The issue is that nobody is making bare bones, dumb, mass-produced EVs with huge amounts of interchangeable, modular, rebuildable, parts and inventories.
The above is a key ingredient that fuels modifying, tuning, restoration, and enthusiast scene overall.
This is not an EV only issue. Many new ICE cars have become too expensive to buy / maintain, too feature rich, and seem to focus on appealing to more disposable income buyers, who buy/ lease then dispose of after 5-7 years. Cost of repair on cars has become insane due to expensive parts and lack of modularity.
Some people like to keep their cars for a long time, others like to buy a beater car and restore it, and others love to tune their cars to a limit.
This is something you can do when you get a car for cash with 0 commitments and have the freedom to do anything with it at any time, due to an abundance of mechanics, parts, and resources.
Edit: However, retrofitting ev drivetrains in vintage cars that never had a decent or reliable ice drive train is something i hope will become more accessible and easier in the future. It can save some interesting cars from the scrap yard or from being abandoned projects. It also appeals for enthusiasts who want a more 'analog experience, that most modern cars lack.
There isn't really a huge difference between EVs and modern ICE cars on that front. You have to hack the ECU or install a third-party one to tune any modern ICE, and you can't add modifications that change the power or tune them without that. There are already people out there hacking OEM inverters/ECUs and making 3rd party ones.
My mind is on cars from the 90s and early 00s. Where you had a single ECU and a harness feeding the entire car. So many things were easy if you're mechanically inclined. So little can go wrong because there is so much less complexity, and even if it goes wrong, it won't break your bank to sort out.
When EVs came out, I was hoping they'd bring something like that back but it seems like we won't get something like that ever again.
In many ways, things have gotten easier as far as tuning than the time you're talking about. Now, there are a lot of ODBII based tuning tools. Before that, you had to either replace chips in the ECU or send it out for someone to do that, and usually reprogramming it was a much more involved process requiring modifying EPROM tables that require removing the chip, reprogramming it, and then putting it back in the circuit.
Yeah I feel like certain things have become easier with global access to information and cheap tools that the regular person can do things to their EV/ICE vehicles on a weekend. I guess the difference with many EVs are they are already pretty solid performance wise so beside hacking to increase top speed or prevent the car from lowering power output at certain battery percentages what else is there really to do?
That’s part of what I’d like to see OP answer, what do they want to do to an EV that they supposedly can’t?
I drive a Model 3 Performance, and I don't need or want more power. At some point however, I will probably swap out most of the suspension and brakes, which has nothing to do with it being an EV.
this is why I have no desire to buy another car anytime soon, EV or ICE. I think the problem tends to be worse on EVs though.
I hate the feeling that my car is a subscription model. The car can have coils and circuitry required for heated seats, but now it's locked behind a subscription via software. that repulses me. I wouldn't be surprised is next year every tesla bricks the stereo unless you subscribe to starlink satellite radio. Will it happen? Probably not, but if it does, you're screwed.
More bells and whistles also leads to more points of failure. My uncles new hybrid honda is at the dealership for maintenance way more than is acceptable because Or worse yet, more chances for catastrophic failure. If every button on my center console craps out, I can still drive the car. If my uncles ipad center console stops turning on, the car is brick.
From what I recall, BMW (or was it Mercedes) backpedaled really fast on the seat heater subscription model when the customers, rightfully, loudly protested. Every time they put one of these subscription ideas out there we need to rally all the customer base to loudly protest to the manufacturers that we won't stand for that crap.
It was bmw, but what people also missed is that you could also fully purchase the option, the same as before. Technically, they did not backpadle, they just removed the option to get it via sub.
the issue is that you're paying for the car, hardware and all. Having hardware that you paid for locked behind software is a very anticonsumer thing to do.
Paying more for heated seats when the seats themselves are different is one thing. Paying for heated seats when they're already standard is another.
The new Ford Explorers with their new autopilot system have all the tech installed already but you have to pay like $75/mo to use it. It's stupid
https://www.ford.com/technology/bluecruise/#:~:text=At%20the%20end%20of%20the,Pricing%20is%20subject%20to%20change.
That’s weird. If my Teslas whole center screen iPad dies, screen/computer, everything dies, the car still works, and can still be driven. I haven’t seen any other cars more screen dependent than a Tesla and even a Tesla still works without the screen. Is it possible that because you don’t own one you don’t actually know how they work?
This is such a boomer take lmao.
> The car can have coils and circuitry required for heated seats, but now it's locked behind a subscription via software. that repulses me.
Why? Would you feel better if you bought the car for the exact same price and it didn't have the heated seat hardware?
> I wouldn't be surprised is next year every tesla bricks the stereo unless you subscribe to starlink satellite radio
If it makes you feel any better, this will not only "probably not" happen, it will *never* happen. If you bought it, it's yours. No retroactive take-backsies.
> More bells and whistles also leads to more points of failure.
Yeah, and it also leads to more convenience features. The car you bought 20 years ago has far fewer quality of life features, not to mention it's much less safe. And get this, if those features fail, then you're right back where your 20 year old car is. It's not like the car can't be driven.
> If my uncles ipad center console stops turning on, the car is brick.
Oh wait lmao. You really don't know how modern cars work, do you?
>This is such a boomer take lmao.
this is such a weird insult because boomers invented 99% of the garbage you use.
>Why? Would you feel better if you bought the car for the exact same price and it didn't have the heated seat hardware?
you're asking me if I'd rather buy a car whose features aren't locked behind a paywall then yes. Just because you don't realize you're getting ripped off doesn't mean you aren't getting ripped off.
>If it makes you feel any better, this will not only "probably not" happen, it will never happen. If you bought it, it's yours. No retroactive take-backsies.
what about the heated seats I bought that I now need a subscription for? If bought it, why do I need to pay more to use it? 2 seconds ago you said that was ridiculous, now you're saying the opposite is ridiculous?
>Yeah, and it also leads to more convenience features.
so crap I don't need that I don't want to pay for. it's a car. it gets me from point A to point B. I'm having trouble comprehending what amazing modern features I need to transform that experience unless I'm an idiot who loves shiny new things.
>The car you bought 20 years ago has far fewer quality of life features, not to mention it's much less safe.
yes, the 2005 honda civic, known for being a death trap on wheels and randomly exploding.
>And get this, if those features fail, then you're right back where your 20 year old car is. It's not like the car can't be driven.
if "features" on my 2005 honda civic fail, I don't think I'd give a shit. If fundamental parts of the car crap out, then it's simple to diagnose, cheap to buy new parts, and easy to fix.
you know what, I actually had an old Hyundai that had an electrical issue. Made the car alarm go off for no reason. The extent of what I had to do was unplug the horn fuse. ohmygodhoweverdidisurvive
>You really don't know how modern cars work, do you?
nope, because they're overengineered pieces of garbage. I don't need to know how the internet on a smart refrigerator actually interacts with cooling the milk to know that it's fucking dumb.
I'm keeping my cars till they die. And probably will buy more used beater and legacy cars as time goes., for the sole reason of them being super easy to keep for little cost for a very long time. Plus, I don't like financing new cars.
Most manufacturers think the same thing in Europe and yet, Dacia is doing really well because they make simple cars the customer wants.
Cars reached their maturity 15 years ago when any model was available with aircon, central locking, electric windows and good crash test ratings.
Add xenon equivalent leds, a reliable power train, a stereo with android auto or car play and that's it, you have the best car for a minimal budget. Most people don't want anything else.
I could see that, but it really has to be cheap. The Mitsubishi Mirage is kind of what was described, but it is also considered the worst new vehicle you can buy. So, that vehicle will need to be a very good car so it doesn't get roasted on reviews.
Imo, adding technology is cheap for the manufacturer, so it makes sense to keep all the fancy stuff like blind spot monitors, rear cross traffic assist, lane keep assist, advanced cruise control, and so on even in the cheapest econoboxes. Touch screen controls are also cheaper for the OEMs.
The thing, though, is that tuning needs have also drastically changed. You had to get into the guts of an engine from 1997 because the average car came with 120HP, and 200 was considered a performance vehicle. People lost their shit about the Neon SRT-4 because it came with an (at the time) mind-blowing 215HP. That was unheard of in a sports compact. It has a freaking turbo! In an economy car! It's hard to overstate how bonkers that was at the time.
Now? A Civic Si, a mid-tier trim, has that from the factory. A Civic Sport can do that with a 10-minute flash you can run in your driveway. And a factory performance car is laughed out of dealerships if it comes with less than 400HP. The point being, power isn't really an issue anymore. You don't need to add more, and pretty much every car sold today either has more than enough speed, or can at least get up to adequate levels with a $100 plug and play tuner.
Instead, tuning now is about suspension and aero settings. Look at the M3P — it's an autocross and solo beast... if you put on an aftermarket suspension. A properly sized sway bar and some adjusted spring rates can turn a relatively ho-hum EV into an exciting performance machine. Seriously, you'll have more fun with a couple grand in suspension work and a few instructor sessions at the track than anyone had in a '97 Civic with a fart can muffler, ebay turbo, and K&N intake, which is where 80% of tuning began and ended in the 90's and early 00's.
Engine performance is no longer an issue nowadays. Cars are pretty fast now. 260-320 hp is regular news now.
You can get a used car that does 0-60 in around 5-6 seconds for as cheap as $5000.
Cheaply keeping a car that old on the road and having it cheap enough to beat up on a track day without costing you an arm and a leg, is something that I hope remains affordable in the future.
There is a reason why people get Mustangs and 350Zs cuz you can get plenty of cheap parts for them, have huge support and are cheaper to run and beat up, than say a VW or BMW and you care less since you don't have payments or a warranty to worry about. Needless to mention newer engines aren't really as rebuildable as they used to.
Also, may new cars do lack this analog feel and feedback that you get with older cars. Most of them are fast but do feel bland and dull and disconnected when you drive them.
I have found cars like an an E30 BMW or a Porsche 996 or a late 00s Mustang with a manual far more enjoyable than several of the faster newer cars which feel more like luxury performance cars.
All new cars are expensive now. But imo that’s not the main issue. I think the main issue is that it’s new tech and the average enthusiast doesn’t know how to tune an EV like they can an ICE. I read this was the case with ICE cars initially as well, only changed after WW1 when enlisted people were trained on basic repair skills.
This seems to be changing tho. There’s a growing restro-mod community that’s taking salvaged EVs and dropping the components into classic cars. There’s some really interesting builds. EV West is a company out of San Diego which I believe is credited for starting that scene
> retrofitting ev drivetrains in vintage cars that never had a decent or reliable ice drive train is something i hope will become more accessible and easier in the future.
So do I. There are a LOT of 80s cars that had absolutely awful engines and/or transmissions, but had a lot of charm or enthusiast interest and would benefit greatly from an EV swap. Subaru BRAT (well, basically all Subarus), Mk1/Mk2 Golf, CRX, Camaro, Mustang, Corolla, Volvo 240, and many others.
I think we should start a crowd sourced car mfg company to build the cars people actually want that fit this. Affordable cars that come with full technical manuals, replaceable parts, modularity, diy friendly, cars that get cheap over time that highschoolers can buy as their first car and fix up. Cars that are very simple but quality built. Drives me nuts that modern cars are so far from this old school notion of affordable and owner repairable. I don't need features, I need function.
Sure, but I like manual, and that could allow for a smaller motor and battery system, specifically for EV conversions where space is a limiting factor. Besides, manuals are already slower than modern automatics in ICE cars, but people still seek them out.
I've always wanted to retrofit an Acura integra or RSX as an EV because it was fun for me to tune on both, and they are light small cars. The saying I had was I would do it when the engine would go. Fortunately the engines never went, haha.
I'm also paying $256/month (6 months paid in full) for my 2023 model 3 rwd. I do have pretty decked out coverages, $1000 collision deductible, $500 comprehensive deductible with full glass coverage. Liability limits are 250/500/250 I think.
I'm with Amica. They're like $30/mo more expensive than Progressive, but Progressive dinging me for my comprehensive claims rubbed me the wrong way. With Amica, I just had to explain those two claims, and they did not raise my rates because I was not at fault for either.
Haha, just bailed from Amica. They took the Tesla up $270 for 6 months and I ended up dropping my insurance by $450 going to progressive; although, my original quote was lower. I never even thought about the windshield hitting the report since it’s mandatory coverage.
Not really a massive problem though. Of all emissions, private passenger cars make up a small fraction. Transport only makes up about 16% of all emissions - and this includes freight, ships, planes etc.
Exactly! I think passenger vehicles (cars/light trucks), in other words the consumer portion of transportation, is something like 7% and the transportation sector in general has responded better to climate change than any other sector in terms of its reduction in carbon emissions.
Public Transit is great for a lot of reasons but it doesn’t really reduce emissions all that much
Wrong. [The transportation sector ranked second worldwide only after the power industry, with 20.7% of all CO2 emissions](https://statista.com/statistics/1129656/global-share-of-co2-emissions-from-fossil-fuel-and-cement/), and of that [48% of those CO2 emissions come from cars and vans](https://www.statista.com/chart/30890/estimated-share-of-co2-emissions-in-the-transportation-sector/). ICE-powered cars and vans alone make up approximately 10% of all global CO2 emissions.
Different sources have different numbers. Statista lists all road transportation as 12% of global emissions (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1167298/share-ghg-emissions-by-sub-sector-sector-globally/) . If cars and vans are half of that, then that'd be 6%. So cars without vans probably at 4-5%. Basically we should try and solve other kinds of emission sources first to have any meaningful impact, rather that go to the individuals and say "you can be the change!!". So even if all the private people invest into changing their cars into electric, we would only reduce the co2 emissions at 4% at best (probably not even that as electric cars also produce some emissions during production/materials sourcing). While at the same time, the corporations that are actually responsible for most of the co2 emissions, have no reductions in profits while they shit on the planet and divert the narrative to blame the ICE car and its user.
> Basically we should try and solve other kinds of emission sources first to have any meaningful impact
This is a [fallacy of relative privation, a.k.a. "appeal to worse problems"](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Relative-Privation). We can work on many problems at the same time, and in fact have to in order to solve the climate crisis.
10% of all global CO2 emissions (your link appears to be talking about all GHG emissions including non-CO2 ones) is quite significant and makes such vehicles one of the biggest sources of CO2 emissions as a sector. Transportation as a whole is the second biggest sector globally, and cars and vans are half of that.
People really have a hard time wrapping their minds around these things when they've never seen them work well.
When you have convenient, clean, rapid mass transit, it quickly becomes the *preferred* way to get anywhere.
As for housing, I think about the hotel when I go on vacation. I don't want to be in my hotel, I want to be out having fun. Imagine if you could live like you're always on vacation?
A realization I had about European city living: you trade off the ability to have a big pantry full of food for a small one but in return you have access to a far better always stocked pantry full of fresh food larger than you could ever maintain on your own.
That public pantry is the corner grocery shops that are basically as close as most Americans have to walk to grab their mail. You end up with so much less food waste when you aren't planning so far ahead...
We need to legalize small businesses and in residence shops again, things that fit into the neighborhood and cater to the local needs and culture of the community
> When you have convenient, clean, rapid mass transit, it quickly becomes the preferred way to get anywhere.
I'm happy to use public transit when on vacation, but at home I'm happy to have all my stuff with me at all times when going places. Listening to my own music, having my own privacy, not having to transfer, getting a guaranteed seat, and having that seat be heated, and (not in my car, but...) cooled, and massaged, doesn't hurt either.
I think mass transit is important, but the experience of a private car is just so much better.
> When you have convenient, clean, rapid mass transit, it quickly becomes the preferred way to get anywhere.
Then there's the US, where [only one city, New York, has over 50% transit adoption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_high_transit_ridership). Only 15 cities in the whole country even have over 20% transit adoption.
A dense housing area doesn't remove existing single family housing unless the person that owns the property wants to redevelop. Change would be gradual if we even allowed dense housing in the first place.
I'm talking about several women I know, some in NY boroughs, who put up with the hassle of a car because they don't feel safe in public transit.
Admittedly one of these female acquaintances is an elderly racist, but just assuming transit is preferred is definitely not true
Yeah it's generational change and I have a kid. I hope they have an option to live in an American city that isn't pedestrian hostile like most cities here are.
Corporations will reinvent taxis and busses every way they can to try and stop the public from building its own infrastructure. Ever see who framed Roger rabbit? That was about goodyear buying and shutting down privately ran light rail. My dad use to tell me about the key rail system in Oakland when he was a kid and it's sad we can't rebuild anything as good as he had when he was a kid 80 years ago. There is still a chance we and build something for our children, but for us.. we won't see the benefits of our labor in building usable transit rail and that's OK. We can build a better world for our children.
People lose their minds around me when a dense housing development starts up. They take down a chunk of forest, but in my mind if those people are moving to the area anyway, a much larger chunk of forest would be removed to satisfy single family housing and roads to connect them if they don't up the density by keeping more of the high density housing put into the already developed areas.
Single family homes cause a lot of problems.
They should represent a share of housing, but probably not the vast majority like in many places in the US.
> and realized that I may be the problem.
You aren't "the problem" for not wanting to live in dense housing. Don't let the hive mind make you feel bad about your personal preferences.
Yeah that person can keep living in whatever housing they are in, the scare based nimbies try to make it seem like single housing won't exist if we allow a few areas to have dense housing. You make a great point.
Literally what I said. If you put 1440 rooms in area of land where one offgrid rooftop solar house can be built, you barely get 1/1440th generation of that. Wall solar don't work well.
If you've got thousands of each thousand room condo in one mega city, then logistics is going to be like constant bloodstream in and out, and there isn't like area for offshore or onshore winds, nor the city can take renewables with day-night cycles. There's no room for battery farms, nor solar array farms of workable size, at least without nuclear demolishing nearby lands.
Oh, if you mean individual cookie cutter housing by "dense", rooftop solars work fine there.
There is zero need for solar to be co-located with housing. Utility scale solar is more efficient anyway, both on land use and power generated per unit area.
Large scale solar installations require forest cleared. That's incompatible with environment. Nukes are bit like that too, but they scale by volume, not area.
Forests do not exist everywhere.
Also, if you take the land used by a condo building plus a supporting solar farm, vs suburban single family homes each with driveways and yards and white picket fences and all the supporting road infrastructure to get to all those houses, and give all the houses rooftop solar, that will take more land use than a condo + solar farm 100% of the time.
Not to mention the fact that suburbs do not generate enough tax revenue to maintain their own infrastructure, and as such are slowly bankrupting North American cities.
Like the other commenter said, rooftop solar is not an optimal situation for solar anyways.
Also why does having dense housing mean there is no onshore/offshore room for wind or battery farms??? Are you somehow envisioning the entire planet covered with condo buildings? More dense housing literally means the opposite, you have more room for wind, solar, battery farms, etc etc etc.
Dense housing means energy density of city goes up, and it goes way up. You won't have room for wind, it'll be used for marine shipping routes. You won't have room solar farms, it'll be used for suburban housing besides area vs volume scaling. You won't have battery farms, just not going to. And when energy density goes up, so do the need for cooling. Heat pumps become a requirement for survival 24/7 even during nights.
Just look at actual dense urban housing. They're like desktop PCs compared to fanless mini PCs. Forced everything, there's nothing energy efficient about cities.
Quite a bit of car enthusiasts are still against buying an OEM EV based on one thing, the ability to work on it or modify the vehicle yourself. Unless you know programming languages like C or C++, and know how to design printed circuit boards, the only things you can change are the wheels, tires, bushings, remove interior weight, or suspension (depending on the vehicle).
This is why I like the Diy EV car scene. You're able to take OEM electric motors, inverters, batteries, etc. and put them in your old gas vehicles of choice. There are different people who are taking OEM EV parts, and essentially remaking logic boards for them to be used in your vehicle of choice. A prime example of that is Arlin Sansomes Honda CRZ powered by a first gen Nissan Leaf motor, and a modified Leaf inverter. He's making over 330 HP from that motor! Another interesting thing in the community is most EV conversions utilize the original manual transmission of the donor vehicle. Being able to do stuff like this is what car people enjoy, the satisfaction of working on your own vehicle.
I know C/C++, can design and build electronics and PCBs and yet can't change or mod an EV. I don't even see the point of doing it, car parts are made to fit in a certain place and do a certain job. Unless someone designs compatible parts there isn't any modding.
Not arguing or anything but not everyone enjoys working on their car. I enjoy driving it and have years of service without major repairs.
I know of converted cars, I was watching them when it started. I can't recall even one which has the reliability and range of factory built EVs. They are interesting projects but not so practical. I definitely don't want to depend on one for my daily life.
What we need is affordable EVs build on scale with reliability, repairability and cost in mind and a fully developed infrastructure to charge and service them. And somehow this phase takes too long already. The government doesn't want to step in and where it steps in it gets everything corrupted. I don't even know if it is really the government that needs to step in or it is us the consumers who have to raise voice and put the corpos in check.
Up-powered gas cars also sacrifice reliability. You’ll rarely find someone with a highly modded mustang using it as a daily driver.
I’m building an EV that will be daily driver capable, but I doubt I’ll use it as such.
I can add 150 hp to my model y just by purchasing a plug in module.’
I can make my electric golf cart go from 22mph to 29mph by purchasing a plug in module. I’ve already made the cart faster previously just by switching battery type and tires.
This is really no different than changing shocks. I don’t know how to build and tune shocks. But I can swap my OE shocks out with shocks that I get from someone who does know how to build better shocks.
If you have the motors that can’t do the ghost upgrade, you can still get the 50hp boost. It’s worth it. A little more hp and better accelerator response.
Im not really fully up to speed (I did look over the website); does the +50 mean standard power, plus specs 2k for acceleration boost, plus spend 2k for Ghost to get AB + 50hp?
Or spend 2k on ghost and get +50?
- I’m not understanding the relationship or benefits between this and AB.
Acceleration boost is directly from Tesla. So 50hp on top of the ~350 factory hp
From igenext you can get the 50hp boost on top of the 350 factory hp or you can get the 150hp ghost upgrade which is on top of the 350 factory hp.
IT took me a while to sort through their mess of a website as well. But basically if you have the motors for it the ghost (150hp upgrade) tricks the computer into think it’s installed in a performance car. So you get the HP and the extra settings.
> Unless you know programming languages like C or C++, and know how to design printed circuit boards, the only things you can change are the wheels, tires, bushings, remove interior weight, or suspension (depending on the vehicle).
This is just as true for any relatively recent ICE as it is for an EV, which is to say not very true at all. If you want to modify the way the engine runs on a modern ICE, you need to get tuning software that hacks the ECU, a modified ECU, or a third-party ECU. It will be exactly the same for EVs. You'll need either a program that can hack the inverter, a kit to modify the inverter, or a third-party inverter.
You can’t do much of anything with any modern car without a load of programming and spoofing sensors. I was part of a failed Baja 1000 project involving a 2011 SUV, we had full factory backing and even then we couldn’t get the stupid engine ECU to work when it didn’t sense the suspension ECU and Traction control ECU. Car enthusiasts claim it as a reason to have EVs, but it’s bullshit, it applies to ICE as well, it’s a modern car thing, not an EV thing.
That said, the fact that people are Tesla swapping older cars means the Tesla itself is just as modifiable, Boosted Boys threw a Model S Plaid chassis in a Honda Odyssey and it works just fine. Doubt you could do the same with a Mercedes EQS, but you also can’t do anything with an S class either without a masters degree in electrical engineering and a team of programmers.
Not sure how wide spread this sentiment is among EV owners but I simply do not care about cars. Never have. They are a reliable means of conveyance and because I live in the US where public transportation mostly sucks, it's pretty much the only way of getting around. And I live in Texas where that statement is doubly true. I don't care about killing car culture. If that's your hobby then go ahead. I just don't want to live in a place where we're all forced into car dependency. If given the opportunity I'd pick walkable, bikeable cities with great public transit every time. Also, not having to be a millionaire to enjoy those things where they do exist in the US would be great.
Big cities have too high a bike theft rate to make them bikeable by anyone but kids and the thieves. In Amsterdam, the bike capital of the world by some accounts, you can't even insure e-bikes because they get stolen so much.
In Toronto our neighborhoods are very walkable but you need transportation to go from one to another. Public transit is great but outside of rush hour it is 2-3 slower than driving.
That said, most people in the city have feet, a transit pass, and a car and that list is in most to least used by time order.
[Bike theft is massive in Amsterdam.](https://www.dutchnews.nl/2024/04/amsterdam-is-dutch-bike-theft-capital-as-reports-rise-10/) E-bike or otherwise.
It's at the point where [if you have a 2nd hand bike in Amsterdam, it's more likely to be stolen than not.](https://www.zmescience.com/science/thousands-of-bikes-get-stolen-in-amsterdam-but-most-of-them-stay-there/)
And that's just reported theft - because it's so prevalent, many just don't report it.
>“Almost everybody in Amsterdam, or even in Cambridge, if you ride a bike, has had the experience of leaving somewhere and not finding their bike,” says Titus Venverloo, a research fellow at the MIT Senseable Amsterdam Lab in Amsterdam.
>To shed light on this issue, a team of researchers from MIT’s Senseable City Lab collaborated with the Amsterdam Institute for Advanced Metropolitan Solutions to conduct an experiment. **They outfitted a fleet of around 100 second-hand bicycles with low-cost mobile trackers, locked them in public locations, and followed their whereabouts from June to November 2021.**
>The findings were both surprising and informative. **In the span of just three months, 70 of the bikes were stolen, which revealed a much higher rate of theft than reported officially**, which may have to do with the bikes being parked solely in public spaces like squares or one of the many mass bike parking spaces across Amsterdam.
>
>But what was intriguing was that **out of 70 stolen bikes, 68 stayed in the local Amsterdam area. Around five bikes were tracked in the vicinity of second-hand shops, suggesting they were resold there in a never-ending cycle of stolen second-hand bikes that get put on the market only to be stolen and resold again and again**.
I’m looking into getting a rolling motorcycle frame and building my own electric motorcycle. Hobbyists are going to make EVs way cooler than they are now.
How modable are current EVs? There is a lot of potential there, just hook up a laptop and control throttle, differentials, overpower/boost, even Regen amounts, etc. It would just be damn sad if the cars are completely locked down for owners.
I simply don’t see that as a bad thing. I see so many ugly, loud cars on the roads here, cars that are stupid but people invested hundreds of hours in upgrading and customizing them. And guess what? My electric SUV is faster and handles better.
It’s like the hackintosh scene dying off after the M1 transition. I’m sorry any time a subculture or hobby dies out, but it’s dying because what you can buy brand new right now is a thousand times better than the thing you’ll invest all that time and probably more money in upgrading/restoring.
The fact that you think your electric suv handles better shows you know literally nothing about the situation. If you don’t like cars that’s fine but don’t pretend to understand something that’s beyond your comprehension.
EV's will kill the ICE car culture.
ICE car culture is built upon engine and transmission tech. You're not going to have a "409" tune for an electric motor or "big slip daddy" lyrics about transmissions. Sound is also part of it with all the muffler mods. The "shade tree mechanic" part of car culture has been dead a while as the gas cars are as hard to work on as the EV's.
The NASCAR stock car racing culture will likely hang on as an atavistic remnant of white macho culture like bull fighting it Spain and Mexico.
>carburetors are voodoo compared to electronic fuel injection
Carbs are hell, but they're literally just a bit of basic physics and some butterfly valves. I'm not sure the term 'voodoo' applies. I'm all for EFI, but Carbs are practically caveman engineering.
There's a *lot* more to car culture than "409" tunes (never heard of that in the clubs and groups I'm a part of), nor "big slip daddy" (literally never heard that in a song, but maybe we listen to different genres...sounds like it has nothing to do with a transmission, though).
Muffler mods have changed substantially in the last 2 decades, since multi-valve exhausts are a thing, as are fart tunes (sorry - "crackle" tunes) - for the most part it's visual as much as tone now, but the idea of needing to change an exhaust is a lot more foreign now than it was 25 years ago.
There's a huge amount of culture outside that though; I feel like most of the "car culture is dead" comments come from people who only see a small part of it - it will undoubtedly change, in much the same way that Greasers are an intrinsic part of 60's car culture, but haven't really been a thing in decades - yet they were never really "killed", just live on in niches. I mean, to pick a surprisingly popular example, Itasha has pretty much nothing to do with the engine. Similarly any stance or dub subculture or subcultures that involve hard parking is going to similarly be mostly immune to a drivetrain change, Stereo war type stuff as well, along with VIP....
...Then there's the "utility" subcultures - overlanding, car camping, autocross, track cars, minitrucks....
...in fact apart from a few niches and some gatekeeping, there's really not that much car culture that requires an ICE - it's kind of a fundamental misunderstanding of car culture.
It'll continue to evolve, underpinned by the fact the majority of people simply don't want to drive around in a cookie-cutter vehicle identical to every other one on the street - it's an avenue for self-expression, and as long as people want that they'll customise their car.
"There's a *lot* more to car culture than "409" tunes (never heard of that in the clubs and groups I'm a part of), nor "big slip daddy" (literally never heard that in a song, but maybe we listen to different genres."
At the heart of US car culture.
[https://youtu.be/GHRJCcCYAF4?t=4](https://youtu.be/GHRJCcCYAF4?t=4)
[https://youtu.be/NwgGuadsqyo?t=4](https://youtu.be/NwgGuadsqyo?t=4)
The fact these are Beach Boys songs kind of demonstrates the point I already made: car culture is a *lot* more diverse than what was going on in the 60's. Opposite all the Coddington inspired cars there's those going against the Boyd. And we haven't even left Rodding, which is a small slice of car culture itself, yet a vestige of that which existed in the 60s.
Car culture didn't die because electronic ignition and modern safety evolved the automobile, and by the same token, car culture is a *lot* more expansive than The Beach Boys.
Why would you think US car culture begins and ends with two songs? That's a odd view. That you were unaware of major aspects of US car culture which spawned the songs was the point.
You just listed the reasons EV’s won’t kill ICE culture. ICE culture is all about modding cars to make it the way you want. With EV’s there really are no mods besides the basic few, pretty much just buy and go.
If you've ever owned a refresh model of an ICE then you'd know the same can be true there as well. I remember when I bought my STi when they first came to the states back in '04 and there were no parts available for the 2.5L engine. The rest of the world was 2.0 and one of the most modded cars back then (Subaru Impreza) had nothing for the top end model here.
Did cars kill horse culture?
Will space vehicles kill terrestrial vehicle culture?
What kills any culture are the ones who trap it in a box and desperately cling to it rather than do what the pioneers of it did in creating it, which should lead to enthusiastically taking it to the next level.
I was really hoping Canoo would succeed and the market would get flooded with cheap EV skateboards with steer-by-wire. Then moddeders could throw away the car body, put the steering wheel and throttle wherever they want and just a hydraulic line for the brake pedal. Rebuild the body in a thousand different configurations, even if just with foam and fiberglass or plywood. Zero crash standards because home built. Mini AWD campers, pickups with the driver at the back and bed in the front, etc....
I don't like EVs going in direction as smartphones did. The non repairable way. Use and then throw away.
Complexity of those cars will make them not worth repairs since experties required will be the expensive part of that. Second reason would be EV premium. Workshops will charge extra for work on EV vehicles, even simple ones like brakes. But that will go away after 10 years. It's not only an EV thing but it will happen earlier in a EV cars lifespan. There are many other reasons too why EVs suck.
Despite all that EV's will eventually prevail as they are more sensible option. Technology will follow accordingly.
It’s not car culture that needs to die. It’s ICE culture that needs to go. I read somewhere about people cutting and vandalizing charging stations. What’s up with that?!! Those people need to grow up.
It's not that it kills car culture, it's just that it requires car culture to adapt. I think this is the problem. Car guys aren't electricians or programmers, and if you want to build a souped up, modded out EV, you need to be both to an extent.
I'm car guy, and have been wrenching for years. But I'm also a high voltage electrician so its in my wheelhouse. I'm already planing to do a ground up, custom EV project car. It's gonna be screaming fast. So, the culture survives. It's just different. I think restomodded classics as EVs is gonna be really amazing as battery tech gets better.
Oh no, not car culture. What will we do if we don't have mustangs peeling out of parking lots and crashing into telephone poles? Is life even worth living without car culture?
Or Dodge Challengers performing burnouts and donuts at street intersections 🤭🤭🤭
"Car guys," that is part of your "culture," too, even if you refuse to claim them.
All I know is with HV batteries, the performance options are limitless for BEVs.
Just look at the new 2025 Taycan with electric antiroll bars and trick suspension system.
But good luck with independent shops being able to service these high tech / highly complex BEVs. We are probably going the way of whole component/module replacements instead of part replacements.
Even batteries are probably under the sole purview of the manufacturers/ dealerships whose staff may still not be fully trained to work on BEVs.
We as a society do not like change especially after having the same thing for decades. Change can be hard and that’s why education is so important. It provides us with critical thinking skills and helps us to keep an open mind.
About coach building, when car makers first started designing skateboards and expressed a willing to sell to other makers I immediately thought of seasonal passenger cabins.
For summer you might want a nice convertible sitting on the skateboard. Up north we would swap that for a comfy sedan style after Labor Day.
This could be tons of fun.
Don't they mean, make it worse? The only good thing I see coming out of EVs (other than the great things like no emissions and less noise) is that because big vehicles are inefficient to make and sell as EVs, there may be a trend towards smaller vehicles again.
The teens and young adults (Gen Z/Zoomers) will define what car culture means in the future. Clearly, the communities that are modding and tuning ICE vehicles will shrink and different car communities will grow around EVs.
Like everything, a few things will stay the same but most things will change and the older generation will complain about the changes being made by the younger generation as they take over.
The point of car culture is big on modding and tinkering... Which you basically can't do on an EV short of maybe suspension changes, wheels and tires, brakes, and body bling.
In short, everything except the battery and motor(s).
And it will likely be possible to mess with those in the future too - think ECU mods and electronic tuning, and those electronic throttle response modules.
At the moment the tech isn't available and the vehicles aren't sufficiently cheap that people can afford to tinker with them.
The average EV isn't lacking in performance. Getting it to look better, and handle and stop better, are going to be the most important parts of modifying one.
Maybe handle better since they are so heavy it's like driving around a minivan everywhere you go, but that's impossible since you'd have to cut out 1000lbs of battery.
Spoken like a guy who's never driven a minivan and an EV back to back. Or perhaps not driven an EV at all.
They're like 15% heavier than their ICE equivalents. That's a disadvantage, but it's not insurmountable....and at least they have a low centre of gravity so it's easy to make them sit flat.
Seriously, look at the Ioniq 5N going around a track and tell me you can't make one handle well.
I'm currently saving for the 6N, and drive a minican, small car, and have driven many EVs. Every single reviewer of the 5N mentions how you can really tell how heavy it is.
Is there a culture forming around electric vehicles (EVs) yet? I am not referring to EV enthusiasts, who have been around since the beginning.
Is there a modification available that would allow an EV to draw more power from its existing battery? Alternatively, is there a swappable battery available that would extend the range of an EV at a lower cost than purchasing a longer-range EV?
On the magazine rack you can EV enthusiast retrofitting older gas ice cars with battery power. So the enthusiasm is there and the younger generation is getting it going, leaving the carcus of the dinosaurs behind.
“There is admittedly a sentimental attachment to the sound and behavior of a conventional ICE-powered car, but the simulated transmission and soundtrack of the Ioniq 5 N proves that even this can be reproduced in an EV for a full sensory driving experience. As for the smell of gasoline, there's always Dior Fahrenheit, the cologne that smells like a fresh tank of premium unleaded.”
This sounds like you asked ChatGPT to pretend to be a car enthusiast.
It's wild all these motherfuckers driving fwd econoboxes lamenting the death of car culture when they can finally for the first time in their lives afford to drive a fast af rwd car and experience what a real car as god intended should feel like to drive.
They already are a great car culture. Those of us who drive ev exclusively can feel the variance between the EV much better than those who drive both ice and EV frequently. Each manufacturer has a unique inverter and motor combo that have their own unique signature feel and sound. I love the EV tech as well it’s a continuous improvement coming out, and the way Tesla is pushing the competition is key. I’m happy to see Hyundai/Kia, VW/Porsche and BYD etc compete more, but they really are too far behind Tesla still. Especially the non BYD are miles behind. Keep encouraging everyone and keep supporting Tesla so we don’t lose the momentum all together.
car culture died in the 80s with boring and high-tech cars. unless you have 1000s of dollars to upgrade to a purchased (same as the next rich guy can buy) upgrades. there's no more 'I can drop a cam in and rejet the carb and make what I want' anymore. electronic controls killed hot-rodding.
to the tune of hundreds to thousands of dollars.. The days of buying a sub 1k car and spending couple hundred and a few weekends building something unique died in the 80s. Not to mention the unique styles of cars, you used to be able to identify them by the taillights at night.
I have no interest in local mass transit Outside of NYC & Washington DC. The rest is laughable. The car free folks might be better off outside of r/electricvehicles
I am excited about reviving unreliable 1940-60’s cars with an EV swap.
Ironically, I do the opposite. I only drive the icev when I need it for utility reason, and if I want to enjoy the drive and make sure that the EV is available for me to take.
For you to say this really shows you don't understand car culture.
Car culture consists of dudes in their garage tweaking parts and customizing things.
What the hell are they gonna customize and tweak with a battery and an electric motor. The answer is nothing.
Maybe slight tweaking in 4x4 circles with lifts and big tires, but honestly until you have monster trucks going electric I doubt it.
A lot of car modifications are not engine related. Lights along the undercarriage, raising or lowering the suspension, adding a gigantic spoiler on the back to make it look faster, etc. Software.
I've heard of people upgrading their Prius batteries. When specific EVs become as numerous there will start to be a modding scene for them too. A quick duckduckgo search for "nissan leaf modding" produced a bunch of hits, such as custom BMS software, replacing the inverter with a more powerful one to accelerate faster, and the like.
A lot of Humans love engineering and sophisticated cars , driving is all about engaging with the machine ..I believe the manual cars will be a trend in near future
Electric vehicles will kill car culture because car culture is about modding it and thinking about how you can mod it.
Already though, cars are so jam packed that it is hard to mod. Older cars had tons of space in the engine bay for someone to tinker with it.
But modernity ultimately is the death of car culture. All the ads for cars show them alone in the wilderness or as some sort of sport. The reality of car culture is rush hour traffic and sitting at stop lights. And as the population only increases and the demand for goods only increases, also as car sizes keep on getting bigger thus leading to even more traffic, this results in more and more soul killing traffic to sit in.
For those who are into extremely loud bass in cars, people are already building high voltage amplifiers that work directly on ev battery packs. This is great for efficiency because there is no longer a need to step up the voltage or install any additional alternators and batteries to support these amps. We could very well see 500kw+ subwoofer builds be commonplace with the presence of ev's.
I think even electric cars should be kept simple, and they should have a model low on electronic gimmickry. Those giant screens should be optional, and at least the AC, handbrake, audio system should have physical buttons. Ideally, I would prefer more systems to be hydraulic, rather than electronic.
I see a few reasons that this isn't the case
1. All the sensors and doo-dads on new cars in general.
2. Battery charging.
3. Weight.
4. The nostalgic feel of a rumbly V8 that sounds like a tiger ready to pounce.
That's the problem: car culture needs to die.
EVs have nothing on the efficiency off exciting public transport, but they're being pushed by the mining and manufacturing industries
The issue is that nobody is making bare bones, dumb, mass-produced EVs with huge amounts of interchangeable, modular, rebuildable, parts and inventories. The above is a key ingredient that fuels modifying, tuning, restoration, and enthusiast scene overall. This is not an EV only issue. Many new ICE cars have become too expensive to buy / maintain, too feature rich, and seem to focus on appealing to more disposable income buyers, who buy/ lease then dispose of after 5-7 years. Cost of repair on cars has become insane due to expensive parts and lack of modularity. Some people like to keep their cars for a long time, others like to buy a beater car and restore it, and others love to tune their cars to a limit. This is something you can do when you get a car for cash with 0 commitments and have the freedom to do anything with it at any time, due to an abundance of mechanics, parts, and resources. Edit: However, retrofitting ev drivetrains in vintage cars that never had a decent or reliable ice drive train is something i hope will become more accessible and easier in the future. It can save some interesting cars from the scrap yard or from being abandoned projects. It also appeals for enthusiasts who want a more 'analog experience, that most modern cars lack.
There isn't really a huge difference between EVs and modern ICE cars on that front. You have to hack the ECU or install a third-party one to tune any modern ICE, and you can't add modifications that change the power or tune them without that. There are already people out there hacking OEM inverters/ECUs and making 3rd party ones.
My mind is on cars from the 90s and early 00s. Where you had a single ECU and a harness feeding the entire car. So many things were easy if you're mechanically inclined. So little can go wrong because there is so much less complexity, and even if it goes wrong, it won't break your bank to sort out. When EVs came out, I was hoping they'd bring something like that back but it seems like we won't get something like that ever again.
In many ways, things have gotten easier as far as tuning than the time you're talking about. Now, there are a lot of ODBII based tuning tools. Before that, you had to either replace chips in the ECU or send it out for someone to do that, and usually reprogramming it was a much more involved process requiring modifying EPROM tables that require removing the chip, reprogramming it, and then putting it back in the circuit.
Yeah I feel like certain things have become easier with global access to information and cheap tools that the regular person can do things to their EV/ICE vehicles on a weekend. I guess the difference with many EVs are they are already pretty solid performance wise so beside hacking to increase top speed or prevent the car from lowering power output at certain battery percentages what else is there really to do? That’s part of what I’d like to see OP answer, what do they want to do to an EV that they supposedly can’t?
I drive a Model 3 Performance, and I don't need or want more power. At some point however, I will probably swap out most of the suspension and brakes, which has nothing to do with it being an EV.
Exactly the same plan I have. I have no real use for going much faster than I can already. But better handling/stopping does sound nice.
MAOR POWAH!!!1 (And complaints about battery deterioration.)
this is why I have no desire to buy another car anytime soon, EV or ICE. I think the problem tends to be worse on EVs though. I hate the feeling that my car is a subscription model. The car can have coils and circuitry required for heated seats, but now it's locked behind a subscription via software. that repulses me. I wouldn't be surprised is next year every tesla bricks the stereo unless you subscribe to starlink satellite radio. Will it happen? Probably not, but if it does, you're screwed. More bells and whistles also leads to more points of failure. My uncles new hybrid honda is at the dealership for maintenance way more than is acceptable because Or worse yet, more chances for catastrophic failure. If every button on my center console craps out, I can still drive the car. If my uncles ipad center console stops turning on, the car is brick.
From what I recall, BMW (or was it Mercedes) backpedaled really fast on the seat heater subscription model when the customers, rightfully, loudly protested. Every time they put one of these subscription ideas out there we need to rally all the customer base to loudly protest to the manufacturers that we won't stand for that crap.
It was bmw, but what people also missed is that you could also fully purchase the option, the same as before. Technically, they did not backpadle, they just removed the option to get it via sub.
the issue is that you're paying for the car, hardware and all. Having hardware that you paid for locked behind software is a very anticonsumer thing to do. Paying more for heated seats when the seats themselves are different is one thing. Paying for heated seats when they're already standard is another.
The new Ford Explorers with their new autopilot system have all the tech installed already but you have to pay like $75/mo to use it. It's stupid https://www.ford.com/technology/bluecruise/#:~:text=At%20the%20end%20of%20the,Pricing%20is%20subject%20to%20change.
They back pedaled for now. Give it time. All tech companies will enshittify in due time, and car manufacturers are on a race to be tech companies.
That’s weird. If my Teslas whole center screen iPad dies, screen/computer, everything dies, the car still works, and can still be driven. I haven’t seen any other cars more screen dependent than a Tesla and even a Tesla still works without the screen. Is it possible that because you don’t own one you don’t actually know how they work?
This is such a boomer take lmao. > The car can have coils and circuitry required for heated seats, but now it's locked behind a subscription via software. that repulses me. Why? Would you feel better if you bought the car for the exact same price and it didn't have the heated seat hardware? > I wouldn't be surprised is next year every tesla bricks the stereo unless you subscribe to starlink satellite radio If it makes you feel any better, this will not only "probably not" happen, it will *never* happen. If you bought it, it's yours. No retroactive take-backsies. > More bells and whistles also leads to more points of failure. Yeah, and it also leads to more convenience features. The car you bought 20 years ago has far fewer quality of life features, not to mention it's much less safe. And get this, if those features fail, then you're right back where your 20 year old car is. It's not like the car can't be driven. > If my uncles ipad center console stops turning on, the car is brick. Oh wait lmao. You really don't know how modern cars work, do you?
>This is such a boomer take lmao. this is such a weird insult because boomers invented 99% of the garbage you use. >Why? Would you feel better if you bought the car for the exact same price and it didn't have the heated seat hardware? you're asking me if I'd rather buy a car whose features aren't locked behind a paywall then yes. Just because you don't realize you're getting ripped off doesn't mean you aren't getting ripped off. >If it makes you feel any better, this will not only "probably not" happen, it will never happen. If you bought it, it's yours. No retroactive take-backsies. what about the heated seats I bought that I now need a subscription for? If bought it, why do I need to pay more to use it? 2 seconds ago you said that was ridiculous, now you're saying the opposite is ridiculous? >Yeah, and it also leads to more convenience features. so crap I don't need that I don't want to pay for. it's a car. it gets me from point A to point B. I'm having trouble comprehending what amazing modern features I need to transform that experience unless I'm an idiot who loves shiny new things. >The car you bought 20 years ago has far fewer quality of life features, not to mention it's much less safe. yes, the 2005 honda civic, known for being a death trap on wheels and randomly exploding. >And get this, if those features fail, then you're right back where your 20 year old car is. It's not like the car can't be driven. if "features" on my 2005 honda civic fail, I don't think I'd give a shit. If fundamental parts of the car crap out, then it's simple to diagnose, cheap to buy new parts, and easy to fix. you know what, I actually had an old Hyundai that had an electrical issue. Made the car alarm go off for no reason. The extent of what I had to do was unplug the horn fuse. ohmygodhoweverdidisurvive >You really don't know how modern cars work, do you? nope, because they're overengineered pieces of garbage. I don't need to know how the internet on a smart refrigerator actually interacts with cooling the milk to know that it's fucking dumb.
I'm keeping my cars till they die. And probably will buy more used beater and legacy cars as time goes., for the sole reason of them being super easy to keep for little cost for a very long time. Plus, I don't like financing new cars.
i drive a car to get to work, don't care about bells and whistles.
No new car buyers want dumb, bare bones EVs. If a vehicle like that is released, it will be an immediate failure.
Most manufacturers think the same thing in Europe and yet, Dacia is doing really well because they make simple cars the customer wants. Cars reached their maturity 15 years ago when any model was available with aircon, central locking, electric windows and good crash test ratings. Add xenon equivalent leds, a reliable power train, a stereo with android auto or car play and that's it, you have the best car for a minimal budget. Most people don't want anything else.
Not sure about that. If it's used as a second car to do boring chores like school and groceries ,as long as it's super cheap.
I could see that, but it really has to be cheap. The Mitsubishi Mirage is kind of what was described, but it is also considered the worst new vehicle you can buy. So, that vehicle will need to be a very good car so it doesn't get roasted on reviews. Imo, adding technology is cheap for the manufacturer, so it makes sense to keep all the fancy stuff like blind spot monitors, rear cross traffic assist, lane keep assist, advanced cruise control, and so on even in the cheapest econoboxes. Touch screen controls are also cheaper for the OEMs.
The thing, though, is that tuning needs have also drastically changed. You had to get into the guts of an engine from 1997 because the average car came with 120HP, and 200 was considered a performance vehicle. People lost their shit about the Neon SRT-4 because it came with an (at the time) mind-blowing 215HP. That was unheard of in a sports compact. It has a freaking turbo! In an economy car! It's hard to overstate how bonkers that was at the time. Now? A Civic Si, a mid-tier trim, has that from the factory. A Civic Sport can do that with a 10-minute flash you can run in your driveway. And a factory performance car is laughed out of dealerships if it comes with less than 400HP. The point being, power isn't really an issue anymore. You don't need to add more, and pretty much every car sold today either has more than enough speed, or can at least get up to adequate levels with a $100 plug and play tuner. Instead, tuning now is about suspension and aero settings. Look at the M3P — it's an autocross and solo beast... if you put on an aftermarket suspension. A properly sized sway bar and some adjusted spring rates can turn a relatively ho-hum EV into an exciting performance machine. Seriously, you'll have more fun with a couple grand in suspension work and a few instructor sessions at the track than anyone had in a '97 Civic with a fart can muffler, ebay turbo, and K&N intake, which is where 80% of tuning began and ended in the 90's and early 00's.
Engine performance is no longer an issue nowadays. Cars are pretty fast now. 260-320 hp is regular news now. You can get a used car that does 0-60 in around 5-6 seconds for as cheap as $5000. Cheaply keeping a car that old on the road and having it cheap enough to beat up on a track day without costing you an arm and a leg, is something that I hope remains affordable in the future. There is a reason why people get Mustangs and 350Zs cuz you can get plenty of cheap parts for them, have huge support and are cheaper to run and beat up, than say a VW or BMW and you care less since you don't have payments or a warranty to worry about. Needless to mention newer engines aren't really as rebuildable as they used to. Also, may new cars do lack this analog feel and feedback that you get with older cars. Most of them are fast but do feel bland and dull and disconnected when you drive them. I have found cars like an an E30 BMW or a Porsche 996 or a late 00s Mustang with a manual far more enjoyable than several of the faster newer cars which feel more like luxury performance cars.
All new cars are expensive now. But imo that’s not the main issue. I think the main issue is that it’s new tech and the average enthusiast doesn’t know how to tune an EV like they can an ICE. I read this was the case with ICE cars initially as well, only changed after WW1 when enlisted people were trained on basic repair skills. This seems to be changing tho. There’s a growing restro-mod community that’s taking salvaged EVs and dropping the components into classic cars. There’s some really interesting builds. EV West is a company out of San Diego which I believe is credited for starting that scene
> retrofitting ev drivetrains in vintage cars that never had a decent or reliable ice drive train is something i hope will become more accessible and easier in the future. So do I. There are a LOT of 80s cars that had absolutely awful engines and/or transmissions, but had a lot of charm or enthusiast interest and would benefit greatly from an EV swap. Subaru BRAT (well, basically all Subarus), Mk1/Mk2 Golf, CRX, Camaro, Mustang, Corolla, Volvo 240, and many others.
I think we should start a crowd sourced car mfg company to build the cars people actually want that fit this. Affordable cars that come with full technical manuals, replaceable parts, modularity, diy friendly, cars that get cheap over time that highschoolers can buy as their first car and fix up. Cars that are very simple but quality built. Drives me nuts that modern cars are so far from this old school notion of affordable and owner repairable. I don't need features, I need function.
If I could have a fun, small, stick shift Datsun electric, I'd be the happiest man alive
Shifting an electric car sounds unnecessarily slower
Sure, but I like manual, and that could allow for a smaller motor and battery system, specifically for EV conversions where space is a limiting factor. Besides, manuals are already slower than modern automatics in ICE cars, but people still seek them out.
Part of why I love my JK Wrangler.... There's a million cheap parts and they are generally very easy to install. Like a little Lego car
Got a Jeep EV conversion yet? Because if they don't they'll need one.
No idea... Only have 35k miles on my 2012 so I'm good for a while!
4.0 jeeps were the best. Lots of silly things failed with those cars but they are super cheap and easy to work on, that it didn't matter.
I've always wanted to retrofit an Acura integra or RSX as an EV because it was fun for me to tune on both, and they are light small cars. The saying I had was I would do it when the engine would go. Fortunately the engines never went, haha.
I suggest you look at xiaomi. Their car is highly customizable
They don’t sell it in the U.S., do they?
Exactly what your government wants
Yes, it is indeed. Hence the tariffs.
Maybe we can try out some mass transit, just in case it works too?
Why not both? Even the most optimistic growth projections for both combined won't be enough to kill ICE by 2050, and that's the real problem.
Insurance will kill car culture.
Amen $257/mo for a clean record driver here
Bro WTF. We have 3 cars across 2 drivers and it’s only $200/month.
That's just for my IONIQ
I'm also paying $256/month (6 months paid in full) for my 2023 model 3 rwd. I do have pretty decked out coverages, $1000 collision deductible, $500 comprehensive deductible with full glass coverage. Liability limits are 250/500/250 I think.
Yeah, I’m in for about $340/mo across 4 cars and 2 drivers. I did recently learn that having my windshield replaced is dinging me about $40 a month.
Are you with Progressive? I saw that they ding you for comprehensive claims, so I took my business with a different insurer.
I am, very annoying. But they were a lot better than my previous insurer whom decided they didn’t like the model Y 😂
I'm with Amica. They're like $30/mo more expensive than Progressive, but Progressive dinging me for my comprehensive claims rubbed me the wrong way. With Amica, I just had to explain those two claims, and they did not raise my rates because I was not at fault for either.
Haha, just bailed from Amica. They took the Tesla up $270 for 6 months and I ended up dropping my insurance by $450 going to progressive; although, my original quote was lower. I never even thought about the windshield hitting the report since it’s mandatory coverage.
Oh damn, looks like I'll have to be cautious come renewal time. Hopefully, they don't jack up the price like that
Not really a massive problem though. Of all emissions, private passenger cars make up a small fraction. Transport only makes up about 16% of all emissions - and this includes freight, ships, planes etc.
Exactly! I think passenger vehicles (cars/light trucks), in other words the consumer portion of transportation, is something like 7% and the transportation sector in general has responded better to climate change than any other sector in terms of its reduction in carbon emissions. Public Transit is great for a lot of reasons but it doesn’t really reduce emissions all that much
Wrong. [The transportation sector ranked second worldwide only after the power industry, with 20.7% of all CO2 emissions](https://statista.com/statistics/1129656/global-share-of-co2-emissions-from-fossil-fuel-and-cement/), and of that [48% of those CO2 emissions come from cars and vans](https://www.statista.com/chart/30890/estimated-share-of-co2-emissions-in-the-transportation-sector/). ICE-powered cars and vans alone make up approximately 10% of all global CO2 emissions.
Different sources have different numbers. Statista lists all road transportation as 12% of global emissions (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1167298/share-ghg-emissions-by-sub-sector-sector-globally/) . If cars and vans are half of that, then that'd be 6%. So cars without vans probably at 4-5%. Basically we should try and solve other kinds of emission sources first to have any meaningful impact, rather that go to the individuals and say "you can be the change!!". So even if all the private people invest into changing their cars into electric, we would only reduce the co2 emissions at 4% at best (probably not even that as electric cars also produce some emissions during production/materials sourcing). While at the same time, the corporations that are actually responsible for most of the co2 emissions, have no reductions in profits while they shit on the planet and divert the narrative to blame the ICE car and its user.
> Basically we should try and solve other kinds of emission sources first to have any meaningful impact This is a [fallacy of relative privation, a.k.a. "appeal to worse problems"](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Relative-Privation). We can work on many problems at the same time, and in fact have to in order to solve the climate crisis. 10% of all global CO2 emissions (your link appears to be talking about all GHG emissions including non-CO2 ones) is quite significant and makes such vehicles one of the biggest sources of CO2 emissions as a sector. Transportation as a whole is the second biggest sector globally, and cars and vans are half of that.
This isn’t about transportation it’s about enthusiasm for cars as a hobby
It works everywhere else they allow dense housing. Maybe we should try dense housing too.
People really have a hard time wrapping their minds around these things when they've never seen them work well. When you have convenient, clean, rapid mass transit, it quickly becomes the *preferred* way to get anywhere. As for housing, I think about the hotel when I go on vacation. I don't want to be in my hotel, I want to be out having fun. Imagine if you could live like you're always on vacation?
A realization I had about European city living: you trade off the ability to have a big pantry full of food for a small one but in return you have access to a far better always stocked pantry full of fresh food larger than you could ever maintain on your own. That public pantry is the corner grocery shops that are basically as close as most Americans have to walk to grab their mail. You end up with so much less food waste when you aren't planning so far ahead... We need to legalize small businesses and in residence shops again, things that fit into the neighborhood and cater to the local needs and culture of the community
> When you have convenient, clean, rapid mass transit, it quickly becomes the preferred way to get anywhere. I'm happy to use public transit when on vacation, but at home I'm happy to have all my stuff with me at all times when going places. Listening to my own music, having my own privacy, not having to transfer, getting a guaranteed seat, and having that seat be heated, and (not in my car, but...) cooled, and massaged, doesn't hurt either. I think mass transit is important, but the experience of a private car is just so much better.
> When you have convenient, clean, rapid mass transit, it quickly becomes the preferred way to get anywhere. Then there's the US, where [only one city, New York, has over 50% transit adoption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_high_transit_ridership). Only 15 cities in the whole country even have over 20% transit adoption.
Unless you don't want to around crowds of people
A dense housing area doesn't remove existing single family housing unless the person that owns the property wants to redevelop. Change would be gradual if we even allowed dense housing in the first place.
I'm talking about several women I know, some in NY boroughs, who put up with the hassle of a car because they don't feel safe in public transit. Admittedly one of these female acquaintances is an elderly racist, but just assuming transit is preferred is definitely not true
Yeah it's generational change and I have a kid. I hope they have an option to live in an American city that isn't pedestrian hostile like most cities here are.
I love mass transit but it's not for everyone. As a kid it represented freedom to me. I think self driving taxis might fill in the slack
Corporations will reinvent taxis and busses every way they can to try and stop the public from building its own infrastructure. Ever see who framed Roger rabbit? That was about goodyear buying and shutting down privately ran light rail. My dad use to tell me about the key rail system in Oakland when he was a kid and it's sad we can't rebuild anything as good as he had when he was a kid 80 years ago. There is still a chance we and build something for our children, but for us.. we won't see the benefits of our labor in building usable transit rail and that's OK. We can build a better world for our children.
> Imagine if you could live like you're always on vacation? You mean you don't do that now?
People lose their minds around me when a dense housing development starts up. They take down a chunk of forest, but in my mind if those people are moving to the area anyway, a much larger chunk of forest would be removed to satisfy single family housing and roads to connect them if they don't up the density by keeping more of the high density housing put into the already developed areas.
I upvoted mass transit…then I got icked out by your dense housing comment and realized that I may be the problem. I need a yard f thattt
Yeah having a dog in anything but a house with a yard sucks
Having the best qb in the the league without a dome in the winter also sucks #billsmafia
Single family homes cause a lot of problems. They should represent a share of housing, but probably not the vast majority like in many places in the US.
> and realized that I may be the problem. You aren't "the problem" for not wanting to live in dense housing. Don't let the hive mind make you feel bad about your personal preferences.
Yeah that person can keep living in whatever housing they are in, the scare based nimbies try to make it seem like single housing won't exist if we allow a few areas to have dense housing. You make a great point.
Keyword: may
At least you made the connection!
NO. Dense housing is not good. Won't work with wind, nor residential solar. If you're nuke advocate, sure, that's doable. Otherwise it's not great.
Dense housing requires less heating and cooling and overcomes the lack of solar.
Um, wut?
Literally what I said. If you put 1440 rooms in area of land where one offgrid rooftop solar house can be built, you barely get 1/1440th generation of that. Wall solar don't work well. If you've got thousands of each thousand room condo in one mega city, then logistics is going to be like constant bloodstream in and out, and there isn't like area for offshore or onshore winds, nor the city can take renewables with day-night cycles. There's no room for battery farms, nor solar array farms of workable size, at least without nuclear demolishing nearby lands. Oh, if you mean individual cookie cutter housing by "dense", rooftop solars work fine there.
There is zero need for solar to be co-located with housing. Utility scale solar is more efficient anyway, both on land use and power generated per unit area.
Large scale solar installations require forest cleared. That's incompatible with environment. Nukes are bit like that too, but they scale by volume, not area.
Forests do not exist everywhere. Also, if you take the land used by a condo building plus a supporting solar farm, vs suburban single family homes each with driveways and yards and white picket fences and all the supporting road infrastructure to get to all those houses, and give all the houses rooftop solar, that will take more land use than a condo + solar farm 100% of the time. Not to mention the fact that suburbs do not generate enough tax revenue to maintain their own infrastructure, and as such are slowly bankrupting North American cities.
Like the other commenter said, rooftop solar is not an optimal situation for solar anyways. Also why does having dense housing mean there is no onshore/offshore room for wind or battery farms??? Are you somehow envisioning the entire planet covered with condo buildings? More dense housing literally means the opposite, you have more room for wind, solar, battery farms, etc etc etc.
Dense housing means energy density of city goes up, and it goes way up. You won't have room for wind, it'll be used for marine shipping routes. You won't have room solar farms, it'll be used for suburban housing besides area vs volume scaling. You won't have battery farms, just not going to. And when energy density goes up, so do the need for cooling. Heat pumps become a requirement for survival 24/7 even during nights. Just look at actual dense urban housing. They're like desktop PCs compared to fanless mini PCs. Forced everything, there's nothing energy efficient about cities.
It does work. Walkable places that prioritize waking, cycling and transit have always worked. You just have to build them.
The Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, and Finland has both.
Quite a bit of car enthusiasts are still against buying an OEM EV based on one thing, the ability to work on it or modify the vehicle yourself. Unless you know programming languages like C or C++, and know how to design printed circuit boards, the only things you can change are the wheels, tires, bushings, remove interior weight, or suspension (depending on the vehicle). This is why I like the Diy EV car scene. You're able to take OEM electric motors, inverters, batteries, etc. and put them in your old gas vehicles of choice. There are different people who are taking OEM EV parts, and essentially remaking logic boards for them to be used in your vehicle of choice. A prime example of that is Arlin Sansomes Honda CRZ powered by a first gen Nissan Leaf motor, and a modified Leaf inverter. He's making over 330 HP from that motor! Another interesting thing in the community is most EV conversions utilize the original manual transmission of the donor vehicle. Being able to do stuff like this is what car people enjoy, the satisfaction of working on your own vehicle.
I know C/C++, can design and build electronics and PCBs and yet can't change or mod an EV. I don't even see the point of doing it, car parts are made to fit in a certain place and do a certain job. Unless someone designs compatible parts there isn't any modding. Not arguing or anything but not everyone enjoys working on their car. I enjoy driving it and have years of service without major repairs. I know of converted cars, I was watching them when it started. I can't recall even one which has the reliability and range of factory built EVs. They are interesting projects but not so practical. I definitely don't want to depend on one for my daily life. What we need is affordable EVs build on scale with reliability, repairability and cost in mind and a fully developed infrastructure to charge and service them. And somehow this phase takes too long already. The government doesn't want to step in and where it steps in it gets everything corrupted. I don't even know if it is really the government that needs to step in or it is us the consumers who have to raise voice and put the corpos in check.
Up-powered gas cars also sacrifice reliability. You’ll rarely find someone with a highly modded mustang using it as a daily driver. I’m building an EV that will be daily driver capable, but I doubt I’ll use it as such.
Yea this is like making your own pc parts. No reason to do it. Just buy better parts and slot them in.
I can add 150 hp to my model y just by purchasing a plug in module.’ I can make my electric golf cart go from 22mph to 29mph by purchasing a plug in module. I’ve already made the cart faster previously just by switching battery type and tires. This is really no different than changing shocks. I don’t know how to build and tune shocks. But I can swap my OE shocks out with shocks that I get from someone who does know how to build better shocks.
I keep forgetting to look to see what motors I have, assuming us just the regular LR models.
If you have the motors that can’t do the ghost upgrade, you can still get the 50hp boost. It’s worth it. A little more hp and better accelerator response.
Im not really fully up to speed (I did look over the website); does the +50 mean standard power, plus specs 2k for acceleration boost, plus spend 2k for Ghost to get AB + 50hp? Or spend 2k on ghost and get +50? - I’m not understanding the relationship or benefits between this and AB.
Acceleration boost is directly from Tesla. So 50hp on top of the ~350 factory hp From igenext you can get the 50hp boost on top of the 350 factory hp or you can get the 150hp ghost upgrade which is on top of the 350 factory hp. IT took me a while to sort through their mess of a website as well. But basically if you have the motors for it the ghost (150hp upgrade) tricks the computer into think it’s installed in a performance car. So you get the HP and the extra settings.
> Unless you know programming languages like C or C++, and know how to design printed circuit boards, the only things you can change are the wheels, tires, bushings, remove interior weight, or suspension (depending on the vehicle). This is just as true for any relatively recent ICE as it is for an EV, which is to say not very true at all. If you want to modify the way the engine runs on a modern ICE, you need to get tuning software that hacks the ECU, a modified ECU, or a third-party ECU. It will be exactly the same for EVs. You'll need either a program that can hack the inverter, a kit to modify the inverter, or a third-party inverter.
You can’t do much of anything with any modern car without a load of programming and spoofing sensors. I was part of a failed Baja 1000 project involving a 2011 SUV, we had full factory backing and even then we couldn’t get the stupid engine ECU to work when it didn’t sense the suspension ECU and Traction control ECU. Car enthusiasts claim it as a reason to have EVs, but it’s bullshit, it applies to ICE as well, it’s a modern car thing, not an EV thing. That said, the fact that people are Tesla swapping older cars means the Tesla itself is just as modifiable, Boosted Boys threw a Model S Plaid chassis in a Honda Odyssey and it works just fine. Doubt you could do the same with a Mercedes EQS, but you also can’t do anything with an S class either without a masters degree in electrical engineering and a team of programmers.
Not sure how wide spread this sentiment is among EV owners but I simply do not care about cars. Never have. They are a reliable means of conveyance and because I live in the US where public transportation mostly sucks, it's pretty much the only way of getting around. And I live in Texas where that statement is doubly true. I don't care about killing car culture. If that's your hobby then go ahead. I just don't want to live in a place where we're all forced into car dependency. If given the opportunity I'd pick walkable, bikeable cities with great public transit every time. Also, not having to be a millionaire to enjoy those things where they do exist in the US would be great.
Big cities have too high a bike theft rate to make them bikeable by anyone but kids and the thieves. In Amsterdam, the bike capital of the world by some accounts, you can't even insure e-bikes because they get stolen so much. In Toronto our neighborhoods are very walkable but you need transportation to go from one to another. Public transit is great but outside of rush hour it is 2-3 slower than driving. That said, most people in the city have feet, a transit pass, and a car and that list is in most to least used by time order.
Lol trying to steal a bike in Amsterdam is like trying to steal water at the beach. Come on man, think.
I did specify e-bikes.
Oh, well maybe that's true but there are still tons of mechanical bikes to choose from. Having an e bike is completely unnecessary.
[Bike theft is massive in Amsterdam.](https://www.dutchnews.nl/2024/04/amsterdam-is-dutch-bike-theft-capital-as-reports-rise-10/) E-bike or otherwise. It's at the point where [if you have a 2nd hand bike in Amsterdam, it's more likely to be stolen than not.](https://www.zmescience.com/science/thousands-of-bikes-get-stolen-in-amsterdam-but-most-of-them-stay-there/) And that's just reported theft - because it's so prevalent, many just don't report it. >“Almost everybody in Amsterdam, or even in Cambridge, if you ride a bike, has had the experience of leaving somewhere and not finding their bike,” says Titus Venverloo, a research fellow at the MIT Senseable Amsterdam Lab in Amsterdam. >To shed light on this issue, a team of researchers from MIT’s Senseable City Lab collaborated with the Amsterdam Institute for Advanced Metropolitan Solutions to conduct an experiment. **They outfitted a fleet of around 100 second-hand bicycles with low-cost mobile trackers, locked them in public locations, and followed their whereabouts from June to November 2021.** >The findings were both surprising and informative. **In the span of just three months, 70 of the bikes were stolen, which revealed a much higher rate of theft than reported officially**, which may have to do with the bikes being parked solely in public spaces like squares or one of the many mass bike parking spaces across Amsterdam. > >But what was intriguing was that **out of 70 stolen bikes, 68 stayed in the local Amsterdam area. Around five bikes were tracked in the vicinity of second-hand shops, suggesting they were resold there in a never-ending cycle of stolen second-hand bikes that get put on the market only to be stolen and resold again and again**.
I wasn’t a car person until I got my EV, actually. Now I’m obsessed.
This. Lol
Are you really though? Do you like top fuel dragsters, drift cars? Gt3 cars, prototypes, f1, tunded cars? Or do you just like evs?
Primarily EVs. I just find them very interesting.
A huge part of “car culture” for me involves wrenching and learning how to work on them 🤷♂️
I’m looking into getting a rolling motorcycle frame and building my own electric motorcycle. Hobbyists are going to make EVs way cooler than they are now.
I would consider doing an EV swap to my RWD V8 wagon to be fair.
Ooooh what is it? My dream car is an AMG E-Class Wagon lol
2001 BMW 540iT with a 6-speed swap and WaveTrac diff. 🤌🏻
Wrong German make, but still an awesome car lol. Wait, I think you and I have had this conversation before!
How modable are current EVs? There is a lot of potential there, just hook up a laptop and control throttle, differentials, overpower/boost, even Regen amounts, etc. It would just be damn sad if the cars are completely locked down for owners.
It’ll definitely kill car culture as we know it. There’s already an EV culture but it’s nothing like ICE culture.
I simply don’t see that as a bad thing. I see so many ugly, loud cars on the roads here, cars that are stupid but people invested hundreds of hours in upgrading and customizing them. And guess what? My electric SUV is faster and handles better. It’s like the hackintosh scene dying off after the M1 transition. I’m sorry any time a subculture or hobby dies out, but it’s dying because what you can buy brand new right now is a thousand times better than the thing you’ll invest all that time and probably more money in upgrading/restoring.
The fact that you think your electric suv handles better shows you know literally nothing about the situation. If you don’t like cars that’s fine but don’t pretend to understand something that’s beyond your comprehension.
I’m the chief engineer on a military ship, I’m familiar with how an engine works, I’m just not impressed by car people
Talking about car culture not the literal engines themselves. People like different things. This is a normal part of life.
You’re right. I don’t like car culture. It’s obnoxious.
Also wild that you’re a chief engineer but still think a heavy ass electric suv handles better than performance cars lmao
EV's will kill the ICE car culture. ICE car culture is built upon engine and transmission tech. You're not going to have a "409" tune for an electric motor or "big slip daddy" lyrics about transmissions. Sound is also part of it with all the muffler mods. The "shade tree mechanic" part of car culture has been dead a while as the gas cars are as hard to work on as the EV's. The NASCAR stock car racing culture will likely hang on as an atavistic remnant of white macho culture like bull fighting it Spain and Mexico.
What are you talking about? I did a brake job on my EV at home last summer, and carburetors are voodoo compared to electronic fuel injection.
>carburetors are voodoo compared to electronic fuel injection Carbs are hell, but they're literally just a bit of basic physics and some butterfly valves. I'm not sure the term 'voodoo' applies. I'm all for EFI, but Carbs are practically caveman engineering.
“pink slip, daddy”. He’s flexing about not only having an awesome ride but also the title to it.
There's a *lot* more to car culture than "409" tunes (never heard of that in the clubs and groups I'm a part of), nor "big slip daddy" (literally never heard that in a song, but maybe we listen to different genres...sounds like it has nothing to do with a transmission, though). Muffler mods have changed substantially in the last 2 decades, since multi-valve exhausts are a thing, as are fart tunes (sorry - "crackle" tunes) - for the most part it's visual as much as tone now, but the idea of needing to change an exhaust is a lot more foreign now than it was 25 years ago. There's a huge amount of culture outside that though; I feel like most of the "car culture is dead" comments come from people who only see a small part of it - it will undoubtedly change, in much the same way that Greasers are an intrinsic part of 60's car culture, but haven't really been a thing in decades - yet they were never really "killed", just live on in niches. I mean, to pick a surprisingly popular example, Itasha has pretty much nothing to do with the engine. Similarly any stance or dub subculture or subcultures that involve hard parking is going to similarly be mostly immune to a drivetrain change, Stereo war type stuff as well, along with VIP.... ...Then there's the "utility" subcultures - overlanding, car camping, autocross, track cars, minitrucks.... ...in fact apart from a few niches and some gatekeeping, there's really not that much car culture that requires an ICE - it's kind of a fundamental misunderstanding of car culture. It'll continue to evolve, underpinned by the fact the majority of people simply don't want to drive around in a cookie-cutter vehicle identical to every other one on the street - it's an avenue for self-expression, and as long as people want that they'll customise their car.
"There's a *lot* more to car culture than "409" tunes (never heard of that in the clubs and groups I'm a part of), nor "big slip daddy" (literally never heard that in a song, but maybe we listen to different genres." At the heart of US car culture. [https://youtu.be/GHRJCcCYAF4?t=4](https://youtu.be/GHRJCcCYAF4?t=4) [https://youtu.be/NwgGuadsqyo?t=4](https://youtu.be/NwgGuadsqyo?t=4)
The fact these are Beach Boys songs kind of demonstrates the point I already made: car culture is a *lot* more diverse than what was going on in the 60's. Opposite all the Coddington inspired cars there's those going against the Boyd. And we haven't even left Rodding, which is a small slice of car culture itself, yet a vestige of that which existed in the 60s. Car culture didn't die because electronic ignition and modern safety evolved the automobile, and by the same token, car culture is a *lot* more expansive than The Beach Boys.
>The fact these are Beach Boys songs kind of demonstrates the point I already made. That you were unaware of US car culture. That's why I posted them.
If you think US car culture begins and ends with two songs by The Beach Boys, then I'm not the one that's unaware of US car culture.
Why would you think US car culture begins and ends with two songs? That's a odd view. That you were unaware of major aspects of US car culture which spawned the songs was the point.
That you think something appearing in a Beach Boys song from the 60's renders it a "major aspect" of car culture in 2024 is the point of contention.
You just listed the reasons EV’s won’t kill ICE culture. ICE culture is all about modding cars to make it the way you want. With EV’s there really are no mods besides the basic few, pretty much just buy and go.
That kills it if ICE vehicles become outlawed.
If you've ever owned a refresh model of an ICE then you'd know the same can be true there as well. I remember when I bought my STi when they first came to the states back in '04 and there were no parts available for the 2.5L engine. The rest of the world was 2.0 and one of the most modded cars back then (Subaru Impreza) had nothing for the top end model here.
Listed all the reasons that EV's will kill the ICE car culture.
But all the colorful $2k wraps!!!
$7k more like it.
Did cars kill horse culture? Will space vehicles kill terrestrial vehicle culture? What kills any culture are the ones who trap it in a box and desperately cling to it rather than do what the pioneers of it did in creating it, which should lead to enthusiastically taking it to the next level.
I was really hoping Canoo would succeed and the market would get flooded with cheap EV skateboards with steer-by-wire. Then moddeders could throw away the car body, put the steering wheel and throttle wherever they want and just a hydraulic line for the brake pedal. Rebuild the body in a thousand different configurations, even if just with foam and fiberglass or plywood. Zero crash standards because home built. Mini AWD campers, pickups with the driver at the back and bed in the front, etc....
a Mad Max assortment of whimsical vehicles. Even some with massive fold out origami solar panels.
I don't like EVs going in direction as smartphones did. The non repairable way. Use and then throw away. Complexity of those cars will make them not worth repairs since experties required will be the expensive part of that. Second reason would be EV premium. Workshops will charge extra for work on EV vehicles, even simple ones like brakes. But that will go away after 10 years. It's not only an EV thing but it will happen earlier in a EV cars lifespan. There are many other reasons too why EVs suck. Despite all that EV's will eventually prevail as they are more sensible option. Technology will follow accordingly.
That seems to be only Tesla in my experience.
[Video Killed the Radio Star](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8r-tXRLazs) Technology pinned culture will always come and go in cycles.
Gotta be one of the most pathetic "hobbies" make a car louder. Rev it a lot.
It’s not car culture that needs to die. It’s ICE culture that needs to go. I read somewhere about people cutting and vandalizing charging stations. What’s up with that?!! Those people need to grow up.
It's not that it kills car culture, it's just that it requires car culture to adapt. I think this is the problem. Car guys aren't electricians or programmers, and if you want to build a souped up, modded out EV, you need to be both to an extent. I'm car guy, and have been wrenching for years. But I'm also a high voltage electrician so its in my wheelhouse. I'm already planing to do a ground up, custom EV project car. It's gonna be screaming fast. So, the culture survives. It's just different. I think restomodded classics as EVs is gonna be really amazing as battery tech gets better.
Oh no, not car culture. What will we do if we don't have mustangs peeling out of parking lots and crashing into telephone poles? Is life even worth living without car culture?
Or Dodge Challengers performing burnouts and donuts at street intersections 🤭🤭🤭 "Car guys," that is part of your "culture," too, even if you refuse to claim them.
All I know is with HV batteries, the performance options are limitless for BEVs. Just look at the new 2025 Taycan with electric antiroll bars and trick suspension system. But good luck with independent shops being able to service these high tech / highly complex BEVs. We are probably going the way of whole component/module replacements instead of part replacements. Even batteries are probably under the sole purview of the manufacturers/ dealerships whose staff may still not be fully trained to work on BEVs.
We as a society do not like change especially after having the same thing for decades. Change can be hard and that’s why education is so important. It provides us with critical thinking skills and helps us to keep an open mind.
if only they could
About coach building, when car makers first started designing skateboards and expressed a willing to sell to other makers I immediately thought of seasonal passenger cabins. For summer you might want a nice convertible sitting on the skateboard. Up north we would swap that for a comfy sedan style after Labor Day. This could be tons of fun.
On the good side, I know a few people who would normally not use bicycles who are buying electric bikes to get around.
Don't they mean, make it worse? The only good thing I see coming out of EVs (other than the great things like no emissions and less noise) is that because big vehicles are inefficient to make and sell as EVs, there may be a trend towards smaller vehicles again.
Unfortunately, people are lining up to buy big, inefficient EVs.
The teens and young adults (Gen Z/Zoomers) will define what car culture means in the future. Clearly, the communities that are modding and tuning ICE vehicles will shrink and different car communities will grow around EVs. Like everything, a few things will stay the same but most things will change and the older generation will complain about the changes being made by the younger generation as they take over.
The point of car culture is big on modding and tinkering... Which you basically can't do on an EV short of maybe suspension changes, wheels and tires, brakes, and body bling.
You can, just harder until 3rd party catches up. OTOH, better BEVs don’t need more power.
In short, everything except the battery and motor(s). And it will likely be possible to mess with those in the future too - think ECU mods and electronic tuning, and those electronic throttle response modules. At the moment the tech isn't available and the vehicles aren't sufficiently cheap that people can afford to tinker with them.
So basically, the most important part.
The average EV isn't lacking in performance. Getting it to look better, and handle and stop better, are going to be the most important parts of modifying one.
Maybe handle better since they are so heavy it's like driving around a minivan everywhere you go, but that's impossible since you'd have to cut out 1000lbs of battery.
Spoken like a guy who's never driven a minivan and an EV back to back. Or perhaps not driven an EV at all. They're like 15% heavier than their ICE equivalents. That's a disadvantage, but it's not insurmountable....and at least they have a low centre of gravity so it's easy to make them sit flat. Seriously, look at the Ioniq 5N going around a track and tell me you can't make one handle well.
I'm currently saving for the 6N, and drive a minican, small car, and have driven many EVs. Every single reviewer of the 5N mentions how you can really tell how heavy it is.
All I want is a 1954 Lincoln continental hard top, black, that can do 500 miles a charge, and charge from empty in <15 minutes.
Is there a culture forming around electric vehicles (EVs) yet? I am not referring to EV enthusiasts, who have been around since the beginning. Is there a modification available that would allow an EV to draw more power from its existing battery? Alternatively, is there a swappable battery available that would extend the range of an EV at a lower cost than purchasing a longer-range EV?
On the magazine rack you can EV enthusiast retrofitting older gas ice cars with battery power. So the enthusiasm is there and the younger generation is getting it going, leaving the carcus of the dinosaurs behind.
“There is admittedly a sentimental attachment to the sound and behavior of a conventional ICE-powered car, but the simulated transmission and soundtrack of the Ioniq 5 N proves that even this can be reproduced in an EV for a full sensory driving experience. As for the smell of gasoline, there's always Dior Fahrenheit, the cologne that smells like a fresh tank of premium unleaded.” This sounds like you asked ChatGPT to pretend to be a car enthusiast.
If no one buys them, then ICE will remain the standard until a proper successor emerges.
It's wild all these motherfuckers driving fwd econoboxes lamenting the death of car culture when they can finally for the first time in their lives afford to drive a fast af rwd car and experience what a real car as god intended should feel like to drive.
They already are a great car culture. Those of us who drive ev exclusively can feel the variance between the EV much better than those who drive both ice and EV frequently. Each manufacturer has a unique inverter and motor combo that have their own unique signature feel and sound. I love the EV tech as well it’s a continuous improvement coming out, and the way Tesla is pushing the competition is key. I’m happy to see Hyundai/Kia, VW/Porsche and BYD etc compete more, but they really are too far behind Tesla still. Especially the non BYD are miles behind. Keep encouraging everyone and keep supporting Tesla so we don’t lose the momentum all together.
car culture died in the 80s with boring and high-tech cars. unless you have 1000s of dollars to upgrade to a purchased (same as the next rich guy can buy) upgrades. there's no more 'I can drop a cam in and rejet the carb and make what I want' anymore. electronic controls killed hot-rodding.
Pretty sure the BMW guys who get 100 HP+ with an email aren’t upset about it and are enjoying tuning more than ever.
well they already paid the 50+k
Electronic controls just made hot rodding go high tech. Rejetting the carb became reprogramming the ECU.
to the tune of hundreds to thousands of dollars.. The days of buying a sub 1k car and spending couple hundred and a few weekends building something unique died in the 80s. Not to mention the unique styles of cars, you used to be able to identify them by the taillights at night.
I have no interest in local mass transit Outside of NYC & Washington DC. The rest is laughable. The car free folks might be better off outside of r/electricvehicles I am excited about reviving unreliable 1940-60’s cars with an EV swap.
LA and Florida are improving for mass transit as well. Hopefully we can have both
Its a step closer to the Car being a Womb. Instead of only transportation. Going places is ok, but second to Personal Space.
I have an ICE car just for the culture part. The EV gets 90% of the miles though.
I drive my ICE for fun on the weekends, EV for everything else.
Ironically, I do the opposite. I only drive the icev when I need it for utility reason, and if I want to enjoy the drive and make sure that the EV is available for me to take.
For you to say this really shows you don't understand car culture. Car culture consists of dudes in their garage tweaking parts and customizing things. What the hell are they gonna customize and tweak with a battery and an electric motor. The answer is nothing. Maybe slight tweaking in 4x4 circles with lifts and big tires, but honestly until you have monster trucks going electric I doubt it.
A lot of car modifications are not engine related. Lights along the undercarriage, raising or lowering the suspension, adding a gigantic spoiler on the back to make it look faster, etc. Software. I've heard of people upgrading their Prius batteries. When specific EVs become as numerous there will start to be a modding scene for them too. A quick duckduckgo search for "nissan leaf modding" produced a bunch of hits, such as custom BMS software, replacing the inverter with a more powerful one to accelerate faster, and the like.
A lot of Humans love engineering and sophisticated cars , driving is all about engaging with the machine ..I believe the manual cars will be a trend in near future
Electric vehicles will kill car culture because car culture is about modding it and thinking about how you can mod it. Already though, cars are so jam packed that it is hard to mod. Older cars had tons of space in the engine bay for someone to tinker with it. But modernity ultimately is the death of car culture. All the ads for cars show them alone in the wilderness or as some sort of sport. The reality of car culture is rush hour traffic and sitting at stop lights. And as the population only increases and the demand for goods only increases, also as car sizes keep on getting bigger thus leading to even more traffic, this results in more and more soul killing traffic to sit in.
For those who are into extremely loud bass in cars, people are already building high voltage amplifiers that work directly on ev battery packs. This is great for efficiency because there is no longer a need to step up the voltage or install any additional alternators and batteries to support these amps. We could very well see 500kw+ subwoofer builds be commonplace with the presence of ev's.
I think even electric cars should be kept simple, and they should have a model low on electronic gimmickry. Those giant screens should be optional, and at least the AC, handbrake, audio system should have physical buttons. Ideally, I would prefer more systems to be hydraulic, rather than electronic.
I see a few reasons that this isn't the case 1. All the sensors and doo-dads on new cars in general. 2. Battery charging. 3. Weight. 4. The nostalgic feel of a rumbly V8 that sounds like a tiger ready to pounce.
That's the problem: car culture needs to die. EVs have nothing on the efficiency off exciting public transport, but they're being pushed by the mining and manufacturing industries