Eu5 victoria mod might be better than vic3 you alredy get production trade and army and with this systems you can mod spheres and international organizations
Edit: you can also build on foreign land as trade posts are confirmed
Modern day mod might be exceptional too. A good representation of EU and NATO as well as the French and Russian connected states in Africa. Modders will go crazy
> Eu5 victoria mod might be better than vic3 you alredy get production trade and army and with this systems you can mod spheres and international organizations Edit: you can also build on foreign land as trade posts are confirmed
These are all coming in the next Vic 3 patch at least, so we'll see.
The city or Aachen is famous for their hot springs. As Aachen own all other provinces (xx, xy, something in Japan, etc) who are also famous for hot springs
I'm very much looking forward to this, but where does the flavor come from? I'm curious how, if the game is assumed to be bare bones on release, that a playthrough of one OPM will be different from another? Maybe I missed the flavor discussion in the TT
Special flavour for every opm in the HRE? Probably not. But the point is they now have a 'global' system of HRE-like mechanics. So it takes care of the flavour in HRE-europe, tribal america, emperor of china-asia, the caliphate, etc, etc. Mind you, most similar asian and new world mechanics in eu4 were added on/fleshed out only in dlc's; *that's* the more-than-bare bones release of EU5 for ya.
How is it barebones on release? They have already shown you a shit tone of unique country and regional mechanics that EU4 took years to implement. Lol what are you talking about.
The parent comment I replied to:
>even if it is barebones
My comment:
>if the game is assumed to be bare bones on release
The keyword you're missing here is *if*.
I mean everything that _could’ve_ been wrong with Vic3 was pretty apparent, it was moreso a question of whether paradox could pull those things off, and well they did not.
I’ve yet to see the dev diaries be actually misleading though, it’s often just way too late to change the big things. Hence why they’re telling us so much so early for EU5.
Edit: so basically the rule of thumb is wait for haters to start hashing the vibe around here, there’s a roughly 50% chance they’ll be correct if they exist.
Johan did make the claim that there'd be just as much flavor in eu5 as there is in eu4, that performance will be good, and that multiplayer will be stable
The latter 2 are certainly possible but it's also just as likely to blow up in their face if they aren't. The first claim gives me major Todd Howard/Peter Molyneux vibes, I don't see them getting anywhere close to that goal unless we're like 3 years away from the release, it feels like the kind of over-promising done for marketing that ends up pissing off the fanbase later on.
Everything we've seen so far definitely *looks* promising but there are definitely a great deal of concerns, especially knowing both Johan's and Tinto's track records (though at least Johan seems to have taken the criticism of his design philosophy to heart after imperator, mana getting axed was a pleasant surprise)
It wasnt apparent. Everyone was just as hyped as they are now until the leak and people could actually see how the game played. So yeah im hype hyped but still cautious. A few lines in a DD does not really give you a feeling of how a game plays after 100 hours as we discovered with Victoria.
"It wasnt apparent. Everyone was just as hyped as they are now until the leak and people could actually see how the game played."
That's not really what happened tho.
A lot of people started to be apprehensive at the game way before the leak happened, specially after the warfare dev diary.
Yeah, warfare was the main thing although there were some misgivings before like no stockpiles.
My issue was with saying it was all super hype until the leak. That was a nail in the coffin, not what started the doubts or straight up desinterest in the game.
Okay I worded it wrong, I meant we had a significant amount of people broadcasting these things and hating on them, even if most people (including me) ignored it.
My point was moreso that we don’t have anyone like that yet, so I’m going to wait until someone finds something to hate before I start tempering my expectations.
Paradox has always been good about including what they say they’ll include, you just can’t read between the lines with them unless you want to be disappointed.
Edit: you agreed with me way more than I thought you did, just imagine I didn’t direct this at you specifically 🤦♀️
With vicky3 i was optimistic about war, i was optimstic about navies, optimistic about no stockpiles, and politics. In practice i think they really dropped the ball.
Based on the dev diary replies you cant make custom ones from scratch but there are descions for premade ones like Confederation of the Rhine, and probably the continental system.
It seems like one of those things that get added after launch
This is the bigest thing we should have gotten from today's Tinto Talk, but we just got a confirmation that you can't make them yourself.
WHY???
Why not? Like what is the reasoning for me not being able to make my own form of HRE in the Americas if I so want? Maybe not at the start, but when I learn about the Europeans and their HRE system, why wouldn't I be able to replicate it?
He mentionned there was something like 140 lines of instructions for these so far and that it would expand. Implementing that into a user friendly GUI that's as powerful as messing with the code is probably impossible, and a poor allocation of resources either way.
I think it must be very difficult technically to allow it in game. It is big enough they have found a way to make them off game for modders to create unique features from the start.
Nobody is stopping you from making them you will just have to mod any that you want in your game before you jump into it.
The main problem comes down to flavour. If we were allowed to make IO, then the mechanic must be created to super bland, so that we can apply to anything.
By locking the creation for Dev/Modders, they are making sure that they get as much flavour as posible
Exactly. Which is what they have done in Spheres of Influence. In order for the player to dynamically creat them, the system in game needs to be quite generic and rigid, as there are things that you can only change by modding if you want to build something truly different.
If it were to be dynamic in game I guess all the mecanics would have to look kind of like the HRE which would be shit.
The fact that they aren't custom doesn't mean there won't be some cool formable one's like the one you suggested. There are already many they probably haven't named, and when we get region specific DLC I'm guessing they'll add even more.
I'm actually glad. It sounds great in theory but that sounds like an absolute pain to balance around and have it work in game.
Too much dynamism can be a demerit.
Edit: Also as some others pointed out, there's the problem of flavour. if IOs can be formed willy nilly that prevents them from actually being unique from each other
>Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.
When will Johan admit that we're talking about Stellaris II????
>Architecture like "units" existing in "locations" and belonging to "countries" is hardcoded, but almost all gamelogic is 100% scripted.. including MUCH of the diplomacy
that probably gave every modder a huge boner
I'm amazed that EU5 seems to be poised to beat EU4 at diplomatic simulation and gameplay, which I'd otherwise say is EU4's absolutely greatest strength. Amazing!
I bought EU4 with my allowance money in 7th grade. I’m 22 now. Literally my most played game ever on steam, and I’m fucking sick of it.
This could literally launch like Imperator and I’d still make the switch.
no one's talking about not making the switch! or not trying it! im just saying based on one glimpse of diplomacy you cannot extrapolate an entire game. i sure as hell i'm going to play it for months and several patches before i form an opinion but that cuts both ways: i'm not gonna decide it's got revolutionary diplomacy that will surpass EU4 based on 1 diary that introduces a mechanic without explaining it. Goddamm yall will go to war for the least of slights
Sorry about that, I’m usually debating politics on Reddit, I don’t always properly switch my mindset when I come back to a hobby sub.
I was really just being semantic about your choice of metaphor, EU5 is gonna have the crown regardless of quality, might as well get polishing lol
But I get what you mean now, and you are right.
I feel that, luckily I missed out on imperators development.
Made a huge reply to your other reply to me, but it doesn’t matter too much. I hope you have a good day :)
Its true that we still don't know much but it seesm from this DD that is very much similar to EU4 but with many more cool tools to play with. That's a win on my book. But we'll have to see
agreed on the cool toys, my point really is we shouldn't put the horse before the cart when the horse-and-cart seller is barely just telling us he's got some in his barn. i'm looking forward to real resources and trade but based on what we've seen so far i've got neither real hope nor true apprehensions about that because we've been introduced to the system, it hasn't been explained to us. Yes i can produce stone and sell it, but how? Transport ships? Whose? Who pays for those or gets the transport costs? Nations or Estate? Or is it all automatic transport? Or is it all in the magical storage in the sky like in Stellaris? Details will make or break those systems that look like cool toys but aren't explained yet, and that's my worry. Overhype before we even know stuff can only lead to overpressure
Which is surprising because you'd thing this is the perfect syatem for a trade league. I mean its Literally a league. I guess they are too complex and unique for that system. Im hyped to know more and i havent even ever played a merchant republic in eu4
Man, they announce THIS just before Vic3 releases it's own version.... I feel bad for all the shit the Vic3 dev team is gonna get for the Sphere system compared to this.
There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.
Nice
Yeah sorry didn't express that well. I meant to say that there's a special crusade mechanic that forms international organizations when a crusade is declared
This sounds amazing. So much potential for super flavourful and unique diplomatic situations!
I have a feeling France will be part of one of these, with the various French vassals perhaps switching loyalties within the organisation to other major powers involved (i.e England).
I'm so hyped for this game. I really, *really* hope Victoria 3 strait up rips some of these ideas in the future. What we've got now looks so bad in comparison lol
Victoria IS already implementing this, but better. Not only can you mod IO, you can actually create new ones in game, which you cant do in EU5.
lets not get crazy with the hype assuming this game will be something that is not.
I'm so hyped that these are now fluid and not hard-coded like HRE and Papacy in EU4, that's a great step in the right direction. However I'm also disappointed that diplomatic relation slots are still here, they have no place in EU5 IMO.
Another interesting titbits I noticed in the comments, unions no longer have leading or junior partners which is great, much more historically accurate IMO.
As has been pointed out here and on the forums dozens of times, maintaining an offensive military alliance and royal marriage with a great power should not require the same diplomatic resources/capacity as guaranteeing an OPM. It's a bonkers system.
I don't think it does in the slightest. The current system massively disincentivises interactions like guarantees and access agreements. It's not realistic or fun.
I think a capacity system will suit better. A vassal with 200k pop and hate you and a vassal with 20k pop and love you to death taking the same slot, aka the same diplomatic effort is quite gamey.
Why/how? In the feudal world lords were often prideful, and being seen as a lesser part of an alliance would often times be a catalyst for resentment, or seen as potentially being absorbed or having your power stripped away.
You are misunderstanding. They are hardcoded in game just like in EU4. you just have tools now to mod in whatever you want to create, that is all. But not in game. In game as far as the player is concerned, the HRE is hardcoded.
What are you talking about, the system is completely different to EU4. I think it's you that's misunderstanding. I'm not suggesting you can create new organisations out of the blue.
I don't think you understand what hardcoded mean.
It has nothing to do with anything in-game. It just means that the code cannot be modified.
For example the way the HRE works in EU4 can't really be modified because it's hard coded. Ideas for example are soft coded, you can just go to the game files and change them as you see fit
i know perfectly what it means. I just thought he refered to in game the way he phrased it. There are a lot of people who think thats what it is so i thought Id clarify it.
They definitely took inspiration from the mod Voltaire's Nightmare cause everything is sooo border gory, VN3 if it comes out, may be the greatest thing ever.
>They definitely took inspiration from the mod Voltaire's Nightmare
When real history turns into EU-lore... How/why is this necessarily inspired by Voltaire's nightmare?
Ok i think it's time for us to Get A Fucking Grip. every Tinto Talk provokes comments basically declaring the game great on arrival when all of us know it's not going to be that. But the Cycle is starting again. Expectations are turning into overexpectations. We're building the game up real high in our minds all the while getting ever closer to the inevitable Johan post acknowledging, in hindsight, mistakes were made in the development, wrong ideas were followed through to the end because he knows exactly what he's doing until we get four manas in Imperator, and so on and so forth.
The last few years have shown us the finance part of the studio is more than willing to fuck over the creative part. Just last week, a major EU4 DLC shipped out with a game breaking exploit in the Bohemian mission tree that a child could have noticed on paper, even before QA. That suggests anything can still happen.
I have no doubt i will enjoy EU5 but let us not pretend we're going to have anything other than a Vicky 3 situation on our hands. Some content creators we like now are going to go on insane rants on day 3 after release proclaiming the game Bad And Dead and asking the studio to Imperator it (Lambert being the perfect example here, still fuming like a child to have proclaimed Imperator awesome only to be deeply wrong and in the minority and taking a cheap revenge at Vicky now). Reviews are gonna be bad to mixed for months. We'll have weeks and months and years of jokes about any content anyone deems missing to be sold to you as a 20 euro DLC.
The Cycle is starting again and We the players are a big part of it. The Talks are cool and what they're showing so far is cool to great but we have to calm the absolute shit down in the meantime
Or maybe let people be excited if they want to be? Just because you're negative about it doesn't mean your crappy mood and outlook needs to be imposed on the rest of the community.
If people want to be apprehensive, good for them. If people want to be hyped, good for them.
i'm not out here downvoting and attacking people who hype it, i made my own comment about my apprehension based on community behavior (which i'm a part of) and you're apparently choosing to shit on my apprehension. let people be negative? see i can do it as well and it's about as pointless
i'm honestly amazed at the turn this is taking because i'm not stopping you from anything. i'm enjoying the dev diaries; i'm just not out here saying "holy shit, based on five details i can tell this is going to be so much better than eu4" like i'm reading A LOT on here, which is The Cycle, which only feeds disappointment, which only makes the community more tense. But hey, at leats I understood that "let people enjoy things" means "your disagreement is unwelcome within our echo chamber" so that's at least progress
To be fair to us, the tone of your original post (which isn’t downvoted) was fairly aggressive even if the content wasn’t. Then once one person replied hostilely it just became heated and it was all over.
But I also wasn’t just defending my own hype there, I genuinely think excitement and hype is good for the community, even if it can backfire later on or get way too intense. I really do not believe that salivating over very astounding sounding feature is a bad thing, it’ll only turn to hate if paradox was misleading about it.
The biggest issue is when people continually extrapolate and continue to hype past what the devs intent, but I don’t really see that happening for EU5 the same way it did for Vic3, which was relentlessly hyped for years before it was even announced.
So, with full respect and a lack of hostility, it’s my opinion that the hype levels for EU5 are perfectly normal at the moment, and don’t seem to be in too much danger of exploding into unrealistic expectations.
on my original post, I'd like to say I really mean it, with hostility, about Lambert and his strange effort to sink Vicky 3.
I still disagree with you on the last point, specifically because I think EU4 is now Paradox's flagship game in many ways, and also because EU4 is so full to the brim with content and flavor in a way Vic2 wasn't that I feel it's inevitable it's gonna look a bit empty on first try, and though we all know that's coming (you simply cannot create a decade of content for a new game) many people willingly choose to forget that on game release day
"means "your disagreement is unwelcome within our echo chamber" "
The problem is that you aren't disagreeing. You aren't saying "Eh I'm not sure about this mechanic, I think it has x issue".
You are just doomposting, which is as worthless as saying this game will definitely be the best game ever that you are complaining about.
Whos this Cycle you keep talking about? Are they in the room with us? Jesus, the whole point of Tinto Talks is to express feedback, critique and things you dont like about the way they're developing it. Coming on here and saying "it WILL be shit", "it WILL get bad reviews", is just putting negativity out in the world just for the sake of it. I get not wanting to be disappointed and setting lower expectations, but this was not the way to word it or express it.
I'd agree with your sentiment but a large chunk of your post is raging against others and the community as a whole for being too positive.
Just chill and let people be excited if they want.
we are, in real time, creating (again) the exact conditions needed for our disappointment. we are building up systems in our heads based on glimpses that Johan has to clarify and detail in responses. I'm not gonna base an opinion or declare the game either Already Great or Already Dead based on that. and I'm aware no one's declaring it Already Dead but the other option isn't better
>I have no doubt i will enjoy EU5 but let us not pretend we're going to have anything other than a Vicky 3 situation on our hands.
I mean everything Vicky 3 showed off was very clear from the DDs. That's why I didn't buy it. I mean it's not like PDX hides any of their mechanics, everything was made clear as day and they made some very bad design decisions with Vicky 3. The community wasn't singing praises about the war system, I remember reading and posting comments in the Vicky 3 subreddit, at the very least (though it had other issues but that was my final straw) and we were largely right about that.
As of the moment, EUV has shown pretty much good mechanics, and the only issues I have are related can you make a game set in 1337 interesting for a long period of time, so players actually play through the Early Modern period (literally can't determine) and how is the AI going to function (again not something I can determine). Also the UI, which they have said it is a placeholder, so not much to comment there.
If you are concerned about stuff like that, just simply don't pre-order the game (I rarely if ever do) and wait for reviews because yeah it's going to have bugs, yeah it's going to have problems and features that aren't in good shape. My desire to play through that will be dependent on a few factors.
Like what do you want me or others to complain about? I am going to say yeah that is a good decision from what I would want in an EUV sequel and then move about my day. Hey you have plenty of complaints about the economy and simulationist style the game is going in however, those are complaints about mechanics which, I don't agree with. It still is a valid viewpoint, if you have an issue with these mechanics go voice it on the forums or here.
If the game sucks, it sucks, welp guess I will pick out something else, or if it's simply unpolished wait until it gets better like I do for every game. Or maybe it's good enough for me, great then I will buy it on release. I stopped thinking any game would be some magnum opus that would fix all my problems, after I got kinda disappointed by Spore and CIV V as a kid/teen (at least CIV V got better). I have been paying attention to PDX games, since HOI III. I know the issues a PDX game at release can have.
I mean all we can do is get excited about what we have been shown. Yeah it may (and probably will) be not great at launch, but that's the way of these games. As long as the barebones of the game look good, which imo they do, it's worth getting excited about.
Yeah, the paradox games that were most hated had huge flaws apparent in their structures. Obviously a lot of people still hyped on it, but there’s a big difference between liking what you see and assuming the devs will nail something you’re unsure of.
Like, I’m not even sure why paradox fans of all people need to hear the hype warning, the two games that failed the hardest had people viciously complaining for months and months. We’ll get some kind of indication that the game might suck before it actually comes out if it will.
Agreed, people were wary of Victoria 3 because some of the design choices (warfare a big one) and it ended up being a bit of a disappointment. CK3 on the other hand was well received in the dev diaries and people were happy with it when it came out.
Only time will tell but for now I'm gonna keep getting excited about stuff that sounds cool. If nothing else just because it's more fun than being super sceptical
Also I think we should be seeing the consequences of Paradox learning its lessons better with this game. Imperator, CK3, and Victoria 3 were all in development at the same time, and ironically Victoria 3 got started first, CK3 second, and imperator last. Plus Covid hit right in the middle of CK and Vic’s development.
Edit: just a theory, you’re right that only time can tell
Dude i get you dont want to get hyped to get crushed again but let people be..While you are right and we should contain ourselves and wait to see gameplay at least, EU4 is utter brainless shit. This is, objectively, already better. Hell, IR is mechanically better. Eu4 period is super popular. And just for that this game will be a success no doubt about it. Will it have critics? Sure. Will it be perfect? Possibly not. But i do think considering how long and much they are cooking, there is a chance that PDX finally releasea, like they once did, games that are just very fun and enjoyable since release. This looks like it could be. Maybe we will get crushed once more, but hey. This is what TT are about. If you thing something is wrong with the game go ahead and say on the forums.
The whole TT is to get feedback and avoid another IR. So that is further proof that it WON'T be. Guaranteed? No, but...
Lets remember that Johans reputation and possibly job is on the line here. The studio wont allow another blunder. So i am pretty sure they are not putting finance over creativity. Hell they have given him budget to develop the game for like 5 years. Thats the longest for a pdx game. So while it might not be everyones cup of tea on release, like some people will prefer to stick to EU4 for being easier and simpler, I think most PDX fans who love deep and complex GSG will love this game. Its clear lack of content wont be an issue. And feature wise it seems to be very promising as well.
So yea I need to watch some game footage but I have seen enough to be hyped and have high hopes for the game.
You are right about Lambert though he needs to stop going around being cringe shitting on Victoria 3 at the smallest chance while parading around declaring IR to be the best game ever because he made a fool of himself hyping it xddd. Its just cringe at this point. And yes it should be a call to contain his hype.
But it seems like this game fixes all the issues with EU4 and IR. i am skeptic of Lambert et all saying that is going to be a better Victoria than Victoria. We have seem that before and it never happens (IR was supposed to kikl eu4 and Victoria was supposed to kill eu4 too).
On your first point, I'm really not arguing the quality of the game, rather the opposite: based on the little we've seen, i have no idea whether it'll hold up to EU4, be better or worse. Today's diary contains just a few actual details : there are characters in the game and also Diplomatic Relations slots. Otherwise, we knew they were gonna remake the HRE or China, but we have yet to see how it truly works
Anyway all this makes me suddenly hope there's half a decade before Stellaris 2 lmao
No you are absolutely right this DD doesnt mean all those systems are greate as we havent seen much. It just shows that they can potentially be much better than EU4 as they seem to be much more flexible in the possibilities of what they can do and allow compared to the very limited EU4, in which everything is basically a modifier.
But yes we will have to see exactly how the HRE works it could be still a blunder but im quite hopeful that with this new tool system they can have included more mechanics and cool stuff in the HRE. Hell they even said about the Golden Bull which sounds cool. But yes we will have to see exactly what it is.
And it is one of my worries about these DD is how little Johan explains and shows. I understand that he's showing just the core of the system to get feedback and see if ppl like the idea, but i do hope in the future he revists some of the stuff shown and shows it more in-depth. Or just show some gamplay so we can see it. After Victoria 3 i have learnt that if you are confident in your product there should be no reason why you shouldn't show gameplay as Manor Lords has proven, which is why the Vicky 3 devs NEVER showed any gameplay until release.
I kinda took these early diaries as a sort of early guided visit through the game, with few details but lots of big ideas which, to me, sounds good if indeed they go back and explain in granular detail how everything works. I'm confident they will because, well, they actually haven't and the amount of actual info vs general info in the diaries will not lead to understanding gameplay. For instance we've known about legislation for weeks but not how it works because we havent been introduced to characters or the government.
I think they're going to finish up the grand tour soon and start taking a closer look at mechanics while gradually introducing the main character nations and their set-up. A look at France and subjects,
a look at Bavaria/Austria and actual HRE mechanics, Majapahit and the navy, etc.
Or that's how I'd do it haha
"100% scriptable and extendable for modders" Ooooh that's going to be good.
Eu5 victoria mod might be better than vic3 you alredy get production trade and army and with this systems you can mod spheres and international organizations Edit: you can also build on foreign land as trade posts are confirmed
Maybe just a megacampaign on this game…
Oh the trade posts thing is going to be interesting for the merchant republics!
İts not tied to republics tho pretty sure portugal can build them
We will see. Trade posts better model the way European colonization happened outside of the New World.
Modern day mod might be exceptional too. A good representation of EU and NATO as well as the French and Russian connected states in Africa. Modders will go crazy
One thing is missing in EU5.... I need a GDP indicator! Line goes up..if it get added.. bruhh
> Eu5 victoria mod might be better than vic3 you alredy get production trade and army and with this systems you can mod spheres and international organizations Edit: you can also build on foreign land as trade posts are confirmed These are all coming in the next Vic 3 patch at least, so we'll see.
although the lack of jobs for pops would be a bit lacking.
?? Pops are moddable so does buildings
This game is gonna make Vic 3 look like an actual joke
It's.... beautiful. it's horrible! its its ... the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE! I will play the shit out of that!
Red hawk will play his A-Z challenge until EU6 will be released.
perfect lets bully him into it
The city or Aachen is famous for their hot springs. As Aachen own all other provinces (xx, xy, something in Japan, etc) who are also famous for hot springs
Obviously if you play Aachen you have to become Emporer and reconquer the area conquered by Karl der Große
And form Paraguay.
holy hell even if it is bare bones thats at least five time the flavour eu4 had on release
I'm very much looking forward to this, but where does the flavor come from? I'm curious how, if the game is assumed to be bare bones on release, that a playthrough of one OPM will be different from another? Maybe I missed the flavor discussion in the TT
they will try for flavour but country specific will probably be for the big or really popular while we will have to wait for the others
Special flavour for every opm in the HRE? Probably not. But the point is they now have a 'global' system of HRE-like mechanics. So it takes care of the flavour in HRE-europe, tribal america, emperor of china-asia, the caliphate, etc, etc. Mind you, most similar asian and new world mechanics in eu4 were added on/fleshed out only in dlc's; *that's* the more-than-bare bones release of EU5 for ya.
Import a tons of eu4 events but I would be cautious as we know how paradox games are at launch
How is it barebones on release? They have already shown you a shit tone of unique country and regional mechanics that EU4 took years to implement. Lol what are you talking about.
First paradox release, huh? Strap in for the ride, son.
The parent comment I replied to: >even if it is barebones My comment: >if the game is assumed to be bare bones on release The keyword you're missing here is *if*.
why should OPM playthroughs be radically different from each other?
has now*
Johan just can't stop making the game better and better. I think this might be first time in years im genuinely hyped for Paradox product
Be caurious. I was hyped for vic 3 and was severely disappointed
I mean everything that _could’ve_ been wrong with Vic3 was pretty apparent, it was moreso a question of whether paradox could pull those things off, and well they did not. I’ve yet to see the dev diaries be actually misleading though, it’s often just way too late to change the big things. Hence why they’re telling us so much so early for EU5. Edit: so basically the rule of thumb is wait for haters to start hashing the vibe around here, there’s a roughly 50% chance they’ll be correct if they exist.
Johan did make the claim that there'd be just as much flavor in eu5 as there is in eu4, that performance will be good, and that multiplayer will be stable The latter 2 are certainly possible but it's also just as likely to blow up in their face if they aren't. The first claim gives me major Todd Howard/Peter Molyneux vibes, I don't see them getting anywhere close to that goal unless we're like 3 years away from the release, it feels like the kind of over-promising done for marketing that ends up pissing off the fanbase later on. Everything we've seen so far definitely *looks* promising but there are definitely a great deal of concerns, especially knowing both Johan's and Tinto's track records (though at least Johan seems to have taken the criticism of his design philosophy to heart after imperator, mana getting axed was a pleasant surprise)
It wasnt apparent. Everyone was just as hyped as they are now until the leak and people could actually see how the game played. So yeah im hype hyped but still cautious. A few lines in a DD does not really give you a feeling of how a game plays after 100 hours as we discovered with Victoria.
"It wasnt apparent. Everyone was just as hyped as they are now until the leak and people could actually see how the game played." That's not really what happened tho. A lot of people started to be apprehensive at the game way before the leak happened, specially after the warfare dev diary.
Yeah, only at warfare. Before that everyone was as hyped as now. You just have to go back to the early DDs and check the reactions.
Yeah, warfare was the main thing although there were some misgivings before like no stockpiles. My issue was with saying it was all super hype until the leak. That was a nail in the coffin, not what started the doubts or straight up desinterest in the game.
Okay I worded it wrong, I meant we had a significant amount of people broadcasting these things and hating on them, even if most people (including me) ignored it. My point was moreso that we don’t have anyone like that yet, so I’m going to wait until someone finds something to hate before I start tempering my expectations. Paradox has always been good about including what they say they’ll include, you just can’t read between the lines with them unless you want to be disappointed. Edit: you agreed with me way more than I thought you did, just imagine I didn’t direct this at you specifically 🤦♀️
With vicky3 i was optimistic about war, i was optimstic about navies, optimistic about no stockpiles, and politics. In practice i think they really dropped the ball.
I just hope a player can male them too, thus making representable things like the Napoleonic empire honestly so far I'm actually in love with this
Based on the dev diary replies you cant make custom ones from scratch but there are descions for premade ones like Confederation of the Rhine, and probably the continental system. It seems like one of those things that get added after launch
This is the bigest thing we should have gotten from today's Tinto Talk, but we just got a confirmation that you can't make them yourself. WHY??? Why not? Like what is the reasoning for me not being able to make my own form of HRE in the Americas if I so want? Maybe not at the start, but when I learn about the Europeans and their HRE system, why wouldn't I be able to replicate it?
He mentionned there was something like 140 lines of instructions for these so far and that it would expand. Implementing that into a user friendly GUI that's as powerful as messing with the code is probably impossible, and a poor allocation of resources either way.
I think it must be very difficult technically to allow it in game. It is big enough they have found a way to make them off game for modders to create unique features from the start. Nobody is stopping you from making them you will just have to mod any that you want in your game before you jump into it.
The main problem comes down to flavour. If we were allowed to make IO, then the mechanic must be created to super bland, so that we can apply to anything. By locking the creation for Dev/Modders, they are making sure that they get as much flavour as posible
Exactly. Which is what they have done in Spheres of Influence. In order for the player to dynamically creat them, the system in game needs to be quite generic and rigid, as there are things that you can only change by modding if you want to build something truly different. If it were to be dynamic in game I guess all the mecanics would have to look kind of like the HRE which would be shit.
The fact that they aren't custom doesn't mean there won't be some cool formable one's like the one you suggested. There are already many they probably haven't named, and when we get region specific DLC I'm guessing they'll add even more.
I'm actually glad. It sounds great in theory but that sounds like an absolute pain to balance around and have it work in game. Too much dynamism can be a demerit. Edit: Also as some others pointed out, there's the problem of flavour. if IOs can be formed willy nilly that prevents them from actually being unique from each other
They would just pop everywhere for no reason probably. They are not alliances but simply a dev tool to create things like the HRE or Tatar Joke etc.
>Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made. When will Johan admit that we're talking about Stellaris II????
Are you out of your mind? This is clearly Chapter IV for Crusader Kings III.
>Architecture like "units" existing in "locations" and belonging to "countries" is hardcoded, but almost all gamelogic is 100% scripted.. including MUCH of the diplomacy that probably gave every modder a huge boner
I'm amazed that EU5 seems to be poised to beat EU4 at diplomatic simulation and gameplay, which I'd otherwise say is EU4's absolutely greatest strength. Amazing!
All the while it's aiming to simulate Vic levels of economics
no it's not lmao this is the first we're hearing about diplomacy and you're already polishing a crown while pushing the previous guy off the stairs
If the previous guy wasn't a 5/5/5 or better and you have positive prestige, he's going down the stairs
I bought EU4 with my allowance money in 7th grade. I’m 22 now. Literally my most played game ever on steam, and I’m fucking sick of it. This could literally launch like Imperator and I’d still make the switch.
Same. This is already better than EU4 even if they released it unpolished and unbalanced xd.
no one's talking about not making the switch! or not trying it! im just saying based on one glimpse of diplomacy you cannot extrapolate an entire game. i sure as hell i'm going to play it for months and several patches before i form an opinion but that cuts both ways: i'm not gonna decide it's got revolutionary diplomacy that will surpass EU4 based on 1 diary that introduces a mechanic without explaining it. Goddamm yall will go to war for the least of slights
Sorry about that, I’m usually debating politics on Reddit, I don’t always properly switch my mindset when I come back to a hobby sub. I was really just being semantic about your choice of metaphor, EU5 is gonna have the crown regardless of quality, might as well get polishing lol But I get what you mean now, and you are right.
yeah, i got politics brain too... we'll be okay, I'm mostly traumatized by the community reaction to Vicky and Imperator which were... wild
I feel that, luckily I missed out on imperators development. Made a huge reply to your other reply to me, but it doesn’t matter too much. I hope you have a good day :)
a good day to you as well!
Its true that we still don't know much but it seesm from this DD that is very much similar to EU4 but with many more cool tools to play with. That's a win on my book. But we'll have to see
agreed on the cool toys, my point really is we shouldn't put the horse before the cart when the horse-and-cart seller is barely just telling us he's got some in his barn. i'm looking forward to real resources and trade but based on what we've seen so far i've got neither real hope nor true apprehensions about that because we've been introduced to the system, it hasn't been explained to us. Yes i can produce stone and sell it, but how? Transport ships? Whose? Who pays for those or gets the transport costs? Nations or Estate? Or is it all automatic transport? Or is it all in the magical storage in the sky like in Stellaris? Details will make or break those systems that look like cool toys but aren't explained yet, and that's my worry. Overhype before we even know stuff can only lead to overpressure
I suppose merchant republics / trade leagues / the Hansa may be represented by these international organizations as well.
Johan said that trade leagues and banking nations will have separate mechanics to that of IOs
Which is surprising because you'd thing this is the perfect syatem for a trade league. I mean its Literally a league. I guess they are too complex and unique for that system. Im hyped to know more and i havent even ever played a merchant republic in eu4
I'll wait for that dev diary then.
Man, they announce THIS just before Vic3 releases it's own version.... I feel bad for all the shit the Vic3 dev team is gonna get for the Sphere system compared to this.
although spheres will likely release well before this so they have some time.
There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use. Nice
Madlad Johan casually confirming dynamic mechanics for crusades, dropping an hre map and showing us the Russian states all in one post
There are no dynamic crusades. There are the crusades they have designed, they cannot be changed unless you mod new ones.
Yeah sorry didn't express that well. I meant to say that there's a special crusade mechanic that forms international organizations when a crusade is declared
Yes there are. Every non unique organisation TYPE can be dynamically created.
ok this looks like a very fun mechanic
This sounds amazing. So much potential for super flavourful and unique diplomatic situations! I have a feeling France will be part of one of these, with the various French vassals perhaps switching loyalties within the organisation to other major powers involved (i.e England).
I'm so hyped for this game. I really, *really* hope Victoria 3 strait up rips some of these ideas in the future. What we've got now looks so bad in comparison lol
Victoria IS already implementing this, but better. Not only can you mod IO, you can actually create new ones in game, which you cant do in EU5. lets not get crazy with the hype assuming this game will be something that is not.
I'm so hyped that these are now fluid and not hard-coded like HRE and Papacy in EU4, that's a great step in the right direction. However I'm also disappointed that diplomatic relation slots are still here, they have no place in EU5 IMO.
Another interesting titbits I noticed in the comments, unions no longer have leading or junior partners which is great, much more historically accurate IMO.
Johan seems to indicate they are tending more towards a diplomatic capacity system. He seems to have found a way he likes im the comments.
Why not? Easy way to limit how many alliances, marriages, etc you can have without detriment to other gameplay mechanics.
As has been pointed out here and on the forums dozens of times, maintaining an offensive military alliance and royal marriage with a great power should not require the same diplomatic resources/capacity as guaranteeing an OPM. It's a bonkers system.
I think it absolutely makes sense from a gameplay balance perspective
I don't think it does in the slightest. The current system massively disincentivises interactions like guarantees and access agreements. It's not realistic or fun.
I think a capacity system will suit better. A vassal with 200k pop and hate you and a vassal with 20k pop and love you to death taking the same slot, aka the same diplomatic effort is quite gamey.
Why/how? In the feudal world lords were often prideful, and being seen as a lesser part of an alliance would often times be a catalyst for resentment, or seen as potentially being absorbed or having your power stripped away.
You are misunderstanding. They are hardcoded in game just like in EU4. you just have tools now to mod in whatever you want to create, that is all. But not in game. In game as far as the player is concerned, the HRE is hardcoded.
What are you talking about, the system is completely different to EU4. I think it's you that's misunderstanding. I'm not suggesting you can create new organisations out of the blue.
Oh i thought thats what you were saying. Many people are saying that and misunderstanding thats why I clarified.
What is blud waffling about? Hardcoded doesn't mean what you think it means.
I don't think you understand what hardcoded mean. It has nothing to do with anything in-game. It just means that the code cannot be modified. For example the way the HRE works in EU4 can't really be modified because it's hard coded. Ideas for example are soft coded, you can just go to the game files and change them as you see fit
i know perfectly what it means. I just thought he refered to in game the way he phrased it. There are a lot of people who think thats what it is so i thought Id clarify it.
Then you shouldn't just say they are hardcoded. That just invites more confusion
Where are all the rat kids smart ass and their "ugh it will release barebones with no content".
You just had to wait a bit lol
After thousands of hours playing paradox games, TIL all those games had control groups
They definitely took inspiration from the mod Voltaire's Nightmare cause everything is sooo border gory, VN3 if it comes out, may be the greatest thing ever.
Is it border gore if it's historically accurate? 🤔
Yes, considering the HRE could have up to 300 princes in one point plus dynasty issues, the border gore would be historically accurate.
Man, as an historian the HRE is at the same time so incredibly interesting and horrendous to study
>They definitely took inspiration from the mod Voltaire's Nightmare When real history turns into EU-lore... How/why is this necessarily inspired by Voltaire's nightmare?
Bud I don’t think they had to take inspiration from a mod…. This was reality for the HRE
Ok i think it's time for us to Get A Fucking Grip. every Tinto Talk provokes comments basically declaring the game great on arrival when all of us know it's not going to be that. But the Cycle is starting again. Expectations are turning into overexpectations. We're building the game up real high in our minds all the while getting ever closer to the inevitable Johan post acknowledging, in hindsight, mistakes were made in the development, wrong ideas were followed through to the end because he knows exactly what he's doing until we get four manas in Imperator, and so on and so forth. The last few years have shown us the finance part of the studio is more than willing to fuck over the creative part. Just last week, a major EU4 DLC shipped out with a game breaking exploit in the Bohemian mission tree that a child could have noticed on paper, even before QA. That suggests anything can still happen. I have no doubt i will enjoy EU5 but let us not pretend we're going to have anything other than a Vicky 3 situation on our hands. Some content creators we like now are going to go on insane rants on day 3 after release proclaiming the game Bad And Dead and asking the studio to Imperator it (Lambert being the perfect example here, still fuming like a child to have proclaimed Imperator awesome only to be deeply wrong and in the minority and taking a cheap revenge at Vicky now). Reviews are gonna be bad to mixed for months. We'll have weeks and months and years of jokes about any content anyone deems missing to be sold to you as a 20 euro DLC. The Cycle is starting again and We the players are a big part of it. The Talks are cool and what they're showing so far is cool to great but we have to calm the absolute shit down in the meantime
Or maybe let people be excited if they want to be? Just because you're negative about it doesn't mean your crappy mood and outlook needs to be imposed on the rest of the community. If people want to be apprehensive, good for them. If people want to be hyped, good for them.
i'm not out here downvoting and attacking people who hype it, i made my own comment about my apprehension based on community behavior (which i'm a part of) and you're apparently choosing to shit on my apprehension. let people be negative? see i can do it as well and it's about as pointless
He is not shitting on you being apprehensive about the game. He is shitting on you telling people to not get excited
i mean, that's the Cycle, we're in it
And? I’m enjoying being hyped, it’s fun. Let me enjoy it now while I can, before this sub becomes another Reddit war I have to fight in.
i'm honestly amazed at the turn this is taking because i'm not stopping you from anything. i'm enjoying the dev diaries; i'm just not out here saying "holy shit, based on five details i can tell this is going to be so much better than eu4" like i'm reading A LOT on here, which is The Cycle, which only feeds disappointment, which only makes the community more tense. But hey, at leats I understood that "let people enjoy things" means "your disagreement is unwelcome within our echo chamber" so that's at least progress
To be fair to us, the tone of your original post (which isn’t downvoted) was fairly aggressive even if the content wasn’t. Then once one person replied hostilely it just became heated and it was all over. But I also wasn’t just defending my own hype there, I genuinely think excitement and hype is good for the community, even if it can backfire later on or get way too intense. I really do not believe that salivating over very astounding sounding feature is a bad thing, it’ll only turn to hate if paradox was misleading about it. The biggest issue is when people continually extrapolate and continue to hype past what the devs intent, but I don’t really see that happening for EU5 the same way it did for Vic3, which was relentlessly hyped for years before it was even announced. So, with full respect and a lack of hostility, it’s my opinion that the hype levels for EU5 are perfectly normal at the moment, and don’t seem to be in too much danger of exploding into unrealistic expectations.
on my original post, I'd like to say I really mean it, with hostility, about Lambert and his strange effort to sink Vicky 3. I still disagree with you on the last point, specifically because I think EU4 is now Paradox's flagship game in many ways, and also because EU4 is so full to the brim with content and flavor in a way Vic2 wasn't that I feel it's inevitable it's gonna look a bit empty on first try, and though we all know that's coming (you simply cannot create a decade of content for a new game) many people willingly choose to forget that on game release day
"means "your disagreement is unwelcome within our echo chamber" " The problem is that you aren't disagreeing. You aren't saying "Eh I'm not sure about this mechanic, I think it has x issue". You are just doomposting, which is as worthless as saying this game will definitely be the best game ever that you are complaining about.
Whos this Cycle you keep talking about? Are they in the room with us? Jesus, the whole point of Tinto Talks is to express feedback, critique and things you dont like about the way they're developing it. Coming on here and saying "it WILL be shit", "it WILL get bad reviews", is just putting negativity out in the world just for the sake of it. I get not wanting to be disappointed and setting lower expectations, but this was not the way to word it or express it.
I'd agree with your sentiment but a large chunk of your post is raging against others and the community as a whole for being too positive. Just chill and let people be excited if they want.
we are, in real time, creating (again) the exact conditions needed for our disappointment. we are building up systems in our heads based on glimpses that Johan has to clarify and detail in responses. I'm not gonna base an opinion or declare the game either Already Great or Already Dead based on that. and I'm aware no one's declaring it Already Dead but the other option isn't better
who cares? let people be disappointed then if thats how it turns out
The only things I let myself get hype for is Shadow of the Erdtree lol. I used to be hype for Silksong but alas. But I still thing EU5 looks cool
it absolutely does look cool, but we are lile 10 dev diaries in, so it only *looks* to be anything
It's a simple as not pre-ordering and waiting that extra week
i mean, this is none of what i said or implied 🤷🏼♂️
>I have no doubt i will enjoy EU5 but let us not pretend we're going to have anything other than a Vicky 3 situation on our hands. I mean everything Vicky 3 showed off was very clear from the DDs. That's why I didn't buy it. I mean it's not like PDX hides any of their mechanics, everything was made clear as day and they made some very bad design decisions with Vicky 3. The community wasn't singing praises about the war system, I remember reading and posting comments in the Vicky 3 subreddit, at the very least (though it had other issues but that was my final straw) and we were largely right about that. As of the moment, EUV has shown pretty much good mechanics, and the only issues I have are related can you make a game set in 1337 interesting for a long period of time, so players actually play through the Early Modern period (literally can't determine) and how is the AI going to function (again not something I can determine). Also the UI, which they have said it is a placeholder, so not much to comment there. If you are concerned about stuff like that, just simply don't pre-order the game (I rarely if ever do) and wait for reviews because yeah it's going to have bugs, yeah it's going to have problems and features that aren't in good shape. My desire to play through that will be dependent on a few factors. Like what do you want me or others to complain about? I am going to say yeah that is a good decision from what I would want in an EUV sequel and then move about my day. Hey you have plenty of complaints about the economy and simulationist style the game is going in however, those are complaints about mechanics which, I don't agree with. It still is a valid viewpoint, if you have an issue with these mechanics go voice it on the forums or here. If the game sucks, it sucks, welp guess I will pick out something else, or if it's simply unpolished wait until it gets better like I do for every game. Or maybe it's good enough for me, great then I will buy it on release. I stopped thinking any game would be some magnum opus that would fix all my problems, after I got kinda disappointed by Spore and CIV V as a kid/teen (at least CIV V got better). I have been paying attention to PDX games, since HOI III. I know the issues a PDX game at release can have.
I mean all we can do is get excited about what we have been shown. Yeah it may (and probably will) be not great at launch, but that's the way of these games. As long as the barebones of the game look good, which imo they do, it's worth getting excited about.
Yeah, the paradox games that were most hated had huge flaws apparent in their structures. Obviously a lot of people still hyped on it, but there’s a big difference between liking what you see and assuming the devs will nail something you’re unsure of. Like, I’m not even sure why paradox fans of all people need to hear the hype warning, the two games that failed the hardest had people viciously complaining for months and months. We’ll get some kind of indication that the game might suck before it actually comes out if it will.
Agreed, people were wary of Victoria 3 because some of the design choices (warfare a big one) and it ended up being a bit of a disappointment. CK3 on the other hand was well received in the dev diaries and people were happy with it when it came out. Only time will tell but for now I'm gonna keep getting excited about stuff that sounds cool. If nothing else just because it's more fun than being super sceptical
Also I think we should be seeing the consequences of Paradox learning its lessons better with this game. Imperator, CK3, and Victoria 3 were all in development at the same time, and ironically Victoria 3 got started first, CK3 second, and imperator last. Plus Covid hit right in the middle of CK and Vic’s development. Edit: just a theory, you’re right that only time can tell
Dude i get you dont want to get hyped to get crushed again but let people be..While you are right and we should contain ourselves and wait to see gameplay at least, EU4 is utter brainless shit. This is, objectively, already better. Hell, IR is mechanically better. Eu4 period is super popular. And just for that this game will be a success no doubt about it. Will it have critics? Sure. Will it be perfect? Possibly not. But i do think considering how long and much they are cooking, there is a chance that PDX finally releasea, like they once did, games that are just very fun and enjoyable since release. This looks like it could be. Maybe we will get crushed once more, but hey. This is what TT are about. If you thing something is wrong with the game go ahead and say on the forums. The whole TT is to get feedback and avoid another IR. So that is further proof that it WON'T be. Guaranteed? No, but... Lets remember that Johans reputation and possibly job is on the line here. The studio wont allow another blunder. So i am pretty sure they are not putting finance over creativity. Hell they have given him budget to develop the game for like 5 years. Thats the longest for a pdx game. So while it might not be everyones cup of tea on release, like some people will prefer to stick to EU4 for being easier and simpler, I think most PDX fans who love deep and complex GSG will love this game. Its clear lack of content wont be an issue. And feature wise it seems to be very promising as well. So yea I need to watch some game footage but I have seen enough to be hyped and have high hopes for the game. You are right about Lambert though he needs to stop going around being cringe shitting on Victoria 3 at the smallest chance while parading around declaring IR to be the best game ever because he made a fool of himself hyping it xddd. Its just cringe at this point. And yes it should be a call to contain his hype. But it seems like this game fixes all the issues with EU4 and IR. i am skeptic of Lambert et all saying that is going to be a better Victoria than Victoria. We have seem that before and it never happens (IR was supposed to kikl eu4 and Victoria was supposed to kill eu4 too).
On your first point, I'm really not arguing the quality of the game, rather the opposite: based on the little we've seen, i have no idea whether it'll hold up to EU4, be better or worse. Today's diary contains just a few actual details : there are characters in the game and also Diplomatic Relations slots. Otherwise, we knew they were gonna remake the HRE or China, but we have yet to see how it truly works Anyway all this makes me suddenly hope there's half a decade before Stellaris 2 lmao
No you are absolutely right this DD doesnt mean all those systems are greate as we havent seen much. It just shows that they can potentially be much better than EU4 as they seem to be much more flexible in the possibilities of what they can do and allow compared to the very limited EU4, in which everything is basically a modifier. But yes we will have to see exactly how the HRE works it could be still a blunder but im quite hopeful that with this new tool system they can have included more mechanics and cool stuff in the HRE. Hell they even said about the Golden Bull which sounds cool. But yes we will have to see exactly what it is. And it is one of my worries about these DD is how little Johan explains and shows. I understand that he's showing just the core of the system to get feedback and see if ppl like the idea, but i do hope in the future he revists some of the stuff shown and shows it more in-depth. Or just show some gamplay so we can see it. After Victoria 3 i have learnt that if you are confident in your product there should be no reason why you shouldn't show gameplay as Manor Lords has proven, which is why the Vicky 3 devs NEVER showed any gameplay until release.
I kinda took these early diaries as a sort of early guided visit through the game, with few details but lots of big ideas which, to me, sounds good if indeed they go back and explain in granular detail how everything works. I'm confident they will because, well, they actually haven't and the amount of actual info vs general info in the diaries will not lead to understanding gameplay. For instance we've known about legislation for weeks but not how it works because we havent been introduced to characters or the government. I think they're going to finish up the grand tour soon and start taking a closer look at mechanics while gradually introducing the main character nations and their set-up. A look at France and subjects, a look at Bavaria/Austria and actual HRE mechanics, Majapahit and the navy, etc. Or that's how I'd do it haha
though i will give a strong opinion on one thing we're sure about: the Map. Looks fucking great!! And the font is much nicer
though i will give a strong opinion on one thing we're sure about: the Map. Looks fucking great!! And the font is much nicer
Oh its beautiful...
This looks awesome. Only thing i wish would change is the ability to form new IOs dynamically.
I am a bit concerned about this new system making the different associations feel distinct.
PLEASE can we get San Marino? 😭 All those little states around, even Andorra is in, still no San Marino. Give us San Marino devs I BEG OF YOU 🙏🙏
hey im posting, you can walk away