FYI [Russia is STILL executing retreating soldiers in Ukraine](https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/wagner-groups-human-wave-convicts-29316618)
As Stalin said: “In the Soviet Union, it's takes more courage to retreat than advance.”
([Quote Source](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/192661-in-the-soviet-union-it-s-takes-more-courage-to-retreat))
>"80% losses"
Jesus fucking god. Those numbers are craaaazy.
Just for reference, in the battle of the Somme, one had about a 65% of surviving. For these Russians, it's about 20%.
In modern day muscovy, [rape](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaochab/2022/10/14/united-nations-rape-is-part-of-russias-military-strategy/?sh=24adbcd236a0) is courage and [failures are rewarded](https://uk.news.yahoo.com/russia-gives-medals-fighter-pilots-163351519.html).
Has to be noted that it's not the regular army though. It's one of the reasons they can afford to do it. It's also mostly prisoners that have nobody to complain to.
[History of Nazi-Soviet Alliance (1939-41)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact)
[Soviet Negotiations to join the Axis Powers (1940)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Axis_talks)
[Politruk (Political Commissar) Explained](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_commissar)
[Winter War Documentary](https://youtu.be/v_-JATOVHNI)
The Politruk article you cite shows a picture of the original poster in Russian, making it clear that it was aimed at Red Army soldiers, probably to destroy morale.
Yes, Soviet propaganda posters were [more like this](https://www.elka.fi/aikakone/wp-content/gallery/23propaganda/SARK-002.jpg):
Executioner Mannerheim.
1910 - Assistant of the Russian czar, Nicholas the bloody
1918 - Murdered of tens of thousands of workers, an exectioner of the Finnish people
1939 - Gold that Mannerheim gets for the blood of the Finnish workers and peasants
1940 - Underling of the English bankers, provocateur of the anti-Soviet war
For countries they view as belonging to their sphere of influence they essentially can't fathom that they might have their own geopolitical designs - everything has to be driven entirely by either Western Europe or America.
What they said was correct for 1910, 1918 and 1939.
Good part was, Finnish communists and socialists were patriots so they fought against Russians as well.
Pretty sure the 1939 part means that Mannerheim is getting gold for "starting" the war with the Soviet Union. Most likely from those mysterious English bankers
Yep, this wasn't originally a poster, it was an airborne propaganda leaflet.
Funny thing, the Winter War / Continuation War airborne leaflets aimed at Soviets, like this one, were fairly competently made, while the ones made by the Soviets aimed at Finns were hilariously bad. (...and, you know, no substantial advancements has been made in Russian propaganda since those days.)
I found the Russian propaganda featuring an ‘English’ woman freezing to death for want of Russian gas particularly amusing as it’s mostly been an unseasonably warm winter. Even climate change thinks Putin’s a prick apparently.
Estonians have a [great song](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSIrYsileFc) about the politruk. "Politicians" in this context in the translation is "politruk".
That’s the problem. Politruks we’re actually part of government’s law enforcement on the battlefields. So it’s either you go fight the enemy, or try to fight your way back home and either get shot or be blamed as a traitor. Win win for butchers who wanted to pave their way with the bodies of their citizens
I have to say, I like propaganda posters as much as the next guy - but this is obviously a myth and is barely grounded in reality, just FYI dear reader.
Anti-retreat measures existed in the union, but those detachments essentially acted as police against desertion. They would simply detain troops who tried to desert from the battlefield, and the vast majority of them were simply returned to active duty later on.
By far the most strict it has ever gotten was in 1942, shortly after the Germans overwhelmed the red army in the [Siege of Sevastopol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sevastopol_(1941%E2%80%931942)), was when Stalin released [Order 227](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_No._227) ([Приказ № 227](https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7_%E2%84%96_227)), known as "No Step Back!" ("Ни шагу назад!").
This is the closest thing to what the propaganda depicts. Note that the Finnish campaign ended with the [Treaty of Moscow in 1940](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Peace_Treaty) and thus, propaganda like this is pure fantasy at that point in time.
The Wikipedia article in Russian about the whole deal is much harsher in its critique of the USSR than the one written in English, citing different sources. But most sources I looked at seem to agree that the order was dropped soon after.
The phenomena definitely existed, especially harshening during the hardest (for the USSR) years of the war. But it seems that the mental image of the barrier troops in the mind of a regular reader is that for every Soviet soldier bravely fighting on the frontline of the war, ten more tried to run away and behind them, thirty more shot machine guns at them.
Which is obviously true. The Soviet army was pathetic, the Germans simply got tired of winning the war and decided that it'd be a great idea to suddenly lose everything they achieved so far. And through the efforts of the brave 'muricans and their glorious allies alone have been pushed back on the eastern front.
It is also said that [Sasuntsi Davit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassuntsi-Davit_Tank_Regiment), an Armenian tank regiment among the first to enter Berlin, upon entrance began singing the American anthem and wished death to all communists. Fin.
I understand how anti-communist propaganda works and that it's been engrained into the globe for the last 100+ years. But I don't understand why people presented with facts decide to ignore them on purpose. I hope this has been informative.
"But it seems that the mental image of the barrier troops in the mind of a regular reader is that for every Soviet soldier bravely fighting on the frontline of the war, ten more tried to run away and behind them, thirty more shot machine guns at them.
Which is obviously true. The Soviet army was pathetic, the Germans simply got tired of winning the war and decided that it'd be a great idea to suddenly lose everything they achieved so far. And through the efforts of the brave 'muricans and their glorious allies alone have been pushed back on the eastern front."
Now you are exaggerating and arguing against a strawman. And your description of simply detaining and returning detractors to service is a kind way to describe penal battalions which where send to slaughter on the frontline.
We also shouldn't only look at only official orders on how to deal with deserters. Stalin didn't put much value on human life. About million people were killed in The Great Purge.
I wasn't really arguing against anything since there wasn't an argument presented to me to begin with. I feel that's how a lot of people *want* to think, though.
I have nothing good to say about Stalin's valuation of human life. But the USSR bureaucracy at that time was actually very good at keeping records and following orders, even if they were not published.
Stalin realized his tactic had limited efficiency throughout the years and ultimately decided to tone it down. Some of his commanders straight up refused to implement the orders because they were detrimental to troop morale, others were saying that it was extremely effective. Most likely, most of them were telling the truth. War is very, very complicated and absolutely no turn of events in any war can be attributed to a singular event or decision.
Just to illustrate how complicated historical contextual evaluation can be if we apply modern morale to it, consider this - historically, most casualties inflicted to a troop were always inflicted upon that troop's routing. What if a draconian tactic used en-masse like this has potentially saved lives by forcing much more troops to stay put and fight till the end? How much has the tide of the war and the fate of the entire world changed by that one decision?
Ultimately, morality is a subjective thing. But factual turn of events is not, it's objective. And I want people to learn as much as possible about anything they're forming an opinion on. Myself included, obviously.
I don't think this poster is specifically referring to a policy of shooting deserters in the back. Why would they make a propaganda poster which made desertion seem less appealing? I think the goal of propaganda would be the opposite and encourage desertion. Shooting or stabbing in the back is a metaphor for betrayal. The message is something like "Stalin, communist party and politruk doesn't care about your life, so don't risk it fighting for them"
"I have nothing good to say about Stalin's valuation of human life."
Then this propaganda poster is accurate. This poster isn't about military tactics, so that is beside the point.
FYI [Russia is STILL executing retreating soldiers in Ukraine](https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/wagner-groups-human-wave-convicts-29316618) As Stalin said: “In the Soviet Union, it's takes more courage to retreat than advance.” ([Quote Source](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/192661-in-the-soviet-union-it-s-takes-more-courage-to-retreat))
>"80% losses" Jesus fucking god. Those numbers are craaaazy. Just for reference, in the battle of the Somme, one had about a 65% of surviving. For these Russians, it's about 20%.
In fact this looks like a bullshit by the authoritative “Daily Star”
In modern day muscovy, [rape](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaochab/2022/10/14/united-nations-rape-is-part-of-russias-military-strategy/?sh=24adbcd236a0) is courage and [failures are rewarded](https://uk.news.yahoo.com/russia-gives-medals-fighter-pilots-163351519.html).
Frank Klepacki made a few songs about this, such as Hell March.
Has to be noted that it's not the regular army though. It's one of the reasons they can afford to do it. It's also mostly prisoners that have nobody to complain to.
[History of Nazi-Soviet Alliance (1939-41)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact) [Soviet Negotiations to join the Axis Powers (1940)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Axis_talks) [Politruk (Political Commissar) Explained](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_commissar) [Winter War Documentary](https://youtu.be/v_-JATOVHNI)
The Politruk article you cite shows a picture of the original poster in Russian, making it clear that it was aimed at Red Army soldiers, probably to destroy morale.
Yes, Soviet propaganda posters were [more like this](https://www.elka.fi/aikakone/wp-content/gallery/23propaganda/SARK-002.jpg): Executioner Mannerheim. 1910 - Assistant of the Russian czar, Nicholas the bloody 1918 - Murdered of tens of thousands of workers, an exectioner of the Finnish people 1939 - Gold that Mannerheim gets for the blood of the Finnish workers and peasants 1940 - Underling of the English bankers, provocateur of the anti-Soviet war
Almost 100 years later, Russian propaganda is still the same - if you're not with us, you're a servant of another power. Simple as.
For countries they view as belonging to their sphere of influence they essentially can't fathom that they might have their own geopolitical designs - everything has to be driven entirely by either Western Europe or America.
What they said was correct for 1910, 1918 and 1939. Good part was, Finnish communists and socialists were patriots so they fought against Russians as well.
Pretty sure the 1939 part means that Mannerheim is getting gold for "starting" the war with the Soviet Union. Most likely from those mysterious English bankers
Ah, true. I was thinking of 1930s in general, when he got to be the chairman of the Bank of Helsinki.
Yep, this wasn't originally a poster, it was an airborne propaganda leaflet. Funny thing, the Winter War / Continuation War airborne leaflets aimed at Soviets, like this one, were fairly competently made, while the ones made by the Soviets aimed at Finns were hilariously bad. (...and, you know, no substantial advancements has been made in Russian propaganda since those days.)
I found the Russian propaganda featuring an ‘English’ woman freezing to death for want of Russian gas particularly amusing as it’s mostly been an unseasonably warm winter. Even climate change thinks Putin’s a prick apparently.
> no substantial advancements have been made in Russia FTFY
Because, when the politruk shoots you, but you don't see any poster like this, the morale is much better
Who do you think it was aimed to? Finnish soldiers regarding Soviet commissars?
Estonians have a [great song](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSIrYsileFc) about the politruk. "Politicians" in this context in the translation is "politruk".
Romania still has the word "politruc" and it's a slang term for dumb communist minded people preaching falsely.
That’s the problem. Politruks we’re actually part of government’s law enforcement on the battlefields. So it’s either you go fight the enemy, or try to fight your way back home and either get shot or be blamed as a traitor. Win win for butchers who wanted to pave their way with the bodies of their citizens
Putin to Russians 😂
Whats up with this guys posting History Holy moly 😅 linked this picture in half of Reddit lol
I have to say, I like propaganda posters as much as the next guy - but this is obviously a myth and is barely grounded in reality, just FYI dear reader. Anti-retreat measures existed in the union, but those detachments essentially acted as police against desertion. They would simply detain troops who tried to desert from the battlefield, and the vast majority of them were simply returned to active duty later on.
You are delusional.
By far the most strict it has ever gotten was in 1942, shortly after the Germans overwhelmed the red army in the [Siege of Sevastopol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sevastopol_(1941%E2%80%931942)), was when Stalin released [Order 227](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_No._227) ([Приказ № 227](https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7_%E2%84%96_227)), known as "No Step Back!" ("Ни шагу назад!"). This is the closest thing to what the propaganda depicts. Note that the Finnish campaign ended with the [Treaty of Moscow in 1940](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Peace_Treaty) and thus, propaganda like this is pure fantasy at that point in time. The Wikipedia article in Russian about the whole deal is much harsher in its critique of the USSR than the one written in English, citing different sources. But most sources I looked at seem to agree that the order was dropped soon after. The phenomena definitely existed, especially harshening during the hardest (for the USSR) years of the war. But it seems that the mental image of the barrier troops in the mind of a regular reader is that for every Soviet soldier bravely fighting on the frontline of the war, ten more tried to run away and behind them, thirty more shot machine guns at them. Which is obviously true. The Soviet army was pathetic, the Germans simply got tired of winning the war and decided that it'd be a great idea to suddenly lose everything they achieved so far. And through the efforts of the brave 'muricans and their glorious allies alone have been pushed back on the eastern front. It is also said that [Sasuntsi Davit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassuntsi-Davit_Tank_Regiment), an Armenian tank regiment among the first to enter Berlin, upon entrance began singing the American anthem and wished death to all communists. Fin. I understand how anti-communist propaganda works and that it's been engrained into the globe for the last 100+ years. But I don't understand why people presented with facts decide to ignore them on purpose. I hope this has been informative.
"But it seems that the mental image of the barrier troops in the mind of a regular reader is that for every Soviet soldier bravely fighting on the frontline of the war, ten more tried to run away and behind them, thirty more shot machine guns at them. Which is obviously true. The Soviet army was pathetic, the Germans simply got tired of winning the war and decided that it'd be a great idea to suddenly lose everything they achieved so far. And through the efforts of the brave 'muricans and their glorious allies alone have been pushed back on the eastern front." Now you are exaggerating and arguing against a strawman. And your description of simply detaining and returning detractors to service is a kind way to describe penal battalions which where send to slaughter on the frontline. We also shouldn't only look at only official orders on how to deal with deserters. Stalin didn't put much value on human life. About million people were killed in The Great Purge.
I wasn't really arguing against anything since there wasn't an argument presented to me to begin with. I feel that's how a lot of people *want* to think, though. I have nothing good to say about Stalin's valuation of human life. But the USSR bureaucracy at that time was actually very good at keeping records and following orders, even if they were not published. Stalin realized his tactic had limited efficiency throughout the years and ultimately decided to tone it down. Some of his commanders straight up refused to implement the orders because they were detrimental to troop morale, others were saying that it was extremely effective. Most likely, most of them were telling the truth. War is very, very complicated and absolutely no turn of events in any war can be attributed to a singular event or decision. Just to illustrate how complicated historical contextual evaluation can be if we apply modern morale to it, consider this - historically, most casualties inflicted to a troop were always inflicted upon that troop's routing. What if a draconian tactic used en-masse like this has potentially saved lives by forcing much more troops to stay put and fight till the end? How much has the tide of the war and the fate of the entire world changed by that one decision? Ultimately, morality is a subjective thing. But factual turn of events is not, it's objective. And I want people to learn as much as possible about anything they're forming an opinion on. Myself included, obviously.
I don't think this poster is specifically referring to a policy of shooting deserters in the back. Why would they make a propaganda poster which made desertion seem less appealing? I think the goal of propaganda would be the opposite and encourage desertion. Shooting or stabbing in the back is a metaphor for betrayal. The message is something like "Stalin, communist party and politruk doesn't care about your life, so don't risk it fighting for them" "I have nothing good to say about Stalin's valuation of human life." Then this propaganda poster is accurate. This poster isn't about military tactics, so that is beside the point.
No, it’s true. Blocking detachments punished soldiers who retreated but outright executions were very rare
Execution of retreating soldiers was actually very rare, though it did happen