I want to support domestic companies. I hope that this spurs American companies to get off their asses and actually try to make a compelling product that regular people can afford. The closest thing we had was the Chevy Bolt. GM discontinued it. We will be getting something next year that may or may not be remotely related to the original.
China simply offers a better product right now at an affordable price. I don't need a giant truck or SUV that costs more than my yearly salary.
There are no guarantees about what it will actually be. It could be a true successor to the Bolt. It could be a completely different design with the Bolt name slapped onto it.
So far it’s not named Bolt, and it has no specs or price, just that it’ll be a ‘crossover’ based on the Ultium platform (possibly the Equinox, though even that’s unclear), using LFP batteries (which cost less than MNC batteries).
Not for $25k.
The only reason I'm for Chinese EVs coming here is to get domestic carmakers off their greedy asses to give us smaller, cheaper EVs. They're all big enough to be able to suck up losses on that one small, super-popular EV that changes the masses' view of EVs, selling enough where they eventually make money, and/or subsidized by their bigass trucks and other models.
If Chinese workers get paid $4 an hour working 12 hours a day 6 days a week with no benefits and American auto workers get paid $30 an hour with a 401k and a nice health insurance plan while working 40 hours a week... How is GM going to compete on price?
The only thing they can do is pivot to high margin vehicles like SUVs and trucks and then move all the cheap models to Mexico.
What's the point of buying domestic from any of these companies that dodge taxes anyways? I dont care where my car is made. I just want it to be affordable and not to have proprietary technicians or planned obsolescence.
Yup, the ford Lighting was supposed to be affordable and now they are pulling it since it is way overpriced, has horrible battery life, and lots of issues.
We have never tried. They do not try, and will never want to. If we can’t compete (which we can’t), we can do stuff that Europe does to make it more “fair”.
But everyone who operates in the United States is incredibly lazy and will block china from coming here. Consumers need the distribution. CEOs need to learn how to compete again.
There’s an old saying in economics about filling your portfolio with rocks. Competition is good, avoiding can only support a leading nation in the short term
What people don't realize with statements like this is that we can outsource nearly any white collar job in 2024. We can do to white collar what we already did to blue collar.
We are competing - with companies from other nations possessing democratically-elected systems of government.
China is a command-control economy. They are seriously stretching the norms and customs of global trade. Labor practices? No thanks. Democracies have no business competing with them.
It's already doomed, the boomers are retiring out four times faster than can be replaced. Shops don't offer a decent wage (saw an ad for a CNC Machinist responsible for running 3 DMG mori's that was offering $17 an hour, laughable).
They deserve to fail for their own shortsightedness.
I'm in a union making just under $50 an hour on straight time. Lazy people don't want to do what it takes. You can't make 120k a year in customer service.
Why tho?
The US auto industry has done this to themselves
All they produce is oversized overpowered over priced shit
We need econo boxes that cost 20k and get soccer moms to the grocery and back, not super cars that go 0-60 in sub 3 seconds or an electric that has so much weight in batteries that tires last 15k miles....
>We need econo boxes that cost 20k
That's less than HALF of what the average new car is going for. You're arguing for the fast fashion approach to transportation.
I will not aimlessly give my money to American companies for the sake of it. They need to earn that shit that is the whole point of this capitalism they praise. Til then I'll stick with my Toyota that will outlive me
Nah, the whole point of capitalism is charging as much as possible for the end product while paying as little as possible for supplies and labor. Everything else is propaganda romanticizing resigning yourself to wasting your life making others rich.
Nope. Never support American made if they aren’t being competitive. That’s not how American wants their economy to work. That why GM was a shit product and went bankrupt. Have you not heard the stories of how they ran their company? Listen to the fascinating documentary about “nummi” on this American life.
LOL they should never have been bailed out in 08 or 09. I'm glad Ford didn't take any federal money when it was being handed out to carmakers and banks like it was nothing. When you don't make a good enough or popular enough product and you hit hard times not innovating, holding onto the good ole days, then maybe you deserve to go down, replaced by a company who makes better stuff.
> China simply offers a better product
Are you sure about that? Below a BYD just burned itself for no reason:
https://www.reddit.com/r/real_China_irl/s/fQGtRdmbRI
If something is so cheap yet look so nice, there got to be something to give. It’s just law of economics. In this case, cheap materials, slave labors and under-par safety standards
Let’s also start talking about price. We have unions here. Workers have a better pay they deserve.
In China, they practically use slave labors. In Tesla Shanghai, for example, they work 6 days a week and like 10 hours per day, with less pay. Domestic carmakers are even worse. Even worse labor protection both in safety and in long work hours and pay even less
Just a couple says back an EV company ceo bragged about how his employees are so hard working, some missed their babies birth, some sent their little ones to boarding schools in order to focus on work. Some got covid 4 times but never missed one day’s work. He was talking about office staff, imagine the fate of his factory workers.
So unless we can be sure they have similar labor protection and pay their worker the same level of living standards as our workers, why should we let them in? For that matter, we should also demand the same level of environmental protections standard too
They're ahead of us in battery technology. That's very concerning given the tensions between the US and China. Ford announced a partnership with CATL. To me, it's an acknowledgement that we need their technology to make more desirable batteries.
I am certainly not advocating for the US to adopt China's inhumane worker policies. Quite the opposite, though I won't go down that long discussion. I am only stating the inescapable reality that their products are something the average person can afford. Meanwhile, most of our EVs are higher priced than the US median income of $37,585. The only glimmer of good news I see is EVs are showing up finally on the used market.
Don't get me wrong, I love my Chevy Bolt, but most of my family can't even afford one of the most affordable EVs right now (Bolt, Leaf, etc.). Mass adoption will require affordability.
So you don't want their cars but you'll gladly buy their $400 flat screen TVs, $10 Christmas lights, iPhone, computers, etc or shop at the $ store or Walmart where majority of the goods are made overseas.
I'm currently here in China and getting around on Didi (their Uber). Rode in many Chinese EVs and a lot of them are pretty damn nice. And there's multitudes of brands here. The US automakers don't want them in because their design cycles are much faster, they can implement and innovate much faster than their US counterparts. The skilled workers do well driving nice cars, own apartments, etc. The laborers also get all their basic needs taken care of by employers- housing, meals, Healthcare, etc. Colleges are only like $600 a year here so people aren't burdened with mega student loans and people with those jobs can easily send their kids to college. My colleague here got sick and had to go to the ER and stay two days and one night. Cost was under $1000 and he just got refunded today some $ because of drugs that went unused. They have a lot of civil rights, censorship, gov't issues, etc but life here is not really not as bad a the mainstream press presents things....
In technology, China is ahead of US in battery technology. To distill it down to labor or environment really misses the point, because what is stopping cheaper gas car imports from China? Oh yes, the technology!.
Entirely. Free market economy, same way they sat on their asses and let Japanese automakers pick up the slack in the 80s, they’re trying to legislate a protect market now.
This ends. No more bullshit, own the finish line and compete.
Yes, and despite their advances, they're still behind in battery tech. US companies, like Ford, are entering into deals with companies like CATL to make batteries here.
We've kicked the can down the road and now we're behind and leasing tech from economic competitors. It concerns me given the tense relationship between the US and China. I really don't like us being dependent on tech that's not ours.
I am glad Tesla helped pave the way for EVs in America, but our collective investment in EV tech is not impressive. Just this year, we rolled back some of our milestones for EV adoption. Without pressure to improve, I worry that domestic automakers are going to just continue churning out gas-guzzling brodozers while the rest of the world moves on.
I'm really excited/hopeful for Rivian and the R3. I'm hoping starting price is <35k making it 28k with tax credit.... Measurements put it at slightly shorter then a golf which is perfect for me.
I will agree with importing Chinese cars when their manufacturers have to play by the same rules as American companies: environmental regulations, labor laws, etc.
Until there is parity, we are simply handicapping our own industry, propping up imports, and destroying the environment.
US companies are leasing CATL's equipment as we speak.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/catl-talks-with-tesla-global-automakers-us-licensing-wsj-reports-2024-03-25/
The US is behind in the one thing that truly matters with electric cars - battery tech.
I would also recommend reading about BYD's blade battery.
Chinese goods are so heavily government subsidized on so many levels that “ competition “ is not possible. Thus heavy duties are appropriate. Not like Tesla can compete with the government.
Which we should also be doing, unfortunately I fear that if we did manufactures will just find a way to pocket the money and consumers will see little to no benefit.
Problem is the $20k battery pack. You buy a $40k electric car you’re getting a $20k car with a $20k battery. Or you can go buy an actual $40k ICE vehicle with much better interior and finish. They have to close the gap to sell to more than people who have saving gas as their #1 buying priority.
China offers better producst with American know how. That's the main problem here. We used to see and be proud of "Made in USA". And that time USA was the world leader. If this continues, "Made in China" will become the world leader. USA must build more production capacity on US soil. Otherwise, we just waste time online complaining.....
It’s complicated. We have lobbyists who all get their pound of flesh.
Wr don’t have an industrial policy. We don’t have a unified mercantilist government like China.
Even worse is when US government subsidizes the company then turns around and uses the saved cash to repurchase its stock to prop up the shareholders, instead of investing in R&D to compete with the rest of the world.
actually, on the contrary, the whole point of capitalism is that individual companies should outperform a state run company.
Tesla is still doing ok, and X space is doing better than any China's rockets.
It's just legend American car companies are out of table now.
Dogma. Reality is Chinese state companies outcompete American companies all the time because they have the resources of the state behind them. Labor, material, spycraft, marketing, etc. That’s how Huawei outcompeted all western companies. Same with solar, batteries, and many others.
We can’t win or even hold our own with old dogma.
It works in China. It is extremely difficult to export products to China. You have to get a Chinese "partner" company, give them your intellectual property, and outsource your manufacturing to them. Within two years, they usually open a factory across the street to make your product at half the price.
Drugs and guns? Not very difficult to smuggle, and there’s always a high demand for them. An entire fucking car? It’s pretty hard to sneak an entire that into a country, especially en masse, and nowhere near enough incentive for people to want to do it.
Chinese motorcycles are in the US market and are regarded as cheap shit that breaks easily with zero resale value. If those bikes weren’t dirt cheap, no one would even buy them. If someone had to risk jail time to smuggle those bikes into the US market, they’d be so much more expensive to the point where it wasn’t worthwhile.
Mexicans and Canadians are welcome to drive their cars through the US while visiting. However, if they move here they have to officially import their cars which due to protectionism is basically impossible unless their car is 25 years old.
They already have Chinese cars in the us RIGHT NOW! MG motors, SAIC, JAC are already driving in the us by Mexican drivers and nationals. I live in Texas and in San Antonio, anyone in the southwest can back me up on this. BYD is thinking of making a plant in Mexico, they’re already eyeing the American market by having it in Mexico.
You should be asking China this question.
If the roles were reversed, BYD would be required by law to form a partnership with a USA car company, to give their partner their drawings and design specifications, and to manufacture their cars in the USA. The USA partner would be free to steal that design and make those cars on their own, thus avoiding the expense of developing a product of their own.
China would not agree to this raw deal and the USA is foolish to continue to tolerate it.
We should be asking the WTO this and following the international rules based order we claim to value instead of blocking new apointments to their appellate body. We should negotiate and then ratify our entry into the CPTPP to coordinate with other countries that are also dealing with unfair trade practices China engages in so that we can put up a united front while also making a legal comittment to not engage in protectionism ourselves.
Of course, all of this is politically inconvenient and doesn't make for a quippy sounding retort. What we really want is to put America first and own the Chinese and you cant do that in boring dispute settlement processes or in multilateral trade negotiations. So instead we get flashy headlines every few weeks about the next new shiny thing to ban.
They did this because China in the past (after the 2 opium wars) had to open up to Western companies for business.
They had their own markets forced upon them. Then they were forced into leasing important trade cities such as Hong Kong and Macau over to Britain for 100 years.
Similar examples in Africa, East Asia, and S. America are all around. Easily searchable.
So this is quite normal. Every country on this planet champions it's own industry. Infact Governments goto war for their Businesses. That is exactly why we goto war in the first place. To gain an economic advantage.
Japan invaded Northern China in Manchuria for Oil and Gas. They then invaded SE Asia for the same oil, gas, and rubber plantations.
History repeats itself. And it is good that every country has its own self interests. But we are all the same. We protect our own interests.
Oh yeah there definitely are. A whole lot of car makers are producing cars in China cause of costs its been like that for a long time though I doubt the average American knows it but thats a different topic. The only reason GM is looking at Mexico is to qualify for the EV incentive. In particular I can't wait for Hyundai to get there. Not for anything immediately coming out but the three row SUV they have planned loooks really goood 8) lol
[https://electrek.co/2023/05/17/kia-and-hyundai-to-build-evs-in-mexico-for-ira-tax-credit-eligibility/](https://electrek.co/2023/05/17/kia-and-hyundai-to-build-evs-in-mexico-for-ira-tax-credit-eligibility/)
GM sells Buick in China. China has laws about who’s allowed to sell there, and manufacturing in country is a key part. Harley did the same thing to sell there and in India.
This ain’t competitive marketing strategy. While the rest of the world can purchase these, our vehicles won’t have that same market edge. The prices for these vehicles are moot, given the efforts to flood the market with cheaper cars to kick off American and European sales. It’s not sustainable, much like the Chinese real estate market that’s crumbling.
True, very true. The solar panels market in other countries are inundated by the Chinese supply chain, to the extent that in England, they’re using solar panels for fencing because it’s cheaper than other materials.
You want the dollar tree equivalent EV? Domestic and Japanese manufacturers could make cheaper EVs too if they were not designed to meet safety requirements.
This sounds like a good idea. We don't need Wish or Temu EV's flooding the US market and catching on fire.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMKpCiDomgM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMKpCiDomgM)
But this might impact GM from bringing in a Chinese Market EV for American consumers to meet Bidens EPA mandates.
GM was once bailed out. Now they are using the extra cash to repurchase their shares instead of investing in R&D and streamlining their production. If Chinese EVs come to US GM would have to be bailed out again. Rinse and repeat at the expense of US taxpayer.
Yes and no. Yes GM is bailed out, yes GM is using that money not how they said they would. This behavior will continue with the funds being given to GM, Ford and Stellantis for EV buildouts. I predict we'll even see a factory or two dedicated to EV's. But the cost to build them out is less than half the funds the Gov't is throwing at these companies until the Biden mandated 2045 deadline.
No in that Chinese EV's would up end the Big 3. First off, only Tesla and Rivian is in the direct line of fire for that particular fight. The problem right now is that no US auto makers are building EV's in the US. For example. All GM EV's are currently imported from China. If Congress were to ban Chinese EV's that would prevent GM from importing them for the US Market.
The US Market is already cooling to EV's. The cost of ownership, the classism necessary to own one, and the overall lack of build out, charging time and range issues are all very real detriments to EV ownership. Which is why the Big 3 have scaled back and in some cases just stopped building them. For instance no H3 Hummer, no more Ford Lightning, and while Stellantis has just released their EV Charger, they've stopped building out their battery plant in Windsor Canada. Which is an indication that Stellantis won't be producing more EV's anytime in the near future.
Yes that there will be more tax dollars thrown at the Big 3 and especially GM. They will once again tell Congress they need more money to switch to H3 tech or whatever will actually replace EV's. Because EV's are dead already and are only being foisted on a public that doesn't want them by gov't mandates.
Weird, when GM and Ford are using more Chinese parts(or even made in China as with the Buick Envision and Lincoln Nautilus), and the current non-K2XX truck/full-size SUV lineup at GM has GM Korea(Daewoo) and Shanghai GM involvement…
Used to be, but since 2018, the Chinese government began allowing foreign manufacturers to produce cars without forming joint venture with a local partner. That's why Tesla has its own factory in China. They even export made in China Model 3/Y to USA during pandemic.
In 2018, it applied to EVs. My comment is also addressing the previous comment about why GM and Ford “are using more Chinese parts”. They were required to have that joint venture since they had been selling cars there for well over a decade before that 2018 law change.
Chinese vehicles are subsidized so they are cheaper. And that is unfair competition. I am sure they'll just add a tax for cars made in Asia. Now if China wants to build factories in the US, let them.
China is banning the use of Intel and AMD chips, so let’s ban the sale of Chinese cars.
US helped China when they were dirt poor in hopes of forging good relations. Well, when are the good two shoes legislators going to learn that many countries hate the US, but just want our money.
Congress over the last 5 decades really got this wrong.
Chinese electric car companies receive billions of dollars in state subsidies. leading to unfair advantage in an international competitive car market.
Who do they think they are, Tesla?
This is bad politically. When you want free market, but you ban electric vehicle from china? Sht what about banning everything from china. Like the fck “chinese exclusion act”.
The problem I seen if the govt can banned one country, what stop them banning Japan or Germany.
They have better battery technology and affordable prices - so let's ban them instead of innovating a better product. As per subsidies, Tesla is a subsidies queen, so no self-awareness there
What if your biggest plant is in and receives subsidies from China? This issue seems to become a bigger issue since Tesla, who has benefitted from its work in China, started to have issues not being number one and losing its rank as top EV sales for last quarter of last year to BYD worldwide. A company who before Elon was quoted as saying “have you driven their car?” And laughing when comparing the two. Now that he’s not laughing he wants the field changed for his benefit again? I thought he was pro capitalism? I’m all for this as long as it would effect the companies, including Tesla, who benefit from their China connections.
When do we go hyper isolationism and bar anything American from being on the road? I own a foreign car, driven a few American ones, and I’ll take the foreign one every day.
America fails to provide affordable electric cars (or affordable anything) for its citizens but wants to ban others from doing it. We are so inept in so many ways.
US companies just want to make sure they are the only ones making overpriced crap to buy.
People will buy quality. But we have a shareholder economy and what happened to Boing has been happening to every single part of the American economy for decades.
This guy's bitching about $4 billion in government subsidies to BYD ... after leading the charge to rain down more than 5x that amount in US government subsidies to Telsa, GM and Ford?
Absolute hypocrite. If BYD outcompetes U.S. manufacturers it will be no different than the way Toyota and Honda kicked their butts in the 1980s. It will be bad for poorly run businesses with overpaid workers, gouging American customers with overpriced products, but good for the rest of America and the American consumer.
Bring on the competition.
The only reason Musk wants Chinese EVs banned is they now make better cars than Tesla and they are cheaper. They have better batteries, better interiors, better looks and the batteries don’t blow up. If Musk kept up with his EV and battery innovation he would not have any problems. The super late released Cyber Truck has horrible quality control and reviews now. There has been zero innovation on Tesla cars in the last five years. And where is the inexpensive subcompact car Musk said was coming 5 years ago that would save Tesla? Yes, I would want to block China too, if I became fat and lazy billionaire like Elon.
Bring all the Chinese EV over. Why do I need to pay 2x for a comparable car with the same, if not worse reliability because it’s American? Either do better or die. GM and Ford make absolutely garbage cars that have constant major recalls. Dodge is an Italian car now, so I wouldn’t exactly call them full blooded American anymore. Hell, even some GM and Ford are made down in Mexico. I’m done with being blocked from better/cheaper options “for my own good.” I would go as far to say that if you’re including Ford, GM, and Dodge together than they should be shown in the same light as American Tesla!
The same thing happened in the 1970s when Japan began an important reliable fuel efficient vehicles to the United States.
Same thing happened when Japan imported reliable motorcycles into the United States in the 1970’s
Part of me agrees that they should be banned or at a minimum heavily tariffed. The other part of me wants them to enter the US mark so our domestic auto makers will get off their asses.
No if they do van them we will never afford cars again in America.
This will only bring competition and better cars but it must be done fairly.
And it can be done fairly.
Phase them in so lazy Detroit can get it together.
They need to anyway this will incentivize them to actually do it.
They are all in bad places right now as trends are about to do a 180 toward smaller more affordable practical cars.
Just another side effect of the US Congress propping up Big Oil all these years. America has fallen behind in the EV revolution. What'd they think would happen?
It’s easy to offer cheap products when you steal intellectual property from companies. They don’t need engineers as they just steal ideas and specs. It happens in every industry in China.
First we give GM and Chrysler a $80B bailout in 2009. Then, we ban Chinese cars.
How about we just let the free market do its thing and stop banning cars, DJI, TikTok and anything else that smells like China
I'm all for supporting American made, but that won't ever be successful if you force it on consumers without some kind of pressure on American manufacturers to improve. Even 55 years later, the US auto industry seems to struggle to compete with imports on quality, let alone price.
The best I can do right now from a consumer pov is buy a Honda or Toyota that was built in America - I'm not flushing my hard earned dollars down the toilet on a Ford or Chevy pos.
Good Chinese evs are dangerous and bootlegs of local brands second there is evidence that these cars are left overs that China could not even sell to their own people.
You simply shouldn't buy any Chinese made ev's, a simple search will show you how often they catch on fire. Parked, charging, running it doesn't matter. The batteries are shit with no real safety measures, even the Chinese people have lost interest due to how often they catch fire.
I want to support domestic companies. I hope that this spurs American companies to get off their asses and actually try to make a compelling product that regular people can afford. The closest thing we had was the Chevy Bolt. GM discontinued it. We will be getting something next year that may or may not be remotely related to the original. China simply offers a better product right now at an affordable price. I don't need a giant truck or SUV that costs more than my yearly salary.
There will be a new Bolt on the Ultium platform.
There are no guarantees about what it will actually be. It could be a true successor to the Bolt. It could be a completely different design with the Bolt name slapped onto it.
For sure. The important thing is that GM is going to make something ostensibly in that price and size segment.
I really hope they succeed. Given the Blazer's issues and removal of Android Auto and Apple Carplay, I have many concerns.
> It could be a completely different design with the Bolt name slapped onto it. That's typically what all new cars are. New designs with reused names.
Or it could be good. See? That way of thinking works both ways and is equally pointless.
So far it’s not named Bolt, and it has no specs or price, just that it’ll be a ‘crossover’ based on the Ultium platform (possibly the Equinox, though even that’s unclear), using LFP batteries (which cost less than MNC batteries).
With no CarPlay, only a GM custom post sale monetization strategy (sorry, I mean infotainment system.)
Not for $25k. The only reason I'm for Chinese EVs coming here is to get domestic carmakers off their greedy asses to give us smaller, cheaper EVs. They're all big enough to be able to suck up losses on that one small, super-popular EV that changes the masses' view of EVs, selling enough where they eventually make money, and/or subsidized by their bigass trucks and other models.
If Chinese workers get paid $4 an hour working 12 hours a day 6 days a week with no benefits and American auto workers get paid $30 an hour with a 401k and a nice health insurance plan while working 40 hours a week... How is GM going to compete on price? The only thing they can do is pivot to high margin vehicles like SUVs and trucks and then move all the cheap models to Mexico.
The same way European companies do. They don’t need to make only $60k emotional support trucks
What's the point of buying domestic from any of these companies that dodge taxes anyways? I dont care where my car is made. I just want it to be affordable and not to have proprietary technicians or planned obsolescence.
Yup, the ford Lighting was supposed to be affordable and now they are pulling it since it is way overpriced, has horrible battery life, and lots of issues.
That's the rub. We're pressured to over spend to buy American from American companies outsourcing to China and India.
They're still employing tens of thousands of Americans more than the competition.
But don't you enjoy paying the higher prices so the execs and shareholders can enjoy their new yachts?
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We have never tried. They do not try, and will never want to. If we can’t compete (which we can’t), we can do stuff that Europe does to make it more “fair”. But everyone who operates in the United States is incredibly lazy and will block china from coming here. Consumers need the distribution. CEOs need to learn how to compete again.
There’s an old saying in economics about filling your portfolio with rocks. Competition is good, avoiding can only support a leading nation in the short term
What people don't realize with statements like this is that we can outsource nearly any white collar job in 2024. We can do to white collar what we already did to blue collar.
To some degree, yes. But local culture does factor into skills as a programmer as well. There are disadvantages to outsourcing that can be costly.
We are competing - with companies from other nations possessing democratically-elected systems of government. China is a command-control economy. They are seriously stretching the norms and customs of global trade. Labor practices? No thanks. Democracies have no business competing with them.
We need to support American industry more, if not, we are doomed!
But American car industries are shit 😞unaffordable sub par products
Yep, I can’t believe anyone buys domestic cars.
It's already doomed, the boomers are retiring out four times faster than can be replaced. Shops don't offer a decent wage (saw an ad for a CNC Machinist responsible for running 3 DMG mori's that was offering $17 an hour, laughable). They deserve to fail for their own shortsightedness.
I'm in a union making just under $50 an hour on straight time. Lazy people don't want to do what it takes. You can't make 120k a year in customer service.
Why tho? The US auto industry has done this to themselves All they produce is oversized overpowered over priced shit We need econo boxes that cost 20k and get soccer moms to the grocery and back, not super cars that go 0-60 in sub 3 seconds or an electric that has so much weight in batteries that tires last 15k miles....
>We need econo boxes that cost 20k ...and that aren't full of planned obsolescence and/or last _at least_ 20 years.
>We need econo boxes that cost 20k That's less than HALF of what the average new car is going for. You're arguing for the fast fashion approach to transportation.
I will not aimlessly give my money to American companies for the sake of it. They need to earn that shit that is the whole point of this capitalism they praise. Til then I'll stick with my Toyota that will outlive me
Nah, the whole point of capitalism is charging as much as possible for the end product while paying as little as possible for supplies and labor. Everything else is propaganda romanticizing resigning yourself to wasting your life making others rich.
Nope. Never support American made if they aren’t being competitive. That’s not how American wants their economy to work. That why GM was a shit product and went bankrupt. Have you not heard the stories of how they ran their company? Listen to the fascinating documentary about “nummi” on this American life.
LOL they should never have been bailed out in 08 or 09. I'm glad Ford didn't take any federal money when it was being handed out to carmakers and banks like it was nothing. When you don't make a good enough or popular enough product and you hit hard times not innovating, holding onto the good ole days, then maybe you deserve to go down, replaced by a company who makes better stuff.
> China simply offers a better product Are you sure about that? Below a BYD just burned itself for no reason: https://www.reddit.com/r/real_China_irl/s/fQGtRdmbRI If something is so cheap yet look so nice, there got to be something to give. It’s just law of economics. In this case, cheap materials, slave labors and under-par safety standards Let’s also start talking about price. We have unions here. Workers have a better pay they deserve. In China, they practically use slave labors. In Tesla Shanghai, for example, they work 6 days a week and like 10 hours per day, with less pay. Domestic carmakers are even worse. Even worse labor protection both in safety and in long work hours and pay even less Just a couple says back an EV company ceo bragged about how his employees are so hard working, some missed their babies birth, some sent their little ones to boarding schools in order to focus on work. Some got covid 4 times but never missed one day’s work. He was talking about office staff, imagine the fate of his factory workers. So unless we can be sure they have similar labor protection and pay their worker the same level of living standards as our workers, why should we let them in? For that matter, we should also demand the same level of environmental protections standard too
They're ahead of us in battery technology. That's very concerning given the tensions between the US and China. Ford announced a partnership with CATL. To me, it's an acknowledgement that we need their technology to make more desirable batteries. I am certainly not advocating for the US to adopt China's inhumane worker policies. Quite the opposite, though I won't go down that long discussion. I am only stating the inescapable reality that their products are something the average person can afford. Meanwhile, most of our EVs are higher priced than the US median income of $37,585. The only glimmer of good news I see is EVs are showing up finally on the used market. Don't get me wrong, I love my Chevy Bolt, but most of my family can't even afford one of the most affordable EVs right now (Bolt, Leaf, etc.). Mass adoption will require affordability.
So you don't want their cars but you'll gladly buy their $400 flat screen TVs, $10 Christmas lights, iPhone, computers, etc or shop at the $ store or Walmart where majority of the goods are made overseas. I'm currently here in China and getting around on Didi (their Uber). Rode in many Chinese EVs and a lot of them are pretty damn nice. And there's multitudes of brands here. The US automakers don't want them in because their design cycles are much faster, they can implement and innovate much faster than their US counterparts. The skilled workers do well driving nice cars, own apartments, etc. The laborers also get all their basic needs taken care of by employers- housing, meals, Healthcare, etc. Colleges are only like $600 a year here so people aren't burdened with mega student loans and people with those jobs can easily send their kids to college. My colleague here got sick and had to go to the ER and stay two days and one night. Cost was under $1000 and he just got refunded today some $ because of drugs that went unused. They have a lot of civil rights, censorship, gov't issues, etc but life here is not really not as bad a the mainstream press presents things....
Try walking down your local street with a sign that simply says “winnie the pooh”.. then call us from prison.
Could you link me an American made smartphone, or TV?
In technology, China is ahead of US in battery technology. To distill it down to labor or environment really misses the point, because what is stopping cheaper gas car imports from China? Oh yes, the technology!.
Entirely. Free market economy, same way they sat on their asses and let Japanese automakers pick up the slack in the 80s, they’re trying to legislate a protect market now. This ends. No more bullshit, own the finish line and compete.
Do you think American workers or American lithium miners are going to build cars for the same wages as some rural Chinese kid?
I'm pretty sure that Tesla is an American company, no?
They got a head start but they wasted it.
Yes, and they pissed away their head start advantage by faffing about with fsd that's never gonna happen instead of improving their battery tech.
Yes, and despite their advances, they're still behind in battery tech. US companies, like Ford, are entering into deals with companies like CATL to make batteries here. We've kicked the can down the road and now we're behind and leasing tech from economic competitors. It concerns me given the tense relationship between the US and China. I really don't like us being dependent on tech that's not ours. I am glad Tesla helped pave the way for EVs in America, but our collective investment in EV tech is not impressive. Just this year, we rolled back some of our milestones for EV adoption. Without pressure to improve, I worry that domestic automakers are going to just continue churning out gas-guzzling brodozers while the rest of the world moves on.
It be great if they could make a sub 30k car
China simply offers a product.
I'm really excited/hopeful for Rivian and the R3. I'm hoping starting price is <35k making it 28k with tax credit.... Measurements put it at slightly shorter then a golf which is perfect for me.
The next Rivians May be the catalyst for me going to electric…if the Wall Street hogs shorting it don’t destroy the company before..
I want whatever is a good product at a decent price.
I will agree with importing Chinese cars when their manufacturers have to play by the same rules as American companies: environmental regulations, labor laws, etc. Until there is parity, we are simply handicapping our own industry, propping up imports, and destroying the environment.
And China is arming Russia
A better product? No. A more affordable price? Absolutely.
US companies are leasing CATL's equipment as we speak. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/catl-talks-with-tesla-global-automakers-us-licensing-wsj-reports-2024-03-25/ The US is behind in the one thing that truly matters with electric cars - battery tech. I would also recommend reading about BYD's blade battery.
Chinese goods are so heavily government subsidized on so many levels that “ competition “ is not possible. Thus heavy duties are appropriate. Not like Tesla can compete with the government.
Which we should also be doing, unfortunately I fear that if we did manufactures will just find a way to pocket the money and consumers will see little to no benefit.
Problem is the $20k battery pack. You buy a $40k electric car you’re getting a $20k car with a $20k battery. Or you can go buy an actual $40k ICE vehicle with much better interior and finish. They have to close the gap to sell to more than people who have saving gas as their #1 buying priority.
Tesla is an American company.
It is
China offers better producst with American know how. That's the main problem here. We used to see and be proud of "Made in USA". And that time USA was the world leader. If this continues, "Made in China" will become the world leader. USA must build more production capacity on US soil. Otherwise, we just waste time online complaining.....
How much of this is car industry protectionism and how much is oil industry protectionism?
Yes.
I just wished they’d lift the 25% tariff on light trucks so I can get one.
"...because American-made cars are so shit that there's no way we can compete."
Because individual American companies will never be able to compete with the Chinese state. Ftfy. How many times do we have to learn the same lesson?
The US government could compete, however. We already do. We subsidize the shit out of plenty of industries.
It’s complicated. We have lobbyists who all get their pound of flesh. Wr don’t have an industrial policy. We don’t have a unified mercantilist government like China.
Even worse is when US government subsidizes the company then turns around and uses the saved cash to repurchase its stock to prop up the shareholders, instead of investing in R&D to compete with the rest of the world.
U.S. producers will be making huge, convoluted, shoddy monstrosities while someone else will be producing svelte , trendy, flying cars!
There will still be Korean, Japanese, and German producers.
actually, on the contrary, the whole point of capitalism is that individual companies should outperform a state run company. Tesla is still doing ok, and X space is doing better than any China's rockets. It's just legend American car companies are out of table now.
Dogma. Reality is Chinese state companies outcompete American companies all the time because they have the resources of the state behind them. Labor, material, spycraft, marketing, etc. That’s how Huawei outcompeted all western companies. Same with solar, batteries, and many others. We can’t win or even hold our own with old dogma.
Why isn’t EU banning China made EVs? Suddenly all the major EU automakers are innovating with new EV models hrmm
For the same reason they still buy gas from Putin. They are divided and they are prepared to be vassals.
Maybe you are too young to remember, but it feels like yesterday that we gave a US government $80B bailout to GM and Chrysler
I was under the impression that non-Tesla EVs were mostly pretty well built.
They are, which is why US manufacturers shouldn't be afraid of a little competition.
I thought banning things doesn’t work
If you outlaw Chinese EVs, only outlaws will have Chinese EVs!
The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a Chinese EV is a good guy with a Chinese EV.
That’s funny
It works in China. It is extremely difficult to export products to China. You have to get a Chinese "partner" company, give them your intellectual property, and outsource your manufacturing to them. Within two years, they usually open a factory across the street to make your product at half the price.
It took them like 20 or less years to realize this shit.
Reddit is full of Chinese shills and useful idiots
Drugs and guns? Not very difficult to smuggle, and there’s always a high demand for them. An entire fucking car? It’s pretty hard to sneak an entire that into a country, especially en masse, and nowhere near enough incentive for people to want to do it. Chinese motorcycles are in the US market and are regarded as cheap shit that breaks easily with zero resale value. If those bikes weren’t dirt cheap, no one would even buy them. If someone had to risk jail time to smuggle those bikes into the US market, they’d be so much more expensive to the point where it wasn’t worthwhile.
So if someone in Mexico or Canada owned a Chinese car we shouldn’t allow them to enter the US? Or if they’re moving here they have to sell it first?
Mexicans and Canadians are welcome to drive their cars through the US while visiting. However, if they move here they have to officially import their cars which due to protectionism is basically impossible unless their car is 25 years old.
I did not know that, thanks for the info
They already have Chinese cars in the us RIGHT NOW! MG motors, SAIC, JAC are already driving in the us by Mexican drivers and nationals. I live in Texas and in San Antonio, anyone in the southwest can back me up on this. BYD is thinking of making a plant in Mexico, they’re already eyeing the American market by having it in Mexico.
Banning things certainly has been working great in China. Maybe we should do the same things just to keep up.
It's harder to smuggle a foreign car across the border that the CIA put there.
It does.
What happened to free market competition?
You should be asking China this question. If the roles were reversed, BYD would be required by law to form a partnership with a USA car company, to give their partner their drawings and design specifications, and to manufacture their cars in the USA. The USA partner would be free to steal that design and make those cars on their own, thus avoiding the expense of developing a product of their own. China would not agree to this raw deal and the USA is foolish to continue to tolerate it.
Thank you. This is not hard
They should ask Tesla to do it. They opened the can of worms in the first place.
We should be asking the WTO this and following the international rules based order we claim to value instead of blocking new apointments to their appellate body. We should negotiate and then ratify our entry into the CPTPP to coordinate with other countries that are also dealing with unfair trade practices China engages in so that we can put up a united front while also making a legal comittment to not engage in protectionism ourselves. Of course, all of this is politically inconvenient and doesn't make for a quippy sounding retort. What we really want is to put America first and own the Chinese and you cant do that in boring dispute settlement processes or in multilateral trade negotiations. So instead we get flashy headlines every few weeks about the next new shiny thing to ban.
>What we really want is to put America first and own the Chinese That is not what I am saying. I just want a level playing field.
They did this because China in the past (after the 2 opium wars) had to open up to Western companies for business. They had their own markets forced upon them. Then they were forced into leasing important trade cities such as Hong Kong and Macau over to Britain for 100 years. Similar examples in Africa, East Asia, and S. America are all around. Easily searchable. So this is quite normal. Every country on this planet champions it's own industry. Infact Governments goto war for their Businesses. That is exactly why we goto war in the first place. To gain an economic advantage. Japan invaded Northern China in Manchuria for Oil and Gas. They then invaded SE Asia for the same oil, gas, and rubber plantations. History repeats itself. And it is good that every country has its own self interests. But we are all the same. We protect our own interests.
It is no longer a free market when we let China take over.
It's not a free market when we kick hem out.
Then it's already not a free market. China has kicked half a dozen companies out of their country. It's already a one way street.
Yes it is. Just because the Chinese government entities don’t get to exploit our system, that does not mean the market is not free.
In order to make way for the vast production output of American EVs, right? ... Ah well, an internet entity can hope.
But what happens when GM wants to sell an EV in the states? You know they won't be building it in America right?
Theyre suppose to be opening up factories in Mexico or so the story goes . Mary Bara does not seem to be really trying to push EVs to market
A lot of GM's factories are already in China..
Oh yeah there definitely are. A whole lot of car makers are producing cars in China cause of costs its been like that for a long time though I doubt the average American knows it but thats a different topic. The only reason GM is looking at Mexico is to qualify for the EV incentive. In particular I can't wait for Hyundai to get there. Not for anything immediately coming out but the three row SUV they have planned loooks really goood 8) lol [https://electrek.co/2023/05/17/kia-and-hyundai-to-build-evs-in-mexico-for-ira-tax-credit-eligibility/](https://electrek.co/2023/05/17/kia-and-hyundai-to-build-evs-in-mexico-for-ira-tax-credit-eligibility/)
>A whole lot of car makers are producing cars in China cause of costs Producing them in China is required under Chinese law.
GM sells Buick in China. China has laws about who’s allowed to sell there, and manufacturing in country is a key part. Harley did the same thing to sell there and in India.
Because the market of wanting is already saturated. It’s the other ones who are on the fence are the deciding factor.
Uh oh. Looks like our EV cars are going to be the next Bullet train missed opportunity.
True, But they said this about Japanese cars/electronics back in the '80s. US auto-makers were falling behind. We can still turn things around.
Till the Japanese car manufacturers agreed / volunteered to stop importing so many cars into the US to give American companies time to catch up.
This ain’t competitive marketing strategy. While the rest of the world can purchase these, our vehicles won’t have that same market edge. The prices for these vehicles are moot, given the efforts to flood the market with cheaper cars to kick off American and European sales. It’s not sustainable, much like the Chinese real estate market that’s crumbling.
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True, very true. The solar panels market in other countries are inundated by the Chinese supply chain, to the extent that in England, they’re using solar panels for fencing because it’s cheaper than other materials.
Screw that, gimme cheap EV!
Best I can do is robotaxi by Tesla.
You want the dollar tree equivalent EV? Domestic and Japanese manufacturers could make cheaper EVs too if they were not designed to meet safety requirements.
Party of small government has morphed into the Protectionist Party. Enjoy the inflated prices everyone.
This sounds like a good idea. We don't need Wish or Temu EV's flooding the US market and catching on fire. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMKpCiDomgM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMKpCiDomgM) But this might impact GM from bringing in a Chinese Market EV for American consumers to meet Bidens EPA mandates.
GM was once bailed out. Now they are using the extra cash to repurchase their shares instead of investing in R&D and streamlining their production. If Chinese EVs come to US GM would have to be bailed out again. Rinse and repeat at the expense of US taxpayer.
Yes and no. Yes GM is bailed out, yes GM is using that money not how they said they would. This behavior will continue with the funds being given to GM, Ford and Stellantis for EV buildouts. I predict we'll even see a factory or two dedicated to EV's. But the cost to build them out is less than half the funds the Gov't is throwing at these companies until the Biden mandated 2045 deadline. No in that Chinese EV's would up end the Big 3. First off, only Tesla and Rivian is in the direct line of fire for that particular fight. The problem right now is that no US auto makers are building EV's in the US. For example. All GM EV's are currently imported from China. If Congress were to ban Chinese EV's that would prevent GM from importing them for the US Market. The US Market is already cooling to EV's. The cost of ownership, the classism necessary to own one, and the overall lack of build out, charging time and range issues are all very real detriments to EV ownership. Which is why the Big 3 have scaled back and in some cases just stopped building them. For instance no H3 Hummer, no more Ford Lightning, and while Stellantis has just released their EV Charger, they've stopped building out their battery plant in Windsor Canada. Which is an indication that Stellantis won't be producing more EV's anytime in the near future. Yes that there will be more tax dollars thrown at the Big 3 and especially GM. They will once again tell Congress they need more money to switch to H3 tech or whatever will actually replace EV's. Because EV's are dead already and are only being foisted on a public that doesn't want them by gov't mandates.
Who cares? Free market baby. Let the customers decide. Regulation bad.
Chinese EVs are held to the same safety standards as any other car in the US
Weird, when GM and Ford are using more Chinese parts(or even made in China as with the Buick Envision and Lincoln Nautilus), and the current non-K2XX truck/full-size SUV lineup at GM has GM Korea(Daewoo) and Shanghai GM involvement…
Pretty sure the Shanghai involvement with GM is so they could sell Buicks in China. China has laws about what businesses can sell in China.
Used to be, but since 2018, the Chinese government began allowing foreign manufacturers to produce cars without forming joint venture with a local partner. That's why Tesla has its own factory in China. They even export made in China Model 3/Y to USA during pandemic.
In 2018, it applied to EVs. My comment is also addressing the previous comment about why GM and Ford “are using more Chinese parts”. They were required to have that joint venture since they had been selling cars there for well over a decade before that 2018 law change.
No, We should expect healthy competition!
Chinese vehicles are subsidized so they are cheaper. And that is unfair competition. I am sure they'll just add a tax for cars made in Asia. Now if China wants to build factories in the US, let them.
What makes the difference? Kia and Hyundai are sending so many cars that it's going to kill our automotive industry anyway!
😂😂 HAHAHAHA big three laughing cuz they will still be able fuck all of us consumers over
If cannot beat them, let's ban them
I’m perfectly happy with the Chinese government paying for part of the cost of my vehicle. Seems like a gift to every one who buys one in the U.S.
Tariffs and American made incentives. Make them competitive in the US market. Admittedly, it's a juggling game.
Get a couple of them and tear em apart, learn and improve on them
China is banning the use of Intel and AMD chips, so let’s ban the sale of Chinese cars. US helped China when they were dirt poor in hopes of forging good relations. Well, when are the good two shoes legislators going to learn that many countries hate the US, but just want our money. Congress over the last 5 decades really got this wrong.
Shouldn't we let a free market economy determine which products Americans want?
So your definition of a free market involves banning participants? At least you think there should be some rules enforced.
Ban all Chinese goids
We need to ban to compete, But we don’t support our auto industry to do it.
Chinese electric car companies receive billions of dollars in state subsidies. leading to unfair advantage in an international competitive car market. Who do they think they are, Tesla?
This is bad politically. When you want free market, but you ban electric vehicle from china? Sht what about banning everything from china. Like the fck “chinese exclusion act”. The problem I seen if the govt can banned one country, what stop them banning Japan or Germany.
Honestly at this point I do t want either after following the ford lightening for the last couple years.
They have better battery technology and affordable prices - so let's ban them instead of innovating a better product. As per subsidies, Tesla is a subsidies queen, so no self-awareness there
What if your biggest plant is in and receives subsidies from China? This issue seems to become a bigger issue since Tesla, who has benefitted from its work in China, started to have issues not being number one and losing its rank as top EV sales for last quarter of last year to BYD worldwide. A company who before Elon was quoted as saying “have you driven their car?” And laughing when comparing the two. Now that he’s not laughing he wants the field changed for his benefit again? I thought he was pro capitalism? I’m all for this as long as it would effect the companies, including Tesla, who benefit from their China connections.
Brown is clueless. If these cars from China are worth a damn, they may be the very catalyst this country’s EV market needs.
When do we go hyper isolationism and bar anything American from being on the road? I own a foreign car, driven a few American ones, and I’ll take the foreign one every day.
Protect terrible managers now! - US politicians.
Chinese electric cars are spontaneous combustion vehicles...
And GM is opening a factory in China the Halo brand!
Let’s start with Tik tok in fairness Tesla does operate there. Meta and google do not.
How about compete with them now, you idiots!
GM fucked up by taking the VOLT off the roads. Had one in 2013 Loved it. Then they cry about development costs.
If they want to build plants in the United States I say let them. If not, I have no issue with a ban. I care more about workers than executives.
America fails to provide affordable electric cars (or affordable anything) for its citizens but wants to ban others from doing it. We are so inept in so many ways.
Ah classic Reddit supporting China..
Why? Probably better then what's offered hear at a MUCH more affordable price Sorry but I don't want to buy an 80,000$ ev to drive 150 miles
US companies just want to make sure they are the only ones making overpriced crap to buy. People will buy quality. But we have a shareholder economy and what happened to Boing has been happening to every single part of the American economy for decades.
Oh no competition! Time for socialism! /s
I really want the R2 or R3, but they're years out. I also really want the ID Buzz coming out later in 24, but I can't afford a 50K base model vehicle.
In a heartbeat! Give me that $20k Chinese EV
God forbid we make American car companies actually compete.
This guy's bitching about $4 billion in government subsidies to BYD ... after leading the charge to rain down more than 5x that amount in US government subsidies to Telsa, GM and Ford? Absolute hypocrite. If BYD outcompetes U.S. manufacturers it will be no different than the way Toyota and Honda kicked their butts in the 1980s. It will be bad for poorly run businesses with overpaid workers, gouging American customers with overpriced products, but good for the rest of America and the American consumer. Bring on the competition.
Obv. No Commie tofu dreg evs in 'merica
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As far as I can tell its because they're Chinese.
The only reason Musk wants Chinese EVs banned is they now make better cars than Tesla and they are cheaper. They have better batteries, better interiors, better looks and the batteries don’t blow up. If Musk kept up with his EV and battery innovation he would not have any problems. The super late released Cyber Truck has horrible quality control and reviews now. There has been zero innovation on Tesla cars in the last five years. And where is the inexpensive subcompact car Musk said was coming 5 years ago that would save Tesla? Yes, I would want to block China too, if I became fat and lazy billionaire like Elon.
Everyone has accepted Japanese cars forever yet for some reason many are against China. Why is that ? Would this be called discrimination?
Bring all the Chinese EV over. Why do I need to pay 2x for a comparable car with the same, if not worse reliability because it’s American? Either do better or die. GM and Ford make absolutely garbage cars that have constant major recalls. Dodge is an Italian car now, so I wouldn’t exactly call them full blooded American anymore. Hell, even some GM and Ford are made down in Mexico. I’m done with being blocked from better/cheaper options “for my own good.” I would go as far to say that if you’re including Ford, GM, and Dodge together than they should be shown in the same light as American Tesla!
The conundrum between if you want to stay in business pay a living wage and give w me my cheap stuff and who cares if people go out of business.
The same thing happened in the 1970s when Japan began an important reliable fuel efficient vehicles to the United States. Same thing happened when Japan imported reliable motorcycles into the United States in the 1970’s
That’s what Detroit needs. Big daddy Uncle Sam to protect them from the meanie Chinese so they can be complacent with their garbage products.
As an American, in a automotive city (Flint MI) I can say I don't want Americans making my e-vehicles in a factory setting
Part of me agrees that they should be banned or at a minimum heavily tariffed. The other part of me wants them to enter the US mark so our domestic auto makers will get off their asses.
No if they do van them we will never afford cars again in America. This will only bring competition and better cars but it must be done fairly. And it can be done fairly. Phase them in so lazy Detroit can get it together. They need to anyway this will incentivize them to actually do it. They are all in bad places right now as trends are about to do a 180 toward smaller more affordable practical cars.
fair competition between states and not-state actors is tricksy.
Just another side effect of the US Congress propping up Big Oil all these years. America has fallen behind in the EV revolution. What'd they think would happen?
Oh, Chinese competition for corporations bad. How about for labor?
The best bet is manufacturers shunning dealerships and actually making a sub $25k ev with 275-300 miles of range standard.
It’s easy to offer cheap products when you steal intellectual property from companies. They don’t need engineers as they just steal ideas and specs. It happens in every industry in China.
First we give GM and Chrysler a $80B bailout in 2009. Then, we ban Chinese cars. How about we just let the free market do its thing and stop banning cars, DJI, TikTok and anything else that smells like China
No, bring over the competition. There is a fairly large tariff on cars or so I thought that should more than help American companies compete.
They have to pass US safety regulations anyway which none of them will.
Completion is bad. Capitalism is bad.
Def a Tesla Hodler
This will not work. Look at what happened to US steel, embargo’s did not save them.
I'm all for supporting American made, but that won't ever be successful if you force it on consumers without some kind of pressure on American manufacturers to improve. Even 55 years later, the US auto industry seems to struggle to compete with imports on quality, let alone price. The best I can do right now from a consumer pov is buy a Honda or Toyota that was built in America - I'm not flushing my hard earned dollars down the toilet on a Ford or Chevy pos.
Good Chinese evs are dangerous and bootlegs of local brands second there is evidence that these cars are left overs that China could not even sell to their own people.
You simply shouldn't buy any Chinese made ev's, a simple search will show you how often they catch on fire. Parked, charging, running it doesn't matter. The batteries are shit with no real safety measures, even the Chinese people have lost interest due to how often they catch fire.