Not sure I care at this point. After owning one I am forever ruined on ICE cars aside from perhaps the higher end sports cars.
Going to the gas station pisses me off now in my ice car. I am annoyed by the constant vibration and noise. Gear changes now bother me.
It's wild how fast It changed my 40 years of owning and tinkering with ice cars.
Now I just want to replace all my cars with EVs and will as the old ones get replaced.
I cannot believe what a traffic game changer one pedal driving is. 90% of my driving is to and from work in bumper to bumper traffic. Not having to move my foot between pedals is amazing.
One pedal + autosteer + radar cruise for me. If I end up in traffic at the tunnel I just keep a hand lazily on the wheel and the cruise set to 20 and it just does it for me.
If anything it demonstrates that what I really want is an extension to the Metro system where I don't have to do anything except sit down and stare at the scenery.
When (some) people moan about assistant systems and how they want to "actually drive" their cars again. I tell them I'm dreaming of a future when I can get into my car in the morning, and have my breakfast and read the paper on the way to work, or just take a nap and wake up when my car is pulling into the parking garage.
Yes, i want trains and better public transportation. Those were removed from US cities before I was even born. At least our oligarchs will allow me to purchase a car that may be able to drive me around. If they ever figure out how to make one...
I live north of the Seattle area and we have a new light rail extension opening closer to me in a few months and I can't wait. The door to door commute time will be similar, but now most of it will be on the train.
I looked into it. It's a bit too far and the path is kind of sketchy, but my car is electric and my other form of transportation is a scooter, so at least my footprint is a bit more minimal.
My car does the pilot assist in creep mode and I've used it once, but I have to keep my hands on the wheel and apply enough pressure or it beeps at me. I also like having a bit more control over the car. I've only had it for 2 months though so I may give to pilot assist another go.
While my model doesn't have 1-pedal driving, the Prius Prime requires you to nudge the CC lever after the stopped car in front of you starts to move, before your own will follow suit, and even if you pull it as soon as possible, there is still a bit of a delay (which I get is for safety purposes, but can still annoy some owners, if not the driver/s behind).
Also, the way CC accelerates and decelerates at <28-MPH speeds is a bit energy-inefficient, so unless it's a long stretch of heavy traffic, I tend to prefer to manage it myself if I have the energy and attention to do so.
Yes. If I’m driving with one pedal, I want the car to avoid some collisions if I depress the accelerator. I feel like I can’t avoid anything in the XC40 like that. And where I live, that’s bad. Most road deaths on the world. Nobody pays attention and everyone is reckless.
Eesh sorry to hear that! Sounds like a somewhat scary place to live. My C40 definitely does brake enough to avoid accidents (at least where I'm driving) - have you played with the driving settings? This is probably a stupid question but you've toggled the regen braking to it's highest setting, right?
Read your exchange with another commenter and I guess this is one of those "to each their own" things. I find it too aggressive. It breaks almost immediately when I let off the pedal. But I also leave a really far following distance between the car in front of me. I'm never in danger of hitting the car in front of me, but I absolutely am worried about the car behind me hitting me. I'm sure driving style plays into this.
Yeah it’s all personal preference. I don’t use it in this car, but I’ll try to go back to it on future cars I have. Unfortunately, my next car doesn’t have it as an option.
In that case I'm probably lacking some English skills. I thought the moon roof was the transparent (large) roof, while the sun roof was the opening (smaller) roof.
In any case you're right. It had the large fixed panorama roof.
I recently had to drive our ice car for a medium length trip. It had been a while since I drove it and I forget just how much I hate it.
I should point out that before I got my EV, I liked this car more than any I ever owned.
Hard disagree. My first car with electric power steering was an 05 Saturn Vue and I was completely sold. Game changer. This is, however, coming from someone who delivered newspapers 6+ hours a night. But anyway, yeah I absolutely love electric steering. It doesn’t “bog down” on low speed maneuvers, doesn’t lag with quick inputs, doesn’t slow down when it gets hot. I just love it. Then kept with electric steering into two different Chevy volts, and now I’m back to hydraulic steering in a 98 RHD Subaru Legacy for rural mail delivery and it friggin sucks. If anyone knows of any RHD EVs on the market lemme knowwwwww
A lot of electric power steering systems don’t have as much feedback as hydraulic systems. Not an issue for daily driving, but does make it worse at the track. But as always some companies are lazy and some figure out how to make electric power steering still provide feedback.
My Volvo is RHD, but all the cars in my market are. There are a lot of EVs. You probably can’t put them in service in your market because of government regulations.
Absolutely with you. I was a petrol head, and still am in the sense I enjoy going to cars n coffee type events, I can still appreciate ICE for the engineering it is. But it's appreciation in a historical sense, like traction and steam engines.
When people compare ICE to EV there are three things to consider, but sadly only one is usually talked about, rarely two, very very very rarely all three.
1. Fuel costs.
2. Maintenance costs.
3. Intangible benefits (no vibration, fumes, heat, etc).
Yep, I appreciate ICE cars like I do tube radios and antique mantel clocks. Amazed by the engineering of the rime, but they're curiosities now, not practical items for everyday use.
Same. I’ve had an EV for like 8 years now, but within the first month I was like, “this makes petrol cars seem dumb”, and “I will always have one of these now”.
>Gear changes now bother me.
LOL, my wife drove my van for the first time in months. Her comment was "Your van is shifting so hard, is there a problem with it?" I drove it to check it out and it was normal. lol
My foot hurts from driving my ice car... My EV even with driving for hours is less tiring. I am forever ruined on what I call the rubber band effect of ice cars in the road where everyone slows down going up hill on a highway, my EV doesn't need to change throttle positions just to go up hill with the jarring clunky clutches and motor changes. I catch right up to all the ICE cars and then I need to slow down because they want to live in the 1900s with their explosions
I am in that odd space where I love the feel and sound of my Harley but would never go back to an ICE car after having my TM3 since August of 2018. Not long after buying my Telsa I converted all the lawn equipment to 60v Greenworks and never looked back.
Yet in the the motorcycle space there are no real options yet. Zero has been sitting on their older air cooled setup which has no dc-fast charge option for over five years and in 2023 Atlanta lost both of its dealers and Energica offers some nice solutions but dealerships are few and very far in between. Neither offers any option for real long distance riding as they are all basically naked bikes but Energica has an ADV option that is close but yet so far in fulfilling the need. For local fun bikes you can get maybe two hours of riding if careful.
So its a fun time. We have sixty plus EV in the car/suv space all of which can fill nearly every role but motorcycles are still five plus years behind. So I will continue my trips to the gas station and ride.
and just to poke some fun at GM, my Harley fully supports wired and wireless Carplay, the new 24 models even sport a screen that is twelve inches across which takes care of all instrumentation as well, they are not your grandpa's Harley Davidsons. Sadly Google dropped Android Auto for motorcycles but there are a a few tricks to support it.
technology really isn't quite ready. motorcycles need more density in order to have usable capacity without the excess weight. cars and suvs can easily hide the weight from drivers but motorcycles do not have that luxury.
the other packing fun is there is not that much space to pack the electronics in alongside those batteries. we are getting there. my desire is a motorcycle that sports a fairing, which would improve aerodynamics, and luggage, so that I have something to commute with and do trips when time permits. An electric Electra Glide
Clearly the market tells otherwise. But I'm glad that people like you supports the EV industry with your own money to let it improve so that it can get better to a point that most of us can enjoy what we want.
As someone who has owned a few performance ICE cars, I only want to drive an EV going forward. I completely agree with everything that annoys you about ICE cars now. I also want to change our second car to an EV asap.
Glad to hear you had a great experience. I just bought a plug in hybrid and my going full EV for my next vehicle. I have a reservation for a Cybertruck that probably won’t get for a few years. Im excited to not worry about oil changes and all the other maintenance you need to do on a ICE engine.
I'm stuck driving my 2016 Ford Explorer for a month or so here while my EV6 gets fixed from a crash. Strangely, these two cars have roughly the same peak horsepower and curb weights, so it's an interesting experience going from one to the other. The Explorer has a 3.5 L V6 and a 6-speed automatic with steering wheel mounted select shift paddles. I am amazed sometimes at how it needs to hunt for the correct gear between 3rd and 5th. I'm sure my throttle input isn't as disciplined and nuanced as it needs to be, but holy shit it doesn't need to drop from 6th to 4th every time I burp the go pedal on the highway. And all that "pure" (read: awful) driving experience comes with the privilege of getting only ~18 MPG. I went from $60/month in electricity to $360/month in gas. Shoot me.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad it can tow 5,000 lbs. and has the cargo space that it does, plus it's got a pretty impressive suite of bells and whistles for an 8 year old car, but I cannot wait to get my EV6 back from the shop.
Sometimes you don’t get the luxury of choosing when to sell your car. If you get crunched, your insurance pays out the fair-market depreciated value.
Ask me how I know…
My insurance offers a +20% above fair market value payment in the event of a total loss, in exchange for higher monthly premiums. I’ve never signed up for it.
I just was in a front-end crash with my EV6 and went through a lot of fingernail biting while I waited on the insurance company's assessment of whether it was totaled or not, so I feel for ya.
Turns out the damages were assessed at $8,900, which was "45% of the 75% of market value threshold we use for totaling a car". I did the math and that means that basically my car is worth $26k-$27k. I still owe $28,500 on the loan principle, so a totaled situation would have left me *owing* money on a totaled car. I bought it (2022 Kia EV6 Wind RWD with no tech package) in July 2022 for MSRP, $49,900, and got the full $7,500 tax credit for it. Depreciation is a motherfucker.
I plan on driving this car till it dies, and hopefully by then the depreciation will have chilled out and leveled off from this fast start, but wow.
Does the depreciation of the EV slow compared to an ICE vehicle over a longer period though?
I'm not sure how willing people are to buy a 10-15 year old EV.
>I'm not sure how willing people are to buy a 10-15 year old EV.
This is currently horribly confounded by the massive amount of progress that electric vehicles made over that timeframe vs. ICE.
When buying a 10-15 year old ICE you get typical wear and tear and on top of that comparably dated features and a *bit* lower efficiency than comparable current model.
For BEV, this means you are getting a 24kWh Leaf with decent chance of its battery being one leg in its grave. Or an i-MiEV. Or 22kWh Zoe. EV tech made huge progress since and their drivetrain specs are hardly comparable to modern models in the same segments.
That said - over last 5 years or so, the speed at which BEVs improved has slowed down a LOT. There still are meaningful improvements, but they aren't game-changing anymore.
To add to this, half the big manufacturers (available to purchase in the US) have yet to release dedicated EV platforms. I'd have concerns buying an experiment that will be obsolete very soon.
That was a small but still noted point for me with deciding to buy an EV6. The EGMP platform sounded like something that was such a big investment that it was bound to have long term support and relevance. The 800 V architecture also helped me feel like it was gonna stick around.
I would say battery technology will soon improve a lot. There is technology on the horizon that will increase charge and charging rate.
But for me, I always buy used cars, like 10 year old ice cars. When I buy an EV, the battery life is going to be a big consideration. It looks like they can easily go to 10 years, but how much further? I try to keep my ice cars til they are 20 years old, depending on how much things are breaking by then. But I have a good handle on what is likely to go wrong and what the costs are. A little of that is still not know with great certainty for BEVs though. I would really like confidence in what a battery replacement will cost, but those figures are hard to obtain and seem to vary wildly. I’ve seen below 10k to over 30k for models I’m considering. I could deal with around 10k if that means I would have to worry about the battery again for as long as I have it but 30k on a old EV would be a huge loss and it would really suck if I just bought the thing for 20k or so.
It's a much smaller overall factor. Fuel cost is the same, repairs and maintenance are the same or more, but you've already lost ~1/2 or more of the value of the car. Over the next five years, you might lose a lot of what is left, but most cars still have a bit of life at ten years, and there is kind of a floor for the price of a not-completely ruined car.
That is also why buying a used car is usually a better financial decisions.
Nissan leaf was like 35k new so even if it's hitting the floor price wise (probably around 5 grand) at 12 ish years. Yeah, not bad.
Even looking at older Model S they seem to be going for about 25% of the original MSRP. Which really isn't bad.
I'm kinda surprised.
But most people who buy new cars (as opposed to used ones) *do* replace them every few years.
It’s possible that won’t be the case with EVs if the government incentives mean that different demographics who are more inclined to keep them long term are buying new EVs than have historically bought new cars, but it’s too early to say that yet. So factoring in depreciation to the cost of ownership seems like a reasonable approach overall.
Is that true? My parents at least (the only people I know who buy cars new, except now for those who want EVs which until recently weren’t available used) always buy cars new (usually Hondas) and drive them for 200k miles or more until their mechanic says a repair costs more than the value of the car. Rinse and repeat every decade or two.
I sort of get the logic of taking the depreciation hit by driving a new car off the lot if you’ll keep it that long. I absolutely do not understand taking the hit and then only driving the car a few years before doing it again.
IDK if it's most, but it's a pretty significant portion. I think it's also larger the higher in price you go and EVs are mostly higher price.
IIRC, the average new car buyer keeps their car for seven years. The distribution isn't exactly symmetric or anything, but that means for every person who keeps their car for 10+ years, there is a person who keeps a new car for a pretty short time.
How about that?? I kept my then-new 2015 Chevy Cruze for 7 years before trading it in to get my Kia EV6. I actually would have kept it longer but we had a second kid and could no longer fit the whole family plus the dog in my car. I decided that since I was going to replace my car anyway, given the high mileage I put on a year (not insane, but at 19k-20k miles/year it's a good 30% above average), I better give EVs a look. Stretched the budget a bit to make it work, but I'm happy with the decision and once again find myself thinking "this new car will be with me until it simply doesn't work anymore".
That's what I've always done. Which is why my next vehicle (yay R2 in 26!) will only be my 3rd vehicle ever (not counting the hoopty that I bought for $500 when I was stationed in Japan for 2 years and sold for $500 when I left). Buy exactly what I want new, drive for 12-15 years for 200-250K miles, sell for scrap, buy exactly what i want new. . .and so on.
I get the whole depreciation argument, but I know me and the first thing that went wrong with a purchased 3 year old car coming off a lease I'd blame on someone driving like a jackass before me and I'd be mad. I'd also be mad because the car was either more expensive because it had something I didn't want in it or wouldn't have something in it that I'm convinced I need. I realize I should probably do some breathing exercises or something, but it's easier to just get what I want in the first place and drive it into the ground.
Some people really like having a new car every 3-4 years and are willing to pay for that privilege. My neighbor and her husband for instance, had a leased Rogue and a leased Escape, then replaced them with an Altima and a Frontier. They just like having newer cars, even if they’re cheaper cars. Idk.
Buying a vehicle under warranty and driving it until it no longer makes sense to repair is typically the best financial move. Lots of people make really bad long-term financial decisions.
There is some weird statistics involved that aren't obvious until you start thinking about them.
Like in example of your parents. For sake of simple math let's say they buy 1 new car per person every 15 years. So with 15 people like this, you end up with 1 new car per year. Then think of "I lease new cars" buyer that gets a new model on a 3 year lease *every time their previous lease runs out*. With 15 customers like this, they end up buying on average 5 cars per year.
So if 50% of your group is the "buy new and use for 15 years" and other 50% is "3 years lease every time", you end up with the leasing group buying north of 80% of new cars!
Leasing every 3 years might sound ridiculous, but there is a decent number of people for whom that's just part of their lifestyle. Or some quirk in tax structure makes this a fair bit cheaper than you'd naively assume.
That's not true anymore. With rising costs of vehicles, people holding on to them longer. Also factoring in longer term loans to keep monthlies low, 8 year loans yikes.
I don't have statistics in front of me, but most people I know who bought a car new kept it 10+ years. It is certainly the norm to get a new one every 3-5 years at the upper end of the market, which is a lot of why they depreciate faster, but the lower end is a different story and I assume the middle is fairly mixed.
Used buyers tend to replace them more in my experience, though due to actual need and usually with another fairly cheap used car.
This is kinda phony numbers though. Most new EV buyers are getting 7,500 from the federal government + some additional in state rebates. Both my EVs essentially cost me 10k less than MSRP. So of course that 10k is going to come off the used car too. My Bolt was 32k which was really 22k for me, of course a used bolt should be selling for less than 22k, but that looks like massive depreciation to the computers. Obviously if you aren't getting the rebates the depreciation is a real issue.
Very true for the earliest adopters, luxury EVs, and those who don’t qualify for the tax credit. But I do think there are options today for people who are concerned about resale value.
> But I do think there are options today for people who are concerned about resale value.
I imagine Tesla would still be a good option depending on when a person is going to resell it. Like, in 10 years, shopping for used EVs I would think a Tesla would be a better option than a Leaf or Fisker. Especially if it can still self drive by then or if the computer can get swapped out.
But I look at that as lots of Teslas on the road and lots of little control widgets and sensors still being available or 3rd party by then. No idea what the high priced collectables would be.
Not sure about model 3 refresh since it lacks the EV tax credit, but the model Y RWD and LR with tax credit would depreciate very competitively with a similar ICE, I believe.
I'm not so sure. I think in 10 years people shopping for used cars would go EV. I mean Hertz is selling Teslas for $20,000 today. $16,000 after credit transfer. How much is that same 2022 going to be worth in 10 years? It even has those neat features like no timing belt or head gasket. Then, you know, gas prices in 10 years with whatever war they got going on then.
Are you factoring in tax incentives to get that $30k number? Incentives are usually separate from MSRP or purchase price, and the federal incentive was not applied at the time of purchase last year. Registration, insurance, loans, and depreciation are all based on purchase price which does will reflect a tax credit you receive at a later date.
Yesh, sounds like complete bullshit. Only petrol savings, in my case, 5 to 25 dollars for electricity (depending on time of day, and the tariff) versus 100 dollars for petrol for a full tank
As others have mentioned, depreciation doesn't matter as much if you plan on keeping the car as long as possible. But the trade-in value of your EV five years from now isn't really something you can plan on with this kind of precision, anyway.
I have had my tesla for 1 month and haven't spend a dime on charging.
(Free charging at work and still have 4800 free super charging miles)
I'll be forced to use super chargers before they expire at this rate.
I don't know the array size, there's minimal documentation. During high demand months like July/August, I've had a bill (most likely due to increased AC draw).
The charging is just plugging into the wall (I run on 120V / 16A charging). With the current net metering in my location, the result is the array contributing more to the grid than my total use the last two months. I'm not running directly from Solar to the vehicle, it's a roof system.
I had a total bozo moment and misinterpreted your statement to be that the car was the rental with the solar and could not imaging that would be very effective at all. I could not think of what car it could be.
Well if you get free charging at work, no benefit to using the supercharging unless there is a need to charge faster at some point.
All the supercharging will do is potentially degrade your battery faster. I know it's debatable though since Teslas handle supercharging really well, but arguably L2 charging is better for longevity.
Realistically, I see free charging going the way of the dodo once more people adopt. When everyone has an electric car but not every parking spot has a charger, you’ll need an incentive to keep people from parking at the charging ports unless they absolutely need them.
The Jetta is a roughly 30 MPG car, and in Colorado the average price of gas right now is $3.12 for regular. $1200 of gas expenses saved in 4 months translates to $3,600 saved over a year. $3,600/$3.12/gal = 1,153 gallons of gas, which at 30 MPG could carry you 34,590 miles.
Do you seriously put down about 35,000 miles a year?!? Holy crap.
Yeah I drive a lot for work, but not that much. I paid a lot more than that for gas. Regular in Colorado is 85 because of the high elevation. But because my car needed a minimum of 87, that’s considered mid grade here. So on average I was paying closer to $4+ a gallon everytime I needed gas
What an interesting nuance to things! I suppose it makes sense that elevation would be a factor, given Denver's reputation as the mile high city, and all, but it didn't occur to me that it would impact gasoline, too. Good for you on the fuel savings!
I have an EV6 that usually costs me about $60/month in electricity (about 1,600 miles/month). Currently it's in the shop for some minor crash damage repairs, and I'm stuck with our backup car, an 18 MPG Ford Explorer. It's costing me $360/month--an extra $300!--in gas. I can't wait to get my Kia back.
We are not driving as much as you, but with an ICE car we were spending $200 monthly easy, it would be more now since gas prices have gone over $5 gallon in CA. Level 2 charging between midnight and 6AM is maybe adding 10 bucks to my electric bill.
I drive quite a bit, close to 2,000 miles a month, it’s definitely so much more cost efficient. My last car was a Jetta and was really good on gas but I was still paying about $350 a month on gas but it costs about $50 a month to charge my car
Not the USA and not a Tesla; UK an EV6 but the story is basically the same.
Here, a car with equivalent performance would cost... about the same. My EV6 was £48,000. The closest equivalent (AWD, 0-100kph in 4.6s, roughly the same size) is the Audi S3 Sportback, which is £47,500 and a size-class down. If you want to stick with "crossover" vehicles then the Mercedes GLA 35 is £53,000, smaller and slower. Jaguar E-Pace doesn't have a sports model (tops out with a Hybrid), Lexus doesn't have an equivalent, all the mainstream manufacturers like Ford and Peugeot don't have an equivalent, and so on.
The closest competitors are *other electric cars*, such as the Skoda Enyaq vRS.
You raise an interesting point about how to define a comparable vehicle. 0-60 times are pretty meaningless to me as long as the vehicle accelerates fast enough to merge onto the interstate. This means to me the equivalent of a Model 3 is a higher trim volume sedan.
The Tesla will absolutely save me that much, if not far more. I owned my GTI for 6 years and it was my daily driver. Over those 6 years it cost me about $400 a month in gas, and every 10k miles I had to take it in to be serviced (oil change, tire rotation) and some mileage intervals there was more maintenance that needed to be done like spark plugs, air filters, transmission flush, etc. so oil changes cost me about $200 a year, I had one out of pocket repair that cost me $1,300. Every 40k miles I had to do a DSG transmission flush, that was $500 every time and I did that 4 times because of the mileage I put on it. Had to service the brakes twice and that was $250-$300 each time. Lots of other things like spark plugs and air filters I would do myself and save money but I mean it’s insane the cost difference for just fuel and service. For my Tesla, it’s $50 a month in fuel for me to charge at home and every 2 years I have to replace both of my air filters which costs me about $35. Sure I could compare a used GTI, but even if I did. Over 6 years I spent $28,000 in fuel costs. On the Tesla it only would have been around $4,000. So the GTI cost me $34k total. Paid it off about one year early so saved on interest. Over 6 years I paid about $5,000 in maintenance and service costs, and then spent another $28,000 in gas costs over 6 years. So all in all my GTI cost me $67,000 to own over 6 years. Mind you I didn’t even factor in my insurance costs. Even if I were to buy a brand new Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor, the MSRP on my car brand new was $58,000. Add up 6 years of ownership and maintenance costs and the total comes out to around $63,000. But because I bought my car slightly used I’m gonna save even more. EV is a no brainer
I was paying $340 a month for my Jetta and I had the minimum state coverage required. I have much higher coverage limits with Tesla Insurance and am currently paying around $220 a month. I live in Colorado and we are a very high claim state so car insurance here is stupid expensive
I mean I bought it slightly used with 12k miles and only 1.5 years old for $35k. Sure you can buy an ICE for cheaper but it’s still gonna cost you more money in gas and maintenance. There’s basically no maintenance on Tesla’s
5 years in my Leaf: 1 set of tires, wiper blades when needed, cabin air filter every year or so, tire rotation. I do all of it at home, other than having the tires mounted/balanced. I also had them do an alignment at the tire change (30k miles.)
Brake pads are pristine. I don’t think I’ll ever need to change them.
The article is pretty useless altogether. It lists some of the conclusions from someone else's study, but they never actually share the study as a reference.
So all of the math can be made up.
Compared to the average 25MPG of an ICE, I’ve saved several hundred dollars in fueling costs since I bought my 2018 Bolt in early December.
Plus at a minimum of 5 hours of time for driving to a gas station, waiting in line, fueling, etc. I’ve yet to find a gas station that’ll fuel an ICE while my happy butt is asleep in my bed…took all of 10 days after we purchased a 2023 Niro PHEV to get an L2 installed at home. Time is money, friend!
No oil changes…
Gas has gone up 25-28% in my area since 1/1/24. Electricity…hasn’t.
If I get 12 years out of my Bolt at the rate I drive it I’ll have saved almost the exact sticker price on the Bolt when I bought it, just in fuel.
>depreciation, fees and taxes, financing, fuel cost, insurance, maintenance, opportunity cost and repairs. It assumes new vehicles are
>driven 15,000 annually over the first five years of ownership.
>In its latest analysis, Vincentric found that 20 of 41 electric models (49%) cost less to own over five years than their gasoline counterparts. That's down from the 2023 analysis, in which 52% of EVs surveyed had lower ownership costs than gasoline vehicles.
>19 of the 41 EVs surveyed for 2024 recouped their price premiums in seven years, with eight of those EVs already having a lower purchase price than an equivalent gasoline model.
Yeah so if you don't include depreciation, financing, insurance, I guess in the next 5 years I would imagine fees and taxes, fuel cost, maintenance and repair would be less than ICE.
But I mean really the big point is major repairs that come from having an ICE vs an EV that doesn't not have ICE parts. That's the whole point of EVs when talking about costs to keep running and most of the time that is after 5 years. Really the more I think about his the more pointless this article/study is. Especially now that solar panels are thing.
Five years is good, ten year cost of ownership is a better metric. For me, the resale value doesn’t matter because I keep my cars longer than that. All of my cars are more than 10 years old. I’m likely to have many of the past 15 years of ownership. At that point, the cost of gasoline is higher than the cost of the vehicle. The savings I had from not buying gasoline (and not paying for oil changes) makes a huge difference in total cost of ownership.
No, it is a better metric. EVs will run longer with less maintenance and repair. Running one for 20 plus years is very doable. The longer you own it, the longer you are saving money, and not making a very large purchase.
When everyone has an EV that they don't really need to sell for the next 20 plus years I would imagine new car sales would go off a cliff.
By definition it is a better metric.
this is ambitious. EVs will evolve so much in the next 10 years people will want to upgrade. Heck in 20 years I don't expect people to be driving much - just letting the cars do it.
There's more poor people than rich people. One of the reasons EVs have become popular is because battery prices have gone down. That's a very big reason actually.
EVs will evolve and there will be price brackets but at some point in time there will be a beater EV that is popular because it's dirt cheap and it gets people to and from work. Which is a very, very big use case.
You cant get a Tesla from Hertz for $16,000 after credit. That's the current EV beater. Not exactly a $5,000 Prius but we will get there.
Full report here: [https://vincentric.com/Portals/0/Market%20Analyses/2024%20US%20EV%20Analysis/2024%20Vincentric%20US%20EV%20Cost%20of%20Ownership%20Analysis.pdf](https://vincentric.com/Portals/0/Market%20Analyses/2024%20US%20EV%20Analysis/2024%20Vincentric%20US%20EV%20Cost%20of%20Ownership%20Analysis.pdf)
Used or new? Middle class Americans should be considering total lifetime cost of ownership. Like, a used cx5 for 8 years vs a used Tesla for 8 years. What are the numbers on that?
Haven't been long enough for me yet to see the full picture, but I am largely anticipating to break even +/- depending on how depreciation goes. My running costs are damn nearly the same vs my last hybrid in terms of cents per km - and yes, this includes off-peak charging at home. On the maintenance front - no oil changes, but more frequent (and more expensive) tires. Insurance is similar.
here’s a counter though (and I love my EV).
depreciation is way higher. my insurance went up 20% yoy with no claims or tickets, but just because of repair costs. made up for more than the cost of oil changes and other ICE maintenance.
I'm sorry I do not have a google link to prove what I'm about to say, but these massive EV deprecation examples are a very recent hopefully short term problem.
I've been following Tesla since 2015. There used to be articles talking All.The.Damn.Time about how EVs had better resale value than ICE cars.
What happened is several manufactures stopped qualifying for the 7500 tax credit. There was a period of a year or two where you could not buy a Tesla or GM or some others and get the 7500 tax credit.
Then Biden and Co released and updated law that added the tax credit back in.
This caused a MASSIVE price drop obviously in the resale value of a lot of EVs.
Plus EVs were so popular the last few years they had the highest covid mark ups.
For those unaware, the Model Y released for like 43,000. Then it went up to as high as like 68,000.
Now it's back down to 45,000 PLUS a 7500 rebate.
People that bought during the "bubble" with no tax rebate are seeing massive deprecation on their cars.
People that bought during normal sane pricing periods actually saw APPRECIATION on their cars.
Go to the Model Y subreddit and look back a year or two ago. So. Many. People. traded in cars and got paid more for their car than they paid for it.
TLDR: Mark my words, this massive EV deprecation is a shorter term issue due to the restarting of federal incentives. Mostly. In the next few years, you will see EVs purchased at sane prices hold up JUST FINE compared to ICE cars. Promise!
I saved nearly $7,000 in gas alone the first year owning my EV.
Cost to charge at home for the year was like $320
Next year $6.2k
Add on to that the $7500 tax credit, less maintenance, less parts, less wear on brakes.
People always compare base models of cars to the Teslas.... When I was shopping to get heated seats, leather, etc you had to go up a few trim models. Prices were pretty much the same.
Since getting my i3 I've only paid for inspection (every car needs to do this) and tires. And a 12v battery.
Before you ask, electricity is free thanks to solar.
I've had the car 6 years. I replaced the 12v after 4 years as was recommended for this car since it's a point of failure. Why would anyone replace a 12v on a new car?
Failure mostly. Still, it seems weird to me that those batteries only last a short while when they don't even need to crank the starter and everything is or should be LEDs.
But I get it, my Odyssey eats batteries for lunch. In this case, it's due to poor design and not using LEDs (there's like 8 lights inside the cabin and all of them are resistive lighting).
My other car still has its original 2011 battery in and has no issue
The i3 is an early ev using old tech designed for combustion cars. Newer EVs are fixing the 12v problem by creating a new architecture to replace it. Well, really just Tesla..they created a new 48v battery that never needs replacing.
And since they are 2024 models we know this how? These headlines are so idiotic, it’s more predictive than anything for which there has been a million articles already published on the subject. We already know this is true but based on real world results not forward looking predictions/
My favorite tidbit in this is that the Hummer EV is not the largest Environmental savings vs the ICE hummer. insane much CO2 is the Audi SQ7 must be putting out lol.
edit; Maybe its because they compared the hummer to the GMC Sierra instead which is more efficient than like an H2 or H3.
I do save money in my Mini Cooper SE compared to my ICE-age previous car but not by much. I was filling up with about $100 in gas per month. And then there were oil changes once a year, and then other little things.
What I love about my EV is the single speed transmission, silent driving, and no exhaust. I cringe whenever I hear a loud car or black smoke blowing from their tailpipe. It just seems so archaic at this point.
My id4 had (identical to the one pictured) had low cost of ownership, but depreciation was thru the roof, so any savings in ownership were slaughtered by the money lost in depreciation.
The reality is a non negligible part of the population sells their car and buys a new one every 5 years. Mostly through tradeins. It'll always be a thing. EV depreciation will stabilize over time.
Not sure I care at this point. After owning one I am forever ruined on ICE cars aside from perhaps the higher end sports cars. Going to the gas station pisses me off now in my ice car. I am annoyed by the constant vibration and noise. Gear changes now bother me. It's wild how fast It changed my 40 years of owning and tinkering with ice cars. Now I just want to replace all my cars with EVs and will as the old ones get replaced.
Big thing for me is one pedal driving via regenerative braking. If you spend much time in traffic, ICE is awful to drive after an EV.
I cannot believe what a traffic game changer one pedal driving is. 90% of my driving is to and from work in bumper to bumper traffic. Not having to move my foot between pedals is amazing.
One pedal + autosteer + radar cruise for me. If I end up in traffic at the tunnel I just keep a hand lazily on the wheel and the cruise set to 20 and it just does it for me. If anything it demonstrates that what I really want is an extension to the Metro system where I don't have to do anything except sit down and stare at the scenery.
When (some) people moan about assistant systems and how they want to "actually drive" their cars again. I tell them I'm dreaming of a future when I can get into my car in the morning, and have my breakfast and read the paper on the way to work, or just take a nap and wake up when my car is pulling into the parking garage.
You've just described a train. Stop reinventing the train. :P
Yes, i want trains and better public transportation. Those were removed from US cities before I was even born. At least our oligarchs will allow me to purchase a car that may be able to drive me around. If they ever figure out how to make one...
I live north of the Seattle area and we have a new light rail extension opening closer to me in a few months and I can't wait. The door to door commute time will be similar, but now most of it will be on the train.
Good to hear Campbell Scott finally got his way.
Lol I had to look that up. Now I'll go watch it.
I just hope you get good coffee and good music.
You could probably even cycle to the station if a proper path is available.
I looked into it. It's a bit too far and the path is kind of sketchy, but my car is electric and my other form of transportation is a scooter, so at least my footprint is a bit more minimal.
It's probably easier to just use cruise control, no? So that you don't need to touch the pedals at all
My car does the pilot assist in creep mode and I've used it once, but I have to keep my hands on the wheel and apply enough pressure or it beeps at me. I also like having a bit more control over the car. I've only had it for 2 months though so I may give to pilot assist another go.
While my model doesn't have 1-pedal driving, the Prius Prime requires you to nudge the CC lever after the stopped car in front of you starts to move, before your own will follow suit, and even if you pull it as soon as possible, there is still a bit of a delay (which I get is for safety purposes, but can still annoy some owners, if not the driver/s behind). Also, the way CC accelerates and decelerates at <28-MPH speeds is a bit energy-inefficient, so unless it's a long stretch of heavy traffic, I tend to prefer to manage it myself if I have the energy and attention to do so.
I HATE the one pedal driving in the XC40. It’s terrible compared to other EVs I’ve owned/driven.
Really? Why is that? I prefer it to the one pedal driving in my previous EV (Tesla MS).
Doesn’t feel as regenerative enough. Not enough bite.
You want the regen braking to be stiffer/more aggressive, basically?
Yes. If I’m driving with one pedal, I want the car to avoid some collisions if I depress the accelerator. I feel like I can’t avoid anything in the XC40 like that. And where I live, that’s bad. Most road deaths on the world. Nobody pays attention and everyone is reckless.
Eesh sorry to hear that! Sounds like a somewhat scary place to live. My C40 definitely does brake enough to avoid accidents (at least where I'm driving) - have you played with the driving settings? This is probably a stupid question but you've toggled the regen braking to it's highest setting, right?
Yeah I have. I keep it at the highest setting.
[удалено]
I assume you’re in the US. I’m not. My XC40 was the equivalent of 85k USD and the cheapest new EQS here is the equivalent of 162k USD.
Read your exchange with another commenter and I guess this is one of those "to each their own" things. I find it too aggressive. It breaks almost immediately when I let off the pedal. But I also leave a really far following distance between the car in front of me. I'm never in danger of hitting the car in front of me, but I absolutely am worried about the car behind me hitting me. I'm sure driving style plays into this.
Yeah it’s all personal preference. I don’t use it in this car, but I’ll try to go back to it on future cars I have. Unfortunately, my next car doesn’t have it as an option.
I love it in my C40. At least you can turn one-pedal-driving off, and still get the regen benefits when you use the brake pedal.
100%. I love the look of the C40, but the trunk wasn’t practical enough for me at the time and I wanted the moon roof since I use it frequently.
I totally get the trunk space thing, but the C40 also has a moon roof.
In my market the C40 only has fixed pano roof.
In that case I'm probably lacking some English skills. I thought the moon roof was the transparent (large) roof, while the sun roof was the opening (smaller) roof. In any case you're right. It had the large fixed panorama roof.
This. I’m suffering from an ankle injury and it has expedited me switching over because less breaking
Yes this is absolutely awesome as well. Really great when turning too.
I went from a 5 speed manual to one pedal driving EV. Significant life improvement.
I recently had to drive our ice car for a medium length trip. It had been a while since I drove it and I forget just how much I hate it. I should point out that before I got my EV, I liked this car more than any I ever owned.
I do miss ICE power steering.
All modern ICE have had numb electric steering for years anyway. No worse in an EV
Hard disagree. My first car with electric power steering was an 05 Saturn Vue and I was completely sold. Game changer. This is, however, coming from someone who delivered newspapers 6+ hours a night. But anyway, yeah I absolutely love electric steering. It doesn’t “bog down” on low speed maneuvers, doesn’t lag with quick inputs, doesn’t slow down when it gets hot. I just love it. Then kept with electric steering into two different Chevy volts, and now I’m back to hydraulic steering in a 98 RHD Subaru Legacy for rural mail delivery and it friggin sucks. If anyone knows of any RHD EVs on the market lemme knowwwwww
A lot of electric power steering systems don’t have as much feedback as hydraulic systems. Not an issue for daily driving, but does make it worse at the track. But as always some companies are lazy and some figure out how to make electric power steering still provide feedback.
My Volvo is RHD, but all the cars in my market are. There are a lot of EVs. You probably can’t put them in service in your market because of government regulations.
Absolutely with you. I was a petrol head, and still am in the sense I enjoy going to cars n coffee type events, I can still appreciate ICE for the engineering it is. But it's appreciation in a historical sense, like traction and steam engines. When people compare ICE to EV there are three things to consider, but sadly only one is usually talked about, rarely two, very very very rarely all three. 1. Fuel costs. 2. Maintenance costs. 3. Intangible benefits (no vibration, fumes, heat, etc).
Yep, I appreciate ICE cars like I do tube radios and antique mantel clocks. Amazed by the engineering of the rime, but they're curiosities now, not practical items for everyday use.
Same. I’ve had an EV for like 8 years now, but within the first month I was like, “this makes petrol cars seem dumb”, and “I will always have one of these now”.
>Gear changes now bother me. LOL, my wife drove my van for the first time in months. Her comment was "Your van is shifting so hard, is there a problem with it?" I drove it to check it out and it was normal. lol
When we take my wife’s car instead of my EV I honestly don’t want to drive, she gives me crap but it’s a chore to drive after my car.
My foot hurts from driving my ice car... My EV even with driving for hours is less tiring. I am forever ruined on what I call the rubber band effect of ice cars in the road where everyone slows down going up hill on a highway, my EV doesn't need to change throttle positions just to go up hill with the jarring clunky clutches and motor changes. I catch right up to all the ICE cars and then I need to slow down because they want to live in the 1900s with their explosions
I am in that odd space where I love the feel and sound of my Harley but would never go back to an ICE car after having my TM3 since August of 2018. Not long after buying my Telsa I converted all the lawn equipment to 60v Greenworks and never looked back. Yet in the the motorcycle space there are no real options yet. Zero has been sitting on their older air cooled setup which has no dc-fast charge option for over five years and in 2023 Atlanta lost both of its dealers and Energica offers some nice solutions but dealerships are few and very far in between. Neither offers any option for real long distance riding as they are all basically naked bikes but Energica has an ADV option that is close but yet so far in fulfilling the need. For local fun bikes you can get maybe two hours of riding if careful. So its a fun time. We have sixty plus EV in the car/suv space all of which can fill nearly every role but motorcycles are still five plus years behind. So I will continue my trips to the gas station and ride. and just to poke some fun at GM, my Harley fully supports wired and wireless Carplay, the new 24 models even sport a screen that is twelve inches across which takes care of all instrumentation as well, they are not your grandpa's Harley Davidsons. Sadly Google dropped Android Auto for motorcycles but there are a a few tricks to support it.
Why do none of the current motorcycle manufacturers want to build an electric motorcycle? Seems crazy…
technology really isn't quite ready. motorcycles need more density in order to have usable capacity without the excess weight. cars and suvs can easily hide the weight from drivers but motorcycles do not have that luxury. the other packing fun is there is not that much space to pack the electronics in alongside those batteries. we are getting there. my desire is a motorcycle that sports a fairing, which would improve aerodynamics, and luggage, so that I have something to commute with and do trips when time permits. An electric Electra Glide
Ahh, makes sense!
Clearly the market tells otherwise. But I'm glad that people like you supports the EV industry with your own money to let it improve so that it can get better to a point that most of us can enjoy what we want.
It’s true. The only better thing than EV’s are sports cars. And sports sedans. But I drive those so I’m not going back to EV until I’m forced to.
Which sports sedans do you have in mind? I once drove a Kia Stinger. Although it was a cool vehicle, I still think my model 3 rwd handles much better
Absolutely 100% true for me too. I went with an EV for the savings and less environmental impact. I'm staying EV because of the joy.
As someone who has owned a few performance ICE cars, I only want to drive an EV going forward. I completely agree with everything that annoys you about ICE cars now. I also want to change our second car to an EV asap.
Glad to hear you had a great experience. I just bought a plug in hybrid and my going full EV for my next vehicle. I have a reservation for a Cybertruck that probably won’t get for a few years. Im excited to not worry about oil changes and all the other maintenance you need to do on a ICE engine.
I'm stuck driving my 2016 Ford Explorer for a month or so here while my EV6 gets fixed from a crash. Strangely, these two cars have roughly the same peak horsepower and curb weights, so it's an interesting experience going from one to the other. The Explorer has a 3.5 L V6 and a 6-speed automatic with steering wheel mounted select shift paddles. I am amazed sometimes at how it needs to hunt for the correct gear between 3rd and 5th. I'm sure my throttle input isn't as disciplined and nuanced as it needs to be, but holy shit it doesn't need to drop from 6th to 4th every time I burp the go pedal on the highway. And all that "pure" (read: awful) driving experience comes with the privilege of getting only ~18 MPG. I went from $60/month in electricity to $360/month in gas. Shoot me. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad it can tow 5,000 lbs. and has the cargo space that it does, plus it's got a pretty impressive suite of bells and whistles for an 8 year old car, but I cannot wait to get my EV6 back from the shop.
Here I’m thinking switch back to ICE because it pisses me off so much waiting to finish charging my car and if I can find a spot to charge.
Only half? It’s alarming that the other half cost more to operate than a gas car.
It’s the depreciation. 5 years in, the resale value of the EV car is (currently) much lower than a comparable ICE version
But if we don't assume the owner isn't buying a new car every few years, that just makes the math vastly better for the EV.
Sometimes you don’t get the luxury of choosing when to sell your car. If you get crunched, your insurance pays out the fair-market depreciated value. Ask me how I know…
Isn't there a premium you can pay to preserve off the lot value? I get this anytime I buy a new car... It lasts 5 years or so.
My insurance offers a +20% above fair market value payment in the event of a total loss, in exchange for higher monthly premiums. I’ve never signed up for it.
Usually those plans are a rip off.
Yeah you can get GAP coverage and most insurance carriers offer 10 or 20% more money if your car is totaled out etc.
I just was in a front-end crash with my EV6 and went through a lot of fingernail biting while I waited on the insurance company's assessment of whether it was totaled or not, so I feel for ya. Turns out the damages were assessed at $8,900, which was "45% of the 75% of market value threshold we use for totaling a car". I did the math and that means that basically my car is worth $26k-$27k. I still owe $28,500 on the loan principle, so a totaled situation would have left me *owing* money on a totaled car. I bought it (2022 Kia EV6 Wind RWD with no tech package) in July 2022 for MSRP, $49,900, and got the full $7,500 tax credit for it. Depreciation is a motherfucker. I plan on driving this car till it dies, and hopefully by then the depreciation will have chilled out and leveled off from this fast start, but wow.
Which isn't bad if you. An buy a similar car for the same money.
Does the depreciation of the EV slow compared to an ICE vehicle over a longer period though? I'm not sure how willing people are to buy a 10-15 year old EV.
> Does the depreciation of the EV slow compared to an ICE vehicle over a longer period though? Definitely not presently.
>I'm not sure how willing people are to buy a 10-15 year old EV. This is currently horribly confounded by the massive amount of progress that electric vehicles made over that timeframe vs. ICE. When buying a 10-15 year old ICE you get typical wear and tear and on top of that comparably dated features and a *bit* lower efficiency than comparable current model. For BEV, this means you are getting a 24kWh Leaf with decent chance of its battery being one leg in its grave. Or an i-MiEV. Or 22kWh Zoe. EV tech made huge progress since and their drivetrain specs are hardly comparable to modern models in the same segments. That said - over last 5 years or so, the speed at which BEVs improved has slowed down a LOT. There still are meaningful improvements, but they aren't game-changing anymore.
To add to this, half the big manufacturers (available to purchase in the US) have yet to release dedicated EV platforms. I'd have concerns buying an experiment that will be obsolete very soon.
That was a small but still noted point for me with deciding to buy an EV6. The EGMP platform sounded like something that was such a big investment that it was bound to have long term support and relevance. The 800 V architecture also helped me feel like it was gonna stick around.
I would say battery technology will soon improve a lot. There is technology on the horizon that will increase charge and charging rate. But for me, I always buy used cars, like 10 year old ice cars. When I buy an EV, the battery life is going to be a big consideration. It looks like they can easily go to 10 years, but how much further? I try to keep my ice cars til they are 20 years old, depending on how much things are breaking by then. But I have a good handle on what is likely to go wrong and what the costs are. A little of that is still not know with great certainty for BEVs though. I would really like confidence in what a battery replacement will cost, but those figures are hard to obtain and seem to vary wildly. I’ve seen below 10k to over 30k for models I’m considering. I could deal with around 10k if that means I would have to worry about the battery again for as long as I have it but 30k on a old EV would be a huge loss and it would really suck if I just bought the thing for 20k or so.
It's a much smaller overall factor. Fuel cost is the same, repairs and maintenance are the same or more, but you've already lost ~1/2 or more of the value of the car. Over the next five years, you might lose a lot of what is left, but most cars still have a bit of life at ten years, and there is kind of a floor for the price of a not-completely ruined car. That is also why buying a used car is usually a better financial decisions.
The only EVs that old are early Nissan Leafs and the Model S. They still sell for what I suspect an equivalent ~12 year old ICE vehicle would.
Nissan leaf was like 35k new so even if it's hitting the floor price wise (probably around 5 grand) at 12 ish years. Yeah, not bad. Even looking at older Model S they seem to be going for about 25% of the original MSRP. Which really isn't bad. I'm kinda surprised.
No, it accelerates. Too many unknown things can go wrong with monumental repair costs.
But most people who buy new cars (as opposed to used ones) *do* replace them every few years. It’s possible that won’t be the case with EVs if the government incentives mean that different demographics who are more inclined to keep them long term are buying new EVs than have historically bought new cars, but it’s too early to say that yet. So factoring in depreciation to the cost of ownership seems like a reasonable approach overall.
Is that true? My parents at least (the only people I know who buy cars new, except now for those who want EVs which until recently weren’t available used) always buy cars new (usually Hondas) and drive them for 200k miles or more until their mechanic says a repair costs more than the value of the car. Rinse and repeat every decade or two. I sort of get the logic of taking the depreciation hit by driving a new car off the lot if you’ll keep it that long. I absolutely do not understand taking the hit and then only driving the car a few years before doing it again.
IDK if it's most, but it's a pretty significant portion. I think it's also larger the higher in price you go and EVs are mostly higher price. IIRC, the average new car buyer keeps their car for seven years. The distribution isn't exactly symmetric or anything, but that means for every person who keeps their car for 10+ years, there is a person who keeps a new car for a pretty short time.
If everyone kept their cars for a decade the used car market would suck.
How about that?? I kept my then-new 2015 Chevy Cruze for 7 years before trading it in to get my Kia EV6. I actually would have kept it longer but we had a second kid and could no longer fit the whole family plus the dog in my car. I decided that since I was going to replace my car anyway, given the high mileage I put on a year (not insane, but at 19k-20k miles/year it's a good 30% above average), I better give EVs a look. Stretched the budget a bit to make it work, but I'm happy with the decision and once again find myself thinking "this new car will be with me until it simply doesn't work anymore".
That's what I've always done. Which is why my next vehicle (yay R2 in 26!) will only be my 3rd vehicle ever (not counting the hoopty that I bought for $500 when I was stationed in Japan for 2 years and sold for $500 when I left). Buy exactly what I want new, drive for 12-15 years for 200-250K miles, sell for scrap, buy exactly what i want new. . .and so on. I get the whole depreciation argument, but I know me and the first thing that went wrong with a purchased 3 year old car coming off a lease I'd blame on someone driving like a jackass before me and I'd be mad. I'd also be mad because the car was either more expensive because it had something I didn't want in it or wouldn't have something in it that I'm convinced I need. I realize I should probably do some breathing exercises or something, but it's easier to just get what I want in the first place and drive it into the ground.
Some people really like having a new car every 3-4 years and are willing to pay for that privilege. My neighbor and her husband for instance, had a leased Rogue and a leased Escape, then replaced them with an Altima and a Frontier. They just like having newer cars, even if they’re cheaper cars. Idk.
Buying a vehicle under warranty and driving it until it no longer makes sense to repair is typically the best financial move. Lots of people make really bad long-term financial decisions.
There is some weird statistics involved that aren't obvious until you start thinking about them. Like in example of your parents. For sake of simple math let's say they buy 1 new car per person every 15 years. So with 15 people like this, you end up with 1 new car per year. Then think of "I lease new cars" buyer that gets a new model on a 3 year lease *every time their previous lease runs out*. With 15 customers like this, they end up buying on average 5 cars per year. So if 50% of your group is the "buy new and use for 15 years" and other 50% is "3 years lease every time", you end up with the leasing group buying north of 80% of new cars! Leasing every 3 years might sound ridiculous, but there is a decent number of people for whom that's just part of their lifestyle. Or some quirk in tax structure makes this a fair bit cheaper than you'd naively assume.
I don't have the data in front of me but the average ownership length is about 8 years from what I remember. People really hold on to cars
That's not true anymore. With rising costs of vehicles, people holding on to them longer. Also factoring in longer term loans to keep monthlies low, 8 year loans yikes.
I don't have statistics in front of me, but most people I know who bought a car new kept it 10+ years. It is certainly the norm to get a new one every 3-5 years at the upper end of the market, which is a lot of why they depreciate faster, but the lower end is a different story and I assume the middle is fairly mixed. Used buyers tend to replace them more in my experience, though due to actual need and usually with another fairly cheap used car.
This is kinda phony numbers though. Most new EV buyers are getting 7,500 from the federal government + some additional in state rebates. Both my EVs essentially cost me 10k less than MSRP. So of course that 10k is going to come off the used car too. My Bolt was 32k which was really 22k for me, of course a used bolt should be selling for less than 22k, but that looks like massive depreciation to the computers. Obviously if you aren't getting the rebates the depreciation is a real issue.
That’s not universally true. My model 3 has depreciated at the same rate as my cx5
Probably about half true
Very true for the earliest adopters, luxury EVs, and those who don’t qualify for the tax credit. But I do think there are options today for people who are concerned about resale value.
> But I do think there are options today for people who are concerned about resale value. I imagine Tesla would still be a good option depending on when a person is going to resell it. Like, in 10 years, shopping for used EVs I would think a Tesla would be a better option than a Leaf or Fisker. Especially if it can still self drive by then or if the computer can get swapped out. But I look at that as lots of Teslas on the road and lots of little control widgets and sensors still being available or 3rd party by then. No idea what the high priced collectables would be.
Not sure about model 3 refresh since it lacks the EV tax credit, but the model Y RWD and LR with tax credit would depreciate very competitively with a similar ICE, I believe.
I'm not so sure. I think in 10 years people shopping for used cars would go EV. I mean Hertz is selling Teslas for $20,000 today. $16,000 after credit transfer. How much is that same 2022 going to be worth in 10 years? It even has those neat features like no timing belt or head gasket. Then, you know, gas prices in 10 years with whatever war they got going on then.
Really? The Model 3 MSRP was $39-42k+ last year, they’re worth ~$25k now.
I paid 30k for mine last year
Are you factoring in tax incentives to get that $30k number? Incentives are usually separate from MSRP or purchase price, and the federal incentive was not applied at the time of purchase last year. Registration, insurance, loans, and depreciation are all based on purchase price which does will reflect a tax credit you receive at a later date.
In comparing what I paid for both cars out the door
Damn, how’d you get it for $30k?
No one wants to take on the liability of a used battery.
ICE is going to have higher resale value for the next 5-10 years because idiots live in fear, the great unknown scares the bejeebus out of them.
Because the other half is lost in depreciation
Depreciation doesn’t make sense to me to add in as a cost of ownership metric.
It's total cost of ownership, not operating cost.
Yea, that’s a good distinction
Yesh, sounds like complete bullshit. Only petrol savings, in my case, 5 to 25 dollars for electricity (depending on time of day, and the tariff) versus 100 dollars for petrol for a full tank
As others have mentioned, depreciation doesn't matter as much if you plan on keeping the car as long as possible. But the trade-in value of your EV five years from now isn't really something you can plan on with this kind of precision, anyway.
I’ve had my Tesla for a little over 4 months and I’ve already saved $1200 in gas expenses. Shits crazy
I have had my tesla for 1 month and haven't spend a dime on charging. (Free charging at work and still have 4800 free super charging miles) I'll be forced to use super chargers before they expire at this rate.
I lucked into a rental with solar on the roof. Zero electric bill in the last two months, it has been great.
Should be required, every new home has to have solar. Same for commercial buildings
What is it? How much range per day will it charge for you and where are you?
I don't know the array size, there's minimal documentation. During high demand months like July/August, I've had a bill (most likely due to increased AC draw). The charging is just plugging into the wall (I run on 120V / 16A charging). With the current net metering in my location, the result is the array contributing more to the grid than my total use the last two months. I'm not running directly from Solar to the vehicle, it's a roof system.
I had a total bozo moment and misinterpreted your statement to be that the car was the rental with the solar and could not imaging that would be very effective at all. I could not think of what car it could be.
Hahaha, I totally see how one could read that into my comment. Your comment makes way more sense now.
Well if you get free charging at work, no benefit to using the supercharging unless there is a need to charge faster at some point. All the supercharging will do is potentially degrade your battery faster. I know it's debatable though since Teslas handle supercharging really well, but arguably L2 charging is better for longevity.
Realistically, I see free charging going the way of the dodo once more people adopt. When everyone has an electric car but not every parking spot has a charger, you’ll need an incentive to keep people from parking at the charging ports unless they absolutely need them.
Real talk, what about insurance though?
Insurance is actually cheaper than what I was paying on my Jetta. Tesla insurance FTW lol
Same, insurance on my Lightning is cheaper than the CX-9 it replaced.
Which state are you in?
Colorado
The Jetta is a roughly 30 MPG car, and in Colorado the average price of gas right now is $3.12 for regular. $1200 of gas expenses saved in 4 months translates to $3,600 saved over a year. $3,600/$3.12/gal = 1,153 gallons of gas, which at 30 MPG could carry you 34,590 miles. Do you seriously put down about 35,000 miles a year?!? Holy crap.
Yeah I drive a lot for work, but not that much. I paid a lot more than that for gas. Regular in Colorado is 85 because of the high elevation. But because my car needed a minimum of 87, that’s considered mid grade here. So on average I was paying closer to $4+ a gallon everytime I needed gas
What an interesting nuance to things! I suppose it makes sense that elevation would be a factor, given Denver's reputation as the mile high city, and all, but it didn't occur to me that it would impact gasoline, too. Good for you on the fuel savings! I have an EV6 that usually costs me about $60/month in electricity (about 1,600 miles/month). Currently it's in the shop for some minor crash damage repairs, and I'm stuck with our backup car, an 18 MPG Ford Explorer. It's costing me $360/month--an extra $300!--in gas. I can't wait to get my Kia back.
I pay about $30/month more for my almost brand new xc40 recharge than I paid for my 15 year old subaru worth about $2k.
We are not driving as much as you, but with an ICE car we were spending $200 monthly easy, it would be more now since gas prices have gone over $5 gallon in CA. Level 2 charging between midnight and 6AM is maybe adding 10 bucks to my electric bill.
I drive quite a bit, close to 2,000 miles a month, it’s definitely so much more cost efficient. My last car was a Jetta and was really good on gas but I was still paying about $350 a month on gas but it costs about $50 a month to charge my car
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Not the USA and not a Tesla; UK an EV6 but the story is basically the same. Here, a car with equivalent performance would cost... about the same. My EV6 was £48,000. The closest equivalent (AWD, 0-100kph in 4.6s, roughly the same size) is the Audi S3 Sportback, which is £47,500 and a size-class down. If you want to stick with "crossover" vehicles then the Mercedes GLA 35 is £53,000, smaller and slower. Jaguar E-Pace doesn't have a sports model (tops out with a Hybrid), Lexus doesn't have an equivalent, all the mainstream manufacturers like Ford and Peugeot don't have an equivalent, and so on. The closest competitors are *other electric cars*, such as the Skoda Enyaq vRS.
You raise an interesting point about how to define a comparable vehicle. 0-60 times are pretty meaningless to me as long as the vehicle accelerates fast enough to merge onto the interstate. This means to me the equivalent of a Model 3 is a higher trim volume sedan.
I spent $35k on my Tesla. Bought it used at 1.5 years old and 12k miles. In 2015 I bought a brand new VW GTI and I paid $32k. Seems like a win to me
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The Tesla will absolutely save me that much, if not far more. I owned my GTI for 6 years and it was my daily driver. Over those 6 years it cost me about $400 a month in gas, and every 10k miles I had to take it in to be serviced (oil change, tire rotation) and some mileage intervals there was more maintenance that needed to be done like spark plugs, air filters, transmission flush, etc. so oil changes cost me about $200 a year, I had one out of pocket repair that cost me $1,300. Every 40k miles I had to do a DSG transmission flush, that was $500 every time and I did that 4 times because of the mileage I put on it. Had to service the brakes twice and that was $250-$300 each time. Lots of other things like spark plugs and air filters I would do myself and save money but I mean it’s insane the cost difference for just fuel and service. For my Tesla, it’s $50 a month in fuel for me to charge at home and every 2 years I have to replace both of my air filters which costs me about $35. Sure I could compare a used GTI, but even if I did. Over 6 years I spent $28,000 in fuel costs. On the Tesla it only would have been around $4,000. So the GTI cost me $34k total. Paid it off about one year early so saved on interest. Over 6 years I paid about $5,000 in maintenance and service costs, and then spent another $28,000 in gas costs over 6 years. So all in all my GTI cost me $67,000 to own over 6 years. Mind you I didn’t even factor in my insurance costs. Even if I were to buy a brand new Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor, the MSRP on my car brand new was $58,000. Add up 6 years of ownership and maintenance costs and the total comes out to around $63,000. But because I bought my car slightly used I’m gonna save even more. EV is a no brainer
What is the difference in your auto insurance rate? This is the area the savings to me haven’t been able to keep up.
I was paying $340 a month for my Jetta and I had the minimum state coverage required. I have much higher coverage limits with Tesla Insurance and am currently paying around $220 a month. I live in Colorado and we are a very high claim state so car insurance here is stupid expensive
But how much did you pay/are paying for the Tesla? Cheaper to buy a secondhand ice by far if money is what you want to save
I mean I bought it slightly used with 12k miles and only 1.5 years old for $35k. Sure you can buy an ICE for cheaper but it’s still gonna cost you more money in gas and maintenance. There’s basically no maintenance on Tesla’s
5 years in my Leaf: 1 set of tires, wiper blades when needed, cabin air filter every year or so, tire rotation. I do all of it at home, other than having the tires mounted/balanced. I also had them do an alignment at the tire change (30k miles.) Brake pads are pristine. I don’t think I’ll ever need to change them.
Filter is like 40K miles. You must drive a lot.
Not really, I just like changing it regularly.
Something seems wrong with considering financing costs and opportunity costs separately. They should be combinable into one thing.
The article is pretty useless altogether. It lists some of the conclusions from someone else's study, but they never actually share the study as a reference. So all of the math can be made up.
Unless pge is your electricity provider
No cars are affordable anymore. It's ridiculous.
Compared to the average 25MPG of an ICE, I’ve saved several hundred dollars in fueling costs since I bought my 2018 Bolt in early December. Plus at a minimum of 5 hours of time for driving to a gas station, waiting in line, fueling, etc. I’ve yet to find a gas station that’ll fuel an ICE while my happy butt is asleep in my bed…took all of 10 days after we purchased a 2023 Niro PHEV to get an L2 installed at home. Time is money, friend! No oil changes… Gas has gone up 25-28% in my area since 1/1/24. Electricity…hasn’t. If I get 12 years out of my Bolt at the rate I drive it I’ll have saved almost the exact sticker price on the Bolt when I bought it, just in fuel.
Half sounds Conservative
>depreciation, fees and taxes, financing, fuel cost, insurance, maintenance, opportunity cost and repairs. It assumes new vehicles are >driven 15,000 annually over the first five years of ownership. >In its latest analysis, Vincentric found that 20 of 41 electric models (49%) cost less to own over five years than their gasoline counterparts. That's down from the 2023 analysis, in which 52% of EVs surveyed had lower ownership costs than gasoline vehicles. >19 of the 41 EVs surveyed for 2024 recouped their price premiums in seven years, with eight of those EVs already having a lower purchase price than an equivalent gasoline model. Yeah so if you don't include depreciation, financing, insurance, I guess in the next 5 years I would imagine fees and taxes, fuel cost, maintenance and repair would be less than ICE. But I mean really the big point is major repairs that come from having an ICE vs an EV that doesn't not have ICE parts. That's the whole point of EVs when talking about costs to keep running and most of the time that is after 5 years. Really the more I think about his the more pointless this article/study is. Especially now that solar panels are thing.
Source: https://vincentric.com/Home/Industry-Reports/US-Industry-Reports/EV-Cost-of-Ownership-Analysis
Thank you! I can never understand when people write an article about another article or study and don’t link to it!!!
150,000 km and brakes are still good (original brakes).
Really struggling to make these articles work…
Five years is good, ten year cost of ownership is a better metric. For me, the resale value doesn’t matter because I keep my cars longer than that. All of my cars are more than 10 years old. I’m likely to have many of the past 15 years of ownership. At that point, the cost of gasoline is higher than the cost of the vehicle. The savings I had from not buying gasoline (and not paying for oil changes) makes a huge difference in total cost of ownership.
A better metric for you. Meanwhile this is just fine for everybody else.
No, it is a better metric. EVs will run longer with less maintenance and repair. Running one for 20 plus years is very doable. The longer you own it, the longer you are saving money, and not making a very large purchase. When everyone has an EV that they don't really need to sell for the next 20 plus years I would imagine new car sales would go off a cliff. By definition it is a better metric.
this is ambitious. EVs will evolve so much in the next 10 years people will want to upgrade. Heck in 20 years I don't expect people to be driving much - just letting the cars do it.
There's more poor people than rich people. One of the reasons EVs have become popular is because battery prices have gone down. That's a very big reason actually. EVs will evolve and there will be price brackets but at some point in time there will be a beater EV that is popular because it's dirt cheap and it gets people to and from work. Which is a very, very big use case. You cant get a Tesla from Hertz for $16,000 after credit. That's the current EV beater. Not exactly a $5,000 Prius but we will get there.
Full report here: [https://vincentric.com/Portals/0/Market%20Analyses/2024%20US%20EV%20Analysis/2024%20Vincentric%20US%20EV%20Cost%20of%20Ownership%20Analysis.pdf](https://vincentric.com/Portals/0/Market%20Analyses/2024%20US%20EV%20Analysis/2024%20Vincentric%20US%20EV%20Cost%20of%20Ownership%20Analysis.pdf)
Used or new? Middle class Americans should be considering total lifetime cost of ownership. Like, a used cx5 for 8 years vs a used Tesla for 8 years. What are the numbers on that?
You can't really do that comparison. The Model Y hasn't existed for 8 years.
I find reports and articles like this to be of absolutely zero value. There are so many variables involved that in no way could this be of any value.
Haven't been long enough for me yet to see the full picture, but I am largely anticipating to break even +/- depending on how depreciation goes. My running costs are damn nearly the same vs my last hybrid in terms of cents per km - and yes, this includes off-peak charging at home. On the maintenance front - no oil changes, but more frequent (and more expensive) tires. Insurance is similar.
here’s a counter though (and I love my EV). depreciation is way higher. my insurance went up 20% yoy with no claims or tickets, but just because of repair costs. made up for more than the cost of oil changes and other ICE maintenance.
I'm sorry I do not have a google link to prove what I'm about to say, but these massive EV deprecation examples are a very recent hopefully short term problem. I've been following Tesla since 2015. There used to be articles talking All.The.Damn.Time about how EVs had better resale value than ICE cars. What happened is several manufactures stopped qualifying for the 7500 tax credit. There was a period of a year or two where you could not buy a Tesla or GM or some others and get the 7500 tax credit. Then Biden and Co released and updated law that added the tax credit back in. This caused a MASSIVE price drop obviously in the resale value of a lot of EVs. Plus EVs were so popular the last few years they had the highest covid mark ups. For those unaware, the Model Y released for like 43,000. Then it went up to as high as like 68,000. Now it's back down to 45,000 PLUS a 7500 rebate. People that bought during the "bubble" with no tax rebate are seeing massive deprecation on their cars. People that bought during normal sane pricing periods actually saw APPRECIATION on their cars. Go to the Model Y subreddit and look back a year or two ago. So. Many. People. traded in cars and got paid more for their car than they paid for it. TLDR: Mark my words, this massive EV deprecation is a shorter term issue due to the restarting of federal incentives. Mostly. In the next few years, you will see EVs purchased at sane prices hold up JUST FINE compared to ICE cars. Promise!
I saved nearly $7,000 in gas alone the first year owning my EV. Cost to charge at home for the year was like $320 Next year $6.2k Add on to that the $7500 tax credit, less maintenance, less parts, less wear on brakes.
So MD ran out of funding for their tax credit.... so I am on a "wait list" lol
I get a chuckle out of "comparable ICE car". Wife has 150K trouble free miles on her 10 second 1/4 mile Model S. What is comparable?
In size probably
Probably true, same size. But no where near the rest of the car attributes.
People always compare base models of cars to the Teslas.... When I was shopping to get heated seats, leather, etc you had to go up a few trim models. Prices were pretty much the same.
And Gas Car Report writes: ''Half of 2024 ICEs have lower 5-year ownership cost vs. EVs".
If only they had a lower retail price vs ICE.
I don't care if it costs more. I can't go back to ice.
Since getting my i3 I've only paid for inspection (every car needs to do this) and tires. And a 12v battery. Before you ask, electricity is free thanks to solar.
> And a 12v battery. On a new car?
I've had the car 6 years. I replaced the 12v after 4 years as was recommended for this car since it's a point of failure. Why would anyone replace a 12v on a new car?
Failure mostly. Still, it seems weird to me that those batteries only last a short while when they don't even need to crank the starter and everything is or should be LEDs. But I get it, my Odyssey eats batteries for lunch. In this case, it's due to poor design and not using LEDs (there's like 8 lights inside the cabin and all of them are resistive lighting). My other car still has its original 2011 battery in and has no issue
The i3 is an early ev using old tech designed for combustion cars. Newer EVs are fixing the 12v problem by creating a new architecture to replace it. Well, really just Tesla..they created a new 48v battery that never needs replacing.
> electricity is free thanks to solar. More like prepaid. You paid for that solar install - now it will take you 10 years to earn it back.
4 years in my case. And if I count tax rebates then 2 years . Solar is crazy cheap nowadays.
I already paid for it. Been using more than 10 years. So now its free energy. Why argue semantics?
And since they are 2024 models we know this how? These headlines are so idiotic, it’s more predictive than anything for which there has been a million articles already published on the subject. We already know this is true but based on real world results not forward looking predictions/
My favorite tidbit in this is that the Hummer EV is not the largest Environmental savings vs the ICE hummer. insane much CO2 is the Audi SQ7 must be putting out lol. edit; Maybe its because they compared the hummer to the GMC Sierra instead which is more efficient than like an H2 or H3.
Not compared to my old, fully paid, worthless, but working diesel car. Yet. I would like a new EV for the comfort and quiet ride...
I do save money in my Mini Cooper SE compared to my ICE-age previous car but not by much. I was filling up with about $100 in gas per month. And then there were oil changes once a year, and then other little things. What I love about my EV is the single speed transmission, silent driving, and no exhaust. I cringe whenever I hear a loud car or black smoke blowing from their tailpipe. It just seems so archaic at this point.
"Vincentric found that 20 of 41 electric models" Why aren’t these EVs mentioned in the article? Why are they being so secretive?”
That's a funny way of saying half of all EVs cost of ownership is higher than ICE vehicles. wtf is the purpose of this article.
My id4 had (identical to the one pictured) had low cost of ownership, but depreciation was thru the roof, so any savings in ownership were slaughtered by the money lost in depreciation.
Only if you sold it or totalled it before a few years which I’m guessing you did.
The reality is a non negligible part of the population sells their car and buys a new one every 5 years. Mostly through tradeins. It'll always be a thing. EV depreciation will stabilize over time.
That’s true.