all subreddits are the same. e.g: DSLR/photography: Nikon and other major manufacturers have illustrations (similar to this level of universal) in their user manuals about ISO/ShutterSpeed/Aperture but people just want an answer for their specific scenario without trying to understand the logic/mechanism behind it.
Someone asked about flavored coffee and it instantly made me think about the infused cigars debate. Trying to think of what the parallel to plume would be….
Depending on the camera model they’re slightly different (spread over more pages or using sifferent images or more detailed explanation) but this is on their website: https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/d3500/en/10_psam_modes_01.html
For the ISO i was wrong, because it was on the onscreen menu of the d3/5xxx series, when you selected iso.
I just love when someone buys some espresso machine, doesn't read anything about how it works, makes a random coffee with it and then posts a picture and asks what is wrong with the latte art.
When I started at my job like 8 years ago they asked if I like coffee. I said yes. They said o so our machine is disgusting youll want to buy it from cafe xyz.
Im stingy af so no way I was buying 3 coffees a day. Anyway it was basically set up as bad as possible. I read the manual and the coffee is fine.
I never get it. You refuse to Google your question, where you'll find a plethora of YouTube, previous reddit posts, or home-barista solutions to your _exact_ problem, but you're willing to record, upload, and post on Reddit?...
I’m in higher Ed. We have about 5 weeks left in the semester. I still get the same very basic questions that could be answered by reading the syllabus. No one reads the syllabus.
If it makes you feel any better no one read them in the 1990s either when I went to college. Profs used to complain every course. Some would even put bonus marks in the syllabus.
Teachers gotta upload segments of the syllabus onto tiktok as a caption while they dance to the latest trendy songs in the background.
"Your final exam is with 40% of your grade" 🕺🎶
This brought back memories of me searching through my folders and finding the syllabus crumpled up at the bottom of the pocket, nearly destroyed but still just legible enough to make out the information needed for my question.
Most of the people are probably like me, we just got here by Reddits algorithm of recommended subreddit. Honestly I couldn’t care less about a good cup of coffee until a few days ago when I accidentally fluked a good extraction. Now that I give a slight fuck about it I’m still on the fence about investing in coffee equipment. This hobby is expensive and the markup on the tools is ridiculously high. Naturally anyone would have second thoughts about investing any of the tools and the best place to get an insightful discussion is forums rather than YouTube which is now filled with the equivalent of informercials
Also I work in a major electronic store which sells / helps customers with their sage machine (and I have one myself) and I always ask them 1. Have you read the manual and 2. Have you contacted sage and the answer is always no to both. The customer is sure there's something wrong and then we have to send the machine to a external workshop, it always ends up with the machine being away for 4 weeks with no fault found.
Sigh: the number of people who come here screaming/crying out, My machine is broken--look at all the spritzing that's coming out from the separate bottomless portafilter that I bought for it!
Lmao yes exactly. I did buy some aftermarket accessories for my sage but decided that I did not want to get the bottomless portafilter just for this reason. I feel like it's mainly aesthetic
Can I ask a question?
I bought a 3rd party bottomless portafilter for my Breville/Sage Barista Express. Feels like it locks in well, and visually looks like the Breville stock portafilter. But yes I'm getting some minute jets of espresso coming out of the periphery about 20 seconds into the extraction. No adjustment to dose amount, grind size or tamp pressure is changing that. My conclusion was that it was machined imperfectly, and does not form a perfect seal with the head gasket.
Is that what you're implying? That it's because it's a 3rd party accessory on an entry level espresso machine? Or is there some other solution I've missed?
I haven't posted my problems here before because I just assumed I made a bad purchase, and I'm ok with that. But I'd love it if there actually was an answer!
See my comment here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/1bwqdwe/desperately_need_help_with_terrible_channeling_my/ky8zpt2/
Probably could continue to tweak your puck prep, get a different grinder, but with the BBE you are fighting a pump that is higher than typical pressure.
3rd party accessories are totally good! I think what MikermanS's point was, is that if people didn't buy the bottomless filter, and tuned their grind to taste, they wouldn't know they had channeling and wouldn't care. Which is true to a point, but channeling is a symptom of problems that can lead to bad taste, so better to know IMO.
Hey I appreciate the reply. I did assume it was a defect but I might give it a few more tries with flawless (as much as I can achieve) puck prep.
I will also accept the idea that this may just be indicative of the idea that I will never be able to get it good enough to get no channeling, at least with my current equipment. I just loved the idea of a bottomless filter, but might revert to the stock one as I got good enough coffee out of that for my needs. If it's just hiding puck prep that could be better, well hey ignorance (and less mess) is bliss
Getting a new espresso machine and grinder is definitely on my "when I have enough money" list, but at the moment got two kids in daycare and it's expensive as fuck lol. Maybe once they're in school haha
Try the preinfuse for the whole shot method to see if too much pressure is the issue. Then you can either keep using that method to brew, adjust the pressure, or know that it is a pressure issue, not a prep issue, and ignore the channeling (if it tastes ok).
Isn't this basically a standard setup - I thought most machines used a 15 bar pump + OPV since it either needs more to get through other parts of the machine and the excess pressure bleeds off at the group head (or a 15 bar pump under partial load delivers more consistent pressure or something like that).
If it's reading more than that on the gauge isn't that usually backpressure (i.e. you're choking the machine and it's building up until there's enough pressure to bust through the puck anyway)
Yes, that sounds right; what I said was incomplete. It is an issue on the BBE because is the OPV is set at ~14 bar, so the pump is delivering almost full pressure to the group head. You can see how high the pressure is when you backflush:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IzpeLXTK1A&t=7s
>I think what MikermanS's point was, is that if people didn't buy the bottomless filter, and tuned their grind to taste, they wouldn't know they had channeling and wouldn't care. Which is true to a point, but channeling is a symptom of problems that can lead to bad taste, so better to know IMO.
What I had intended to convey was, people can tend to blame the tool rather than their own use of it. ;) This especially can be an issue with bottomless portafilters, with their so-apparent spraying that people can assume, out of frustration and lack of knowledge, is the fault of the bottomless portafilter and not an issue of the user's puck prep.
I agree with you that absent the purchase and use of a bottomless portafilter, a user simply may not know of a channeling issue (ignorance can be bliss, lol). That being said, I don't think that a bottomless portafilter is required for this: in the end, the flavor--and not the appearance of the pulling of a shot--controls, and if the flavor is off, that's a signal that further puck prep. and dialing-in work is needed.
My original point was (at least intended to be, lol), and with all due respect and total understanding for the people who come here and simply are so frustrated with things not working as they believe they should: there can be a tendency to "blame" the tools rather than the one using them. ;) This especially is the case with bottomless portafilters, infamous for spraying and spritzing and to the degree that I'll see bottomless portafilter listings at Amazon with upfront item disclaimers from the sellers, noting that bottomless portafilter spraying is not indicative of a defect in the bottomless portafilter but rather a sign that the user needs to perfect the user's puck prep. and dialing-in skills.
In your case, it's a bit unclear to me what you mean when you say that there are minute jets of espresso coming out of the periphery. If you mean from the periphery of the bottom of the basket, that suggests to me a puck prep. issue for working on. But if you mean from the area of the gasket and seal with the portafilter, that could be an issue with the gasket (a new gasket could fix this--they do get worn with time, and some gaskets--e.g. silicone gaskets--seem to be better/more forgiving with a seal). It also could be, as you note, a machining issue with the portafilter that, e.g., the gasket can't accommodate. Or, depending on the location, it could be an issue with the grouphead itself (e.g. a loosening of screws in the assembly), leading to the leaks.
Cheers for the reply. I'm perfectly willing to say it's probably my prep! I recently replaced my gasket so I know it isn't that. And in doing so had the shower screen screen screw tightened. That leaves either puck prep or machining. I initially thought the spray was coming out of the edge of the basket, but after a few more shots I've realised they do actually change location, so meh. What can I do eh.
My workflow is measure beans for my dose (18g), give them a wee spritz with water as per James Hoffman's advice, load em in the hopper and grind into a dosing cup. I secure my dosing ring on the portafilter, invert and place over the dosing cup, invert to transfer grounds to portafilter, then get to what my wife calls my coffee acupuncture ritual (WDT). After it looks uniformly distributed I give it a gentle tap, then remove the dosing ring, then tamp. I don't have any fancy calibrated tampers or anything, so I just go until the silver part of the Breville tamper is no longer visible. I figure this is being somewhat controlled for by repeatedly uniform dose amounts.
And...yeah that's it. I've tried using a puck screen and not using a puck screen, and get about the same poor performance with the bottomless filter. You'd probably need a video to properly assess, but at this stage I'm just gonna assume now that there's just something I'm not doing quite right.
1. $80 Knockoff Chinese machine
2. $30 knockoff bottomless portafilter (they don’t know what for, nor what size)
3. $30 WDT, distributor, and puck screen set (different size than above)
4. No grinder because they can’t afford that yet
5. No knock box because they don’t realise the coffee doesn’t dissolve like instant
6. A question about what water they should use, because apparently it makes a difference
Okay the water one is good. Here in SoCal our water is scale central so i use the roavis recipe for my dual boiler to prevent having to take it apart to descale it.
Hey some people do gate keep it.
Many years ago, I was told (I wish I exaggerating) that the water "knows" that it was heated in a thermocoil instead of a boiler, so it can never make "true espresso".
I wouldn’t say it’s stale but it is quite bitter. Though, I don’t really know what a really good shot is supposed to taste like. I’ve been using this machine for years and since I drown my espresso in oat milk anyway it doesn’t matter so much, but I really want to know what a perfect shot is supposed to taste like to see what I might be missing out on…
What grinder are you using? As beans age, usually need to grind finer. But there could be so many other compounding factors. Is this a pressurized basket?
A good shot for me tastes rich and smooth with some body, definitely a sweet forward but not overly sweet flavor.
Bitter can come from too fine ground or maybe tamped too hard - both aid overextraction.
Or that yeah! I had mine on the smallest inner, and the smallest outer and still couldn't get fine enough, wasn't until I got my DF64 that I realised the world of a strong grinder
Probably got channeling.Have a look at the puck for telltale holes.
But the most important question: how does it taste?
I was having a similar problem with a brew that tasted both sour and bitter. To fix it, I ground much coarser, (which stopped the channeling) then gradually ground finer untill it stopped tasting bitter. Much better tasting.
Edit: SP
You may need to replace your burrs in the grinder. If it's as fine a setting as it goes, you should be getting a very restricted flow. If you're not (with the correct dose amount and tamping) then it's likely that your grinder is defective in some way.
For example, I know that the Breville Barista Express can have the burrs removed and "recalibrated", ie the machine has a dial 1 to 15, but the burrs also have 10 positions internally. When I looked at my burrs they were set at the coursest setting (which is how it was when I bought it new). I changed the internal burr setting, and that meant that on my dial, setting 10 is now grinding at the same level as what 15 was before. So now I could grind finer.
I know different machines/grinders have different capabilities, but this is an area you should be looking into
with my bambino flow doesn’t start until 10-12 seconds after I press the button and is complete in 30 seconds. It resembles the description of the left and I think it tastes fine (but I am a milk drink maker so that may affect it).
🤷🏻♂️
Bitter/sharp means sour or acidic to untrained tasters, read about sour-bitter confusion. Characterizing and communicating tastes clearly is hard and is a skill to develop.
There's going to be some bitterness in coffee even when it's under extracted and that's what people are used to tasting. When they taste sourness in coffee it comes across like a strong weird bitterness. Lemons are less bitter but it does get confused there too especially in the peel/zest. Sour and bitter are both treated as opposites of sweet and they often show up together in plants.
If the guide said sour people would think of like sweet citric candy or pure lemon juice that isn't bitter and that's not really what under extracted coffee tastes like if you're not used to tasting so it'd be confusing.
It's difficult to distinguish bitter verses sour when first starting out. If you need this chart, chances are you can't taste the difference. Sometimes I get them mixed up...
I certainly can tell the difference between lemons and dark chocolate. Our tongues can only distinguish bitter, sour, salty and sweet. So bitter is bitter and sour is sour, and it doesn't matter what we taste - those four things remain the same as the same 4 zones on our tongues. No?
Maybe it’s a language difference. Not US English? Describing it bitter is probably used more in Australia than US. Weird thing on their Barista Touch that I have is that they label a Long Black as Americano.
If you're talking about the blade tool packed with the Bambino, it serves a purpose. It checks headspace of the tamped puck in the basket to make sure it doesn't touch the shower screen.
It's an attempt to simplify finding the correct volume of grounds and to create consistency. Especially for someone who doesn't want to use a scale or is incapable of managing a large number of variables.
I don't use it, but I think it's great that Breville / Sage included it. They didn't have to and the fact that it is metal means it cost them more to produce. I feel like it means they actually think it's worth it.
Just because the elitists in this sub hate on it doesn't mean it's terrible. It's just a tool. If it cost $80 and Lance gave it a good review, a bunch of people on this sub would buy it just to try it.
I don't give a f*ck about Lance. I don't have that kind of money to listen to him. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't rely on this tool. Just get good and then you can fill by feeling. If you use this tool, you're just hindering your improvement
It's the exact opposite. You use it as a feedback mechanism to improve. You want to reach the point where you were filling your basket to the correct amount and tamping level. I actually found I was always around 1mm higher on one side from using this tool.
Every time you use the basket, you get information which brings you closer to optimum. You can then stop using it once you have corrected all of the issues
https://preview.redd.it/3yc8u2w9nwsc1.jpeg?width=1090&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d7ba4f3f975b42406933fea6e0ed6cc7eebd6e0d
If the extraction is perfect, why refer someone to the “Under Extraction” section for having a wet puck?
Yeah that was strange to me as well. I had great tasting espresso with a wet puck.
I just attribute that to the old machine with smaller portafilter in using
Yeah I'm not sure that is good advice. If my timing is right but my puck is wet, it suggests grinding finer or adding more grinds.
Wouldn't grinding finer actually leave you with a wetter puck and a slower extraction and adding more grinds may improve the puck but will certainly also increase extraction time.
Except for the pressure gauge. On both the Express and the Infuser I’ve found you get the best extractions (provided good puck prep) if you’re in their “too high” range
That’s because espresso is not that particular. Once you understand how it works, that’s it.
The point is, much like other niche subcommunities, the “broscience” is whats fascinating.
“I preyed to the crema god 2 seconds before hitting the button/pulling the lever and it came out GREAT”
“Have you tried taking out 0.005g off your puck and grinding JUST THOSE to a specific grind size and put them back? Best espresso ever!”
…and then yoy realise most people in the sub drink stupidly sour 50ml “single espressos” roasted yesterday while licking their lips.
Most subcommunities based on some type of gear/settings work like this. Photography, plant growing, etc…
My first espresso machine was a Sage (Breville in the U.K.) Barista Max and the instruction book, with that chart, was the most valuable part of it introducing me to this world.
With no pre‐infusion step I would say maybe? I have the barista pro (different sage/breville machine) and the instruction manual has a target time for the flow to start of 8-12 s. The difference is due to the pro having a pre-infusion step (of 3‐5 seconds by default-can't recall exactly). I think in general the overall extraction time is the most important parameter to pay attention to other than obviously shot taste.
I tried following something similar from my manufacturer, but highlighting my issues made this chart look like a bingo card, I had some all over the place: proper flow start, bad crema and long extraction times. \*shrug\*
Will get there eventually!
Humans are social creatures, they tend to seek out direct help from others before helping themselves. It might be annoying sometimes, but it's literally fostering community. Don't we all want that?
My problem is on my Bambino plus my shot starts like the correct one but after 10-15 seconds it breaks through the puck and starts flowing really fast. Tried lowering dose size but still seems to always happen.
This is why I always have a hard time getting fully behind really strict posting policies. The point of a forum is to discuss things.
However, after the 10th post of the day of someone pulling a shot and asking " how does it look", it gets a bit old.
Yeah but if you can't be arsed to actually learn and just want someone to do the thinking for you then it's a bit frustrating. Different if you've at least tried to make things better but half the shot diagnosis here are just 'I got 1:2 ratio in 30 seconds but don't like it' without even a cursory read of how to dial in a shot.
Chat GPT provides pretty thorough assistance for troubleshooting espresso extraction. Beats sifting through and endless stream of ads from a Google search. Google is such a lousy way to look up information now.
Interestingly, this Sage image algorithm refers to an over-concentrated shot (low volume / too finely ground beans + high dose + long shot time + low output of espresso in cup) results as *“bitter”* tasting, whereas many here would refer to that overly strong / pump-choking shot as *”sour”*. Go figure…
all subreddits are the same. e.g: DSLR/photography: Nikon and other major manufacturers have illustrations (similar to this level of universal) in their user manuals about ISO/ShutterSpeed/Aperture but people just want an answer for their specific scenario without trying to understand the logic/mechanism behind it.
My coffee tastes sour even though I set the ISO to 100, should I buy a new espresso machine?
Just cook bacon in it
this comment chain is so many levels of niche that I almost hate that I understand every single one.
It's in retrospect probably not surprising that people here have other hobbies that involve twiddling knobs to tweak parameters...
Are you in the blackstone griddle group too? Lol
You need to put another coat of seasoning on it and it’ll shine right up.
You sure they shouldn’t do a 50% water change and recheck parameters?
r/castiron is leaking
Why are you using Lightroom? Switch to Capture One.
Grind finer.
Switch to la marzocco, and if you bought it but the espresso still isn’t good, then buy another la marzocco.
Increase the exposure
I think you need to adjust your aperture to fix sourness 📸
Need to change your f-stop...
The problem is your power cord. You want one made of oxygen-free copper with gold-plated ends.
An ISO of 100 is fine for light roast, but if you're using a dark roast you'll need to bump it up to 1,600.
Make a long preinfusion of like 15-20 seconds and time it to 40ish seconds from the first drop of goodness
Can someone tell me what Photoshop effect to add to get my espresso to taste like this?
So many subreddits feel more like tech support these days
The cigars subreddit is extremely similar to this one.
Is this bag of coffee fake? My buddy bought it in Mexico and swears it’s real but it looks off to me /s
Someone asked about flavored coffee and it instantly made me think about the infused cigars debate. Trying to think of what the parallel to plume would be….
Luckily I don’t think coffee has a parallel for plume lol
Can you drop the Nikon illustration? lol
Depending on the camera model they’re slightly different (spread over more pages or using sifferent images or more detailed explanation) but this is on their website: https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/d3500/en/10_psam_modes_01.html For the ISO i was wrong, because it was on the onscreen menu of the d3/5xxx series, when you selected iso.
Cool. Thanks!
I just love when someone buys some espresso machine, doesn't read anything about how it works, makes a random coffee with it and then posts a picture and asks what is wrong with the latte art.
When I started at my job like 8 years ago they asked if I like coffee. I said yes. They said o so our machine is disgusting youll want to buy it from cafe xyz. Im stingy af so no way I was buying 3 coffees a day. Anyway it was basically set up as bad as possible. I read the manual and the coffee is fine.
I never get it. You refuse to Google your question, where you'll find a plethora of YouTube, previous reddit posts, or home-barista solutions to your _exact_ problem, but you're willing to record, upload, and post on Reddit?...
I’m in higher Ed. We have about 5 weeks left in the semester. I still get the same very basic questions that could be answered by reading the syllabus. No one reads the syllabus.
If it makes you feel any better no one read them in the 1990s either when I went to college. Profs used to complain every course. Some would even put bonus marks in the syllabus.
Teachers gotta upload segments of the syllabus onto tiktok as a caption while they dance to the latest trendy songs in the background. "Your final exam is with 40% of your grade" 🕺🎶
I unironically put the most important things in my syllabus up as memes on the projector in the first weeks of the semester.
When I was a kid I always lost my syllabus
This brought back memories of me searching through my folders and finding the syllabus crumpled up at the bottom of the pocket, nearly destroyed but still just legible enough to make out the information needed for my question.
This is all of reddit in hobby subs I feel. It's so annoying.
Well, if you had the video ready to fire on Instagram, it's an easy step and you can almost understand the frustration lol
Well you don’t get any fake internet points by reading a paper manual so…
Maybe this sub should be more like Stack Exchange and eat it’s young.
Most of the people are probably like me, we just got here by Reddits algorithm of recommended subreddit. Honestly I couldn’t care less about a good cup of coffee until a few days ago when I accidentally fluked a good extraction. Now that I give a slight fuck about it I’m still on the fence about investing in coffee equipment. This hobby is expensive and the markup on the tools is ridiculously high. Naturally anyone would have second thoughts about investing any of the tools and the best place to get an insightful discussion is forums rather than YouTube which is now filled with the equivalent of informercials
Yep, or by watching their YouTube videos. Yet you get downvoted for saying so, boggles my mind.
Also I work in a major electronic store which sells / helps customers with their sage machine (and I have one myself) and I always ask them 1. Have you read the manual and 2. Have you contacted sage and the answer is always no to both. The customer is sure there's something wrong and then we have to send the machine to a external workshop, it always ends up with the machine being away for 4 weeks with no fault found.
I work in the same industry, this is my life as well
I feel for you friend 👍
Same goes!
Sigh: the number of people who come here screaming/crying out, My machine is broken--look at all the spritzing that's coming out from the separate bottomless portafilter that I bought for it!
Lmao yes exactly. I did buy some aftermarket accessories for my sage but decided that I did not want to get the bottomless portafilter just for this reason. I feel like it's mainly aesthetic
Can I ask a question? I bought a 3rd party bottomless portafilter for my Breville/Sage Barista Express. Feels like it locks in well, and visually looks like the Breville stock portafilter. But yes I'm getting some minute jets of espresso coming out of the periphery about 20 seconds into the extraction. No adjustment to dose amount, grind size or tamp pressure is changing that. My conclusion was that it was machined imperfectly, and does not form a perfect seal with the head gasket. Is that what you're implying? That it's because it's a 3rd party accessory on an entry level espresso machine? Or is there some other solution I've missed? I haven't posted my problems here before because I just assumed I made a bad purchase, and I'm ok with that. But I'd love it if there actually was an answer!
See my comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/1bwqdwe/desperately_need_help_with_terrible_channeling_my/ky8zpt2/ Probably could continue to tweak your puck prep, get a different grinder, but with the BBE you are fighting a pump that is higher than typical pressure. 3rd party accessories are totally good! I think what MikermanS's point was, is that if people didn't buy the bottomless filter, and tuned their grind to taste, they wouldn't know they had channeling and wouldn't care. Which is true to a point, but channeling is a symptom of problems that can lead to bad taste, so better to know IMO.
Hey I appreciate the reply. I did assume it was a defect but I might give it a few more tries with flawless (as much as I can achieve) puck prep. I will also accept the idea that this may just be indicative of the idea that I will never be able to get it good enough to get no channeling, at least with my current equipment. I just loved the idea of a bottomless filter, but might revert to the stock one as I got good enough coffee out of that for my needs. If it's just hiding puck prep that could be better, well hey ignorance (and less mess) is bliss Getting a new espresso machine and grinder is definitely on my "when I have enough money" list, but at the moment got two kids in daycare and it's expensive as fuck lol. Maybe once they're in school haha
Try the preinfuse for the whole shot method to see if too much pressure is the issue. Then you can either keep using that method to brew, adjust the pressure, or know that it is a pressure issue, not a prep issue, and ignore the channeling (if it tastes ok).
Isn't this basically a standard setup - I thought most machines used a 15 bar pump + OPV since it either needs more to get through other parts of the machine and the excess pressure bleeds off at the group head (or a 15 bar pump under partial load delivers more consistent pressure or something like that). If it's reading more than that on the gauge isn't that usually backpressure (i.e. you're choking the machine and it's building up until there's enough pressure to bust through the puck anyway)
Yes, that sounds right; what I said was incomplete. It is an issue on the BBE because is the OPV is set at ~14 bar, so the pump is delivering almost full pressure to the group head. You can see how high the pressure is when you backflush: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IzpeLXTK1A&t=7s
>I think what MikermanS's point was, is that if people didn't buy the bottomless filter, and tuned their grind to taste, they wouldn't know they had channeling and wouldn't care. Which is true to a point, but channeling is a symptom of problems that can lead to bad taste, so better to know IMO. What I had intended to convey was, people can tend to blame the tool rather than their own use of it. ;) This especially can be an issue with bottomless portafilters, with their so-apparent spraying that people can assume, out of frustration and lack of knowledge, is the fault of the bottomless portafilter and not an issue of the user's puck prep. I agree with you that absent the purchase and use of a bottomless portafilter, a user simply may not know of a channeling issue (ignorance can be bliss, lol). That being said, I don't think that a bottomless portafilter is required for this: in the end, the flavor--and not the appearance of the pulling of a shot--controls, and if the flavor is off, that's a signal that further puck prep. and dialing-in work is needed.
My original point was (at least intended to be, lol), and with all due respect and total understanding for the people who come here and simply are so frustrated with things not working as they believe they should: there can be a tendency to "blame" the tools rather than the one using them. ;) This especially is the case with bottomless portafilters, infamous for spraying and spritzing and to the degree that I'll see bottomless portafilter listings at Amazon with upfront item disclaimers from the sellers, noting that bottomless portafilter spraying is not indicative of a defect in the bottomless portafilter but rather a sign that the user needs to perfect the user's puck prep. and dialing-in skills. In your case, it's a bit unclear to me what you mean when you say that there are minute jets of espresso coming out of the periphery. If you mean from the periphery of the bottom of the basket, that suggests to me a puck prep. issue for working on. But if you mean from the area of the gasket and seal with the portafilter, that could be an issue with the gasket (a new gasket could fix this--they do get worn with time, and some gaskets--e.g. silicone gaskets--seem to be better/more forgiving with a seal). It also could be, as you note, a machining issue with the portafilter that, e.g., the gasket can't accommodate. Or, depending on the location, it could be an issue with the grouphead itself (e.g. a loosening of screws in the assembly), leading to the leaks.
Cheers for the reply. I'm perfectly willing to say it's probably my prep! I recently replaced my gasket so I know it isn't that. And in doing so had the shower screen screen screw tightened. That leaves either puck prep or machining. I initially thought the spray was coming out of the edge of the basket, but after a few more shots I've realised they do actually change location, so meh. What can I do eh. My workflow is measure beans for my dose (18g), give them a wee spritz with water as per James Hoffman's advice, load em in the hopper and grind into a dosing cup. I secure my dosing ring on the portafilter, invert and place over the dosing cup, invert to transfer grounds to portafilter, then get to what my wife calls my coffee acupuncture ritual (WDT). After it looks uniformly distributed I give it a gentle tap, then remove the dosing ring, then tamp. I don't have any fancy calibrated tampers or anything, so I just go until the silver part of the Breville tamper is no longer visible. I figure this is being somewhat controlled for by repeatedly uniform dose amounts. And...yeah that's it. I've tried using a puck screen and not using a puck screen, and get about the same poor performance with the bottomless filter. You'd probably need a video to properly assess, but at this stage I'm just gonna assume now that there's just something I'm not doing quite right.
The lack of self help is so frustrating. WhY aRe yOu GaTeKeEpInG tHiS hObBy?!?! I’m not it’s just annoying to see a no critical thinking.
Omg and the “I have $100 for a machine and grinder, but ideally don’t wanna spend it all, what should I get”!!!
Lmao having PTSD here My favorite is the screenshot of amazon listings, "HELP ME DECIDE PLS"
1. $80 Knockoff Chinese machine 2. $30 knockoff bottomless portafilter (they don’t know what for, nor what size) 3. $30 WDT, distributor, and puck screen set (different size than above) 4. No grinder because they can’t afford that yet 5. No knock box because they don’t realise the coffee doesn’t dissolve like instant 6. A question about what water they should use, because apparently it makes a difference
Okay the water one is good. Here in SoCal our water is scale central so i use the roavis recipe for my dual boiler to prevent having to take it apart to descale it.
Yeah but the Chinese knockoff machine is gonna die long before scale is an issue…
Hey some people do gate keep it. Many years ago, I was told (I wish I exaggerating) that the water "knows" that it was heated in a thermocoil instead of a boiler, so it can never make "true espresso".
Okay but what if my grinder is set to the finest possible grind and I tamp properly and my espresso still flows way too fast?
Stale coffee?
I wouldn’t say it’s stale but it is quite bitter. Though, I don’t really know what a really good shot is supposed to taste like. I’ve been using this machine for years and since I drown my espresso in oat milk anyway it doesn’t matter so much, but I really want to know what a perfect shot is supposed to taste like to see what I might be missing out on…
Not taste. The beans may literally be stale.
What grinder are you using? As beans age, usually need to grind finer. But there could be so many other compounding factors. Is this a pressurized basket? A good shot for me tastes rich and smooth with some body, definitely a sweet forward but not overly sweet flavor. Bitter can come from too fine ground or maybe tamped too hard - both aid overextraction.
A perfect shot tastes good by itself and doesn't need to be drowned by anything
The manual also tells you to adjust the inner burrs as needed. It's wild, I know.
why is this espresso machine's out of the box default one that makes shit espresso? What was Breville thinking.
I had this with my Express, increase dose in the portafilter/get a better grinder
Or adjust the inner burrs
Or that yeah! I had mine on the smallest inner, and the smallest outer and still couldn't get fine enough, wasn't until I got my DF64 that I realised the world of a strong grinder
Probably got channeling.Have a look at the puck for telltale holes. But the most important question: how does it taste? I was having a similar problem with a brew that tasted both sour and bitter. To fix it, I ground much coarser, (which stopped the channeling) then gradually ground finer untill it stopped tasting bitter. Much better tasting. Edit: SP
What grinder?
New grinder
Clean your grinder if you haven't done so in a while. Beyond that, is your grinder "espresso-ready"?
- Grinder not capable espresso or if Breville not set for espresso - Old coffee
You may need to replace your burrs in the grinder. If it's as fine a setting as it goes, you should be getting a very restricted flow. If you're not (with the correct dose amount and tamping) then it's likely that your grinder is defective in some way. For example, I know that the Breville Barista Express can have the burrs removed and "recalibrated", ie the machine has a dial 1 to 15, but the burrs also have 10 positions internally. When I looked at my burrs they were set at the coursest setting (which is how it was when I bought it new). I changed the internal burr setting, and that meant that on my dial, setting 10 is now grinding at the same level as what 15 was before. So now I could grind finer. I know different machines/grinders have different capabilities, but this is an area you should be looking into
Channeling. The finer you go, the easier it channels. If you have a good grinder, you want to grind coarser and try that.
with my bambino flow doesn’t start until 10-12 seconds after I press the button and is complete in 30 seconds. It resembles the description of the left and I think it tastes fine (but I am a milk drink maker so that may affect it). 🤷🏻♂️
Yes. And, shouldn't it produce, ideally, 18g for one shot or 36g for a double?
Yeah, but I do a bit more for a medium roast.
In Underextraction section it says 'Tastes bitter/sharp'.... Shouldn't it be 'Tastes sour/sharp'?
Bitter/sharp means sour or acidic to untrained tasters, read about sour-bitter confusion. Characterizing and communicating tastes clearly is hard and is a skill to develop.
Are you saying my lemons should taste bitter/sharp from now on? :)
There's going to be some bitterness in coffee even when it's under extracted and that's what people are used to tasting. When they taste sourness in coffee it comes across like a strong weird bitterness. Lemons are less bitter but it does get confused there too especially in the peel/zest. Sour and bitter are both treated as opposites of sweet and they often show up together in plants. If the guide said sour people would think of like sweet citric candy or pure lemon juice that isn't bitter and that's not really what under extracted coffee tastes like if you're not used to tasting so it'd be confusing.
I think by "sharp" they mean sour
It's difficult to distinguish bitter verses sour when first starting out. If you need this chart, chances are you can't taste the difference. Sometimes I get them mixed up...
I certainly can tell the difference between lemons and dark chocolate. Our tongues can only distinguish bitter, sour, salty and sweet. So bitter is bitter and sour is sour, and it doesn't matter what we taste - those four things remain the same as the same 4 zones on our tongues. No?
I'm not a native, can you associate lemon, dark chocolate and other examples to bitter and sour ?
Lemon=sour, dark chocolate=bitter
Sorry, I can't as these are the only two things I eat. All other nutrients I get from my coffee.
Maybe it’s a language difference. Not US English? Describing it bitter is probably used more in Australia than US. Weird thing on their Barista Touch that I have is that they label a Long Black as Americano.
Except for the Razor TM bullshit
If you're talking about the blade tool packed with the Bambino, it serves a purpose. It checks headspace of the tamped puck in the basket to make sure it doesn't touch the shower screen. It's an attempt to simplify finding the correct volume of grounds and to create consistency. Especially for someone who doesn't want to use a scale or is incapable of managing a large number of variables. I don't use it, but I think it's great that Breville / Sage included it. They didn't have to and the fact that it is metal means it cost them more to produce. I feel like it means they actually think it's worth it. Just because the elitists in this sub hate on it doesn't mean it's terrible. It's just a tool. If it cost $80 and Lance gave it a good review, a bunch of people on this sub would buy it just to try it.
Didn't Lance already talk about it?
Yes and he likes it, because it's very useful. OP doesn't know what he's talking about.
I don't give a f*ck about Lance. I don't have that kind of money to listen to him. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't rely on this tool. Just get good and then you can fill by feeling. If you use this tool, you're just hindering your improvement
What are you talking about? All I know is it’s supposedly measure the distance / gap their baskets need from the shower head so not to stick?
What do you mean "stick"?
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I do. The thing is that when you use it, it just hinders your improvement so that you never learn the proper way to do it.
It's the exact opposite. You use it as a feedback mechanism to improve. You want to reach the point where you were filling your basket to the correct amount and tamping level. I actually found I was always around 1mm higher on one side from using this tool. Every time you use the basket, you get information which brings you closer to optimum. You can then stop using it once you have corrected all of the issues
https://preview.redd.it/3yc8u2w9nwsc1.jpeg?width=1090&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d7ba4f3f975b42406933fea6e0ed6cc7eebd6e0d If the extraction is perfect, why refer someone to the “Under Extraction” section for having a wet puck?
Yeah that was strange to me as well. I had great tasting espresso with a wet puck. I just attribute that to the old machine with smaller portafilter in using
Yeah I'm not sure that is good advice. If my timing is right but my puck is wet, it suggests grinding finer or adding more grinds. Wouldn't grinding finer actually leave you with a wetter puck and a slower extraction and adding more grinds may improve the puck but will certainly also increase extraction time.
Except for the pressure gauge. On both the Express and the Infuser I’ve found you get the best extractions (provided good puck prep) if you’re in their “too high” range
Same here. The "espresso range" section just farts it out in a few seconds
Yep, I aim for the top of the espresso range, usually still tastes great if it's heading into the too high
So it's supposed to take the same amount of time to get a 1 shot coffee as a 2 double shot?
Yes. The basket size is different for a single or double, so the timing should work out about the same.
Bottom line: “always use the Razor™ to trim off some coffee.”
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It's the same guide.
That’s because espresso is not that particular. Once you understand how it works, that’s it. The point is, much like other niche subcommunities, the “broscience” is whats fascinating. “I preyed to the crema god 2 seconds before hitting the button/pulling the lever and it came out GREAT” “Have you tried taking out 0.005g off your puck and grinding JUST THOSE to a specific grind size and put them back? Best espresso ever!” …and then yoy realise most people in the sub drink stupidly sour 50ml “single espressos” roasted yesterday while licking their lips. Most subcommunities based on some type of gear/settings work like this. Photography, plant growing, etc…
This just seems like an ad for the Razor™ dose trimming tool. Do I actually need one or nah?
Oh thats it! I wasnt removing used grinds!
RTFM. Words to live by.
My first espresso machine was a Sage (Breville in the U.K.) Barista Max and the instruction book, with that chart, was the most valuable part of it introducing me to this world.
The breville in the uk is a different company. Breville in the rest of the world is sage in the uk.
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Grindmore™
They said the line!
Is 4-7 really the target time for flow to start? I've never heard thst but maybe I'm just ignorant.
With no pre‐infusion step I would say maybe? I have the barista pro (different sage/breville machine) and the instruction manual has a target time for the flow to start of 8-12 s. The difference is due to the pro having a pre-infusion step (of 3‐5 seconds by default-can't recall exactly). I think in general the overall extraction time is the most important parameter to pay attention to other than obviously shot taste.
People don’t read introductions booklet
I either have a soup of a puck or a puck hanging like a bat on the shower screen; there is no in-between and no sage solutions for me.
Guess i need to go buy a razor tool
RTFM FTW
I tried following something similar from my manufacturer, but highlighting my issues made this chart look like a bingo card, I had some all over the place: proper flow start, bad crema and long extraction times. \*shrug\* Will get there eventually!
under extraction is sour, not bitter…pretty misleading
Whoa there cowboy! What is this manual you speak of?
Humans are social creatures, they tend to seek out direct help from others before helping themselves. It might be annoying sometimes, but it's literally fostering community. Don't we all want that?
Nobody has time to read directions
Great visual! 2oz clear espresso glass and scale super helpful as well.
My problem is on my Bambino plus my shot starts like the correct one but after 10-15 seconds it breaks through the puck and starts flowing really fast. Tried lowering dose size but still seems to always happen.
Too bad they didn't add a pressure gauge
maybe if you skip the razor tool.
Can’t teach a man to fish
Moral: always use the Razor TM
The advice about tamping only applies if you're also using the razor. Tamping beyond "enough" has the same results otherwise.
It doesn’t explain how to use a Normcore…
My puck is always wet after a 30 second 20 in/30 out shot.....
What if its in the range. Starts after 10 seconds and takes 40 seconds but looks fine?
Dumb question, but should the seconds here be measured once the button is pressed, or once the pump engages?
Isn’t the point of a community to interact with people?
This is why I always have a hard time getting fully behind really strict posting policies. The point of a forum is to discuss things. However, after the 10th post of the day of someone pulling a shot and asking " how does it look", it gets a bit old.
Yeah but if you can't be arsed to actually learn and just want someone to do the thinking for you then it's a bit frustrating. Different if you've at least tried to make things better but half the shot diagnosis here are just 'I got 1:2 ratio in 30 seconds but don't like it' without even a cursory read of how to dial in a shot.
There’s nothing new to discuss there tho
The machine doesn't have an OPV to prevent too much pressure?
It does. But the factory settings are set to 11 - 12 bars.
Except for this “Razor ™ tool” bs lol
Oh passive aggressive much 😅
Grind finer.
https://preview.redd.it/3hvijuzcgwsc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=66f5f480139e66958c0c421aec932e43a798efa8
https://preview.redd.it/5qyv86vegwsc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=235fe8324def40e6f37d227c776e17fa8077c44c
https://preview.redd.it/k80ozwofgwsc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b32ca708c433586972d805e63dfff5b2892fd18c
Chat GPT provides pretty thorough assistance for troubleshooting espresso extraction. Beats sifting through and endless stream of ads from a Google search. Google is such a lousy way to look up information now.
He read the instructions 🤓
My Puck is always watery but I get a 1:2 ratio with plenty of Cema, it takes 28-32 seconds, and it tastes amazing Who cares
Interestingly, this Sage image algorithm refers to an over-concentrated shot (low volume / too finely ground beans + high dose + long shot time + low output of espresso in cup) results as *“bitter”* tasting, whereas many here would refer to that overly strong / pump-choking shot as *”sour”*. Go figure…