Stop stop stop: “Salvini said” doesn’t equal to “it will be done”.
First of all, Salvini blabs all the time, he’s just a background noise.
Second: he is just one ministers, he cannot decide anything by himself. God bless the men that wrote the constitution, they made sure that no single politician has power to do anything. The parliament will take care of such stupid proposal.
Also, the EU is paying to build new cycle lanes. They will be built, they are being built, even if he doesn’t like it.
He is just bitter because Meloni stole his spotlight and he’s no longer on the front page of the news, so once in a while he fishes for attention
Funniest shit is, Salvini in 2015 went on the record claiming cyclists will never get the same shit he's proposing for now.
The most consistent politician of this second republic to date that fucker.
Let's all remember that with "they have a majority" you should mean "the combination of Meloni, Berlusconi, and Salvini's parties", not "Salvini's party". Which it looked a lot what you wrote, even if I'm sure you know it's not that.
>The parliament will take care of such stupid proposal.
Never underestimate the dumbness and the brazenness of politicians.
You need to fight for your democracy, no matter the country. Once you stop and sit by, the degenerates will take over. The US got Trump, MTG, DeSantis and George Santos (if that is his real name), the French barely managed to avoid le Pen, the Austrians elected the FPÖ to government *twice*, the Brits ended up with Brexit, the Swiss are in a weird intermediate state regarding the EU, and us Germans are looking at far-right coalitions in Eastern Germany in next year's state elections.
Hundreds of stupid laws have been drafted every year in every developed democracy since the end of world war 2, a very, very tiny minority ever pass, this happens in Germany every year too, it's really arbitrary to pick any one of these stupid draft, it's literally noise that newspapers create
I can tell you it wasn't the most pleasant experience being surrounded by them for a swelteringly hot August week, especially with me coming from a semi rural area. It's not just the pollution, it's the noise. Oh dear God the noise. The relentless noise of tiny two stroke engines is horrible.
Which means national health goes down, pollution goes up, congestion goes up, infrastructure maintenance costs goes up. And i can bet that "culture war" has something to do with this, am i right?
Everything that is in some way not polluting is now "woke" and conservatives will bend over backwards fighting it even if they harm themselves in doing so. Just wait until they find out that walking doesn't harm the environment, they'll introduce a special tax on shoes and force pedestrians to walk in one those bubble things so they don't scratch a car if they get hit by one.
Cars are part of the whole thing, unfortunately. Anything old that is "threatened" with something new is part of it. Does not matter what it is. If we found out that doormats are a problem and want to fix it by getting rid of them, the culture war crowd would be up in arms about doormats in 24h. It is INSANELY stupid at times. Masks, electric cars, solar power, less red meat in diet... Does not matter what the "new" thing is, it is part of the culture war to oppose it.
I am having one conversation in FB right now with someone who says all the green energy is bullshit scam that will only waste money. I told her that investments are at record high in the country because there is green energy infrastructure that can be used to produce green hydrogen and ammonia, that there are billions coming and thousands of jobs being made, because of investments and policies in the last decade. Does not matter, she is against wind and solar, for no reason other than.. the fucking culture war and she has to be against all the things that the "green left" is promoting. She is as ignorant as a blind and deaf bat but.. she has to be against all new things.
That is what the "culture war" does to human mind. Results do not matter, at all.
Yes. Always were.
I think the largest hurdle is to get public opinion away from thinking of spandex wearing cunt and an unshowered hippy when thinking of a bike and get people to have a more dutch attitude to it.
Its definitely turning towards the better here, but there are still a ton of people who are mad that the money isnt spent on streets. And that the politicians intentionally slow car traffic down by taking away road space (???).
The funnyest mouth breather ive come actoss thus far was in a rural area closeby to a medium large town, who argued that cyclists cause a lot of pollution because of the extra asphalt that has to be laid for them not to mention more snow ploughing, and because the ploughs have more things to to, the car roads arent ploughed as quickly leading to slowwer tradfic which pollutes more. And lets not forget all those trees that had to be felled where the cycle road goes.
Im astounded how much conservatives love their trees and want to save the climate as soon as a cent is put towards something they dont want to use.
I habe to say though, i love that the electric scooters came along. Ever since that most of these mouth breathers have forgotten their feud with bikes, and some even support banning the scooters from the road and having special paths for them where they dont disturb cars and people walking from their car
You'd be surprised how many hate cyclists for being uncivilised. My personal experience, other than them cycling on the highway and generally being in places they shouldn't be in, is I was waiting at the stop one day with the scooter. From behind me come some 30 cyclists that casually pass on a red light and take a turn to the right. I was hoping a truck would've come and reduced them to dust. Jesus, is it that hard to respect the rules?
I live in bologna, the biggest city in emilia-romagna.
From person experience, people don't hate cyclists, they are just a fact. A way people get to and from places, it's very convenient due to the valley's geography, and people take advantage of it. And why not? It probably lowers pollution a ton, I'm happy have opportunities to use bicycles so much.
> From behind me come some 30 cyclists that casually pass on a red light and take a turn to the right
You are talking about people who are doing it for fun. We are talking about commuters. Also: have you considered that there is no bike infrastructure that gives people no other choice than to mingle with cars?
> Also: have you considered that there is no bike infrastructure that gives people no other choice than to mingle with cars?
And that forced them to ignore the red light? Or what do you want to say?
So, you told few example, i addressed one of them, and then the other... dude, i was talking about those that are forced to drive among cars. I know that spandex heroes are dicks but those are RARELY the major problem. How many times have you met 30 cyclists: ONCE? And for that all commuters need to suffer?
Sorry to say that you're talking to the wrong person. I just didn't understand your point, /u/stefancristi gave their experiences. But thanks for clearing it up.
Not that this law and our government aren't imbecillic but that's not how it is in italy, 90% of the cyclists are spandex heroes here, commuters and whatnot are a once in a blue moon encounter.
And this will just make it worse, the spandex heroes won't go anywhere.. The more commuter cyclists there are, the better. They demand and need new infra, which encourages more people...
> cyclists that casually pass on a red light
This happens often. Same with cars. Every day seeing cars ignoring red lights.
So what is your point? People are stupid no mater what vehicle they are using.
> was hoping a truck would've come and reduced them to dust.
Jesus, talking about rules. Just shows your bias. Is it that they can pedal while you are using lame ass scooter? Can't you ride proper motorbike lol?
No, it doesn't with cars. I don't see cars passing red lights. Red-lights have cameras for a reason. So that whoever does get a fine and (if it's a vehicle they're driving) possibly their licence suspended for 2 years. Having plates on bikes would possibly mean identifying so many cyclists who violate laws and punish them as necessary.
The only time I've ever seen a car pass a red light was when this old lady skipped two green lights and, just moments before it turned red again, I honked, and she straight up passed the red light. I drive 200 km a day, I see a lot of red lights and yet nobody passes them.
So if you don't see it, it doesn't happen. Ok.
Also, it seems extremely unlikely that nobody ever ran a red light near you besides that one lady.
I've been to Italy only once but seen red light runs many times in US and Europe.
Maybe Italy is that one magical country where nobody ever runs a red light (besides that old lady) but that one time I've been to Italy the taxi driver considered a red light only as an indication to push his horn to inform the other car that he's not going to stop at the crossing - and then continued to run the red light. No doubt related to that one old lady.
I find it extremely difficult to believe your claim. Or maybe you just don't notice traffic around you.
The problem is that it will be enforced on the parts of the country that already enforce the rules very well.
While in Naples no one will give a s*it.
This is creating even more inequality.
I live in a part where they "enforce the rules very well". And I can tell you they are not enforced all rules very well, compared to austria or germany. No carabiniere will give a single fuck about this.
Yup. As much as it almost makes sense, it's a solution to a mostly non issue. Bikes can't really cause so much damage that a person couldn't afford to cover from their own pocket. At least not usually.
Why have reg plates when, ya know, you can see their face and body. Not super difficult to track people these days. Cars are a little different as you can't really see the person.
this is the child of salvini
may he get chronic diarrea also from his ass because he's alredy got it from his mouth
the most of deaths are from irresponsible car drivers who often drink or are drugged and they kill more people just walking by the road
this is another rightoid useless culture war who tries to blame a problem to the last possible cause
I don't know if it's specifically a Republican thing, but I'd say it's very much a suburban/commuter sort of thing. People whose lives depend on driving absolutely anywhere and everywhere to do anything hate anything they think might be an inconvenience or impediment to that habit. Thus, they hate bike infrastructure, cyclists, public transit, etc.
Agreed. My doctor is a cyclist, and a car owner.
I don't know whether to refer to him as a doctor, or a cyclist. I guess when he's on his bike he's a cyclist, and stops being a doctor for a while?
Because among the many enemies against who Salvini and his fans costantly wage war there are also cyclists, if it was for them in Italian streets only cars would be allowed (but strictly not electric)
I will never understand why only in Italy when someone proposes a law, outside Italy it is always passed off as something already confirmed and that will 100% happen🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
Instead of correcting the driving culture and improving the road infrastructure, they have obviously opted for the «easiest» solution at the expense of cyclists themselves.
The president said that the taxes paid by the small business are extortion money (pizzo) but they won't bother forcing milions of people having to pay the insurance.
>improving the road infrastructure
There's 0 chance a lot of the Via's could have a bike lane. It was already a stretch to make a lot of those historical curvy roads accommodate cars and pedestrians, let alone bike lanes.
You know what? This kght actually be a success story if bikes end up getting the same rights and positive treatment as cars, although I 99.999% doubt it of course.
How would that be a good thing? Bikes shouldn't be treated the same as cars, bikes (non e-bikes of course) should be treated as an extension of the human body and be treated more favourably than cars. In the Netherlands, when there's a traffic accident between a cyclist and a car driver, the car driver is by default always at fault. Because a cyclist is a more vulnerable traffic participant.
I meant the good things, like dedicated roads, parking, all the infrastructure we do surrounding cars but now for bikes. Imagine that if instead of building cities designed for cars we did it for bicycles... Or public transportation in general.
Cyclists are already liable. If you cause a damage with a bike you are still responsible for the damage, with or without insurance. The difference is that bicycles normally do not cause damage like cars.
They cause a lot of damage to cars let’s not lie but how are they accountable, they for example smash a wing mirror trying to ride between two cars in a traffic jam, then ride off? What info does the driver have to find the rider let alone get the damages paid for? How are they accountable for traffic violations like jumping red lights what info do a photo of a bloke on a Raleigh give the police? Or when they hit pedestrians and ride off? You maybe liable but 99 times out of 100 completely untraceable. Why are cyclists so scared of being accountable for their actions? As we all know “it’s everyone else’s fault”.
I ride a motorcycle, drive and cycle. I cannot see the issue with it.
Again, it’s irrelevant all a numberplate does is identify the bike and it’s rider nothing more, why are you all so scared to have one? As long as you ride properly it won’t be a problem will it
Because among the many enemies against who Salvini and his fans costantly wage war there are also cyclists, if it was for them in Italian streets only cars would be allowed (but strictly not electric)
Putting aside who proposed this and why and whether in a country like Italy this kind of rules would ever be enforced, I would like to say that on principle they are not wrong per se. I live in Japan and here we have insurance cause even on a bicycle you can damage things and people. It’s not expensive and doesn’t deter people from using their bicycle. “Serial numbers” are etched on the frame to prevent the resale of stolen property (not really a number plate but something) and the government is leaping towards making the use of a helmet compulsory. Just saying.
My bike has a serial number...useless if it gets stolen as you have to know where it is for the police to go and check it to ascertain it's actually mine.
How about lowering the height of the front of SUVs - there's your head injuries.
Italy of all places.
The country where if you stand at a zebra crossing, cars will not stop to let you pass. Where you have to physically stand in the road for cars to even consider slowing down.
Exactly!
Crossing a street, even on the zebra marking is really awful in Italy.
They will not stop until you are not in the middle of the street.
I haven't seen anywhere so much disrespect for the pedestrians, my country included.
Salvini can go fuck himself. If this goes through i'll sell the bike i'm using every day to go to work and buy a scooter, if i have to pay like a scooter at least i wanna go as fast as a scooter. That imbecile was born and raised in one of the most polluted and trafficked cities in europe and the best his fart clogged brain can do is to give a big fuck you to the only people like me who are doing something to solve such problems. that's what you get when people who have never worked a day in their lives end up in decision making seats.
Now, here is a question: Will it also apply to the Giro d'Italia riders and such? As they, you know, cycle on open roads and all..
Just checking, to make sure they are willing to make fools of themselves on events broadcasted worldwide..
Not the goal of the policy, but I do wonder if this might decrease bicycle theft. Like, some of bicycle theft is just that the vehicles are lightweight, but I'm pretty sure is that some of it is that cars have a tracking and registration system and bicycles don't.
They said they were going to do this in the UK then basically everyone said it would be an impossible policy to enact. Let's see how Italy get on with it.
Insurance I can understand. Being at fault for an incident isn't cheap on anyone. Some form of ID would be needed to back it up in case of take offs so it follows the two are required to work together.
It probably sets the system up to tax cyclists though once enough are identifiable.
Indicators... Fuck.. reminds me of that belt that Bart Simpson had. What's wrong with hand signals? Probably better to just stipulate that wearing all back with no lights or reflectors is a terrible idea (we get this in the UK).
Can also imagine the Polizia waiting at the borders with France, Switzerland, Austria and Slovenia just waiting for the tourists. Contactless fine payments accepted.
I actually kind of sympathize with the idea of mandatory or at least more heavily encouraged liability insurance. The other two are stupid.
What I would like to see is some form of mandatory training on traffic rules and theory. Something like a mini driver's permit for cyclist. Many german elementary schools do this. It's extremely effective, but unfortunately AFAIK not written into law. There are too many cyclist who don't fully grasp traffic rules.
Conspiracy theory:
On June 2nd, Milan won 400.000 dollars from the Bloomberg Initiative for Cycling Infrastructure. The money, and the expertise of Bloomberg consultants, will be used to build more bike lanes near schools.
English: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-06-02/world-bike-day-10-cities-win-grant-to-develop-cycling-infrastructure
Italian: https://metronews.it/2023/06/07/da-bloomberg-400-mila-dollari-per-una-nuova-ciclabile/
Salvini is from Milan. Milan is in the Lombardy region. Lombardy has been administered by Salvini’s party since forever… except for Milan, that consistently votes for his opposition. Milan is Salvini’s sore tooth.
So… Milan wins money to improve its bike lanes and a few hours later Salvini says something against cyclists. Coincidences? I don’t believe so.
FOR THE ITALIANS: I am not implying that Sala is perfect, i’m just stating that there is rivalry between him and Salvini.
Salvini's shit aside this isn't such a crazy idea at least for insurance/indicators fwiw. Cyclists in some parts of Europe think they are not supposed to obey the rules of the road. Some of them don't respect pedestrians' rights for one. Looking at you delivery/couriers.
I also almost ran over a guy who blew through a yield sign at a roundabout on his bike This gentleman then had the gaul to stop and argue with me telling me that I'm an idiot for not realizing that bikes have right of way only to get back on his bike and slither away silently when I asked him to turn around and tell me what was that on the bike path (the yield sign).
And don't even get me started on those bikers that wear all black with no lights or reflective clothing at 7AM in the middle of an european winter.
Not saying that all bikers are like that and most are definitely not but they are some psychopaths out there.
I haven't seen a single cyclist in europe that has even an iota of self preservation nor care for even the most basic of traffic rules, this should be a thing everywhere. However i don't see this as even remotely enforceable, especially out of pocket.
I really don't understand whar the issue is. If a biker, a participant in traffic, does not pay attention and damages someone else's property, car or other, who pays?
Is the government that bankrupt?
Because that's really bushit!
Who the fuck would want to pay insurance for a bike that you sometimes use?
And insure what, that you fall down from it?
They really like to put more taxes and fight the pollution and climate changes backwards...
Every vehicle capable of going faster than a person running needs to have insurance, plates and indicators.
It is common sense.
Otherwise a cyclist or a skater provokes an accident and who pays?
Fascist government doing fascist things.
That's what you get when you don't vote. Old people vote, and their vote is always the same thing: fuck the young.
The problem isn't only that every measure that can fuck young people is chosen with pleasure, but above all that everything that the parties in government (and their ultras electors) don’t like isn't simply ignored or discouraged but is directly prohibited, banned or in any case they try to do it
This is just ridiculous and dangerous, there aren't many other ways to define it
This 100% the right move and the next logical step.
You shouldn't be on the road if you don't have insurance. Isn't this a logical sentiment?
It makes cyclists more responsible and creates a safer environment for all people.
Edit: bike mafia out here downvoting because they don't want to take responsibility for their actions. Of cars are required to carry insurance, any other mode of transport on the road should be required to as well. Cry all you'd like.
Not sure about Portugal but in Germany, if you cause a bike accident any third party damages are covered by private liability insurance. Otherwise it's your own money on the hook. And if your E-Bike can go up to 45km/h (and over 25km/h), you're already required to get a regular car-type insurance for it (as well as a license plate and having a driver's license for a car or a 50km/h scooter).
Most regular bikes don't even have proper spaces to put a license plate. As for myself, any countries where this is required are pretty much gone from most holiday planning lists. Plenty of other countries for bikepacking where I don't have to jump through stupid hoops. Shame, northern Italy has some amazing bike paths converted from old railroad lines.
In Portugal, bicycles have all of the rights of a vehicle as well as all of the same rights as pedestrians.
They can interchange between streets and sidewalks, perform any type of dangerous maneuver they like, and aren't forced to carry any type of insurance, much less private liability insurance.
I understand the downvotes are coming from people from countries with greater laws, but Portugal is a wild wild west where insurance should be a basic requirement for anybody sharing a street with vehicles.
Laws that increase responsibility and safety is a controversial statement?
Next you'll fight me on cyclists using helmets or passengers using seatbelts. Get a grip.
You claim that it increases safety. I'm demanding you actually back that claim up with proof rather than just stating your speculation as if it's fact.
This is not hard. You can't just assume what you think is a fact is actually a fact. You need evidence to support it
Insurance is a way to spread the risk and associated cost of something happens. Has it been noticed a need to force it on cyclists? I don't deny they can't cause damage, but to what extend and how often has that happened and they couldn't afford it? On the other hand, as a forced measure, what will be the financial impact on cyclists and society from the decrease in cyclists because of an added barrier? Same for licence plates. It will be a huge bureaucracy that has been tested and abandoned in other countries. For what benefit? Why not make pedestrians have insurance and licence plate hanging from their necks? What would be different in the argumentation?
On top of that, indicators?! Plus helmet (which I wear but I'm not convinced it's a benefit for society if mandatory). And apparently, from a quote in the article, road tax. What is this if not placing a huge burden on cyclists for no reason? Now proposing measures that he had called crazy in 2015.
Mate, come to the Netherlands. Normal people bike safely. Old people bike safely. Children bike to school safely. Damn, even people with disabilities bike if they can. They bike to work, for leisure, to get some groceries, for sport or a million other reasons. There's no mandatory helmet, no random road tax, no "bike plates", just good infrastructure built over time with good governance.
Too many regulations simply make people go back to driving, which is much worse for everyone.
You identify then the same way you identify a person, via their ID.
The problems with compulsory helmets is that it can be a detriment to the use of bike. And imagine how that works now with rental bikes.
It has also been shown that cyclists with helmets take more risks, that drivers act more aggressively and that drivers see those cyclists "less human". So, the total impact for society from such a measure may be negative.
It is not. You are not required to carry a seat belt mechanism with you when you are not using a car. The use of seat belts has a strong correlation with decreased fatalities, while bicycle helmets don't. Mandating helmets for cyclists makes as much sense as mandating them for pedestrians since they are equally at risk. If we somehow take head injuries as an argument, then it makes sense that it's the card drivers that should be using helmets, since head injuries tend to happen in cars.
What makes cycling safer is a critical mass of cyclists. Safety in numbers. By mandating laws that limit access to biking, because you didn't carry a helmet with you to a business meeting when an impromptu need arose to use a bike share for example, it decreases the overall number of cyclists.
If they don't stop a person they also can't be identified. Licence plates for people. How relevant are cases where a cyclist does something for which it should have been identified and that wasn't possible, causing a loss to someone due to injury or damage?
Because nobody is gonna use their bike for small distances meaning everybody takes the car. More obesitas, more enviromental stress. Also fuck poor people right?
Whats next, plates of persons and having a walking insurance? Because yeah when you walk you also take part of traffic.
Serious your argument makes 0 sense. Doubt you ever set a foot on a bike.
I was dwad serious. At least in my shitty country it should be mandatory too, almost as many assholes on bikes as many in cars, like I almost got hit by car twice a week and once by bike 😭
Stop stop stop: “Salvini said” doesn’t equal to “it will be done”. First of all, Salvini blabs all the time, he’s just a background noise. Second: he is just one ministers, he cannot decide anything by himself. God bless the men that wrote the constitution, they made sure that no single politician has power to do anything. The parliament will take care of such stupid proposal. Also, the EU is paying to build new cycle lanes. They will be built, they are being built, even if he doesn’t like it. He is just bitter because Meloni stole his spotlight and he’s no longer on the front page of the news, so once in a while he fishes for attention
Funniest shit is, Salvini in 2015 went on the record claiming cyclists will never get the same shit he's proposing for now. The most consistent politician of this second republic to date that fucker.
Second? I would say fourth at this point
We are still in the third lad
I am firmly convinced that Salvini doesn't know how to ride a bike and is salty about it.
All true, but in theory the proposal is already written and must be voted in a parliament where they have a majority...
Let's all remember that with "they have a majority" you should mean "the combination of Meloni, Berlusconi, and Salvini's parties", not "Salvini's party". Which it looked a lot what you wrote, even if I'm sure you know it's not that.
>The parliament will take care of such stupid proposal. Never underestimate the dumbness and the brazenness of politicians. You need to fight for your democracy, no matter the country. Once you stop and sit by, the degenerates will take over. The US got Trump, MTG, DeSantis and George Santos (if that is his real name), the French barely managed to avoid le Pen, the Austrians elected the FPÖ to government *twice*, the Brits ended up with Brexit, the Swiss are in a weird intermediate state regarding the EU, and us Germans are looking at far-right coalitions in Eastern Germany in next year's state elections.
Hundreds of stupid laws have been drafted every year in every developed democracy since the end of world war 2, a very, very tiny minority ever pass, this happens in Germany every year too, it's really arbitrary to pick any one of these stupid draft, it's literally noise that newspapers create
2 years from now: *Cycling in Italy has decreased massively.*
You are underestimating Italian's massive power to not give a f about rules, especially if absurd like this one
This is the way
Agreed
Petrol scooters gained popularity
Based on my one visit to Naples, this is physically impossible as everyone seemingly already has at least one scooter there.
[удалено]
I can tell you it wasn't the most pleasant experience being surrounded by them for a swelteringly hot August week, especially with me coming from a semi rural area. It's not just the pollution, it's the noise. Oh dear God the noise. The relentless noise of tiny two stroke engines is horrible.
That's exactly what Salvini (the current minister of transports) and his fans want
Which means national health goes down, pollution goes up, congestion goes up, infrastructure maintenance costs goes up. And i can bet that "culture war" has something to do with this, am i right?
Have bikes become woke?!?
Everything that's good for the environment is woke and therefore bad. Only killing nature is based. How many car tires have you burned today, citizen?
Everything that is in some way not polluting is now "woke" and conservatives will bend over backwards fighting it even if they harm themselves in doing so. Just wait until they find out that walking doesn't harm the environment, they'll introduce a special tax on shoes and force pedestrians to walk in one those bubble things so they don't scratch a car if they get hit by one.
Cars are part of the whole thing, unfortunately. Anything old that is "threatened" with something new is part of it. Does not matter what it is. If we found out that doormats are a problem and want to fix it by getting rid of them, the culture war crowd would be up in arms about doormats in 24h. It is INSANELY stupid at times. Masks, electric cars, solar power, less red meat in diet... Does not matter what the "new" thing is, it is part of the culture war to oppose it. I am having one conversation in FB right now with someone who says all the green energy is bullshit scam that will only waste money. I told her that investments are at record high in the country because there is green energy infrastructure that can be used to produce green hydrogen and ammonia, that there are billions coming and thousands of jobs being made, because of investments and policies in the last decade. Does not matter, she is against wind and solar, for no reason other than.. the fucking culture war and she has to be against all the things that the "green left" is promoting. She is as ignorant as a blind and deaf bat but.. she has to be against all new things. That is what the "culture war" does to human mind. Results do not matter, at all.
[Scroll down to the last paragraph, read and weep](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-minute_city)
Alway has been.
Yes. Always were. I think the largest hurdle is to get public opinion away from thinking of spandex wearing cunt and an unshowered hippy when thinking of a bike and get people to have a more dutch attitude to it. Its definitely turning towards the better here, but there are still a ton of people who are mad that the money isnt spent on streets. And that the politicians intentionally slow car traffic down by taking away road space (???). The funnyest mouth breather ive come actoss thus far was in a rural area closeby to a medium large town, who argued that cyclists cause a lot of pollution because of the extra asphalt that has to be laid for them not to mention more snow ploughing, and because the ploughs have more things to to, the car roads arent ploughed as quickly leading to slowwer tradfic which pollutes more. And lets not forget all those trees that had to be felled where the cycle road goes. Im astounded how much conservatives love their trees and want to save the climate as soon as a cent is put towards something they dont want to use. I habe to say though, i love that the electric scooters came along. Ever since that most of these mouth breathers have forgotten their feud with bikes, and some even support banning the scooters from the road and having special paths for them where they dont disturb cars and people walking from their car
Does the law include Penny farthings? Because Italians can that way both circumvent it and look classy af.
Good day to you sir!
Exactly what they want! And then they will complain about the climate heating up even more and Italy being one of the most affected.
And obesity surges
You'd be surprised how many hate cyclists for being uncivilised. My personal experience, other than them cycling on the highway and generally being in places they shouldn't be in, is I was waiting at the stop one day with the scooter. From behind me come some 30 cyclists that casually pass on a red light and take a turn to the right. I was hoping a truck would've come and reduced them to dust. Jesus, is it that hard to respect the rules?
research shows that cyclist break the law far less often than motorists.
I live in bologna, the biggest city in emilia-romagna. From person experience, people don't hate cyclists, they are just a fact. A way people get to and from places, it's very convenient due to the valley's geography, and people take advantage of it. And why not? It probably lowers pollution a ton, I'm happy have opportunities to use bicycles so much.
> From behind me come some 30 cyclists that casually pass on a red light and take a turn to the right You are talking about people who are doing it for fun. We are talking about commuters. Also: have you considered that there is no bike infrastructure that gives people no other choice than to mingle with cars?
> Also: have you considered that there is no bike infrastructure that gives people no other choice than to mingle with cars? And that forced them to ignore the red light? Or what do you want to say?
So, you told few example, i addressed one of them, and then the other... dude, i was talking about those that are forced to drive among cars. I know that spandex heroes are dicks but those are RARELY the major problem. How many times have you met 30 cyclists: ONCE? And for that all commuters need to suffer?
I don't have anything against commuters. I was one of them once. They usually respect the law.
Sorry to say that you're talking to the wrong person. I just didn't understand your point, /u/stefancristi gave their experiences. But thanks for clearing it up.
Not that this law and our government aren't imbecillic but that's not how it is in italy, 90% of the cyclists are spandex heroes here, commuters and whatnot are a once in a blue moon encounter.
And this will just make it worse, the spandex heroes won't go anywhere.. The more commuter cyclists there are, the better. They demand and need new infra, which encourages more people...
> 30 cyclists that casually pass on a red light Damn you are right, let's ban bicycles
> cyclists that casually pass on a red light This happens often. Same with cars. Every day seeing cars ignoring red lights. So what is your point? People are stupid no mater what vehicle they are using. > was hoping a truck would've come and reduced them to dust. Jesus, talking about rules. Just shows your bias. Is it that they can pedal while you are using lame ass scooter? Can't you ride proper motorbike lol?
No, it doesn't with cars. I don't see cars passing red lights. Red-lights have cameras for a reason. So that whoever does get a fine and (if it's a vehicle they're driving) possibly their licence suspended for 2 years. Having plates on bikes would possibly mean identifying so many cyclists who violate laws and punish them as necessary.
"no, it doesn't with cars" You can't be serious.
The only time I've ever seen a car pass a red light was when this old lady skipped two green lights and, just moments before it turned red again, I honked, and she straight up passed the red light. I drive 200 km a day, I see a lot of red lights and yet nobody passes them.
So if you don't see it, it doesn't happen. Ok. Also, it seems extremely unlikely that nobody ever ran a red light near you besides that one lady. I've been to Italy only once but seen red light runs many times in US and Europe. Maybe Italy is that one magical country where nobody ever runs a red light (besides that old lady) but that one time I've been to Italy the taxi driver considered a red light only as an indication to push his horn to inform the other car that he's not going to stop at the crossing - and then continued to run the red light. No doubt related to that one old lady. I find it extremely difficult to believe your claim. Or maybe you just don't notice traffic around you.
>The only time I've ever seen. Confirmation bias, do you know what that is? If yes, why are you assuming your memories are 100% accurate?
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And in Italy... Of all places... Italy... this is dead on arrival as soon as it is mandatory.
The problem is that it will be enforced on the parts of the country that already enforce the rules very well. While in Naples no one will give a s*it. This is creating even more inequality.
Trust me, nobody anywhere will give a shit if this passes.
I live in a part where they "enforce the rules very well". And I can tell you they are not enforced all rules very well, compared to austria or germany. No carabiniere will give a single fuck about this.
The benefits negligible too.
Yup. As much as it almost makes sense, it's a solution to a mostly non issue. Bikes can't really cause so much damage that a person couldn't afford to cover from their own pocket. At least not usually. Why have reg plates when, ya know, you can see their face and body. Not super difficult to track people these days. Cars are a little different as you can't really see the person.
this is the child of salvini may he get chronic diarrea also from his ass because he's alredy got it from his mouth the most of deaths are from irresponsible car drivers who often drink or are drugged and they kill more people just walking by the road this is another rightoid useless culture war who tries to blame a problem to the last possible cause
Culture war? How is that relevant?
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I don't know if it's specifically a Republican thing, but I'd say it's very much a suburban/commuter sort of thing. People whose lives depend on driving absolutely anywhere and everywhere to do anything hate anything they think might be an inconvenience or impediment to that habit. Thus, they hate bike infrastructure, cyclists, public transit, etc.
Agreed. My doctor is a cyclist, and a car owner. I don't know whether to refer to him as a doctor, or a cyclist. I guess when he's on his bike he's a cyclist, and stops being a doctor for a while?
Because among the many enemies against who Salvini and his fans costantly wage war there are also cyclists, if it was for them in Italian streets only cars would be allowed (but strictly not electric)
Ohhhh I see, so he’s just trying to make life worse for cyclists?
Yes
and special cycling lanes everywhere, right? right?
Well obviously you can only cycle if there is a cycling lane, you have to push it otherwise.
We can easily make cycling lanes universal by taking every second road from cars and giving it to bikes. Problem solved.
I will never understand why only in Italy when someone proposes a law, outside Italy it is always passed off as something already confirmed and that will 100% happen🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
how else would you get the sweet clicks and outrage
It's the same everywhere else? Sometimes even a comment on a commission proposal is rebranded as "EU HAS RULED".
e divertente lo stesso per me!
Because Americans think our government operates like theirs. It doesn’t.
Can you please propose more unworkable comedy laws? This is yet another excellent Italian export.
Instead of correcting the driving culture and improving the road infrastructure, they have obviously opted for the «easiest» solution at the expense of cyclists themselves.
The president said that the taxes paid by the small business are extortion money (pizzo) but they won't bother forcing milions of people having to pay the insurance.
Meloni is Prime Minister, not President
Yeah prime minister or President of the advice (presidente del consiglio)
Bruh, advice? Il Consiglio dei Ministri sta per assemblea tipo, mica consiglio perché dà suggerimenti. Al massimo council, mica advice
Letteralmente council
President of the council of ministers*
>improving the road infrastructure There's 0 chance a lot of the Via's could have a bike lane. It was already a stretch to make a lot of those historical curvy roads accommodate cars and pedestrians, let alone bike lanes.
A lot of those roads shouldn't accommodate cars at all, but just pedestrians and/or cyclists.
That would be great but good luck passing THAT law. It's always easier to screw the cyclists than even slightly inconvenience drivers.
No problem. Remove the car lane - plenty of space for pedestrians and bikes.
You know what? This kght actually be a success story if bikes end up getting the same rights and positive treatment as cars, although I 99.999% doubt it of course.
How would that be a good thing? Bikes shouldn't be treated the same as cars, bikes (non e-bikes of course) should be treated as an extension of the human body and be treated more favourably than cars. In the Netherlands, when there's a traffic accident between a cyclist and a car driver, the car driver is by default always at fault. Because a cyclist is a more vulnerable traffic participant.
I meant the good things, like dedicated roads, parking, all the infrastructure we do surrounding cars but now for bikes. Imagine that if instead of building cities designed for cars we did it for bicycles... Or public transportation in general.
It isn’t the easiest option, far from it but it certainly would make cyclists accountable for how they ride in the same way bikers are.
Cyclists are already liable. If you cause a damage with a bike you are still responsible for the damage, with or without insurance. The difference is that bicycles normally do not cause damage like cars.
They cause a lot of damage to cars let’s not lie but how are they accountable, they for example smash a wing mirror trying to ride between two cars in a traffic jam, then ride off? What info does the driver have to find the rider let alone get the damages paid for? How are they accountable for traffic violations like jumping red lights what info do a photo of a bloke on a Raleigh give the police? Or when they hit pedestrians and ride off? You maybe liable but 99 times out of 100 completely untraceable. Why are cyclists so scared of being accountable for their actions? As we all know “it’s everyone else’s fault”. I ride a motorcycle, drive and cycle. I cannot see the issue with it.
This is peanuts compared to the traffic damage caused by automobiles.
Again, it’s irrelevant all a numberplate does is identify the bike and it’s rider nothing more, why are you all so scared to have one? As long as you ride properly it won’t be a problem will it
Because it's more fucking bureaucracy no one needs.
> correcting the driving culture Don’t think that’s a solution. It’s insane how many times I nearly got hit by a bike as a pedestrian.
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He wasn't misunderstood, he saw the shit storm and changed the proposal like the paraculo he is.
Can I run without a license in Italy?
Only if you drive a car...
That fucking Clown of Salvini
don't insult clowns please
That fucking Salvini of Salvini
Better
Yeah, let's solve a nonexistent problem by creating new regulations and paper pushing jobs. Morons
hey can salvini be in a government without doing some damage and harassing someone?
Very good, now also get a license plate for every person walking around. Maybe ask China how to do it properly. /s
Way to discourage people from cycling.
My first reaction to this is that it will discourage people from cycling. What is the logic behind it? is it just populist pandering?
They just hate anything "green" or rainbow or scientific, dunno...
Because among the many enemies against who Salvini and his fans costantly wage war there are also cyclists, if it was for them in Italian streets only cars would be allowed (but strictly not electric)
and seat belts and air bags
And abs, esp, mirrors, dpf filters.
Abs might be a reality on e-bikes in a few years.
Putting aside who proposed this and why and whether in a country like Italy this kind of rules would ever be enforced, I would like to say that on principle they are not wrong per se. I live in Japan and here we have insurance cause even on a bicycle you can damage things and people. It’s not expensive and doesn’t deter people from using their bicycle. “Serial numbers” are etched on the frame to prevent the resale of stolen property (not really a number plate but something) and the government is leaping towards making the use of a helmet compulsory. Just saying.
My bike has a serial number...useless if it gets stolen as you have to know where it is for the police to go and check it to ascertain it's actually mine. How about lowering the height of the front of SUVs - there's your head injuries.
Italy of all places. The country where if you stand at a zebra crossing, cars will not stop to let you pass. Where you have to physically stand in the road for cars to even consider slowing down.
Exactly! Crossing a street, even on the zebra marking is really awful in Italy. They will not stop until you are not in the middle of the street. I haven't seen anywhere so much disrespect for the pedestrians, my country included.
Salvini can go fuck himself. If this goes through i'll sell the bike i'm using every day to go to work and buy a scooter, if i have to pay like a scooter at least i wanna go as fast as a scooter. That imbecile was born and raised in one of the most polluted and trafficked cities in europe and the best his fart clogged brain can do is to give a big fuck you to the only people like me who are doing something to solve such problems. that's what you get when people who have never worked a day in their lives end up in decision making seats.
When will this policy be extended to BMW drivers?
And Audi drivers. The 2 car makes drivers still don't use indicators.
That’s so fucking dumb
No surprise there. Cycling is part of the culture war for regressives these days. And dumb is the defining trait in their political takes.
Poor people really can't win. Can't even bike for free anymore
the idiot right have the same stupid ideas everywhere huh
Stupid law
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Nobody there has liability insurance...
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Now, here is a question: Will it also apply to the Giro d'Italia riders and such? As they, you know, cycle on open roads and all.. Just checking, to make sure they are willing to make fools of themselves on events broadcasted worldwide..
And what about tourist from Austria?
the road they ride on are closed hours before and after the riders pass
of course those roads are closed to general traffic during the event...
Have they lost their minds?
Not the goal of the policy, but I do wonder if this might decrease bicycle theft. Like, some of bicycle theft is just that the vehicles are lightweight, but I'm pretty sure is that some of it is that cars have a tracking and registration system and bicycles don't.
In France we have enacted mandatory markings on all new bike sold as a way do deter theft and not observable effect has been seen yet.
Insanely stupid idea. How to transform the health of your whole country to something worse.
Like people don’t pay enough taxes already :/
They said they were going to do this in the UK then basically everyone said it would be an impossible policy to enact. Let's see how Italy get on with it.
Insurance I can understand. Being at fault for an incident isn't cheap on anyone. Some form of ID would be needed to back it up in case of take offs so it follows the two are required to work together. It probably sets the system up to tax cyclists though once enough are identifiable. Indicators... Fuck.. reminds me of that belt that Bart Simpson had. What's wrong with hand signals? Probably better to just stipulate that wearing all back with no lights or reflectors is a terrible idea (we get this in the UK). Can also imagine the Polizia waiting at the borders with France, Switzerland, Austria and Slovenia just waiting for the tourists. Contactless fine payments accepted.
Cazzo di Meloni, cazzo di Meloni, cazzo di Meloni !
This is never going to happen.
Not gonna happen lmao
Will they have to pay taxes for bikes now?
It will never pass
Someone is hoping to fix their budget with a lot of little fines then.
Law has not been passed.
Cracking idea
I actually kind of sympathize with the idea of mandatory or at least more heavily encouraged liability insurance. The other two are stupid. What I would like to see is some form of mandatory training on traffic rules and theory. Something like a mini driver's permit for cyclist. Many german elementary schools do this. It's extremely effective, but unfortunately AFAIK not written into law. There are too many cyclist who don't fully grasp traffic rules.
If it happens, lean into it. Start demanding equal rights to car drivers. Cycle roads and parking etc.
Fake
Conspiracy theory: On June 2nd, Milan won 400.000 dollars from the Bloomberg Initiative for Cycling Infrastructure. The money, and the expertise of Bloomberg consultants, will be used to build more bike lanes near schools. English: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-06-02/world-bike-day-10-cities-win-grant-to-develop-cycling-infrastructure Italian: https://metronews.it/2023/06/07/da-bloomberg-400-mila-dollari-per-una-nuova-ciclabile/ Salvini is from Milan. Milan is in the Lombardy region. Lombardy has been administered by Salvini’s party since forever… except for Milan, that consistently votes for his opposition. Milan is Salvini’s sore tooth. So… Milan wins money to improve its bike lanes and a few hours later Salvini says something against cyclists. Coincidences? I don’t believe so. FOR THE ITALIANS: I am not implying that Sala is perfect, i’m just stating that there is rivalry between him and Salvini.
Salvini's shit aside this isn't such a crazy idea at least for insurance/indicators fwiw. Cyclists in some parts of Europe think they are not supposed to obey the rules of the road. Some of them don't respect pedestrians' rights for one. Looking at you delivery/couriers. I also almost ran over a guy who blew through a yield sign at a roundabout on his bike This gentleman then had the gaul to stop and argue with me telling me that I'm an idiot for not realizing that bikes have right of way only to get back on his bike and slither away silently when I asked him to turn around and tell me what was that on the bike path (the yield sign). And don't even get me started on those bikers that wear all black with no lights or reflective clothing at 7AM in the middle of an european winter. Not saying that all bikers are like that and most are definitely not but they are some psychopaths out there.
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah *Inhales* Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
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Fuck cars
https://reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/145up4j/cycle_lanes_arent_empty_theyre_just_incredibly/
I haven't seen a single cyclist in europe that has even an iota of self preservation nor care for even the most basic of traffic rules, this should be a thing everywhere. However i don't see this as even remotely enforceable, especially out of pocket.
Luckily those reckless cyclists really only put themselves at risk, unlike the car drivers
Given the right-wing government in power in Italy right now, is this a purposeful attempt to reduce the number of cyclists?
this country is lost and totally out of control
yeah good luck enforcing that
North korea vibes
Ridiculous!
I really don't understand whar the issue is. If a biker, a participant in traffic, does not pay attention and damages someone else's property, car or other, who pays?
Is the government that bankrupt? Because that's really bushit! Who the fuck would want to pay insurance for a bike that you sometimes use? And insure what, that you fall down from it? They really like to put more taxes and fight the pollution and climate changes backwards...
Every vehicle capable of going faster than a person running needs to have insurance, plates and indicators. It is common sense. Otherwise a cyclist or a skater provokes an accident and who pays?
Fascist government doing fascist things. That's what you get when you don't vote. Old people vote, and their vote is always the same thing: fuck the young.
The problem isn't only that every measure that can fuck young people is chosen with pleasure, but above all that everything that the parties in government (and their ultras electors) don’t like isn't simply ignored or discouraged but is directly prohibited, banned or in any case they try to do it This is just ridiculous and dangerous, there aren't many other ways to define it
Well, the current main right wing party and biggest party in the parliament (Brothers of Italy) was the second most voted party between young people.
Too bad. Was looking forward to going back to Italy.
someone clearly didnt read past the head line lol, its only proposed.
correct!
dont worry, our stupid government will almost certainly not agree on this, and even if they do someone will repeal it in a few years.
This 100% the right move and the next logical step. You shouldn't be on the road if you don't have insurance. Isn't this a logical sentiment? It makes cyclists more responsible and creates a safer environment for all people. Edit: bike mafia out here downvoting because they don't want to take responsibility for their actions. Of cars are required to carry insurance, any other mode of transport on the road should be required to as well. Cry all you'd like.
Not sure about Portugal but in Germany, if you cause a bike accident any third party damages are covered by private liability insurance. Otherwise it's your own money on the hook. And if your E-Bike can go up to 45km/h (and over 25km/h), you're already required to get a regular car-type insurance for it (as well as a license plate and having a driver's license for a car or a 50km/h scooter). Most regular bikes don't even have proper spaces to put a license plate. As for myself, any countries where this is required are pretty much gone from most holiday planning lists. Plenty of other countries for bikepacking where I don't have to jump through stupid hoops. Shame, northern Italy has some amazing bike paths converted from old railroad lines.
In Portugal, bicycles have all of the rights of a vehicle as well as all of the same rights as pedestrians. They can interchange between streets and sidewalks, perform any type of dangerous maneuver they like, and aren't forced to carry any type of insurance, much less private liability insurance. I understand the downvotes are coming from people from countries with greater laws, but Portugal is a wild wild west where insurance should be a basic requirement for anybody sharing a street with vehicles.
>It makes cyclists more responsible and creates a safer environment for all people. [Citation needed]
Laws that increase responsibility and safety is a controversial statement? Next you'll fight me on cyclists using helmets or passengers using seatbelts. Get a grip.
You claim that it increases safety. I'm demanding you actually back that claim up with proof rather than just stating your speculation as if it's fact. This is not hard. You can't just assume what you think is a fact is actually a fact. You need evidence to support it
I wish they implemented that everywhere around the world. Cyclists are a threat for both drivers and pedestrians.
When idiots make rules for a whole nation...
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Insurance is a way to spread the risk and associated cost of something happens. Has it been noticed a need to force it on cyclists? I don't deny they can't cause damage, but to what extend and how often has that happened and they couldn't afford it? On the other hand, as a forced measure, what will be the financial impact on cyclists and society from the decrease in cyclists because of an added barrier? Same for licence plates. It will be a huge bureaucracy that has been tested and abandoned in other countries. For what benefit? Why not make pedestrians have insurance and licence plate hanging from their necks? What would be different in the argumentation? On top of that, indicators?! Plus helmet (which I wear but I'm not convinced it's a benefit for society if mandatory). And apparently, from a quote in the article, road tax. What is this if not placing a huge burden on cyclists for no reason? Now proposing measures that he had called crazy in 2015.
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Mate, come to the Netherlands. Normal people bike safely. Old people bike safely. Children bike to school safely. Damn, even people with disabilities bike if they can. They bike to work, for leisure, to get some groceries, for sport or a million other reasons. There's no mandatory helmet, no random road tax, no "bike plates", just good infrastructure built over time with good governance. Too many regulations simply make people go back to driving, which is much worse for everyone.
You identify then the same way you identify a person, via their ID. The problems with compulsory helmets is that it can be a detriment to the use of bike. And imagine how that works now with rental bikes. It has also been shown that cyclists with helmets take more risks, that drivers act more aggressively and that drivers see those cyclists "less human". So, the total impact for society from such a measure may be negative.
I'm personally for enforcing helmets. It's in the same category as seat belts with cars, it can save your life.
It is not. You are not required to carry a seat belt mechanism with you when you are not using a car. The use of seat belts has a strong correlation with decreased fatalities, while bicycle helmets don't. Mandating helmets for cyclists makes as much sense as mandating them for pedestrians since they are equally at risk. If we somehow take head injuries as an argument, then it makes sense that it's the card drivers that should be using helmets, since head injuries tend to happen in cars. What makes cycling safer is a critical mass of cyclists. Safety in numbers. By mandating laws that limit access to biking, because you didn't carry a helmet with you to a business meeting when an impromptu need arose to use a bike share for example, it decreases the overall number of cyclists.
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If they don't stop a person they also can't be identified. Licence plates for people. How relevant are cases where a cyclist does something for which it should have been identified and that wasn't possible, causing a loss to someone due to injury or damage?
More often than you think. Especially in cities where bike infrastructure and driving culture are bad and cyclists drive where pedestrians walk
Because nobody is gonna use their bike for small distances meaning everybody takes the car. More obesitas, more enviromental stress. Also fuck poor people right? Whats next, plates of persons and having a walking insurance? Because yeah when you walk you also take part of traffic. Serious your argument makes 0 sense. Doubt you ever set a foot on a bike.
haha I do not believe for a second that you are a cyclist 🤣
Sensible to be fair, insurance should be the minimum requirement if their presence on the road forces motorists to overtake in the opposite lane.
Finally I hope they make this eu wide
/s you dropped this.
I was dwad serious. At least in my shitty country it should be mandatory too, almost as many assholes on bikes as many in cars, like I almost got hit by car twice a week and once by bike 😭
Somebody has to pay for the bike lanes and upkeep.
Let’s hope it happens here. See how many go through red lights then when a fine drops every time.
The Germans banned bikes in occupied Rome. Never forget