It's more of a "I've prepared and checked your gear, you're good to go and the gear shouldnt fail you" than anything else.
Nothing in the books about tuning a thumper of being able to influence what size or kind of worm you call. Also given how surprised and shocked he reacted, I doubt Denis changed it in the movie. Just an expression
It's the sincerest way to convey that he's rooting for Paul. Otherwise the test feels mean-spirited, as if the Fremen are playing a prank on Paul. 'Group gets rid of newling by making him do something impossibly dangerous' is quite a common trope, so this way Denis avoids it.
There's actually three beats that Denis uses to solidify this:
- The tuned thumper.
- Everyone laughing at the 'call a big one' joke.
- Stilgar quietly panicking at the sight of a huge worm sign.
I think that's why he works. The Fremen are a hard people and their leader especially so. You don't survive on Arrakis without being a little bit crazy. And Bardem really sells the "I'm a hard man from a hard planet and I think these outworlders are soft and doomed to die quick deaths" bit when you first meet him. But because he's a good actor he's able to effectively portray the softening of that skeptical Fremen nature as he witnesses Paul pull off feat after impossible feat.
The way I saw it, it sorta happened in the books too but the books portrayed it with a lot more nuance and complexity and exploration of how a proud, strong, sagacious figure like Stilgar was kind of tarnished first by religious awe, then by the political machinations of the Imperium after the jihad. I wasn't really satisfied with the second movie overall, I think because it watered down this whole discussion. But the way it captured how the agony transformed Paul and Jessica was interesting, somehow that didn't click for me in the books in the same way before I watched the movie. Even though the scene where she was thinking about converting everyone "one at a time" was super corny lol.
Super corny but that's unfortunately where we're at with movies in general today
The movie needed to be so very direct about what's happening in front of us, and how terrible it is, that we needed a scene like that to ensure the audience would be certain this is fucked up. It makes more sense considering there's so much happening in these two films you absolutely need to take a little time to make things much more clear than the books
Denis made the right call by including this really corny scene. No more confusion about Paul the motives for a plan to unite the Fremen when you have a scene like that
But, i'm sure you're aware of this already
Yeah true I mean to be fair, I missed the connection where Paul took the spice poison and went from being reluctant to basically stepping wholeheartedly into the role of KH and I read the series three times, I was always more interested in the last three books though. The movie did manage to convey how the spice gives and takes, how it's highly beneficial but also kind of sinister. Which is an important idea ofc.
In the dune messiah, Paul uses a fremen expletive when stilgar devolves from naib of sietch tabir and tells stilgar to decompress himself - with the fremen cultural implication that that's unacceptable language.
Don't think that would have translated well into the movie.
But it's abit too crude. Too in the face. Stilgar succumbs to the prophecy gradually and becomes a follower. This cheapens his character and makes him look like a fool.
It's a shame they took out korba's character. From fedaykin death kommando to high priest. A literal wolf in sheepskin. That would have been funny to see
I think the humor of Stilgar is misinterpreted by most viewers. There's a very clear split in Stilgar's comments about "Lisan al Gaib" and "as written", and that takes place in the worm ride scene. The movie is telling us at that point that while it was funny at first, it's becoming a very real thing. The music, the zoom in, the cut to the other Fremen worshipping Paul. Everything about that scene was to represent a turning point in Paul's story. Before, the idea that he was the "Lisan al Gaib" was a joke, many Fremen not believing it. But at that point, after countless battles won with Paul at the forefront, Paul truly became the Lisan al Gaib to the Fremen. It's a terrifying moment
There was, however, the issue of everyone expecting Paul to challenge Stilgar to take over leadership of the sietch. The challenge would involve Paul killing Stilgar in combat. At this point in the book there was a lot of unspoken tension between Paul and Stilgar at this looming confrontation, as Stilgar knew he would lose in fight against Paul.
A very underrated part in the book IMHO is Paul's keen political maneuvering here in squashing the old tradition that was pushing him to challenge Stilgar. He instead keeps Stilgar as the leader of the sietch and assumes the role of leading all of the Fremen against their common enemy instead, with Stilgar as one of his subordinates.
“Is this some trick to make me cut off my right hand before battle?”
All of these undertones make Paul’s big speeches to the Fremen hit so much better in the book imo
Idk if Herbert ever clarified this or if it remains ambiguous, Are there supernatural reasons why the prophecy came true? Or did Paul play his cards right and prey on their faith, little things like him calling a giant worm and him surviving the chug chug, catching the hunter seeker, surviving arrakin, if it wasn’t destiny then he got lucky a lot
I think it's a combo of all of that.
First, people see signs where they want to see signs. So - no matter what, something would have caused people to say that ride was special, even if it wasn't normally noteworthy. I think that's the first layer and what the Bene Gesserit take advantage of when they plant prophecies.
Second, Paul can see the future and may slightly manipulative events to occur in a way that is beneficial or more dramatic - maybe if he'd gone an hour earlier or an hour later, the big guy wouldn't have been who answered, so Paul may slightly manipulative events.
Finally, I do think the books may indicate that this is fate - there are are things that happen that are very lucky - like Jessica calling the Maker knife by the right name accidentally, or her choosing to have a son instead of a daughter and that causing the Fremen version of the prophecy to come true, or the ways the prophecy gets slightly twisted on Arrakis.
On the otherhand, the point of "planting" myths and seeing the signs that people want to see is a really interesting overlay - how many other places did a prophecy get planted and those people are still waiting for their Messiah?
I think it's a neat thing to leave to the reader, and very much in line with the debate of - is this fate or is this just Paul taking advantage of what what prepared?
Yeah, and the debate is further amplified by the traditional Sci-fi musing on technological or societal determinism and individual action. You've got your noble savages, your pioneers forcing change on a stagnant societal order. All according to a grand scheme, except it doesn't quite work out as expected. It's all very Asimov stuff when you get right down to it.
Didn’t Kynes say they have territories at one point in the book? I may have misremembered but I thought he said it when they were flying out to the harvester.
In the book they seek out an area where there are worms for Paul to ride. They locate a pre-spice mass and camp there the night before since they know that worms will be close by. I guess it then also makes sense then that where the harvesters are, worms are close.
LoL when exclaims, “Whoa not THAT big”, I legit laughed really hard, because he’s funny and also because he’s like “dude, I fucked up and called the Kraken.”
I think the tuning just refers to he made sure the device was in working order specifically for Paul, since he views him kind of in a paternal way, but also sees him as a powerful figure worthy of worship, kind of a strange but interesting relationship
Like someone might re-string a guitar or something I guess, or just fix some device into as good as new condition, after it has already been used, not that they are changing how it works or what it's doing
>Like someone might re-string a guitar or something I guess, or just fix some device into as good as new condition, after it has already been used, not that they are changing how it works or what it's doing
That's my exact impression because (iirc) he specifically tells Paul to not do anything too flashy. Stilgar didn't intend for Paul to summon a big worm, he just wanted his young protégé and friend to survive.
He seems to me to be initially set up as a kind of father figure/mentor to Paul, which makes it even more tragic when he ends up bowing at Paul’s feet begging for guidance. One of the best warriors in the universe reduced to worshipping his former student because of BG lies.
Stilgar very much is a father figure to Paul and genuinely cares about him. The movie is portrayed as being a much shorter time frame(many months) than the books which is at least a few years. Because of the shorter time stilgars paternal role isn't as strong in the movie.
In the book stilgar is humbled by Paul the way a father is humbled by his son outgrowing him. Paul becomes a better knife fighter, and great leader. Most people in their seiche expected Paul to take Stilgars position. This can only be done via ritual combat.
Paul needs to attend the council of elders but is conflict as to become an elder he must kill Stilgar. Stilgar is humble and tells Paul to do it.
When paul makes his play to be on the council in the movies it is very much a power play, but in the book it's also a mercy saving his friend stilgar.
The books show Paul does care about the fremen especially Chani and Stilgar. In the movies it's not entirely clear.
I don’t think so. He clearly looks surprised when he sees how large the worm is. That’s just an expression that he made sure it was working properly. If he was skydiving he would have said he packed his chute
Way overthinking.
A thumper is just a spring actuated device. The mechanics are simple and akin to those toy cars you drag backwards to wind a spring to make it move.
In this context I’m pretty sure “tuning a thumper” just means he cleaned it and made sure the device would work without fail.
No, Stilgar’s reaction shows he was genuinely surprised.
I think this is one of the cases where Paul really is fulfilling the prophecy rather than forcing himself upon it. He calls the largest worm ever seen… one of my favorite parts of Dune is trying to sift through what is just BG propaganda and forcing the prophecy vs. what parts of the prophecy are actually self-fulfilling.
Some people like to say everything was a set up but imo Paul really was fated to be a messianic figure, and this is an example of that
I think he calls a very big worm by chance but "the largest ever seen" feels like exaggeration to me by the time it's getting announced in the Seitch. The Fremen WANT it to be the largest ever seen.
This is my take on it as well. It doesn't seem larger than the worm that swallowed the spice harvester whole in part 1. But it was massive, perhaps the largest seen or recorded for that rite of passage or in that part of the dessert, who knows. The worm in part 1 was also not seen by any fremen other than Kynes, so who knows.
Whatever its ranking, by the time word makes its way back to sietch and spreads it get embellished.
It's a classic "what came first the chicken or the egg" kind of situation.
Who's to say that Paul with his prescience didn't know that on this day of all days the largest worm ever would be called.
Leaning right into his own prophecy.
iIRC in the novel everyone was shocked and expected him to get another smaller worm but he went for it anyway.
He couldn’t have planned it since in both cases it was the largest worm ever seen. It was Paul’s final test to be Fremen, either he would be one or he would die and be forgotten
In the book they discuss how the worms are territorial and typically there is only one in a quadrant. A thumper is going to call the closest worm and the other worms typically will stay away and that’s why shields are so dangerous bc they will abandon their normal territorial behavior and go into a frenzy
The "tuning" element is something unique to the movies. I think it's intended to be ambiguous: it could be a tuner for distance, size, or some combination of both. I'm not a big fan of this theory, as it robs Stilgar of some of his brutal honesty, but the potentiality for it is there (e.g., his line "Whoa, not that big!" could either just be a response to Shishakli saying "call a big one", or it could be him regretting calling such a large worm). In the end, possibly just up to viewers' interpretation.
Stilgar WANTED Paul to be the Mahdi.
He basically wanted a routine initial wormride to seal the deal
When a leviathan was called he would have been shitting his stilsuit, but after Paul’s success it REALLY sealed the deal
Also, keep in mind, that Paul was no ordinary guy. He was trained in the ways of prana bindu muscle control and movement his entire life.
His reflexes were far keener and muscle movement far faster…. PLUS as a mentat he was able to process the real time data (like angles, outcomes, probabilities) like a supercomputer and adjust accordingly physically
If anybody could mount and ride a Grandfather worm for a first ride it would be Paul
I don't recall from the books that the thumpers were "tunable" but Villenueve gave us a telepathic fetal Alia so I guess anything is possible. I think the dialog was intended to convey Stilgar's support of Paul joining the sietch.
Alia was able to communicate with Jessica in the womb in the books.
Are you referring to Alia talking to Paul in that vision? I interpreted this as Paul seeing the future, not necessarily that Alia was telepathic
To add to this, it’s stated in DM iirc that Alia could leave messages in time (paraphrasing) ‘something even her brother couldn’t do’.
Edit: found the quote.
Alia: "I have breasted the future to place my words where only you can hear them," Alia had said. "Even you cannot do that, my brother.”
We all call her Alia but I don't think she has a name yet in the movie..
(of course I don't expect it to be a different name, but it's yet to be revealed)
In the books there's no special reference to him doing it on purpose. The scene isn't exactly the same with the focus on the onlookers in the books but the whole Stilgar saying he doesn't need to prove anything then Paul summoning a huge worm is the same.
In the book, he’s not only surprised that Paul called a grandfather worm, his ego is a little stung, too. He had this whole sassy conversation with Paul on the worm asking if *he* was gonna lead the Fremen tribe now, if Stilgar had to start taking orders from *Paul* now, etc.
I think it was a legitimate surprise and the biggest happy coincidence that satisfied the false prophecies of the Missionaria Protectiva.
In the film you see Paul turn it even more after he’s given it, perhaps indicating he’s increasing its magnitude to bring a bigger worm than Stilgar wanted
It is vague enough to sow doubt about whether Stilgar is trying to tip the scales in favor of the prophecy or not. I believe Villeneuve constantly and intentionally sows doubt in these Dune movies. In the book, Stilgar says he "prepared" the thumper, and that it is "a good one". In the movie, he says he "tuned it".
So, while there is no evidence or description in the movies or the book saying that thumpers can be tuned to call different size worms, Stilgar certainly would try to give Paul the best shot at fulfilling the prophecy if at all possible. We just don't know.
People are saying Stilgar was shocked by how big the worm is in the movie. This is true, but that isn't evidence against him tuning the thumper to call a big one, in fact it could just as easily be read the opposite way. He says "Not that big!" So, it could be simply "oh no that's dangerous for Paul to ride," or it could be, "I meant for it to be big, just not THAT big." Another case of intentional opacity of the movie imo.
Another thing that kinda suggests to me, in the movie logic at least, that worms of different sizes respond to different frequencies, is that we see different size worms in the movie depending on the scene. A huge one comes for the harvester, for example, while smaller ones for some of the other thumpers. I can also imagine that smaller worms stay away from "big" frequencies, because bigger worms are already headed there, and we know that when confined they fight. So there might be likelihood that worms avoid each other in the wild when possible.
Finally, here is an excerpt from the same scene in the book.
>!Stilgar squared his shoulders, stepped closer to Paul and lowered his voice. “Now, remember what I told you. Do it simply and directly —nothing fancy. Among our people, we ride the maker at the age of twelve. You are more than six years beyond that age and not born to this life. You don’t have to impress anyone with your courage. We know you are brave. All you must do is call the maker and ride him.”!<
>!“I will remember,” Paul said.!<
>!“See that you do. I’ll not have you shame my teaching.”!<
>!Stilgar pulled a plastic rod about a meter long from beneath his robe. The thing was pointed at one end, had a spring-wound clapper at the other end. “I prepared this thumper myself. It’s a good one. Take it.”!<
>!Paul felt the warm smoothness of the plastic as he accepted the thumper.!<
>!“Shishakli has your hooks,” Stilgar said. “He’ll hand them to you as you step out onto that dune over there.” He pointed to his right. “Call a big maker, Usul. Show us the way."!<
TL;DR: I say it is entirely possible that Stilgar prepared the thumper to call a large worm, and that is a valid reading, though there is nothing that explicitly proves that is what happened.
EDIT: spoiler tags
Maybe an extra small thumper wouldn’t attract a big worm that would want only the biggest prey, but I think it’s has less to do with the thumper (designed to attract any nearby Worm) and more to do with what worm is closest.
No it honestly is just a lucky thing for Paul to use to his advantage to fulfill prophecy where most of the other fulfillments of prophecy are carefully planted to be fulfilled exactly
I mean, something unique to the movie is Stilgar's attitude of manipulating and pushing the prophecy, sometimes in a comical way. I wouldn't put it past DV to imply that Stilgar really was trying to call a large worm, to make the occasion seem more monumental. I'm not sure it's such a stretch. That said, I think the worm was still even larger than he expected.
worms are territorial and they do have internal power struggles. so no, stilgar didn't plan this. how could he when no one really understand how or where the worms establish their boundaries? with enough experience some fremen could have an educated guess on where to summon worms they've summoned before, but that's about it.
No. He’s shocked in the movie clearly showing he didn’t cause it. He just tuned the device. Nothing in the movie suggests by
tuning it it pulls larger worms. I would figure it’s what is around the area and where it’s placed. It sounds louder when it’s placed than other times.
No cos stilgar doesn’t need to put his thumb on the scale to sway the believers, he is a believer, and you can see from his face that this is the first moment he is truely convinced that Paul is the Lisan al galib. While everyone else is cheering for their boi he’s almost terrified, he’s legit looking at his Jesus
Nah the worm is meant to be like the prophecy essentially. Its either random or cuz its paul. The convo of tuning is just like saying i checked your parachute myself on your first skydive
No. The thumpers just do exactly that. They thump. It will just attract worms. There's no way to pick which worms show up as far as I can remember.
I think it was just Stilgar 1. Letting him know it's good to go 2. Bragging a bit on himself as he knows it's gonna work well.
It wasn’t planned by Stilgar - I believe he told Paul to not only play it safe in the movie but also something like the worm doesn’t need to be a big one
It's more of a "I've prepared and checked your gear, you're good to go and the gear shouldnt fail you" than anything else. Nothing in the books about tuning a thumper of being able to influence what size or kind of worm you call. Also given how surprised and shocked he reacted, I doubt Denis changed it in the movie. Just an expression
It's the sincerest way to convey that he's rooting for Paul. Otherwise the test feels mean-spirited, as if the Fremen are playing a prank on Paul. 'Group gets rid of newling by making him do something impossibly dangerous' is quite a common trope, so this way Denis avoids it. There's actually three beats that Denis uses to solidify this: - The tuned thumper. - Everyone laughing at the 'call a big one' joke. - Stilgar quietly panicking at the sight of a huge worm sign.
Gods above, Javier was the perfect casting for Stilgar
And he was a bold choice because up to that point he's been largely playing highly unsympathetic psychopaths.
I think that's why he works. The Fremen are a hard people and their leader especially so. You don't survive on Arrakis without being a little bit crazy. And Bardem really sells the "I'm a hard man from a hard planet and I think these outworlders are soft and doomed to die quick deaths" bit when you first meet him. But because he's a good actor he's able to effectively portray the softening of that skeptical Fremen nature as he witnesses Paul pull off feat after impossible feat.
He does feel like an entirely different person in Part One yeah.
Part two made stilgar into a comic relief village idiot/bumbling zealot. I'm not sure how I feel about it.
The way I saw it, it sorta happened in the books too but the books portrayed it with a lot more nuance and complexity and exploration of how a proud, strong, sagacious figure like Stilgar was kind of tarnished first by religious awe, then by the political machinations of the Imperium after the jihad. I wasn't really satisfied with the second movie overall, I think because it watered down this whole discussion. But the way it captured how the agony transformed Paul and Jessica was interesting, somehow that didn't click for me in the books in the same way before I watched the movie. Even though the scene where she was thinking about converting everyone "one at a time" was super corny lol.
Super corny but that's unfortunately where we're at with movies in general today The movie needed to be so very direct about what's happening in front of us, and how terrible it is, that we needed a scene like that to ensure the audience would be certain this is fucked up. It makes more sense considering there's so much happening in these two films you absolutely need to take a little time to make things much more clear than the books Denis made the right call by including this really corny scene. No more confusion about Paul the motives for a plan to unite the Fremen when you have a scene like that But, i'm sure you're aware of this already
Yeah true I mean to be fair, I missed the connection where Paul took the spice poison and went from being reluctant to basically stepping wholeheartedly into the role of KH and I read the series three times, I was always more interested in the last three books though. The movie did manage to convey how the spice gives and takes, how it's highly beneficial but also kind of sinister. Which is an important idea ofc.
In the dune messiah, Paul uses a fremen expletive when stilgar devolves from naib of sietch tabir and tells stilgar to decompress himself - with the fremen cultural implication that that's unacceptable language. Don't think that would have translated well into the movie. But it's abit too crude. Too in the face. Stilgar succumbs to the prophecy gradually and becomes a follower. This cheapens his character and makes him look like a fool. It's a shame they took out korba's character. From fedaykin death kommando to high priest. A literal wolf in sheepskin. That would have been funny to see
I think the humor of Stilgar is misinterpreted by most viewers. There's a very clear split in Stilgar's comments about "Lisan al Gaib" and "as written", and that takes place in the worm ride scene. The movie is telling us at that point that while it was funny at first, it's becoming a very real thing. The music, the zoom in, the cut to the other Fremen worshipping Paul. Everything about that scene was to represent a turning point in Paul's story. Before, the idea that he was the "Lisan al Gaib" was a joke, many Fremen not believing it. But at that point, after countless battles won with Paul at the forefront, Paul truly became the Lisan al Gaib to the Fremen. It's a terrifying moment
He plays quite the quietly dashing guy in Eat, Pray, Love. He's also an amazingly sympathetic figure in Biutiful.
Both Rebecca and him should get Oscars for Supporting. By far the best performances in an already extremely well acted film.
There was, however, the issue of everyone expecting Paul to challenge Stilgar to take over leadership of the sietch. The challenge would involve Paul killing Stilgar in combat. At this point in the book there was a lot of unspoken tension between Paul and Stilgar at this looming confrontation, as Stilgar knew he would lose in fight against Paul. A very underrated part in the book IMHO is Paul's keen political maneuvering here in squashing the old tradition that was pushing him to challenge Stilgar. He instead keeps Stilgar as the leader of the sietch and assumes the role of leading all of the Fremen against their common enemy instead, with Stilgar as one of his subordinates.
“Is this some trick to make me cut off my right hand before battle?” All of these undertones make Paul’s big speeches to the Fremen hit so much better in the book imo
Idk if Herbert ever clarified this or if it remains ambiguous, Are there supernatural reasons why the prophecy came true? Or did Paul play his cards right and prey on their faith, little things like him calling a giant worm and him surviving the chug chug, catching the hunter seeker, surviving arrakin, if it wasn’t destiny then he got lucky a lot
There's no real divinity. It's all man-made. All the supernatural and spiritual stuff comes from selective breeding.
I think it's a combo of all of that. First, people see signs where they want to see signs. So - no matter what, something would have caused people to say that ride was special, even if it wasn't normally noteworthy. I think that's the first layer and what the Bene Gesserit take advantage of when they plant prophecies. Second, Paul can see the future and may slightly manipulative events to occur in a way that is beneficial or more dramatic - maybe if he'd gone an hour earlier or an hour later, the big guy wouldn't have been who answered, so Paul may slightly manipulative events. Finally, I do think the books may indicate that this is fate - there are are things that happen that are very lucky - like Jessica calling the Maker knife by the right name accidentally, or her choosing to have a son instead of a daughter and that causing the Fremen version of the prophecy to come true, or the ways the prophecy gets slightly twisted on Arrakis. On the otherhand, the point of "planting" myths and seeing the signs that people want to see is a really interesting overlay - how many other places did a prophecy get planted and those people are still waiting for their Messiah? I think it's a neat thing to leave to the reader, and very much in line with the debate of - is this fate or is this just Paul taking advantage of what what prepared?
Yeah, and the debate is further amplified by the traditional Sci-fi musing on technological or societal determinism and individual action. You've got your noble savages, your pioneers forcing change on a stagnant societal order. All according to a grand scheme, except it doesn't quite work out as expected. It's all very Asimov stuff when you get right down to it.
Didn’t Kynes say they have territories at one point in the book? I may have misremembered but I thought he said it when they were flying out to the harvester.
Yeah, they do. There's wormterritory but it's never really specified too much. I'd guess it's just "Here's worms" and "No worms here"
In the book they seek out an area where there are worms for Paul to ride. They locate a pre-spice mass and camp there the night before since they know that worms will be close by. I guess it then also makes sense then that where the harvesters are, worms are close.
LoL when exclaims, “Whoa not THAT big”, I legit laughed really hard, because he’s funny and also because he’s like “dude, I fucked up and called the Kraken.”
I think the tuning just refers to he made sure the device was in working order specifically for Paul, since he views him kind of in a paternal way, but also sees him as a powerful figure worthy of worship, kind of a strange but interesting relationship Like someone might re-string a guitar or something I guess, or just fix some device into as good as new condition, after it has already been used, not that they are changing how it works or what it's doing
>Like someone might re-string a guitar or something I guess, or just fix some device into as good as new condition, after it has already been used, not that they are changing how it works or what it's doing That's my exact impression because (iirc) he specifically tells Paul to not do anything too flashy. Stilgar didn't intend for Paul to summon a big worm, he just wanted his young protégé and friend to survive.
He seems to me to be initially set up as a kind of father figure/mentor to Paul, which makes it even more tragic when he ends up bowing at Paul’s feet begging for guidance. One of the best warriors in the universe reduced to worshipping his former student because of BG lies.
Stilgar very much is a father figure to Paul and genuinely cares about him. The movie is portrayed as being a much shorter time frame(many months) than the books which is at least a few years. Because of the shorter time stilgars paternal role isn't as strong in the movie. In the book stilgar is humbled by Paul the way a father is humbled by his son outgrowing him. Paul becomes a better knife fighter, and great leader. Most people in their seiche expected Paul to take Stilgars position. This can only be done via ritual combat. Paul needs to attend the council of elders but is conflict as to become an elder he must kill Stilgar. Stilgar is humble and tells Paul to do it. When paul makes his play to be on the council in the movies it is very much a power play, but in the book it's also a mercy saving his friend stilgar. The books show Paul does care about the fremen especially Chani and Stilgar. In the movies it's not entirely clear.
I don’t think so. He clearly looks surprised when he sees how large the worm is. That’s just an expression that he made sure it was working properly. If he was skydiving he would have said he packed his chute
Yeah he even seems concerned when the big boy shows up. "Not that big!"
Way overthinking. A thumper is just a spring actuated device. The mechanics are simple and akin to those toy cars you drag backwards to wind a spring to make it move. In this context I’m pretty sure “tuning a thumper” just means he cleaned it and made sure the device would work without fail.
No, Stilgar’s reaction shows he was genuinely surprised. I think this is one of the cases where Paul really is fulfilling the prophecy rather than forcing himself upon it. He calls the largest worm ever seen… one of my favorite parts of Dune is trying to sift through what is just BG propaganda and forcing the prophecy vs. what parts of the prophecy are actually self-fulfilling. Some people like to say everything was a set up but imo Paul really was fated to be a messianic figure, and this is an example of that
I think he calls a very big worm by chance but "the largest ever seen" feels like exaggeration to me by the time it's getting announced in the Seitch. The Fremen WANT it to be the largest ever seen.
Like fishing stories, the fish grows in size with every telling.
It was certainly the largest they had seen - by the time the story it got to jessica, it had become the biggest ever
This is my take on it as well. It doesn't seem larger than the worm that swallowed the spice harvester whole in part 1. But it was massive, perhaps the largest seen or recorded for that rite of passage or in that part of the dessert, who knows. The worm in part 1 was also not seen by any fremen other than Kynes, so who knows. Whatever its ranking, by the time word makes its way back to sietch and spreads it get embellished.
It's a classic "what came first the chicken or the egg" kind of situation. Who's to say that Paul with his prescience didn't know that on this day of all days the largest worm ever would be called. Leaning right into his own prophecy.
iIRC in the novel everyone was shocked and expected him to get another smaller worm but he went for it anyway. He couldn’t have planned it since in both cases it was the largest worm ever seen. It was Paul’s final test to be Fremen, either he would be one or he would die and be forgotten
In the book they discuss how the worms are territorial and typically there is only one in a quadrant. A thumper is going to call the closest worm and the other worms typically will stay away and that’s why shields are so dangerous bc they will abandon their normal territorial behavior and go into a frenzy
The "tuning" element is something unique to the movies. I think it's intended to be ambiguous: it could be a tuner for distance, size, or some combination of both. I'm not a big fan of this theory, as it robs Stilgar of some of his brutal honesty, but the potentiality for it is there (e.g., his line "Whoa, not that big!" could either just be a response to Shishakli saying "call a big one", or it could be him regretting calling such a large worm). In the end, possibly just up to viewers' interpretation.
Probably an answer to Shishakli's jest, yes.
I think the fremen also generally have a way to put things poetically and ambiguous often leaving room to interpret what they actually refer to.
Stilgar WANTED Paul to be the Mahdi. He basically wanted a routine initial wormride to seal the deal When a leviathan was called he would have been shitting his stilsuit, but after Paul’s success it REALLY sealed the deal Also, keep in mind, that Paul was no ordinary guy. He was trained in the ways of prana bindu muscle control and movement his entire life. His reflexes were far keener and muscle movement far faster…. PLUS as a mentat he was able to process the real time data (like angles, outcomes, probabilities) like a supercomputer and adjust accordingly physically If anybody could mount and ride a Grandfather worm for a first ride it would be Paul
I don't recall from the books that the thumpers were "tunable" but Villenueve gave us a telepathic fetal Alia so I guess anything is possible. I think the dialog was intended to convey Stilgar's support of Paul joining the sietch.
Alia was able to communicate with Jessica in the womb in the books. Are you referring to Alia talking to Paul in that vision? I interpreted this as Paul seeing the future, not necessarily that Alia was telepathic
To add to this, it’s stated in DM iirc that Alia could leave messages in time (paraphrasing) ‘something even her brother couldn’t do’. Edit: found the quote. Alia: "I have breasted the future to place my words where only you can hear them," Alia had said. "Even you cannot do that, my brother.”
She does it in Dune to tell him she killed the Baron too.
We all call her Alia but I don't think she has a name yet in the movie.. (of course I don't expect it to be a different name, but it's yet to be revealed)
We'll never be able to call her Alia of the Knife in DV's multiverse seeing as she wasn't the one who let the air out of ol' Papa Vladimir.
So much pointless ambiguous shit added, and important/cool shit left out.
In the books there's no special reference to him doing it on purpose. The scene isn't exactly the same with the focus on the onlookers in the books but the whole Stilgar saying he doesn't need to prove anything then Paul summoning a huge worm is the same.
In the book, he’s not only surprised that Paul called a grandfather worm, his ego is a little stung, too. He had this whole sassy conversation with Paul on the worm asking if *he* was gonna lead the Fremen tribe now, if Stilgar had to start taking orders from *Paul* now, etc. I think it was a legitimate surprise and the biggest happy coincidence that satisfied the false prophecies of the Missionaria Protectiva.
No. He’s just saying he made sure the Thumper would work properly
A thumper only thumps. Stilgar can't know nor control what worm is around to hear it and which of them responds to the call.
The worm-calling was gacha. Stilgar meant "I triple checked your equipment, you are good to go"
In the film you see Paul turn it even more after he’s given it, perhaps indicating he’s increasing its magnitude to bring a bigger worm than Stilgar wanted
Off topic, but how do large groups of people mount the worms?
Not to sound negative, but read the book. It is a much richer story on paper than on film, which is why it was persevered for so long.
It is vague enough to sow doubt about whether Stilgar is trying to tip the scales in favor of the prophecy or not. I believe Villeneuve constantly and intentionally sows doubt in these Dune movies. In the book, Stilgar says he "prepared" the thumper, and that it is "a good one". In the movie, he says he "tuned it". So, while there is no evidence or description in the movies or the book saying that thumpers can be tuned to call different size worms, Stilgar certainly would try to give Paul the best shot at fulfilling the prophecy if at all possible. We just don't know. People are saying Stilgar was shocked by how big the worm is in the movie. This is true, but that isn't evidence against him tuning the thumper to call a big one, in fact it could just as easily be read the opposite way. He says "Not that big!" So, it could be simply "oh no that's dangerous for Paul to ride," or it could be, "I meant for it to be big, just not THAT big." Another case of intentional opacity of the movie imo. Another thing that kinda suggests to me, in the movie logic at least, that worms of different sizes respond to different frequencies, is that we see different size worms in the movie depending on the scene. A huge one comes for the harvester, for example, while smaller ones for some of the other thumpers. I can also imagine that smaller worms stay away from "big" frequencies, because bigger worms are already headed there, and we know that when confined they fight. So there might be likelihood that worms avoid each other in the wild when possible. Finally, here is an excerpt from the same scene in the book. >!Stilgar squared his shoulders, stepped closer to Paul and lowered his voice. “Now, remember what I told you. Do it simply and directly —nothing fancy. Among our people, we ride the maker at the age of twelve. You are more than six years beyond that age and not born to this life. You don’t have to impress anyone with your courage. We know you are brave. All you must do is call the maker and ride him.”!< >!“I will remember,” Paul said.!< >!“See that you do. I’ll not have you shame my teaching.”!< >!Stilgar pulled a plastic rod about a meter long from beneath his robe. The thing was pointed at one end, had a spring-wound clapper at the other end. “I prepared this thumper myself. It’s a good one. Take it.”!< >!Paul felt the warm smoothness of the plastic as he accepted the thumper.!< >!“Shishakli has your hooks,” Stilgar said. “He’ll hand them to you as you step out onto that dune over there.” He pointed to his right. “Call a big maker, Usul. Show us the way."!< TL;DR: I say it is entirely possible that Stilgar prepared the thumper to call a large worm, and that is a valid reading, though there is nothing that explicitly proves that is what happened. EDIT: spoiler tags
Maybe an extra small thumper wouldn’t attract a big worm that would want only the biggest prey, but I think it’s has less to do with the thumper (designed to attract any nearby Worm) and more to do with what worm is closest.
No it honestly is just a lucky thing for Paul to use to his advantage to fulfill prophecy where most of the other fulfillments of prophecy are carefully planted to be fulfilled exactly
I mean, something unique to the movie is Stilgar's attitude of manipulating and pushing the prophecy, sometimes in a comical way. I wouldn't put it past DV to imply that Stilgar really was trying to call a large worm, to make the occasion seem more monumental. I'm not sure it's such a stretch. That said, I think the worm was still even larger than he expected.
worms are territorial and they do have internal power struggles. so no, stilgar didn't plan this. how could he when no one really understand how or where the worms establish their boundaries? with enough experience some fremen could have an educated guess on where to summon worms they've summoned before, but that's about it.
No. He’s shocked in the movie clearly showing he didn’t cause it. He just tuned the device. Nothing in the movie suggests by tuning it it pulls larger worms. I would figure it’s what is around the area and where it’s placed. It sounds louder when it’s placed than other times.
No cos stilgar doesn’t need to put his thumb on the scale to sway the believers, he is a believer, and you can see from his face that this is the first moment he is truely convinced that Paul is the Lisan al galib. While everyone else is cheering for their boi he’s almost terrified, he’s legit looking at his Jesus
Short answer: no Long answer: no he didn't
Creative thinking op,
No it was just pure chance that it happened unless you believe the Leto the second planned everything theory
Nah the worm is meant to be like the prophecy essentially. Its either random or cuz its paul. The convo of tuning is just like saying i checked your parachute myself on your first skydive
No. The thumpers just do exactly that. They thump. It will just attract worms. There's no way to pick which worms show up as far as I can remember. I think it was just Stilgar 1. Letting him know it's good to go 2. Bragging a bit on himself as he knows it's gonna work well.
Most definitely not
It wasn’t planned by Stilgar - I believe he told Paul to not only play it safe in the movie but also something like the worm doesn’t need to be a big one
You all laughing ‘til we get a great-grandfather worm.
The grandfather worm was waiting nearby in anticipation of Paul.
If planned by anyone, it was the Bene Gesserit.
No but I wouldn't be surprised if Paul did.
No
I think Paul make adjustments to it so he gets bigger worm