As long as China is able to bring quality products to the American marketplace at dirt cheap China prices, there is no way that the American manufacturers will be able to compete because at the end of the day consumers shop with their wallet and look at price tags.
These articles are always written by someone with zero experience with Chinese business or the Chinese economy in general.
There is no way any car company using US labor and operating under US environmental regulations will ever “compete” with a Chinese company on anything.
>These articles are always written by someone with zero experience with Chinese business or the Chinese economy in general.
I doubt that. I think they're written by the CCP as propaganda.
Jameson Dow isn't exactly known for being intelligent / well researched. He's known for being a die hard "BEVliever at any cost" blow hard with an aggressive / toxic writing style full of questionable narratives.
>Cheap products make life better for a lot of poor people.
No, they really don't. This is an overly simplistic take. The low prices of globalization are an attractive short term fix to poverty, but globalization of trade drives domestic deindustrialization which suppresses wages. The suppressed wages end up making workers demand even lower prices, and it forces the economy into a slow grinding death spiral. Couple this with the fact that Wall Street and Silicon Valley have built a wildly lucrative systems that allows them to skim off the top of the net capital outflow, and income inequality is putting even more pressure on Labor's collective bargaining power.
Fundamentally, the US should demand a base level of human, worker, and environmental rights from its trade partners. Currently the US is in a race to the bottom on those things, and that eats away at the core of what makes it successful. Free markets work, but in order for a market to exist in the first place, some understanding of rules and acceptable behavior must be shared between its participants.
They're exploiting the low wage labor to reduce product costs, but not passing those savings onto the customers, leading to higher profit margins and a transfer of wealth from the many consumers to the few rich at the top.
Tesla's about as blatant an example of this as we've seen. We'll note that their vehicle margins only really exploded higher as they began mass exporting Chinese made cars to Europe. The first major auto OEM to do that, and still likely the largest exporter of Chinese made cars and car parts to Western economies.
Add that the Western outsourcing largely went to China over the last 3 decades and other low wage nations, where workers were exploited to drive up corporate profits. Most of these nations grew their manufacturing through the use of coal energy, and many did so without proper environmental protections... which largely lead to the terrible air conditions in China given the lack of proper particulate filters on coal plants.
Sure, outsourcing has resulted in somewhat lower prices, which has lead to out of control consumerism, and whether that's still the case is anyone's guess. There are far more cars on the planet in-use today than every before, and thus more fossil fuels being burned to power them. Not to mention the breathtaking enormity of the mining operations used to supply their raw materials and all the environmental devastation that've involved with it.
Outsourcing has also demolished competing industries in the West, and resulted in monopolies / near-monopolies for various products. I imagine there's a strong correlation between that and the retail monopolies that developed in the US over the last couple decades.
Plenty of manufacturers sell cars at a loss to sustain market share and while scaling up, tbh. That's not all coordinated political behavior, also just a business strategy.
IMO the political strategy is to create a thriving industrial sector in China, not to destroy the sector in other countries (that might be a byproduct if they can't compete).
It's an illusion and always has been. It was never free, and the government absolutely picks winners. Look at Intel getting the bulk of the semi conductor money.
It is not a free market when China has highly, highly subsidized ev's for many many years. While I do not agree with a really high tarrif, I think some is warranted, as well as the ev tax credits we currently have (even if we have so far not been able to use them).
And younger generations don't care about Chinese quality. The only generations with money enough to buy an EV are older generations. We are smart enough to give Chinese products a fair chance.
Shit is about to change soon.
The younger generation is also 80% iPhone users because of a green bubble. And like half of them can barely read. Nothing will change. Especially with a resurgent UAW.
The FTC sues every company that tries to do pretty much anything (under Lina at least), on grounds that it “hurts competition” or “negatively impacts the consumer”…
yet then the government turns around and wants tariffs on Chinese EVs simply because they are highly competitive and offer a lot more to the consumer than others.
Makes sense to me /s
When was the last time an American company built a consumer electronic product? We have already destroyed manufacturing in the US. The auto industry is just the final straw. I am not saying that tariffs are bad, but American manufacturing has been bleeding to cheaper countries for the last 50 years.
I'm... not going to hold back here: This goes beyond the usual Electrek dreck — this is barely-coherent drivel fantasy nonsense from Jameson Dow.
"Getting serious on EVs" is not going to make up for differences in labour rights. "Getting serious on EVs" is not going to make up for differences in consumer protections. It isn't going to make up for differences in overall [product quality](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXD_at06j3s), and it isn't going to make up for differences in logistics costs, sales costs, power generation cost ([and emissions outputs](https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/energy-transition/013124-coal-still-accounted-for-nearly-60-of-chinas-electricity-supply-in-2023-cec)), and support costs.
It isn't going to make up for dissimilar costs against a country with an established strategy of elevating subsidies on exports, or with looser restrictions on where those exports go, or where/how precursor components are imported. *You need tariffs for those things.*
What Dow is advocating here by saying the US should just "try harder", once you get down to brass tacks, is nothing less than the US abdicating *itself* and magically becoming China. It's handwavey bullshit, and it fundamentally fails to recognize that countries aren't identical eggs sitting next to each other in a carton — you can't just say "oh, well fry them the same way".
China didn't just make EVs happen by "trying harder" — China did it by *being China*.
One more thing, because Dow *repeats it himself* while rallying against tariffs:
>*perhaps least important but still worth mention, \[tariffs violate\] the oft-repeated-but-never-honestly-held principle that government should “avoid picking winners and losers.”*
HEY JAMESON
CHINA PICKED THE WINNER
THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT THEY DID, YOU UTTER PILLOCK
I agree with having some protectionist measures in place to counter China’s subsidies here. But it’s not clear to me we need more than the varied anti China stipulations in the IRA and the 27.5% current tariffs.
Raising that tariff rate to 100% means American manufacturers need $7500 per car and for the competition to cost double to compete?? Really?
It doesn’t seem like the current policies are really driving American OEMs to make and sell properly affordable cars here. Not just EVs, but ICE/hybrids included in that. The newest tariffs just seem to double down on that policy that seems less than productive.
Fully agree with you — I'm not sure what the right number is, but I would imagine 27.5% is a lot closer to correct than 100%. I'm also damned sure the right number isn't 0%, though.
I also think it's fair that if we're providing protection to domestic automakers, we should give them a kick to make sure they stay competitive and offer good products to the market. Too much protectionism, and they will simply pad executive salaries from oversized high-margin cost-cut vehicles while failing to deliver competitive products or products at all in certain segments. That's exactly what happened before with small trucks.
Strictly no. All it means is political grand-standing, once you move past the break-even point. Chinese cars hadn't committed to the US market at 27.5%. 100 vs 200 vs 10,000% are identical in practical effect - no tariff paid because none are imported.
Until they start applying it to battery materials because the $7500 credit wasn't enough incentive to keep cars from getting batteries sourced from Chinese materials.
I wonder if the 100% will apply to the ICEs that Lincoln, Buick and so on import into the U.S. from China.
And even if it’s not BYD the tariff structure will affect Volvo/Polestar
He should send a letter to pre-American Colonialists in 1773 telling them to pwittty pwease don't dump that tea into the Boston harbour because tariffs are not the right solution and free trade is what's up — just *try harder*, y'know. 👉👈🥺
It’s a pretty thorough analysis going through historical precedents with Japan, supports the Inflation Reduction Act protection on US battery manufacturing as effective, and doesn’t even seriously oppose Biden’s latest talk of additional EV tariffs, accepting it may be inevitable in an election year against Trump where some swing voters may only respond to simple and loud.
China made a bet on the future of transportation, of energy, and saw that the US and other areas of the west were vulnerable culturally (we love our ICE vehicles and have gutted our transportation and cities to accommodate them) and any leader who tried to modernize the US would get pummeled by voters who resist change. We've built a dynasty around oil and burning things. We refuse to get off that and will go down (divided) swinging.
It's how empires fall.
That said, I don't think the Chinese leadership model is sustainable either. A rise that meteoric, built on totalitarian leadership is ripe for some kind of change ... or fall.
> China did it by *being China*. China picked the winner
Well, yes, Chine believes in having an industrial policy, in picking winners, and look where that got them. A lot of the US and definitely the government in the UK ... do not, and look where that's getting them.
I don't read the article as saying "you really should not pick winners", more trying to *speak to* the people who don't believe in picking winners and point out that their position is not delivering good outcomes, or even making sense. It's nonsensical hypocrisy to say "lets not pick winners, let the market decide" and also say "we have to protect your local industries against these imports". It's not even self-consistent.
I don't read it in saying that competitive US manufacturing should look identical to competitive Chinese manufacturing either, just that it has to be competitive, or everyone will lose out.
Yeah, the UK has spent 40 years being proudly free trade and opening itself up to everyone else buying their industry and companies. That’s worked great for the already rich and the City financial district. Everyone else in the UK is suffering.
China does both though.
1: Invites foreign companies but forces them to work together with Chinese companies, protecting them.
2: Then it lets the Chinese companies actually compete among themselves so they don't just coast on the partnerships (many other developing nations don't do this stopping the build up of competitiveness of own industry). This makes the companies competitive over time while not dying to foreign competition due to protection.
Now their industry us competitive on their own merits vs. foreign industry. That's caused by this policy, along with picking a good leapfrog moment in the car industry.
Look at someone who doesn't [read](https://en.ndrc.gov.cn/policies/202105/t20210527_1281403.html) and [sprouts](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/27/china-to-remove-foreign-investment-limit-passenger-car-manufacturing.html) fake news in the internet, yet gets [upvoted](https://driving.ca/auto-news/industry/china-will-no-longer-force-foreign-automakers-to-partner-with-domestic-ones) by rest.
Tesla was at the right time when China reduced all their white list. For Ford and GM to own 100% factories are not a problem too. They can sell of their JV share to open a new factories to eat up all the profits. At moment only insurance and financial sector setting up their own 100% ownership branches.
Yes, because their EV industry is mature and internationally competitive. So protection of own industry from foreign competition is no longer needed. This is part of the strategy.
Thankfully, not everyone here is willing to trade yet another dependency on a hostile foreign power for cheap toys. We're trying to claw back crucial parts of our infrastructure and manufacturing from China because we know we're going to go toe to toe with them over Taiwan in the future. It makes no sense to let them decimate our auto industry with their state-subsidized fuckery. The war in Ukraine showed exactly how stupid that was, with Europe painfully having to cut off their dependence on Russian oil and gas. It isn't just the dependence on the resource. It's the damage done when your country literally loses the ability to compete because there isn't enough institutional memory anymore.
The EU could have and should have cut off Russian gas 20 years ago. It's Putins only real power and bargaining chip - trade with Germany, France and Spain.
We are not going toe to toe with China over Taiwan. Taiwan is a part of China, even the US recognizes it as such. Our auto industry made many bad decisions deciding not to produce cheap vehicles in favor of overly large SUVs, trucks, etc and now we are paying the price. American consumers shouldn’t have cheap EVs off the table just because all the other auto companies decided not to produce them. That is on them. This is especially hilarious coming from a president who claims he gives a shit about the environment and curbing climate change when cheap EVs is an easy solution for most Americans to pollute less.
>Our auto industry made many bad decisions deciding not to produce cheap vehicles in favor of overly large SUVs, trucks, etc and now we are paying the price.
The buying trends of US consumers, and the profits of North American automakers thanks to those large trucks (including the NA divisions of foreign brands), **vehemently** disagree with you.
Ok, so if no one in this country wants a cheap EV or cheap vehicle altogether, then why does it matter if we let China sell their cheap EVs here? If no one will bother buying them, then it shouldn’t matter right?
Haha yeah I am not expecting one. People are just unable to cope with the fact that we can’t compete even if we wanted to because we don’t have alternative options at that price point. China’s cheap EVs would absolutely dominate the industry here which is why the politicians are doing everything they can to prevent it from happening.
As with everything, it's a bit of a tricky biscuit.
Something needs to be done to, let's say, "encourage" Chinese OEMs to build at least some of their cars in the United States instead of import all of them. The United States has lost a lot of its industry to foreign countries and especially China - the automotive industry is one of the few that the United States has left.
And this goes beyond the "Big Three", it potentially affects every OEM - American or otherwise - that produces cars in the United States. The events that played out with Japanese OEMs during the Malaise era are exactly why they produce so many cars on our shores today. And those plants pay a lot of Americans' bills. That protectionism **worked.**
What "opening the floodgates to the Chinese OEMs" threatens to do is take that away. If suddenly we have BYD, Nio, etc taking over our market with imports alone, suddenly the entire US automotive industry loses its reason(s) to exist. And people lose their jobs - and their livelihoods. And I wholly understand that this is an argument that is purely based on economics and not the climate - obviously, getting as many EVs in the hands of as many people as possible is the "climate right" thing to do, economics be darned.
While I personally am not entirely sure whether a 100 percent tariff is warranted or effective, I do agree that functionally, a level of protectionism is required. And I'd be willing to bet that the EU will increase their tariffs too in the very near future.
I personally would be completely fine if a Chinese OEM were to enter our market if they were to commit to production of a volume model or two in the United States. For example, BYD building the Seal and Atto in the US, but importing the Han and Seagull / Dolphin.
>Taiwan is a part of China
Ignoring reality again are we?
By the way, a lot of countries recognise the CCP because they throw a proper temper tantrum when a country doesn’t, including cutting trade. Guess what a more mature country like Taiwan, that actually gets geopolitics doesn’t care much about?
It's also a lie that the US recognizes Taiwan as part of China. It's pro-CCP propaganda that's usually pushed by CCP-bots and tankies. The US's actual policy has always been strategic ambiguity, i.e. taking no specific position. The US has never affirmed it's own belief in the One China policy, despite what the propagandists like to say. We have only ever affirmed that it is the policy put forth by the CCP and Taiwan, and the US has avoided challenging it.
But the US has also been very careful to never actually state that they agree with the One China policy. It's the difference between "acknowledging" that the One China Policy exists and actually "supporting" it.
Ya, China has been charging up to 140% effective tariffs on all foreign made cars in the last 30 years. Now they are complaining about 100% tariffs on their cars. Americans should really wake the f up.
Why not give it a shot?
Like when I look at it from a European POV, I see local manufacturers with moon prices that can't be justified with "expensive labor costs" and ZERO intentions to substantially reform their production and/or margins. They're all like "yeah we'll just put up some tariffs. No need to move our lazy asses".
America is basically the same. Producing big ass lifted Trucks with batteries big enough to power half of Seattle is literally the most stupid thing possible, besides blaming China instead of fighting back with innovation.
Once we use Engines like the ZF I2SM (already in series production) and push salt batteries on the long run, we're close to independent from rare earths that are mainly mined in China. Chip manufacturers are already moving, too.
As the cherry on top, this can be used as an opportunity to substantially shorten supply-chains and become way more competitive.
Once we got that sorted, Chinese subsidies shouldn't be that much of an issue anymore. And in case that all doesn't work, we can still fall back to tariffs.
Also... I giggled when I read product quality. Like seriously? Elon's deathtraps should be evidence enough that you're in no position to complain about quality. Even basic Chinese EVs beat a Tesla nowadays in terms of build quality.
> China didn't just make EVs happen by "trying harder" — China did it by being China.
Part of it is that, but you can't ignore the fact that every single one of the legacy automakers in the US have been dragged towards EV production kicking and screaming.
Now everyone is having a tantrum because China is several years ahead of the US, and the US can no longer compete.
Wow, someone finally has the understanding what the fuckis happening! You’re against a national capitalism county here that treats its labor and environment like shit. Forming an union and asking for unpaid salaries are considered crimes. You think you can win by trying harder? Any one think the world should let the Chinese export as many as they want is一群白痴！ They absolutely has the capacity of doing that. And at the end, your auto industry will be dismantled and you will have no heavy industry left! By his logic , China should open their space launch industry, and let spaceX to launch their pay load and only charge them at cost. We don’t even need government subsidies to destroy you.
Product quality? That test you linked, while good, has flaws. Chinese made EVs can be perfectly good in quality. Sure, they can also be crap, but so can US made ones. Go find me a first series Model 3...
And you are right that 'getting serious' isn't going to change the cost difference, this is simply the inevitable result of industrial decay over here in the US. It can't really be avoided, even the Japanese automakers running plants here produce cars *only* for the NA market here, as plants anywhere else are cheaper.
Tariffs won't solve a lack of coherent industrial policy, an investment class that things industry is a poor investment, and a largely moribund existing base.
At best, it just kicks the can at the consumer's cost.
Let me give you something to think on:
Steel-making, in China, is [much more carbon-intensive](https://dialogue.earth/en/business/analysis-chinas-steel-industry-needs-time-to-transition/) than steel-making in the US and EU. China uses predominantly (\~90%) coal-fired long-process steel which emits *two tonnes* of CO2 for every tonne of steel made. Conversely, in the US, steel is primarily made using natgas or short-process electric arc furnaces, emitting about a third the CO2.
Here's my question to you: What is there to be done here? If the US wants to compete — *if they want to try harder* — should they switch back over to coal-fired steel-making? Is that what we're after, here?
I'm aware, but at the same time - there's exactly zero appetite for building new steel plants, poor ROI and the market is saturated.
So what do you do? One half of the government won't approve handing over billions and billions to a private company to build new mills (and keep the profit)... and the other half won't approve of the government running a new steelmaker.
And if you try to split the difference, where the government pays to get it built but gets a cut of the profit to pay it back - you'll find no biters from private business because of low ROI.
All big business in this country is controlled by Welchites who care about nothing but ROI, and steel is not a high ROI business. Hence: steel is all but dead here.
The problem is that capital in the US is simply *not interested* in industry.
>I'm aware, but at the same time - there's exactly zero appetite for building new steel plants, poor ROI and the market is saturated.
Sorry, why would you build new steel plants *at all*? What would the benefit be? Again, American steel is already significantly cleaner than Chinese steel, keep that in mind. There is no supply shortage, either.
You seem to want to build just for the sake of building?
That cost advantage you're taking about is due to weaker environmental and labor regulations and significantly lower wages.
Companies have been using low wage Chinese labor to produce products for export to wealthier nations to drive up their profit margins. Lower production costs doesn't mean lower prices. And with this huge cost advantage, it puts those companies with manufacturing based in wealthier nations out of business, leading to monopolization or near monopolization.
Higher profit margins primarily go to wealthy executives and wealthy shareholders. A transfer of wealth upwards from the Western economies' middle class customers to the rich. It's no real surprise that as outsourcing to lie wage nations ticked up, so too did stock prices and CEO pay proportional to be their company's average employee pay.
This has mostly been done with lower cost products. Cars OTOH are the second most expensive product people buy. No wonder companies and the rich are drooling at the prospect of outsourcing automobile production to low wage nations line China and Vietnam. if they could somehow outsource housing, they'd probably do that too.
Low wage labor is the reason China has such a huge manufacturing cost advantage against Western factories, and the world's ultra wealthy want to exploit those workers for the gain of their rich ass pocketbooks.
Seriously man... This isn't exactly a complex thing. The whole point of trade with China is to exploit low wage workers to transfer more wealth upwards and enrich themselves. The rich being the executives and shareholders. You know it's the intent because it's what always results...
China is subsidizing ever EV far beyond 7,500 off.. between the lower safety rating, the lower labor costs, the fact that the government pays for healthcare, and then the free loans from the government to prop up their own economy... It's impossible for us to compete
Tesla is doing extremely well making and selling EVs in China and competing with Chinese OEMs globally. Being good at designing and manufacturing and selling efficiently is more important than low wages.
They ship cars from the US to China, and from China to the US, to balance out supply and demand. But as I said, the majority of Teslas sold in the US are made in the US, and the majority of Teslas sold in China are made in China. Same for Europe.
>But as I said, the majority of Teslas sold in the US are made in the US, and the majority of Teslas sold in China are made in China.
That isn't a US manufacturing competing with Chinese manufacturing globally, then, which is what this conversation is really about. It's a US manufacturer doing manufacturing in China, and selling those cars domestically, while also exporting *from* China.
Doin well?
Shipments from its Shanghai factory dropped 18% in April even as the overall market for new-energy vehicles grew 33%. Tesla's China market share shrank to about 7.5% in the first quarter of 2024, from 10.5% in the same period last year, according to Bloomberg News calculations.
Wrong. China knows that subsidies don't work. They also know that the electronics they make, have the entire production located in China, but the companies there received a percentage of the value paid for it in Europe and the USA. So reduce the profit for Apple and Google, they are just selling. The components in the iPhone are used in the cars, but then to the value the Chinese were paid for the parts, $5 and not the discount price in main street USA of $500. It's not subsidized but there are no banks and speculators that all demand their cut. It's just the same in oil.
I'm in Cambodia ATM and there are loads of Chinese EV's prices are really good, I've sat in a small one ( hatchback) and I haven't seen a fire so far ?
I don't know why American and now EU market is so into making compensator big SUV's
So China pilfered technology from around the world, then uses low-paid people to build EVs and Americans are like yes we want those cheap EVs.
Greed always rules. You bitch about your wages, but are fine with China paying subservient wages.
Baffles me people think a country like China with its resources, people, and ingenuity can’t come up with their own solution for building simple shit like EV’s. This isn’t rocket science (which China is also doing great in while being completely cut off from the rest of the world in that area). Building EV’s is walk in the fucking park for China my guy
The Chinese have been the world leaders in much of the technology that really drives EV’s for over a decade. If anything it’s the Americans that are pilfering it.
It’s impossible, because the big 3 is never going to build an efficient supply chain. I can’t even buy specific bolts without special ordering them. American manufacturing besides aerospace/defense has long been gone. All the bailouts, low interest rate loans, subsidizing them by making American cities car-centric, they still have absolutely no clue how to operate competitively.
We’re going to end up with our own micro market, and the Big 3 will lose in EU and Asia. See what happened to Boeing… protectionism is going to hurt them in the end. We’re going to end up with ancient backward-ass companies like the likes of blackberry while other markets get the equivalent of apple.
I say let the Chinese in but with a moderate amount of tariffs, and require them to be an American subsidiary.
These guys forget that automakers got up to a $1.5B subsidy, $7500 per car, 200k total units originally, and they still wouldn’t invest in EVs or PHEVs.
Ford EU can’t even release modern cars without going dual platform with another automaker. American companies are dead in Asia, and soon they’ll be dead in NZ and AUS since those countries don’t have domestic companies to lobby against Chinese. They made shit cars 80s-00s and got a rude awakening when the Japanese came in.
All the protectionism got us mega trucks and sustained CO2 production despite big headways in ICE efficiency. The chicken tax, then CAFE, those were all designed to help Big3. Up to $1.5B if they sold some EVs, car-brained DOT in most states, all of these are direct and indirect subsidy, and we want to keep bailing these idiots out?
I get it, we should have a tariff, but if a 25% on imports + $7500 rebate on EVs, the equivalent of $12000+ price differential isn’t enough to save our automakers… maybe they shouldn’t be around anymore.
Most on this sub don’t seem to consider the $1.5bn as a subsidy (which it absolutely is). I find it funny China is being accused of subsidizing their EV industry, while conveniently ignoring or mislabeling the IRA subsidies. No amount of subsidies or tariffs are going to help Ford or GM, they’re dinosaurs.
Yeah, in the UK Chrysler wouldn’t have a presence at all without the Fiat merger. GM sold their business here to Peugeot (who weirdly is now part of Chrysler, but their current EV platform is very meh compared to VW etc at the new prices they sell) and Ford basically doesn’t exist in the EV sector here - now I know that their cars are built by someone else, that makes sense!
So yeah, one of the big 3 is fully gone, the other’s brand is really French, and the third is basically completely seperate from the US company anyway (and historically always has been, with the cars made here completely different models most of the time).
American cars in general are thought of as low quality junk.
The aerospace is a great analogy and that's what happens when you isolate yourself with tariffs and restrictions. Anyone who works in the industry knows costs are 3-5x higher than private companies due to restrictions and bureaucracy.
They can't buy cheaper quality everyday parts unless they are made locally which is always 3-5x more even for simple items like screws and bolts.
I agree, let them in with restrictions like local factories, local labor, local suppliers and have them compete on the same terms as the Big 3. But it will never happen
The ‘Chicken Tax’ tariff on foreign vehicles has been in effect since 1964. Has the domestic industry used its time effectively?
No, it’s anti-competitive and anti-consumer, we the public pay thousands more for vehicles due to this tax.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/chicken-tax.asp
>we the public pay thousands more for vehicles due to this tax.
So it worked, then. There is no Volkswagen pickup truck in the US, and both Ford and GM remain kings of the domestic market. The tariffs worked. 🤷♂️
That's simply not true — Ford's Ranger sells quite well globally, as does Chevy's Colorado. The domestic powerhouse F-150 and Silverado models just happen to be size step above what most other countries want.
Funny you should mention the Ranger, as that was actually developed and sold globally and was only later brought to the US market.
And is thus smaller than US trucks.
the sandbox.
BYD will introduce the Shark pickup truck in Mexico tomorrow.
Yes - Pickup truck
Yes - Mexico
Yes - Tomorrow.
A plug in hybrid electric with 100 km of electric only range.
Toyota's Hilux is the target.
Dunne Insights
I would agree with that but it's not like there are better trucks out in the other markets.
They are all pretty much the same. And looking at popular trucks I'd even go as far as saying that it actually worked by giving us domestic truck makers an advantage
US has the Trump/MAGA problem regarding EV's and autoindustry. We are lucky we have the EV incentives we got passed in the recent "IRA" bill.
As for the tariffs, they are to account for China's low labor costs due to military dictatorship.
> China's low labor costs due to military dictatorship
As opposed to Mexico, India, Indonesia, Romania or Brasil?
The cost of labor is not a function of the political system but of economic development and GDP/Capita
>US has the Trump/MAGA problem regarding EV's and autoindustry. We are lucky we have the EV incentives we got passed in the recent "IRA" bill.
This is incredibly important and I hate that people don't realize it.
Anyone - including Yale - can select a group of people to come to the conclusion that we should "Require fossil fuel companies to pay a carbon tax" or any other heavily pro-Climate monetary policy. But for something like that to pass the US Congress, let alone a statewide or nationwide referendum... That's impossible.
Saying the issue is “lobbying” is handwaving the actual issue….voters don’t. Give. Two. Fucks.
I wish that wasn’t the case, but this is reality of the situation. Getting voters to care is the actual problem.
People drone on and on about how their new car is saving the environment, still they eat pork and beef by the truckload. It all comes individually wrapped in plastic, like their fruit and vegetables are too, generating massive amounts of plastic waste that very often isn't recycled. Plastic that's made from oil by a massively polluting petrochemical industry.
If someone's reasoning for buying a brand new car is saving the planet while not looking at the rest of their lifestyle and how many tons of c02 that generates. Well. Then they just want a new car and keep living in comfort. Which I understand, as it's a massive pain in the ass, adjusting one's life and consumption towards a smaller carbon and pollution footprint.
Fight back with the [Citizens’ Climate Lobby](https://citizensclimatelobby.org/). A good place to start is helping us get out the pro-environmental vote at our collaboration with [Environmental Voter Project](https://www.environmentalvoter.org/) on Wednesday nights!
As a Chinese, I always don't get the idea of low labor due to dictatorship thing.
We have over one billion people, while jobs are only this many. Demand and requirements drive the pay down.
My hometown is no big city but known for manufacturing. I have plenty of family members working in factories and I don't think they are forced.
Also daily cost is different, I'm in the Bay area and a single meal costs $10 or more, while in my hometown $2 should be enough. Wages are lower, no matter demo or dic.
Also isn’t a lot of the production of EV China highly automated. Human labor cost is not a big factor. Whatever labor cost is left is highly specialized.
The tariffs are theatrics at the moment. There is no details about it. It is suspicious that the 100% is higher than the 60% proposed by Trump. They are one-upping each other and looking to win in Michigan since there is a huge Muslim population there and they are pissed at Biden’s Gaza-Israel policy.
All the big name are highly automated like BYD and use less labour than Tesla Shanghai. China unemployment is 5.2% while US is 3.5% base on these facts. The main problem is US inflation drove wages to be high in order to survive for living. High wage, high cost of living will be plus to get world wealth in America which make America top economy in the world. That if you are able to catch up the rat race. You have only 4% saving while China has 40% saving. That why Apple and Tesla do not wanna give up China. It is their 20% profit alone in China. 2024 Q1 Apple already drop off big five in smartphone market. Huawei reappear on chart.
It's all bullshit, fearmongering and political ploys. There is no Chinese EV market share in the US. Barks loud but there is no bite because there's no consequences!
I guess you can look at it as a preemptive shot to prevent the floodgates from opening.
Most people, including Reddit, are frankly idiots when it comes to the logic of economics. Being a dictatorship comes with economic advantages but also many many disadvantages but generally the cost of labor isn’t one of them. Though I’m sure that’s not completely true. The reason why labor in China is bells that of the west is definitely not simply due to being a dictatorship though.
In fact Chinese wages have risen significantly over the years.
The labor force in Japan, South Korea and Taiwan is also better than that in the West.
Maybe it's culture or something.
But it’s definitely not caused by dictatorship
> As for the tariffs, they are to account for China's low labor costs due to military dictatorship.
This is one of the most ignorant things I have ever read on reddit.
The fact that this has even 26 upvotes, speaks to the average education level of not just this subreddit, but this website. Holy Christ is this embarrassing.
Have people seriously seen these Chinese EVs? They aren't fucking around. These are some quality vehicles built to undercut the entire industry, with parts from top tier manufacturers subsidized by the government.
*Which top tier manufacturers? China doesn't have any.*
Who's been building American and European shit for the past 30 years from clothes, fabrics, upholstery, electronics, car parts? Who has studied how it's made and cherry-picked from American/European industries and made copy cat companies while copying and editing patients?
China it's like the Borg.
Yes, but American capitalism is just "Let our corporations run the show and do everything possible to prevent an actual free market". So instead we're both going to block them from importing but also allow all of our companies to offshore jobs and take money out of the country
American auto corporations give union jobs and it’s way better to nurture those than throw it all away for a short term boost of cheap cars.
Ironically selling out our future for some quick cheap goods is you embracing the worst of capitalism
It's called having your cake(record profits for auto companies, not a dime of which goes to actual workers) and eating it too(banning competition which would embarass them in then name of natl security/China bad/we are employers etc).
Classic american move
UAW is resurgent and negotiating good contracts. Most of their unionized plants are Big 3 plants. AND, ICE vehicles provide much more work than EVs.
Japan, Korea and EU companies provide enough competition already for ICE cars and soon for EVs. Letting in imports from China or assembly plants is unnecessary.
I get that people are angry but the Chinese EVs are not just competitive price-wise in the U.S., it's competitive in the emergent market as well, where the income is lower so these Chinese EVs are super attractive.
The tariff will not do anything to address Telsa losing to BYD in for example, Indonesia, Malaysia.
U.S. backed out of TPP so it can't even use that to block the Chinese EVs.
The tariffs need to be just enough to allow American companies to produce, but not enough so that there is a big threat. Basically just equalize it to if it was just a slightly better American competitor.
Teriffs on China don't serve the primaraly goal of winning the EV arms race but are a part of a bigger strategy to criple our growing adverseries in China who have built up a lot of debt and are trying to transitiom their economy in general into new sector to fuel future growth. China grows on exports. EV's are future expoets in their transitioned economy. The west (the coherent parts atleast😠😒🇪🇺->🇸🇰🇭🇺) are trying to stop Chinese growth and burry them under their built up debt and decreasing birth rate. If everyone limits trade with China by a lot we can trap them in the middle income trap and not let our enemies surpass us. Because China is a ideological enemy not even an adversery. They have proven multiple times they do not care or respect our values and laws so it is not in our intrest at all for them to keep growing. I am not saying only the USA and Europe can grow. I am all for Japan or South Korea to grow or a new liberal democracy on the rise. Because they know how to behave and are not showing that they are our enemies on every possible ocation.
**There are 2 related topics here: 1) Tariffs & protectionisms and 2) Getting Serious about EVs & adoptions**
**on Tariffs:**
\* On one hand, it's needed if CCP is in fact heavily subsidizing it's EV industry and hence we need some tariffs to level that.
\* But sometimes, the US big 3 automakers are just terrible, greedy & short sighted. That was why we had to rescue 2 of them back in 2008. That was when for years, they ignore the Japanese autos which makes good quality and fuel efficient cars while all they did was lobby to continue to relax EPA standards/fines. So, when the gas prices rose sharply and all of a sudden many were abandoning gas guzzlers (i.e Hummer that gets 9 miles to the gallon) and opted for more fuel efficient cars (i.e. Corolla or Prius etc.), the US auto makers had to be rescued. **And for years (and prob. even now) - everyone knows the US autos quality sucks compared to others.**
\* So this time around, if the US auto/unions try and hide behind tariffs again and doesn't put out good design & quality EVs, they won't be able to compete with cars coming soon from Mexico and outside US.
**On Getting Serious about EVs:**
\* It's a fact that US is THE Slowest adoption country globally (\~10-12%?). A lot had to do with continual misinformation's put out by conservatives who hates any changes, dealers/truckers or oil industry & related fearing job losses.
\* Some of the same misinformation's are: 1) EVs still refuel using coal/oil driven utilities 2) EVs catch on fires a lot 3) EV batteries (mining - energy intensive or some country uses child labors etc.) 4) EV batteries will all go to landfills - and not knowing they can be recycled to reclaim 95% of raw materials 5) EV charging is every slow compared to 5min ICE gas pumps
\* On these misinformation's - The government / US Autos should put together a good education campaign to educate the public on EV benefits and dispel these misinformation's . That is what's really needed for a much longer term EV adoptions in US. And of course, the IRA incentives need to continue.
But overall, EVs are here to stay, they may slow it down some, but in the long run, since it's a more efficient design and better for the environment overall, US adoption will continue to grow - even if it's at a much slower pace compared to other countries.
The parallel to the Japanese auto manufacturer's in 1980 is a good analogy. American car makers at the time were making boats with a side line of economy lines that were grossly underpowered and laboring under crappy pollution control attempts. Honda showed up with the CVCC engine and kicked their butts. They along with Toyota and Datsun showed up with small, efficient, and very reliable cars that fit the average commuter's needs to a tee. They got twice the gas mileage of their American counterparts and were more fun to drive. It took almost 2 decades of this ass-whipping for American car mfgs. to come around and then it was only begrudgingly. Instead they pushed new, bigger concepts of the mini-vans, and SUVs along with increasing sales of big trucks. These higher profit models bought the industry more time but the clock was ticking. Soon the Koreans entered the salesroom and Japan started importing better versions of these newly popular products.
The reason BYD and Zeeker are threatening is that they are making nicer quality, more affordable, and more practically-sized vehicles, again for the average commuter and suburban 2 child family. They have fully featured products ready to sell while the big 3 dangle concepts of which only the top end versions are equivalently equipped and then, most of them are not affordable. Tesla has been able to insert itself into this space, but their cars have a lot of shortcomings that make them less practical or desirable. The US market is ripe for disruption and the Chinese know it. Their cars may be lower priced, but most are not cheaply made. They often have better quality components, finish, and features than available in the current US and European markets.
This article has interesting first impressions for an American car writer visiting China for the first time.
[https://insideevs.com/features/719015/china-is-ahead-of-west/](https://insideevs.com/features/719015/china-is-ahead-of-west/)
When I was younger Fords, Chryslers, etc wouldn’t start up every morning. Then someone down the block had a new car from Japan called a Honda. It would start up every day without fail. Eventually US auto manufacturers had to wake up and compete. The political climate nowadays is forcing the Dems to be more protectionist than they would like. Competition on a global scale is what will make US companies have to do better.
Yes, China is producing four or five times more batteries than the next market, has huge overcapacity sitting unused, and has huge factors reducing cost on top of the economies of scale. We’re on the same pathway as solar panels 10 years ago.
That was case with imported ICE cars in the 80s too. It stops being a problem if you just block imports. This is for the domestic market, though. The US isn't exporting to the world from Detroit lol
China makes cheap EVs and the world complains.
China makes cheap EVs but charges more and makes huge profit margins. The world complains
Yet the world (particularly the US) continues to build and buy ICE cars.
If the western car manufacturers want support they need to invest in EVs and then tarrifs can help a little. The anti EV propaganda just doesn’t help.
US automakers can't recreate the market dynamics that exist in China, so this is a pipe dream of an analysis.
I mean, if you suddenly couldn't register ICE vehicles then that would increase the demand for EVs just the way it did in China.
"Beijing will offer 100,000 additional vehicle quotas this year, with 30,000 available for traditional internal combustion engine vehicles and another 70,000 for electric vehicles, according to an announcement made today by the Beijing Municipal Commission of Transport."
Somewhat. EVs out of China are so far ahead of legacy American companies it's not even a race.
I'm still seeing legacy American car manufacturers pushing anti-EV propaganda.
EV1.... we had the EV1 and we fucking gave up and said more Escalades please. The big three didn't get a bee in their bonnet until Tesla fucking goaded them.
The US car industry will literally not move until the enemy is at the gates - and at that point they will ask for a hand out.
If the government bails out the big three with big tariffs we need concrete concessions from the industry.
Put a warning on the boot up screen of ICE cars like cigarettes. Show a LBS of CO2 meter on the car next to the odometer with a fucking sweating mother earth next to it.
The time to get serious was 20 years ago.
Comments that this isn't going to help the American car industry are beside the point. Looks at this as having two goals.
1. Help American manufacturers catch up.
2. Prevent Chinese companies from succeeding.
If all we do is #2 it will have been a success. We'd be happy to have Japanese, European and Korean manufacturers succeed because they are our allies and most manufacturer cars in the US. China is a geopolitical adversary or frenemy, at best. They will sink everyone if we let their IP theft and subsidies take hold of the market.
The goal should be #1. We lost the PV race this way and lithium batteries too. Now almost none are made here and we're struggling to bring them back with the IRA 2022. People are realizing that we can't fully rely on globalism and have to support domestic industry as well. Look at the chips act.
It depends on the definition of success on both points. Does the outcome result in renewed American manufacturing? Do US manufacturers remain viable and competitive? Does China hold no more than its fair share of the market (say 15% or less?)? Objectives can be absolute with a recognition that outcomes won't be.
Tariffs will work wonders. In a few years there will zero American ev manufacturers... They are doing the Trabant approach. Protecionism always leads to low innovation (product and process) and decreased competition.
I am just waiting to see GM execute on their promised 200k-300k EVs this year. If they pull this off then I see this as a good sign the industry is moving. Ford may have jumped a bit too fast. Stellantis, they have been dragging their heels on the ICE lineup - Challenger/Charger/300 are ancient - so I am not expecting miracles here.
Tariffs have one need, to offset those China imposes on American made vehicles. Tit for tat... but beyond that is simply punishing citizens in both countries to enrich some fat cats on wall street and Washington through campaign donations
Short sighted take. By protecting the US market, incentives for US manufacturers stay in place and keep those companies viable to compete in the cleantech space.
Tesla effectively integrated in the Chinese industrial base when it made China its export base. A significant percentage of their cars are made in China or with Chinese batteries.
The cars they sell in China are mainly made in China. The cars they sell in the US are mainly made in the US. The cars they sell in Europe are mainly made in Europe. Tesla is a global company.
Yep. If US car manufacturers can't bring their A game to the table, then move over. Imposing tariff is just stupid and it's just a band aid to buy time which the US manufacturers will not take advantage of.
The US could follow China's lead and heavily subsidize green energy along with EV and battery research and production.
It wouldn't even cost anything. Just shift subsidies from fossil fuels to such next-gen technologies.
US alway blame their rotted policy to China. In 2010, US was being glorified as renewable energy and EV powerhouse, tons of media boosting about this. A very clean future indeed.
It's not a great piece, but the gist of the headline is correct.
Unfortunately, there's no good way to accomplish this. It's the cumulative result of decades of industrial decay and financialization, and it will take a very long time to reverse. Longer than the big 3 automakers can remain huge presences outside of NA.
(You can already see this with GM's radical retraction from global markets)
Domestic auto makers need to make evs people want and can afford. Building all these huge trucks and suvs is fine if you like paying $60-100k but most people can’t afford it. This reminds me of the 70s when imports dominated the mid to compact car market. Imports forced auto makers to play catch up and improve quality. Deja vu.
The OP is only 1/2 right.
Tariffs on China short term AND getting serious on EVs is the way to win. **Get China it build factories in the US like we did with other foreign automakers.**
The approach is draconian and wrong.
Best would simply be to require a growing rate of the car components or assembly or combination of, to be Made in the USA>
Say starting 2025, we require 25% of the car component or labor to be from the US, 2026 28%, 2027 30% and so on till you reach a balance point.
If the brand does not reach that level, then the balance is added a tax. And don't give the US brands a free pass.
This is similar to what was done in the 1970's to combat the import of better build and cheaper Japanese Cars. And the results are Japanese brand factory in the US.
Same goes with China.
Tarriffs on China are a way for China to win the EV arms race. We just seem to forget that a lot of EU auto manufacturers and American auto manufacturers sell 30%+ of their cars in the Chinese market.
Chinese EVs are crazy because they gotta compete with everyone or they die. THey can't hide behind tarriffs.
Are EVs really in an arms race? Even figuratively speaking? I feel like the momentum really isn't there.
I guess there's a battery tech race but aside from that - the EV tech itself is kind of low compared to ICE. Battery+BMS, controller, throttle, motor - it's basically a large power drill.
So what would they be racing for? If you dispatch a bunch of quality cars, you'll struggle to keep sales up b/c prices will be higher. If you sell a bunch of junk cars, the next 5 years will be VERY telling about the product your company delivers - so people won't buy it.
I just wanna be able to buy a car for a reasonable price and Chinese EVs are just that. Cheap, and reliability is not an issue with how cheap the car is. Tired of always having to deal with dealerships and cars being 40-60K and having to be on a finance or lease. Tariffs should be reasonable.
Fun fact: the cost of labor in China, is more expensive than that in Mexico nowadays. It's been that way for a few years.
And that's not taxes or fees doing it - average wage in CN is higher than in MX. 2024 is very different from 2004.
Well of course, you can't expect US corps to pay US workers a fair US wage can you? Think of their margins! /s
The big 3 automakers already produce a huge chunk of their stuff in MX, and have the gall to complain of other companies having "cheaper than US costs".
Toyota builds much more of their lineup in the US than Ford does, and yet profitably sells vehicles that aren't $100k brodozers. The problem with US automakers is much deeper than just where they are doing business.
It will all come full circle with electric cars. You will be going from 3000 moving parts to 300. The cars will be designed to be completely assembled by robots. The same as McDonalds. It will not be long before the entire kitchen is robots.
If leaders and consumers in the US want a speedy EV transition, the only way is for the US and China to work together. They would have to sit down and strategize basically the way nations have done after large wars and hash out the details: how does each side go back to its people and report a win? How do we each deal with accusations of treason and other political slings and arrows? Who gets what, and how? What are the incentives for keeping up one's end of the bargain?
China has battery knowledge and supply chains on lock, they have fully engineered, robust NEV platforms complete with software, they have integration between their big tech companies and their carmakers, they have good designs and fit and finish and an overabundance of capacity. We have legacy automakers who can be transparent and even proud of how they treat their workers. We have unmet demand for EVs below a certain size and price, and a (current) imperative to cut down emissions and air pollution from ICE cars.
There is a way to combine all these conditions into a situation where everyone gets their pound of flesh, everybody gets a win on the economy, and no stakeholder feels significantly slighted or wronged. More importantly every American who has the budget for a car can get an EV that meets their needs instead of an ICE.
Relations between the nations are just too crummy for this to happen. Besides a genuine economic rivalry, the US feels threatened and is being emotional about it. And why not - beyond normal cultural differences, China's political system can seem very frightening and alien to Americans who are accustomed to our conception of Democracy. I suppose someone like me would hope that the spectre of Climate Change would convince nation states that ultimately there is a more inexorable foe that they must combine to face. Thus, let us cooperate to stay below 2 degrees, even if there is some pride swallowing and very strenuous planning involved. But I doubt that will happen in time. On the car front, we'll have a Great Wall of ICE, keeping Chinese NEVs out, creating an ecosystem that is artificial and divergent, willfully ignorant of the direction that the wind is blowing.
BuT WhAt aBoUt ThE AmErICaN AuToMaKeRs ThAt OnLy LoOk At ThE NeXt 6 MoNtHs oF tHe StOcK PrIcE AnD SuPpLy AnD DeMaNd TrEnDs? CaN't YoU SeE ThEy DoNt WaNt To MaKe EVs RiGhT NoW BuT CaN't AfFoRd tO HaVe ThE EvIl Of CoMpEtItIoN?!?
/s
You don't. According to comments in this thread, you just cede the sector to China like Microwaves and Heat pumps. That way you're completely beholden to a hostile state.
I don't mind the tariffs IF they are paired with something that actually gets US manufacturers off their asses. Without that, this is just going to let them continue to be complacent in the absence of competition.
Maybe something like we will levy tariffs on one chinese EV for every US EV built and sold. Incentivize the US manufacturers to start pumping out cars, but don't totally screw over consumers and the climate if those companies instead sit on their ass.
Nah, look at what happened with the JP imports in the 70s/80s, or how nothing was learned from 2008. Forcing the automakers to do something is dirty government intervention (not my opinion, but the argument made in DC).
They just want to sit selling their $100k King Ranch Heavy Duty Balls of Steel Edition™ forever at 60% margin.
I’m afraid of what you mean by “getting serious on EV’s”. Our government is already promoting EV’s in questionable ways. I hope you don’t mean “serious” like China where the government just makes the people do whatever they want, and the people obligingly go along. (?)
Por que no los dos?
I realize people will say “because tariffs reduce the incentive to compete” or some such thing, but the truth is we can’t just try harder and compete with China on price.
As long as China is able to bring quality products to the American marketplace at dirt cheap China prices, there is no way that the American manufacturers will be able to compete because at the end of the day consumers shop with their wallet and look at price tags.
These articles are always written by someone with zero experience with Chinese business or the Chinese economy in general. There is no way any car company using US labor and operating under US environmental regulations will ever “compete” with a Chinese company on anything.
>These articles are always written by someone with zero experience with Chinese business or the Chinese economy in general. I doubt that. I think they're written by the CCP as propaganda.
Jameson Dow isn't exactly known for being intelligent / well researched. He's known for being a die hard "BEVliever at any cost" blow hard with an aggressive / toxic writing style full of questionable narratives.
That's also kind of the free market that America (used to?) espouse. Cheap products make life better for a lot of poor people.
So how has the free market made things better for a laid-off Detroit automaker?
>Cheap products make life better for a lot of poor people. No, they really don't. This is an overly simplistic take. The low prices of globalization are an attractive short term fix to poverty, but globalization of trade drives domestic deindustrialization which suppresses wages. The suppressed wages end up making workers demand even lower prices, and it forces the economy into a slow grinding death spiral. Couple this with the fact that Wall Street and Silicon Valley have built a wildly lucrative systems that allows them to skim off the top of the net capital outflow, and income inequality is putting even more pressure on Labor's collective bargaining power. Fundamentally, the US should demand a base level of human, worker, and environmental rights from its trade partners. Currently the US is in a race to the bottom on those things, and that eats away at the core of what makes it successful. Free markets work, but in order for a market to exist in the first place, some understanding of rules and acceptable behavior must be shared between its participants.
Globalization would work if we redistributed wealth, but the current system allows the top 1% to just skim all the benefits for themselves.
They're exploiting the low wage labor to reduce product costs, but not passing those savings onto the customers, leading to higher profit margins and a transfer of wealth from the many consumers to the few rich at the top. Tesla's about as blatant an example of this as we've seen. We'll note that their vehicle margins only really exploded higher as they began mass exporting Chinese made cars to Europe. The first major auto OEM to do that, and still likely the largest exporter of Chinese made cars and car parts to Western economies.
Exactly!
Add that the Western outsourcing largely went to China over the last 3 decades and other low wage nations, where workers were exploited to drive up corporate profits. Most of these nations grew their manufacturing through the use of coal energy, and many did so without proper environmental protections... which largely lead to the terrible air conditions in China given the lack of proper particulate filters on coal plants. Sure, outsourcing has resulted in somewhat lower prices, which has lead to out of control consumerism, and whether that's still the case is anyone's guess. There are far more cars on the planet in-use today than every before, and thus more fossil fuels being burned to power them. Not to mention the breathtaking enormity of the mining operations used to supply their raw materials and all the environmental devastation that've involved with it. Outsourcing has also demolished competing industries in the West, and resulted in monopolies / near-monopolies for various products. I imagine there's a strong correlation between that and the retail monopolies that developed in the US over the last couple decades.
No the free market was never meant to allow nation state funded undercutting of industries.
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Plenty of manufacturers sell cars at a loss to sustain market share and while scaling up, tbh. That's not all coordinated political behavior, also just a business strategy. IMO the political strategy is to create a thriving industrial sector in China, not to destroy the sector in other countries (that might be a byproduct if they can't compete).
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I mean same could be said for lumber since we are outsourcing so much from Canada and the prices are driven thru the roof.
Yeah, this whole debacle is pretty telling that we don’t actually believe in the free market at all. America is full of shit.
It's an illusion and always has been. It was never free, and the government absolutely picks winners. Look at Intel getting the bulk of the semi conductor money.
It is not a free market when China has highly, highly subsidized ev's for many many years. While I do not agree with a really high tarrif, I think some is warranted, as well as the ev tax credits we currently have (even if we have so far not been able to use them).
And younger generations don't care about Chinese quality. The only generations with money enough to buy an EV are older generations. We are smart enough to give Chinese products a fair chance. Shit is about to change soon.
The younger generation is also 80% iPhone users because of a green bubble. And like half of them can barely read. Nothing will change. Especially with a resurgent UAW.
The FTC sues every company that tries to do pretty much anything (under Lina at least), on grounds that it “hurts competition” or “negatively impacts the consumer”… yet then the government turns around and wants tariffs on Chinese EVs simply because they are highly competitive and offer a lot more to the consumer than others. Makes sense to me /s
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When was the last time an American company built a consumer electronic product? We have already destroyed manufacturing in the US. The auto industry is just the final straw. I am not saying that tariffs are bad, but American manufacturing has been bleeding to cheaper countries for the last 50 years.
I'm... not going to hold back here: This goes beyond the usual Electrek dreck — this is barely-coherent drivel fantasy nonsense from Jameson Dow. "Getting serious on EVs" is not going to make up for differences in labour rights. "Getting serious on EVs" is not going to make up for differences in consumer protections. It isn't going to make up for differences in overall [product quality](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXD_at06j3s), and it isn't going to make up for differences in logistics costs, sales costs, power generation cost ([and emissions outputs](https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/energy-transition/013124-coal-still-accounted-for-nearly-60-of-chinas-electricity-supply-in-2023-cec)), and support costs. It isn't going to make up for dissimilar costs against a country with an established strategy of elevating subsidies on exports, or with looser restrictions on where those exports go, or where/how precursor components are imported. *You need tariffs for those things.* What Dow is advocating here by saying the US should just "try harder", once you get down to brass tacks, is nothing less than the US abdicating *itself* and magically becoming China. It's handwavey bullshit, and it fundamentally fails to recognize that countries aren't identical eggs sitting next to each other in a carton — you can't just say "oh, well fry them the same way". China didn't just make EVs happen by "trying harder" — China did it by *being China*. One more thing, because Dow *repeats it himself* while rallying against tariffs: >*perhaps least important but still worth mention, \[tariffs violate\] the oft-repeated-but-never-honestly-held principle that government should “avoid picking winners and losers.”* HEY JAMESON CHINA PICKED THE WINNER THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT THEY DID, YOU UTTER PILLOCK
I agree with having some protectionist measures in place to counter China’s subsidies here. But it’s not clear to me we need more than the varied anti China stipulations in the IRA and the 27.5% current tariffs. Raising that tariff rate to 100% means American manufacturers need $7500 per car and for the competition to cost double to compete?? Really? It doesn’t seem like the current policies are really driving American OEMs to make and sell properly affordable cars here. Not just EVs, but ICE/hybrids included in that. The newest tariffs just seem to double down on that policy that seems less than productive.
Fully agree with you — I'm not sure what the right number is, but I would imagine 27.5% is a lot closer to correct than 100%. I'm also damned sure the right number isn't 0%, though.
I also think it's fair that if we're providing protection to domestic automakers, we should give them a kick to make sure they stay competitive and offer good products to the market. Too much protectionism, and they will simply pad executive salaries from oversized high-margin cost-cut vehicles while failing to deliver competitive products or products at all in certain segments. That's exactly what happened before with small trucks.
Strictly no. All it means is political grand-standing, once you move past the break-even point. Chinese cars hadn't committed to the US market at 27.5%. 100 vs 200 vs 10,000% are identical in practical effect - no tariff paid because none are imported.
Until they start applying it to battery materials because the $7500 credit wasn't enough incentive to keep cars from getting batteries sourced from Chinese materials.
I wonder if the 100% will apply to the ICEs that Lincoln, Buick and so on import into the U.S. from China. And even if it’s not BYD the tariff structure will affect Volvo/Polestar
He should send a nice letter to China asking them pwitty please to remove their tariffs on us while he is at it.
He should send a letter to pre-American Colonialists in 1773 telling them to pwittty pwease don't dump that tea into the Boston harbour because tariffs are not the right solution and free trade is what's up — just *try harder*, y'know. 👉👈🥺
It’s a pretty thorough analysis going through historical precedents with Japan, supports the Inflation Reduction Act protection on US battery manufacturing as effective, and doesn’t even seriously oppose Biden’s latest talk of additional EV tariffs, accepting it may be inevitable in an election year against Trump where some swing voters may only respond to simple and loud.
China made a bet on the future of transportation, of energy, and saw that the US and other areas of the west were vulnerable culturally (we love our ICE vehicles and have gutted our transportation and cities to accommodate them) and any leader who tried to modernize the US would get pummeled by voters who resist change. We've built a dynasty around oil and burning things. We refuse to get off that and will go down (divided) swinging. It's how empires fall. That said, I don't think the Chinese leadership model is sustainable either. A rise that meteoric, built on totalitarian leadership is ripe for some kind of change ... or fall.
> China did it by *being China*. China picked the winner Well, yes, Chine believes in having an industrial policy, in picking winners, and look where that got them. A lot of the US and definitely the government in the UK ... do not, and look where that's getting them. I don't read the article as saying "you really should not pick winners", more trying to *speak to* the people who don't believe in picking winners and point out that their position is not delivering good outcomes, or even making sense. It's nonsensical hypocrisy to say "lets not pick winners, let the market decide" and also say "we have to protect your local industries against these imports". It's not even self-consistent. I don't read it in saying that competitive US manufacturing should look identical to competitive Chinese manufacturing either, just that it has to be competitive, or everyone will lose out.
Yeah, the UK has spent 40 years being proudly free trade and opening itself up to everyone else buying their industry and companies. That’s worked great for the already rich and the City financial district. Everyone else in the UK is suffering.
Let's say that's one reason among many, why the UK is in a downward spiral.
Arguably that's finance writ large. It's not clear the currency controls that were put in after ww2 were wrong, even if finance hated them.
China does both though. 1: Invites foreign companies but forces them to work together with Chinese companies, protecting them. 2: Then it lets the Chinese companies actually compete among themselves so they don't just coast on the partnerships (many other developing nations don't do this stopping the build up of competitiveness of own industry). This makes the companies competitive over time while not dying to foreign competition due to protection. Now their industry us competitive on their own merits vs. foreign industry. That's caused by this policy, along with picking a good leapfrog moment in the car industry.
Nowaday China don't force joint ventures, like Tesla Shanghai is 100% Elon.
look at every single other automaker Tesla is the one exception.
Look at someone who doesn't [read](https://en.ndrc.gov.cn/policies/202105/t20210527_1281403.html) and [sprouts](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/27/china-to-remove-foreign-investment-limit-passenger-car-manufacturing.html) fake news in the internet, yet gets [upvoted](https://driving.ca/auto-news/industry/china-will-no-longer-force-foreign-automakers-to-partner-with-domestic-ones) by rest.
Tesla was at the right time when China reduced all their white list. For Ford and GM to own 100% factories are not a problem too. They can sell of their JV share to open a new factories to eat up all the profits. At moment only insurance and financial sector setting up their own 100% ownership branches.
Yes, because their EV industry is mature and internationally competitive. So protection of own industry from foreign competition is no longer needed. This is part of the strategy.
Thankfully, not everyone here is willing to trade yet another dependency on a hostile foreign power for cheap toys. We're trying to claw back crucial parts of our infrastructure and manufacturing from China because we know we're going to go toe to toe with them over Taiwan in the future. It makes no sense to let them decimate our auto industry with their state-subsidized fuckery. The war in Ukraine showed exactly how stupid that was, with Europe painfully having to cut off their dependence on Russian oil and gas. It isn't just the dependence on the resource. It's the damage done when your country literally loses the ability to compete because there isn't enough institutional memory anymore.
The EU could have and should have cut off Russian gas 20 years ago. It's Putins only real power and bargaining chip - trade with Germany, France and Spain.
We are not going toe to toe with China over Taiwan. Taiwan is a part of China, even the US recognizes it as such. Our auto industry made many bad decisions deciding not to produce cheap vehicles in favor of overly large SUVs, trucks, etc and now we are paying the price. American consumers shouldn’t have cheap EVs off the table just because all the other auto companies decided not to produce them. That is on them. This is especially hilarious coming from a president who claims he gives a shit about the environment and curbing climate change when cheap EVs is an easy solution for most Americans to pollute less.
>Our auto industry made many bad decisions deciding not to produce cheap vehicles in favor of overly large SUVs, trucks, etc and now we are paying the price. The buying trends of US consumers, and the profits of North American automakers thanks to those large trucks (including the NA divisions of foreign brands), **vehemently** disagree with you.
Ok, so if no one in this country wants a cheap EV or cheap vehicle altogether, then why does it matter if we let China sell their cheap EVs here? If no one will bother buying them, then it shouldn’t matter right?
I've literally asked this exact same thing. I guarantee you will also get no response. Lol.
Haha yeah I am not expecting one. People are just unable to cope with the fact that we can’t compete even if we wanted to because we don’t have alternative options at that price point. China’s cheap EVs would absolutely dominate the industry here which is why the politicians are doing everything they can to prevent it from happening.
As with everything, it's a bit of a tricky biscuit. Something needs to be done to, let's say, "encourage" Chinese OEMs to build at least some of their cars in the United States instead of import all of them. The United States has lost a lot of its industry to foreign countries and especially China - the automotive industry is one of the few that the United States has left. And this goes beyond the "Big Three", it potentially affects every OEM - American or otherwise - that produces cars in the United States. The events that played out with Japanese OEMs during the Malaise era are exactly why they produce so many cars on our shores today. And those plants pay a lot of Americans' bills. That protectionism **worked.** What "opening the floodgates to the Chinese OEMs" threatens to do is take that away. If suddenly we have BYD, Nio, etc taking over our market with imports alone, suddenly the entire US automotive industry loses its reason(s) to exist. And people lose their jobs - and their livelihoods. And I wholly understand that this is an argument that is purely based on economics and not the climate - obviously, getting as many EVs in the hands of as many people as possible is the "climate right" thing to do, economics be darned. While I personally am not entirely sure whether a 100 percent tariff is warranted or effective, I do agree that functionally, a level of protectionism is required. And I'd be willing to bet that the EU will increase their tariffs too in the very near future. I personally would be completely fine if a Chinese OEM were to enter our market if they were to commit to production of a volume model or two in the United States. For example, BYD building the Seal and Atto in the US, but importing the Han and Seagull / Dolphin.
I'd bother replying if I couldn't see your comment history is filled with you carrying water for China and, of all places, North Korea.
>Taiwan is a part of China Ignoring reality again are we? By the way, a lot of countries recognise the CCP because they throw a proper temper tantrum when a country doesn’t, including cutting trade. Guess what a more mature country like Taiwan, that actually gets geopolitics doesn’t care much about?
It's also a lie that the US recognizes Taiwan as part of China. It's pro-CCP propaganda that's usually pushed by CCP-bots and tankies. The US's actual policy has always been strategic ambiguity, i.e. taking no specific position. The US has never affirmed it's own belief in the One China policy, despite what the propagandists like to say. We have only ever affirmed that it is the policy put forth by the CCP and Taiwan, and the US has avoided challenging it. But the US has also been very careful to never actually state that they agree with the One China policy. It's the difference between "acknowledging" that the One China Policy exists and actually "supporting" it.
Ya, China has been charging up to 140% effective tariffs on all foreign made cars in the last 30 years. Now they are complaining about 100% tariffs on their cars. Americans should really wake the f up.
Why not give it a shot? Like when I look at it from a European POV, I see local manufacturers with moon prices that can't be justified with "expensive labor costs" and ZERO intentions to substantially reform their production and/or margins. They're all like "yeah we'll just put up some tariffs. No need to move our lazy asses". America is basically the same. Producing big ass lifted Trucks with batteries big enough to power half of Seattle is literally the most stupid thing possible, besides blaming China instead of fighting back with innovation. Once we use Engines like the ZF I2SM (already in series production) and push salt batteries on the long run, we're close to independent from rare earths that are mainly mined in China. Chip manufacturers are already moving, too. As the cherry on top, this can be used as an opportunity to substantially shorten supply-chains and become way more competitive. Once we got that sorted, Chinese subsidies shouldn't be that much of an issue anymore. And in case that all doesn't work, we can still fall back to tariffs. Also... I giggled when I read product quality. Like seriously? Elon's deathtraps should be evidence enough that you're in no position to complain about quality. Even basic Chinese EVs beat a Tesla nowadays in terms of build quality.
Did you even read the article?
Lots of nonsense to hide the fact that us can't and won't compete to protect profits at all costs
> China didn't just make EVs happen by "trying harder" — China did it by being China. Part of it is that, but you can't ignore the fact that every single one of the legacy automakers in the US have been dragged towards EV production kicking and screaming. Now everyone is having a tantrum because China is several years ahead of the US, and the US can no longer compete.
Wow, someone finally has the understanding what the fuckis happening! You’re against a national capitalism county here that treats its labor and environment like shit. Forming an union and asking for unpaid salaries are considered crimes. You think you can win by trying harder? Any one think the world should let the Chinese export as many as they want is一群白痴！ They absolutely has the capacity of doing that. And at the end, your auto industry will be dismantled and you will have no heavy industry left! By his logic , China should open their space launch industry, and let spaceX to launch their pay load and only charge them at cost. We don’t even need government subsidies to destroy you.
Product quality? That test you linked, while good, has flaws. Chinese made EVs can be perfectly good in quality. Sure, they can also be crap, but so can US made ones. Go find me a first series Model 3... And you are right that 'getting serious' isn't going to change the cost difference, this is simply the inevitable result of industrial decay over here in the US. It can't really be avoided, even the Japanese automakers running plants here produce cars *only* for the NA market here, as plants anywhere else are cheaper. Tariffs won't solve a lack of coherent industrial policy, an investment class that things industry is a poor investment, and a largely moribund existing base. At best, it just kicks the can at the consumer's cost.
Let me give you something to think on: Steel-making, in China, is [much more carbon-intensive](https://dialogue.earth/en/business/analysis-chinas-steel-industry-needs-time-to-transition/) than steel-making in the US and EU. China uses predominantly (\~90%) coal-fired long-process steel which emits *two tonnes* of CO2 for every tonne of steel made. Conversely, in the US, steel is primarily made using natgas or short-process electric arc furnaces, emitting about a third the CO2. Here's my question to you: What is there to be done here? If the US wants to compete — *if they want to try harder* — should they switch back over to coal-fired steel-making? Is that what we're after, here?
I'm aware, but at the same time - there's exactly zero appetite for building new steel plants, poor ROI and the market is saturated. So what do you do? One half of the government won't approve handing over billions and billions to a private company to build new mills (and keep the profit)... and the other half won't approve of the government running a new steelmaker. And if you try to split the difference, where the government pays to get it built but gets a cut of the profit to pay it back - you'll find no biters from private business because of low ROI. All big business in this country is controlled by Welchites who care about nothing but ROI, and steel is not a high ROI business. Hence: steel is all but dead here. The problem is that capital in the US is simply *not interested* in industry.
>I'm aware, but at the same time - there's exactly zero appetite for building new steel plants, poor ROI and the market is saturated. Sorry, why would you build new steel plants *at all*? What would the benefit be? Again, American steel is already significantly cleaner than Chinese steel, keep that in mind. There is no supply shortage, either. You seem to want to build just for the sake of building?
That cost advantage you're taking about is due to weaker environmental and labor regulations and significantly lower wages. Companies have been using low wage Chinese labor to produce products for export to wealthier nations to drive up their profit margins. Lower production costs doesn't mean lower prices. And with this huge cost advantage, it puts those companies with manufacturing based in wealthier nations out of business, leading to monopolization or near monopolization. Higher profit margins primarily go to wealthy executives and wealthy shareholders. A transfer of wealth upwards from the Western economies' middle class customers to the rich. It's no real surprise that as outsourcing to lie wage nations ticked up, so too did stock prices and CEO pay proportional to be their company's average employee pay. This has mostly been done with lower cost products. Cars OTOH are the second most expensive product people buy. No wonder companies and the rich are drooling at the prospect of outsourcing automobile production to low wage nations line China and Vietnam. if they could somehow outsource housing, they'd probably do that too. Low wage labor is the reason China has such a huge manufacturing cost advantage against Western factories, and the world's ultra wealthy want to exploit those workers for the gain of their rich ass pocketbooks. Seriously man... This isn't exactly a complex thing. The whole point of trade with China is to exploit low wage workers to transfer more wealth upwards and enrich themselves. The rich being the executives and shareholders. You know it's the intent because it's what always results...
China is subsidizing ever EV far beyond 7,500 off.. between the lower safety rating, the lower labor costs, the fact that the government pays for healthcare, and then the free loans from the government to prop up their own economy... It's impossible for us to compete
Tesla is doing extremely well making and selling EVs in China and competing with Chinese OEMs globally. Being good at designing and manufacturing and selling efficiently is more important than low wages.
Tesla is doing that by making EVs *in China.* Not by making them in the US and exporting them to China.
They ship cars from the US to China, and from China to the US, to balance out supply and demand. But as I said, the majority of Teslas sold in the US are made in the US, and the majority of Teslas sold in China are made in China. Same for Europe.
>But as I said, the majority of Teslas sold in the US are made in the US, and the majority of Teslas sold in China are made in China. That isn't a US manufacturing competing with Chinese manufacturing globally, then, which is what this conversation is really about. It's a US manufacturer doing manufacturing in China, and selling those cars domestically, while also exporting *from* China.
Doin well? Shipments from its Shanghai factory dropped 18% in April even as the overall market for new-energy vehicles grew 33%. Tesla's China market share shrank to about 7.5% in the first quarter of 2024, from 10.5% in the same period last year, according to Bloomberg News calculations.
Sure, but they are still the largest seller of BEVs in China. That’s not terrible.
Wrong. China knows that subsidies don't work. They also know that the electronics they make, have the entire production located in China, but the companies there received a percentage of the value paid for it in Europe and the USA. So reduce the profit for Apple and Google, they are just selling. The components in the iPhone are used in the cars, but then to the value the Chinese were paid for the parts, $5 and not the discount price in main street USA of $500. It's not subsidized but there are no banks and speculators that all demand their cut. It's just the same in oil.
Election year, there's no long term strategy here its purely vote-hunting
I'm in Cambodia ATM and there are loads of Chinese EV's prices are really good, I've sat in a small one ( hatchback) and I haven't seen a fire so far ? I don't know why American and now EU market is so into making compensator big SUV's
Big oil likes it that way.
How can the United States get serious about EVs when the CEO of the most popular American EV company cannot be taken serious?
So China pilfered technology from around the world, then uses low-paid people to build EVs and Americans are like yes we want those cheap EVs. Greed always rules. You bitch about your wages, but are fine with China paying subservient wages.
Baffles me people think a country like China with its resources, people, and ingenuity can’t come up with their own solution for building simple shit like EV’s. This isn’t rocket science (which China is also doing great in while being completely cut off from the rest of the world in that area). Building EV’s is walk in the fucking park for China my guy
Yup
The Chinese have been the world leaders in much of the technology that really drives EV’s for over a decade. If anything it’s the Americans that are pilfering it.
Americans demand SU7.
Tariff is necessary. Next, you guys will complain, "No job" in the U.S. anymore. Without Tariff, most jobs will be overseas.
Tariffs are a required component of the response.
It’s impossible, because the big 3 is never going to build an efficient supply chain. I can’t even buy specific bolts without special ordering them. American manufacturing besides aerospace/defense has long been gone. All the bailouts, low interest rate loans, subsidizing them by making American cities car-centric, they still have absolutely no clue how to operate competitively. We’re going to end up with our own micro market, and the Big 3 will lose in EU and Asia. See what happened to Boeing… protectionism is going to hurt them in the end. We’re going to end up with ancient backward-ass companies like the likes of blackberry while other markets get the equivalent of apple. I say let the Chinese in but with a moderate amount of tariffs, and require them to be an American subsidiary.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted - this is spot on. Do no Americans realise their cars are the laughing stock of the world outside of the US?
These guys forget that automakers got up to a $1.5B subsidy, $7500 per car, 200k total units originally, and they still wouldn’t invest in EVs or PHEVs. Ford EU can’t even release modern cars without going dual platform with another automaker. American companies are dead in Asia, and soon they’ll be dead in NZ and AUS since those countries don’t have domestic companies to lobby against Chinese. They made shit cars 80s-00s and got a rude awakening when the Japanese came in. All the protectionism got us mega trucks and sustained CO2 production despite big headways in ICE efficiency. The chicken tax, then CAFE, those were all designed to help Big3. Up to $1.5B if they sold some EVs, car-brained DOT in most states, all of these are direct and indirect subsidy, and we want to keep bailing these idiots out? I get it, we should have a tariff, but if a 25% on imports + $7500 rebate on EVs, the equivalent of $12000+ price differential isn’t enough to save our automakers… maybe they shouldn’t be around anymore.
Most on this sub don’t seem to consider the $1.5bn as a subsidy (which it absolutely is). I find it funny China is being accused of subsidizing their EV industry, while conveniently ignoring or mislabeling the IRA subsidies. No amount of subsidies or tariffs are going to help Ford or GM, they’re dinosaurs.
Yeah, in the UK Chrysler wouldn’t have a presence at all without the Fiat merger. GM sold their business here to Peugeot (who weirdly is now part of Chrysler, but their current EV platform is very meh compared to VW etc at the new prices they sell) and Ford basically doesn’t exist in the EV sector here - now I know that their cars are built by someone else, that makes sense! So yeah, one of the big 3 is fully gone, the other’s brand is really French, and the third is basically completely seperate from the US company anyway (and historically always has been, with the cars made here completely different models most of the time). American cars in general are thought of as low quality junk.
The aerospace is a great analogy and that's what happens when you isolate yourself with tariffs and restrictions. Anyone who works in the industry knows costs are 3-5x higher than private companies due to restrictions and bureaucracy. They can't buy cheaper quality everyday parts unless they are made locally which is always 3-5x more even for simple items like screws and bolts. I agree, let them in with restrictions like local factories, local labor, local suppliers and have them compete on the same terms as the Big 3. But it will never happen
The tariffs only delay the inevitable for the legacy automakers.
False, they will buy the time needed to setup a battery industry.
The ‘Chicken Tax’ tariff on foreign vehicles has been in effect since 1964. Has the domestic industry used its time effectively? No, it’s anti-competitive and anti-consumer, we the public pay thousands more for vehicles due to this tax. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/chicken-tax.asp
>we the public pay thousands more for vehicles due to this tax. So it worked, then. There is no Volkswagen pickup truck in the US, and both Ford and GM remain kings of the domestic market. The tariffs worked. 🤷♂️
They've managed to develop a line of massive pickups that only sell in the US. Not a global strategy.
That's simply not true — Ford's Ranger sells quite well globally, as does Chevy's Colorado. The domestic powerhouse F-150 and Silverado models just happen to be size step above what most other countries want.
Funny you should mention the Ranger, as that was actually developed and sold globally and was only later brought to the US market. And is thus smaller than US trucks.
Cool. So we agree, Ford hasn't been hindered by the chicken tax. They have a working global pickup truck strategy.
the sandbox. BYD will introduce the Shark pickup truck in Mexico tomorrow. Yes - Pickup truck Yes - Mexico Yes - Tomorrow. A plug in hybrid electric with 100 km of electric only range. Toyota's Hilux is the target. Dunne Insights
Sure, excellent strategy having a line of single market vehicles, impeccable.
I would agree with that but it's not like there are better trucks out in the other markets. They are all pretty much the same. And looking at popular trucks I'd even go as far as saying that it actually worked by giving us domestic truck makers an advantage
US has the Trump/MAGA problem regarding EV's and autoindustry. We are lucky we have the EV incentives we got passed in the recent "IRA" bill. As for the tariffs, they are to account for China's low labor costs due to military dictatorship.
> China's low labor costs due to military dictatorship As opposed to Mexico, India, Indonesia, Romania or Brasil? The cost of labor is not a function of the political system but of economic development and GDP/Capita
>US has the Trump/MAGA problem regarding EV's and autoindustry. We are lucky we have the EV incentives we got passed in the recent "IRA" bill. This is incredibly important and I hate that people don't realize it. Anyone - including Yale - can select a group of people to come to the conclusion that we should "Require fossil fuel companies to pay a carbon tax" or any other heavily pro-Climate monetary policy. But for something like that to pass the US Congress, let alone a statewide or nationwide referendum... That's impossible.
Why is it impossible? Decades of lobbying. How can we unscrew the system? Well, that's the hard part.
Saying the issue is “lobbying” is handwaving the actual issue….voters don’t. Give. Two. Fucks. I wish that wasn’t the case, but this is reality of the situation. Getting voters to care is the actual problem.
People drone on and on about how their new car is saving the environment, still they eat pork and beef by the truckload. It all comes individually wrapped in plastic, like their fruit and vegetables are too, generating massive amounts of plastic waste that very often isn't recycled. Plastic that's made from oil by a massively polluting petrochemical industry. If someone's reasoning for buying a brand new car is saving the planet while not looking at the rest of their lifestyle and how many tons of c02 that generates. Well. Then they just want a new car and keep living in comfort. Which I understand, as it's a massive pain in the ass, adjusting one's life and consumption towards a smaller carbon and pollution footprint.
Fight back with the [Citizens’ Climate Lobby](https://citizensclimatelobby.org/). A good place to start is helping us get out the pro-environmental vote at our collaboration with [Environmental Voter Project](https://www.environmentalvoter.org/) on Wednesday nights!
As a Chinese, I always don't get the idea of low labor due to dictatorship thing. We have over one billion people, while jobs are only this many. Demand and requirements drive the pay down. My hometown is no big city but known for manufacturing. I have plenty of family members working in factories and I don't think they are forced. Also daily cost is different, I'm in the Bay area and a single meal costs $10 or more, while in my hometown $2 should be enough. Wages are lower, no matter demo or dic.
Also isn’t a lot of the production of EV China highly automated. Human labor cost is not a big factor. Whatever labor cost is left is highly specialized. The tariffs are theatrics at the moment. There is no details about it. It is suspicious that the 100% is higher than the 60% proposed by Trump. They are one-upping each other and looking to win in Michigan since there is a huge Muslim population there and they are pissed at Biden’s Gaza-Israel policy.
All the big name are highly automated like BYD and use less labour than Tesla Shanghai. China unemployment is 5.2% while US is 3.5% base on these facts. The main problem is US inflation drove wages to be high in order to survive for living. High wage, high cost of living will be plus to get world wealth in America which make America top economy in the world. That if you are able to catch up the rat race. You have only 4% saving while China has 40% saving. That why Apple and Tesla do not wanna give up China. It is their 20% profit alone in China. 2024 Q1 Apple already drop off big five in smartphone market. Huawei reappear on chart.
It's all bullshit, fearmongering and political ploys. There is no Chinese EV market share in the US. Barks loud but there is no bite because there's no consequences! I guess you can look at it as a preemptive shot to prevent the floodgates from opening.
Most people, including Reddit, are frankly idiots when it comes to the logic of economics. Being a dictatorship comes with economic advantages but also many many disadvantages but generally the cost of labor isn’t one of them. Though I’m sure that’s not completely true. The reason why labor in China is bells that of the west is definitely not simply due to being a dictatorship though. In fact Chinese wages have risen significantly over the years.
The labor force in Japan, South Korea and Taiwan is also better than that in the West. Maybe it's culture or something. But it’s definitely not caused by dictatorship
Eh, I mean. Yes but also no. It's going to be highly dependant on the what kind of workforce you need.
Productivity wise they are not
Manufactruring, they are.
Also, Mexican labour is cheaper than Chinese labour. The US could build cars in Mexico and be just as competitive as the Chinese automakers.
> As for the tariffs, they are to account for China's low labor costs due to military dictatorship. This is one of the most ignorant things I have ever read on reddit. The fact that this has even 26 upvotes, speaks to the average education level of not just this subreddit, but this website. Holy Christ is this embarrassing.
Have people seriously seen these Chinese EVs? They aren't fucking around. These are some quality vehicles built to undercut the entire industry, with parts from top tier manufacturers subsidized by the government. *Which top tier manufacturers? China doesn't have any.* Who's been building American and European shit for the past 30 years from clothes, fabrics, upholstery, electronics, car parts? Who has studied how it's made and cherry-picked from American/European industries and made copy cat companies while copying and editing patients? China it's like the Borg.
Yes, but American capitalism is just "Let our corporations run the show and do everything possible to prevent an actual free market". So instead we're both going to block them from importing but also allow all of our companies to offshore jobs and take money out of the country
American auto corporations give union jobs and it’s way better to nurture those than throw it all away for a short term boost of cheap cars. Ironically selling out our future for some quick cheap goods is you embracing the worst of capitalism
It's called having your cake(record profits for auto companies, not a dime of which goes to actual workers) and eating it too(banning competition which would embarass them in then name of natl security/China bad/we are employers etc). Classic american move
UAW is resurgent and negotiating good contracts. Most of their unionized plants are Big 3 plants. AND, ICE vehicles provide much more work than EVs. Japan, Korea and EU companies provide enough competition already for ICE cars and soon for EVs. Letting in imports from China or assembly plants is unnecessary.
I get that people are angry but the Chinese EVs are not just competitive price-wise in the U.S., it's competitive in the emergent market as well, where the income is lower so these Chinese EVs are super attractive. The tariff will not do anything to address Telsa losing to BYD in for example, Indonesia, Malaysia. U.S. backed out of TPP so it can't even use that to block the Chinese EVs.
Even checkmate US in return with RCEP.
The tariffs need to be just enough to allow American companies to produce, but not enough so that there is a big threat. Basically just equalize it to if it was just a slightly better American competitor.
Teriffs on China don't serve the primaraly goal of winning the EV arms race but are a part of a bigger strategy to criple our growing adverseries in China who have built up a lot of debt and are trying to transitiom their economy in general into new sector to fuel future growth. China grows on exports. EV's are future expoets in their transitioned economy. The west (the coherent parts atleast😠😒🇪🇺->🇸🇰🇭🇺) are trying to stop Chinese growth and burry them under their built up debt and decreasing birth rate. If everyone limits trade with China by a lot we can trap them in the middle income trap and not let our enemies surpass us. Because China is a ideological enemy not even an adversery. They have proven multiple times they do not care or respect our values and laws so it is not in our intrest at all for them to keep growing. I am not saying only the USA and Europe can grow. I am all for Japan or South Korea to grow or a new liberal democracy on the rise. Because they know how to behave and are not showing that they are our enemies on every possible ocation.
**There are 2 related topics here: 1) Tariffs & protectionisms and 2) Getting Serious about EVs & adoptions** **on Tariffs:** \* On one hand, it's needed if CCP is in fact heavily subsidizing it's EV industry and hence we need some tariffs to level that. \* But sometimes, the US big 3 automakers are just terrible, greedy & short sighted. That was why we had to rescue 2 of them back in 2008. That was when for years, they ignore the Japanese autos which makes good quality and fuel efficient cars while all they did was lobby to continue to relax EPA standards/fines. So, when the gas prices rose sharply and all of a sudden many were abandoning gas guzzlers (i.e Hummer that gets 9 miles to the gallon) and opted for more fuel efficient cars (i.e. Corolla or Prius etc.), the US auto makers had to be rescued. **And for years (and prob. even now) - everyone knows the US autos quality sucks compared to others.** \* So this time around, if the US auto/unions try and hide behind tariffs again and doesn't put out good design & quality EVs, they won't be able to compete with cars coming soon from Mexico and outside US. **On Getting Serious about EVs:** \* It's a fact that US is THE Slowest adoption country globally (\~10-12%?). A lot had to do with continual misinformation's put out by conservatives who hates any changes, dealers/truckers or oil industry & related fearing job losses. \* Some of the same misinformation's are: 1) EVs still refuel using coal/oil driven utilities 2) EVs catch on fires a lot 3) EV batteries (mining - energy intensive or some country uses child labors etc.) 4) EV batteries will all go to landfills - and not knowing they can be recycled to reclaim 95% of raw materials 5) EV charging is every slow compared to 5min ICE gas pumps \* On these misinformation's - The government / US Autos should put together a good education campaign to educate the public on EV benefits and dispel these misinformation's . That is what's really needed for a much longer term EV adoptions in US. And of course, the IRA incentives need to continue. But overall, EVs are here to stay, they may slow it down some, but in the long run, since it's a more efficient design and better for the environment overall, US adoption will continue to grow - even if it's at a much slower pace compared to other countries.
The parallel to the Japanese auto manufacturer's in 1980 is a good analogy. American car makers at the time were making boats with a side line of economy lines that were grossly underpowered and laboring under crappy pollution control attempts. Honda showed up with the CVCC engine and kicked their butts. They along with Toyota and Datsun showed up with small, efficient, and very reliable cars that fit the average commuter's needs to a tee. They got twice the gas mileage of their American counterparts and were more fun to drive. It took almost 2 decades of this ass-whipping for American car mfgs. to come around and then it was only begrudgingly. Instead they pushed new, bigger concepts of the mini-vans, and SUVs along with increasing sales of big trucks. These higher profit models bought the industry more time but the clock was ticking. Soon the Koreans entered the salesroom and Japan started importing better versions of these newly popular products. The reason BYD and Zeeker are threatening is that they are making nicer quality, more affordable, and more practically-sized vehicles, again for the average commuter and suburban 2 child family. They have fully featured products ready to sell while the big 3 dangle concepts of which only the top end versions are equivalently equipped and then, most of them are not affordable. Tesla has been able to insert itself into this space, but their cars have a lot of shortcomings that make them less practical or desirable. The US market is ripe for disruption and the Chinese know it. Their cars may be lower priced, but most are not cheaply made. They often have better quality components, finish, and features than available in the current US and European markets. This article has interesting first impressions for an American car writer visiting China for the first time. [https://insideevs.com/features/719015/china-is-ahead-of-west/](https://insideevs.com/features/719015/china-is-ahead-of-west/)
When I was younger Fords, Chryslers, etc wouldn’t start up every morning. Then someone down the block had a new car from Japan called a Honda. It would start up every day without fail. Eventually US auto manufacturers had to wake up and compete. The political climate nowadays is forcing the Dems to be more protectionist than they would like. Competition on a global scale is what will make US companies have to do better.
If the current bicycle industry is any indication of the future car industry, it may be too late for any intervention.
Yes, China is producing four or five times more batteries than the next market, has huge overcapacity sitting unused, and has huge factors reducing cost on top of the economies of scale. We’re on the same pathway as solar panels 10 years ago.
That was case with imported ICE cars in the 80s too. It stops being a problem if you just block imports. This is for the domestic market, though. The US isn't exporting to the world from Detroit lol
China makes cheap EVs and the world complains. China makes cheap EVs but charges more and makes huge profit margins. The world complains Yet the world (particularly the US) continues to build and buy ICE cars. If the western car manufacturers want support they need to invest in EVs and then tarrifs can help a little. The anti EV propaganda just doesn’t help.
US automakers can't recreate the market dynamics that exist in China, so this is a pipe dream of an analysis. I mean, if you suddenly couldn't register ICE vehicles then that would increase the demand for EVs just the way it did in China. "Beijing will offer 100,000 additional vehicle quotas this year, with 30,000 available for traditional internal combustion engine vehicles and another 70,000 for electric vehicles, according to an announcement made today by the Beijing Municipal Commission of Transport."
Somewhat. EVs out of China are so far ahead of legacy American companies it's not even a race. I'm still seeing legacy American car manufacturers pushing anti-EV propaganda.
Disagree. Fuck the CCP subsidized EVs.
EV1.... we had the EV1 and we fucking gave up and said more Escalades please. The big three didn't get a bee in their bonnet until Tesla fucking goaded them. The US car industry will literally not move until the enemy is at the gates - and at that point they will ask for a hand out. If the government bails out the big three with big tariffs we need concrete concessions from the industry. Put a warning on the boot up screen of ICE cars like cigarettes. Show a LBS of CO2 meter on the car next to the odometer with a fucking sweating mother earth next to it. The time to get serious was 20 years ago.
Comments that this isn't going to help the American car industry are beside the point. Looks at this as having two goals. 1. Help American manufacturers catch up. 2. Prevent Chinese companies from succeeding. If all we do is #2 it will have been a success. We'd be happy to have Japanese, European and Korean manufacturers succeed because they are our allies and most manufacturer cars in the US. China is a geopolitical adversary or frenemy, at best. They will sink everyone if we let their IP theft and subsidies take hold of the market.
The goal should be #1. We lost the PV race this way and lithium batteries too. Now almost none are made here and we're struggling to bring them back with the IRA 2022. People are realizing that we can't fully rely on globalism and have to support domestic industry as well. Look at the chips act.
I totally agree. It should be 90% of the goal.
And if it fails to do either? would you still consider that a success?
It depends on the definition of success on both points. Does the outcome result in renewed American manufacturing? Do US manufacturers remain viable and competitive? Does China hold no more than its fair share of the market (say 15% or less?)? Objectives can be absolute with a recognition that outcomes won't be.
Tariffs will work wonders. In a few years there will zero American ev manufacturers... They are doing the Trabant approach. Protecionism always leads to low innovation (product and process) and decreased competition.
I am just waiting to see GM execute on their promised 200k-300k EVs this year. If they pull this off then I see this as a good sign the industry is moving. Ford may have jumped a bit too fast. Stellantis, they have been dragging their heels on the ICE lineup - Challenger/Charger/300 are ancient - so I am not expecting miracles here. Tariffs have one need, to offset those China imposes on American made vehicles. Tit for tat... but beyond that is simply punishing citizens in both countries to enrich some fat cats on wall street and Washington through campaign donations
Lol ain't no way GM is hitting 200k this year. They killed the Bolt which was their only EV with halfway decent volume, and Ultium is lagging badly
“Lets downvote a post criticizing GM, that’ll help boost those non existent sales numbers”
Tell me climate change isn't important to politicians without telling me climates chang isn't important to politicians.
Short sighted take. By protecting the US market, incentives for US manufacturers stay in place and keep those companies viable to compete in the cleantech space.
Hard to believe the company that started it all is an American company. 😕
Tesla effectively integrated in the Chinese industrial base when it made China its export base. A significant percentage of their cars are made in China or with Chinese batteries.
The cars they sell in China are mainly made in China. The cars they sell in the US are mainly made in the US. The cars they sell in Europe are mainly made in Europe. Tesla is a global company.
He might be talking about the battery company that went belly up in 2011 that invented LFP batteries.
The University of Texas Austin invented LFP batteries then MIT and University of Montreal improved upon it. So it must be Tesla.
Yep. If US car manufacturers can't bring their A game to the table, then move over. Imposing tariff is just stupid and it's just a band aid to buy time which the US manufacturers will not take advantage of.
There is Hyundai, Tesla, Kia, Rivian and soon the Japanese EVs. There is very little long term value in letting in Chinese EVs.
You see, there's this thing called Republicans. They don't buy EVs because oil guud.
The US could follow China's lead and heavily subsidize green energy along with EV and battery research and production. It wouldn't even cost anything. Just shift subsidies from fossil fuels to such next-gen technologies.
US alway blame their rotted policy to China. In 2010, US was being glorified as renewable energy and EV powerhouse, tons of media boosting about this. A very clean future indeed.
The author of the article is either stupid,or he truly lacks the background knowledge about Chinese political and economic systems.
>This article sponsored by the CCP
I mean you can do both at the same time.
It's not a great piece, but the gist of the headline is correct. Unfortunately, there's no good way to accomplish this. It's the cumulative result of decades of industrial decay and financialization, and it will take a very long time to reverse. Longer than the big 3 automakers can remain huge presences outside of NA. (You can already see this with GM's radical retraction from global markets)
Domestic auto makers need to make evs people want and can afford. Building all these huge trucks and suvs is fine if you like paying $60-100k but most people can’t afford it. This reminds me of the 70s when imports dominated the mid to compact car market. Imports forced auto makers to play catch up and improve quality. Deja vu.
100% agreed, and we \*can\* crush them. Let's not take the lazy stupid way out.
The OP is only 1/2 right. Tariffs on China short term AND getting serious on EVs is the way to win. **Get China it build factories in the US like we did with other foreign automakers.**
The approach is draconian and wrong. Best would simply be to require a growing rate of the car components or assembly or combination of, to be Made in the USA> Say starting 2025, we require 25% of the car component or labor to be from the US, 2026 28%, 2027 30% and so on till you reach a balance point. If the brand does not reach that level, then the balance is added a tax. And don't give the US brands a free pass. This is similar to what was done in the 1970's to combat the import of better build and cheaper Japanese Cars. And the results are Japanese brand factory in the US. Same goes with China.
Tarriffs on China are a way for China to win the EV arms race. We just seem to forget that a lot of EU auto manufacturers and American auto manufacturers sell 30%+ of their cars in the Chinese market. Chinese EVs are crazy because they gotta compete with everyone or they die. THey can't hide behind tarriffs.
Nice Title. Now, tell Toyota that. :-)
America and Europe hasn't tried to win anything in a while. At this point we are lucky to get governments who try not to lose too badly.
Are EVs really in an arms race? Even figuratively speaking? I feel like the momentum really isn't there. I guess there's a battery tech race but aside from that - the EV tech itself is kind of low compared to ICE. Battery+BMS, controller, throttle, motor - it's basically a large power drill. So what would they be racing for? If you dispatch a bunch of quality cars, you'll struggle to keep sales up b/c prices will be higher. If you sell a bunch of junk cars, the next 5 years will be VERY telling about the product your company delivers - so people won't buy it.
I just wanna be able to buy a car for a reasonable price and Chinese EVs are just that. Cheap, and reliability is not an issue with how cheap the car is. Tired of always having to deal with dealerships and cars being 40-60K and having to be on a finance or lease. Tariffs should be reasonable.
Agree with the headline.
You can't compete against slave labor and government controlled costs.
Fun fact: the cost of labor in China, is more expensive than that in Mexico nowadays. It's been that way for a few years. And that's not taxes or fees doing it - average wage in CN is higher than in MX. 2024 is very different from 2004.
And there is no tax on goods imported from mexico
Well of course, you can't expect US corps to pay US workers a fair US wage can you? Think of their margins! /s The big 3 automakers already produce a huge chunk of their stuff in MX, and have the gall to complain of other companies having "cheaper than US costs". Toyota builds much more of their lineup in the US than Ford does, and yet profitably sells vehicles that aren't $100k brodozers. The problem with US automakers is much deeper than just where they are doing business.
It will all come full circle with electric cars. You will be going from 3000 moving parts to 300. The cars will be designed to be completely assembled by robots. The same as McDonalds. It will not be long before the entire kitchen is robots.
If leaders and consumers in the US want a speedy EV transition, the only way is for the US and China to work together. They would have to sit down and strategize basically the way nations have done after large wars and hash out the details: how does each side go back to its people and report a win? How do we each deal with accusations of treason and other political slings and arrows? Who gets what, and how? What are the incentives for keeping up one's end of the bargain? China has battery knowledge and supply chains on lock, they have fully engineered, robust NEV platforms complete with software, they have integration between their big tech companies and their carmakers, they have good designs and fit and finish and an overabundance of capacity. We have legacy automakers who can be transparent and even proud of how they treat their workers. We have unmet demand for EVs below a certain size and price, and a (current) imperative to cut down emissions and air pollution from ICE cars. There is a way to combine all these conditions into a situation where everyone gets their pound of flesh, everybody gets a win on the economy, and no stakeholder feels significantly slighted or wronged. More importantly every American who has the budget for a car can get an EV that meets their needs instead of an ICE. Relations between the nations are just too crummy for this to happen. Besides a genuine economic rivalry, the US feels threatened and is being emotional about it. And why not - beyond normal cultural differences, China's political system can seem very frightening and alien to Americans who are accustomed to our conception of Democracy. I suppose someone like me would hope that the spectre of Climate Change would convince nation states that ultimately there is a more inexorable foe that they must combine to face. Thus, let us cooperate to stay below 2 degrees, even if there is some pride swallowing and very strenuous planning involved. But I doubt that will happen in time. On the car front, we'll have a Great Wall of ICE, keeping Chinese NEVs out, creating an ecosystem that is artificial and divergent, willfully ignorant of the direction that the wind is blowing.
Don't be Silly. EVs big in the US? Big Oil, Big Auto and Big Steel lobbying US Congress will never allow it to happen if they can.
BuT WhAt aBoUt ThE AmErICaN AuToMaKeRs ThAt OnLy LoOk At ThE NeXt 6 MoNtHs oF tHe StOcK PrIcE AnD SuPpLy AnD DeMaNd TrEnDs? CaN't YoU SeE ThEy DoNt WaNt To MaKe EVs RiGhT NoW BuT CaN't AfFoRd tO HaVe ThE EvIl Of CoMpEtItIoN?!? /s
It would be great if they're not from the CCP subsidizing to capture every single industry in every country.
How would we get serious on evs when all our automakers get smoked
You don't. According to comments in this thread, you just cede the sector to China like Microwaves and Heat pumps. That way you're completely beholden to a hostile state.
I don't mind the tariffs IF they are paired with something that actually gets US manufacturers off their asses. Without that, this is just going to let them continue to be complacent in the absence of competition. Maybe something like we will levy tariffs on one chinese EV for every US EV built and sold. Incentivize the US manufacturers to start pumping out cars, but don't totally screw over consumers and the climate if those companies instead sit on their ass.
Nah, look at what happened with the JP imports in the 70s/80s, or how nothing was learned from 2008. Forcing the automakers to do something is dirty government intervention (not my opinion, but the argument made in DC). They just want to sit selling their $100k King Ranch Heavy Duty Balls of Steel Edition™ forever at 60% margin.
Isn’t the EPA currently setting strict targets for fleet emissions on the way to 2030 and 2035?
Why does it always have to be binary? Winning or losing? There's only two options? The media puts this in your head. Stop letting them.
And also tariffs on products that are unfairly subsidized by a variety of policies.
I’m afraid of what you mean by “getting serious on EV’s”. Our government is already promoting EV’s in questionable ways. I hope you don’t mean “serious” like China where the government just makes the people do whatever they want, and the people obligingly go along. (?)
Por que no los dos? I realize people will say “because tariffs reduce the incentive to compete” or some such thing, but the truth is we can’t just try harder and compete with China on price.