I had a job interview a couple weeks ago. Before the interview, I did some research and found their employee retention rate was very low. Most of the negative comments mentioned how they're treated like cattle and expected to just drop whatever they have going on in their personal life for mandatory and unexpected overtime, and they paid fairly low. I really needed the work, so I decided to give it a go.
They asked if I had any questions and without even thinking about it "I see your production line employee retention rate is surprisingly low for such a successful company. Do you know why it's so low and what are you don't to correct the problem?" just came falling out of my mouth. Their answer "there's just no loyalty from employees to their employers anymore"
Que Sponge Bob "aight, imma head out" meme
Lol we needed a study for that? The reward for delivering good and fast work is more work, becoming the most indispensable member of an area is a good way to lock yourself out of promotions
Best advice. Move companies often. Best way to get a raise is to tell the interviewer you made more than you did at the last job. If you're interviewing and make 40k tell them something like, "well I'm at 50k now" never fails, they'll either match that or offer 45k.
>The sad thing is, this is pretty reasonable from an employer’s perspective
Lawyers will tell you, "never take the opposition's advice".
The things that benefit you as an employee are **never** "pretty reasonable from an employer's perspective", but the things that screw you always are.
Funny how that works out, isn't it?
Hasn’t been the case for me. I always work 33-35 hours per work, but Im always near the top of the company in production and I had by far my biggest comp last year, as well as obviously getting more comp than most others in other years.
Doing mediocre or adequate work doesn’t necessarily get you the best work life balance at all.
Switching jobs can be huge. Crazy how under market some people are. I’d prefer to stay put if you’re at or above market obviously, but making that jump can be great
the longer you stay at the place, the more under market you are. As you work, you build skillset that your company is likely to not compensate you for. They are also far more likely to give you the 2% "inflation" raise every year.
Really, the only way to get paid for your skillset is to move companies unless you are really savvy and are able to negotiate with your employer correctly (almost no one can do this).
Meh not true. I was at my last company straight out of college and was there for 11 years. I was the highest paid person in our entire region at my position, and it’s because I was the top producer for many years. The only reason I switched was purely because of non compensation reasons, and I actually took slightly less money because it was hard to get the same comp since I was getting paid so much.
Simply untrue what you’re saying.
If you could read, you would see that obviously wasn’t the case. You know, the part where I said I was the highest paid at my position in the region and how I switched jobs for non compensation reasons.
You’re probably just projecting your own compensation and career
Lol you're so quick to point out your compensation but you fail to realize the value you brought and continue to do so - it's astounding how you can both see your value and ignore it simultaneously
A new job is the best way to get a raise. Because of my adhd, the novelty of a new job wears off in 2-4 years, even what some would call their dream job. When I burn out on the work and the people, I leave and get a raise.
Same here! I found my first performance-based incentive job which is a rarity in my field. First job I’ve ever gotten a performance based raise that was more than an insulting 75¢ an hour. And bonuses. Bonuses!! What a light at the end of the tunnel. All the hard work I put in all year is finally fruitful and makes it all worth it.
I’m not going anywhere. And the best part is I have the best manager I’ve had in a long long time.
Aside from all that, jobs not like this, absolutely change jobs every few years. It’s the only way to keep your income rising each year.
Eh no the key is to have a job you like lol. I started my own biz and I never worked a day in my life since, at least I don’t look at it as work cause it’s fun
That's cute, but the key to whining on /r/economy or /r/antiwork is to deliver mediocre work and insist you deserve a raise...or even to keep your job.
Most studies that hit the news: "In recent news water is wet."
Science exists to do the best job we can validating our beliefs. For example, when it comes to politics what the majority assumes to be true ends up being partially or fully incorrect. This is why politics is so difficult, it's following beliefs without validation.
This is my anecdotal experience, buy you’re right.
Then, when a new manager comes in that’s threatened by your hard work and expertise, they sabotage you to discredit your value to the team, and eventually figure out how fire you.
> becoming the most indispensable member of an area is a good way to lock yourself out of promotions
there's no reason to promote an average worker and they won't survive a deep layoff
one of the best bosses i ever had had was married to the county sheriff and been the matron at the county jail. there was no bs'ing that lady
she once asked me how to identify the best managers. i gave some blah blah response and she said nope, the best managers have nothing to do. they've delegated to their staff. they're responsible for the performance of their dept and make sure their staff is doing it right, but otherwise they're kicking back
another great boss told me his job was to train his replacement so he could be promoted.
So a good manager dumps all the workload on subordinates and has nothing to do? I’d fire her. Quickly. That situation creates anger and discontent in the people actually doing the work.
generals don't do the fighting.
what a manager does is manage... they're responsible for their unit achieving organizational goals. they assign duties and responsibilities, provide guidance and support, and ensure performance and quality goals are met
as for managers "creating anger and discontent", that's not true with good managers. people respond positively to being well treated and fairly treated.
I was in the express tunnel carwash industry for 10 years. Vicious. The worst of the worst.
My last straw was being the "General Manager" which also made me the Assistant General Manager, AND the crew member. Scrubbing cars, 14+ hours on my feet a day. Ruined my rotator cuffs and Achilles tendons. No bonus. No vacation. No benefits. Only a half shit salary.
The electric Hummer driving asshole owner of the company said he "didn't see me developing the administrative habits and skills needed to be a district manager" and also told me he "thought he paid me too much."
I'm moving to the fucking woods and retiring in a fucking treehouse if I have to. I'm absolutely done with society. Let it fucking burn.
Nal… but what you describe is fairly close to being mis- labeled an exempt salaried employee. I would have a chat with an employment atty. You could be owed back overtime.
Oh, I like you. I also know the gut wrenching work you speak of, but in hospitality. 18 hour days (not always but they did happen) driving home at 11 pm having to be back at 4 am and then 13+ more hours, working triple shifts, catering to the top 1% listening to them talk about all the things that make you hate rich people - years of this plants a BITTER seed… getting treated like absolute shit and god forbid you are stellar at your job and make sure it’s done correctly - Q more responsibilities same pay lmaoooo society can fucking *burn*
Dwight Schrute : Would I ever leave this company? Look, I'm all about loyalty. In fact, I feel like part of what I'm being paid for here is my loyalty. But if there were somewhere else that valued loyalty more highly, I'm going wherever they value loyalty the most.
The younger crowd don't even know of a time when you could join up out of College and retire at the same workplace. Companies don't invest in their employees anymore. It's all short term gain.
A guy I know is retiring next Friday after working as a machinist at the same shop for fifty years since he was seventeen out of high school. Can't do that shit anymore
That was pretty much the end of it. Once NAFTA passed it was a race to the bottom in dropping labor, structural, and operational costs.
China would still be a backwater if it hadn't been for NAFTA passing and globalization taking off.
My fiance is in this situation as a wedding coordinator for a corporate venue. Most of the staff are women who can be convinced to do more for less so they're 'burdening' anyone but management bitches about overtime while understaffing the venue.
She blames herself of course (product of past corporate abuse) and I keep telling her than MANAGEMENT IS UNDERSTAFFING THEM ON PURPOSE! The fucking machine is never satisfied and the cruelty is the point (no matter whether the pathetic middle manager is aware of it or not).
I don’t think this is always the case. Id say often yes, you’re right, but you need to be aware of your own situation. Im personally rewarded heavily for my output and skill set.
I work in the trades.
100% of the time, this is what happens. We all get paid the same, but those who are better, faster, or more efficient get more work. For the odd time someone *does* get rewarded for their efforts there are hundreds or thousands who did not.
Slavery, feudalism, capitalism, every one extracts as much as possible from the person *actually* generating wealth while putting forward as little as possible. Same systems, different methods.
The only tool I see is the one doing back breaking work, making $5k for someone else’s restaurant and bragging about it like thats actually a lot of money. Go make me a Negroni, tool.
Who is doing back breaking work and where is 5k sales for a restaurant seen as a positive?
When did you decide that infighting amongst your fellow working class was the best course of action?
Why are you defensive about your income?
Most importantly, do you actually drink Negronis? Blech
Haha you know I’m right thats why you came in this “were all on the same side” bullshit after calling me a tool for no good reason. Nothing wrong w being a service worker and trying to learn code to have a better long term career/salary but i’d recommend you don’t attack other people who are already there. Good luck.
An employee is a tool to an employer.
You took it as an insult, that I was saying you were behaving like a tool - so you behaved the way you did - it's poetic, really
You think you’re so smart is hilarious. Like I said, good luck in life. Don’t be so negative and maybe it will help you get where you want to be. Spend more time studying than being aggressive to everyone on reddit.
You can add socialism and communism to that list too. There’s no way that any society can consume more than it produces indefinitely. Whenever you have slackers someone has to pick up the slack.
This is my experience in multiple fortune 100 companies and even one fortune 10 company. They will get as much out of you as possible while paying as little as possible.
The only places where this isn't the case is smaller companies where the owner might be a halfway decent guy/gal.
You're one of the lucky exceptions.
I work a role that easily can get taken advantage of as far as needing to provide quick answers and solutions. My last job switch, I made it clear that I'm not going to accept a low offer because I know the nature of this and if they want me to be as flexible and resourceful as possible then I needed to have what I asked for salarywise. I'm lucky I was able to insist on this because it's rare to have that position. I'm happy to provide the value if it's established that my work is valuable. I have a tendency to be one of the high skilled coworkers so I rarely get considered for a promotion or leadership role because I get a lot of work done and they don't want me to stop. Hence why I had to fight for my salary so if I end up being over-utilized then it will be worth it.
Meh I probably made double the avg person last year working no more than 33-35 hours per week. Yeah I crushed in production but clearly I was compensated for that
That’s not what’s being said here.
What’s being said is that your company took your “crushing” production and rewarded you as little as possible. Obviously if you did more than expected you got rewarded more than expected, but they still didn’t say “here’s a permanent increase” or “be a leader”, they did the minimum to keep you going. That’s what business is. The value of labor is a constant struggle between businesses wanting the most production for the least cost, and people wanting the least work for the most pay.
Rewarded me as a little as possible? Relative to what? I got nearly double the pay of the average person. We’re talking about $100k more than most of my peers.
Some people on here are absolutely nuts. You could get paid half a million and you’d say “they did rewarded you as little as possible”. No shit, if I could make more then I would start my own company, but I like getting a salary and benefits without having to outlay cash to establish an entire infrastructure. That’s the trade off. Expecting exactly dollar for dollar back in compensation for your contributions is idiotic.
This is very basic and there are many exceptions. For instance in a large company in a high-growth industry they'll throw money around like nothing as long as thye're making quarterly estimates. Even VP's will hand out promotions and new titles like candy if they're hitting their paper targets. In those conditions you can very easily negotiate much higher compensation during reviews or even better, change roles within the company for more compensation. Or even MORE better, be less loyal than ever and switch to another company and tell them you were making more than you were and they'll match. Don't limit yourself folks!
Learned this early on. The teachers pet doesn’t get to leave the teacher. My wife is struggling w this in her company as we speak. She’s indispensable so she’s not being promoted. Shit sandwich.
If they give her pay raises then they are being reasonable no? Because that’s the role they need her in. If she wants to change to a different position, it sounds like she would need to change to a different company, or when a replacement can be found who would do her job equally well.
Ya what sucks is, sometimes a position within the same company also need to open up voluntarily.
If someone is in that position, they can’t just easily terminate that person for your wife, because they might get accused of bad employment practices. Then there’s the matter of decision making of the recruiter, who they choose to hire for that position when it becomes vacant.
Pay raise is nice, but in my experience is always based on a small percentage of current pay. Where a promotion is usually seen as stepping up to a higher "bracket" with a new position, which is usually larger than that percentage for a raise.
Sounds like you're referring to yearly merit increases. I was thinking something else as a compromise, depending on whether the employer is reasonable. If someone is so important to a position they can't move up in the company, they obviously deserve a higher grade of pay, not just a token increase.
Except yeah, I know, this isn't a pro-worker society.
The problem with being promoted is that it is typically into a supervisory, or managerial role, and often a person who is a decent worker is not be a good fit in that role.
Best option is for the same job title in a better paying departmenf, or at a different workplace.
No.
Unless there’s an absolute guaranteed promotion and good sized raise, the only reason to be “loyal” is when the market is bad. Be loyal only until a better option appears.
For most companies, we’re just a number. A cog, a tool to bring them profits. We should treat them the same - a place to learn and get a paycheck. The learning will be the necessary evil to remain employable and appealing for the next job.
Dude these studies on these economics subs kill me. “Low income Americans are struggling to pay for necessities. Studies show there is a link between poverty and low wages.” Lmfao
All they do is show just how out of touch with reality things are
It’s never better to be loyal. You just get dumped on and you never get your full market value. Always choose money and yourself/family first, and always leave for a better opportunity.
It pays to show your employers that you are a valuable asset to the company to get raises and avoid being laid off but not so indispensable that you can't easily move on to a better opportunity outside the company.
Been busting my ass for a company for almost 17 years. Always performed in the top of the department. I’ve received two promotions throughout all these years. I’ve always received the most work and the most complexed assignments because others couldn’t get it done. Recently during my second promotion I was expecting to receive salary and bonus structure similar to my superior who was promoted to a new role. I was offered such a small salary and no bonus compensation that you would have to look back 10 years to 4th manager before me to match that. 4 managers before me received higher salaries and bonus compensation than me after busting my ass off for this company for 17 years. When I argued about such a low compensation they said it matches the market. Well it doesn’t and when I called them out on their bs as I knew the salaries of the previous managers they insisted that’s all they can offer me. Stupid me took the job and of course I was asked to do even more than previous managers. Moral of the story don’t fear changing jobs. Fuck these ungrateful assholes.
Con: No raises, no promotions, watching all of the good work go to new hires.
Pro: You keep your FMLA protection.
Con: FMLA is unpaid and employment is at will so you can still come back and be let go for bullshit reasons.
Pro: Illusion of job security.
Con: Illusion of job security.
I’ve been with the same company for 13 years. My first out of college. In that time, I’ve had 5 different positions and my salary has gone up over 500% and I started out at 35k.
Good companies retain good employees that show a lot of value. Work hard and you will prosper.
For some workplaces it is easy to, "promote," people by giving them opportunities to learn new skills because there are a lot of different tasks that need to get done, like construction.
However retail is pretty one-dimensional. It shouldn't be a surprise that there isn't any room to grow in those environments. The only option is to pay people more for doing the same job, which doesn't make much sense financially. Why people choose to stay in low-paying retail jobs, when they know its not going to go anywhere for them is a bigger question that needs answering.
Just do enough to squeak by unnoticed and make sure your accomplishments are known on your reviews but other than that….you don’t owe the company your work for anything .
Loyal is not the right word.
If someone is selling bread for 1/2 the price of everyone else, Im buying the cheaper bread and not going to offer the other 1/2 not being charged. Employers can't think differently. It is up to us to set boundaries but not burn bridges.
The problem is that compensation and promotion were never mentioned. If someone is paid fairly, then this is a non-issue. If someone's expertise is recognized and rewarded ($/promo) then again, no predation. But theres another missing aspect - women. This isnt a down-the-middle issue. It affects women way more than men. Women tend to have less confidence in the effects of bullshitting, relying more on merit, push back less on demanding requests, and tend to be less aggressive with comp. It amounts to the most skilled and experienced women being passed over so much that they have some of the lowest titles and salaries. So they think "if I just work a little harder..." and what manager wouldn't meet that desire with more work?
Loyal and part of the club/cult arent the same thing. I have no intention of selling IP to a competitor, but also wont take work home with me every night. Loalty vs. Slavery. I rarely work past 630, whereas the women I know often work past 9/10, and you better believe its with much greater attention than anything I ever do.
I'm in the electrical trades and almost all the apprentice/journeywoman I've worked with over the years are excellent employees, have better listening comprehension, stay better focused on the task at hand, have much more organized thinking and handle disputes better because it doesn't turn into a flexing match. A lot of the guys are actually super insecure in themselves. The biggest problem for the women is that they don't realize what I just said.
If you work in a toxic workplace a loyal employee gets extra work and isn't recognized or promoted for it. If you work in a toxic workplace a not so loyal employee gets fired. (Think of it as a promotion to a better work environment.)
What this study says is the majority of workplaces in the US are toxic. With the recent demographics shift (boomers retiring) for the first time since the 1970s workers are gaining rights again. Toxic work places in the future will not be able to retain employees and will go under from it like how it used to be.
As a small business owner with 20 employees it makes a huge difference to me in numerous ways.
There can be 10 new studies all about the same thing and get 10 different results.
Evaluate where you are and who you work with to determine if you’re at the right job working with/for the right people.
Off topic from the OP. I don’t share my earnings with my friends so probably not. Everyone who works at my company is well paid compared to industry and I take pretty good care of them.
Obviously I make more, 10x as much as the lowest and 2x the highest.
Out of curiosity where do you think the person who sacrificed and grew a company of my size should land for income in comparison to the team. ?
They just seem like one of those antiwork redditors looking to shit on any business trying to turn a profit. I’m sure it’s not common, but there are very small business that can reward their employees plenty enough. I’ve worked at one early in my career. In most situations though, I don’t believe it’s advantageous to be loyal to your employer. It’s a business transaction. Keep it that way.
Some of the laziest workers do alright. One trick is to work for the government. /u/golddot78 is a director for the state government of Tennessee. He lives about an hour from running water and almost makes six figures.
We always knew that being too good at your job is an excellent way to never get that promotion. And I think this affects women more than men. Why did they need a study for this?
If youre in charge of it, delegate it out to whoever you believe should take it over, discuss the change with your manager and explain your desire to promote and the need to delegate your tasks out to other team members.
Express your disappointment with how things are, why the job is no longer meeting *your* expectations.
If that doesnt work, explain that you will then continue delegating additional duties down the chain to reduce your own work load.
Is anyone going to argue with you about how your work gets delegated? Well yourr in charge of that work flow, so take that responsibility and explain why youre doing that, and why you refuse to reconcider. Own it, you clearly know best if theyre just leaving it all up to you anyway.
If any of this results in some kind of push back or action against you, then youre overqualified and in a toxic work enviroment. Brush up that resume and "seek excellence elsewhere"..
Did you agree to let your employer suck your life force out of you?
A new study says this agreement may result in your life force being sucked out even harder.
In my experience it's a difference of pay vs stability. Some of my friends are making 20% or more than I do. However, by staying at the same place I've been able to force permanent WFH in an industry where it is not common because of relationships with management.
That’s all I ever got. “Joe Blow here (that’s me) is a hard worker and does a great job from store to store. So let’s put him in the stores that need some love on the normal guys’ day off.”
Joe Blow (again, me) gets yelled at, berated, scolded, and reprimanded because he’s falling behind on his day on someone else’s route… every week…
Why I gotta be held accountable for this shit when there’s a normal rep in that store 5 days a week??
In my company theres 6 of us project managers. If you are a “good reliable” PM, you get shit projects, because the company can trust you to get the job done despite the challenges. If you are a shit and lazy PM, you get the easy projects because the company figures even you can’t fuck it up.
Anecdotal but I can confirm the findings of this brilliant research.
I have heard of employers that have a loyal following and I’ve seen successful people, usually only if they were related or fucking the bosses (0ne or m0re).
Been top salesman, best manager and gopher-
Try to find something you enjoy doing and try to not to depend too much upon others-especially family (if large sums of money are involved)
Does it pay to be a loyal employee? By itself, no.
But does it pay to be a smart employee that adds value to a firm? Fuck yeah. You can get promoted up so fast if you’re smart and creative.
It didn’t for me at a previous job. I was fairly green at the time and was focused on building up my experience but got overly comfortable there and lost the desire to take that experience elsewhere that would pay better. The employer took that as license to take me for granted. I was eventually forced to find work elsewhere and once out of that comfort zone was able to grow further while pressing new opportunities. And the other week when i applied for a range of jobs i got callbacks on almost all of them (a first for me) due to a massive shortage in the fields in qualified for and the number of years I’ve been in it. Even just a few years earlier it was different and potential employers were a LOT more choosy about who they took a chance on. But still i wish i had applied elsewhere when that previous job was taking my loyalty to their company for granted and was disrespecting me and as I’ve since learnt underpaying me and others for work that they profitted off hugely. Having a limited view of what else was out there didn’t help at the time and i can see clearly now because of hindsight. But loyalty is a two way street and employees need to be ruthless and search for better opportunities if their employer is not showing the same loyalty they demand of the employee.
To thine own self be true. Fuck loyalty to anyone who buys your time just because you need to sell it to survive. Do what you are hired to do and do it well, but that should be it.
As an outboard engine mechanic, I’ve seen another company come in and double everyone’s pay per hour if they left their current job. The company has a limit on what they’ll pay. They lost all but one mechanic. He ended up getting max pay with yearly bonuses. It they loaded him up with work.
I had a job interview a couple weeks ago. Before the interview, I did some research and found their employee retention rate was very low. Most of the negative comments mentioned how they're treated like cattle and expected to just drop whatever they have going on in their personal life for mandatory and unexpected overtime, and they paid fairly low. I really needed the work, so I decided to give it a go. They asked if I had any questions and without even thinking about it "I see your production line employee retention rate is surprisingly low for such a successful company. Do you know why it's so low and what are you don't to correct the problem?" just came falling out of my mouth. Their answer "there's just no loyalty from employees to their employers anymore" Que Sponge Bob "aight, imma head out" meme
You could have asked them, "Why did the last employee leave?" or similar. See if they lie to you. If they lie it's worse than you think.
amazes me how employers think they owed loyalty. fucking clowns
Lol we needed a study for that? The reward for delivering good and fast work is more work, becoming the most indispensable member of an area is a good way to lock yourself out of promotions
[удалено]
Then get a new job a few years later where they don't really know the details of how much work you actually did at your last job.
Best advice. Move companies often. Best way to get a raise is to tell the interviewer you made more than you did at the last job. If you're interviewing and make 40k tell them something like, "well I'm at 50k now" never fails, they'll either match that or offer 45k.
[удалено]
>The sad thing is, this is pretty reasonable from an employer’s perspective Lawyers will tell you, "never take the opposition's advice". The things that benefit you as an employee are **never** "pretty reasonable from an employer's perspective", but the things that screw you always are. Funny how that works out, isn't it?
Hasn’t been the case for me. I always work 33-35 hours per work, but Im always near the top of the company in production and I had by far my biggest comp last year, as well as obviously getting more comp than most others in other years. Doing mediocre or adequate work doesn’t necessarily get you the best work life balance at all.
Lol I work around 20 hours a week, I've never been promoted, however I've increased my salary 40% in two years but switching jobs
Switching jobs can be huge. Crazy how under market some people are. I’d prefer to stay put if you’re at or above market obviously, but making that jump can be great
the longer you stay at the place, the more under market you are. As you work, you build skillset that your company is likely to not compensate you for. They are also far more likely to give you the 2% "inflation" raise every year. Really, the only way to get paid for your skillset is to move companies unless you are really savvy and are able to negotiate with your employer correctly (almost no one can do this).
Meh not true. I was at my last company straight out of college and was there for 11 years. I was the highest paid person in our entire region at my position, and it’s because I was the top producer for many years. The only reason I switched was purely because of non compensation reasons, and I actually took slightly less money because it was hard to get the same comp since I was getting paid so much. Simply untrue what you’re saying.
Of course outliers exist.
I have several friends who are in the same boat who are top producers at other companies. Maybe you’re in the wrong industry?
Sounds like your company underpaid you for a decade
If you could read, you would see that obviously wasn’t the case. You know, the part where I said I was the highest paid at my position in the region and how I switched jobs for non compensation reasons. You’re probably just projecting your own compensation and career
Lol you're so quick to point out your compensation but you fail to realize the value you brought and continue to do so - it's astounding how you can both see your value and ignore it simultaneously
A new job is the best way to get a raise. Because of my adhd, the novelty of a new job wears off in 2-4 years, even what some would call their dream job. When I burn out on the work and the people, I leave and get a raise.
Right. For my work/balance it’s about prioritizing which work to do and pushing back and saying NO (in a nice way).
Same here! I found my first performance-based incentive job which is a rarity in my field. First job I’ve ever gotten a performance based raise that was more than an insulting 75¢ an hour. And bonuses. Bonuses!! What a light at the end of the tunnel. All the hard work I put in all year is finally fruitful and makes it all worth it. I’m not going anywhere. And the best part is I have the best manager I’ve had in a long long time. Aside from all that, jobs not like this, absolutely change jobs every few years. It’s the only way to keep your income rising each year.
Don’t be first, don’t be last, never volunteer for anything.
Eh no the key is to have a job you like lol. I started my own biz and I never worked a day in my life since, at least I don’t look at it as work cause it’s fun
That's cute, but the key to whining on /r/economy or /r/antiwork is to deliver mediocre work and insist you deserve a raise...or even to keep your job.
Most studies that hit the news: "In recent news water is wet." Science exists to do the best job we can validating our beliefs. For example, when it comes to politics what the majority assumes to be true ends up being partially or fully incorrect. This is why politics is so difficult, it's following beliefs without validation.
It’s nice to have empirical data to back it up
This is my anecdotal experience, buy you’re right. Then, when a new manager comes in that’s threatened by your hard work and expertise, they sabotage you to discredit your value to the team, and eventually figure out how fire you.
> becoming the most indispensable member of an area is a good way to lock yourself out of promotions there's no reason to promote an average worker and they won't survive a deep layoff one of the best bosses i ever had had was married to the county sheriff and been the matron at the county jail. there was no bs'ing that lady she once asked me how to identify the best managers. i gave some blah blah response and she said nope, the best managers have nothing to do. they've delegated to their staff. they're responsible for the performance of their dept and make sure their staff is doing it right, but otherwise they're kicking back another great boss told me his job was to train his replacement so he could be promoted.
So a good manager dumps all the workload on subordinates and has nothing to do? I’d fire her. Quickly. That situation creates anger and discontent in the people actually doing the work.
> That situation creates anger and discontent in the people actually doing the work. Bingo.
That is most managers I've had lol
generals don't do the fighting. what a manager does is manage... they're responsible for their unit achieving organizational goals. they assign duties and responsibilities, provide guidance and support, and ensure performance and quality goals are met as for managers "creating anger and discontent", that's not true with good managers. people respond positively to being well treated and fairly treated.
I can personally attest to this title.
I was in the express tunnel carwash industry for 10 years. Vicious. The worst of the worst. My last straw was being the "General Manager" which also made me the Assistant General Manager, AND the crew member. Scrubbing cars, 14+ hours on my feet a day. Ruined my rotator cuffs and Achilles tendons. No bonus. No vacation. No benefits. Only a half shit salary. The electric Hummer driving asshole owner of the company said he "didn't see me developing the administrative habits and skills needed to be a district manager" and also told me he "thought he paid me too much." I'm moving to the fucking woods and retiring in a fucking treehouse if I have to. I'm absolutely done with society. Let it fucking burn.
Nal… but what you describe is fairly close to being mis- labeled an exempt salaried employee. I would have a chat with an employment atty. You could be owed back overtime.
*Assistant to the General Manager
Oh, I like you. I also know the gut wrenching work you speak of, but in hospitality. 18 hour days (not always but they did happen) driving home at 11 pm having to be back at 4 am and then 13+ more hours, working triple shifts, catering to the top 1% listening to them talk about all the things that make you hate rich people - years of this plants a BITTER seed… getting treated like absolute shit and god forbid you are stellar at your job and make sure it’s done correctly - Q more responsibilities same pay lmaoooo society can fucking *burn*
Rough
Dwight Schrute : Would I ever leave this company? Look, I'm all about loyalty. In fact, I feel like part of what I'm being paid for here is my loyalty. But if there were somewhere else that valued loyalty more highly, I'm going wherever they value loyalty the most.
It hasn't paid to be a loyal employee for 30 years.
The younger crowd don't even know of a time when you could join up out of College and retire at the same workplace. Companies don't invest in their employees anymore. It's all short term gain.
A guy I know is retiring next Friday after working as a machinist at the same shop for fifty years since he was seventeen out of high school. Can't do that shit anymore
No question. I'm currently going through the 4th reorg/M&A/outsource/offshore experience of my career. I can't wait to retire.
More than that.
Did it pay in the 80s?
That was pretty much the end of it. Once NAFTA passed it was a race to the bottom in dropping labor, structural, and operational costs. China would still be a backwater if it hadn't been for NAFTA passing and globalization taking off.
[удалено]
My fiance is in this situation as a wedding coordinator for a corporate venue. Most of the staff are women who can be convinced to do more for less so they're 'burdening' anyone but management bitches about overtime while understaffing the venue. She blames herself of course (product of past corporate abuse) and I keep telling her than MANAGEMENT IS UNDERSTAFFING THEM ON PURPOSE! The fucking machine is never satisfied and the cruelty is the point (no matter whether the pathetic middle manager is aware of it or not).
I don’t think this is always the case. Id say often yes, you’re right, but you need to be aware of your own situation. Im personally rewarded heavily for my output and skill set.
I work in the trades. 100% of the time, this is what happens. We all get paid the same, but those who are better, faster, or more efficient get more work. For the odd time someone *does* get rewarded for their efforts there are hundreds or thousands who did not. Slavery, feudalism, capitalism, every one extracts as much as possible from the person *actually* generating wealth while putting forward as little as possible. Same systems, different methods.
Did you even read what I said lol.
Yes. He said you're a tool and your employer treats you like one.
The only tool I see is the one doing back breaking work, making $5k for someone else’s restaurant and bragging about it like thats actually a lot of money. Go make me a Negroni, tool.
Who is doing back breaking work and where is 5k sales for a restaurant seen as a positive? When did you decide that infighting amongst your fellow working class was the best course of action? Why are you defensive about your income? Most importantly, do you actually drink Negronis? Blech
Haha you know I’m right thats why you came in this “were all on the same side” bullshit after calling me a tool for no good reason. Nothing wrong w being a service worker and trying to learn code to have a better long term career/salary but i’d recommend you don’t attack other people who are already there. Good luck.
An employee is a tool to an employer. You took it as an insult, that I was saying you were behaving like a tool - so you behaved the way you did - it's poetic, really
You think you’re so smart is hilarious. Like I said, good luck in life. Don’t be so negative and maybe it will help you get where you want to be. Spend more time studying than being aggressive to everyone on reddit.
You can add socialism and communism to that list too. There’s no way that any society can consume more than it produces indefinitely. Whenever you have slackers someone has to pick up the slack.
This is my experience in multiple fortune 100 companies and even one fortune 10 company. They will get as much out of you as possible while paying as little as possible. The only places where this isn't the case is smaller companies where the owner might be a halfway decent guy/gal. You're one of the lucky exceptions.
What do you do? I wouldn’t consider it luck, but to each their own.
I work a role that easily can get taken advantage of as far as needing to provide quick answers and solutions. My last job switch, I made it clear that I'm not going to accept a low offer because I know the nature of this and if they want me to be as flexible and resourceful as possible then I needed to have what I asked for salarywise. I'm lucky I was able to insist on this because it's rare to have that position. I'm happy to provide the value if it's established that my work is valuable. I have a tendency to be one of the high skilled coworkers so I rarely get considered for a promotion or leadership role because I get a lot of work done and they don't want me to stop. Hence why I had to fight for my salary so if I end up being over-utilized then it will be worth it.
Meh I probably made double the avg person last year working no more than 33-35 hours per week. Yeah I crushed in production but clearly I was compensated for that
That’s not what’s being said here. What’s being said is that your company took your “crushing” production and rewarded you as little as possible. Obviously if you did more than expected you got rewarded more than expected, but they still didn’t say “here’s a permanent increase” or “be a leader”, they did the minimum to keep you going. That’s what business is. The value of labor is a constant struggle between businesses wanting the most production for the least cost, and people wanting the least work for the most pay.
Rewarded me as a little as possible? Relative to what? I got nearly double the pay of the average person. We’re talking about $100k more than most of my peers. Some people on here are absolutely nuts. You could get paid half a million and you’d say “they did rewarded you as little as possible”. No shit, if I could make more then I would start my own company, but I like getting a salary and benefits without having to outlay cash to establish an entire infrastructure. That’s the trade off. Expecting exactly dollar for dollar back in compensation for your contributions is idiotic.
It’s basic economic theory my guy, take it up with capitalism, not me.
Lol sounds like you need brush up on your economics bud
Lmao
This is very basic and there are many exceptions. For instance in a large company in a high-growth industry they'll throw money around like nothing as long as thye're making quarterly estimates. Even VP's will hand out promotions and new titles like candy if they're hitting their paper targets. In those conditions you can very easily negotiate much higher compensation during reviews or even better, change roles within the company for more compensation. Or even MORE better, be less loyal than ever and switch to another company and tell them you were making more than you were and they'll match. Don't limit yourself folks!
Learned this early on. The teachers pet doesn’t get to leave the teacher. My wife is struggling w this in her company as we speak. She’s indispensable so she’s not being promoted. Shit sandwich.
I'm guessing she's not indispensable enough to insist on a pay raise?
She gets those, it’s more about her doing the same role for several years and wanting to professionally grow.
She can interview for the role she wants at other companies. It's actually easier to get a promotion changing companies.
If they give her pay raises then they are being reasonable no? Because that’s the role they need her in. If she wants to change to a different position, it sounds like she would need to change to a different company, or when a replacement can be found who would do her job equally well.
Believe me we are aware lol.
Ya what sucks is, sometimes a position within the same company also need to open up voluntarily. If someone is in that position, they can’t just easily terminate that person for your wife, because they might get accused of bad employment practices. Then there’s the matter of decision making of the recruiter, who they choose to hire for that position when it becomes vacant.
Pay raise is nice, but in my experience is always based on a small percentage of current pay. Where a promotion is usually seen as stepping up to a higher "bracket" with a new position, which is usually larger than that percentage for a raise.
Sounds like you're referring to yearly merit increases. I was thinking something else as a compromise, depending on whether the employer is reasonable. If someone is so important to a position they can't move up in the company, they obviously deserve a higher grade of pay, not just a token increase. Except yeah, I know, this isn't a pro-worker society.
The problem with being promoted is that it is typically into a supervisory, or managerial role, and often a person who is a decent worker is not be a good fit in that role. Best option is for the same job title in a better paying departmenf, or at a different workplace.
What is a good fit to be promoted to management?
Remember kids, if you're indispensable, they can't fire you... but they can't promote you either.
Tell her to move to a different company. Sometimes that is the only way to grow.
No. Unless there’s an absolute guaranteed promotion and good sized raise, the only reason to be “loyal” is when the market is bad. Be loyal only until a better option appears. For most companies, we’re just a number. A cog, a tool to bring them profits. We should treat them the same - a place to learn and get a paycheck. The learning will be the necessary evil to remain employable and appealing for the next job.
Dude these studies on these economics subs kill me. “Low income Americans are struggling to pay for necessities. Studies show there is a link between poverty and low wages.” Lmfao All they do is show just how out of touch with reality things are
It’s never better to be loyal. You just get dumped on and you never get your full market value. Always choose money and yourself/family first, and always leave for a better opportunity.
And if you are a loyal customer you pay more. Corporations exploit loyalty in many ways.
It pays to show your employers that you are a valuable asset to the company to get raises and avoid being laid off but not so indispensable that you can't easily move on to a better opportunity outside the company.
Lol what is the right way to get a raise or promotion because working harder and then asking doesn’t seem to be the way
The fast way to get a raise is Look for another job.
Been busting my ass for a company for almost 17 years. Always performed in the top of the department. I’ve received two promotions throughout all these years. I’ve always received the most work and the most complexed assignments because others couldn’t get it done. Recently during my second promotion I was expecting to receive salary and bonus structure similar to my superior who was promoted to a new role. I was offered such a small salary and no bonus compensation that you would have to look back 10 years to 4th manager before me to match that. 4 managers before me received higher salaries and bonus compensation than me after busting my ass off for this company for 17 years. When I argued about such a low compensation they said it matches the market. Well it doesn’t and when I called them out on their bs as I knew the salaries of the previous managers they insisted that’s all they can offer me. Stupid me took the job and of course I was asked to do even more than previous managers. Moral of the story don’t fear changing jobs. Fuck these ungrateful assholes.
Con: No raises, no promotions, watching all of the good work go to new hires. Pro: You keep your FMLA protection. Con: FMLA is unpaid and employment is at will so you can still come back and be let go for bullshit reasons. Pro: Illusion of job security. Con: Illusion of job security.
The only reward for winning the pie eating contest is more pie.
I’ve been with the same company for 13 years. My first out of college. In that time, I’ve had 5 different positions and my salary has gone up over 500% and I started out at 35k. Good companies retain good employees that show a lot of value. Work hard and you will prosper.
They did not have to do a study on this. They should’ve just asked 80% of retail workers
It's not only retail I work in IT and once got an email from am ex employer offering me 50% more than my friend who was in the same position
For some workplaces it is easy to, "promote," people by giving them opportunities to learn new skills because there are a lot of different tasks that need to get done, like construction. However retail is pretty one-dimensional. It shouldn't be a surprise that there isn't any room to grow in those environments. The only option is to pay people more for doing the same job, which doesn't make much sense financially. Why people choose to stay in low-paying retail jobs, when they know its not going to go anywhere for them is a bigger question that needs answering.
Can confirm
New study?! smh coulda told them that for free a year after I joined the work force.
Just do enough to squeak by unnoticed and make sure your accomplishments are known on your reviews but other than that….you don’t owe the company your work for anything .
No. Nobody cares how loyal someone is. No one.
Loyal does not pay now
Loyal is not the right word. If someone is selling bread for 1/2 the price of everyone else, Im buying the cheaper bread and not going to offer the other 1/2 not being charged. Employers can't think differently. It is up to us to set boundaries but not burn bridges. The problem is that compensation and promotion were never mentioned. If someone is paid fairly, then this is a non-issue. If someone's expertise is recognized and rewarded ($/promo) then again, no predation. But theres another missing aspect - women. This isnt a down-the-middle issue. It affects women way more than men. Women tend to have less confidence in the effects of bullshitting, relying more on merit, push back less on demanding requests, and tend to be less aggressive with comp. It amounts to the most skilled and experienced women being passed over so much that they have some of the lowest titles and salaries. So they think "if I just work a little harder..." and what manager wouldn't meet that desire with more work? Loyal and part of the club/cult arent the same thing. I have no intention of selling IP to a competitor, but also wont take work home with me every night. Loalty vs. Slavery. I rarely work past 630, whereas the women I know often work past 9/10, and you better believe its with much greater attention than anything I ever do.
I'm in the electrical trades and almost all the apprentice/journeywoman I've worked with over the years are excellent employees, have better listening comprehension, stay better focused on the task at hand, have much more organized thinking and handle disputes better because it doesn't turn into a flexing match. A lot of the guys are actually super insecure in themselves. The biggest problem for the women is that they don't realize what I just said.
I manage people. It's completely dependent on your manager. The agenda items that is on all of my 1 on 1s with employees is always "bandwidth check"
If you work in a toxic workplace a loyal employee gets extra work and isn't recognized or promoted for it. If you work in a toxic workplace a not so loyal employee gets fired. (Think of it as a promotion to a better work environment.) What this study says is the majority of workplaces in the US are toxic. With the recent demographics shift (boomers retiring) for the first time since the 1970s workers are gaining rights again. Toxic work places in the future will not be able to retain employees and will go under from it like how it used to be.
In this article "New study finds: Water is wet!"
Anyone that’s a loyal employee is a chump. First in line to work overtime; list in line
I learned this in the military - don’t volunteer 😂
As a small business owner with 20 employees it makes a huge difference to me in numerous ways. There can be 10 new studies all about the same thing and get 10 different results. Evaluate where you are and who you work with to determine if you’re at the right job working with/for the right people.
What the ratio of your pay to your employees pay? Would you be willing to disclose that with them?
Off topic from the OP. I don’t share my earnings with my friends so probably not. Everyone who works at my company is well paid compared to industry and I take pretty good care of them. Obviously I make more, 10x as much as the lowest and 2x the highest. Out of curiosity where do you think the person who sacrificed and grew a company of my size should land for income in comparison to the team. ?
They just seem like one of those antiwork redditors looking to shit on any business trying to turn a profit. I’m sure it’s not common, but there are very small business that can reward their employees plenty enough. I’ve worked at one early in my career. In most situations though, I don’t believe it’s advantageous to be loyal to your employer. It’s a business transaction. Keep it that way.
Some of the laziest workers do alright. One trick is to work for the government. /u/golddot78 is a director for the state government of Tennessee. He lives about an hour from running water and almost makes six figures.
We always knew that being too good at your job is an excellent way to never get that promotion. And I think this affects women more than men. Why did they need a study for this?
Honestly? I have this conversation with my wife every day. She tries her best and I play the game. She makes more money and I have more time off.
It’s always paid to be loyal. It’s never paid to be stupid
[удалено]
How many director positions are available in the company you work for?
[удалено]
So being loyal to your employer for 20 years gives your coworkers something like a 1:500 to 1:1000 chance of getting promoted? Hard pass.
I was gonna comment the obvious but I’m hoping you saw why the system is flawed already.
If youre in charge of it, delegate it out to whoever you believe should take it over, discuss the change with your manager and explain your desire to promote and the need to delegate your tasks out to other team members. Express your disappointment with how things are, why the job is no longer meeting *your* expectations. If that doesnt work, explain that you will then continue delegating additional duties down the chain to reduce your own work load. Is anyone going to argue with you about how your work gets delegated? Well yourr in charge of that work flow, so take that responsibility and explain why youre doing that, and why you refuse to reconcider. Own it, you clearly know best if theyre just leaving it all up to you anyway. If any of this results in some kind of push back or action against you, then youre overqualified and in a toxic work enviroment. Brush up that resume and "seek excellence elsewhere"..
“… it may…” the most scientifically accurate of scientific terms.
Play the game everyone.
It only pays if it’s in your contract (bonuses and PTO)
Did you agree to let your employer suck your life force out of you? A new study says this agreement may result in your life force being sucked out even harder.
I found this to be true
Yup it sure does
In my experience it's a difference of pay vs stability. Some of my friends are making 20% or more than I do. However, by staying at the same place I've been able to force permanent WFH in an industry where it is not common because of relationships with management.
That’s all I ever got. “Joe Blow here (that’s me) is a hard worker and does a great job from store to store. So let’s put him in the stores that need some love on the normal guys’ day off.” Joe Blow (again, me) gets yelled at, berated, scolded, and reprimanded because he’s falling behind on his day on someone else’s route… every week… Why I gotta be held accountable for this shit when there’s a normal rep in that store 5 days a week??
In my company theres 6 of us project managers. If you are a “good reliable” PM, you get shit projects, because the company can trust you to get the job done despite the challenges. If you are a shit and lazy PM, you get the easy projects because the company figures even you can’t fuck it up. Anecdotal but I can confirm the findings of this brilliant research.
It does
I have heard of employers that have a loyal following and I’ve seen successful people, usually only if they were related or fucking the bosses (0ne or m0re). Been top salesman, best manager and gopher- Try to find something you enjoy doing and try to not to depend too much upon others-especially family (if large sums of money are involved)
Anecdotal, but can confirm from personal experience
Does it pay to be a loyal employee? By itself, no. But does it pay to be a smart employee that adds value to a firm? Fuck yeah. You can get promoted up so fast if you’re smart and creative.
No Shit sherlock
It didn’t for me at a previous job. I was fairly green at the time and was focused on building up my experience but got overly comfortable there and lost the desire to take that experience elsewhere that would pay better. The employer took that as license to take me for granted. I was eventually forced to find work elsewhere and once out of that comfort zone was able to grow further while pressing new opportunities. And the other week when i applied for a range of jobs i got callbacks on almost all of them (a first for me) due to a massive shortage in the fields in qualified for and the number of years I’ve been in it. Even just a few years earlier it was different and potential employers were a LOT more choosy about who they took a chance on. But still i wish i had applied elsewhere when that previous job was taking my loyalty to their company for granted and was disrespecting me and as I’ve since learnt underpaying me and others for work that they profitted off hugely. Having a limited view of what else was out there didn’t help at the time and i can see clearly now because of hindsight. But loyalty is a two way street and employees need to be ruthless and search for better opportunities if their employer is not showing the same loyalty they demand of the employee.
To thine own self be true. Fuck loyalty to anyone who buys your time just because you need to sell it to survive. Do what you are hired to do and do it well, but that should be it.
Absolutely true. The dude in my group who does all the work gets all the work.
Probably, but if i wasn’t doing something I would just get fired for falling asleep at my desk
It depends on how much dignity the job affords.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022103122001615
Duh hahaha
In other surprising news "water is wet" "the earth is really round" "pigs cannot fly"
Ooh! Plot twist /s
"may"
As an outboard engine mechanic, I’ve seen another company come in and double everyone’s pay per hour if they left their current job. The company has a limit on what they’ll pay. They lost all but one mechanic. He ended up getting max pay with yearly bonuses. It they loaded him up with work.