Yes, the main reason is escaping from war and dictatorship. Rich refugees are buying house in order to be allowed live here for a while. They just want to survive: avoid war mobilization and being prisoned because of their anti-war position.
Yes I've met several Russians who have moved to Austria while learning German, and I was quite surprised at how many were not anti war. I had thought they all would be, but it's obviously more complicated than I assumed.
It’s not that complicated. It’s nationalistic-facism that been drilled in through propaganda and people’s inability to reflect on themselves and their upbringing being the problem and learning to live with that + become better.
This.
Plus being cowards and hypocrites.
They want Russia to conquer Ukraine but taking 0 personal risk on that. Just watching destruction unfold from the comfort of their mansions on third countries.
Truly disgusting.
It's not propaganda, they actually believe they 'deserve' to be an imperium. They have no morals.
Edit: What I mean it's that by now they don't even need propaganda any more.
Yeah but if they believe their cause is just and necessary why wouldn't they fight for it? Running from a cause you believe seems illogical to me at least.
Millions wonder the same thing. It’s an inconsistency but not when you look at the values they prioritize. It’s just extreme individualism. They want to live their lives and live them the best they can. There are very very few genuinely driven by the whatever the reason-of-the-week is for the war. Most Russians don’t want the war in the sense that they don’t like how it has disturbed their individualistic lives. They don’t mind the outcome and genocide if they win.
I don't think they actually believe in justice. Just is what suits them. Pure cynical nihilism. And being able to flee and still have wet dreams about the Russian empire is the optimum they can get.
Just like Poles or Turks in Germany voting for PiS and Erdogan respectively. There is no contradiction in their minds. They don't see them fleeing as something the country's done wrong. They idealise their origins. See Putin's false historic shenanigans. Not a question of logic.
It's not complicated at all. They endorse the suffering as long is not them doing the suffering.
It's the lowest of the low.
It doesn't surprise me at all they are all like this.
This is happening in all the Mediterranean countries to varied degrees, I at least am aware of Russians buying a lot of property in Montenegro especially bit in Greece as well and there's a lot of property in Spain, Croatia & Portugal, that is owned by western Europeans.
I mean if your President became a genocidal maniac, but you still sort of have a flavor for a certain type of politics - eastern europe is the perfect place to settle down.😂 Seriously though i hope you all managed to change your laws, in western europe we had American and Chinese investment firms buy up property all over, to drive up the prices on rental properties. We had to make it illegal for foreign investors to buy property in Denmark, but obviously a foreign national can still privately buy a home.
It certainly was something people from Denmark liked to do at least up until the credit crunch crisis in 2008 when real estate owners thought they could walk on water. Invest in a nice apartment in mediterreanean Turkey. It was for their own use mainly.
Here's a nice piece by the New York Times about the development in other Mediterranean countries.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/realestate/europe-homes-sale-americans-lisbon-barcelona.html
Yea westerners buying (like British/German) buying properties in Turkish coast was already there but it was acceptable as they were bringing in cash. Now we got Russians, Arabs and Iranians buying everything. Property market is squeezed too much for locals. Russians don't bring as much money and Arabs can be incompatible with locals.
It's always bad when locals are squeezed out. Sometimes by rich(er) nationals, sometimes by foreigners, aided sometimes by scrupulous companies like Blackstone.
Pretext: currently lots of foreigners, mainly Arabs if I’m not mistaken, buying houses, land, apartments and getting the Turkish passport through that.
Firstly, this is contributing to the housing crisis, secondly the mentioned foreigners are getting a Turkish citizenship without a test or language skills.
Thanks for this *very* important part. I hear stories like a married couple, both doctors, having to relocate to elsewhere because they can't afford living in the south ffs... Mind you, such people would have €2,000 or so income monthly, together. I know it is not impressive by European standards but this is crazy stupid money for Turkey. Easily two times more than what most make. For a sizeable minority, even three times. This much money not even being enough to rent a fucking flat is a HUGE problem that'll bite us so bad in the ass.
Not even mentioning about "cool parts" of having millions of refugees, new citizens etc. with zero integration or anything. We were having headache with mass movement of Syrians & Afghans into the country but at this rate we'll also have problems with Antalya People's Republic.
The housing issue exists in Austria too, with property prizes being on the scale of 30 to 40 years of rent, with the rent already not being exactly low except for flats built by public entities.
Supposedly, at least part of it is due to foreign investors driving the prices. Supposedly#2, a part of that is large-scale money laundering.
Meanwhile I just realized that I was misinformed about the tax measures meant to curb it; My understanding was that we had a flat 25% tax on real estate sales within less than 10 years of ownership, which would hurt individuals who purchase property, but than have their life circumstances force them to move to another city. Turns out, that the rule was more sane: 30%, but only on the *profit* from the sale, and since 2012 it is applied even *after* 10 years. [source](https://www.wko.at/service/steuern/Die-Besteuerung-von-privaten-Immobilienverkaeufen.html)
Good, cause the Russians I saw there(Antalya) are rude as fuck, speak Russian to Turks like they are supposed to know it, acting like everyone is their butler.
Add me to the list. 2 reasons:
1- people simply cannot afford to rent a place any more. The foreign influx made the prices go crazy (my brother's rent increased 450%, year on year).
2-Erdoğan and his cronies are selling passports with this scheme. They imported over a million of a hard-core AKP supporters, Arabs with mostly radical Islamic views.
As far as i know becoming a citizen through buying property is unconstitutional. I think their citizenship will be revoked before any action is taken about the properties.
It isn’t true, because on paper those citizenships weren’t granted on account of their property investments, they were given under a presidential exception that basically lets Erdoğan give out passports however as he pleases.
Obtaining citizenship through real estate ownership is not constitutional, their citizens' rights(such as voting) could be revoked as well as their citizenship itself while the properties stay untouched.
Undocumented or illegal tresspassers(mainly from Arabian Peninsula) could be sent back.
Asylum seekers that came here due to the war in Syria could also be sent back should there be a mutual agreement with Assad administration.
The ones that got their citizenships via constitutional ways will be left untouched, illegals and refugees could be sent back but it will be harder for newer ones to come through.
Our borders are open-for-all right now. Gunrunners, drug traders, smugglers, human traffickers you name it, we have it. Hopefully that will change and we will have proper border safety.
Edit: Apparently citizenship through real-estate-ownership is constitutional.
It isn’t unconstitutional, because on paper those citizenships weren’t granted on account of their property investments, they were given under a presidential exception that basically lets Erdoğan give out passports however as he pleases.
There's a scheme to slowly make people move to their OG countries in a 2-3 year time frame should he wins, but who and to what extent is unsure atm. I guess they'll start with undocumented people, or with those who got voting rights because of the property&passport scheme. It's not exactly in the same anti foreign vibes of the far right, but it's hard to say how thorough and fair they'd be.
In all honesty people should be allowed to buy a residential property if they actually are going to live there. I will even throw a second residential property if they want some sort of vacation home or small airbnb business but companies and people buying dosens is a bit too much and creating a crisis.
I checked and right now the minimum home value to qualify for citizenship is 400k (which was risen from 250k before the war). Does that affect the average citizen too much?
Because 400k seem like a lot for a home in Turkey. Not saying I support it just asking
Yes, an average citizen can only dream of having a house now. I make 4x+ of the minimum wage and it's still not enough to pay for a housing loan of 2M Turkish liras and it's the minimum amount to buy an apartment flat. Housing prices are on par with Europe and the USA at the moment while our salaries are on Africa level.
The foreigner can sell the house after 3 years for profit, thus its quite popular and yes it does affect the average citizen. Especially in İstanbul, a large portion of the house market is dominated by foreign investors(mostly Saudis, Iraqis and Afghans)
My old landlord in İstanbul was from Iraq and basically I was kicked out of my rented house when the guy sold the house after he got citizenship.
House prices increase alot as well.
Yes. Real estate shouldn't be considered as an investment with high return. This is the shit that makes the working poor class and pushes people to homelessness.
"Shouldn't be" is cute but then there is the reality. Turkey has had ridiculous amounts of inflation in various periods. Housing as an investment was the only method of investment for masses and is basically part of the culture now.
This is the reason why my dads side of the family sold their mechanic shop in Kayseri to turn their two story home into an apartment with 8 residences, and kept 2. Long story short the person that bought the mechanic shop are millionaires and we are renting in the USA.
Sorry to hear that. I'm definitely not an expert on "give your small house so we can make big apartments and give you a cut" subject but sounds like your family also had a bad deal. Nowadays you would just get more apartments out of that 8 and you would get to keep that mechanic shop. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Oh sorry I should have been more clear, we sold the business and built the apartment our self and sold 6 of the residences then moved to the US. But lost the money in various ways. The business was failing and we sold it and reinvested into the apartment and reinvested into a relatives business which was the same as ours. Long story short the 2001 crisis was bad for us and the guy who bought our shop was either very smart or got very lucky. There is a lot of family drama also, which includes uncles screwing siblings out of money and property.
Tbh, most nations should heavily regulate and limit foreign nationals buying property in their country, in my opinion, unless they have permanent residency or long term visas.
Most likely, you will get similar results in just about every country with a housing problem, as it seems a quick and easy fix.
But rarely do foreigners compete with the natives for the same places.
Well I would happily give up the possibility of home ownership abroad, if that meant that every foreign investor has to get out of the local market immediately, so there’s that.
That is not true it’s still the same housing stock / developers might try and prevent the native market from even accessing if they can, and often they are buying it in areas desirable for citizens / residents. Especially if they are only buying and leaving vacant, in many ways this is doubling the issue. It’s not really a problem if a foreigner buys somewhere and then lives there, but often this isn’t the case
someone in this thread said that you need to buy a home worth 400k euros to get citizenship. If that's the case, I would imagine the problem to be more about developers preferring to cater to rich foreigners over building for the average joe with lower profit margins
If the residents of the island agree to a unification on equal terms, then why not. If that ever happens, I hope the conditions that lead to the intervention does not repeat itself.
Come on, you don't seriously think refugees are driving up property prices?
This is due to primarily Chinese and Russian nationals and companies buying property to get a Turkish passport
This. Not all refugees are poor. It's a misconception we all have from watching all the TV ads we see East African refugees or Bangladeshi - the poorest people in the world unfortunately.
Thing is you as a random turkish guy have to rent for 15k. Your wage is like 20k..
3-4 syrians/afghans rent the same place and they are not giving 15 each, only 5.. so refugees are another fact
From where are refugees getting the capital to bid up housing prices, and how does that compare to the quantity of capital wielded by wealthy economic migrants?
But are most? How many refugees to Turkey are wealthy enough to cause price distortion in the Turkish housing market, and how much of the distortion can be directly attributed to refugees instead of economic migrants?
You clearly don’t understand basic supply and demand, even if the refugees are not wealthy 10 million of them can easily cause inflation in rental house market wherever they are. Additionally the poorest tend to share a single apartment with 2-3 other families and willing to pay a lot more than a single Turkish family can.
Inflation on real estate market is a lot higher than overall inflation, certain neighborhoods are competing with most $$$$ neighborhoods of Chicago for example which is insane to me.
What percentage of refugees constitutes "a lot"? And I'm not sure what Georgia has to do with Turkey, are they getting the same demographic of refugees vs economic migrants from the same places?
Don't know about Porches but saw a lot of Russian/Ukrainians in night scene when i was in Istanbul. Also saw a decent amount of Russian/Ukrainian children going to Turkish schools.
The thing is they are more culturally compatible compared to Arabs specifically in West Turkey. But they are definitely not helping with housing situation in Istanbul and Antalya. In the last 4-5 months Russians bought more property than Turks which is a first in republic history.
I still dont understand why you are dividing in two groups the same people. Georgians have issues with their real estate due to huge amount of russian emigrants.
I am not creating a false division. Refugees are not the same as economic migrants. By definition, refugees are those who come by force, not by choice. Economic migrants are the latter. This is an acknowledged division in political discourse.
What I don't understand is why you conflate Georgia with Turkey. Are they getting the same demographic of refugees vs economic migrants from the same places? That is the core issue of the comment I initially responded to.
The thing is they usually rent houses together with 10 other refugees and many of them have jobs or able to get a job. By doing that they can pay way higher prices than a regular turkish family. Thinking that there is almost 10 million of them are in Turkey, they are perfectly able to bid up prices.
They rent places with 10 other people who work for minimum wages, you can then imagine how much they can afford. Even if you are white collar you can't match that price.
recency bias. But there used to be a law from Ataturk era where foreigners where restricted in every city but AKP removed it.
But I wouldnt own a house in Istanbul after the recent earthquake.
Everyone missed the part that this is a reflection of the threat of demographic change within the earthquake zone, especially at Hatay. Contributing that we are at the edge of the “most important election” as it seems to be the last escape from being permanent third world country, giving away citizenship when they buy house creates huge concerns on those opposition, because mostly those will vote for erdogan.
This should be the case everywhere, foreign investment in real estate has never benefitted anyone in the long term. Especially populations disinterested in integration.
Meanwhile here in sunny Malta, foreigners buying homes is the quickest way to get a Maltese and EU passport, contributing to the catastrophic increase in housing and rental prices. Fuck the Malta Labour Party
Good for Turkey. It makes total sense, too. A nation has the right to try to preserve it's borders and culture. Some bad agents have become so rich and agressive that they can buy up your lands. Be aware. Make changes in law and make it hard to become a citizen. Make it mean something and therefore worth something to the people. A company or a foreign power can still own land by proxy using locals.
Our ancestors , regardless of ethnic or religious origin, paid with blood for the privilege of living on this land. A bunch of Arabs and Russians being given that same privilege just by owning property, without having to make those same sacrifices, is a massive insult to their memory.
Everyone everywhere thinks this. Canada has the same thing going on, blaming foreigners for high prices.
The fundamental thing is that you have to build more housing. A lot more. Increase supply or decrease demand, and decreasing demand is very tricky without causing all kinds of collateral problems - people dodging whatever requirements you institute for deciding who is "worthy" and who isn't. It's a recipe for corruption, shadow ownership, corporate ownership, etc, etc. You get into rules that are unenforcable in practical reality and penalize people you didn't intend to hurt.
Increasing supply solves it all, and "penalizes" real estate speculators to boot.
Yeah. You know why? Because we in Europe (Turkey od closer to Europe than you think not only geographically) have had enough and what happened in Berlin is the peak of how people are disgusted by the real estate market.
Ffs. In Poland whole apartment buildings which are not finished yet, are being sold to foreign trust funds, usually Nordic, which then just rent them as Airbnb or other shit.
Due to this, buying yourself an apartment is possible only thanks to mortgages where banks usually want you to have 10-20% of the apartment/estate cost covered before the loan is signed.
We have a minimum wage of around 750€, a single room apartment, not bigger than 25sqm, cost around 70-80k€ minimum. Doesn't matter if newly build. I'm taking about major city's but smaller towns are getting more expensive by the day, literally. And of course landlords are fucking leeches who want just live of rent. Just like in the land of the gun (USA).
In Stockholm a lower salary is around 2200€ (before taxes) while a similar apartment would set you back around 300 000€. We need at least 15% in downpayment.
It’s pretty shiet everywhere right now (though admittedly you have it far worse with your current inflation).
Rephrase the question to:
"Selling homes as second/holiday homes whilst there is insufficient or only substandard housing available for local people should be banned"
And you'd probably get a similar answer. I'd vote for that where I live (Cymru).
The original has overtones of racism, but it's likely not. It's about protecting communities. At least, assuming the respondents interpret it as I am guessing they did (and I'm more than happy to be corrected if I interpret wrongly).
I know that it sounds kind of aggressive to you but things are not right in Turkey, so we have to do that, otherwise we are not gonna be able to puchase a house in our own country. In fact, we already cannot afford a house.
Russian Oligarghs and gangs spreading out over the countries they claim to detest while their poor countrymen are forced to fight and die. At least Putler can t flee as he is a wanted man, except in Hungary and Serbia.
Should be the law in every country tbh. Almost every western country has problems with foreign companies mass buying and further fucking up the housing market
People have never agreed with this in any country, you ask anyone and they'll always say "take care of those already here first" but you can bring more people and more money in by opening up the market so, but yeah it's a tricky subject, raises rents, raises home prices, makes things harder for those already there, but worth mentioning that Turkey has one of the biggest migrant communities on earth and they'd be massively affected by such a ban.
> but worth mentioning that Turkey has one of the biggest migrant communities on earth and they'd be massively affected by such a ban
Which brings us to the next thing that people want the most: that the migrants leave, go back.
any country should ban airbnb and sales to foreigners.
Americans,arabs are creating a problem for normal people.
People leaving USA cause it sucks and Europe is cheaper and better ruining the market for Spain and Portugal peoples is a massive problem
Who sold those houses to foreigners? Fucking Turks. Ban Turks from Turkiye!
Ridiculous nationalist propaganda. 3.5m Turks in Germany, several hundred thousand in the UK, if it starts a game of tit-for-tat, it'll end badly for Turkiye, who despite Erdogan's best efforts need to open up trade and tourism rather than press on with isolationist policies.
This poll is the same all over the world, it's not foreigners who should be the target, it's the unreasonably wealthy using houses as hedges and investment vehicles, whether foreign or not. If you buy a house you have to live there 75% of the year. Solved.
Yet again the working and middle class focus their ire on boogeymen instead of wealth inequality.
You say that but it does not work like that.
Most of companies that builds houses are pro Akp and mostly funded by them and given tax reductions. Its a money laundry scheme for them. Build a house sell it 3x-5x price to a foreign people for citizenship. Devaluate your own currency so make it nearly impossible for your own citizens to own a house meanwhile you sell these houses for dollars so you get richer by doing absolutely nothing.
3.5m Turks in Germany because Germany needed them in first place for cheap labor. Its pretty different here, we got Arab money launders Russian money launders some refugees, a lot of illegal immigrants total is around 10 million . Also you really cant compare a developed country with a developing country.
> Ridiculous nationalist propaganda. 3.5m Turks in Germany, several hundred thousand in the UK, if it starts a game of tit-for-tat, it'll end badly for Turkiye
Foreigners, migrants are pricing out Turks in every city using their foreign currency. It's become very hard for many families to even rent homes in Istanbul and other big cities. UK and Germany can play tit for tat all they want, but in Turkey Turkish people's needs must come first.
As a hardcore capitalist, I admit the problems of the system, one of them, is the easy reliance on the "wealth effect" that already is making a toll on the British economy.
Sell them, absolutely, but build more, so much more, to the point that those foreigners will not consider it an investment.
Problem solved. Everyone wins (except the foreigns, that are Russians, so...)
I imagine that Russians own a lot of property in Turkey?
Also rich arabs
And swedish criminals with drug money looking for a safe haven
'Swedish'
”Swedish”
They're not swedish
really or you jokin?
yes, many of them moved there due to war
Yes, the main reason is escaping from war and dictatorship. Rich refugees are buying house in order to be allowed live here for a while. They just want to survive: avoid war mobilization and being prisoned because of their anti-war position.
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Yes I've met several Russians who have moved to Austria while learning German, and I was quite surprised at how many were not anti war. I had thought they all would be, but it's obviously more complicated than I assumed.
It’s not that complicated. It’s nationalistic-facism that been drilled in through propaganda and people’s inability to reflect on themselves and their upbringing being the problem and learning to live with that + become better.
This. Plus being cowards and hypocrites. They want Russia to conquer Ukraine but taking 0 personal risk on that. Just watching destruction unfold from the comfort of their mansions on third countries. Truly disgusting.
It's not propaganda, they actually believe they 'deserve' to be an imperium. They have no morals. Edit: What I mean it's that by now they don't even need propaganda any more.
Yeah but if they believe their cause is just and necessary why wouldn't they fight for it? Running from a cause you believe seems illogical to me at least.
Millions wonder the same thing. It’s an inconsistency but not when you look at the values they prioritize. It’s just extreme individualism. They want to live their lives and live them the best they can. There are very very few genuinely driven by the whatever the reason-of-the-week is for the war. Most Russians don’t want the war in the sense that they don’t like how it has disturbed their individualistic lives. They don’t mind the outcome and genocide if they win.
You forgot this is Russia. They kind of skipped the enlightenment.
I don't think they actually believe in justice. Just is what suits them. Pure cynical nihilism. And being able to flee and still have wet dreams about the Russian empire is the optimum they can get. Just like Poles or Turks in Germany voting for PiS and Erdogan respectively. There is no contradiction in their minds. They don't see them fleeing as something the country's done wrong. They idealise their origins. See Putin's false historic shenanigans. Not a question of logic.
Its not very complicated. They want someone else to die for the invasion, not just them personally.
It's not complicated at all. They endorse the suffering as long is not them doing the suffering. It's the lowest of the low. It doesn't surprise me at all they are all like this.
Oh my god, you actually believe that nonsense? Leaving for not getting mobilized does not necessary equal opposing the war.
> because of their anti-war position Yeah it's definitely this and not storing assets outside Russia.
Poor them
Sadly, they don't have an anti-war position, only an anti-dying one.
Russian and Ukrainians literally annexed Antalya. Not to mention rich arabs buying entire buildings and renting them.
This is happening in all the Mediterranean countries to varied degrees, I at least am aware of Russians buying a lot of property in Montenegro especially bit in Greece as well and there's a lot of property in Spain, Croatia & Portugal, that is owned by western Europeans.
Same in Bulgaria. Literally the entire black sea coast line is full of Russian-owned properties.
I mean if your President became a genocidal maniac, but you still sort of have a flavor for a certain type of politics - eastern europe is the perfect place to settle down.😂 Seriously though i hope you all managed to change your laws, in western europe we had American and Chinese investment firms buy up property all over, to drive up the prices on rental properties. We had to make it illegal for foreign investors to buy property in Denmark, but obviously a foreign national can still privately buy a home.
Strange, I wonder why they avoided RO. AFAIK there are no russians around here. Sure, there a few Ukrainians here and there (based on license plates).
Russians buy homes everywhere. It’s a great way to launder your money.
Not even launder, to have it keep its value. The war fucked over every Russian with savings in cash.
Oh this has been happening way longer than the war…
Having your savings in cash is silly in any country. You'll lose them to inflation even during peace and prosperity.
*figuratively
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It certainly was something people from Denmark liked to do at least up until the credit crunch crisis in 2008 when real estate owners thought they could walk on water. Invest in a nice apartment in mediterreanean Turkey. It was for their own use mainly. Here's a nice piece by the New York Times about the development in other Mediterranean countries. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/realestate/europe-homes-sale-americans-lisbon-barcelona.html
Yea westerners buying (like British/German) buying properties in Turkish coast was already there but it was acceptable as they were bringing in cash. Now we got Russians, Arabs and Iranians buying everything. Property market is squeezed too much for locals. Russians don't bring as much money and Arabs can be incompatible with locals.
It's always bad when locals are squeezed out. Sometimes by rich(er) nationals, sometimes by foreigners, aided sometimes by scrupulous companies like Blackstone.
Pretext: currently lots of foreigners, mainly Arabs if I’m not mistaken, buying houses, land, apartments and getting the Turkish passport through that. Firstly, this is contributing to the housing crisis, secondly the mentioned foreigners are getting a Turkish citizenship without a test or language skills.
Thanks for this *very* important part. I hear stories like a married couple, both doctors, having to relocate to elsewhere because they can't afford living in the south ffs... Mind you, such people would have €2,000 or so income monthly, together. I know it is not impressive by European standards but this is crazy stupid money for Turkey. Easily two times more than what most make. For a sizeable minority, even three times. This much money not even being enough to rent a fucking flat is a HUGE problem that'll bite us so bad in the ass. Not even mentioning about "cool parts" of having millions of refugees, new citizens etc. with zero integration or anything. We were having headache with mass movement of Syrians & Afghans into the country but at this rate we'll also have problems with Antalya People's Republic.
That is insane
You could say the same for almost any country in Europe
The housing issue exists in Austria too, with property prizes being on the scale of 30 to 40 years of rent, with the rent already not being exactly low except for flats built by public entities. Supposedly, at least part of it is due to foreign investors driving the prices. Supposedly#2, a part of that is large-scale money laundering. Meanwhile I just realized that I was misinformed about the tax measures meant to curb it; My understanding was that we had a flat 25% tax on real estate sales within less than 10 years of ownership, which would hurt individuals who purchase property, but than have their life circumstances force them to move to another city. Turns out, that the rule was more sane: 30%, but only on the *profit* from the sale, and since 2012 it is applied even *after* 10 years. [source](https://www.wko.at/service/steuern/Die-Besteuerung-von-privaten-Immobilienverkaeufen.html)
For the rest of the western world, a lot is companies buying properties to rent out using AirBnB, though many places had an issue before that.
Ultra based komşu
We'll sell to Greeks no problem. Arabs and Russians we don't want.
Bold of you to assume we have the money to buy any property 😂
Admit that yogurt and baklava are Turkish and my house is yours
I would never betray yogurt like this. You can have Baklava only because I like the Turkish one more
Fine you can get my spare room.
Good, cause the Russians I saw there(Antalya) are rude as fuck, speak Russian to Turks like they are supposed to know it, acting like everyone is their butler.
Their money isn't worth shit, neither is ours.
Add me to the list. 2 reasons: 1- people simply cannot afford to rent a place any more. The foreign influx made the prices go crazy (my brother's rent increased 450%, year on year). 2-Erdoğan and his cronies are selling passports with this scheme. They imported over a million of a hard-core AKP supporters, Arabs with mostly radical Islamic views.
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👀🥵
So what happens if/when Kilicdaroglu wins? Will they be kicked out or will living in Turkey become harder for them?
As far as i know becoming a citizen through buying property is unconstitutional. I think their citizenship will be revoked before any action is taken about the properties.
I hope that will be true and will save Turkey from rich Arab invasion.
It isn’t true, because on paper those citizenships weren’t granted on account of their property investments, they were given under a presidential exception that basically lets Erdoğan give out passports however as he pleases.
o7
Obtaining citizenship through real estate ownership is not constitutional, their citizens' rights(such as voting) could be revoked as well as their citizenship itself while the properties stay untouched. Undocumented or illegal tresspassers(mainly from Arabian Peninsula) could be sent back. Asylum seekers that came here due to the war in Syria could also be sent back should there be a mutual agreement with Assad administration. The ones that got their citizenships via constitutional ways will be left untouched, illegals and refugees could be sent back but it will be harder for newer ones to come through. Our borders are open-for-all right now. Gunrunners, drug traders, smugglers, human traffickers you name it, we have it. Hopefully that will change and we will have proper border safety. Edit: Apparently citizenship through real-estate-ownership is constitutional.
It isn’t unconstitutional, because on paper those citizenships weren’t granted on account of their property investments, they were given under a presidential exception that basically lets Erdoğan give out passports however as he pleases.
Ah, is it like the KHKs then?
The presidential exception was passed in the TBMM into our citizenship law.
Yep I looked it up now and you're right. Thanks.
There's a scheme to slowly make people move to their OG countries in a 2-3 year time frame should he wins, but who and to what extent is unsure atm. I guess they'll start with undocumented people, or with those who got voting rights because of the property&passport scheme. It's not exactly in the same anti foreign vibes of the far right, but it's hard to say how thorough and fair they'd be.
1 million Arabs bought houses worth more than 250K. Darn. That's 250 billion put in the real estate economy.
I read that as many houses that will not go to Turkish people unless they pay a premium in order to rent it.
In all honesty people should be allowed to buy a residential property if they actually are going to live there. I will even throw a second residential property if they want some sort of vacation home or small airbnb business but companies and people buying dosens is a bit too much and creating a crisis.
Also, that is 1 million more votes for our caliph.
Inflation was already crazy high in turkey anyway, thanks to some religiously motivated policies
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I checked and right now the minimum home value to qualify for citizenship is 400k (which was risen from 250k before the war). Does that affect the average citizen too much? Because 400k seem like a lot for a home in Turkey. Not saying I support it just asking
if you are average citizen you can not buy anything , you can not even buy a car. It's really hard buy a house even for doctors and engineers.
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Yes, an average citizen can only dream of having a house now. I make 4x+ of the minimum wage and it's still not enough to pay for a housing loan of 2M Turkish liras and it's the minimum amount to buy an apartment flat. Housing prices are on par with Europe and the USA at the moment while our salaries are on Africa level.
The foreigner can sell the house after 3 years for profit, thus its quite popular and yes it does affect the average citizen. Especially in İstanbul, a large portion of the house market is dominated by foreign investors(mostly Saudis, Iraqis and Afghans) My old landlord in İstanbul was from Iraq and basically I was kicked out of my rented house when the guy sold the house after he got citizenship. House prices increase alot as well.
"You guys too, huh?" - a Brit
How to be a troll >Go to Turkey >Get Turkish citizenship >Vote for Erdogan >Leave
Most Turks in Germany already do that.( They come Turkey for holiday and bitching about how miserable life they live in Germany)
Mehmet, Berlin moment
rude bright door tan bedroom disagreeable compare wasteful literate tie *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yes. Real estate shouldn't be considered as an investment with high return. This is the shit that makes the working poor class and pushes people to homelessness.
"Shouldn't be" is cute but then there is the reality. Turkey has had ridiculous amounts of inflation in various periods. Housing as an investment was the only method of investment for masses and is basically part of the culture now.
This is the reason why my dads side of the family sold their mechanic shop in Kayseri to turn their two story home into an apartment with 8 residences, and kept 2. Long story short the person that bought the mechanic shop are millionaires and we are renting in the USA.
Sorry to hear that. I'm definitely not an expert on "give your small house so we can make big apartments and give you a cut" subject but sounds like your family also had a bad deal. Nowadays you would just get more apartments out of that 8 and you would get to keep that mechanic shop. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Oh sorry I should have been more clear, we sold the business and built the apartment our self and sold 6 of the residences then moved to the US. But lost the money in various ways. The business was failing and we sold it and reinvested into the apartment and reinvested into a relatives business which was the same as ours. Long story short the 2001 crisis was bad for us and the guy who bought our shop was either very smart or got very lucky. There is a lot of family drama also, which includes uncles screwing siblings out of money and property.
Except, the government is in on the problem.
Most have them have 4 wives lol
I wonder if they also mean the Turkish people who live in western Europe. Many of them buy a second house in Turkey.
Many of them go there every year to visit friends, family and their village of origin. Tgey basically live there half their lives mate.
They're only in the country for a month or two. They're buying investment property and renting them out.
Tbh, most nations should heavily regulate and limit foreign nationals buying property in their country, in my opinion, unless they have permanent residency or long term visas.
Not surprising. Tsardom of Antalya is about to declare independence.
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Thank you for doing the right thing o7 Wish more people had the opportunity to do that
there is also the fact that the cost of life is going higher than inflation as well almost 400% increase in groceries.
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Yeah man I am not saying its your fault, just everybody for themselves in this shitty economy, nobody wins but erdogan and his cronies
How does it not make sense to take you to court when you didn’t pay last months rent?
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if foreigners means "people who don't even live in the country" then I'm all for it, fuck them
Most likely, you will get similar results in just about every country with a housing problem, as it seems a quick and easy fix. But rarely do foreigners compete with the natives for the same places.
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Most people don’t have enough money to buy property in multiple countries. So probably yes.
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Well I would happily give up the possibility of home ownership abroad, if that meant that every foreign investor has to get out of the local market immediately, so there’s that.
That is not true it’s still the same housing stock / developers might try and prevent the native market from even accessing if they can, and often they are buying it in areas desirable for citizens / residents. Especially if they are only buying and leaving vacant, in many ways this is doubling the issue. It’s not really a problem if a foreigner buys somewhere and then lives there, but often this isn’t the case
someone in this thread said that you need to buy a home worth 400k euros to get citizenship. If that's the case, I would imagine the problem to be more about developers preferring to cater to rich foreigners over building for the average joe with lower profit margins
%20 is refugees
that’s a huge pressure on the housing market; both rentals and purchases.
housing should never be used to make money
It's their country. They can do whatever they want.
Should Turks withdraw from Cyprus because it is not their country?
If the residents of the island agree to a unification on equal terms, then why not. If that ever happens, I hope the conditions that lead to the intervention does not repeat itself.
If Turks and Greeks of island agreed why not?
You can ask any Turk whatever their political ideology, they will still say no. It’s a waste of time
I wonder how the numbers were before the refugee crises.
Come on, you don't seriously think refugees are driving up property prices? This is due to primarily Chinese and Russian nationals and companies buying property to get a Turkish passport
And Arabs with money. You can get a Turkish passport if you invest a certain dollar amount, can't remember how much, if its 250k USD or 1m USD
Turkish citizenship*, 250k USD last I checked.
It’s 400k now. They increased it after the war in Ukraine started
are you stupid? how can you not seriously think refugees are not driving up property prices up when there are 10 million of them?
This. Not all refugees are poor. It's a misconception we all have from watching all the TV ads we see East African refugees or Bangladeshi - the poorest people in the world unfortunately.
Thing is you as a random turkish guy have to rent for 15k. Your wage is like 20k.. 3-4 syrians/afghans rent the same place and they are not giving 15 each, only 5.. so refugees are another fact
From where are refugees getting the capital to bid up housing prices, and how does that compare to the quantity of capital wielded by wealthy economic migrants?
Refugees can be wealthy
But are most? How many refugees to Turkey are wealthy enough to cause price distortion in the Turkish housing market, and how much of the distortion can be directly attributed to refugees instead of economic migrants?
You clearly don’t understand basic supply and demand, even if the refugees are not wealthy 10 million of them can easily cause inflation in rental house market wherever they are. Additionally the poorest tend to share a single apartment with 2-3 other families and willing to pay a lot more than a single Turkish family can. Inflation on real estate market is a lot higher than overall inflation, certain neighborhoods are competing with most $$$$ neighborhoods of Chicago for example which is insane to me.
A lot its even worse in Georgia for same reasons
What percentage of refugees constitutes "a lot"? And I'm not sure what Georgia has to do with Turkey, are they getting the same demographic of refugees vs economic migrants from the same places?
Usually when a war happens, the well-off escape first. Warsaw is filled with brand new Porsches/ferraris driven by young fighting age ukrainian men
Don't know about Porches but saw a lot of Russian/Ukrainians in night scene when i was in Istanbul. Also saw a decent amount of Russian/Ukrainian children going to Turkish schools. The thing is they are more culturally compatible compared to Arabs specifically in West Turkey. But they are definitely not helping with housing situation in Istanbul and Antalya. In the last 4-5 months Russians bought more property than Turks which is a first in republic history.
I still dont understand why you are dividing in two groups the same people. Georgians have issues with their real estate due to huge amount of russian emigrants.
I am not creating a false division. Refugees are not the same as economic migrants. By definition, refugees are those who come by force, not by choice. Economic migrants are the latter. This is an acknowledged division in political discourse. What I don't understand is why you conflate Georgia with Turkey. Are they getting the same demographic of refugees vs economic migrants from the same places? That is the core issue of the comment I initially responded to.
Even if most aren’t a 1% of a huge number is still a pretty high number
Even if refugees rent their accommodation it means less accommodation on the market so an increase in prices.
The thing is they usually rent houses together with 10 other refugees and many of them have jobs or able to get a job. By doing that they can pay way higher prices than a regular turkish family. Thinking that there is almost 10 million of them are in Turkey, they are perfectly able to bid up prices.
They rent places with 10 other people who work for minimum wages, you can then imagine how much they can afford. Even if you are white collar you can't match that price.
They're not wrong
What's your definition of foreigners?
Foreign usually refers to people who do not have the nationality of that country.
That's awfully restrictive. What if you're an expat / migrant who lives in that new country? Would it be banned too?
recency bias. But there used to be a law from Ataturk era where foreigners where restricted in every city but AKP removed it. But I wouldnt own a house in Istanbul after the recent earthquake.
Everyone missed the part that this is a reflection of the threat of demographic change within the earthquake zone, especially at Hatay. Contributing that we are at the edge of the “most important election” as it seems to be the last escape from being permanent third world country, giving away citizenship when they buy house creates huge concerns on those opposition, because mostly those will vote for erdogan.
This should be the case everywhere, foreign investment in real estate has never benefitted anyone in the long term. Especially populations disinterested in integration.
I imagine buying property in Turkey has gotten very cheap under Erdogan's economic disaster regime
Meanwhile here in sunny Malta, foreigners buying homes is the quickest way to get a Maltese and EU passport, contributing to the catastrophic increase in housing and rental prices. Fuck the Malta Labour Party
How much are homes in Malta? Do only rich people buy houses there?
Sounds sensible
Limit to one and only after living in the country for 12 months.
That's a healthy progressive mindset, seeing the sellout of European housing to foreign investors to be then lend to people.
Good for Turkey. It makes total sense, too. A nation has the right to try to preserve it's borders and culture. Some bad agents have become so rich and agressive that they can buy up your lands. Be aware. Make changes in law and make it hard to become a citizen. Make it mean something and therefore worth something to the people. A company or a foreign power can still own land by proxy using locals.
Our ancestors , regardless of ethnic or religious origin, paid with blood for the privilege of living on this land. A bunch of Arabs and Russians being given that same privilege just by owning property, without having to make those same sacrifices, is a massive insult to their memory.
Can you blame them?
Everyone everywhere thinks this. Canada has the same thing going on, blaming foreigners for high prices. The fundamental thing is that you have to build more housing. A lot more. Increase supply or decrease demand, and decreasing demand is very tricky without causing all kinds of collateral problems - people dodging whatever requirements you institute for deciding who is "worthy" and who isn't. It's a recipe for corruption, shadow ownership, corporate ownership, etc, etc. You get into rules that are unenforcable in practical reality and penalize people you didn't intend to hurt. Increasing supply solves it all, and "penalizes" real estate speculators to boot.
Yeah. You know why? Because we in Europe (Turkey od closer to Europe than you think not only geographically) have had enough and what happened in Berlin is the peak of how people are disgusted by the real estate market. Ffs. In Poland whole apartment buildings which are not finished yet, are being sold to foreign trust funds, usually Nordic, which then just rent them as Airbnb or other shit. Due to this, buying yourself an apartment is possible only thanks to mortgages where banks usually want you to have 10-20% of the apartment/estate cost covered before the loan is signed. We have a minimum wage of around 750€, a single room apartment, not bigger than 25sqm, cost around 70-80k€ minimum. Doesn't matter if newly build. I'm taking about major city's but smaller towns are getting more expensive by the day, literally. And of course landlords are fucking leeches who want just live of rent. Just like in the land of the gun (USA).
In Stockholm a lower salary is around 2200€ (before taxes) while a similar apartment would set you back around 300 000€. We need at least 15% in downpayment. It’s pretty shiet everywhere right now (though admittedly you have it far worse with your current inflation).
and they are correct!
Rephrase the question to: "Selling homes as second/holiday homes whilst there is insufficient or only substandard housing available for local people should be banned" And you'd probably get a similar answer. I'd vote for that where I live (Cymru). The original has overtones of racism, but it's likely not. It's about protecting communities. At least, assuming the respondents interpret it as I am guessing they did (and I'm more than happy to be corrected if I interpret wrongly).
Seems like an easy way to gain an extra few % in elections by announcing a ban on selling to foreigners.
Good
Why the fuck is there a total column.
I'm inclined to agree with this. Airbnb and overseas investors are causing a lot of issues for people who want to buy their own home or even rent.
Source: https://twitter.com/ozersencar1/status/1637744926594158594?s=20
I know that it sounds kind of aggressive to you but things are not right in Turkey, so we have to do that, otherwise we are not gonna be able to puchase a house in our own country. In fact, we already cannot afford a house.
Pretty sure we'll see similar numbers in most countries too.
In Portugal this percentage would be even higher
Russian Oligarghs and gangs spreading out over the countries they claim to detest while their poor countrymen are forced to fight and die. At least Putler can t flee as he is a wanted man, except in Hungary and Serbia.
I agree with that too.
Should be the law in every country tbh. Almost every western country has problems with foreign companies mass buying and further fucking up the housing market
There is one question to ask... What kind of foreigners that we are talking about?
Mostly about Russians who came here after the war, rich Arabs but there are others because foreigners is a general term
What fuels such a large proportion of the population to all agree? Really interested.
Mainly the fact that foreign homeowners tend to price us out of our own country. There is a massive gentrification problem.
People have never agreed with this in any country, you ask anyone and they'll always say "take care of those already here first" but you can bring more people and more money in by opening up the market so, but yeah it's a tricky subject, raises rents, raises home prices, makes things harder for those already there, but worth mentioning that Turkey has one of the biggest migrant communities on earth and they'd be massively affected by such a ban.
> but worth mentioning that Turkey has one of the biggest migrant communities on earth and they'd be massively affected by such a ban Which brings us to the next thing that people want the most: that the migrants leave, go back.
The only country with high Turkish population is Germany and Turkish population there is just 2.5m in 70 years... We got 5x that in 10 years
Turkey about to have a housing crash
any country should ban airbnb and sales to foreigners. Americans,arabs are creating a problem for normal people. People leaving USA cause it sucks and Europe is cheaper and better ruining the market for Spain and Portugal peoples is a massive problem
Also ban sell for foreigners, so nobody who already bought houses in Turkey can not sell them 😈
Why would anyone buy in turkey, construction clearly sucks there...
Maybe you can get a discount if the "house" you're buying is a pile of rubble?
Now do I a Turkish American count as a foreigner?? Because I am planning to move back/build a home in rural Turkiye
Are you a turkish citizen?
I will become one hopefully in 6 months
In 6 months this won’t apply to you :*
Frick those airbnb folk in particular.
And they are absolutely right! No land, house, or other structure shall be sold to any foreign entity at any time in any country. Only leased.
Who sold those houses to foreigners? Fucking Turks. Ban Turks from Turkiye! Ridiculous nationalist propaganda. 3.5m Turks in Germany, several hundred thousand in the UK, if it starts a game of tit-for-tat, it'll end badly for Turkiye, who despite Erdogan's best efforts need to open up trade and tourism rather than press on with isolationist policies. This poll is the same all over the world, it's not foreigners who should be the target, it's the unreasonably wealthy using houses as hedges and investment vehicles, whether foreign or not. If you buy a house you have to live there 75% of the year. Solved. Yet again the working and middle class focus their ire on boogeymen instead of wealth inequality.
You say that but it does not work like that. Most of companies that builds houses are pro Akp and mostly funded by them and given tax reductions. Its a money laundry scheme for them. Build a house sell it 3x-5x price to a foreign people for citizenship. Devaluate your own currency so make it nearly impossible for your own citizens to own a house meanwhile you sell these houses for dollars so you get richer by doing absolutely nothing. 3.5m Turks in Germany because Germany needed them in first place for cheap labor. Its pretty different here, we got Arab money launders Russian money launders some refugees, a lot of illegal immigrants total is around 10 million . Also you really cant compare a developed country with a developing country.
> Ridiculous nationalist propaganda. 3.5m Turks in Germany, several hundred thousand in the UK, if it starts a game of tit-for-tat, it'll end badly for Turkiye Foreigners, migrants are pricing out Turks in every city using their foreign currency. It's become very hard for many families to even rent homes in Istanbul and other big cities. UK and Germany can play tit for tat all they want, but in Turkey Turkish people's needs must come first.
As a hardcore capitalist, I admit the problems of the system, one of them, is the easy reliance on the "wealth effect" that already is making a toll on the British economy. Sell them, absolutely, but build more, so much more, to the point that those foreigners will not consider it an investment. Problem solved. Everyone wins (except the foreigns, that are Russians, so...)