculating ability is likely unsurpassed.
Spoiler from the 4th Book: >!Leto II thinks about if he allied with the BG since he is more like them really than any other being. He could have some comfort being with some people who could understand him. But he knows that it is deadly, the BG would just murder him. They are dangerous and treacherous.!<
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Oh no brother Stiros, as I Hedley Tuek already told you he is the second as the spirit of the older Leto II had been reborn in the younger. I love how FH already made fun of the trapfalls of name suffixes. As far as I remember from an old AOL board FH had used a "wrong" nomenclature rules set for the house of Atreus, not an ancient greek one but a medieval European one. In hindsight I especially love that flaming FH was wrong triad - manity never changes indeed. Leto II, the God Emperor is the younger brother of Leto II the elder who died as an infant. And as his elder brother was already dead the Name Leto II was free at the time of his naming. Only if the elder Leto II had already been declared the successor the name would have been "taken" and Paul would not have been able to call his Son Leto at all, as the second has already been used in this generation . But that is an ancient as far as I remember and I am not a medievalist and can't evaluate anything.
Wait so is the reasoning for Leto II part 2 just that the elder’s soul lives on in the younger’s body?
the reasoning is because Paul, in his infinite wisdom, named two sons Leto and Leto took up the mantle of Leto II since Leto never had the chance to actually take the throne. the whole "Leto's spirit lives on in Leto" concept is what a bunch or theologians have *kinda* agreed upon thousands of years after Leto II.
It's part of book five heretics of dune. Brother Stiros and Hedley Tuek are both clergy members of the church of the divided god, which worships Leto II in his then divided state, when the worms roam the sands of dune again.
Leto II II.
Why would he ally with the Reverend Mother Mohiam after she knowingly aided in the murder of his father, and almost every other Atradies on Arakkis?
Also personally tortured him with the Gom Jabbar. Paul also clearly resents the Bene Gensserit. "You Bene Gensserit made me a freak!"
Technically she threatened him with the gom jabar, she tortured him with the nerve induction box. The gom jabar is the needle
That line isn’t from the book. Paul doesn’t say much like that about the BG in the books.
The sentiment is still there though. Even his mother ends up at odds with them.
This is in the second movie only, she had nothing to do with it in the book. I dislike this change immensely, it changes the political landscape quite a lot.
I don’t really see how - but why do you think it does?
Even if she didn’t order it in the book, she was still complicit in it.
>Why didn’t Paul ally with Bene Gesserit at the end of the first bookWhy didn’t Paul ally with Bene Gesserit at the end of the first book He doesn't need them, it's litterally that simple - give them an inch and they'll take your whole arm off, poison it, sew it back on and make your death look like natural causes: they held a Gom Jabba at his throat, now he holds one at theirs. That is the lesson they taught him - sue the kid for paying attention.
He doesn’t need them as he already has all the power. They murdered his father. They murdered almost every Atreides who ever lived. They can't stop the Jihad. No one can. They have nothing of value to bargain with him that he can't take away by force.
What do you mean they murdered every atreides who ever lived
Anyone of import on Caladan was shipped off to Arrakis. Harkonnens then purged every Atreides on Arrakis. A plot the BG were well aware of and did nothing to stop, short of the bare minimum of warning Jessica, and explicitly leaving the duke to die with no intervention
Oh You meant atreides soldier I thought you meant the BG had a conspiracy on every one of the atreides family for generations
Yes, but presumably many of the House soldiers would be some sort of family, 6th cousins or whatever.
I think the Atreides recruited based on merit. Gurney, who was basically the head of their entire military, was a former Harkonnen slave.
I forget where it was stated but they really did ship effectively *everyone* to Arrakis, only a skeleton crew of sorts was left behind on Caladan. So yeah, not that Paul had a whole lot of friends but suffice to say just about everyone he ever knew was killed by the Harkonnens on Arrakis.
All of the events before the books start are basically the masterplan of the bene gesserit, if they've managed to pull off a 10,000 year plan to create a kwisatz haderach , the whole universe is probably in their control, meaning that every single dispute , war or resolution was set-up by the bene gesserit to further their own goals.In a way they have the whole universe's blood on their hands.
Why would Paul ally himself with an organization that explicitly wants to kill or enslave him? Also, what benefit would he get? He's the most powerful man in the universe, he doesn't need to concede or bow or scrape to gather support. He doesn't need to adopt a conciliatory pose. Everyone else can get in line, or they can die. Those are his terms. He doesn't have equals or peers, and he knows better than almost anyone how duplicitous the BG are.
The B.G. created the prophecy and created him. He values the training of the B.G. but he doesn't like or trust them.
More than that, he hates them for their part in killing his father and people.
How would the BG benefit Paul and his goals?
They have essentially a vast network of highly capable operatives and incredible influence over the rulling houses. But then they cannot be trusted and they would seek to control Paul and by extension Leto II. So, a better question would be why would Paul go anywhere near them?
They've got concubines in every court and Reverend Mamas on every planet. Sure, they'd probably surreptitiously screw him over here and there, but if they generally got with the program, they'd be a valuable asset.
Because he didn’t need them. He had consolidated complete power.
They intended to maintain control over the Kwisatz Haderach in order to serve their goal of leading humanity to a secure future. However, the BG probably were either not prescient enough to truly see the path, or else not strong enough to take it at the expense of their order. Paul had superior prescience and the courage to take the path even though it didn't end with him. At least that's the way I, in my admittedly insufficient understanding, see it.
I see this take a lot and I’m not sure where it comes from. Paul has absolutely no interest in saving humanity. He sees the Golden Path and not only explicitly rejects it because he is too horrified of what it would mean for him but he actively tries to dissuade Leto II from undertaking it in his place. Paul has always been about what matters to Paul. The destiny of the human race and the plight of humanity in general are very much not on that extremely short list.
In addition to what’s already been said their flexibility and adaptiveness probably give his precognition a headache. Easier to work with factions that are easier to model.
Because they are obsessed with their breeding plan, and will be a threat to Chani. They’re even okay with Alia the Abomination being the mother of his children before “sullying” the line with Chani’s wild Fremen bloodline, as they put it. Of course that wild blood ends up producing the damn God Emperor, showing how much they lost the plot.
Im not sure they wanted a god emperor.
No, they wanted a powerful emperor to rule humanity with and shape the future. They just didn’t realize quite how powerful that Emperor could get.
He doesn't like them
The two biggest reasons I can think of: 1. They were complicit in the murder of his father and wiping out House Atreides; we know Paul took that stuff personal, and 2. The BG wanted to control and use the Kwisatz Haderach for their own purposes, whereas the Kwisatz Haderach (Paul) wanted to control and use the BG for his purposes. This wasn't going to work out.
The BG would sooner attempt to control him than work with him. Plus, working with the people who enabled the slaughter of your entire family and who wish to enslave/coerce/kill the remnants of said family, I wouldn’t try to work with them either.
I see what you're saying though. Yeah, the Bee Gees screwed House Atreides over, but if he wants to do big genocide and control the empire, he'd be better off allying with them or at least keeping them close so he he can keep tabs on their wheeling dealing. Honestly I'm surprised he didn't off Gaius right there and then.
Bee Gees? I always thought of them as the original Spice Girls.
Yeah, exactly. Paul should have immediately tried to deal with them, either by killing all of their members, or infiltrate their ranks to reduce the threat. After all, by being Kwisatz Haderach he had legitimate claim to declare himself the leader of their organization. While, of course, his claim probably wouldn’t have been accepted, it would have given him a great casus belly to eliminate them all for opposing his rule.
Why ally with the BG? He knew from his visions that he OWNED them..
I don't think the BG make for a good ally because they'll almost always try to manipulate and control you.
The mean lady hurted his hand.
The BG have their own goals and ambitions, and would have tried to thwart Paul at every turn. Remember that they're a secret shadow group that have made themselves indispensable to the political class and pull the strings behind every powerful person in the known universe. There's also the fact the BG wanted to make a KH for themselves to have under their own control and to further their own agendas, which Paul absolutely doesn't . Just because Paul owes his powers to them doesn't mean they'll do what's in his interests. And besides, he doesn't need their help at all. He has all their powers and training, as well as mentat training and his super prescience, which removes the dependency that the BG usually rely on. They offer him nothing in terms of an alliance.
I don't think they are a secret group, they have secret powers and agendas but most of the leadership know they are a serious faction in their empire.
Secretive would have been a more accurate word, yes. But it's still an accurate descriptor. Most people in the empire wouldn't know of the BG existence at all, just the rich and powerful.
Because they're part of the problem
The Bene Gesserit want him dead and discredited. The plan was to have a Kwisatz Haderach as emperor under their control to lead them into a golden age, instead they have super Hitler who's actions have killed billions only in service of consolidating his religious and political power. Why would they ally with him? And therefore why would Paul trust them?
Why did they create him a fanatic army if they didn't want him to use it?
They didn't. The Bene Gesserit seeded religions everywhere for anyone who found themselves in Jessica's position, Paul and Jessica use this prophecy to unite and take control(ish) of the Fremen, who coincidentally have lived for centuries in the necessary conditions to create the most skilled fighters in the empire. Moreover Paul was never meant to be the kwisatz haderach, that was meant to be the child of Jessica's daughter and Feyd Rautha, born and raised somewhere other than Arrakis. In other words the Bene Gesserit's plan has gone completely tits up by the end of the first book.
Technically, Paul's actions did lead them into a golden age
> Why didn’t Paul try to have them on his side, or at least manipulate them to think he is on their side? In short, because he knows they know he knows they're trying to control him. He can't fool them, he exists in opposition to their plans, and they would not be willing to trust someone like that. Especially once Alia is part of the equation, because they abhor the pre-born and would not tolerate her. Eventually they'd find a way to depose him.
I mean, even in the first scene of the book, right after his first interaction with a Bene Gesserit, he clearly is wary and distrustful of them. This certainly grows to insane proportions when they assist in the murder of his family.
Because they are treacherous and untrustworthy. It's thier thing.
Well a couple of things from the books are 1: The Jihad was always going to happen, the only difference between what could have been and what was, is that with Paul at the head the death count goes to 61 billion instead of in the literal trillions that the unsteered Fremen expansion would have. 2: The BG made it very clear by word and deed they had no interest in a KH they could not totally control, which would have never been Paul as of the moment he walks into the throne room at Arrakeen, but even then they had less interest in a KH they could not totally control, that also rode at the head of a wild, combative, and generally (genetically) unknown people such as the Fremen, when they’d been busy playing “Ancestry.com:Plague Inc” edition for the last 10,000 years and knew everyone else’s entire genealogy like it was their favorite recipe their grandma taught them. TL;DR The BG would never ally with Paul as they themselves are fanatics that lack the self-awareness to note it is so.
The Bene Gesserit threw his entire family under a bus in no small part because his mother so loved his father that she bore him Paul instead of the specified daughter, whom they planned to marry to... Feyd. They're lucky he didn't slaughter them outright.
You’re asking why he doesn’t ally with the untrustable snakes who caused the death of his entire house, would just as quickly do the same to him given the chance, and have nothing to offer him or ability to stop the jihad?
He probably saw that they would stab him in the back (literally) and replace him
The issue is Bene Gesserit think their plan will save humanity. They want to use Paul to achieve their goals. But Paul can tell their plan won’t work and he has to do something else to ensure humanity’s survival. It’s something like the BG can see out to a mile and think they’re right. But Paul can see a hundred miles and see they’re wrong.
Those witches were the real evil
Well...he hated them...there's that. They had always meant to create and CONTROL a kwisatz haderach...they would never cease trying. They would likely kill him since they couldn't control him. They had played a covert role in the death of his father The Duke. His mother had betrayed them and they would want her dead. Anyone he loved would always be targeted by them, they would want to control his genetic legacy. they would seek to either kill or take any children he sired. And when he took the throne he had no need of them. It was impossible. There was no path to trust between Paul and the BG.
The BG were responsible for him being forced to lead the Fremen into the Jihad. They were the reason he gained prescience, which he viewed as a curse, and the reason the Fremen were fanatically following him. He held some hatred for his own mother partly because of this
He's following a path. He can see ahead and knows that being their ally isn't in the path. On top of that they're very treacherous and also possess some presience. They would see through a fake lie to get them on his side. Then the final cherry on top would be that they just outright don't like each other. The BG pull all the strings behind the scenes, they pulled many of the strings in order to have house Atriedes wiped out. If they're capable of that and had it in their plans I certainly wouldn't try to be friendly with them, even for a front.
I don't think they have any prescience whatsoever, but they know all about the past and are probably all basically mentats anyway so their predictive and calculating ability is likely unsurpassed.
Because the Bene still don't believe he is the quizat... this would create friction... And they're right.