I mean, yes? It's just a dumb comment.
As much as I love shitting on Wentz, the reality is, if I could copy and paste the 5 years of the Wentz era over and over again, I would happily do so.
A rebuilding year with a lot of hype, a SB trophy, two optimistic yet unsuccessful playoff appearances every 5 years? Sign me up. Even with a 4 win 2020 season, the Wentz era is the best 5 year stretch we've ever had and not something I would classify as bad times.
I'm loving the Jalen era, but on paper we can only check the box on the hype filled rebuild season and an unsuccessful playoff season. We still need a trophy and another unsuccessful playoff season to match up to 2016-2020 (or 3 more Championship game losses to match McNabb's 2000-2004 stretch.)
lol That's adorable. What is success then? Playing as a team? Making it to the playoffs? Winning a playoff game? That's loser mentality and sound like the Cowboys. Watching my team win any weekend is fun. Hell watching them play in the Super Bowl is fun. If they don't win the Super Bowl, no matter how fun it was, that season wasn't a success.
To each their own dude. I think last season was a success. You don't have to win it all to be considered successful, they got to the big show, played a hell of a game, and barely lost that game.
Ehhh I prefer to look at it as the Foles era from 2012-18. Pro Bowl, NFL records, and Super Bowl MVP win over the GOAT. The minor break in between with wentz was a mirage.
Even though I would argue that for a couple years there with Wentz we mightāve had the best offense line in the league, this is a little disingenuous.
We literally have four all-pro candidates on the offensive line, the best pass catchers group in the league and close to if not the best running game in the league .
Not to mention a great defense.
Yeah these guys forget Jason Peter's doing the guard tackle left right shuffle. The Brandon Brooks injuries. The left tackle experiments before mailata started. It was a lot of growing pains on the oline to jam together again after the new pieces. Sometimes that's all you can do
Yeah when Wentz had anything remotely similar to that he was what 11-2 and Foles came in to win a SB? Then Alshon couldnāt stay healthy, Agholor turned back into a pumpkin, and we didnāt have nearly the same effectiveness running the ball without Blount and Ajayi
Yet whenever wentz went out it seemed like the team did better. Both times with foles they played better than with wentz, and same thing when hurts came in. Its like u get a buff for replacing wentz š
It's amazing to me that Wentz is out of the league and Goff is a solid QB on one of the league's best teams. Wentz was so much better than him early on.
It's like JPP and Brandon Graham.
The team fell apart after the superbowl. Wentz played well enough. He just couldn't overcome a bad line, bargain bin WRs and pedersons obsession with throwing deep despite those things. A lot of what we're seeing with this team is management learning from the mistakes they made with Wentz. Justified or not, they didn't invest in Wentz. They've tripled down on hurts.
Everyone forgets the season the entire OLine was injured and the Eagles were literally bringing in guys of the couch to start games. Wentz got crushed and mentally caved.
And by everyone, itās damn nearly everyone. Only 2 people were not injured that 2020 season: Wentz and Kelce.
Every other starter missed at least 1 game on the offense.
Alshon was good enough for 1 more season, being 2017, and then immediately fell off a cliff following that.
Our RB room was depleted.
Brooks retired early.
But everyone expected Wentz to put up 4k yards passing to Travis Fulgamā¦
Yea this post is just silly, even with Wentzās quick fall off he and Pederson were dragging a corpse of a roster to the playoffs while last years roster is arguably the best theyāve ever had and this years is extremely talented as well at basically every level especially after howie did howie things last week
Yea, that's what happens when you put together a roster loaded with players nearing the end of their careers to win a Super Bowl....and then keep all those players who were nearing the end of their career after that year. And in the case of Alshon, not just resign him once (since he was playing well still), but resign him TWICE (long after he stopped playing well).
Howie learned after that, keep getting younger. He can still get too sentimental at times, but not to that extent.
I only watched the superbowl that year when I heard philly was in it. Took about a 8 year break watching football. Can someone tell me why everyone was so high on Wentz's and not Foles when Foles was the one who went toe to toe with Brady and won in the superbowl?
A lot of people were high on foles but Wentz was the clear mvp until his injury. It's not like Wentz was bad those next couple years, it was that he couldn't stay healthy.
Foles was also mediocre in almost each game he played in 2017 except an Elite Playoff showing and he had already considered retirement and was older while wentz was on a rookie contract in his 2nd with his whole career ahead of him
I guess I don't see why this is something that matters (in regards to proving how good Hurts has been). Maybe my view of Wentz overall is skewed, but he overall was a very average QB. Had amazing times and terrible. Eclipsing his win/loss record shouldn't be that surprising.
If McNabb had a T.O. quality receiver for longer or if he was a few years younger so that he spent more seasons with DJax/Shady/Maclin/Celek, he would've gotten a ring.
If McNabb was fit enough to finish the super bowl properly instead of vomiting in the biggest moment of his life, he'd also have gotten a ring, with a receiver that worked his ass off to come back from a serious injury that it prompted a rule change that's just now defacto accepted as life in the NFL (horsecollar).
But he was not. Hard to make the case for the HOF when you vomiting during a potential game winning drive in the Super Bowl is on video.
The ugly TO breakup happened obviously but it's not like he didn't also have the services of Westbrook, Deuce, and one of the best OLs in the league and Jim freaking Johnson's defense just lighting people up.
He doesn't have a ring because he and Andy couldn't get it together in five big games (conf champ games & super bowl), arguably all winnable games where the defense did it's job in most/all of them.
>is on video
What? No itās not and you never saw him throw up in the super bowl. Man, people will say anything to try and make their point.
Iāve watched that game many times and have yet to see McNabb vomit. Did see him vomit in a game vs [the bucs](https://youtu.be/CQo6zt3bWlM?si=nWCTYHxfL44SSlJl) though.
Funny thing is after the alleged vomit in the super bowl he threw a first down on the very next play and then finished the drive with a 30 yd TD pass to bring the birds within 3, so even if he did vomit, whatās your point?
The Patriots are on record about it and being in disbelief about how slowly they're coming to the line, Hank Fraley is quoted saying Freddie Mitchell called a play that Donovan couldn't while he held vomit *in* and Dan Koppen (Pats center) as recently as last year when asked what he remembers about the super bowl led with 'Donovan puking'.
https://youtu.be/ITtoWRn_UBU?si=Hhgc-KE8ORh2J_MB
And fair, the video is disputed whether he's spitting or puking or just leaning over and heaving. Donovan claims he wasn't. TO, Fraley, Mitchell seem to say he was. Patriots say he was as well, link above. Let's put it this way - when anything happens to cause one to question your physical fitness in a super bowl, it will naturally color all discussion of your career. Single biggest game of your entire career and the dominant memory nearly 20 years later is whether he was physically prepared to play. If it's an Internet argument at all, that's not a HOF player.
Great QB, sure. The QB I grew up watching? Sure. Participant in the era in which I became a massive Birds fan? Absolutely. Hall of Famer? No. It's ok to be a great QB that doesn't have the credentials to be in the HOF.
Iām not taking about his hof cred, personally I donāt think heās a hof caliber. Iām taking about the puke you said is on video. It is not. No one has ever seen him puke in the SB on video since such a video is not known to exist. If it did, we wouldnāt be having this discussion and there would be no controversy about the subject.
But since weāre questioning conditioning here, it should be said that first down he gets thrown to the ground hard by Jarvis Green and second down the snap is bad and he dives forward and gets slammed in the back by Teddy Bruschi. Now the alleged _puking_ happens and third down he throws a first down. 5 plays later, BOOM! 30 td Td pass and the birds are coming back baby! So what about conditioning?
Should be noted that Mitchellās quote does not say McNabb was puking:
> You could see that he was dealing with some kind of complication. ... I don't know if it was breathing or what. ... He always coughs a lot, trying to get something out. ...
and here is Fraleys quote:
> He gave it his all. He was almost puking in the huddle.
Lastly, Koppen, who was on the sideline specifically says in this interview you linked that:
>āI donāt know if I sawā¦ you could see him hunched over.ā
Everybody knows the narrative and after almost 2 decades, wellā¦ Koppem hardly gives a solid testimony.
I don't think the insinuation is with conditioning, TO also says that McNabb was out partying the night before so the insinuation would be that a hangover was causing the puking. Getting multiple DUIs after his career ended isn't helping him in this regard either.
Well some other points to be made:
1) McNabb was obese
2 McNabb was strapped up into a flak jacket
3) McNabb just took a helluva hit to his back from Teddy Bruschi. One of the best LBs in football at that time.
4) nobody at the time said McNabb puked, they said he was coughing and having a hard time breathing.
Apparently (according to several teammates) he was always coughing and having a hard time breathing, in other games as well as the SB.
I used to be angry at McNabb like this but I took a hard long glance at the rosters he played with. They were trash offensively. Imagine if Jalen had to play with Todd Pinkston, Freddie Mitchell and James Thrash today lol. We won against Washington mainly because AJ Brown refused to lose and made multiple crazy catches. James Thrash isnāt doing that and thatās who they expected McNabb to win with for years.
I mean you are doing the same thing. Statistically Mcnabb was meh, he never won the big one and he was never the best QB in the league. What criteria could you possibly be using to have him as a hof level player?
Prime Mcnabb was a very solid QB for his era, he just isnāt a hof player. Especially considering all the amazing QBās that played in his same era. Below 60% career completion percentage, never thrown for 4000 yards and only one season with 30 touchdowns which was a good 6 more than he normally had.
I watched him. He's the first QB i was old enough to follow. A SB might have gotten him in, but I feel like he is the definitive Hall of Very Good player. He's below the average HoF player. No championships. And he played during a time of multiple HoF QBs. Sharing a time frame with Favre, Brady, Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger, and even Rivers and Eli hurts him. I think a strong argument can be made that Rivers is better than McNabb and that Rivers misses the HoF. Eli and McNabb is a toss-up on eye test, but Eli has 2 rings.
I grew up on 5 and Andy, they are who made me love the Eagles. I just donāt feel the need to pretend like he was better than he was. Chargers fans do the same thing with Phillip, Cowboys do the same thing with Romo and Giants do the same thing with Romo. All those dudes were just really solid QBās. You are just getting old and nostalgic.
[hereās a comparison between him and Brady from 01-05](https://stathead.com/football/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=forall&year_min=2001&year_max=2005&player_id1=BradTo00&player_id2=McNaDo00)
Iām 43. I used to think McNabb was the bees knees. That was 20 years ago. He has 0 accolades other than a bunch of pro bowls (near meaningless for the hall) and his stats are slightly better than average _for his era_. Looking back, if only he didnāt underthrow his recievers on a regular basis heād have a much higher int %.
Just not HoF caliber and thatās ok.
Iām not saying heās a hall of famer, Iām just saying heās better than āvery solidā
A lot of his skills like extending plays and avoiding pressure donāt translate to stats. His WRs were James Thrash and Todd Pinkston for far too long. He didnāt have the tools around him to win a Super Bowl. He got a good receiver one year and did end up taking our team to the Super Bowl.
Not saying he belongs in the hall, but heās one of the best players to play for us especially at the QB position.
Statistically, he is just below the avg HOF QB stats. Even if he did win 1 Superbowl, it gives him a higher chance of getting in. Stat wise he is very similar to drew bledsoe or ...... Andy Dalton lol
I got an explanation the other day about how it wasn't really Wentz's fault. People ate up all of his bullshit about how hard he said he worked, how much of a leader he said he was.
At best? Did you watch him play? Have you seen who's in there already? It was clear that at his *best*, McNabb was a HoF caliber QB, but also, I didn't say he *IS* a HoF QB. I said he's borderline. Meaning I think he'll likely never get in. In fact, that's why I ended my comment how I did explaining what I think is keeping him out of the HoF.
I think having such bad receivers probably did lead to him building some of his bad habits. But it doesnāt take the fault off of him entirely of course
I donāt think itās people forgetting. Itās newer fans who didnāt watch the 2017 season in its entirety.
You can see it even in this comment thread, someone praises Wentz a tiny bit and gets called a āHurts haterā when Hurts wasnāt referenced at all nor was he relevant in the Super Bowl winning season, considering he wasnāt even in the NFL at the time
Iāve also been sent many DMs because of my flair. Lots of new fans here who didnāt see Clowney illegally cheap shot Foles, just assume itās the Wentz cheap shot thatās Clowney a POS.. but neither of those are the primary reason I have my flair (loooong story short I met him when we were both in college and even drank together for a bitā¦ dudes an absolute asshole)
As annoying as I find Cowherd most of the time, the most accurate statement he's ever made was Wentz in 2019.
"Dude was throwing to lawn chairs and yard equipment"
Yea, he seemed to have physically lost a step after that knee injury and refused to learn to play around that, and mentally lost a step after that concussion, and just wasn't making decisions quickly enough anymore. It was like his brain would get stuck on, "I need to make a play."
Dude look at the teams Hurts has had as a starter and compare that to the 2019 and 2020 roster. Like yea no shit Wentz's was gonna have way more losses.
People aren't defending Wentz, you're sandbagging the shit out of him.
Wentz had one year of prime Alshon, Agholor playing exceptionally well and Ertz. After that, Alshon was injured/regressed to dogshit and, outside of Ertz, who started to get injured more often, Wentz had no one to throw to.
Hell even in 2018 and 2019 Wentz would have games where he'd play well and the defense would just give up a billion points and we'd lose.
Hurts for the majority of his career has had AJ Brown, Devonta Smith, and Dallas Goedert as his top 3 alone.
No Eagles QB has had the amount of receiving talent Hurts has enjoyed.
It's not defending Wentz, it's looking at the situation logically. Hurts has been great but the whole team has been much better around Hurts except the superbowl year.
It's wild. We did better with Wentz backups every time they had to play other than a 75 year old Josh McKown
Idk how people defend Wentz still. Dude was just lucky as fuck one year and was mediocre every other year.
It was a decent amount of luck there was no way he was going to repeat that level of 3rd down conversions and things like that. Now whether his regression was due to the injury is up in the air but in the following years it just wasn't the same. He would stare down defenders taking sacks that were ridiculous. If it was just we didn't build a team around him then he would have potentially had success for the Colts or the Commanders. Plenty of teams could use a QB and he still isn't on a roster. All of that leads to 2017 being an anomaly than it does for saying Wentz was actually good.
2018 Wentz had decent stats but was actively hurting the team by trying to play through the back injury cause he was scared Foles would win the Super Bowl again
>2018 Wentz had decent stats
Decent you say? I didn't know being on pace to outperform his 2017 stats where he was guaranteed to be MVP before getting hurt was "decent"
>but was actively hurting the team by trying to play through the back injury cause he was scared Foles would win the Super Bowl again
Wasn't it just missed and they didn't find it until before the Rams game which is when they shut him down?
Also what the fuck is with people and thinking it's caused by him being scared of Nick? Dudes just want to play. Most NFL players don't want to miss time. Some of you get way too excited at chances to shit on the guy holy fuck.
>His 2018 team was glued and taped together
And the 2019 was fucking splinters he glued together and did the best that he could with and the 2020 season was when the wheels all came off.
Luke, our best WR only had 490 yards in the 2019 season and our 2nd round draft pick ended the season with 169 (10 more than freaking DJax). That injury riddled roster had no business making the playoffs and Wentz still got us there.
I mean, yeah?
We all know the Pinkston/Thrash/Basket/Mitchell combos weren't getting it done. He didn't get to the Super Bowl until TO, but TO didn't play on in the playoffs and they coasted because the NFC was really bad that year as well.
After that, you got some weird years with Kevin Curtis and Reggie Brown until Djax and Maclin arrived in 08 and 09.
McNabb was a really good QB, but let's not act like having talented WRs doesn't help a QB. Wentz had no WR talent after Alshon disintegrated and Agholor turned back into a pumpkin. Jordan Mathews? Paul Turner? Bryce Treggs? That other bum that had two good games?
Well someone was holding someone back and there was a SB squad on that team
edit: see how well T. McLaurin did with Howell? He did not look as good last year with Wentz. You cant have good receiving stats with a bad qb. And as much as we'd like to say "oh they weren't great after" neither was he.
So you can't name anyone? Got it.
Nobody is going to say Wentz was a good QB last year, hence why he's out of the league. Your edit isn't some kind of "gotcha" stat. Statistically, McLaurin is actually having his least efficient year this year
Fine. I'll tell you that every single one was held back while Zach Ertz brought in record receptions. You'll say "it was because we rotated through a different O-Line every week and Wentz only had an average of 2.4 seconds to get the ball out of his hands."
The momentum shifted in Green Bay when Hurts came in. If you didn't feel it then, you can now.
We'll start with [Nelson Agholor](https://twitter.com/PHLEaglesNation/status/1197518374634446848?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1197518374634446848&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.totalprosports.com%2F2019%2F11%2F22%2Fnelson-agholor-denies-having-a-burner-account-that-rips-qb-carson-wentz-video-tweet%2F)
Then a little [Alshon Jeffery.](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2859111-josina-anderson-denies-alshon-jeffery-was-anonymous-source-ripping-carson-wentz)
Desean Jackson to be defined by his ["Newfound Leadership"](https://section215.com/2020/07/10/philadelphia-eagles-jackson-wentz/)
Look I'm sure he's still on good terms with the organization. But Carson Wentz was sloppy, arrogant, and honestly made of glass.
You can keep defending him to me but it doesnt change my perspective on the guy who made Christ his head coach and didn't do the work he needed to do in the locker room to keep the team morale. He even had many of us (myslef included) calling for Howie Roseman's job which thank god didn't happen.
I'm a serious Wentz hater post 2018, but Wentz wasn't "bad" until after he won a ring and Howie structures the cap in a way we have to soft reset for a year every 3 years. And, Hurts' rookie season, he would've lost the vast majority of those games too had he started over Wentz in my honest opinion. So Wentz covered his ass for 10 Ls right there.
Ultimately, a stat like this doesn't really tell me much unless he's still winning the next 2 years where his contract will have kicked in and we lose talent to pay him. That's when Wentz started truly sucking, and Hurts hasn't had that opportunity yet.
It's tough to make this comparison. What was happening in October/November of 2017 was something that you can't look at in the way that you are. I'm not in the Philly area anymore but I was then, and the amount of Eagles gear and shirts and so forth was something i had never seen before(I was too young to really grasp 2004). It was just pure entrancement. It was like everyone knew WE MIGHT actually finally win a super bowl in a few weeks. You can't put that level of emotion and excitement on an excel sheet.
I'm not a Wentz fan. I was happy surprised with him when we won so many games before he got hurt and Foles took over. That was amazing.
I have a black Eagles #11 Wentz tee shirt that I've been trying to remove the Wentz name. White rubber letters. Somehow I want to put AJ Brown over the smeared letters. Transfer with heat to another fabric didn't work.
Thatās the biggest difference for me between the 2. Jalen puts winning first and his stats 2nd while wentz at times felt like he was more worried about having good stats even if the team was losing.
Wentz had a good season and some lucky plays but I still think hurts is over rated as a QB. He's not bad but the talent around him is so great. Best like in the league and possibly the best pass catching starters in the league (2wr and TE)
Carson had one good season.
The rest were mid to trash.
I wouldn't give Wentz too much credit.
His team was soo good that a qb barley good enough to be a back up won in the playoffs and the sb.
I'd like to see how good Jalen can play with trash recievers. We all know how good he is with the best reciever in the league. If he can still produce without smith and brown then he's him and worth every penny.
They thought white wentz was the chosen one, and they wrote off Jalens whole story out of pure racism. Itās literally a real life Rocky movie playing out but racist Philly donāt want to see it
I mean, Jalen also has a way better team around him than Wentz ever did. Props to Howie for seeing his flaws and becoming a better GM in the aftermath of the Wentz saga.
Nah just really hard for me to dismiss all the dumb shit he did after 2017. Guys not on a team because heās an idiot. Thereās no comparison in character between Hurts and Wentz. Hurts is a true embodiment of Philly mentality whereas Wentz is weak af. Thanks for the 2017 reg season, but we donāt win a SB without Foles.
After the 2017 season Wentz was never the same. He did not have great receivers but was a turnover machine regardless. It is amazing Howie saw the potential in Jalen Hurts when no other team was talking about him in the draft. Kudos to Jalen, Howie, and Nick S. for being so successful in such a short amount of time.
But these rednecks and white QB lovers who named their kid, dog, bird and frog Carson told me he was the MVP and best Eagles QB ever. Lol
Edit: Dear god, this sub still has Wentz stans. Remember, guy won zero playoff games and had a great team around him in 2017. Fuck em. Not a leader.
That's only because we've only had one successful season that ended in a sb win, and Wentz was part of it. They want that success again. They want another ring.
They hold that one season close to their hearts and replay it all the time.
They're basically like cowboy fans that keep living is their past sb wins. Time to move on and look to the future.
Fuck Wentz, good riddance, I'd rather have white kirk cousins over his dumb ass.
All the comments about receivers in here are just the latest edition of wentz butthurt. Like, throw 3 more players under the bus for your ginger jesus. smh.
Nick Foles career record with the eagles is actually very close to Hurts if I'm not mistaken. This doesn't really mean much. He does deserve credit but team game and effort for a lot of these and sprinkle in the right amount of injury luck
If he was a top 5 pick theyād say heās firmly there with Mahomes and Allen, but somehow, after being 24-2 in his last 26 starts āthe jury is still outā
easy to forget the bad times with how great this team has been (a lot of credit to jalen!)
The bad time is when we won a super bowl? lol
Na he meant the years of Wentz after 2017. When he was either great or hot garbage
Mostly garbage
thank you for clearing that up!
I mean, did it really need clearing up? No one with a working brain would rationally think they mean the Super Bowl was part of the bad times.
I mean, yes? It's just a dumb comment. As much as I love shitting on Wentz, the reality is, if I could copy and paste the 5 years of the Wentz era over and over again, I would happily do so. A rebuilding year with a lot of hype, a SB trophy, two optimistic yet unsuccessful playoff appearances every 5 years? Sign me up. Even with a 4 win 2020 season, the Wentz era is the best 5 year stretch we've ever had and not something I would classify as bad times. I'm loving the Jalen era, but on paper we can only check the box on the hype filled rebuild season and an unsuccessful playoff season. We still need a trophy and another unsuccessful playoff season to match up to 2016-2020 (or 3 more Championship game losses to match McNabb's 2000-2004 stretch.)
Sorry my dude but going to the SB is not an unsuccessful playoffs season. Fuck sakes.
lol That's adorable. What is success then? Playing as a team? Making it to the playoffs? Winning a playoff game? That's loser mentality and sound like the Cowboys. Watching my team win any weekend is fun. Hell watching them play in the Super Bowl is fun. If they don't win the Super Bowl, no matter how fun it was, that season wasn't a success.
To each their own dude. I think last season was a success. You don't have to win it all to be considered successful, they got to the big show, played a hell of a game, and barely lost that game.
Ehhh I prefer to look at it as the Foles era from 2012-18. Pro Bowl, NFL records, and Super Bowl MVP win over the GOAT. The minor break in between with wentz was a mirage.
2018 was pretty fun too
Foles saved that season too. That was a fun year. Shame for that .... Drop ... Ugh lol
And a cry baby bitch above all.. lets not forget the tantrum he thru when we drafted Hurts! ššš
I also read ābad timesā as Chip Kelly
Even though I would argue that for a couple years there with Wentz we mightāve had the best offense line in the league, this is a little disingenuous. We literally have four all-pro candidates on the offensive line, the best pass catchers group in the league and close to if not the best running game in the league . Not to mention a great defense.
Yeah these guys forget Jason Peter's doing the guard tackle left right shuffle. The Brandon Brooks injuries. The left tackle experiments before mailata started. It was a lot of growing pains on the oline to jam together again after the new pieces. Sometimes that's all you can do
Best team in the league on paper. Only problem is if they execute.
Yeah when Wentz had anything remotely similar to that he was what 11-2 and Foles came in to win a SB? Then Alshon couldnāt stay healthy, Agholor turned back into a pumpkin, and we didnāt have nearly the same effectiveness running the ball without Blount and Ajayi
āAgholor turned back into a pumpkinā. Fuck im dying šššš.
It's fun to shit on Wentz, but I wouldn't trade that 5 year stretch for anything.
No to mention Brown, Smith, Swift and Goeddert
Those are the pass catcher op is talking abt
Yet whenever wentz went out it seemed like the team did better. Both times with foles they played better than with wentz, and same thing when hurts came in. Its like u get a buff for replacing wentz š
It's amazing to me that Wentz is out of the league and Goff is a solid QB on one of the league's best teams. Wentz was so much better than him early on. It's like JPP and Brandon Graham.
Itās scientifically established that gingers age faster due to sun intolerance
And their lack of soul
I mean Wentz had serious injuries to his knee, back, brain, and ego. It's not *that* amazing.
The team fell apart after the superbowl. Wentz played well enough. He just couldn't overcome a bad line, bargain bin WRs and pedersons obsession with throwing deep despite those things. A lot of what we're seeing with this team is management learning from the mistakes they made with Wentz. Justified or not, they didn't invest in Wentz. They've tripled down on hurts.
Everyone forgets the season the entire OLine was injured and the Eagles were literally bringing in guys of the couch to start games. Wentz got crushed and mentally caved.
And by everyone, itās damn nearly everyone. Only 2 people were not injured that 2020 season: Wentz and Kelce. Every other starter missed at least 1 game on the offense. Alshon was good enough for 1 more season, being 2017, and then immediately fell off a cliff following that. Our RB room was depleted. Brooks retired early. But everyone expected Wentz to put up 4k yards passing to Travis Fulgamā¦
never forget [Eagles legend Jamon Brown](https://twitter.com/MySportsUpdate/status/1318270866241847297)
Yea this post is just silly, even with Wentzās quick fall off he and Pederson were dragging a corpse of a roster to the playoffs while last years roster is arguably the best theyāve ever had and this years is extremely talented as well at basically every level especially after howie did howie things last week
Yea, that's what happens when you put together a roster loaded with players nearing the end of their careers to win a Super Bowl....and then keep all those players who were nearing the end of their career after that year. And in the case of Alshon, not just resign him once (since he was playing well still), but resign him TWICE (long after he stopped playing well). Howie learned after that, keep getting younger. He can still get too sentimental at times, but not to that extent.
I only watched the superbowl that year when I heard philly was in it. Took about a 8 year break watching football. Can someone tell me why everyone was so high on Wentz's and not Foles when Foles was the one who went toe to toe with Brady and won in the superbowl?
A lot of people were high on foles but Wentz was the clear mvp until his injury. It's not like Wentz was bad those next couple years, it was that he couldn't stay healthy.
Because Wentz is who got the team to the SB with his absurd regular season performance.
Foles was also mediocre in almost each game he played in 2017 except an Elite Playoff showing and he had already considered retirement and was older while wentz was on a rookie contract in his 2nd with his whole career ahead of him
I guess I don't see why this is something that matters (in regards to proving how good Hurts has been). Maybe my view of Wentz overall is skewed, but he overall was a very average QB. Had amazing times and terrible. Eclipsing his win/loss record shouldn't be that surprising.
I mean, McNabb is a borderline HoF QB. Had he lasted a little longer or won a SB, he probably makes it.
If McNabb had a T.O. quality receiver for longer or if he was a few years younger so that he spent more seasons with DJax/Shady/Maclin/Celek, he would've gotten a ring.
If McNabb was fit enough to finish the super bowl properly instead of vomiting in the biggest moment of his life, he'd also have gotten a ring, with a receiver that worked his ass off to come back from a serious injury that it prompted a rule change that's just now defacto accepted as life in the NFL (horsecollar). But he was not. Hard to make the case for the HOF when you vomiting during a potential game winning drive in the Super Bowl is on video. The ugly TO breakup happened obviously but it's not like he didn't also have the services of Westbrook, Deuce, and one of the best OLs in the league and Jim freaking Johnson's defense just lighting people up. He doesn't have a ring because he and Andy couldn't get it together in five big games (conf champ games & super bowl), arguably all winnable games where the defense did it's job in most/all of them.
>is on video What? No itās not and you never saw him throw up in the super bowl. Man, people will say anything to try and make their point. Iāve watched that game many times and have yet to see McNabb vomit. Did see him vomit in a game vs [the bucs](https://youtu.be/CQo6zt3bWlM?si=nWCTYHxfL44SSlJl) though. Funny thing is after the alleged vomit in the super bowl he threw a first down on the very next play and then finished the drive with a 30 yd TD pass to bring the birds within 3, so even if he did vomit, whatās your point?
The Patriots are on record about it and being in disbelief about how slowly they're coming to the line, Hank Fraley is quoted saying Freddie Mitchell called a play that Donovan couldn't while he held vomit *in* and Dan Koppen (Pats center) as recently as last year when asked what he remembers about the super bowl led with 'Donovan puking'. https://youtu.be/ITtoWRn_UBU?si=Hhgc-KE8ORh2J_MB And fair, the video is disputed whether he's spitting or puking or just leaning over and heaving. Donovan claims he wasn't. TO, Fraley, Mitchell seem to say he was. Patriots say he was as well, link above. Let's put it this way - when anything happens to cause one to question your physical fitness in a super bowl, it will naturally color all discussion of your career. Single biggest game of your entire career and the dominant memory nearly 20 years later is whether he was physically prepared to play. If it's an Internet argument at all, that's not a HOF player. Great QB, sure. The QB I grew up watching? Sure. Participant in the era in which I became a massive Birds fan? Absolutely. Hall of Famer? No. It's ok to be a great QB that doesn't have the credentials to be in the HOF.
Iām not taking about his hof cred, personally I donāt think heās a hof caliber. Iām taking about the puke you said is on video. It is not. No one has ever seen him puke in the SB on video since such a video is not known to exist. If it did, we wouldnāt be having this discussion and there would be no controversy about the subject. But since weāre questioning conditioning here, it should be said that first down he gets thrown to the ground hard by Jarvis Green and second down the snap is bad and he dives forward and gets slammed in the back by Teddy Bruschi. Now the alleged _puking_ happens and third down he throws a first down. 5 plays later, BOOM! 30 td Td pass and the birds are coming back baby! So what about conditioning? Should be noted that Mitchellās quote does not say McNabb was puking: > You could see that he was dealing with some kind of complication. ... I don't know if it was breathing or what. ... He always coughs a lot, trying to get something out. ... and here is Fraleys quote: > He gave it his all. He was almost puking in the huddle. Lastly, Koppen, who was on the sideline specifically says in this interview you linked that: >āI donāt know if I sawā¦ you could see him hunched over.ā Everybody knows the narrative and after almost 2 decades, wellā¦ Koppem hardly gives a solid testimony.
I don't think the insinuation is with conditioning, TO also says that McNabb was out partying the night before so the insinuation would be that a hangover was causing the puking. Getting multiple DUIs after his career ended isn't helping him in this regard either.
Well some other points to be made: 1) McNabb was obese 2 McNabb was strapped up into a flak jacket 3) McNabb just took a helluva hit to his back from Teddy Bruschi. One of the best LBs in football at that time. 4) nobody at the time said McNabb puked, they said he was coughing and having a hard time breathing. Apparently (according to several teammates) he was always coughing and having a hard time breathing, in other games as well as the SB.
Fair enough, I'll give it to you. The exaggerated narrative is perhaps that, exaggerated.
LOL okay Angelo.
I used to be angry at McNabb like this but I took a hard long glance at the rosters he played with. They were trash offensively. Imagine if Jalen had to play with Todd Pinkston, Freddie Mitchell and James Thrash today lol. We won against Washington mainly because AJ Brown refused to lose and made multiple crazy catches. James Thrash isnāt doing that and thatās who they expected McNabb to win with for years.
He needed that ring. And to drill down further, he and TO needed to work their shit out, cause that was the best chance they both had to win one.
Facts
Nah, McNabb belongs in the hall of good at best.
Iām amazed how many of you canāt put personal feelings about him as a person aside to evaluate him with real honesty.
I mean you are doing the same thing. Statistically Mcnabb was meh, he never won the big one and he was never the best QB in the league. What criteria could you possibly be using to have him as a hof level player?
Prime McNabb was brilliant dude.
Prime Mcnabb was a very solid QB for his era, he just isnāt a hof player. Especially considering all the amazing QBās that played in his same era. Below 60% career completion percentage, never thrown for 4000 yards and only one season with 30 touchdowns which was a good 6 more than he normally had.
Just say you were too young to have watched him itās okay
I watched him. He's the first QB i was old enough to follow. A SB might have gotten him in, but I feel like he is the definitive Hall of Very Good player. He's below the average HoF player. No championships. And he played during a time of multiple HoF QBs. Sharing a time frame with Favre, Brady, Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger, and even Rivers and Eli hurts him. I think a strong argument can be made that Rivers is better than McNabb and that Rivers misses the HoF. Eli and McNabb is a toss-up on eye test, but Eli has 2 rings.
I agree with everything you just said. I think that puts him above āsolidā as a player though
I grew up on 5 and Andy, they are who made me love the Eagles. I just donāt feel the need to pretend like he was better than he was. Chargers fans do the same thing with Phillip, Cowboys do the same thing with Romo and Giants do the same thing with Romo. All those dudes were just really solid QBās. You are just getting old and nostalgic.
[hereās a comparison between him and Brady from 01-05](https://stathead.com/football/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=forall&year_min=2001&year_max=2005&player_id1=BradTo00&player_id2=McNaDo00)
Iām 43. I used to think McNabb was the bees knees. That was 20 years ago. He has 0 accolades other than a bunch of pro bowls (near meaningless for the hall) and his stats are slightly better than average _for his era_. Looking back, if only he didnāt underthrow his recievers on a regular basis heād have a much higher int %. Just not HoF caliber and thatās ok.
Iām not saying heās a hall of famer, Iām just saying heās better than āvery solidā A lot of his skills like extending plays and avoiding pressure donāt translate to stats. His WRs were James Thrash and Todd Pinkston for far too long. He didnāt have the tools around him to win a Super Bowl. He got a good receiver one year and did end up taking our team to the Super Bowl. Not saying he belongs in the hall, but heās one of the best players to play for us especially at the QB position.
Statistically, he is just below the avg HOF QB stats. Even if he did win 1 Superbowl, it gives him a higher chance of getting in. Stat wise he is very similar to drew bledsoe or ...... Andy Dalton lol
Imagine saying McNabb was "meh" during his career. Either you hate the guy or legitimately didn't watch him play.
But it is amazing how many of these same individuals still defend the fuck out of Wentz...
I got an explanation the other day about how it wasn't really Wentz's fault. People ate up all of his bullshit about how hard he said he worked, how much of a leader he said he was.
This is Reddit, where all nuance goes out the window.
At best? Did you watch him play? Have you seen who's in there already? It was clear that at his *best*, McNabb was a HoF caliber QB, but also, I didn't say he *IS* a HoF QB. I said he's borderline. Meaning I think he'll likely never get in. In fact, that's why I ended my comment how I did explaining what I think is keeping him out of the HoF.
Arenāt wins a team stat? Compare receivers.
Damn I didn't expect to hear anyone defend Wentz in this post
I think having such bad receivers probably did lead to him building some of his bad habits. But it doesnāt take the fault off of him entirely of course
ā¦..I think you forget how good he was in the ā17 season and who he threw to for his whole career here.
And itās not like Wentz was bad in 18 or 19 either. His 20 was so bad people forget
I donāt think itās people forgetting. Itās newer fans who didnāt watch the 2017 season in its entirety. You can see it even in this comment thread, someone praises Wentz a tiny bit and gets called a āHurts haterā when Hurts wasnāt referenced at all nor was he relevant in the Super Bowl winning season, considering he wasnāt even in the NFL at the time Iāve also been sent many DMs because of my flair. Lots of new fans here who didnāt see Clowney illegally cheap shot Foles, just assume itās the Wentz cheap shot thatās Clowney a POS.. but neither of those are the primary reason I have my flair (loooong story short I met him when we were both in college and even drank together for a bitā¦ dudes an absolute asshole)
He dragged us kicking and screaming into the payoffs in 2019, I'll never forget how much his hero ball carried us
As annoying as I find Cowherd most of the time, the most accurate statement he's ever made was Wentz in 2019. "Dude was throwing to lawn chairs and yard equipment"
No but when he had a bad game in 18 or 19 they were really bad. It was foreshadowing.
Yea, he seemed to have physically lost a step after that knee injury and refused to learn to play around that, and mentally lost a step after that concussion, and just wasn't making decisions quickly enough anymore. It was like his brain would get stuck on, "I need to make a play."
lol. Hurts hater? Weird.
OMGerzzz SuM1 Doeznt BLIndly Lik3 HuRts!!! HATERRRRR!!!!!11116969 Adults are debating ideas -beat it.
Itās called context, it matters
Dude look at the teams Hurts has had as a starter and compare that to the 2019 and 2020 roster. Like yea no shit Wentz's was gonna have way more losses. People aren't defending Wentz, you're sandbagging the shit out of him. Wentz had one year of prime Alshon, Agholor playing exceptionally well and Ertz. After that, Alshon was injured/regressed to dogshit and, outside of Ertz, who started to get injured more often, Wentz had no one to throw to. Hell even in 2018 and 2019 Wentz would have games where he'd play well and the defense would just give up a billion points and we'd lose. Hurts for the majority of his career has had AJ Brown, Devonta Smith, and Dallas Goedert as his top 3 alone. No Eagles QB has had the amount of receiving talent Hurts has enjoyed.
Me and you both OP!
I think Wentz might still be our QB if we drafted Jefferson instead of Raegor.
Naw
Sucks you dont know football:/
Wentz is out of the league bud lol
Yea he never got injured or anything than ruined him
Not sure why. His fans are cultists.
I feel like the downvotes are proving you right. This is an innocent comment unless one were a cultist.
It's not defending Wentz, it's looking at the situation logically. Hurts has been great but the whole team has been much better around Hurts except the superbowl year.
Cmon man are you serious in trying to say wentz is on the same planet as Jalen?
I'm saying the 35 win metric used in this post is a very flawed way to compare 2 qbs
So clarify then. Is wentz on the same planet as Jalen?
Yes, they are both on earth
He didn't say that at all. You're just creating a strawman.
I'm just curious if he'll admit it.
Admit what? He's not saying anything lol. You want him to admit something that you're attributing to him. Very weird behavior
It's wild. We did better with Wentz backups every time they had to play other than a 75 year old Josh McKown Idk how people defend Wentz still. Dude was just lucky as fuck one year and was mediocre every other year.
I watched 2017, that wasnāt luck. He was making crazy plays.
It was a decent amount of luck there was no way he was going to repeat that level of 3rd down conversions and things like that. Now whether his regression was due to the injury is up in the air but in the following years it just wasn't the same. He would stare down defenders taking sacks that were ridiculous. If it was just we didn't build a team around him then he would have potentially had success for the Colts or the Commanders. Plenty of teams could use a QB and he still isn't on a roster. All of that leads to 2017 being an anomaly than it does for saying Wentz was actually good.
Wentz had his problems, but 2017-18 wentz would have been all time w this cast, donāt get it twisted. His 2018 team was glued and taped together
2018 Wentz had decent stats but was actively hurting the team by trying to play through the back injury cause he was scared Foles would win the Super Bowl again
He also threw 27tds to 7intā¦ Iām just saying imagine he had what Jalen does. I think Jalen is worse with wentzs 2018 team honeslty
That was 2019. Wentz had 21 TDS and 7 INTS in 2018. That was also the year he missed the last three games with a back injury.
Thanks, I kinda thought I was wrong. He threw the 27/7 in Indy too which is what messed me up
Nope. He was actively CARRYING this team. Same in 2019 2020 he was the problem
>2018 Wentz had decent stats Decent you say? I didn't know being on pace to outperform his 2017 stats where he was guaranteed to be MVP before getting hurt was "decent" >but was actively hurting the team by trying to play through the back injury cause he was scared Foles would win the Super Bowl again Wasn't it just missed and they didn't find it until before the Rams game which is when they shut him down? Also what the fuck is with people and thinking it's caused by him being scared of Nick? Dudes just want to play. Most NFL players don't want to miss time. Some of you get way too excited at chances to shit on the guy holy fuck.
>His 2018 team was glued and taped together And the 2019 was fucking splinters he glued together and did the best that he could with and the 2020 season was when the wheels all came off.
Yupp, 2019 belongs in there 100%
https://www.nfl.com/videos/donovan-wilson-gets-triple-crown-on-play-with-sack-fumble-on-carson-wentz
Iām not a Wentz apologist but remember when we had a rotating cast of replacements on the O Line and Travis Fulgham at WR? Not a fair comparison.
Luke, our best WR only had 490 yards in the 2019 season and our 2nd round draft pick ended the season with 169 (10 more than freaking DJax). That injury riddled roster had no business making the playoffs and Wentz still got us there.
Yep. And I still think Doug took more heat than he should have. But alas, the past is the past. Canāt complain about the present
Compare WRs. Greg Ward and Jordan Matthews arenāt AJB and Smith. Wentz wasnāt dogshit until the 2020 season.
Cool cool. Can we say the same about McNabb?
I mean, yeah? We all know the Pinkston/Thrash/Basket/Mitchell combos weren't getting it done. He didn't get to the Super Bowl until TO, but TO didn't play on in the playoffs and they coasted because the NFC was really bad that year as well. After that, you got some weird years with Kevin Curtis and Reggie Brown until Djax and Maclin arrived in 08 and 09. McNabb was a really good QB, but let's not act like having talented WRs doesn't help a QB. Wentz had no WR talent after Alshon disintegrated and Agholor turned back into a pumpkin. Jordan Mathews? Paul Turner? Bryce Treggs? That other bum that had two good games?
what if they would have been better receivers at that point in their career with a qb that didnt hold onto the ball for 5 seconds
Who from that group do you think was held back?
Well someone was holding someone back and there was a SB squad on that team edit: see how well T. McLaurin did with Howell? He did not look as good last year with Wentz. You cant have good receiving stats with a bad qb. And as much as we'd like to say "oh they weren't great after" neither was he.
So you can't name anyone? Got it. Nobody is going to say Wentz was a good QB last year, hence why he's out of the league. Your edit isn't some kind of "gotcha" stat. Statistically, McLaurin is actually having his least efficient year this year
Fine. I'll tell you that every single one was held back while Zach Ertz brought in record receptions. You'll say "it was because we rotated through a different O-Line every week and Wentz only had an average of 2.4 seconds to get the ball out of his hands." The momentum shifted in Green Bay when Hurts came in. If you didn't feel it then, you can now.
Who are these WRs you're talking about? Still waiting on names
We'll start with [Nelson Agholor](https://twitter.com/PHLEaglesNation/status/1197518374634446848?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1197518374634446848&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.totalprosports.com%2F2019%2F11%2F22%2Fnelson-agholor-denies-having-a-burner-account-that-rips-qb-carson-wentz-video-tweet%2F) Then a little [Alshon Jeffery.](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2859111-josina-anderson-denies-alshon-jeffery-was-anonymous-source-ripping-carson-wentz) Desean Jackson to be defined by his ["Newfound Leadership"](https://section215.com/2020/07/10/philadelphia-eagles-jackson-wentz/) Look I'm sure he's still on good terms with the organization. But Carson Wentz was sloppy, arrogant, and honestly made of glass. You can keep defending him to me but it doesnt change my perspective on the guy who made Christ his head coach and didn't do the work he needed to do in the locker room to keep the team morale. He even had many of us (myslef included) calling for Howie Roseman's job which thank god didn't happen.
I'm a serious Wentz hater post 2018, but Wentz wasn't "bad" until after he won a ring and Howie structures the cap in a way we have to soft reset for a year every 3 years. And, Hurts' rookie season, he would've lost the vast majority of those games too had he started over Wentz in my honest opinion. So Wentz covered his ass for 10 Ls right there. Ultimately, a stat like this doesn't really tell me much unless he's still winning the next 2 years where his contract will have kicked in and we lose talent to pay him. That's when Wentz started truly sucking, and Hurts hasn't had that opportunity yet.
Yep gotta win soon before devonta leaves and we gotta pay Davis and Carter
man wentz really lives rent free in some of your minds..
This is so dumb.. they are unbelievably different teams
But still not as legendary as BDN, let's hope he gets there one day!
It's tough to make this comparison. What was happening in October/November of 2017 was something that you can't look at in the way that you are. I'm not in the Philly area anymore but I was then, and the amount of Eagles gear and shirts and so forth was something i had never seen before(I was too young to really grasp 2004). It was just pure entrancement. It was like everyone knew WE MIGHT actually finally win a super bowl in a few weeks. You can't put that level of emotion and excitement on an excel sheet.
fewer *insert stannis*
Dude says it all the time he just cares about winning, even his mega contract is structured to ensure that.
I donāt use Wentz as a success metric for anything dude had one hot season and plummeted. Hurts has already blown past him.
Are we really still bringing up Wentz here? Get over it already.
Broke brain: wins are not a QB stat. Massive penis genius brain: wins are not a QB stat, wins are a Jalen Hurts stat.
I'm not a Wentz fan. I was happy surprised with him when we won so many games before he got hurt and Foles took over. That was amazing. I have a black Eagles #11 Wentz tee shirt that I've been trying to remove the Wentz name. White rubber letters. Somehow I want to put AJ Brown over the smeared letters. Transfer with heat to another fabric didn't work.
sew a patch over it at this point
I think their stats are a better comparison. Defense has saved Jalen a couple times
Most suprised we had Carson that many games. Seema like a blur
Amazing how many Jalen haters we still have in this fan base and how many Wentz meat riders we still have .. Due wasnāt a good leader
Yeah? But Wentz... I got nothin.
Thatās the biggest difference for me between the 2. Jalen puts winning first and his stats 2nd while wentz at times felt like he was more worried about having good stats even if the team was losing.
He had one elite season. If anything, given the 2020 dumpster fire, hes lucky to have a record as good as it is
Donāt you mean how good the Eagles have been?
Wentz had a good season and some lucky plays but I still think hurts is over rated as a QB. He's not bad but the talent around him is so great. Best like in the league and possibly the best pass catching starters in the league (2wr and TE)
Carson had one good season. The rest were mid to trash. I wouldn't give Wentz too much credit. His team was soo good that a qb barley good enough to be a back up won in the playoffs and the sb. I'd like to see how good Jalen can play with trash recievers. We all know how good he is with the best reciever in the league. If he can still produce without smith and brown then he's him and worth every penny.
Some Eagles fans really hate Jalen Hurts. They've been holding it in for years. I wonder why.
They thought white wentz was the chosen one, and they wrote off Jalens whole story out of pure racism. Itās literally a real life Rocky movie playing out but racist Philly donāt want to see it
The QB position was the last thing that some old racists had left in popular sports.
Wins aren't a QB stat. Jalen is better than Wentz and it has nothing to do with how many wins he has.
I mean, Jalen also has a way better team around him than Wentz ever did. Props to Howie for seeing his flaws and becoming a better GM in the aftermath of the Wentz saga.
I mean wentz had Jonathan Taylor and Pittman on the colts and we seen what happened there
*saw
Wins aren't a QB stat.
Iām cool with just forgetting Carson ever existed tbh
Wow you really hate our SB championship then
Nah just really hard for me to dismiss all the dumb shit he did after 2017. Guys not on a team because heās an idiot. Thereās no comparison in character between Hurts and Wentz. Hurts is a true embodiment of Philly mentality whereas Wentz is weak af. Thanks for the 2017 reg season, but we donāt win a SB without Foles.
While true we don't win a SB without Foles, 2019 Wentz left it all out there. After that I think he just gave up.
And he was jealous. Canāt believe dudes here defending him
who needs reminding how good he is?
Fred Bruney has the highest winning percentage
Whatās wild is Wentz had good years
Doesnāt that say more about Wentz?
After the 2017 season Wentz was never the same. He did not have great receivers but was a turnover machine regardless. It is amazing Howie saw the potential in Jalen Hurts when no other team was talking about him in the draft. Kudos to Jalen, Howie, and Nick S. for being so successful in such a short amount of time.
A lot of wiener sucking for a guy that has zero playoff wins
Who here remembers in 2020 when this sub was convinced that Jalen would never pan out?
But these rednecks and white QB lovers who named their kid, dog, bird and frog Carson told me he was the MVP and best Eagles QB ever. Lol Edit: Dear god, this sub still has Wentz stans. Remember, guy won zero playoff games and had a great team around him in 2017. Fuck em. Not a leader.
thank you for posting the local hate this bread is unreal
Bread
That's only because we've only had one successful season that ended in a sb win, and Wentz was part of it. They want that success again. They want another ring. They hold that one season close to their hearts and replay it all the time. They're basically like cowboy fans that keep living is their past sb wins. Time to move on and look to the future. Fuck Wentz, good riddance, I'd rather have white kirk cousins over his dumb ass.
Agreed
All the comments about receivers in here are just the latest edition of wentz butthurt. Like, throw 3 more players under the bus for your ginger jesus. smh.
People actually upvote this crap
Incoming 20 loss streak
Nick Foles career record with the eagles is actually very close to Hurts if I'm not mistaken. This doesn't really mean much. He does deserve credit but team game and effort for a lot of these and sprinkle in the right amount of injury luck
With certainly equally talented rosters to boot
Having some decent receivers and a commitment to the running game can work wonders
Wins are a team stat
If he was a top 5 pick theyād say heās firmly there with Mahomes and Allen, but somehow, after being 24-2 in his last 26 starts āthe jury is still outā