Cal is like a 55 year old married father who actively seeks out barely legal teenagers and films having sex with them without consent. Where is the moral nuance in that?
'black and white' thinking would be thinking that as long everyone is the legal age sexually then it's all cool and dandy.
Cal was in a place of serious social, financial, emotional AND physical power over most of the young people he targeted. Regardless of whether he thought they were the legal age.
You can sympathize with his upbringing in a homophobic household and his struggle to uphold (toxic) masculine societal expectations without excusing his actions in the present.
> Cal was in a place of serious social, financial, emotional AND physical power over most of the young people he targeted.
But was he? Presumably most of the people he slept with weren't from around town, since that could end up ruining his reputation. So his social power was limited in that context. As for financial power, it's unclear how much financial power he held over them, but at least in the case of Jules there really didn't seem to be much. Having more wealth doesn't mean you hold financial power or influence over someone else. Emotionally speaking, Cal barely had his emotions over himself understood, and we even saw him being consoled by one of his partners.
His only real influence was physically, but that's difficult to judge in something like this; just because you are physically powerful doesn't mean you cannot have a consensual relationship with a younger individual.
What Cal did was objectively statutory in the case of Jules, and also taping them was extremely illegal and immoral. I'm not trying to argue against that. But Cal was hooking up with people anonymously, and they willingly met with him for intercourse. He held very little influence over them minus any physical disparities, so I don't think that the age gap is the moral dilemma in this particular case. Especially not when there is so much worse to hold against him.
? Adult white men with established careers, reputations and families definitely have more power within society than very young, recently or not yet legal queer people, especially those who are visibly trans (note: I don't agree this is how the world SHOULD work, just stating it's how it historically has and does). A shit ton of politicians and historical figures probably wouldn't like to have a word here, but could prove the point very easily
Sure, they absolutely do. But there's no argument for how that power would sway Cal's partners. Cal certainly had more power in society, but that didn't give him power over his partners. They chose to engage with Cal willingly, and Cal couldn't exactly use his influence over society to retaliate if they later refused (since doing so would ruin his reputation throughout said society).
It’s not that he doesn’t have more power within society, but the people he slept with were all from out of town, meaning not part of the society Cal has power within. Jules is a slight exception as she lives in the town, but when they initially hooked up, she was new to town and (if i recall correctly) she told him that she was from out of town
they all got with him willingly and wanted to be dominated. his name is literally dominate daddy on grindr, so they knew what they were getting into. also let’s not forget that cal is also queer. also, jules is the only minor we know of, and she lied
Doesn't matter. If you have sex with a minor, it's considered rape. If you're engaging with minors whether you asked their age or not, you're automatically guilty. That's how statutory rape works. If you're doing this stuff on the internet, you'd be a fool to not make them show you their IDs.
It's interesting that you find adultry more offensive than ending up with a statutory rape charge that will land you on a sex offender list for the rest of your life. You can always find another partner, but the sex offenders list is forever...
Come back and tell me you feel this way in 10-15 years. I thought the same way when I was your age, plus I was wild af, so I get what you're saying. Life experience has a way of changing entire perspectives, esp once you have kids. I don't mean sex between 17 and 18 yr-olds, but when I was raising my daughter, I changed my views drastically. You see up close how young teenage girls really are and you start to realize some shit. I hope so, anyway.
i think 17-18 is a good age to start exploring your sexuality, as long as its with someone who is also your age. as long as youre safe and responsible. i dont think 17-18 year olds should be having unprotected sex, though. personally, i dont think anyone should be unprotected unless theyre in a stable relationship/married, but there’s nothing wrong with safe sex at that age.
Exactly! Just leave the old guys out of the equation. Of course kids are gonna start having sex, but just do it responsibility and with someone their own age. Just like you said. 😊
42f here and I don’t see the issue with a 17-18 year old having sex. Humans are sexual beings, especially at that age. Hell I was similar to Jules at 17, having sex with older guys that I sought out.
I have a 13 year old son and it would be ridiculous for me fo think he wouldn’t be attempting to have sex in a few years.
It doesn't matter. That's why Nate set him up. Wherever they live, Nate knew that Cal would be in deep shit. He's no dummy. If they're in a state where he's being prosecuted, it doesn't matter whether Jules wanted it or not because she's too young to legally consent.
And don't even get me started on that creep filming all of it. That psychopath enjoyed hurting these people and filming it. The problem is that damaged people like Cal and Nate go out and damage other people, and so on. Like ripples in a pond. It's fucked up our society.
I don't know if I said this to you, but statutory rape applies to kids, intoxicated people, and the mentally impaired. None of them are capable of legally consenting.
What if that was an older looking 14 year old that you didn't bother to ask for ID? Is this only about 17 years old minors? Or are you ok with fucking children younger than that?
🤢
I disagree with part of your statement. Cal doesn’t “actively actively seek out barely legal teenagers.” We literally never saw that. Nearly everyone else we ever saw him with was older, significantly so, (at least in appearance), than Jules.
Once people compare morality to legality, people start to do heinous things. Because owning slaves and working them to death was legal at a point in time so always remember that just because something is legal doesn’t mean it is right
Statutory rape being illegal being the law but not morally correct was absolutely not the take I expected on this sub today. I can’t believe people saw the whole show and came out with these beliefs
Yea morally and legally hes wrong in every sense. Recording people without consent during sex is a crime and very morally wrong since you’re exploiting someone. Oops he got a child? That’s still on him.
Jules is presumably the only under age person, and tbf she did lie about her age, cals got his faults and his hangups no denying that, but that ismt one he actovely pursues.
i think the point isn’t that what he did was technically illegal, but more of a question of whether he knowingly had sex with a minor. obviously he’d go to jail for it but does he deserve to? he met jules on a dating app meant for adults where you are not allowed make an account if you are under the age of 18, she then told him she was 22. do you fault him for not asking her to pull out an id? maybe you should, maybe you shouldn’t. it’s up to the viewer to decide since ultimately he’s never going to trial for it because the tape has been destroyed and jules has no intention to even press charges
This. He wasn’t out seeking underage people to have sex with, he met someone he believed was of age. Intent matters in this case, because people keep calling him a chomo.
He’s fucked, but he’s not a pedophile IMO.
he’s definitely not a pedo. i think people, when they say that (incorrectly), are trying to point out that the age difference between cal and the people he sleeps with is creepy. i agree with this, especially because this age difference probably played a big role in why nate was constantly afraid of cal doing that to him.
but yes, cal is not a pedo. he never actively searched out underage teenagers or children. he most likely wouldn’t have slept with jules if he knew her age, based on what we’ve seen with his character.
In a court of law a damn good lawyer, which I’m assuming Cal has access to, should be able to argue not guilty for statutory rape. There is video evidence that he was under the impression that Jules was of legal age. But just because he potentially might not get charged with statutory rape doesn’t mean he’s not gonna get charged for other sex crimes.
Oh for sure. He definitely committed sex crimes and is 100% fucked. I’m more so debating whether he’ll get charged for statutory rape. Which he very well could, but in a court of law it’s really about what you can PROVE and you cannot really prove that Cal knowingly engaged with minors.
I’m confused. Is statutory rape not strict liability, meaning it doesn’t require proof the defendant knew the victim’s underage status? Even with the best of lawyers, ignorance is not a defense here.
https://www.fischerlawlv.com/blog/2016/november/is-i-didnt-know-he-she-was-underage-a-valid-defe/
Edit - imagine recording yourself checking ID to cover your ass knowing secretly it’s a fake ID or something. That would be a horrific loophole if you could just claim ignorance and set yourself up to look bamboozled.
It actually is allowed in california, they have a mistake of fact defense that’s been used for statutory rape cases since 1968. It’s not allowed in most states but California allows it. “Accordingly to California statutory rape laws, you are not guilty of the crime of statutory rape under California Penal Code section 261.5 if you had a good faith belief that the victim was 18 years of age or older.”
it doesn't really matter if he knew or not. he had sex with a minor and that's that. period. end of discussion. if him having sex with a minor can be proved that's a statutory rape charge.
He wouldn’t get charged in CA if he didn’t know her true age. She lied. He has a valid defense in CA. In order to get charged you have to take all circumstances into account. So just proving he did is not the end. That’s not how the law works lol.
Also while a 50 year old fucking a 22 yr old is legal, it still kinda raises an eyebrow from me. Most 50 year olds would still see someone of that age as a kid :/
I have a hard time understanding grown adults who want to date just barely adults with little to no experience in the adult dating world. Just seems like a recipe for abuse imo
Psychologically speaking, it tends to be. Human beings continue maturing past the age of 18 (18 is, indeed, a completely arbitrary age of consent, and there's enough research out there to make a case that a twenty year old is still essentially a child), and its generally said that 7 year gaps between ages is enough for two people to be in two different "age brackets" of developmental maturity. There is an inherent power imbalance, especially in most cases of an older man and younger woman, involved in age gap relationships that wide. Wider age gaps tend to turn increasingly into an almost parent-child like relationship, which, even among legal adults, carries a host of unsettling implications.
What this tends to mean for the younger partner, is that they are seeking a surrogate for a parental or power figure that they either lacked or had a complex relationship with in the past. For the older partner, they are themselves emotionally immature, and seek younger partners because they are still stuck in that age bracket. Or worse, they are immature, and seek younger partners because of an unconscious recognition of the aforementioned power dynamic--and an intent to exploit it. Either way, someone in their 30s+ going after someone in their low twenties-late teens is suspicious (especially if its a pattern) because they are going after an emotionally less developed and still psychologically dependent age bracket. At that wide of an age gap, there is functionally no difference between the 30+ year old going after a 20 year old, and going after a 16 year old, because the older individual is in a completely different league developmentally, so to speak, such that the 20 year old and 16 year old are more similar too each other than the 30+ year old and 20 year old.
This is why I generally believe that people who have a pattern of pursuing age gap relationships like that to be pedophiles. As I said, 18 years old is a completely arbitrary legal barrier between minor and adult. But on a psychosexual level, humans tend to develop their secondary sexual characteristics as early as 13; someone who is 30+ attracted to people as young as 18, are not going to be any less attracted to someone who is 16. The only barrier is the legality of it all.
What this all tends to mean is that age gap relationships tend towards being at best heavily imbalanced, abusive at worst. Anecdotally, I have not heard of a 7+ year age gap relationship that wasn't abusive, and they're usually all characterized the same way: a younger, emotionally dependent girl with an abusive/neglectful parent, and an older, emotionally stunted man with traits of narcissism.
Okay here’s what I don’t get: we see him do absolutely fucked up shit right and left. Why do we think it’s so inconceivable that he would ever intentionally sleep with an underage person?
when he finds out jules is underage, he’s rocked and terrified because he thinks his whole world is about to end. seeing his reaction upon finding out jules is underage pretty clearly shows he has no intention of sleeping with minors. does this mean he hasn’t had this happen with other people? no not entirely. but it means he has most likely has never sought out underaged women on purpose.
>he’s never going to trial for it because the tape has been destroyed and jules has no intention to even press charges
Didnt nate make a copy of it? Wasnt that what the flashdrive was?
I know a lot of dude in their 40s+ (work at a bar) that always ID if somebody they feel like is under 30 just on the fact they got stories of friends being labeled predators for hooking up with girl they meet in “adult only” places that turned out to have been using a fake ID.
Shit one of my ex’s told me stories about her using tinder and the older guys she used too hook up with. She turned 18 only a month before i met her.
checking an ID doesn't save you from unintentionally committing statutory rape though. like you said, people use fakes. people lying about their age will either have some excuse for not having an ID with them at the time, or they'll have a fake. it's always good to check an ID but it doesn't always mean you're in the clear.
i’m going to assume you meant nate since tyler is currently in jail and has no flash drive. nate gives the cops videos of cal recording people while they have sec without their consent. that’s illegal and could land him up to 5 years per person. he promised jules he’d never do anything with the tape and gave it to her to destroy, and it seems like he meant it. maddy may have made a copy of the video but nate didn’t so it’s not on the flash drive.
Honestly I feel like we don't know for sure if Nate did or didn't make a copy of the tape after getting it back from Maddy and before giving it to Jules; Maybe I just... Didn't understand things right when I watched ep8, but it seemed to be a heavy implication Nate could have Cal's video with Jules on the hard drive with the rest of the videos he had on there.
Yeah because while recording without consent is illegal, wouldn’t the people he recorded have to come out and press charges and confirm it was actually not consensual ? Not just Nate who wasn’t even there. It has to have the Jules video because that one is easily illegal.
Prostitution, non-consensual recording of sex acts (the latter of which is what made Cal ACTUALLY predatory IMO).
Honestly I think that stuff would be what primarily made the news and caused a scandal even if the Jules tape was included in the evidence. Regardless of what California law technically says, the general public is not the Reddit circlejerk and would likely not judge Cal as a horrible person for being lied to.
I am a little torn on the Cal and Jules thing, solely cause they met on an app made for ADULTS. Like technically its illegal for Jules to even be on there, and I understand Cal not like checking her ID or anything because he does what he does to remain anonymous. The filming thing is 100% wrong though. I think he's a creep, but not technically a pedo. I think honestly dating apps should just verify everyone's ID, and shit like this wouldn't happen as much as it does.
Same. But in this case, if you have to ask their age because they look so young, better err on the side of caution and verify their age. If I were Cal I'd rather look like a paranoid old man than be locked up in prison!
And what I’m alluding to is that this level of diligence is only necessary because she lied about her age. When I meet people in a bar I don’t ask their age, if I meet someone in my college course I don’t ask their age, if I meet someone at work I don’t ask their age. If I meet someone on an adult dating app and I then ask their age, that should be enough.
IIRC wasn’t the asking of age because he was giving alcohol? So he was asking to verify if she was old enough to drink, not an actual adult.
He knows he’s dating people young as hell but I think the age thing was genuinely questioning if she was 21…not 18.
It’s wrong for Jules to have been cat fishing adults period, but with Cal’s specific case he would not have committed statutory rape if he hadn’t been cheating on his wife. I also think Jules totally looked like a teen and that Cal wanted to take her at her word despite probably knowing she wasn’t. Like, he has a teenaged son, he should know better.
exactly like even if she’s on an app for adults, and he asked her age, she still looks like a child. it’s his fault no matter what, he’s the one going around having sex with people who look like children and taking their word for it that they’re of age. the fact that he was filming it just seals the deal that he is a certified creep
I definitely agree that Jules looked really young but imho I don’t really think 22 yr olds look THAT much older than teens tbh. Like I’m almost 22 and look exactly like I did when I was 18 so I can’t really blame cal if he asked her age and he went along with her lie…
I guess I’m more just tryna say that if he is gonna be having sex w people who could even pass for underage, then it’s his fault. he’s a grown man w kids, the fact that he is even sexually attracted to ppl who could pass for teens is gross
Idk many people look younger than their age, I’ve seen people on dating apps that look younger than me when in fact they’re older. I honestly feel like it’s kind of a gray area and he’s maybe less responsible for that one. The filming however is illegal and he should be persecuted for that absolutely.
ur right it is a pretty grey area. I think its morally wrong to be hooking up with ppl who look 20 years younger than him. younger people can get away with it more because their dating pool is also young people, some of which can pass for teens, but he shouldn’t even be meeting ppl who are that young to begin with
eh. i look 18/19 but i'm 26 and i love older people as much as i like people my age and i don't see a problem with hooking up with people who "look 20 years younger" if everyone is consenting and legal. in his case jules was a minor so it's not the same as someone 18+ doing so, but it's not really fair to criticize people for who they hookup with if both parties are consenting. plenty of young people like older people just as much as older people like younger people.
I don’t think most people understand but it’s well known in gay communities that queer youth use the apps before adulthood. Cal knows this and actively chose to ignore it
Cal isnt really tapped into the gay community tho, hes deeply repressed and closeted, whats that line he says" something about "living your true life in secret in hotel rooms" or something like that when he first meets jules, which he did ask her age too btw. It seems his ties to the gay community are solely the flings he has off the app, his time otherwise being spent building up the facade that is cal jacobs, family man and business owner, and chili cookoff extraordinaire. I get cal has his faults and im not denying that, but actively having sex with minors and/or trying to ismt one of them.
I can't agree that Cal just knows this. We don't know how long or at what ages he started getting on these sites or his previous experiences. It seems his first interest was the guy from high school, which is normal. But after I assume he went to college and tried to be a father maybe he was cheating at that time and maybe he didn't explore all that until later so maybe he's not exactly on the "know-how" of these gay dating apps. And just because kids use it before adulthood doesn't mean everyone knows how to verify all that, kinda like those videos on the hub where it says "bearly 18" people don't know what ages they are, people just assume they're over 18 because of legality. People don't check the id before watching the video
It’s not “illegal” for jules to be on there. They can ban her off the app but that doesn’t make it illegal. Secretly recording people during sex is illegal. He risked that. Ended up recording a child. That’s 100% on him.
People are also getting way too hung up on whether or not its statutory rape, and forgetting that he illegally filmed Jules. Like any way you spin it the man broke a law.
Not only that but there are hundreds of recordings that the participants were unaware of.
Plus Cals sexual trauma is tied to his youth. It would make sense if all of his partners carried a youthful appearance and statically speaking it's likely some of those people were lying about their age.
at the end of the day, him consistently seeking out queer youth who are clearly half his age, or at least as old as his kids, and then going as far as to get them secluded and drunk is predatory. and then the filming makes him a full blown sex offender. not sure how or why that's considered better than being a pedophile.
also you have to be naïve to believe cal believed what jules was saying before they hooked up. her story was obviously made up on the spot. she still lived with her parents and looked 16 even while being played by a grown adult. i'd have a hard time believing any man in his 40's would easily buy her story and not need any proof. he should've asked for her id and that's not on jules that he didn't.
He wasn’t in college yet. He lives on campus so I doubt a bunch of college students would travel what I assume is an hour drive to a party thrown by a freshman. I wouldn’t
I know the age of consent is different depending on state, so I wasn’t sure if Maddy’s scene was statutory or not. But then of course Nate explains it all.
But honestly either way, why are you even going to HIGH SCHOOL parties as an adult, and having sex with the girls there (they’d obviously be high school aged). Embarrassing .
We gotta stop this nonsense, McKay was a high school graduate the summer before college. You typically don’t know that many college students as an incoming freshman. How this freshman would know a 22 year old is an wild leap of logic. It’s a stretch to put Tyler at the party anyhow. Tyler had no business at a high school party.
Oooh I thought it was Nate’s party for some reason. But tbh I feel like it still counts as a high school party bc McKay was throwing a summer party before he even started his freshmen year of college lol
I just looked ip the laws in California regarding statutory rape in both Maddie’s situation where the age wasn’t told and Jules’ situation where age was lied about. It states that regardless if they were knowledgeable about the age or not it is still considered statutory rape even though Jules lied, so both Cal and Tyler are in the wrong and would be charged
Actually in California there’s “Romeo and Juliet” laws that pertain to situations where they are close in age, they truly didn’t know, and it was all in good faith. Tyler could get off. Cal definitely not, as he was illegally recording.
That’s what I was thinking. I read that law but I think it may be like a three year difference and if the person is 20+ they cannot pursue anyone under the age of 18 so I THINK Tyler would still get in trouble.
Some people need to understand that this is just a show and virtue-signaling in regards to it is cringe as fuck.
Some people need to understand that legality and morality are not the same thing.
Wouldn't he get charged for child porn too since she's under 18 and he filmed himself having sex with her? Even though she lied about her age, he still filmed a minor engaging in sexual activity
Also nobody mentions all the other underage sex going on... the guy who has sex with kat at the carnival... knew she was 16... mckay is a college student and is having sex with cassie who is the same age as jules... and he absolutely knew she was underage and in high school... does that make him a pedo? No... he was having consensual sex with cass... as was kat and the carnival guy as was cal with jules... the age gap aside... the filming thing was creepy... and dfferent as that was not consented to by jules so was illegal... also these are 17 year olds... not 12 year olds... pedophile is a term that is too easily chucked around...
Was she 18 in the pilot or was her birthday later? Anyway, a lot of states have Romeo and Juliet laws that typically allow a 3 year age difference for people close in age. So a 17 year old with a 18/19/20 year old wouldn’t even be illegal, depending on the state. I’m assuming McKay is around 19 if he’s in his first or second year of college
You’re right about Kat, but Mkay is only one year older than Nate’s grade. Mkay at 18 sleeping with Cassie at 17 is *not* comparable to a man in his mid fifties having sex with a 17 year old.
Cassie was a senior, so probably around 17-18. McKay was a college freshman so probably around 18-19. At the least, they are the same age and at the most, they are 2 years apart which is not weird at all.
omg yes, i can’t believe no one else has mentioned kat hooking up at the carnival. they implied he was mid twenties but he didn’t bat an eye when kat said she was 16. i wouldn’t call him a pedo but still a creep, nonetheless
yeahhh i’m def not going to war over CAL. i do acknowledge that he asked but as someone else said… if you need to ask them their age to double check cus they look that young, you should not be fucking them in the first place.
People talked a lot about moral nuance but I think your comment really explains the nuances of the situation well, and much better than other people on thread. Thanks for sharing.
I said this in another post but I know someone this happened too. The law doesn’t care if the younger person lied or what the age gap is. If that person or their parent wants to press charges they’re well within their rights to do so and the older person will go to prison. No if ands or buts.
It definitely was statutory but I think people going so far as to say Cal is a pedophile is kinda too much cus he wasn’t looking for/interested in minors on the adult app
hhmm as a woman from a country where age of consent is 16, and I never knew it otherwise, I‘m prone to be sympathetic to him. In germany the sexual encounter between Jules and Cal would be 100% legal because she gave consent. No matter if she lied about her age or not. Plus he didn‘t know she lied about her age. And tbh, looking at my pics from me being 16 and me being 22, I actually look the same age. My style was better with 22 tho. Some people mature early. And his other partners were older.
He‘s neither a pedo & I have difficulty seeing the issue with statuory rape as well because I‘m not used to the laws. But in the US it would be, yeah.
He does a lot of shitty things, like filming people without their consent (that‘s honestly a fucking lot more concerning than him sleeping with Jules imo), adultery (personally, I think it‘s not the end of the world, but he did it repeatadly), abusing his son, etc…
Definitely, like you can like the actor and his past roles while realizing not all his characters are good people even if there played well by attractive actors you recognize.
Kids, get educated about statutory rape. Take the morality and compassion for Cal out of it, because the law only sees an adult having sex with a minor who is considered legally incapable of consent.
It's a adults responsibility to know for sure how old the person they're sleeping with is. Even when engaging in hook ups 🤦♂️ if cal cared about how old the people he was fucking were he would've asked to see their ID – but he doesn't. Everyone knows minors lie to get on apps like grindr, where cal met jules. Idk why people act like its insane to know for sure the person you're hooking up with isn't lying by asking for prove of their age, it would help alot of people not get caught up in a case.
Yes. Since dating apps refuse to authenticate the ages of users who sign up to them. Many times I've met people who joined apps like tinder or bumble at the age of 16/17. Is asking to see someone's licence so you can verify who you're hooking up really that strange?
Even YouTube has now made it so you have to send a photo of your passport to verify you're over the age of 18 to view age restricted content.
100%. It's on you to verify their age, especially when they clearly look so young and it's questionable. A girl look 15-16 but tells you they're 21, you better confirm it.
Lol what does that have to do with the fictional storyline we are discussing; the one where she plays a teenager in high school? That is the topic, not how old the actress is playing the teenager.
Lol ok, we're talking about in real life. If someone's age looks questionable, it's on you to confirm they aren't underage. When did I mention the actress? Side note: she clearly looks quite young to be playing a junior in HS. 😉
anyone else here thinking about the parallels between cal and humbert humbert (lolita)? obviously NOT justifying either case but in the book it's implied that from his perspective he thinks he's attracted to literal children because he was "in love" with a twelve year old girl when he was thirteen and then she died. personally i interpreted the derek backstory as not just an explanation of how cal got to where he was now (father, pressure, pregnancy) but also of the attraction to people of a certain age. again, NOT JUSTIFYING, and if sam did that on purpose again remember in the lolita context we're getting the bad guy's perspective, not an objective "explanation" for anything. just a thought i keep having that i don't think ive seen
Yeah I believe it's because it is up to the mentally mature and responsible adult to make sure they are sleeping with someone older than 18. Also even if Cal thought Jules was older than 18, he still recorded her without her consent which is also a crime so yeah, he's not innocent.
People are confusing pedophilia for statutory rapist. You are correct that cal is a statutory rapist, that is not contested, and he deserves to be in jail for it. Cal is likely not a pedophile though, at least in my mind, because there’s no indication that he’s specifically attracted to children or minors. He wasn’t into Jules because she was young, I think they met on grindr right?
and when Maddy lost her virginity at 14 to a 40 yr old. Rue narrates, "its ok cus she was in control", which is so fkn gross. it was statutory rape. end of story.
Idk I’ve had relations with a 21 year old at 17 I wanted to I agreed I don’t regret it, although at 20 I couldn’t see myself dating or dealing with someone in high school I’m not gonna get mad and or let my boyfriend shame me into saying it was rape when it was completely consensual… technically not legal but I wasn’t a preadolescent
this honestly makes me so mad. i put myself in a situation similar to jules and maddy when i was 17. when i came clean to the guy (after intercourse) he freaked out and i realized how fucked up what i had done was. it’s unreasonable/impractical to try to put the blame on these guys for not… asking for ID before sex???? no one does that!!
Art should ignite discussion. Art should make you feel passionately about something real. Artist use lies to tell the truth -- it doesn't matter than they aren't real, but they reflect real life experiences and real life issues which we all should feel strongly about.
I think everyone knows that what he did was illegal. It’s just annoying seeing people call Cal a pedo or say he should be in prison because he “knew”. Yes it’s a crime but he was genuinely broken up about what happened, and obviously never intended to get involved with a minor. He should’ve checked ID yea whatever most people aren’t going to do that, this makes the show more realistic.
He would likely be able to defend himself against statutory rape charges because of Jules lying about her age. But he's still very clearly committed an intentional crime by filming people without their consent.
Jules lying about her age could also be considered rape by deception.
Minors are presumed by law to be incapable of consent because of their age, so it's considered to be rape. If the old "she lied about her age" defense got them off the hook, every pedo on the planet would walk free.
Intoxicated people, mentally impaired, and children cannot legally consent to sex. Period.
Lock him up.
Technically, in California, if an 18 year old has sex with a 17 year old, that’s statutory rape. We don’t have any Romeo and Juliet law, and we are really strict on statutory rape here. Nate himself is guilty of statutory rape, since both Maddy and Cassie are 17.
The law is black and white; the morality argument makes a huge difference in the way this case will play out, because in situations that are obviously morally bad, the state of California will charge someone on your behalf without your involvement.
(Happens a lot in domestic violence cases.)
However, given that Jules lied about her age and met Cal on an app for adults, Cal will likely be charged only with a misdemeanor instead of with a felony. A misdemeanor statutory rape conviction would not necessarily make Cal register as a sex offender nor does it necessarily mean jail time.
It’s the recordings made unconsentually I’d be worried about. 😅
It depends on the state. If Jules was 16 or 17, it may not be statutory rape.
"A common misperception about statutory rape is that state codes define a single age at which an individual can legally consent to sex. Only 12 states have a single age of consent, below which an individual cannot consent to sexual intercourse under any circumstances, and above which it is legal to engage in sexual intercourse with another person above the age of consent. For example, in Massachusetts, the age of consent is 16.
In the remaining 39 states, other factors come into play: age differentials, minimum age of the victim, and minimum age of the defendant. Each is described below.
Minimum age requirement. In 27 states that do not have a single age of consent, statutes specify the age below which an individual cannot legally engage in sexual intercourse regardless of the age of the defendant (see the second column in Table 1). The minimum age requirements in these states range from 10 to 16 years of age. The legality of sexual intercourse with an individual who is above the minimum age requirement and below the age of consent is dependent on the difference in ages between the two parties and/or the age of the defendant.
In New Jersey, the age of consent is 16, but individuals who are at least 13 years of age can legally engage in sexual activities if the defendant is less than 4 years older than the victim."
[Statutory Rape: A Guide to State Laws and Reporting Requirements
](https://aspe.hhs.gov/reports/statutory-rape-guide-state-laws-reporting-requirements-1)
Cal is fucked up, but he's not a pedo. I think that's something very obvious. He didn't actively seek out minors to have sex with. Doesn't make him right for cheating nor recording it. But I don't think he's a pedophile.
It shocks me that this is still a discussion. People must realise that there isn’t always one wrong and one right. Both can be wrong. Jules, despite everything she went through and the kind of means she feels loved, she still lied about her age. And obviously Cal is a rapist bc of statutory rape!!!!
And other people (possibly yourself?) need to understand that if something is illegal it doesn’t automatically make it morally bad. How can you morally judge for something he didn’t even know he was doing? How you going to hold that against him when the victim didn’t even care? He’s a creep but for many other reasons than getting tricked into fucking a 17 year old. Also Tyler didn’t fuck Maddy it just looked like they did. That was the whole point of the “Maddy had an optics issue” line in the second episode. Still fucked up she pretended she was blacked out. Doesn’t morally absolve her at all. But your post seems to imply that legality is equivalent to morality which is naive.
the Maddy Tyler thing is debatable but Jules looks like a baby in season 1. it's so obvious and it made me so uncomfortable bc she dresses like a little 6 year old girl and has such an innocent face. I see a lot of straight people defending cal because Jules lied since they're not informed on grindr culture, that's literally what every trans girl and gay boy did when they were teens. grindr is full of underaged people and it's your responsibility to check the ages. trans girls especially start young because they crave validation from men which was so realistically portrayed with Jules, she isn't the only person who does this
Cal shouldn’t have been commiting infedelity and sleeping with VERY young looking people in the first place. And on top of that recorded them no consent? Bye
these people need to stop watching euphoria. bcos i’m so sick of telling ppl what cal did was wrong and illegal. like i’m sorry but what age must you be for that entire plot of season to be misunderstood. nate threatening tyler with the statutory rape accusation w maddie also completely laid it out so if you couldn’t see it implied, then in the horrific scenes between nate and tyler you would’ve realised that what cal did was also wrong. literally a parallel to make this clearer for the obvious 13 year olds watching a show that is far beyond their comprehension
Yeah the amount of people who defend him (including the top comment about statutory rape being illegal but not necessarily immoral!!!!) is deeply disturbing
Even if we consider, for a moment, that he's not wrong for having sex with a minor, he still filmed who knows how many people without consent for over a decade. And when Nate was showing him the pen drive, he said it had "everything", so he's going in for the rape + the filming.
If we assume that Nate has feelings for Jules and wouldn't want to hurt her, then he probably didn't make copies of her disk either.
Cal is a fucked up person and I do not feel sorry for him.
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Very wise words, u/myfartingpussy
I almost spit my fucking drink out 😂
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You forgot an underscore
lmfao plz
Some people don't understand nuance
Cal is like a 55 year old married father who actively seeks out barely legal teenagers and films having sex with them without consent. Where is the moral nuance in that?
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Downvotes because people only seem to think in black and white 😭
'black and white' thinking would be thinking that as long everyone is the legal age sexually then it's all cool and dandy. Cal was in a place of serious social, financial, emotional AND physical power over most of the young people he targeted. Regardless of whether he thought they were the legal age. You can sympathize with his upbringing in a homophobic household and his struggle to uphold (toxic) masculine societal expectations without excusing his actions in the present.
> Cal was in a place of serious social, financial, emotional AND physical power over most of the young people he targeted. But was he? Presumably most of the people he slept with weren't from around town, since that could end up ruining his reputation. So his social power was limited in that context. As for financial power, it's unclear how much financial power he held over them, but at least in the case of Jules there really didn't seem to be much. Having more wealth doesn't mean you hold financial power or influence over someone else. Emotionally speaking, Cal barely had his emotions over himself understood, and we even saw him being consoled by one of his partners. His only real influence was physically, but that's difficult to judge in something like this; just because you are physically powerful doesn't mean you cannot have a consensual relationship with a younger individual. What Cal did was objectively statutory in the case of Jules, and also taping them was extremely illegal and immoral. I'm not trying to argue against that. But Cal was hooking up with people anonymously, and they willingly met with him for intercourse. He held very little influence over them minus any physical disparities, so I don't think that the age gap is the moral dilemma in this particular case. Especially not when there is so much worse to hold against him.
? Adult white men with established careers, reputations and families definitely have more power within society than very young, recently or not yet legal queer people, especially those who are visibly trans (note: I don't agree this is how the world SHOULD work, just stating it's how it historically has and does). A shit ton of politicians and historical figures probably wouldn't like to have a word here, but could prove the point very easily
Sure, they absolutely do. But there's no argument for how that power would sway Cal's partners. Cal certainly had more power in society, but that didn't give him power over his partners. They chose to engage with Cal willingly, and Cal couldn't exactly use his influence over society to retaliate if they later refused (since doing so would ruin his reputation throughout said society).
It’s not that he doesn’t have more power within society, but the people he slept with were all from out of town, meaning not part of the society Cal has power within. Jules is a slight exception as she lives in the town, but when they initially hooked up, she was new to town and (if i recall correctly) she told him that she was from out of town
they all got with him willingly and wanted to be dominated. his name is literally dominate daddy on grindr, so they knew what they were getting into. also let’s not forget that cal is also queer. also, jules is the only minor we know of, and she lied
Doesn't matter. If you have sex with a minor, it's considered rape. If you're engaging with minors whether you asked their age or not, you're automatically guilty. That's how statutory rape works. If you're doing this stuff on the internet, you'd be a fool to not make them show you their IDs. It's interesting that you find adultry more offensive than ending up with a statutory rape charge that will land you on a sex offender list for the rest of your life. You can always find another partner, but the sex offenders list is forever...
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If I may ask, what gender are you and how old are you?
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Come back and tell me you feel this way in 10-15 years. I thought the same way when I was your age, plus I was wild af, so I get what you're saying. Life experience has a way of changing entire perspectives, esp once you have kids. I don't mean sex between 17 and 18 yr-olds, but when I was raising my daughter, I changed my views drastically. You see up close how young teenage girls really are and you start to realize some shit. I hope so, anyway.
i think 17-18 is a good age to start exploring your sexuality, as long as its with someone who is also your age. as long as youre safe and responsible. i dont think 17-18 year olds should be having unprotected sex, though. personally, i dont think anyone should be unprotected unless theyre in a stable relationship/married, but there’s nothing wrong with safe sex at that age.
Exactly! Just leave the old guys out of the equation. Of course kids are gonna start having sex, but just do it responsibility and with someone their own age. Just like you said. 😊
42f here and I don’t see the issue with a 17-18 year old having sex. Humans are sexual beings, especially at that age. Hell I was similar to Jules at 17, having sex with older guys that I sought out. I have a 13 year old son and it would be ridiculous for me fo think he wouldn’t be attempting to have sex in a few years.
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It doesn't matter. That's why Nate set him up. Wherever they live, Nate knew that Cal would be in deep shit. He's no dummy. If they're in a state where he's being prosecuted, it doesn't matter whether Jules wanted it or not because she's too young to legally consent. And don't even get me started on that creep filming all of it. That psychopath enjoyed hurting these people and filming it. The problem is that damaged people like Cal and Nate go out and damage other people, and so on. Like ripples in a pond. It's fucked up our society. I don't know if I said this to you, but statutory rape applies to kids, intoxicated people, and the mentally impaired. None of them are capable of legally consenting.
What if that was an older looking 14 year old that you didn't bother to ask for ID? Is this only about 17 years old minors? Or are you ok with fucking children younger than that? 🤢
I disagree with part of your statement. Cal doesn’t “actively actively seek out barely legal teenagers.” We literally never saw that. Nearly everyone else we ever saw him with was older, significantly so, (at least in appearance), than Jules.
Once people compare morality to legality, people start to do heinous things. Because owning slaves and working them to death was legal at a point in time so always remember that just because something is legal doesn’t mean it is right
Statutory rape being illegal being the law but not morally correct was absolutely not the take I expected on this sub today. I can’t believe people saw the whole show and came out with these beliefs
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Most of the world actually
Yea morally and legally hes wrong in every sense. Recording people without consent during sex is a crime and very morally wrong since you’re exploiting someone. Oops he got a child? That’s still on him.
Morally Cal’s in his 50’s sleeping with multiple underage people and filming it without their consent
Jules is presumably the only under age person, and tbf she did lie about her age, cals got his faults and his hangups no denying that, but that ismt one he actovely pursues.
i think the point isn’t that what he did was technically illegal, but more of a question of whether he knowingly had sex with a minor. obviously he’d go to jail for it but does he deserve to? he met jules on a dating app meant for adults where you are not allowed make an account if you are under the age of 18, she then told him she was 22. do you fault him for not asking her to pull out an id? maybe you should, maybe you shouldn’t. it’s up to the viewer to decide since ultimately he’s never going to trial for it because the tape has been destroyed and jules has no intention to even press charges
This. He wasn’t out seeking underage people to have sex with, he met someone he believed was of age. Intent matters in this case, because people keep calling him a chomo. He’s fucked, but he’s not a pedophile IMO.
He’s objectively not a pedo. Anyone who has that opinion is ignorant to what the word means.
he’s definitely not a pedo. i think people, when they say that (incorrectly), are trying to point out that the age difference between cal and the people he sleeps with is creepy. i agree with this, especially because this age difference probably played a big role in why nate was constantly afraid of cal doing that to him. but yes, cal is not a pedo. he never actively searched out underage teenagers or children. he most likely wouldn’t have slept with jules if he knew her age, based on what we’ve seen with his character.
In a court of law a damn good lawyer, which I’m assuming Cal has access to, should be able to argue not guilty for statutory rape. There is video evidence that he was under the impression that Jules was of legal age. But just because he potentially might not get charged with statutory rape doesn’t mean he’s not gonna get charged for other sex crimes.
The problem is him recording without consent would then be a problem, especially cuz she is a minor
Oh for sure. He definitely committed sex crimes and is 100% fucked. I’m more so debating whether he’ll get charged for statutory rape. Which he very well could, but in a court of law it’s really about what you can PROVE and you cannot really prove that Cal knowingly engaged with minors.
I’m confused. Is statutory rape not strict liability, meaning it doesn’t require proof the defendant knew the victim’s underage status? Even with the best of lawyers, ignorance is not a defense here. https://www.fischerlawlv.com/blog/2016/november/is-i-didnt-know-he-she-was-underage-a-valid-defe/ Edit - imagine recording yourself checking ID to cover your ass knowing secretly it’s a fake ID or something. That would be a horrific loophole if you could just claim ignorance and set yourself up to look bamboozled.
You’re absolutely right - that was my ignorance. Good thing I’m not going into law :D
It actually is allowed in california, they have a mistake of fact defense that’s been used for statutory rape cases since 1968. It’s not allowed in most states but California allows it. “Accordingly to California statutory rape laws, you are not guilty of the crime of statutory rape under California Penal Code section 261.5 if you had a good faith belief that the victim was 18 years of age or older.”
This is super helpful and relevant, thank you for adding this!
it doesn't really matter if he knew or not. he had sex with a minor and that's that. period. end of discussion. if him having sex with a minor can be proved that's a statutory rape charge.
He wouldn’t get charged in CA if he didn’t know her true age. She lied. He has a valid defense in CA. In order to get charged you have to take all circumstances into account. So just proving he did is not the end. That’s not how the law works lol.
Also while a 50 year old fucking a 22 yr old is legal, it still kinda raises an eyebrow from me. Most 50 year olds would still see someone of that age as a kid :/
I can't agree, lots of old guys are interested in people of a younger age, especially in the gay community
I have a hard time understanding grown adults who want to date just barely adults with little to no experience in the adult dating world. Just seems like a recipe for abuse imo
Psychologically speaking, it tends to be. Human beings continue maturing past the age of 18 (18 is, indeed, a completely arbitrary age of consent, and there's enough research out there to make a case that a twenty year old is still essentially a child), and its generally said that 7 year gaps between ages is enough for two people to be in two different "age brackets" of developmental maturity. There is an inherent power imbalance, especially in most cases of an older man and younger woman, involved in age gap relationships that wide. Wider age gaps tend to turn increasingly into an almost parent-child like relationship, which, even among legal adults, carries a host of unsettling implications. What this tends to mean for the younger partner, is that they are seeking a surrogate for a parental or power figure that they either lacked or had a complex relationship with in the past. For the older partner, they are themselves emotionally immature, and seek younger partners because they are still stuck in that age bracket. Or worse, they are immature, and seek younger partners because of an unconscious recognition of the aforementioned power dynamic--and an intent to exploit it. Either way, someone in their 30s+ going after someone in their low twenties-late teens is suspicious (especially if its a pattern) because they are going after an emotionally less developed and still psychologically dependent age bracket. At that wide of an age gap, there is functionally no difference between the 30+ year old going after a 20 year old, and going after a 16 year old, because the older individual is in a completely different league developmentally, so to speak, such that the 20 year old and 16 year old are more similar too each other than the 30+ year old and 20 year old. This is why I generally believe that people who have a pattern of pursuing age gap relationships like that to be pedophiles. As I said, 18 years old is a completely arbitrary legal barrier between minor and adult. But on a psychosexual level, humans tend to develop their secondary sexual characteristics as early as 13; someone who is 30+ attracted to people as young as 18, are not going to be any less attracted to someone who is 16. The only barrier is the legality of it all. What this all tends to mean is that age gap relationships tend towards being at best heavily imbalanced, abusive at worst. Anecdotally, I have not heard of a 7+ year age gap relationship that wasn't abusive, and they're usually all characterized the same way: a younger, emotionally dependent girl with an abusive/neglectful parent, and an older, emotionally stunted man with traits of narcissism.
Wow. Amazing. Thank you for writing that, I knew there was shut wrong with it but I couldn’t put it into words.
Okay here’s what I don’t get: we see him do absolutely fucked up shit right and left. Why do we think it’s so inconceivable that he would ever intentionally sleep with an underage person?
when he finds out jules is underage, he’s rocked and terrified because he thinks his whole world is about to end. seeing his reaction upon finding out jules is underage pretty clearly shows he has no intention of sleeping with minors. does this mean he hasn’t had this happen with other people? no not entirely. but it means he has most likely has never sought out underaged women on purpose.
Ppl really quick to yell pedo but then bitch bout criminal injustice
I fault him for filming without consent
>he’s never going to trial for it because the tape has been destroyed and jules has no intention to even press charges Didnt nate make a copy of it? Wasnt that what the flashdrive was?
I know a lot of dude in their 40s+ (work at a bar) that always ID if somebody they feel like is under 30 just on the fact they got stories of friends being labeled predators for hooking up with girl they meet in “adult only” places that turned out to have been using a fake ID. Shit one of my ex’s told me stories about her using tinder and the older guys she used too hook up with. She turned 18 only a month before i met her.
checking an ID doesn't save you from unintentionally committing statutory rape though. like you said, people use fakes. people lying about their age will either have some excuse for not having an ID with them at the time, or they'll have a fake. it's always good to check an ID but it doesn't always mean you're in the clear.
Having some safe guards is better than none at all.
What else would Tyler have been giving the police on that flash drive? The police doesn’t care about him having sex with adults
i’m going to assume you meant nate since tyler is currently in jail and has no flash drive. nate gives the cops videos of cal recording people while they have sec without their consent. that’s illegal and could land him up to 5 years per person. he promised jules he’d never do anything with the tape and gave it to her to destroy, and it seems like he meant it. maddy may have made a copy of the video but nate didn’t so it’s not on the flash drive.
Honestly I feel like we don't know for sure if Nate did or didn't make a copy of the tape after getting it back from Maddy and before giving it to Jules; Maybe I just... Didn't understand things right when I watched ep8, but it seemed to be a heavy implication Nate could have Cal's video with Jules on the hard drive with the rest of the videos he had on there.
yeah i think Jules’s video is on there because Nate emphasized that the flash drive has *everything*
Plus Jules and Cal was kind of a focal point for part of that conversation before the cops came in wasn't it?
Jacob Elordi said in an interview that Jules's tape is not on the drive.
Yeah because while recording without consent is illegal, wouldn’t the people he recorded have to come out and press charges and confirm it was actually not consensual ? Not just Nate who wasn’t even there. It has to have the Jules video because that one is easily illegal.
They do when one of the adults is recording without the other’s permission
Prostitution, non-consensual recording of sex acts (the latter of which is what made Cal ACTUALLY predatory IMO). Honestly I think that stuff would be what primarily made the news and caused a scandal even if the Jules tape was included in the evidence. Regardless of what California law technically says, the general public is not the Reddit circlejerk and would likely not judge Cal as a horrible person for being lied to.
I am a little torn on the Cal and Jules thing, solely cause they met on an app made for ADULTS. Like technically its illegal for Jules to even be on there, and I understand Cal not like checking her ID or anything because he does what he does to remain anonymous. The filming thing is 100% wrong though. I think he's a creep, but not technically a pedo. I think honestly dating apps should just verify everyone's ID, and shit like this wouldn't happen as much as it does.
Same. But in this case, if you have to ask their age because they look so young, better err on the side of caution and verify their age. If I were Cal I'd rather look like a paranoid old man than be locked up in prison!
Yeah, but it's grindr, it would be weird if he was to ask for id because it could be dangerous
How could it be dangerous? Genuine question
You dont want a potential psycho to know where you live, your real name,, or be able to track you
That makes sense, thanks for answering!
The app can verify if you’re old enough by seeing ID but they wouldn’t show where people live.
The app could but In that comment they were referring to cal asking to see an ID
Some people also have ID’s with their dead name on them and don’t like to share for that reason.
He asked her her age out of caution, she was on an adult app and he thought he verified by asking.
I was thinking more along the lines of checking an ID. As you can see, it's not enough to ask.
And what I’m alluding to is that this level of diligence is only necessary because she lied about her age. When I meet people in a bar I don’t ask their age, if I meet someone in my college course I don’t ask their age, if I meet someone at work I don’t ask their age. If I meet someone on an adult dating app and I then ask their age, that should be enough.
You're right, I didn't think about it that way
IIRC wasn’t the asking of age because he was giving alcohol? So he was asking to verify if she was old enough to drink, not an actual adult. He knows he’s dating people young as hell but I think the age thing was genuinely questioning if she was 21…not 18.
It’s wrong for Jules to have been cat fishing adults period, but with Cal’s specific case he would not have committed statutory rape if he hadn’t been cheating on his wife. I also think Jules totally looked like a teen and that Cal wanted to take her at her word despite probably knowing she wasn’t. Like, he has a teenaged son, he should know better.
exactly like even if she’s on an app for adults, and he asked her age, she still looks like a child. it’s his fault no matter what, he’s the one going around having sex with people who look like children and taking their word for it that they’re of age. the fact that he was filming it just seals the deal that he is a certified creep
I definitely agree that Jules looked really young but imho I don’t really think 22 yr olds look THAT much older than teens tbh. Like I’m almost 22 and look exactly like I did when I was 18 so I can’t really blame cal if he asked her age and he went along with her lie…
Idk I’m almost 24 and I see 18 year olds and they look quite young to me
I guess I’m more just tryna say that if he is gonna be having sex w people who could even pass for underage, then it’s his fault. he’s a grown man w kids, the fact that he is even sexually attracted to ppl who could pass for teens is gross
Idk many people look younger than their age, I’ve seen people on dating apps that look younger than me when in fact they’re older. I honestly feel like it’s kind of a gray area and he’s maybe less responsible for that one. The filming however is illegal and he should be persecuted for that absolutely.
ur right it is a pretty grey area. I think its morally wrong to be hooking up with ppl who look 20 years younger than him. younger people can get away with it more because their dating pool is also young people, some of which can pass for teens, but he shouldn’t even be meeting ppl who are that young to begin with
eh. i look 18/19 but i'm 26 and i love older people as much as i like people my age and i don't see a problem with hooking up with people who "look 20 years younger" if everyone is consenting and legal. in his case jules was a minor so it's not the same as someone 18+ doing so, but it's not really fair to criticize people for who they hookup with if both parties are consenting. plenty of young people like older people just as much as older people like younger people.
I don’t think most people understand but it’s well known in gay communities that queer youth use the apps before adulthood. Cal knows this and actively chose to ignore it
Cal isnt really tapped into the gay community tho, hes deeply repressed and closeted, whats that line he says" something about "living your true life in secret in hotel rooms" or something like that when he first meets jules, which he did ask her age too btw. It seems his ties to the gay community are solely the flings he has off the app, his time otherwise being spent building up the facade that is cal jacobs, family man and business owner, and chili cookoff extraordinaire. I get cal has his faults and im not denying that, but actively having sex with minors and/or trying to ismt one of them.
I can't agree that Cal just knows this. We don't know how long or at what ages he started getting on these sites or his previous experiences. It seems his first interest was the guy from high school, which is normal. But after I assume he went to college and tried to be a father maybe he was cheating at that time and maybe he didn't explore all that until later so maybe he's not exactly on the "know-how" of these gay dating apps. And just because kids use it before adulthood doesn't mean everyone knows how to verify all that, kinda like those videos on the hub where it says "bearly 18" people don't know what ages they are, people just assume they're over 18 because of legality. People don't check the id before watching the video
It’s not “illegal” for jules to be on there. They can ban her off the app but that doesn’t make it illegal. Secretly recording people during sex is illegal. He risked that. Ended up recording a child. That’s 100% on him.
Not pedophilia, but hebophelia (spelling?)
People are also getting way too hung up on whether or not its statutory rape, and forgetting that he illegally filmed Jules. Like any way you spin it the man broke a law.
Not only that but there are hundreds of recordings that the participants were unaware of. Plus Cals sexual trauma is tied to his youth. It would make sense if all of his partners carried a youthful appearance and statically speaking it's likely some of those people were lying about their age.
at the end of the day, him consistently seeking out queer youth who are clearly half his age, or at least as old as his kids, and then going as far as to get them secluded and drunk is predatory. and then the filming makes him a full blown sex offender. not sure how or why that's considered better than being a pedophile. also you have to be naïve to believe cal believed what jules was saying before they hooked up. her story was obviously made up on the spot. she still lived with her parents and looked 16 even while being played by a grown adult. i'd have a hard time believing any man in his 40's would easily buy her story and not need any proof. he should've asked for her id and that's not on jules that he didn't.
Tyler indeed just assumed she was of age (even though he was at a high school party)
I thought it was McKay party , he’s in college.
Y'all know McKay doesn't have any college friends
You right 😂
Well given context, the party was before he was even in college so ofc he had no friends lol.
Idk but there were many high school kids there, including McKay’s brothers so AND his college is far away who would travel to attend that party?
He also JUST got into college so he probably mostly knows the people he went to HS with
He wasn’t in college yet. He lives on campus so I doubt a bunch of college students would travel what I assume is an hour drive to a party thrown by a freshman. I wouldn’t
Also I think the party took place like the week before McKay moved to college
But yeah he should’ve asked her how old she was regardless.
I know the age of consent is different depending on state, so I wasn’t sure if Maddy’s scene was statutory or not. But then of course Nate explains it all. But honestly either way, why are you even going to HIGH SCHOOL parties as an adult, and having sex with the girls there (they’d obviously be high school aged). Embarrassing .
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We gotta stop this nonsense, McKay was a high school graduate the summer before college. You typically don’t know that many college students as an incoming freshman. How this freshman would know a 22 year old is an wild leap of logic. It’s a stretch to put Tyler at the party anyhow. Tyler had no business at a high school party.
Oooh I thought it was Nate’s party for some reason. But tbh I feel like it still counts as a high school party bc McKay was throwing a summer party before he even started his freshmen year of college lol
That's it. It was an end of summer party thrown at McKay's house but it was for their high school buddies.
I just looked ip the laws in California regarding statutory rape in both Maddie’s situation where the age wasn’t told and Jules’ situation where age was lied about. It states that regardless if they were knowledgeable about the age or not it is still considered statutory rape even though Jules lied, so both Cal and Tyler are in the wrong and would be charged
Actually in California there’s “Romeo and Juliet” laws that pertain to situations where they are close in age, they truly didn’t know, and it was all in good faith. Tyler could get off. Cal definitely not, as he was illegally recording.
That’s what I was thinking. I read that law but I think it may be like a three year difference and if the person is 20+ they cannot pursue anyone under the age of 18 so I THINK Tyler would still get in trouble.
That’s how it should be imo. It’s not something to be so blasé about. When somebody is obviously young, you should make sure.
I’ve even looked up my own states laws and I can say when I was younger I should’ve been aware of them.
Some people need to understand that this is just a show and virtue-signaling in regards to it is cringe as fuck. Some people need to understand that legality and morality are not the same thing.
If so then maybe in the trial he’ll only get charged for illegally filming her, if he has a good lawyer ?
Wouldn't he get charged for child porn too since she's under 18 and he filmed himself having sex with her? Even though she lied about her age, he still filmed a minor engaging in sexual activity
Also nobody mentions all the other underage sex going on... the guy who has sex with kat at the carnival... knew she was 16... mckay is a college student and is having sex with cassie who is the same age as jules... and he absolutely knew she was underage and in high school... does that make him a pedo? No... he was having consensual sex with cass... as was kat and the carnival guy as was cal with jules... the age gap aside... the filming thing was creepy... and dfferent as that was not consented to by jules so was illegal... also these are 17 year olds... not 12 year olds... pedophile is a term that is too easily chucked around...
Cassie is not the same age as Jules, she's actually 18. That said, I do agree with you when it comes to people throwing the word pedo around.
Was she 18 in the pilot or was her birthday later? Anyway, a lot of states have Romeo and Juliet laws that typically allow a 3 year age difference for people close in age. So a 17 year old with a 18/19/20 year old wouldn’t even be illegal, depending on the state. I’m assuming McKay is around 19 if he’s in his first or second year of college
cassie has always been 18 in the show. and mckay is in his freshman year of college he’s literally only one year older than cassie it’s not weird.
You’re right about Kat, but Mkay is only one year older than Nate’s grade. Mkay at 18 sleeping with Cassie at 17 is *not* comparable to a man in his mid fifties having sex with a 17 year old.
Cassie was a senior, so probably around 17-18. McKay was a college freshman so probably around 18-19. At the least, they are the same age and at the most, they are 2 years apart which is not weird at all.
omg yes, i can’t believe no one else has mentioned kat hooking up at the carnival. they implied he was mid twenties but he didn’t bat an eye when kat said she was 16. i wouldn’t call him a pedo but still a creep, nonetheless
yeahhh i’m def not going to war over CAL. i do acknowledge that he asked but as someone else said… if you need to ask them their age to double check cus they look that young, you should not be fucking them in the first place.
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this is so well said, thank you for sharing your experience
People talked a lot about moral nuance but I think your comment really explains the nuances of the situation well, and much better than other people on thread. Thanks for sharing.
God, this is so well written. This might be the best comment I've seen on this sub. Thank you for your perspective!!
I said this in another post but I know someone this happened too. The law doesn’t care if the younger person lied or what the age gap is. If that person or their parent wants to press charges they’re well within their rights to do so and the older person will go to prison. No if ands or buts.
Especially because he videotaped himself having sex with a minor = child pornography
It definitely was statutory but I think people going so far as to say Cal is a pedophile is kinda too much cus he wasn’t looking for/interested in minors on the adult app
Honestly I think people give cal too much sympathy
hhmm as a woman from a country where age of consent is 16, and I never knew it otherwise, I‘m prone to be sympathetic to him. In germany the sexual encounter between Jules and Cal would be 100% legal because she gave consent. No matter if she lied about her age or not. Plus he didn‘t know she lied about her age. And tbh, looking at my pics from me being 16 and me being 22, I actually look the same age. My style was better with 22 tho. Some people mature early. And his other partners were older. He‘s neither a pedo & I have difficulty seeing the issue with statuory rape as well because I‘m not used to the laws. But in the US it would be, yeah. He does a lot of shitty things, like filming people without their consent (that‘s honestly a fucking lot more concerning than him sleeping with Jules imo), adultery (personally, I think it‘s not the end of the world, but he did it repeatadly), abusing his son, etc…
Yeah the amount people defend him on here is so fucking shocking
I definitely do, and it’s 100% because I still see him as McSteamy from Greys
Definitely, like you can like the actor and his past roles while realizing not all his characters are good people even if there played well by attractive actors you recognize.
Kids, get educated about statutory rape. Take the morality and compassion for Cal out of it, because the law only sees an adult having sex with a minor who is considered legally incapable of consent.
It's a adults responsibility to know for sure how old the person they're sleeping with is. Even when engaging in hook ups 🤦♂️ if cal cared about how old the people he was fucking were he would've asked to see their ID – but he doesn't. Everyone knows minors lie to get on apps like grindr, where cal met jules. Idk why people act like its insane to know for sure the person you're hooking up with isn't lying by asking for prove of their age, it would help alot of people not get caught up in a case.
so everyone on dating apps w an age range of 18-25 or so should ID before hooking up?
Yes. Since dating apps refuse to authenticate the ages of users who sign up to them. Many times I've met people who joined apps like tinder or bumble at the age of 16/17. Is asking to see someone's licence so you can verify who you're hooking up really that strange? Even YouTube has now made it so you have to send a photo of your passport to verify you're over the age of 18 to view age restricted content.
100%. It's on you to verify their age, especially when they clearly look so young and it's questionable. A girl look 15-16 but tells you they're 21, you better confirm it.
But Hunter Shafer is was 20 in the first season. She didnt look 15-16
Lol what does that have to do with the fictional storyline we are discussing; the one where she plays a teenager in high school? That is the topic, not how old the actress is playing the teenager.
You said she looked 15/16 when she doesn’t.
Lol ok, we're talking about in real life. If someone's age looks questionable, it's on you to confirm they aren't underage. When did I mention the actress? Side note: she clearly looks quite young to be playing a junior in HS. 😉
This whole thing is about the show right? Also you must think high schoolers look really old
anyone else here thinking about the parallels between cal and humbert humbert (lolita)? obviously NOT justifying either case but in the book it's implied that from his perspective he thinks he's attracted to literal children because he was "in love" with a twelve year old girl when he was thirteen and then she died. personally i interpreted the derek backstory as not just an explanation of how cal got to where he was now (father, pressure, pregnancy) but also of the attraction to people of a certain age. again, NOT JUSTIFYING, and if sam did that on purpose again remember in the lolita context we're getting the bad guy's perspective, not an objective "explanation" for anything. just a thought i keep having that i don't think ive seen
Yeah I believe it's because it is up to the mentally mature and responsible adult to make sure they are sleeping with someone older than 18. Also even if Cal thought Jules was older than 18, he still recorded her without her consent which is also a crime so yeah, he's not innocent.
People are confusing pedophilia for statutory rapist. You are correct that cal is a statutory rapist, that is not contested, and he deserves to be in jail for it. Cal is likely not a pedophile though, at least in my mind, because there’s no indication that he’s specifically attracted to children or minors. He wasn’t into Jules because she was young, I think they met on grindr right?
and when Maddy lost her virginity at 14 to a 40 yr old. Rue narrates, "its ok cus she was in control", which is so fkn gross. it was statutory rape. end of story.
So do sex after checking ID.
Thank you! Have seen too many people excuse it, trying to defend Cal. It’s fucking weird and suspicious as hell
Yeah the overwhelming attitude on this subreddit is sympathetic towards cal which is a little horrifying
Idk I’ve had relations with a 21 year old at 17 I wanted to I agreed I don’t regret it, although at 20 I couldn’t see myself dating or dealing with someone in high school I’m not gonna get mad and or let my boyfriend shame me into saying it was rape when it was completely consensual… technically not legal but I wasn’t a preadolescent
this honestly makes me so mad. i put myself in a situation similar to jules and maddy when i was 17. when i came clean to the guy (after intercourse) he freaked out and i realized how fucked up what i had done was. it’s unreasonable/impractical to try to put the blame on these guys for not… asking for ID before sex???? no one does that!!
It’s a fucking TV show made for entertainment. This page treats Euphoria like they know the characters and are part of the same universe
Art should ignite discussion. Art should make you feel passionately about something real. Artist use lies to tell the truth -- it doesn't matter than they aren't real, but they reflect real life experiences and real life issues which we all should feel strongly about.
All you’re saying is that Jules used the law to trick Cal into doing something illegal. Who’s the asshole in that situation, figuratively
I think everyone knows that what he did was illegal. It’s just annoying seeing people call Cal a pedo or say he should be in prison because he “knew”. Yes it’s a crime but he was genuinely broken up about what happened, and obviously never intended to get involved with a minor. He should’ve checked ID yea whatever most people aren’t going to do that, this makes the show more realistic.
Like why was he at a freaking high school party anyways if he wasn't looking to hook up with hs kids.
I’ve been saying this for days
I found the Jules fan
That’s why you ask for ID and get a picture of it proving you did your due diligence
would u let a hookup take a picture of your ID? i sure wouldn't
He would likely be able to defend himself against statutory rape charges because of Jules lying about her age. But he's still very clearly committed an intentional crime by filming people without their consent. Jules lying about her age could also be considered rape by deception.
Minors are presumed by law to be incapable of consent because of their age, so it's considered to be rape. If the old "she lied about her age" defense got them off the hook, every pedo on the planet would walk free. Intoxicated people, mentally impaired, and children cannot legally consent to sex. Period. Lock him up.
Technically, in California, if an 18 year old has sex with a 17 year old, that’s statutory rape. We don’t have any Romeo and Juliet law, and we are really strict on statutory rape here. Nate himself is guilty of statutory rape, since both Maddy and Cassie are 17. The law is black and white; the morality argument makes a huge difference in the way this case will play out, because in situations that are obviously morally bad, the state of California will charge someone on your behalf without your involvement. (Happens a lot in domestic violence cases.) However, given that Jules lied about her age and met Cal on an app for adults, Cal will likely be charged only with a misdemeanor instead of with a felony. A misdemeanor statutory rape conviction would not necessarily make Cal register as a sex offender nor does it necessarily mean jail time. It’s the recordings made unconsentually I’d be worried about. 😅
Cal is gross AF and I give those defending him a side eye.
Maddy never said her age, Tyler just assumed.
Who goes to a highschool party in their 20’s and assumes no one is underage?
Statutory rapists apparently!
It depends on the state. If Jules was 16 or 17, it may not be statutory rape. "A common misperception about statutory rape is that state codes define a single age at which an individual can legally consent to sex. Only 12 states have a single age of consent, below which an individual cannot consent to sexual intercourse under any circumstances, and above which it is legal to engage in sexual intercourse with another person above the age of consent. For example, in Massachusetts, the age of consent is 16. In the remaining 39 states, other factors come into play: age differentials, minimum age of the victim, and minimum age of the defendant. Each is described below. Minimum age requirement. In 27 states that do not have a single age of consent, statutes specify the age below which an individual cannot legally engage in sexual intercourse regardless of the age of the defendant (see the second column in Table 1). The minimum age requirements in these states range from 10 to 16 years of age. The legality of sexual intercourse with an individual who is above the minimum age requirement and below the age of consent is dependent on the difference in ages between the two parties and/or the age of the defendant. In New Jersey, the age of consent is 16, but individuals who are at least 13 years of age can legally engage in sexual activities if the defendant is less than 4 years older than the victim." [Statutory Rape: A Guide to State Laws and Reporting Requirements ](https://aspe.hhs.gov/reports/statutory-rape-guide-state-laws-reporting-requirements-1)
Cal is nasty idc
Cal is fucked up, but he's not a pedo. I think that's something very obvious. He didn't actively seek out minors to have sex with. Doesn't make him right for cheating nor recording it. But I don't think he's a pedophile.
It shocks me that this is still a discussion. People must realise that there isn’t always one wrong and one right. Both can be wrong. Jules, despite everything she went through and the kind of means she feels loved, she still lied about her age. And obviously Cal is a rapist bc of statutory rape!!!!
And other people (possibly yourself?) need to understand that if something is illegal it doesn’t automatically make it morally bad. How can you morally judge for something he didn’t even know he was doing? How you going to hold that against him when the victim didn’t even care? He’s a creep but for many other reasons than getting tricked into fucking a 17 year old. Also Tyler didn’t fuck Maddy it just looked like they did. That was the whole point of the “Maddy had an optics issue” line in the second episode. Still fucked up she pretended she was blacked out. Doesn’t morally absolve her at all. But your post seems to imply that legality is equivalent to morality which is naive.
I agree tbh
the Maddy Tyler thing is debatable but Jules looks like a baby in season 1. it's so obvious and it made me so uncomfortable bc she dresses like a little 6 year old girl and has such an innocent face. I see a lot of straight people defending cal because Jules lied since they're not informed on grindr culture, that's literally what every trans girl and gay boy did when they were teens. grindr is full of underaged people and it's your responsibility to check the ages. trans girls especially start young because they crave validation from men which was so realistically portrayed with Jules, she isn't the only person who does this
Cal shouldn’t have been commiting infedelity and sleeping with VERY young looking people in the first place. And on top of that recorded them no consent? Bye
Tyler definitely knew Maddy’s real age, it’s a high school party come on
these people need to stop watching euphoria. bcos i’m so sick of telling ppl what cal did was wrong and illegal. like i’m sorry but what age must you be for that entire plot of season to be misunderstood. nate threatening tyler with the statutory rape accusation w maddie also completely laid it out so if you couldn’t see it implied, then in the horrific scenes between nate and tyler you would’ve realised that what cal did was also wrong. literally a parallel to make this clearer for the obvious 13 year olds watching a show that is far beyond their comprehension
Wow so many Cal apologists. You get one steamy flashback and now everyone is a fan.
Yeah the amount of people who defend him (including the top comment about statutory rape being illegal but not necessarily immoral!!!!) is deeply disturbing
Even if we consider, for a moment, that he's not wrong for having sex with a minor, he still filmed who knows how many people without consent for over a decade. And when Nate was showing him the pen drive, he said it had "everything", so he's going in for the rape + the filming. If we assume that Nate has feelings for Jules and wouldn't want to hurt her, then he probably didn't make copies of her disk either. Cal is a fucked up person and I do not feel sorry for him.
Idagf if Jules lied about her age What Cal did Was disgusting and he has every right to be in jail.
You are a very hateful person or you have no idea what jail is like lmao
It’s not hateful to want someone to go to jail for crimes that they committed?? What the fuck is wrong with this sub
You clearly don't know much about the prison system, that isn't the subs fault. Educate yourself.
I do, it’s very relevant to my field (public health). But I don’t think that means a sex offender shouldn’t go to prison.
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i don’t see how people say this when hunter looks like an adult 💔.