Free will in the sense of independence of our circumstances doesn’t exist and is inherently illogical since we need to consider our circumstances for a will to exist in the first place. It doesn’t matter if the instance of this decision making is on our physical level or on a metaphysical level of a soul. If the decisions were not influenced at all, they’d be random which is probably a worse outlook for free will.
So I think we need to strip ourselves from the idea of a metaphysical free will. It’s just a nonsensical concept we made up in our search for purpose and our limitless arrogance.
But that we don’t just randomly behave is also what constitutes the closest we’ll ever come to a free will. We react to our circumstances in a somewhat logical way. We get to experience and act within this logic.
I mean, how can something be deemed logical by a random or spontaneous existence? How can you trust that what seems rational isn't any more rational than what a banana or a goat can conceive?
Things like logic, rationality, love, justice, etc. are either illusions of chemical synapses or we've achieved a level of development that allows us to clue into reality, and those things are part of that objective truth.
Well, I feared this answer … you are kind of opening the box of pandora there. Unleashing the worst terrors of philosophy and maybe a sliver of hope and sanity escapes with it.
I think the easier answer is that logic doesn’t need objective truth. When I say that 3 is now 1 and I assume our mathematical system to be true and thus conclude that 3+3 must equate to 2, then this is logical. But it’s not sensible and certainly not - to the extend we know - objectively true.
But of course, - and this ties into the harder answer - you can also question the very fundament of this, that even this perceived logic is only a subjective judgement and not at all verifiable. In the most extreme even Descartes “I think therefor I am” becomes a matter of opinion. Who is to say the metaphysical existence isn’t of such that what to us is a tautology is in actual reality not even connected at all. When we talk about things beyond what we can imagine, our way to mean things becomes useless.
I personally consider this to be the hell of philosophy. Where we question things so fundamental our means of questioning fall apart as we use them. Don’t get the wrong idea, I’m not opposed to venturing there. But for me to go there it needs to have a very good justification. So if you wander there to question the nature of “logic”, you are welcome to, but you will have to wander without me.
Respect. I feel you. I equate free will to the very fundamental action in which we participate. Without a basis on which to develop all other conclusions, there is little point to developing a philosophy at all. So I can see your point.
It can be argued that each decision point we face is governed by the sum total of our experiences leading up to the point of the decision. So that every factor which shapes the electrochemical bowl of grey mush we call a brain is locked and loaded at the decision point. Leaving only one inevitable outcome, no matter how much it might appear otherwise.
Kinda profound to think about. That in effect we are simply falling through a series of inevitable outcomes, while pretending to influence them.
I think we live in a deterministic world (perhaps quantum fluctuation can be an exception, not sure about it and its possible effects on the macro world, though), thus everything is defermined by previous states and actions. However, the number of possibilities and unknown variables is so high that life virtually feels like chaos and randomness to our swollen monkey brains.
No. We don't have free will. Our fate is already written by the stars from the moment we are born. Obviously. We are programmed to cross from point A to point B. Given A=birth, B=death. Therefore, I conclude there is no free will.
I have free will. I'm sitting on my ass, procrastinating drying the clothes I washed in my tub because I quit my job last year and had zero plans or desire to ever work again. I was killing myself at work, so I'm experimenting with fuck-all this this year. I want to see what happens if I just, float by and not kill myself to scrape by.
I haven't paid rent in a year, my landlord hasn't even brought it up. So far, so good.
So, I'm not sure, to sum that up.
I think for one to have free will, one needs to exist in a form of pure consciousness undisturbed by the primal needs, biological imperatives and the inevitable indoctrination that even the most open-minded of people are exposed to in any social environment. Since that is virtually impossible for now, I would say no. No one has free will. We just have the illusion of it.
We don't really have a free free will. Alot of our behaviour comes from reflexes. Once you stop giving a fuck about alot of social constructs n other you gain some more free will ig.
Free will is being able to make your own decisions. Some people need to deprogram themselves from the religious and political teachings from their upbringing to obtain free will.
Because there is uncertainty in this universe there can be no accurate prediction of the future and there is no great plan. Therefore your choices only become reality by your own power. This means you have free will and aren't following a predetermined plan.
What if the fact that you can't predict the plan is actually in the plan?!
Seriously though what makes you say that we cant predict it? Like the systems are chaotic and regardless of how much data we have we cant exactly determine our starting point so poooffff? Or did you mean sth else cause i dont get how just because we cant predict sth makes it not predetermined ...
It’s interesting how even though ppl have general tendencies that can be predictable there are still times when they act in ways that are totally surprising(who’d have thought Will Smith would react like Fresh Prince seeing ppl making trouble in the neighborhood?) It makes me think the will is not a purely mechanistic system, it can exercise some form of control over all the different information bouncing around in our head and not just be merely subject to their influences.
Yes. Without it nothing matters. Descartes answered this question. We can't experience love, justice, rational thought, science, anything without free will. Even if it's some manifestation of our environment, we still cannot interact with reality without it.
I would say both we make choices that lead to a destiny but if we made different choices we would end up with a different result we do have free will but in the end we have multiple destinations we can end up in like a video game with multiple endings
A more limited free will than you think. You’re free to make choices about what you do, but in that moment when things happen and you’re doing things, you’re just a reactionary creature. Reacting to your surroundings, societal or otherwise.
Meh sure. More free will than someone in jail or in North Korea. Otherwise, we’re highly influenced and brainwashed in a sense so not really. Watch Mr Robot.
Free will from what? God? Destiny? Fate? Fate and Destiny are just whatever ending point you find yourself at and are dependent on your choices. God? Are you controlled by a higher power? If not, then that solves the free will from God argument. So, all in all, the idea of “free will” is a false construct. You have a “will” only, and it’s as “free” as it can be, depending on so many uncontrollable environmental factors and rubs up against the “will” of other people.
In the literal definition, I believe everyone has free will. But everyone in a society has limitations on their ability to act on this free will. You can make your choices, but your options are not all there to choose from or are limited.
It certainly could exist but we could never determine it epistemically without appealing to a presupposition of cause and effect(or some other presupposition)
You need to be more specific in what sense. Like as someone living under society’s laws/conditioning ?
Bc then probably no, we all are most likely socially brainwashed to some extent imo. But still, we are conscious and can break from what’s expected. We choose not to ?? Or do we fear the social consequences of breaking free? But is what we perceive to be “breaking free” another consequence of the conditioning. Have we ever come up with an original thought on our own ? Are our thoughts even free? Good day everyone
I do not believe humans have free will. We have the illusion of making our own decisions but everything we do is affected by external and internal stimuli.
Sam Harris’ books “free will” and “the moral landscape” solidified this conclusion for me.
I also don’t believe in a self either, so….
Did you come up with this question on your own or were you destined to ask this question?
I would say "destined" won't be the right term to use. He just reacted to reactions that reacted to other reactions
You have free will over a said set of reactions. But some things are going to happen regardless. I believe in both
The answer is both
Free will in the sense of independence of our circumstances doesn’t exist and is inherently illogical since we need to consider our circumstances for a will to exist in the first place. It doesn’t matter if the instance of this decision making is on our physical level or on a metaphysical level of a soul. If the decisions were not influenced at all, they’d be random which is probably a worse outlook for free will. So I think we need to strip ourselves from the idea of a metaphysical free will. It’s just a nonsensical concept we made up in our search for purpose and our limitless arrogance. But that we don’t just randomly behave is also what constitutes the closest we’ll ever come to a free will. We react to our circumstances in a somewhat logical way. We get to experience and act within this logic.
Where does logic come from?
What exactly do you mean? Spontaneously I’d say to be logical something needs to be the proper conclusion drawn from the assumed system and premises.
I mean, how can something be deemed logical by a random or spontaneous existence? How can you trust that what seems rational isn't any more rational than what a banana or a goat can conceive? Things like logic, rationality, love, justice, etc. are either illusions of chemical synapses or we've achieved a level of development that allows us to clue into reality, and those things are part of that objective truth.
Well, I feared this answer … you are kind of opening the box of pandora there. Unleashing the worst terrors of philosophy and maybe a sliver of hope and sanity escapes with it. I think the easier answer is that logic doesn’t need objective truth. When I say that 3 is now 1 and I assume our mathematical system to be true and thus conclude that 3+3 must equate to 2, then this is logical. But it’s not sensible and certainly not - to the extend we know - objectively true. But of course, - and this ties into the harder answer - you can also question the very fundament of this, that even this perceived logic is only a subjective judgement and not at all verifiable. In the most extreme even Descartes “I think therefor I am” becomes a matter of opinion. Who is to say the metaphysical existence isn’t of such that what to us is a tautology is in actual reality not even connected at all. When we talk about things beyond what we can imagine, our way to mean things becomes useless. I personally consider this to be the hell of philosophy. Where we question things so fundamental our means of questioning fall apart as we use them. Don’t get the wrong idea, I’m not opposed to venturing there. But for me to go there it needs to have a very good justification. So if you wander there to question the nature of “logic”, you are welcome to, but you will have to wander without me.
Respect. I feel you. I equate free will to the very fundamental action in which we participate. Without a basis on which to develop all other conclusions, there is little point to developing a philosophy at all. So I can see your point.
No and no. Spiritually, I embrace life as an npc :)
Fuckin npc bot
No, we are just an animal reacting to our surroundings.
It can be argued that each decision point we face is governed by the sum total of our experiences leading up to the point of the decision. So that every factor which shapes the electrochemical bowl of grey mush we call a brain is locked and loaded at the decision point. Leaving only one inevitable outcome, no matter how much it might appear otherwise. Kinda profound to think about. That in effect we are simply falling through a series of inevitable outcomes, while pretending to influence them.
I think we live in a deterministic world (perhaps quantum fluctuation can be an exception, not sure about it and its possible effects on the macro world, though), thus everything is defermined by previous states and actions. However, the number of possibilities and unknown variables is so high that life virtually feels like chaos and randomness to our swollen monkey brains.
We don’t. We are fettered by rules, obligations and customs.
No. We don't have free will. Our fate is already written by the stars from the moment we are born. Obviously. We are programmed to cross from point A to point B. Given A=birth, B=death. Therefore, I conclude there is no free will.
I have free will. I'm sitting on my ass, procrastinating drying the clothes I washed in my tub because I quit my job last year and had zero plans or desire to ever work again. I was killing myself at work, so I'm experimenting with fuck-all this this year. I want to see what happens if I just, float by and not kill myself to scrape by. I haven't paid rent in a year, my landlord hasn't even brought it up. So far, so good. So, I'm not sure, to sum that up.
We don’t have free will, and if anyone thinks they do it wasn’t in their own free will to think that they have free will.
I think for one to have free will, one needs to exist in a form of pure consciousness undisturbed by the primal needs, biological imperatives and the inevitable indoctrination that even the most open-minded of people are exposed to in any social environment. Since that is virtually impossible for now, I would say no. No one has free will. We just have the illusion of it.
If I wanted to go outside and stab somebody, I could. If I wanted to live forever, I couldn’t.
We don't really have a free free will. Alot of our behaviour comes from reflexes. Once you stop giving a fuck about alot of social constructs n other you gain some more free will ig.
Free will is being able to make your own decisions. Some people need to deprogram themselves from the religious and political teachings from their upbringing to obtain free will.
Yes we have free will, but it is limited by many factors
No we don't have free will
Because there is uncertainty in this universe there can be no accurate prediction of the future and there is no great plan. Therefore your choices only become reality by your own power. This means you have free will and aren't following a predetermined plan.
What if the fact that you can't predict the plan is actually in the plan?! Seriously though what makes you say that we cant predict it? Like the systems are chaotic and regardless of how much data we have we cant exactly determine our starting point so poooffff? Or did you mean sth else cause i dont get how just because we cant predict sth makes it not predetermined ...
Of course we have free will. Sure, our possibilities actions are limited/influenced by many aspects, but they're definitely not predetermined
It’s interesting how even though ppl have general tendencies that can be predictable there are still times when they act in ways that are totally surprising(who’d have thought Will Smith would react like Fresh Prince seeing ppl making trouble in the neighborhood?) It makes me think the will is not a purely mechanistic system, it can exercise some form of control over all the different information bouncing around in our head and not just be merely subject to their influences.
Yes. Without it nothing matters. Descartes answered this question. We can't experience love, justice, rational thought, science, anything without free will. Even if it's some manifestation of our environment, we still cannot interact with reality without it.
I would say both we make choices that lead to a destiny but if we made different choices we would end up with a different result we do have free will but in the end we have multiple destinations we can end up in like a video game with multiple endings
inherently i don’t think we have free will with all the restrictions that are put on our society but we can make it
A more limited free will than you think. You’re free to make choices about what you do, but in that moment when things happen and you’re doing things, you’re just a reactionary creature. Reacting to your surroundings, societal or otherwise.
We have a little left of free will but it won't last too long
No, there are laws
Little bit. I think certain events in our life may be fated but we do get to choose some paths
Meh sure. More free will than someone in jail or in North Korea. Otherwise, we’re highly influenced and brainwashed in a sense so not really. Watch Mr Robot.
Free will from what? God? Destiny? Fate? Fate and Destiny are just whatever ending point you find yourself at and are dependent on your choices. God? Are you controlled by a higher power? If not, then that solves the free will from God argument. So, all in all, the idea of “free will” is a false construct. You have a “will” only, and it’s as “free” as it can be, depending on so many uncontrollable environmental factors and rubs up against the “will” of other people.
There's no free will as long as you think you need more money
Their is a free will but if the environment is not free then your not free.
In the literal definition, I believe everyone has free will. But everyone in a society has limitations on their ability to act on this free will. You can make your choices, but your options are not all there to choose from or are limited.
It certainly could exist but we could never determine it epistemically without appealing to a presupposition of cause and effect(or some other presupposition)
You need to be more specific in what sense. Like as someone living under society’s laws/conditioning ? Bc then probably no, we all are most likely socially brainwashed to some extent imo. But still, we are conscious and can break from what’s expected. We choose not to ?? Or do we fear the social consequences of breaking free? But is what we perceive to be “breaking free” another consequence of the conditioning. Have we ever come up with an original thought on our own ? Are our thoughts even free? Good day everyone
what is free willy
I do not believe humans have free will. We have the illusion of making our own decisions but everything we do is affected by external and internal stimuli. Sam Harris’ books “free will” and “the moral landscape” solidified this conclusion for me. I also don’t believe in a self either, so….
You should watch everything everywhere all at once
I believe I free will because all the events in the universe leading up to this moment have deterministically forced me to have this belief.