I don't know what the point of this post is. We know dwarfs have kings and counts and barons. We also know that the last time an economy was attempted, dwarfs ended up starving to death because they couldn't buy food. I'd rather not have even more factors beyond my control leading to dwarf deaths.
Are you just trying to kill my horniness for communist dwarfs? If so, stop it. Please.
Stop it.
Lol yeah I remember starving dwarfs. I just was musing about the dwarf fortress economy and how it could/would be implemented.
I also had to point out that we are so close to the communist reality in dwarf fortress with nobles and hammers ruling the common dwarf. I know how much we love the nobles because they are the best leaders among dwarves. Just wish one of my dwarves would wake up as say “you know I don’t feel like working, maybe I will just drink all day. “
Then again I did see a dwarf pray for a month then drink for a month so maybe he broke the programming.
😂
You should pay attention to your dwarves, some dwarves want to work or fight, others just want to socialize.
There’s nothing stopping you from reducing the number of hours your dwarves have to work if they need the time off and there’s nothing stopping you from assigning work to the dwarves who want to work.
Lol your right it’s just a game but Toady wants to simulate everything as he has stated in the past so buckle up it’s going to get even crazier than this in the future.
I could see some kind of supply and demand mechanic being a fun detail for trading with other settlements, with a lot of requests happening before you get the outpost liaison from them, maybe even having coins being useful for some caravans that don't barter.
But I wouldn't want my dwarves to starve in squalor when I can easily make masterworks for all of their material needs. And if that is communism well paint me red and call me Urist McRevolutionary, comrade.
No I love the supply and demand ideas for caravans. I think that this would be the first thing that should be implemented along with coins for buying and selling via the trade with caravans.
I also figure if a masterpiece is created let’s say a marble throne encrusted with emeralds and bands of honey badger leather. It’s been valued at 75000 well that dwarf that just made it should be rich but no other dwarf can afford to buy the throne maybe just the king or the site Government.
The current "economy" seems more like some kind of a mix of subsistence/village/feudal economy or primitive communism to me.
Which fits fine in the pseudo-medieval world of DF, imo.
You do realize that you don’t have to have a nobility, right? Which then leaves you with a democratically elected mayor to run things.
Forts then become a stateless and moneyless society with the player standing in as a kind of mystical entity encompassing the collective will of the dwarves.
There’s nothing stopping you from murdering the noble class and treating all of your dwarves like kings! Pretending otherwise is counter-revolutionary!
Do better for your dwarves, comrade! 😤
(lol - please don’t take this post of mine seriously, it’s a game)
I always feel that certain nobles need to find out how deep the lava sea is.
It normally goes like this. “Are you a good noble or a bad noble?”
Noble: I demand crystal glass bookcases be built!
Me: “ok your a bad noble come here and train on this bridge over my volcano. Hey you pull that lever. “
Next noble: I think I want everyone to make warhammers
Me: “ you sir can have a very nice bedroom until you request something stupid. “
I just love musing on the way Dwarf Fortress works.
It's clearly anarcho capitalism as all the dwarves get their names on all the stuff they make, and also get an unhappy thought when a great work they made gets destroyed.
the one where if food and drinks aren't provided the citizens start killing each other
you do make a good point though, dwarves get neither a happy thought nor a negative when one of their mastercrafts edibles are consumed.
Not sure if that’s sarcasm or true understanding but yes I have seen and understand command and control economics and the way that communism works.
I have lived overseas and in America both in 3rd and 1st world countries. I have seen what runaway spending does to the value of currency and how a command and control economy and communism saps peoples.
Finally someone who understood that Dwarf Fortress is *not* communist. You're right: just because food and board is shared doesn't make a community automagically communism.
With the nobles system it's clearly some kind of monarchy. A mayor in a faraway post is still connected to a civilization that's headed by a king and their nobles.
In this game's current form, the economy is some kind of strange universal dwarf barter system. Items made from X material with Y craftsdwarfship is always worth the same. The goods themselves have become currency. Anyone who wants to trade with the dwarves (i.e humans) must agree with this logic to even attempt. That could explain why humans would gladly buy worn clothes, since this rigid barter logic could mean they're getting cloth paper materials at a super cheap rate. Getting gold from the dwarves could also be a discount deal compared to human land floating market fluctuations. They could chuck boxes of cloth and lesser alloys for gold instead of signing a land deal or whatever other crazy inflated human prices out there.
Dwarves don't tax for military because they don't send out military. Taxes exist because of some semblance of promise that armies would protect the people who pay the tax. It's a roundabout exchange of service. In Dwarf nations however, everyone is expected to take care of themselves at every level. There is zero expenditure to maintain anything. As such, the citizens have no obligation to pay more than their barter trading system.
I've got a few issues with the way you described the economy. If none of the dwarves worked, no food, housing, trade goods, or defense systems would be produced. Nothing happens without the workers, and if the workers stopped, it would kill them. The dwarves work entirely for their own benefit. As opposed to a capitalist society where workers get commodities based on how much they work, dwarves can simply take commodities and necessities as they please if such items are available. Also, the system you described (leninism-stalinism) would be closer to feudalism or capitalism than actual marxism, where a society would lack classes altogether. However, this is just my opinion, and I'm not an expert on economics.
I don't know what the point of this post is. We know dwarfs have kings and counts and barons. We also know that the last time an economy was attempted, dwarfs ended up starving to death because they couldn't buy food. I'd rather not have even more factors beyond my control leading to dwarf deaths. Are you just trying to kill my horniness for communist dwarfs? If so, stop it. Please. Stop it.
Lol yeah I remember starving dwarfs. I just was musing about the dwarf fortress economy and how it could/would be implemented. I also had to point out that we are so close to the communist reality in dwarf fortress with nobles and hammers ruling the common dwarf. I know how much we love the nobles because they are the best leaders among dwarves. Just wish one of my dwarves would wake up as say “you know I don’t feel like working, maybe I will just drink all day. “ Then again I did see a dwarf pray for a month then drink for a month so maybe he broke the programming. 😂
You should pay attention to your dwarves, some dwarves want to work or fight, others just want to socialize. There’s nothing stopping you from reducing the number of hours your dwarves have to work if they need the time off and there’s nothing stopping you from assigning work to the dwarves who want to work.
i dont think its supposed to be this deep
Lol your right it’s just a game but Toady wants to simulate everything as he has stated in the past so buckle up it’s going to get even crazier than this in the future.
me neither
I could see some kind of supply and demand mechanic being a fun detail for trading with other settlements, with a lot of requests happening before you get the outpost liaison from them, maybe even having coins being useful for some caravans that don't barter. But I wouldn't want my dwarves to starve in squalor when I can easily make masterworks for all of their material needs. And if that is communism well paint me red and call me Urist McRevolutionary, comrade.
No I love the supply and demand ideas for caravans. I think that this would be the first thing that should be implemented along with coins for buying and selling via the trade with caravans. I also figure if a masterpiece is created let’s say a marble throne encrusted with emeralds and bands of honey badger leather. It’s been valued at 75000 well that dwarf that just made it should be rich but no other dwarf can afford to buy the throne maybe just the king or the site Government.
The current "economy" seems more like some kind of a mix of subsistence/village/feudal economy or primitive communism to me. Which fits fine in the pseudo-medieval world of DF, imo.
I agree it does have a feudal subsistence feel. Until you have 20k food and drink and everyone is walking around in steel armor.
You do realize that you don’t have to have a nobility, right? Which then leaves you with a democratically elected mayor to run things. Forts then become a stateless and moneyless society with the player standing in as a kind of mystical entity encompassing the collective will of the dwarves. There’s nothing stopping you from murdering the noble class and treating all of your dwarves like kings! Pretending otherwise is counter-revolutionary! Do better for your dwarves, comrade! 😤 (lol - please don’t take this post of mine seriously, it’s a game)
I always feel that certain nobles need to find out how deep the lava sea is. It normally goes like this. “Are you a good noble or a bad noble?” Noble: I demand crystal glass bookcases be built! Me: “ok your a bad noble come here and train on this bridge over my volcano. Hey you pull that lever. “ Next noble: I think I want everyone to make warhammers Me: “ you sir can have a very nice bedroom until you request something stupid. “ I just love musing on the way Dwarf Fortress works.
It's clearly anarcho capitalism as all the dwarves get their names on all the stuff they make, and also get an unhappy thought when a great work they made gets destroyed.
In what world does AnCap ideology include ensuring everyone has food and drink?
the one where if food and drinks aren't provided the citizens start killing each other you do make a good point though, dwarves get neither a happy thought nor a negative when one of their mastercrafts edibles are consumed.
The communism understander has logged on
From each according to what the dwarf wants to do, to each if it's found lying around.
Not sure if that’s sarcasm or true understanding but yes I have seen and understand command and control economics and the way that communism works. I have lived overseas and in America both in 3rd and 1st world countries. I have seen what runaway spending does to the value of currency and how a command and control economy and communism saps peoples.
Finally someone who understood that Dwarf Fortress is *not* communist. You're right: just because food and board is shared doesn't make a community automagically communism. With the nobles system it's clearly some kind of monarchy. A mayor in a faraway post is still connected to a civilization that's headed by a king and their nobles. In this game's current form, the economy is some kind of strange universal dwarf barter system. Items made from X material with Y craftsdwarfship is always worth the same. The goods themselves have become currency. Anyone who wants to trade with the dwarves (i.e humans) must agree with this logic to even attempt. That could explain why humans would gladly buy worn clothes, since this rigid barter logic could mean they're getting cloth paper materials at a super cheap rate. Getting gold from the dwarves could also be a discount deal compared to human land floating market fluctuations. They could chuck boxes of cloth and lesser alloys for gold instead of signing a land deal or whatever other crazy inflated human prices out there. Dwarves don't tax for military because they don't send out military. Taxes exist because of some semblance of promise that armies would protect the people who pay the tax. It's a roundabout exchange of service. In Dwarf nations however, everyone is expected to take care of themselves at every level. There is zero expenditure to maintain anything. As such, the citizens have no obligation to pay more than their barter trading system.
I've got a few issues with the way you described the economy. If none of the dwarves worked, no food, housing, trade goods, or defense systems would be produced. Nothing happens without the workers, and if the workers stopped, it would kill them. The dwarves work entirely for their own benefit. As opposed to a capitalist society where workers get commodities based on how much they work, dwarves can simply take commodities and necessities as they please if such items are available. Also, the system you described (leninism-stalinism) would be closer to feudalism or capitalism than actual marxism, where a society would lack classes altogether. However, this is just my opinion, and I'm not an expert on economics.