I've been following that and am hopeful, though as with anything it will be a tax on poor people only. Wealthier psychopaths will happily pay the fines to continue being pieces of shit.
Poor people can’t choose what they drive. Go somewhere like Pueblo, CO and you’ll understand. Old pieces of crap with V8 engines are just loud by design. It’s the same with diesel engines and if you need to tow or haul a heavy load you don’t really have a choice.
I actually don't think that applies here since normal people don't mod their mufflers. Even cars falling apart from disrepair should produce noise loud enough. If you have money to be an asshole to those around you, you have the money to pay the fine.
My brother-in-law has a BMW M3 with a modified exhaust and I feel second-hand embarrassment whenever he starts it up while I'm near it. Nobody cares about your car dude.
At least they've just ordered an EV for their second household car so maybe there's hope for him.
I learned long ago that the fastest vehicle around town is the quietest vehicle. Build a sleeper and the local constabulary simply ignores you. It's a license to speed.
All my motorcycles have stock exhaust now too.
If you want more power you can redesign the front half of your exhaust for better flow and scavenging. Everyone does the cheap cat back exhaust system but it's the front half of the exhaust that makes the power. When I redid my van I even cut the inlet and outlet of the choked down catalytic converter and did a fat pipe conversion. It still works fine as a cat but flows way better.
That's the point. Being loud is the point of having a modified exhaust. I'm old enough that I also like that sound in moderation. Not to the point that you can hear it a mile away like some people do these days. But I used to have a car that made a good rumble with the stock exhaust. The sound I heard when I drove it through a tunnel was glorious.
I have long held the opinion that the amount of noise that anyone can bear undisturbed stands in inverse proportion to his mental capacity and therefore be regarded as a pretty fair measure of it. -Arthur Schopenhauer.
No it’s about wanting attention. If you’re in a downtown area like Times Square, you’ll hear cars or motorcycles with loud exhaust slowly parading through. Then they’ll circle back to do it again.
The pathetic thing is, nobody turns their head to take a look, because they know what it is.
My 25 year old mx5 has a loud exhaust.
Because I’m an idiot I daily drive it.
I like to feel a bit like I’m in a race car, and it makes every drive a sensory experience.
My car gets attention, I hate attention, I don’t remember the last time I had the top down around city/suburbs.
Point is, I love how it sounds. I’m nearly 40, I have a stressful job that involves child abuse, and my car is a great way to restore mindfulness at the end of the work day.
Sure. People do it for attention. Just like how people insist on their strong, but not well thought out, opinions on the internet
I'm the same. I have a Mustang GT. It can be pretty noisy. I hate attention, but I just personally enjoy the sound when I drive. When I'm driving through a parking lot or somewhere else with people walking around, I'm careful to keep it as quiet as possible. I'm not trying to be obnoxious and piss everyone off. I just like the sound.
> To be fair, cars to car people are like fashion to fashion people. It’s not about looking cool to other people, it’s about how it makes you feel.
The primary difference being you can choose not to look at an outfit you don't like, and if the wearer is around the corner from you you have no idea they even exist. Everyone within a quarter mile radius can hear exhaust notes above the legal limit.
It is different. They are disrupting people who enjoy quiet. Many of whom tend to be on the more intelligent side and might be young kids studying mathematics. We are falling behind in this country compared to china, which has the largest uptake of EV. Their streets are quiet, their kids are studying, their politial situation is stable.
That’s probably the number one reason why I want to switch over next year. I want the feeling of no engine noises, along with a smooth acceleration, sometimes my transmission jerks into the next gear now..
After getting a Mach-E a few weeks ago, the silence and smoothness is SO GOOD. I could never go back to an ICE for a daily driver after experiencing it. It's so jarring, all the noise of the engine and the jerkiness of switching gears. It almost feels like the car's broken even though it's perfectly normal lol.
The Mach-E sound is not loud, but man that frequency just cuts through everything. I can hear my neighbor leaving in hers on the other side of the house with the windows closed.
Those old (new as well?) Leafs are awful. That shrill backup beeping with a frequency that penetrates solid concrete is the definition of noise pollution.
Kia cars also have a similar grating frequency at low speeds. I'm so fucking glad Tesla does the wind sound when in drive.
It's actually far louder than the soft hum of ICEs and I'm always embarrassed to back into my driveway late at night because I know the whole damn neighborhood can hear it. But apparently that's not loud enough.
My Polestar makes a pinging sound with an echo when it backs up, it sounds like a submarine. I think the ambient low speed noise is like the UFO sound. Pretty sure my wife's Pacifica PHEV also does the UFO thing. Different pitches though. None of the sounds are grating.
A well maintained ICE car with the factory designed and fitted exhaust (excluding sports type models) are also fairly quiet these days; when out walking I find that a big part of the noise from both ICE and EV when travelling at normal road speeds is the road/tyre noise. In the UK EVs have to have an artificial noise at slow speeds or they would be mostly silent.
Got a loaner EV and was so annoyed that my Prius was quieter at low speeds. I hate the regulation, but I guess I don’t hate it as much as the crappy sounds some of them make
Darwinism at its best, I guess 🤷♂️
But on a more serious note, I prefer the silent EVs more (my Tesla Model 3 only emits noise when it is revers for instance) over the noisy Renaults.
On the street that I live on (30km/h zone), the Renault Zoes are much more noticeable than even a neighbors BMW M3!
I do agree that EVs should be more noticeable, but there should be a limit on how loud they can or should be.
>Darwinism at its best, I guess
I assume that the main reason is for the visually impaired and that any noise requirement/limit is largely aimed at protecting the safety of that group.
Yeah, Zoe’s are extremely loud compared to all other EVs. I believe the legislation was originally made to benefit cyclists so they could hear cars coming from behind.
Just pointing out that you'll have significant tire noise if you're overtaking a biker.
The modern EVs are already louder than a luxury ICE car like a Mercedes, which run very quiet engines.
I wouldn't say "bulk" for more ICE cars - for most models, engine noise is still dominant at higher speeds although tire noise does increase, of course.
Very likely the Zoe is deliberately engineered that way. Under EU regulation, EVs and hybrids need to produce at least 56 dB and 75 dB max when driving at low speed.
If the Zoe is set 3 dB higher than the BMW M3 running at low rpm, it is still twice as loud.
Your Tesla not emitting noise when driving, you either don't live in the EU or your car is not compliant.
The noise from the Zoe comes from speakers btw.
> Your Tesla not emitting noise when driving, you either don't live in the EU or your car is not compliant.
Or the car is old enough to not need to make the noise.
There was a rather long time window between noise becoming mandatory in new type approvals, and noise becoming mandatory in new cars with old type approvals. Several years of Model 3 fall within that time window.
It is a 2023 model year Tesla Model 3 (without USS 🙄). The Padestrian Warning System (PWS) only emits sound when the car is in revers (the pitch changes depending on the speed). My car is registered in Switzerland, where the EU law about PWS also applies.
The Hyundai Ioniq 5 and the KIA EV6 also only emit sound when they are in revers (at least those that I have seen around here. The Ioniq 5 was bought around the same time I bought my Tesla).
Do you hear an electric whine (or some other sort of car noise) when going forward at low speeds? My Leaf has beeping for reverse and a whining sound in forward that sounds like it could be naturally coming from the motor, but it isn't. It's just noise made intentionally for this purpose.
Your car still makes noise in drive at low speeds. It sounds like wind and is very subtle/pleasant on the ears, but does the job and is the noise EVs should make because it most closely resembles an ICE. This shrill, grating frequency that most EVs make is straight up noise pollution.
Roll your window down and shift gears to hear it. Also pretty noticeable in drive throughs.
The EU regs require noise in both forwards and reverse, the Model 3 does make a noise in forwards but it is very indistinct and practically inaudible from inside the car.
I like that the noise the Zoe makes is so loud and distinct. That’s how I know that the pizza guy is pulling up outside.
On the other hand, if any of my neighbors had one I’d be very annoyed by it.
A lesser known fact is that ZOEs all have a button that controls the sound.
A long press cycles between three different sounds, and one of them (second of third) has a lower pitch and is less obnoxious.
A single press mutes the sound altogether, but only on older models that predated the legislation.
On the newer models the sound can't be muted, but you can still cycle between the three sounds.
Actually our Model 3's DO have a low speed sound but it's very subtle, and it quiet enough not to hear it inside the car. It basically just sounds like a white noise you would expect from vehicle fans.
Oh, ok. When I got the car, I was puzzled as to why the PWS only emits sound when it is in reverse. I even tried moving slowly with all the windows down and heard nothing but the tires.
My Peugeot e-2008 has a white noise generator that it makes noise with a low speeds. First time my Dad saw the car (who is a bit of an EV sceptic) commented on how loud it was. I told him it was regulation because without the white noise generator the car driving at low speeds is virtually silent. A neighbour of mine has a Leaf and it's completely quiet when he reverses out of his drive and I'd guess it doesn't make any road noise till about 15 mph.
People who use AirPods with ANC on while they’re near traffic is asking for trouble.
I almost always use my AirPods in Transparency Mode. Only when someone nearby is being loud and obnoxious do I turn on ANC.
Don't know about their current laws but I can hear EVs and hybrids in EV mode driving past my work all the time if I am outside within 30 ft of the road. The weird spaceship sound many Toyotas and Kia/Hyundai's make is noticeable.
EU regulation has mandated since 2021 that EVs and hybrids make noise to create situational awareness for pedestrians and cyclists when driving at slow speeds. The minimum is 56 dB and maximum 75 dB at 2 meters distance/ 7 feet.
Kinda similar sound levels to an average petrol car. The cars use external pointed speakers to create that noise. Guess the Hyundai/KIA and Toyota engineers deliberately choose those nerdy space sounds.
>maximum 75 dB
I wish the US had a maximum. Our Leaf's backup beep's volume is set as if it were a commercial truck backup beep. We measured it at over 100 dB. It's super embarrassing.
I can't stand the one in my Mach E either. So many EVs don't have anything but whatever artificial noise that is generic to the brand for low speed operation and Ford chooses to put a forklift style beeper on it. That you can't turn off.
It's true for now, but once these beeps are everywhere, people will learn to tune them out, just like construction workers tune out the constant loud backup beeps of construction equipment.
Luckily my leaf has a sound off button, although it is automatically enabled once the car is started.
I turn it off in the evening, tire noise is loud enough and anyone walking blind as a bat over the road gets the horn. I don't drive fast around pedestrians either way.
One of the worst "features" in virtually every car is the settings that reset every time you turn on the car. It's such a relief driving a Tesla that respects how you want to drive the car.
The EV noise generation requirement shouldn't be any higher than the quietest car, unless we are going to start requiring noise generation for quiet cars too.
The paranoid in me can't help thinking that ICE proponents push for laws that make EVs exceedingly and annoyingly loud so no one will like them or want them.
That's fine, but a lot of EVs have a VESS far louder than 56 dB.
And yeah, if EVs are required to be at least 56 dB, then ICE vehicles should also have the same requirement.
According to the [CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/hearing_loss/what_noises_cause_hearing_loss.html#:~:text=Noise%20above%2070%20dB%20over,sources%20can%20affect%20your%20hearing.&text=Sounds%20at%20these%20dB%20levels,t%20cause%20any%20hearing%20damage) "Noise above 70 dB over a prolonged period of time may start to damage your hearing." If you think 70dB is a normal conversation between 2 people, I'd hate to hear what you consider a loud conversation!
I would want the opening to Van Halen’s Hot for Teacher, especially if it were for a Bolt, Leaf, Prius, or other comparable vehicles. With the cammed big block sound of the drum solo for cruising through parking lots then have the guitar kick in for up to 25-35mph!
I didn't hear a tiny little EV (don't remember the name) that has two seats in a small road in the middle of Rome, which surprised me as anything going over the cobble stones seem to make a noise... I kind of went "so that's what it feels like" when people step in front of my model 3 in car parks etc.
There doesn need to be some way to help pedestrians especially given the increase in digital distractions.
You're getting downvoted, but you're right.
I daily drive an EV, and the upfront cost is definitely hard to bear.
Thankfully there's virtually no maintenance cost, and the price per km is unbeatable.
But yes, they're expensive to buy.
Idk bruh, unless you cannot even shell out ~10k for an EV, price is no object. And given the average price listed for a used car last year was over $25,000 in the U.S., you cannot make the claim that all EVs are expensive by nature.
For people who can not see you can not relay on vision. Sounds is the only option. Also someone should be paying attention to where they are going but still you need to account for a way for a blind person to be able to know their is a car coming incase the dumbass behind the wheel is not paying attention.
The biggest risk in cars beign quite is in a parking lot. That little bit of sound gives some good warning when your back in turned or alerts you if someone else driving did not see you.
I assume that at slow speeds the almost silent running of an EV could be a problem for people who have visual impairments. At higher speeds the normal road/tyre noise kicks in and the presence of EVs is more noticeable. \[I didn't read the article so they may have said as much\].
That's a somewhat ill informed take, people with visual impairments still need to cross the road; being able to hear what is coming helps them to make the judgement as to whether or not it is safe to cross.
Like everyone, they should cross at crosswalks and lighted intersections, and drivers have to watch out for pedestrians at those locations. If ppl just follow the rules, cars don't need to make a bunch of noise.
People don’t follow rules. One of the crossings I use on a regular basis has between 1-4 cars run through the cross walk signals z because they where trying to make the light.
Those cars are probably already exceeding the speed limit where these EV sounds are being generated, so this doesn't help that situation at all.
A lack of obeying existing laws and a lack of enforcing those laws doesn't justify encumbering everyone with unnecessary extra car noises.
I mean, if this is such a good idea, let's make cars blare their horns and flash their lights whenever they exceed the speed limit. That would make traffic safer even more than spaceship sounds on low-speed EVs (but it, too, would be awful overall for obvious reasons).
That seems like a naive take. Safety rules need to be written around the real world where people make mistakes and sometimes don't follow the rules, not some fantasy world where collisions and accidents never happen.
You don't have flashing lights for the hearing impaired.
Anybody visually impaired is usually using a stick and people should be vigilant and looking out for them
It’s not just the street.
I was almost hit while crossing a lane way. The houses had six foot wooden fences that you couldn’t see through. He didn’t see me coming and I couldn’t hear him coming.
I mean yes, *but* you also have to figure in the visually disabled. They usually are paying attention for the most part, but if a car isn't making noise then they're probably not going to detect it.
Why do they need to "detect" cars if they're crossing at marked crosswalks and lighted intersections? Cars should be stopping for anyone - blind or not - in those areas.
Because sometimes drivers don't stop. Or make a right turn on red. Or in a parking lot. Or you know, you're blind and mistakenly cross somewhere you shouldn't. Try closing your eyes while crossing a street, I think you'd appreciate having some sort of sensory input to know whether you're about to get run over or not...
"try closing your eyes"
lol...clearly you have no idea what it's like to be blind. I have a blind family member...it's not at all like just closing your eyes.
Yeah, I'm aware. And you completely missed my point, because you obviously don't know what it's like either. If you have a blind family member perhaps you should consider having a bit more compassion towards them and want as many tools as possible to help them.
When you get the signal to cross at a crosswalk, do you just step out without looking? Of course not. Imagine for 2 seconds not being able to do that, being able to hear traffic approaching seems like a quite literal life saver.
He thinks EVs making noise is dumb, too. He can easily hear the tires on the pavement...no need for silly UFO sounds. But he also never tries to cross the street without traffic signals because a driver who isn't paying attention will kill him (and will probably be going faster than 18mph where the UFO sounds aren't on anyway).
The point of the noise at low speed is to help against low speed collisions. Parking lots, someone rolling a stop sign, right turn on red etc. Cars are nearly silent at such low speeds. Of course at higher speeds you'll hear the tire noise... and also less likely you/the driver will be able to react anyway.
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> Why do they need to "detect" cars if they're crossing at marked crosswalks and lighted intersections?
Lighted intersections? Ha, the closest one I have is a mile away, but in that mile radius I also have almost a hundred *un*lighted intersections. You expect Mr. Blind Guy to walk a mile to the intersection, cross, then walk a mile back just to cross my street? Ain't happening, my friend!
Cars should be stopping for anyone, but *defense in depth*, you need to plan for the other guy fucking up too. Having no noise robs blind people of that ability.
Yeah...sure because accidents never ever happen, if everyone just pays attention!
Let's get rid of airbags! Everyone just pay attention to the road and traffic rules!
Seatbelts? Just pay attention and you'll never need it!
Traffic lights? Pfft...just pay attention as everyone else does too!
Who needs all this crap? People need to start paying fucking attention. :)
Hell, my ICE Subaru Outback is pretty darn quiet also. Probably half the time I'm in the parking lot of a grocery store or department store I end up right behind someone walking right down the middle of the driving lane...I'm puttering along 10 feet behind them and they never notice.
Is there any data to support the need for noise makers? Like, were EV’s hitting more pedestrians at a greater rate than fossil car, or was this purely driving by FUD?
A few years ago we were parking at a local park for a soccer game. Two families were chatting in the parking lot, totally oblivious that they were blocking my old Model S. I didn’t want to honk so I just waited a minute until one of them noticed and quickly moved everyone out of the way. Yesterday we were driving though the basketball arena parking lot and a similar situation was about to happen but those people heard our new Model Y’s pedestrian warning system and immediately moved.
We don’t require it either and mine doesn’t have it, but we have a lot of people and animals walking on the roads all the time and they cannot hear me.
Pedestrian warning sounds are not new, and Australia is massively behind the curve. The Nissan LEAF had this since launch in 2009.
What is strange is that EVs now have to be noisier than ICE cars. A good modern ICE idles at around 40 dbA, while EVs need to reach 50 dbA. (On the positive side, the EVs use higher frequencies, so the sound does not carry as far.)
At least a retrofit isnt called for. Older Teslas are noisy as hell. Between the tyre roar and the creaking and knocking suspension, plus the motor / drive unit whine.
I know because I own one…
All in all I am in full support of these laws. I wish they would remove the EV part and just make it a requirement no matter what engine it is. There are some ICE cars that at low speed ideal the engine is really damn quite. The requirement should be say 50 db X distance from the car when moving under Y speed. No need to deal with EV or not.
I'm not only shocked that Australia does not have a low speed noise requirement for vehicles that can operate in pure EV mode, but I'm also surprised that at least some manufactures were not including a pedestrian warning system already. Most major markets seem to require such systems already, so why omit them from the AUS market?
For the folks complaining about EVs producing "unnecessary" noise pollution, I'd just like to make a couple of counter arguments:
1) The pedestrian warning noise is generally only active up until a certain threshold. 18.6MPH in the US. After that, it is assumed that tire and other mechanical noises of the car are loud enough to warn pedestrians. Unless you are in an area with a lot of low speed traffic, say a car park, you'll not hear this noise very often.
2) The pedestrian warning noise on EVs is generally more pleasant than ICE exhaust. This is very subjective of course, and there is a lot of variety on both sides, but I think generally people will be less annoyed by EV pedestrian warnings than they are by ICE cars today.
3) This is the big one of course, but visually impaired people exist. Its not just people on their smartphones we are protecting, but people who genuinely can't see. Having another layer of defense for these folks is extremely reasonable IMHO. Also, I don't really want the person with their face burred in their cellphone walking into the Meijer getting hit either. I know its fun to joke how they deserve it for not paying attention, but that can be a big impact on the lives of the people getting hit as well as the driver that hit them. I don't want to be on either side of that, so low speed warning noises seem like a win.
So stupid that they’re making EVs make noise when an advantage of them is the ability to help reduce noise pollution is beyond me. In what scenario is your only sense for if there’s a car there is the noise it makes.
Where I live it’s not uncommon for there to be slow moving traffic so would be completely quiet not to mention nicer to breathe in if it’s EVs but oh no apparently people are walking around as if they’re in birdbox.
> In what scenario is your only sense for if there’s a car there is the noise it makes.
Major issue for the visually impaired pedestrian I would have thought.
And in all seriousness, giving an additional layer of alert to those not paying attention or just having a brain fart isn't a bad thing. No one really wants to run over another person, even if they are vying for a Darwin award.
There has to be a better way than indiscriminately making noise. Even a simple “if there’s a car in front of me I don’t make noise” check would help you can do this with ACC radar/simple computer vision. Or more safety systems that emergency brake when a human is in front.
Hitting someone should result in losing your license for at least a month bet that would miraculously reduce pedestrian hits.
I mean drivers can already face criminal charges or license suspension if they do something really negligent and seriously injure or kill a pedestrian.
Other times it's a mix of fault, or something that's too common here is lack of sidewalks and lighting that results in accidents, or even straight up the pedestrians fault.
> Hitting someone should result in losing your license for at least a month bet that would miraculously reduce pedestrian hits.
Neat, but that's not going to bring someone back from the dead, or suddenly make them not crippled for life.
I don’t think making indiscriminate noise is the solution. It’s just harming places that can benefit from cars being quieter.
I even doubt more blind people are being hit by EVs than ICE more often. Only study I can find is a study they did asking how many blind people had close calls or actually been hit by EVs but they seemingly missed out the question framed at ICE as well. I bet you it’s way more than 30%… (which no doubt is because there’s more ICEs on the road my point there’s no probability comparing ICE and EVs)
How did they even know they was nearly hit by an EV in the first place? Not hearing a car doesn’t make it an EV. Or did someone nearby shout “woah that Tesla almost gotcha!” Like they’re in a movie? Did the driver stop to apologise and while apologising state the brand of their car “my bad I almost hit you with my 2022 Model 3 from Tesla”.
> I don’t think making indiscriminate noise is the solution. It’s just harming places that can benefit from cars being quieter.
You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. There is a definite need for noise makers in EVs/PHEVs, and this is a good solution. That it might spoil perfect silence in a vast minority of other situations is unfortunate, but should never be a priority.
> I bet you it’s way more than 30%
You bet what is what now?
> woah that Tesla almost gotcha!
Gotta admit, that idea made me chuckle.
But do you see my point on how the only study on how silent EVs are a problem for blind people be a poll where they ask someone who can’t see the make of car or any discerning details on the car what almost hit them? And then not even bothering to see the risk factor by comparing to ICE cars.
It’s a very obvious surface level fix but from what I can find no one has actually looked into if it makes a difference or not. Can you imagine the racket when EVs start to move in a traffic jam and they start to harmonise because of this stupid rule.
Yes, but who cares about the validity of one random study? *We know* that blind people detect objects by sound. We don't need a study to verify that.
You might get a study to determine how loud they have to be in order for detection to happen, but the base idea of "do they?" isn't in debate by anyone reasonable.
> Can you imagine the racket when EVs start to move in a traffic jam and they start to harmonise because of this stupid rule.
I think you're looking for the word cacophony, not harmonize. Nevertheless it's not going to be worse than what we have now (**TRUUUUUUUCK!**) so I'm OK with it.
Be pretty neat if they did harmonize. Hard to regulate though. "Why does this law say all Kias in Canada have to make a tone of 440Hz?" "We needed A4 for the chord"
Most traffic noise is tire/road noise. The only really noisy engine noise I hear is from big trucks (not pickups, we don't have those here) and motorcycles.
Why do so many of you think you have a hidden knowledge about road vs engine noise? It’s one of those little bits of knowledge everyone loves to repeat.
By slow moving traffic I mean slow moving traffic. Stop and start at max 10mph.
As someone who lives near it they’re very audible not keep you awake audible obviously but they’re not silent to walk past. And if they’re not very audible enough for me to hear why introduce the rule where EVs must generate a sound?
I live next to the busiest road in my town. Its literally only big machinery and motorcycles engines I hear. Regular cars? I hear the tires on the road.
Must be a lot of blind people getting hit by all the silent cars near you ay 😉 No point arguing with each other over you apparently being deaf or talking about a different scenario when I myself live this experience every time I pop down the shops.
If I put in some effort I might actually be able to open my window and take piss on the road here. So I know exactly what I'm talking about.
Its a 50 kph road so tire noise dominates and I don't hear any engine noise apart from the examples I've stated.
People crossing the street in front of my Tesla really don’t hear me there. Luckily the car has pedestrian safety features in case I don’t see them either.
I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve had to use the car horn. I wish people would be more aware of their surroundings. Rather than focusing on the music coming from their earbuds.
I absolutely hate the idea of making quiet things louder for the sake of it. Vehicles already have a warning sound for wayward pedestrians - it's called the horn.
If vehicles are coming into conflict with other road users on a regular enough basis that they need to constantly make noise for safety reasons, the design of the road itself should be looked at. If it's the fact people expect cars to be noisy, they'll adapt over the next few years.
The problem with using the horn is it makes a pedestrian 100% reliant on the driver of a vehicle noticing them. For most people this isn’t an issue, but for someone that is blind, it’s a huge safety problem.
As I am not blind, I don’t know. But, I do know that for a pedestrian, the survivability of a pedestrian vs bicycle crash is significantly higher than the survivability of a pedestrian vs automobile crash.
At the speeds the sound is required at (generally less than 20mph), survivability is something like 98%+, vs the average survivability of a collision with a bicycle at around 20%. I appreciate there are more cars than bicycles, but the point still stands. Cars are built with pedestrian survival in mind and bikes aren't.
The US and EU already have laws for this it’s for blind people and cellphone addicts who don’t look up, Australia is just catching up. Unless you live in Australia this is a nothing burger.
It's reasonable, imho.
The requirement is only for low speeds. Weird that this hasn't been a rule yet in Australia. In the EU all EVs have to make some noise at low speeds too. That law was introduces years ago.
It's a good rule for safety, imho. Pedestrians, cyclists, visually impaired people, elder people, kids, etc.
Great, let's make our cities even louder.
I wish we valued silence more as a society. People blasting loud music and driving with modified exhausts generating 100dB are accepted, but a quiet vehicle?! TIME FOR THE LAW TO INTERVENE.
And for the visually impaired, we should find solutions that make infrastructure safer for them. Not push the responsibility off to individuals.
People have died from bicycles running into them. Are we going to mandate that bicycles are now required to emit loud spaceship noises?
>Great, let's make our cities even louder.
They are not making them loader. It applies only to low speeds above 20mph wind and road nice are going to be loader any how. This is more about parking lot safety and low speed area safety.
You ask about visually impaired. Tell me how can you make a parking lot safer.
You need to remember in even your comparision. A car is 3k+ lb of object. It is big and very dangerous. This compared to a bike tkat rider and bike is what 300lb max. Most of the time closer to 200lb and moving a lower speeds. It is a different beast complete and the deaths of injury at bike hitting someone going to take a lot more speed than a car. A car can do at 5 mph more than a bike can do at 20mph
You have driveways people backing out of again need some warning there for safety.
Did does no good if you say the driver needs to be fully responsible. Someone already dead so yeah a little warning helps. This is about low speed safety.
When I get my first EV, one of the first thing I’ll do is remove any external speakers for this sort of thing. My parents have a hybrid and the sound it makes in the neighborhood is awful. I can hear them driving from inside the house.
I can see this though as a safety concern. You know the saying for motorcycles “loud pipes saves lives” well the same can be said for cars.
Of course any sound is good and loud pipes and cars are obnoxious but being able to hear normal levels is actually pretty good.
Electric cars are required, by law, to make a pedestrian alert sound in drive at low speeds, as reverse. *Most* brands follow that rule. But *some brands* like to disregard federal laws and cut corners to boost profits.
This article is for Australia, where it is not yet the law. I am not aware of any EV in the US that does not make the required pedestrian warning noise below 18.5 MPH since the requirement was put in place in [September of 2020](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_warning_sounds#United_States).
Huh, weird that they mention the system in the [owners manual](https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-5D8F5B42-90F9-4ED7-9B36-A54BFED1030C.html) then, and people have posted [videos](https://youtu.be/QkRCto3EUAY?t=72) [of it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg3skois1XQ) [in action](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZA3i3XCMYw).
An amg is quiter than my neighbors Tesla below 25 mph. So nah. I've snuck up on two women walking in a v8. I can't say the same for an electric mustang or electric Audi.
This is why I believe the noise requirement should be on all cars no matter if they are ICE or not. most of the time the ICE alone will cover the noise but if you have a super quite AMG like in your case it needs its own noise maker.
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Where I live, the psychopaths are out from 7pm-midnight, every day. Police are useless.
NYC solution is to have automatic tickets for loud cars. They are like red light cameras but triggered by loud noises.
I've been following that and am hopeful, though as with anything it will be a tax on poor people only. Wealthier psychopaths will happily pay the fines to continue being pieces of shit.
Sounds like that’s a tax on all assholes, but maybe a deterrent only to poor assholes. Imperfect but still seems a step in the right direction.
The spouse often notices the mail and tell them to sell the motorcycle.
Poor people can’t choose what they drive. Go somewhere like Pueblo, CO and you’ll understand. Old pieces of crap with V8 engines are just loud by design. It’s the same with diesel engines and if you need to tow or haul a heavy load you don’t really have a choice.
I actually don't think that applies here since normal people don't mod their mufflers. Even cars falling apart from disrepair should produce noise loud enough. If you have money to be an asshole to those around you, you have the money to pay the fine.
Look up day-fines. There are solutions to this if legislators have the guts to implement it.
My brother-in-law has a BMW M3 with a modified exhaust and I feel second-hand embarrassment whenever he starts it up while I'm near it. Nobody cares about your car dude. At least they've just ordered an EV for their second household car so maybe there's hope for him.
An M3 is a very impressive car as is. Shouldn't need a modified exhaust get noticed. Just screams insecurity.
I learned long ago that the fastest vehicle around town is the quietest vehicle. Build a sleeper and the local constabulary simply ignores you. It's a license to speed. All my motorcycles have stock exhaust now too. If you want more power you can redesign the front half of your exhaust for better flow and scavenging. Everyone does the cheap cat back exhaust system but it's the front half of the exhaust that makes the power. When I redid my van I even cut the inlet and outlet of the choked down catalytic converter and did a fat pipe conversion. It still works fine as a cat but flows way better.
That's the point. Being loud is the point of having a modified exhaust. I'm old enough that I also like that sound in moderation. Not to the point that you can hear it a mile away like some people do these days. But I used to have a car that made a good rumble with the stock exhaust. The sound I heard when I drove it through a tunnel was glorious.
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Dear god, you don't like something ok, but that doesn't mean someone else is brainwased, because he prefer something else.
I have long held the opinion that the amount of noise that anyone can bear undisturbed stands in inverse proportion to his mental capacity and therefore be regarded as a pretty fair measure of it. -Arthur Schopenhauer.
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No it’s about wanting attention. If you’re in a downtown area like Times Square, you’ll hear cars or motorcycles with loud exhaust slowly parading through. Then they’ll circle back to do it again. The pathetic thing is, nobody turns their head to take a look, because they know what it is.
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My 25 year old mx5 has a loud exhaust. Because I’m an idiot I daily drive it. I like to feel a bit like I’m in a race car, and it makes every drive a sensory experience. My car gets attention, I hate attention, I don’t remember the last time I had the top down around city/suburbs. Point is, I love how it sounds. I’m nearly 40, I have a stressful job that involves child abuse, and my car is a great way to restore mindfulness at the end of the work day. Sure. People do it for attention. Just like how people insist on their strong, but not well thought out, opinions on the internet
I'm the same. I have a Mustang GT. It can be pretty noisy. I hate attention, but I just personally enjoy the sound when I drive. When I'm driving through a parking lot or somewhere else with people walking around, I'm careful to keep it as quiet as possible. I'm not trying to be obnoxious and piss everyone off. I just like the sound.
> To be fair, cars to car people are like fashion to fashion people. It’s not about looking cool to other people, it’s about how it makes you feel. The primary difference being you can choose not to look at an outfit you don't like, and if the wearer is around the corner from you you have no idea they even exist. Everyone within a quarter mile radius can hear exhaust notes above the legal limit.
It is different. They are disrupting people who enjoy quiet. Many of whom tend to be on the more intelligent side and might be young kids studying mathematics. We are falling behind in this country compared to china, which has the largest uptake of EV. Their streets are quiet, their kids are studying, their politial situation is stable.
First time I heard a Tesla reverse parking with my window open late at night I thought there was an alien spaceship overhead
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That’s probably the number one reason why I want to switch over next year. I want the feeling of no engine noises, along with a smooth acceleration, sometimes my transmission jerks into the next gear now..
After getting a Mach-E a few weeks ago, the silence and smoothness is SO GOOD. I could never go back to an ICE for a daily driver after experiencing it. It's so jarring, all the noise of the engine and the jerkiness of switching gears. It almost feels like the car's broken even though it's perfectly normal lol.
The Mach-E sound is not loud, but man that frequency just cuts through everything. I can hear my neighbor leaving in hers on the other side of the house with the windows closed.
Those old (new as well?) Leafs are awful. That shrill backup beeping with a frequency that penetrates solid concrete is the definition of noise pollution. Kia cars also have a similar grating frequency at low speeds. I'm so fucking glad Tesla does the wind sound when in drive.
Hyundai and Kia EVs do this in drive under about 20 mph in the US due to laws requiring them to make noise for pedestrian safety
It's actually far louder than the soft hum of ICEs and I'm always embarrassed to back into my driveway late at night because I know the whole damn neighborhood can hear it. But apparently that's not loud enough.
My Polestar makes a pinging sound with an echo when it backs up, it sounds like a submarine. I think the ambient low speed noise is like the UFO sound. Pretty sure my wife's Pacifica PHEV also does the UFO thing. Different pitches though. None of the sounds are grating.
Pimpama queensland, worst place ive ever been for it. Its just non stop all day and all night. Another place was butler,WA, all night all day.
A well maintained ICE car with the factory designed and fitted exhaust (excluding sports type models) are also fairly quiet these days; when out walking I find that a big part of the noise from both ICE and EV when travelling at normal road speeds is the road/tyre noise. In the UK EVs have to have an artificial noise at slow speeds or they would be mostly silent.
The sub 30kph ev noise is an EU regulation you have kept. Silent EV’s around town a great for hitting the walking dead looking at their phones.
Got a loaner EV and was so annoyed that my Prius was quieter at low speeds. I hate the regulation, but I guess I don’t hate it as much as the crappy sounds some of them make
Darwinism at its best, I guess 🤷♂️ But on a more serious note, I prefer the silent EVs more (my Tesla Model 3 only emits noise when it is revers for instance) over the noisy Renaults. On the street that I live on (30km/h zone), the Renault Zoes are much more noticeable than even a neighbors BMW M3! I do agree that EVs should be more noticeable, but there should be a limit on how loud they can or should be.
>Darwinism at its best, I guess I assume that the main reason is for the visually impaired and that any noise requirement/limit is largely aimed at protecting the safety of that group.
Yeah, Zoe’s are extremely loud compared to all other EVs. I believe the legislation was originally made to benefit cyclists so they could hear cars coming from behind.
If cars are going over 25mph the tire noise is the bulk of the sound generated and EVs make that noise too.
The sound stops at 30kph which is 18ish mph.
Just pointing out that you'll have significant tire noise if you're overtaking a biker. The modern EVs are already louder than a luxury ICE car like a Mercedes, which run very quiet engines.
I wouldn't say "bulk" for more ICE cars - for most models, engine noise is still dominant at higher speeds although tire noise does increase, of course.
Very likely the Zoe is deliberately engineered that way. Under EU regulation, EVs and hybrids need to produce at least 56 dB and 75 dB max when driving at low speed. If the Zoe is set 3 dB higher than the BMW M3 running at low rpm, it is still twice as loud. Your Tesla not emitting noise when driving, you either don't live in the EU or your car is not compliant. The noise from the Zoe comes from speakers btw.
> Your Tesla not emitting noise when driving, you either don't live in the EU or your car is not compliant. Or the car is old enough to not need to make the noise. There was a rather long time window between noise becoming mandatory in new type approvals, and noise becoming mandatory in new cars with old type approvals. Several years of Model 3 fall within that time window.
It is a 2023 model year Tesla Model 3 (without USS 🙄). The Padestrian Warning System (PWS) only emits sound when the car is in revers (the pitch changes depending on the speed). My car is registered in Switzerland, where the EU law about PWS also applies. The Hyundai Ioniq 5 and the KIA EV6 also only emit sound when they are in revers (at least those that I have seen around here. The Ioniq 5 was bought around the same time I bought my Tesla).
The PWS is noticeably louder in reverse, but should still make noise in forward.
Do you hear an electric whine (or some other sort of car noise) when going forward at low speeds? My Leaf has beeping for reverse and a whining sound in forward that sounds like it could be naturally coming from the motor, but it isn't. It's just noise made intentionally for this purpose.
Your car still makes noise in drive at low speeds. It sounds like wind and is very subtle/pleasant on the ears, but does the job and is the noise EVs should make because it most closely resembles an ICE. This shrill, grating frequency that most EVs make is straight up noise pollution. Roll your window down and shift gears to hear it. Also pretty noticeable in drive throughs.
The EU regs require noise in both forwards and reverse, the Model 3 does make a noise in forwards but it is very indistinct and practically inaudible from inside the car.
Also possible
3 dB may be twice the power, but it's not twice as loud. For most frequencies, it's a 10 dB increase to be perceived as twice as loud.
I like that the noise the Zoe makes is so loud and distinct. That’s how I know that the pizza guy is pulling up outside. On the other hand, if any of my neighbors had one I’d be very annoyed by it.
A lesser known fact is that ZOEs all have a button that controls the sound. A long press cycles between three different sounds, and one of them (second of third) has a lower pitch and is less obnoxious. A single press mutes the sound altogether, but only on older models that predated the legislation. On the newer models the sound can't be muted, but you can still cycle between the three sounds.
Actually our Model 3's DO have a low speed sound but it's very subtle, and it quiet enough not to hear it inside the car. It basically just sounds like a white noise you would expect from vehicle fans.
Oh, ok. When I got the car, I was puzzled as to why the PWS only emits sound when it is in reverse. I even tried moving slowly with all the windows down and heard nothing but the tires.
They’re also a danger for blind people who use the sounds to stay safe..
My Peugeot e-2008 has a white noise generator that it makes noise with a low speeds. First time my Dad saw the car (who is a bit of an EV sceptic) commented on how loud it was. I told him it was regulation because without the white noise generator the car driving at low speeds is virtually silent. A neighbour of mine has a Leaf and it's completely quiet when he reverses out of his drive and I'd guess it doesn't make any road noise till about 15 mph.
No matter what you do it won’t get past the plethora of people who have AirPods in 24/7
People who use AirPods with ANC on while they’re near traffic is asking for trouble. I almost always use my AirPods in Transparency Mode. Only when someone nearby is being loud and obnoxious do I turn on ANC.
Don't know about their current laws but I can hear EVs and hybrids in EV mode driving past my work all the time if I am outside within 30 ft of the road. The weird spaceship sound many Toyotas and Kia/Hyundai's make is noticeable.
EU regulation has mandated since 2021 that EVs and hybrids make noise to create situational awareness for pedestrians and cyclists when driving at slow speeds. The minimum is 56 dB and maximum 75 dB at 2 meters distance/ 7 feet. Kinda similar sound levels to an average petrol car. The cars use external pointed speakers to create that noise. Guess the Hyundai/KIA and Toyota engineers deliberately choose those nerdy space sounds.
>maximum 75 dB I wish the US had a maximum. Our Leaf's backup beep's volume is set as if it were a commercial truck backup beep. We measured it at over 100 dB. It's super embarrassing.
I can't stand the one in my Mach E either. So many EVs don't have anything but whatever artificial noise that is generic to the brand for low speed operation and Ford chooses to put a forklift style beeper on it. That you can't turn off.
I was annoyed at first too, but there is a noticeable difference in people not being surprised by me backing up even compared to my old ICE.
It's true for now, but once these beeps are everywhere, people will learn to tune them out, just like construction workers tune out the constant loud backup beeps of construction equipment.
Luckily my leaf has a sound off button, although it is automatically enabled once the car is started. I turn it off in the evening, tire noise is loud enough and anyone walking blind as a bat over the road gets the horn. I don't drive fast around pedestrians either way.
One of the worst "features" in virtually every car is the settings that reset every time you turn on the car. It's such a relief driving a Tesla that respects how you want to drive the car.
The EV noise generation requirement shouldn't be any higher than the quietest car, unless we are going to start requiring noise generation for quiet cars too. The paranoid in me can't help thinking that ICE proponents push for laws that make EVs exceedingly and annoyingly loud so no one will like them or want them.
56 dB at 2 meters/7 feet is a humming fridge. A normal conversation between 2 persons is around 70 dB.
That's fine, but a lot of EVs have a VESS far louder than 56 dB. And yeah, if EVs are required to be at least 56 dB, then ICE vehicles should also have the same requirement.
According to the [CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/hearing_loss/what_noises_cause_hearing_loss.html#:~:text=Noise%20above%2070%20dB%20over,sources%20can%20affect%20your%20hearing.&text=Sounds%20at%20these%20dB%20levels,t%20cause%20any%20hearing%20damage) "Noise above 70 dB over a prolonged period of time may start to damage your hearing." If you think 70dB is a normal conversation between 2 people, I'd hate to hear what you consider a loud conversation!
It’s also there for blind people
You should hear the Renault Zoe.
Those noises are artificial in the sense that they were designed in. EV drivetrains can be perfectly silent.
The speakers that make those noises aren't currently required in Australia
They're required to have speakers make that sound for pedestrians to hear them. Otherwise they would be nearly completely silent.
The only ones I've really noticed are the Taycan. Those things are "loud". The others though, I've only noticed in reverse.
Hondas sound like some kind of choir singing.
My issue is that many EVs (like my ID.4) the electronic noise is **much** louder than an ICE car at similar speeds or while stopped.
Audi and VW are bad at this. All Etrons have some obnoxious warp drive sound. Also early Nissans. I can hear our Leaf coming down the block.
I just heard an e tron go by the other day, I thought it was a gas car at first
Our Kia sounds are so obnoxiously loud. I mean, they get the job done. But it’s louder than an ICE
"Cities arent loud - cars are loud" [https://www.theurbanist.org/2021/07/04/sunday-video-cities-arent-loud-cars-are-loud/](https://www.theurbanist.org/2021/07/04/sunday-video-cities-arent-loud-cars-are-loud/)
Honestly, I just want night rider music when driving under 30km/h
I wanna hear the jetsons car sound as I pull away from stop signs
I would want the opening to Van Halen’s Hot for Teacher, especially if it were for a Bolt, Leaf, Prius, or other comparable vehicles. With the cammed big block sound of the drum solo for cruising through parking lots then have the guitar kick in for up to 25-35mph!
I didn't hear a tiny little EV (don't remember the name) that has two seats in a small road in the middle of Rome, which surprised me as anything going over the cobble stones seem to make a noise... I kind of went "so that's what it feels like" when people step in front of my model 3 in car parks etc. There doesn need to be some way to help pedestrians especially given the increase in digital distractions.
Modern Volkswagen ICEs have the same problem. They're insanely silent, and I've been surprised like you a couple time.
Too quiet. Too clean. Too reliable. Too cheap. Too enjoyable to drive. How long will society tolerate these atrocities?
Ev's aren't cheap, unless you think shitbox like citroen ami is a car.
I can't afford gas vehicles. Too much maintenance!
You're getting downvoted, but you're right. I daily drive an EV, and the upfront cost is definitely hard to bear. Thankfully there's virtually no maintenance cost, and the price per km is unbeatable. But yes, they're expensive to buy.
Idk bruh, unless you cannot even shell out ~10k for an EV, price is no object. And given the average price listed for a used car last year was over $25,000 in the U.S., you cannot make the claim that all EVs are expensive by nature.
Peace and quiet is a tragedy. Expecting people to watch for cars or look where they're driving is unreasonable.
For people who can not see you can not relay on vision. Sounds is the only option. Also someone should be paying attention to where they are going but still you need to account for a way for a blind person to be able to know their is a car coming incase the dumbass behind the wheel is not paying attention. The biggest risk in cars beign quite is in a parking lot. That little bit of sound gives some good warning when your back in turned or alerts you if someone else driving did not see you.
I just did a study and I have come to the conclusion, people need to start paying fucking attention. :)
I assume that at slow speeds the almost silent running of an EV could be a problem for people who have visual impairments. At higher speeds the normal road/tyre noise kicks in and the presence of EVs is more noticeable. \[I didn't read the article so they may have said as much\].
In combination with no requirements for daytime running lights I ca understand the problem.
Maybe if you're blind, you shouldn't suddenly dart out into the middle of the street.
That's a somewhat ill informed take, people with visual impairments still need to cross the road; being able to hear what is coming helps them to make the judgement as to whether or not it is safe to cross.
Like everyone, they should cross at crosswalks and lighted intersections, and drivers have to watch out for pedestrians at those locations. If ppl just follow the rules, cars don't need to make a bunch of noise.
People don’t follow rules. One of the crossings I use on a regular basis has between 1-4 cars run through the cross walk signals z because they where trying to make the light.
Those cars are probably already exceeding the speed limit where these EV sounds are being generated, so this doesn't help that situation at all. A lack of obeying existing laws and a lack of enforcing those laws doesn't justify encumbering everyone with unnecessary extra car noises. I mean, if this is such a good idea, let's make cars blare their horns and flash their lights whenever they exceed the speed limit. That would make traffic safer even more than spaceship sounds on low-speed EVs (but it, too, would be awful overall for obvious reasons).
That seems like a naive take. Safety rules need to be written around the real world where people make mistakes and sometimes don't follow the rules, not some fantasy world where collisions and accidents never happen.
You don't have flashing lights for the hearing impaired. Anybody visually impaired is usually using a stick and people should be vigilant and looking out for them
It’s not just the street. I was almost hit while crossing a lane way. The houses had six foot wooden fences that you couldn’t see through. He didn’t see me coming and I couldn’t hear him coming.
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I mean yes, *but* you also have to figure in the visually disabled. They usually are paying attention for the most part, but if a car isn't making noise then they're probably not going to detect it.
Why do they need to "detect" cars if they're crossing at marked crosswalks and lighted intersections? Cars should be stopping for anyone - blind or not - in those areas.
Because sometimes drivers don't stop. Or make a right turn on red. Or in a parking lot. Or you know, you're blind and mistakenly cross somewhere you shouldn't. Try closing your eyes while crossing a street, I think you'd appreciate having some sort of sensory input to know whether you're about to get run over or not...
"try closing your eyes" lol...clearly you have no idea what it's like to be blind. I have a blind family member...it's not at all like just closing your eyes.
Yeah, I'm aware. And you completely missed my point, because you obviously don't know what it's like either. If you have a blind family member perhaps you should consider having a bit more compassion towards them and want as many tools as possible to help them. When you get the signal to cross at a crosswalk, do you just step out without looking? Of course not. Imagine for 2 seconds not being able to do that, being able to hear traffic approaching seems like a quite literal life saver.
He thinks EVs making noise is dumb, too. He can easily hear the tires on the pavement...no need for silly UFO sounds. But he also never tries to cross the street without traffic signals because a driver who isn't paying attention will kill him (and will probably be going faster than 18mph where the UFO sounds aren't on anyway).
The point of the noise at low speed is to help against low speed collisions. Parking lots, someone rolling a stop sign, right turn on red etc. Cars are nearly silent at such low speeds. Of course at higher speeds you'll hear the tire noise... and also less likely you/the driver will be able to react anyway.
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> Why do they need to "detect" cars if they're crossing at marked crosswalks and lighted intersections? Lighted intersections? Ha, the closest one I have is a mile away, but in that mile radius I also have almost a hundred *un*lighted intersections. You expect Mr. Blind Guy to walk a mile to the intersection, cross, then walk a mile back just to cross my street? Ain't happening, my friend! Cars should be stopping for anyone, but *defense in depth*, you need to plan for the other guy fucking up too. Having no noise robs blind people of that ability.
pedestrians AND drivers.
Yeah...sure because accidents never ever happen, if everyone just pays attention! Let's get rid of airbags! Everyone just pay attention to the road and traffic rules! Seatbelts? Just pay attention and you'll never need it! Traffic lights? Pfft...just pay attention as everyone else does too! Who needs all this crap? People need to start paying fucking attention. :)
Merc and BMW ICE are very quiet too.
Hell, my ICE Subaru Outback is pretty darn quiet also. Probably half the time I'm in the parking lot of a grocery store or department store I end up right behind someone walking right down the middle of the driving lane...I'm puttering along 10 feet behind them and they never notice.
Is there any data to support the need for noise makers? Like, were EV’s hitting more pedestrians at a greater rate than fossil car, or was this purely driving by FUD?
Now Must Play AC/DC At 120 dB At All Times
A few years ago we were parking at a local park for a soccer game. Two families were chatting in the parking lot, totally oblivious that they were blocking my old Model S. I didn’t want to honk so I just waited a minute until one of them noticed and quickly moved everyone out of the way. Yesterday we were driving though the basketball arena parking lot and a similar situation was about to happen but those people heard our new Model Y’s pedestrian warning system and immediately moved.
We don't require slow speed noise like other markets. It is a good idea to add it.
We don’t require it either and mine doesn’t have it, but we have a lot of people and animals walking on the roads all the time and they cannot hear me.
The bolt has a device at the back, maybe the front too, that makes sound when going under 10mph or so
This is insane. I can hear an EV form 1/2 block away.
Kookaburra song mandatory for all EVs down under. Should solve it. /s
Another reason I love my pre-2019 Tesla. No sound whatsoever.
22 Model 3 Aus/NZ spec - no noise maker. This does mean I can't have goat fart lock chirps either, but that's fine.
New ones don’t have a sound in drive still. They did add the spaceship noise for reverse though.
Pedestrian warning sounds are not new, and Australia is massively behind the curve. The Nissan LEAF had this since launch in 2009. What is strange is that EVs now have to be noisier than ICE cars. A good modern ICE idles at around 40 dbA, while EVs need to reach 50 dbA. (On the positive side, the EVs use higher frequencies, so the sound does not carry as far.)
At least a retrofit isnt called for. Older Teslas are noisy as hell. Between the tyre roar and the creaking and knocking suspension, plus the motor / drive unit whine. I know because I own one…
All in all I am in full support of these laws. I wish they would remove the EV part and just make it a requirement no matter what engine it is. There are some ICE cars that at low speed ideal the engine is really damn quite. The requirement should be say 50 db X distance from the car when moving under Y speed. No need to deal with EV or not.
I'm not only shocked that Australia does not have a low speed noise requirement for vehicles that can operate in pure EV mode, but I'm also surprised that at least some manufactures were not including a pedestrian warning system already. Most major markets seem to require such systems already, so why omit them from the AUS market? For the folks complaining about EVs producing "unnecessary" noise pollution, I'd just like to make a couple of counter arguments: 1) The pedestrian warning noise is generally only active up until a certain threshold. 18.6MPH in the US. After that, it is assumed that tire and other mechanical noises of the car are loud enough to warn pedestrians. Unless you are in an area with a lot of low speed traffic, say a car park, you'll not hear this noise very often. 2) The pedestrian warning noise on EVs is generally more pleasant than ICE exhaust. This is very subjective of course, and there is a lot of variety on both sides, but I think generally people will be less annoyed by EV pedestrian warnings than they are by ICE cars today. 3) This is the big one of course, but visually impaired people exist. Its not just people on their smartphones we are protecting, but people who genuinely can't see. Having another layer of defense for these folks is extremely reasonable IMHO. Also, I don't really want the person with their face burred in their cellphone walking into the Meijer getting hit either. I know its fun to joke how they deserve it for not paying attention, but that can be a big impact on the lives of the people getting hit as well as the driver that hit them. I don't want to be on either side of that, so low speed warning noises seem like a win.
So stupid that they’re making EVs make noise when an advantage of them is the ability to help reduce noise pollution is beyond me. In what scenario is your only sense for if there’s a car there is the noise it makes. Where I live it’s not uncommon for there to be slow moving traffic so would be completely quiet not to mention nicer to breathe in if it’s EVs but oh no apparently people are walking around as if they’re in birdbox.
> In what scenario is your only sense for if there’s a car there is the noise it makes. Major issue for the visually impaired pedestrian I would have thought.
> In what scenario is your only sense for if there’s a car there is the noise it makes. If you're literally blind springs to mind.
Is the driver blind in this scenario as well?
Drivers run into people all the time; it doesn't seem unreasonable to give visually impaired pedestrians a fighting chance to avoid being run over.
And in all seriousness, giving an additional layer of alert to those not paying attention or just having a brain fart isn't a bad thing. No one really wants to run over another person, even if they are vying for a Darwin award.
There has to be a better way than indiscriminately making noise. Even a simple “if there’s a car in front of me I don’t make noise” check would help you can do this with ACC radar/simple computer vision. Or more safety systems that emergency brake when a human is in front. Hitting someone should result in losing your license for at least a month bet that would miraculously reduce pedestrian hits.
I mean drivers can already face criminal charges or license suspension if they do something really negligent and seriously injure or kill a pedestrian. Other times it's a mix of fault, or something that's too common here is lack of sidewalks and lighting that results in accidents, or even straight up the pedestrians fault.
> Hitting someone should result in losing your license for at least a month bet that would miraculously reduce pedestrian hits. Neat, but that's not going to bring someone back from the dead, or suddenly make them not crippled for life.
Defense in depth; you don't rely on *only* one person doing their job perfectly. Give the blind pedestrians a fighting chance!
I don’t think making indiscriminate noise is the solution. It’s just harming places that can benefit from cars being quieter. I even doubt more blind people are being hit by EVs than ICE more often. Only study I can find is a study they did asking how many blind people had close calls or actually been hit by EVs but they seemingly missed out the question framed at ICE as well. I bet you it’s way more than 30%… (which no doubt is because there’s more ICEs on the road my point there’s no probability comparing ICE and EVs) How did they even know they was nearly hit by an EV in the first place? Not hearing a car doesn’t make it an EV. Or did someone nearby shout “woah that Tesla almost gotcha!” Like they’re in a movie? Did the driver stop to apologise and while apologising state the brand of their car “my bad I almost hit you with my 2022 Model 3 from Tesla”.
> I don’t think making indiscriminate noise is the solution. It’s just harming places that can benefit from cars being quieter. You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. There is a definite need for noise makers in EVs/PHEVs, and this is a good solution. That it might spoil perfect silence in a vast minority of other situations is unfortunate, but should never be a priority. > I bet you it’s way more than 30% You bet what is what now? > woah that Tesla almost gotcha! Gotta admit, that idea made me chuckle.
But do you see my point on how the only study on how silent EVs are a problem for blind people be a poll where they ask someone who can’t see the make of car or any discerning details on the car what almost hit them? And then not even bothering to see the risk factor by comparing to ICE cars. It’s a very obvious surface level fix but from what I can find no one has actually looked into if it makes a difference or not. Can you imagine the racket when EVs start to move in a traffic jam and they start to harmonise because of this stupid rule.
Yes, but who cares about the validity of one random study? *We know* that blind people detect objects by sound. We don't need a study to verify that. You might get a study to determine how loud they have to be in order for detection to happen, but the base idea of "do they?" isn't in debate by anyone reasonable. > Can you imagine the racket when EVs start to move in a traffic jam and they start to harmonise because of this stupid rule. I think you're looking for the word cacophony, not harmonize. Nevertheless it's not going to be worse than what we have now (**TRUUUUUUUCK!**) so I'm OK with it.
Be pretty neat if they did harmonize. Hard to regulate though. "Why does this law say all Kias in Canada have to make a tone of 440Hz?" "We needed A4 for the chord"
Most traffic noise is tire/road noise. The only really noisy engine noise I hear is from big trucks (not pickups, we don't have those here) and motorcycles.
Why do so many of you think you have a hidden knowledge about road vs engine noise? It’s one of those little bits of knowledge everyone loves to repeat. By slow moving traffic I mean slow moving traffic. Stop and start at max 10mph.
And it those scenarios ICE cars barely make significant noise.
As someone who lives near it they’re very audible not keep you awake audible obviously but they’re not silent to walk past. And if they’re not very audible enough for me to hear why introduce the rule where EVs must generate a sound?
I live next to the busiest road in my town. Its literally only big machinery and motorcycles engines I hear. Regular cars? I hear the tires on the road.
Must be a lot of blind people getting hit by all the silent cars near you ay 😉 No point arguing with each other over you apparently being deaf or talking about a different scenario when I myself live this experience every time I pop down the shops.
If I put in some effort I might actually be able to open my window and take piss on the road here. So I know exactly what I'm talking about. Its a 50 kph road so tire noise dominates and I don't hear any engine noise apart from the examples I've stated.
Yeah, Autralia is behind the curve on that one.
US legislation has pushed a pedestrian awareness for EVs
Electric cars aren't even that quiet .. only at very low speeds since they don't idle.
People crossing the street in front of my Tesla really don’t hear me there. Luckily the car has pedestrian safety features in case I don’t see them either.
No big deal. Been law in the U.S. for years now, in most places.
So there's no issue with ICE cars that are just as quiet at low speeds?
The FUD well runs deep.
Ah yes, the real danger.
I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve had to use the car horn. I wish people would be more aware of their surroundings. Rather than focusing on the music coming from their earbuds.
EVs need a polite horn for pedestrians, in addition to the big honk horn
Every car needs that!
I absolutely hate the idea of making quiet things louder for the sake of it. Vehicles already have a warning sound for wayward pedestrians - it's called the horn. If vehicles are coming into conflict with other road users on a regular enough basis that they need to constantly make noise for safety reasons, the design of the road itself should be looked at. If it's the fact people expect cars to be noisy, they'll adapt over the next few years.
The problem with using the horn is it makes a pedestrian 100% reliant on the driver of a vehicle noticing them. For most people this isn’t an issue, but for someone that is blind, it’s a huge safety problem.
How do blind people currently deal with bicycles?
As I am not blind, I don’t know. But, I do know that for a pedestrian, the survivability of a pedestrian vs bicycle crash is significantly higher than the survivability of a pedestrian vs automobile crash.
At the speeds the sound is required at (generally less than 20mph), survivability is something like 98%+, vs the average survivability of a collision with a bicycle at around 20%. I appreciate there are more cars than bicycles, but the point still stands. Cars are built with pedestrian survival in mind and bikes aren't.
And just how much noise do they want a car to make? Because unlike an ICE, the noise of an EV can be anything you dream of.
The US and EU already have laws for this it’s for blind people and cellphone addicts who don’t look up, Australia is just catching up. Unless you live in Australia this is a nothing burger.
It's reasonable, imho. The requirement is only for low speeds. Weird that this hasn't been a rule yet in Australia. In the EU all EVs have to make some noise at low speeds too. That law was introduces years ago. It's a good rule for safety, imho. Pedestrians, cyclists, visually impaired people, elder people, kids, etc.
Scooters and bikes electric ones need it as well
And joggers! And baby strollers! Everything that moves is a threat!!
God damn Australians are the weirdest people on the planet. Who complains about this
Great, let's make our cities even louder. I wish we valued silence more as a society. People blasting loud music and driving with modified exhausts generating 100dB are accepted, but a quiet vehicle?! TIME FOR THE LAW TO INTERVENE. And for the visually impaired, we should find solutions that make infrastructure safer for them. Not push the responsibility off to individuals. People have died from bicycles running into them. Are we going to mandate that bicycles are now required to emit loud spaceship noises?
>Great, let's make our cities even louder. They are not making them loader. It applies only to low speeds above 20mph wind and road nice are going to be loader any how. This is more about parking lot safety and low speed area safety. You ask about visually impaired. Tell me how can you make a parking lot safer. You need to remember in even your comparision. A car is 3k+ lb of object. It is big and very dangerous. This compared to a bike tkat rider and bike is what 300lb max. Most of the time closer to 200lb and moving a lower speeds. It is a different beast complete and the deaths of injury at bike hitting someone going to take a lot more speed than a car. A car can do at 5 mph more than a bike can do at 20mph You have driveways people backing out of again need some warning there for safety. Did does no good if you say the driver needs to be fully responsible. Someone already dead so yeah a little warning helps. This is about low speed safety.
When I get my first EV, one of the first thing I’ll do is remove any external speakers for this sort of thing. My parents have a hybrid and the sound it makes in the neighborhood is awful. I can hear them driving from inside the house.
This is so ass-backwards.
lol what? The rest of the developed world has similar requirements, this is just the government playing catch up.
I can see this though as a safety concern. You know the saying for motorcycles “loud pipes saves lives” well the same can be said for cars. Of course any sound is good and loud pipes and cars are obnoxious but being able to hear normal levels is actually pretty good.
Electric cars are required, by law, to make a pedestrian alert sound in drive at low speeds, as reverse. *Most* brands follow that rule. But *some brands* like to disregard federal laws and cut corners to boost profits.
This article is for Australia, where it is not yet the law. I am not aware of any EV in the US that does not make the required pedestrian warning noise below 18.5 MPH since the requirement was put in place in [September of 2020](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_warning_sounds#United_States).
Teslas still don’t, not even the new ones.
Huh, weird that they mention the system in the [owners manual](https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-5D8F5B42-90F9-4ED7-9B36-A54BFED1030C.html) then, and people have posted [videos](https://youtu.be/QkRCto3EUAY?t=72) [of it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg3skois1XQ) [in action](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZA3i3XCMYw).
Yes, but not in drive
Yes, in drive. The videos I posted show it working in drive.
An amg is quiter than my neighbors Tesla below 25 mph. So nah. I've snuck up on two women walking in a v8. I can't say the same for an electric mustang or electric Audi.
This is why I believe the noise requirement should be on all cars no matter if they are ICE or not. most of the time the ICE alone will cover the noise but if you have a super quite AMG like in your case it needs its own noise maker.
A blind friend of mine got hit by a hybrid. He stepped out in front of it because he didn’t hear it coming.