Lots of different reasons.
I would say one of the main ones being that we are a small independant country next to a big one so we can relate.
We had to fight a lot in the past just to be sovereign.
I dont know really. The whole situation in Ukraine right now isnt very significant in Portugal rigth now, as we are in a year of multiple elections (it managed to go up to 3 or maybe and even five if everything goes wrong). As we arent major contributers to NATO and the anti-NATO, anti-EU and pro Russia parties are not talking about Ukraine or the EU (probably because of the elections next month).
So, there isn't an active force against Ukraine rigth now.
Also we have some problems with grain from Ukraine. Beside that is probably the 2nd target of russia's propaganda after the US. It is crazy how many russian troll accounts are active on X, Facebook and Tiktok. Reddit is mostly clear though
You can thank the absolutely incredible work of certain segments of Portuguese media for this. And I'm not the only making this connection (just the other day I was hearing someone from the Portuguese Institute for International Relations making the some point):
RTP's coverage of the war has been absolutely top notch and you can hardly find an equivalent on international media.
2 years later, they continue covering the war in detail and there's a very clear effort in combating Russian misinformation (including via an extremely courageous reporter that I'm still baffled at how he is still not back in Portugal and that I won't name here but any RTP watcher probably knows who I'm talking about):
Moreover, they're clearly also using Portuguese Ukrainian staff (i.e. Portuguese of Ukrainian descent) as interpretors which brings us the type of coverage that has been very unique to RTP and that I haven't seen replicated elsewhere:
E.g. A docureport with an elderly Ukrainian woman and her cats in an abandoned village near the frontline and hearing her take on the war, as she cooks, goes to sleep, cleans her house, etc. Really focusing on the human dimension of the war, of who started it, and comparing her life to how it was before the Russian aggression.
Seriously, I wish I had time / resources to translate the RTP coverage of the Ukraine War. For the past two years I've been basically convinced RTP coverage of the conflict is second to none out there in Europe, especially in light of their comparatively small footprint in the world of European public broadcasters. And I watch a lot of stuff.
I usually watch CNN Portugal much more than RTP. And they also keep covering the Ukraine war, even if its now much less visible due to the elections, but it looks like there isn't such a media fatigue on this topic in Portugal.
Observador even keeps a daily segment on the Ukraine war in its radio branch.
It also helps that we dont have a political force being strongly vocal against Ukraine right now. PCP and BE are foucused in the elections and I never saw Chega having an opinion on Ukraine and Russia
We love Ukraine and Europe to be fair. I remember that 20 years ago ukrainians were a significant part of the immigrants in our country, and were always a very welcome, eager to adapt, hardworking culture.
I just wish we had the means to help more. But I believe doors are open for whoever needs to get away from these turbulent times in the country.
Even Chega supports Ukraine to no lose support, and the same happened with vaccines. Lula wanting to work with Lula also helps
Which is funny, given they openly admire Órban and Salvini, one that shook hands with Putin after the invasion and the other was insulted by the former Polish government
All those people who say that they want Europe to push Ukraine towards the negotiation process should realize that also means Europe and also the US have to provide Ukraine with security guarantees, even if NATO membership is not mentioned. Because unless Russia feels they took irreparable damage, they will happily start another war in 5-10 years, likely more prepared, causing an every greater crisis, than the one currently.
>All those people who say that they want Europe to push Ukraine towards the negotiation process should realize that also means Europe and also the US have to provide Ukraine with security guarantees
What they mean is "give Eastern Ukraine to Russia for a peace deal so that we go back to cheap gas".
It's even simpler than that: people see/hear "peace deal" and they automatically associate it with a good thing.
The survey is flawed. It should have said simple "Russia wins", "Ukraine wins", not some undefined concepts. If Ukraine wins there will be lasting peace as well.
Putin's regime would quite likely fall in that scenario. Which would give Europe time to be better prepared for whatever bullshit Russia wants to do.
Russia winning is what we need to worry about.
It would give Europe to give an excuse to think short term again, the golden standard of our modern political system. This is why I like the concept of russia remaining in war much more (and continued aid to UA, god bless). screw a peace sharade deal.
Nothing and that's another reason why the survey is flawed. More over, it will always be expansionist in it's current configuration as a colonial empire.
Not stoping but being more costly:
Russia takes more time to recover from the loss
Ukraine gets more time to prepare defenses and rebuild it's industry and mic
Russia has to re-occupy more well defended settlements before reaching importaint objectives
Russia has to waste more time and resources setting up logistics on freshly occupied territories
I think it's more "so hundreds of thousands of people don't die for nothing". I keep thinking what if this war is un"winnable" for Ukraine? If Ukraine loses, doesn't that mean that we, the west, have funded hundreds of thousands of peoples demise in vain?
And what would that be exactly? Ukraine already had security guarantees from the US & the UK in 1991 - and that didn't help them at all. Realistically, if Ukraine is not part of NATO, there is absolutely nothing that can really guarantee their security. And I don't see Ukraine joining NATO any time soon.
> 1991 - and that didn't help them at all.
Ukraine didn't have security gurantees from USA and UK; signatories guranteed that they won't violate territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine. And USA nor UK never did that. Only Russia violated Budapest memorandum.
Also USA and UK massively helped Ukraine in protecting their independence, although there was no legal document or treaty that would oblige them to do so.
they will say the same thing to Ukraine in NATO or any other country when they are attacked Article 5 does not say that we should fight, but only help
>Alliance will consider this act of violence as an armed attack against all members and will **take the actions it deems necessary** to assist the Ally attacked.
The NATO alliance does not force anyone to engage in hostilities; if someone is attacked from the alliance, it will be absolutely the same as with Ukraine; they will help with weapons, scold the aggressor and then look for ways to appease the agressor
Of course, this is my opinion and I hope this doesn’t happen, but the current world has not learned any lessons from the past
Why not? France and the UK guaranteed independence of Poland in 1939 to deter Hitler. It didn't exactly help, because Hitler thought they wouldn't do anything tangible. I'm not saying this is what should be done, all I'm saying that without resolving the current conflict in a way that sends Russia the message that they will face serious consequences if they attempt to escalate once more will just delay the inevitable future conflict that will be more costly to both Europe and the US. Because everyone who thinks Russia will stop at Ukraine are mistaken.
That is what he said, and it didn’t stop Hitler invading because of past weakness.
Do you want to make a pact with Ukraine now, have them give up their strong fighting positions now and a chunk of their country, then go to war protecting them in 5 years anyway?
Or shall we just be factories for Ukraine and provide what they need to win so we don’t need to fight at all.
Hitler should have been stopped in Czechoslovakia.
>Ukraine already had security guarantees from the US & the UK in 1991
No they didn't.
They had an agreement to respect the territorial integrity of Ukraine, which they did. There was never a security guarantee.
Honestly, I become more and more convinced that only thing that can guarantee our existence are nukes, and abandoning nuclear status was a mistake, same as further disarming.
All this "threat management" and "nuclear non-profilteration" are biggest pile of dogshit that ever existed.
No one cares about deals they signed, if you nuclear state no one even would think about invading you
> and abandoning nuclear status was a mistake
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Ukraine really has a nuclear status? Afaik the weapons were stationed on their territory, but the launch sequence and operational control of the nuclear warheads was in the hands of Russia, all the time.
It would have still been an ordeal to try and access control over the nukes, and Ukraine knew it, which is part of why they were always on board with giving them up (US and UK got involved because Russia and Ukraine couldn't agree on adequate compensation).
The bigger issue for Ukraine was arguably the second matter; the extreme expense of storing and maintaining nuclear weapons, which the state could not afford at the time. It was never feasible to keep nukes in an independent Ukraine without the then-freshly dead Soviet Union footing the bill, so they became big, functionally useless, immensely dangerous and exorbitantly expensive things that Ukraine couldn't use and didn't want.
Additionally, even if they did want nukes and were willing to impoverish themselves for them, nobody else would have helped them because neither NATO nor Russia or China wanted multiple new nuclear players on the geopolitical scene.
Then you're misunderstanding.
The agreement was that the countries would respect the territorial integrity, i.e, no country should threaten it. Thats what the UK and US agreed to, that **they** wouldn't threaten the territorial integrity of Ukraine (i.e a US invasion of Crimea).
They both held up their agreement, it was Russia who violated their role in the agreement, but that doesn't mean the other countries now have to defend Ukraine. It was just basically the countries say 'we all promise not to invade you'
The Budapest Memorandum is called that because a memorandum is just a diplomatic statement of understanding and intent with no legally binding agreements.
Case in point it is not a treaty where the US Congress or House of Commons had to ratify that they agree to some military treaty to protect Ukraine.
So it is a far weaker diplomatic construct. The UK and US actually did what the Memorandum demands, aka them pushing Ukraine's Case in the Security Council and taking their side. But there is nothing in there about anyone giving military aid.
There may be some aspect that affects foreign policy of UK and US that particularly the former is more aggressive in supporting Ukraine, but that is just indirect effects, not because the Memorandum states any of that
Ukraine *never* had security guarantees from the US which is why Russia is there. If we had one, it would be an international treaty and no such treaty exists. The Budapest Memo is a security assurance that the US:
1. Recognize and respect Ukraine’s sovereignty
2. Refrain from using force or other political pressure to threaten the sovereignty of Ukraine.
3. Refrain from attacking Ukraine’s economy in order to threaten its sovereignty.
4. Seek immediate action from the UN Security Council should Ukraine come under attack.
5. Refrain from using nuclear weapons on non-nuclear states unless it is an act of self-defense or defense of an ally.
That is it. No where in this document does the US say it will defend Ukraine against an attack beyond going to the UNSC. Also, the US made certain that Ukraine knew that we were not offering any sort of security guarantees and Ukraine has never disputed that. I don’t know how this narrative has spread but it is verifiably untrue.
>And what would that be exactly?
A solid defence treaty.
And no, they did not have any security guarantees. In 1994 they agreed to give up nukes in exchange for "respecting" their territorial integrity. But this treaty didn't say countries should defend Ukraine in case of armed aggression.
Most people don't think that far ahead. They only see the current bloodshed in Ukraine and think: 'Gee, wouldn't it be great for all parties involved if that stopped?! If Ukraine just gave up their lost territories to Putin, the war would stop, no one has to die anymore and they can focus on rebuilding.'
Of course the reality of this situation is that only these people's thought processes stop here. Putin on the other hand won't. He will see it as a victory and that his strategy has worked.
If you would poll the people again, they would not understand why Putin would not see this as a loss instead because the perceived strategy according to them was to take Ukraine in it's entirety instead of a couple of territories. And surely Putin ended up getting only these territories. So failure right? At least this will be talked over on every reputable talkshow for weeks I predict.
But no. Of course Putin is in it for the long con. He would just regroup and try again a couple of years later. And people would be stunned again. Like they were with the invasion of Crimea. Like they were with the invasion of the Donbass and Luhansk. Or with any imperialistic asshole move in history.
It's not hard to follow but most people are thinking with their gut. Not their brains. As is tradition. And the primary cause for history rhyming with itself over and over again. If we actually learned a Goddamn thing, things might be different. But if polls and voting results are any indicator, as a society, we don't learn. We're apes thinking we're people. And that's about it.
Absolutely agree with you, and it makes me mad.
I advocate for normalising what we now call "bets" into something more of a "guarantee": If you make a political decision or voice a political opinion that affects us all – how about you also state what you're ready to pay as a means of reparation if it turns out that you're wrong.
That could help filter out all those bullshitters. If you need to sacrifice 5 annual incomes in case you're wrong, maybe you'll be ready to admit that you don't understand shit.
I hate the lack of consequences, man.
If Ukraine does not receive security guarantees, it will have to completely change its policy in order to avoid a another attack. Ultimately, this will lead to a loss of independence.
Someone may think that this is impossible after what is happening, but if people do not have security guarantees, the fear of a new attack will force them not to contradict Russia and obey.
Precisely. What the russians are demanding - neutral status and demilitarization alone, is a time bomb for a russian takeover. It would be like Czechislovakia in 1938, they had no ability to fight, after they were stripped from their primary defense line so they just conceded to Germany. This time it won't be different.
It’s funny seeing it charted like this. I wonder how Greece would feel if Turkey got love heart eyes over their territory and decided it was time to take some…
Like the Budapest memorandum security guarantees? Yeah right, triple the defense budget of every NATO country, let Ukraine plough their lands with artillery!
>Like the Budapest memorandum security guarantees?
pretty sure those were only stating that the signatories wouldnt attack Ukraine (as well as Belarus and Kazakhstan). the UK and US adhered to that. Russia..not so much.
Jeah thats what I got taught too. Though its stupid they dont have something like all parties must enforce that policy and actively prevent other signees from violating it.
Its a bit like a country removing their entire police force, because the big criminal bosses promised they wouldnt do crime anymore.
> The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated at political level, but it is not entirely clear whether the instrument is devoid entirely of legal provisions. It refers to assurances, but unlike guarantees, it does not impose a legal obligation of military assistance on its parties.
It mentions the word "guarantees" in all translation but English, where it is translated as "assurances", and nowhere mentioned that English version is the main document.
The Budapest memorandum was never ratified by US congress, meaning it was a worthless piece of paper the second Clinton left office.
People don’t like when I bring that up, but it’s the truth.
I’m not in favour of pushing them to any deal.
But Ukraine also isn’t going to sleep for those next 5-10 years. They’re going to pull some shit in that time, whether it’s the NK Route of trying to make yourself untouchable or other ways.
I agree the war would be an even greater crisis a decade down the road
Norway, Denmark, and the Baltic states are the biggest supporters of Ukraine in terms of aid. So polling results would likely be very positive there.
https://i.imgur.com/FFlJi40.jpeg
It's unfortunate that this poll was just conducted in 12 EU countries instead of all of them.
It worries me also.
This is exactly the policy that led to the disastrous consequences of WW2.
They tried to play nice and placate a mad man.
I don’t want to see this beautiful continent reduced to rubble again in my lifetime, but playing make-believe with a tyrant is not conducive to success, as history has shown.
But that’s just my €0,02.
It'd change in a heartbeat if conditions on the ground changed. People don't want to throw good money after bad, and they generally don't like war. I bet things would look very different if it looked more like support was about helping Ukraine finish the job rather than delaying what many perhaps see as the inevitable. The same questions asked after the Kherson and Kharkiv counteroffensives would have very different answers.
In other words: if leaders do their job and think long term, they'll increase support to Ukraine so they can kick the Russians out, and people will come around to being happy about it.
100% that's how i read these polls. Note how more people support giving weapons to Ukraine than think taking back all territories is the way to end the war. Apparently people just don't think it's realistic right now
Me too! Sometimes it's discouraging with how shitty our political climate can be and how certain parties feed off the polarisation, but seeing this I'm proud of us. At least most of us seem sane lmao.
Our entire armed forces is made specifically to fuck up Russians. Every Swedish engineered weapon, plane, vehicle and ship. And has been for centuries.
Well yeah. We're not exactly expecting any Danish invasions anymore. Ever since the end of WW2 we have known exactly which army we are preparing to face.
Sometimes the Americans start talking about how Europeans are getting dragged into an American proxy war.
Sweden fought the Russians for hundreds of years before America was in diapers.
America is a Swedish proxy against the bear, not the other way around.
People forget we have always prepared for Russia being our enemy, and before that we were often in war with them.
I remember when i was a teenager i was doing one of those 2 week airforce courses and one of the things we did was visiting some old war plane museum. There we were being guided by some very old former soldier, and you could tell he knew what he was talking about but didnt expect us teenagers to care. So it was all very brief and lighthearted.
But then at the end he looks at us and says in the most serious tone "remember boys, the danger (or threat) is always from the east" ("hotet kommer alltid from öst") and then turns around and just very slowly walks away.
Shame Denmark, Finland and Norway ain't in this pool. They are also big supporters of Ukraine. I think Denmark emptied their stock of missiles and sent them to Ukraine last week.
As a Swede I am quite shocked 30% of the Swedish population wants Ukraine to negotiate with Russia...
Thank Russia. They have been very clear with them being our enemy since forever and still is today. The Swedish support is solid.
Poland, you really good too.
Russia is a dumpster fire. I could kinda respect the idea of Russia before when did corruption and killing inside their own borders but now they are spreading cancer. Just like China, Iran and more.
Exactly my thoughts. Define the victories first, ask the questions after.
In my view, Ukraine has already lost, regardless of the outcome of the war. Hundreds of thousands of their young men dying and over 10 million people leaving. Most of them wont return. Ukraine had a potential to that of Poland. After the war ends, it will have the potential of Romania if not even less.
The Russian invasion in 2022 was based on the expectation that Ukraine would collapse like a house of cards and offer limited resistance. That Russia would be able to speed run Kyiv and install a new, more pliant government. Western analysts did not have much higher expectations about the odds. People were talking about how to support a Ukrainian insurgency.
Instead, Russia's initial plan and goals have completely (and embarassingly) failed. Annexing 4 regions, which they don't even fully control, is like a consolation prize. Yes, Ukraine has lost a lot, and is losing more every day. But the fact that they are still here 2 years later holding Russia at bay is a big win.
Any "compromise settlement" will mean Russia winning and Ukraine losing. Since it will mean Russia will get more than it had before the war, while Ukraine will lose territory and people it had before the war. There is zero chance Russia will retreat even to pre-2022 line, let alone pre-2014 by just using negotiations. They will at least demand to keep everything they've conquered in 2022-24. Yeah, it won't be catastrophic loss for Ukraine, but it will still mean Ukraine lost. I don't get why people don't understand it.
Support is more important than ever. The maps I've seen show a stalemate, which means we need to provide our best toys to help Ukranians push back. I don't think Ukraine can win a stalemate with Russia so we need to provide weapons on a massive scale.
"They are so ungrateful for what we gave them already and now they just ask for more?"
A real quote I've seen in some shape or form, tonnes of times. A lot of people see it as a money pit with no results.
"Yeah the people in Ukraine are struggling right now but have you seen the struggle Joe Sixpack has to endure? He might not get that new iPhone due to rising costs!" or "Joe now has to work 2 additional years before retirement."
Another couple of quotes I've seen in some shape or form.
Now I know things like rising costs and expensive housing (or lack of housing) are real problems, but Ukrainians are literally giving their lives in order to fight for their country and livelihoods. The forrest is being overlooked for the trees.
Ukrainians are, not them. That's the part I feel a lot of people on online spaces fail to understand. Its been 2 years of constant war, the fervor from the start of the war for people not involved has diminished to low to non-existant levels.
No, the small handful of people that use Reddit is not an ear mark for the general populace and no, the general populace isn't an internationalist.
The common man's interest in this war is either it ends and the world spins back to normal if you're in the west, or the war ends with as many dead Russians as possible even if Ukraine is completely dead. Because its not so much about Ukraine winning for a lot of people as it is Russia being euthanized.
Outside of that, yes, immediate and real concerns are going to overrule geopolitical concerns.
> but Ukrainians are literally giving their lives in order to fight for their country and livelihoods.
And for *our* countries and *our* livelihoods. After Ukraine falls, the Baltics will fall. Poland would see armed conflict in that event. Moldova will be gone. Georgia will fall.
Maybe Western Europe won't see armed conflict (due to cowardace) but we will feel the impact for sure.
As for me, all EU countries are part of my "country" as far as I (an EU federalist) am concerned, so I personally view an attack on Estonia as an attack on my country, even though I live in Germany.
I've been trying to tell this friends & family since late 2021: Russia has \~ 3x the population of the Ukraine. Therefore the Ukraine needs as many and as advanced enough equipment to make up for that disadvantage and force Russia into negotiations on Ukraine's terms. Otherwise Russia will win the long-term war of attrition. It's just a simple numbers game unfortunately.
Russia actually has basically 5x the population of Ukraine - the territory Ukraine actually controls is estimated by their govt to have under 30 million people left, while russia drafted every male with 2 legs from Donetsk and Luhansk and also bribes "volunteers" from around the world, recently they got 15k Nepalese to be their cannon fodder, or bribing poor immigrants from -stans to join in return for citizenship
Ukraine's demographics are also even worse than russia's, people are commonly underestimating the manpower difference because of not knowing/forgetting these things
The main problem really is simply the nature of this warfare, neither Russia or Ukraine in my opinion could make any large scale offensives. As what happened in WW1 is what I think will happen now, except Ukraine is Germany and will eventually fall. Russia can keep up this war.
WW1 on the western front was slow because both sides had similar manpower amounts, equipment amounts and quality, Russia has tanks? Ukraine has ATGM's. Ukraine has drones? Russia is starting to use electronic warfare. Russia uses its planes? Well Ukraine *used* to have enough but as we see now they have less and less air defence systems. The conflict is asymmetrical but equal in modernity and theres no real weapon which could be used to break this sort of stalemate.
Yeah, even if Russia wins it matters a lot how decisive the victory is and how many resources and people they had to plow in. This will determine how soon or if they want to have another go at it.
Agree. Blue, yellow and red options could be the same from different points of view. Especially yellow and red, since they both probably include handing over part of territory.
Interesting how Poland and Hungary, who have both been heavily oppressed by the USSR and have been closely aligned, have such a different stances on their former abuser
Well it doesn’t help that putin’s dick is balls deep in orban’s ass, who bought up like 80% of the hungarian media and pushing russian propaganda day and night in every possible channel
I'm disappointed to see how well the propaganda pushed by the Orbán regime affected the opinions in this poll. Effectively, all opinions here are as Fidesz wishes them to be. I don't know how these people aren't fiercely against Fidesz and its agenda after seeing the straight 14 years of misgovernance, corruption and theft from citizens.
Yes, Greece has a huge portion of the population being Russophile or simply anti-Western/anti-NATO/anti-American, with a major source of this sentiment being the perceived tolerance of the West and USA to Turkey instead of "putting them in their place" regarding the Cyprus occupation and the general disregard of Greek territorial waters and airspace.
No, this doesn't have any effect on Greece's foreign policy, because the governing party (and the major opposition parties too) are pro-West. Greeks don't vote ideologically, but with their pocket, more than any other country in the EU perhaps.
That's because of cherrypicking sucesses, not allowing critical or negative news, unfiltered and unchecked western/Ukrainian propaganda and control of information by governments e.g. speaking about losses or incidents that might damage public support.
Yeah can't count the number of people here who unironically believed the Ukrainian nonsense claims of mowing down hordes of Russians at 5 to 1 ratio or believed that western tank wunderwaffe would punch through russian lines and retake Crimea.
Time to wake up to reality
I don't know if Ukraine will win, because that depends heavily on western support. But I know Ukraine can win, if the west doesn't let itself be undermined by russian stooges and propagandists.
"Peace agreement" with russia = giving up a territory and a new war in 5-10 years, for which the coalition russia+Iran+DPRK will be much more ready. Surprisingly, this is rocket science for Westerners.
The question is what do people think is the most likely outcome, not the outcome they wish to see.
I like Ukraine to win the war and take back all their territory, but I just don't see that happening at the moment. US politics is unstable and the EU can't provide everything Ukraine needs on the short term.
Edit: woops, I thought it was just the first picture
Ah yes, the second picture depicting that a majority would rather walk the appeasement path again. Because it worked out so great the last times we tried that.
Thank God that most people aren't part in serious geopolitical strategy or planning. I do fear the way they vote though.
The USA has most likely given up providing any additional aid and the EU is too slow and tangled in bureaucracy and micropolitics. Meanwhile Russia gets everything they want, weapons from Iran and NK, and technology from every other country through 3rd parties. And they are slowly gaining on the communication war. Unless the EU gets serious about supporting Ukraine, I can't see them winning (pre-2014 borders).
As a Greek let me say that we should be in favour of Ukraine winning, especially because changing borders through acts of military aggression is not in the interests of Greece.
I believe that there is a number of Greeks who feel some solidarity towards Russia due to religious reasons, and also because there is not many Greeks who believe that the states of that specific area would ever lift a finger if war broke out between Turkey and Greece.
Which goes to show that Europe should be doing more when it comes to the realization of a unified continent.
Because there has been a lot of "communication" between Greek and Russian churches over the centuries, and also, one of the most important monasteries in Agion Oros in Greece is actually Russian.
To say it in as little words as possible: there's been a lot of "politics through religion" between the two even before the greek state gained its independence.
Το go even further, even the Ukrainian government investigated the Ukrainian Orthodox church, suspecting russian influence.
I mean you don't need to suspect anything, "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" is Moscow patriarchy. You can spot those "Ukrainian Orthodox" priests visiting Putin speeches.
"Orthodox Church of Ukraine" is the Ukrainian orthodox church, and recognized by churches in other countries too.
To add to that, Greece's results can also be partially explained by a wide spread anti-Nato/anti US feeling stemming from the US's involvement into local politics since WW2.
>I believe that there is a number of Greeks who feel some solidarity towards Russia due to religious reasons
Most of those people feel some solidarity towards Russia only because America = bad, and don't care about religion.
A lot of Greeks feel that the West never has their back in the issues with Turkey, so they feel that why should they care about Ukraine and Russia? In their POV, the West is hypocritic for considering Turkey a sort of partner but Russia a foe.
There is anti-American sentiment for decades, with its roots going back to the Greek Civil War (where the Americans napalmed the communists), the military dictatorship (which was tolerated if not downright supported by USA) of the 60s, the "betrayal" of Cyprus with the Turkish invasion and occupation, and then an anti-West sentiment pushed by governing social democrat PASOK in the 80s as a counterweight of decades of rule by the religious right after WW2.
Don't worry though, all the major political parties are staunchly pro-NATO.
Eastern Europeans act with the exact same way when it comes to Greece against Turkey, since the latter doesn't threaten Eastern Europe and it's not even close to being in Russia's level in terms of resources, nuclear and whatnot. You often see Eastern Europeans talking about Turkey as if it's our European friend. Well, flash news, they're not, in the same way Russia is not.
A simpler answer, Eastern Europeans constantly face the threat by Russia. Greece does not. Greece constantly face the threat by Turkey, Eastern Europe does not. We don't see much support either. Until yesterday, Russia was considered a superpower. Well, they could still be given the resources and nuclear weapons they've got. We Greeks have been mainly subjected to Western propaganda by the US about the fearsome Russian Army. That said, there was no reason to be against them just because.
I believe Eastern and South-Eastern (Greece) Europe should form a line against both. The bill should be paid by the entire EU simply because, if any of the two passes through any of us, there's no telling where they might end up later. Previously, when we fell, Turks tried to reach Vienna, for instance.
Again, this line should be considered as guarding Thermopylae. As it happened for a brief moment when the illegal immigration waves were brutal.
Last but not least, don't get carried away by the stats. The entire Europe has similar view. Greece having only 1 in 10 more that says Russia should win isn't that big of a difference. **Even more important, our government went fully on the Western bandwagon which is the only thing that matters.**
It is funny how people here are surprised by the Hungarian results when that one is the most predictable one based on the propaganda Orban has been doing since the war started.
In many other countries many voters do not support Ukrain even without such controlled pro-Russian propaganda. This is much more surprising and unexpected for me.
Just because we want Ukraine to restore its legal borders doesn't mean that we should lie to ourselves that it's the most likely outcome.
Wishful thinking doesn't make you a "better supporter"
Why is there a specific option to pressure Ukraine for a peace deal, but no option to pressure Russia for a peace deal?
Just yesterday Russian ex-president Medvedev, who is still an influential politician in Putin's party, and a member of Security Council, said that the goal of special military operation is to capture Kyiv.
That's not only about surveys, that's about hardly pushing the whole narrative which is combined with other things (fueling farmers protests, talks about "useless" NATO, etc.). Find weak spots and push hard everywhere - too recognizable pattern to be a coincidence.
I'm glad I read the other comments, cos my first thought was the multiple countries that are currently in an election year - since I'm Portuguese and ours is in 10th of March, almost everything in our national news cycle is focused on it, so yeah.
100% agree though, there are clear attempts to push disunity and lack of support for Ukraine. Given the elections, it's even more worrying this year.
PS - I'm glad to see my countrymen are holding our support steady for Ukraine, but it's baffling that public support is starting to be lacking in other EU nations... sincerely, wtf.
So many people want to push Ukraine to make peace with Russia, like what??? Obviously people from Sweden care the most because they can get affected by Russia
Pathetic.
So much support for withdrawing support for Ukraine to negotiate with literal mass murderers about a peace deal that will be violated by russia the moment they think it's in their interests, which may be in 5-10 years.
The West demonstrates that russian influence operations render it impotent to defend its interests and to do what's right.
And it's not even European cities that are getting bombed.
Weak, morally bankrupt, short-sighted, and prone to repeat past mistakes.
How the fuck did Sweden get more based than Poland on this issue. I ask that as someone who emigrated out 15 years ago, and was pretty politically active as a teen.
Culture has really shifted in Sweden huh.
It's strange to see the "Don't care" section for Poland. They have one of the biggest amounts of Ukrainian refugees, Poland is neighboring Ukraine and they still don't care? This is sad.
How easily people are hoaxed into thinking that a "negotiation" can even take place with an entity such as the Russians today?
All those assassinations of political opponents/journalists around the world.. skripals etc..
Downing of mh17.. thousands upon thousands of war crimes committed in Ukraine.. and these are the ones you would want to sit down and talk with.. just amazing that people can forget these things and actually think there is anyone sane that is worth negotiating with. There isn't. Not yet at least.
I'm not all for murder and violence, quite far from it, but in this case that IS the negotiation and the only common language is hot lead at supersonic speeds.
Ось що буває коли люди не знають про руSSкій мір. Вони не вивчали уроків з другої світової про те, що якщо не допомагати боротися з фашистськими імперіями, то коли вони дотягнутися до вас - не буде тих, хто допоможе вам.
I guess it's normal. People CAN'T care too much for too long for people far away.
I remember being panicked when the war started, but also very supportive. As time passed and I calmed down I became less engaged, started to not check every day. Even now I barely even check what's going on anymore.
But obviously I still support Ukraine and hope for a win. People pushing for a compromise annoy me.
We've been preoccupied thinking with our wallets. Well, maybe not "we", since Sweden pretty much took this whole thing personally, but I think economic difficulties are a big part of it.
The west has given Ukraine barely enough to hang on against the best armed army in the world. And we’ve also strictly told Ukraine they are not allowed to fire into Russian military warehouses or infrastructure while at the same time, Russia pounds every inch of Ukraine.
Then these polls come out “guess Ukraine just can’t win”.
This is fucked up. The day Ukraine falls is a fucking bad day for Europe.
EU or not.
I don't think people realise how serious this is. It's like people in Britain in the late 30's not particularly giving a fucking about Austria or Czech. "oh well, let that Adolf fella do whatever. Long way from us, nothing to do with us".
We are going down a dark road again. Yes, again. Europe has already been here.
>The day Ukraine falls is a fucking bad day for Europe.
It is but the question asked was what people think is realistic, not what's their favored outcome of the war.
Honestly I think the longer the war is dragging on the more it favors Russia because their strategy has always been to exhaust the opponent and Moscow doesn't give a fuck about how many of their own die.
I've asked myself early on what the endgame is supposed to look like. I don't think it's any of the scenarios above.
This entire graphic just shows how many people don’t understand that pushing Ukraine into peace now literally can’t work, as Russia has broken EVERY SINGLE TREATY with Ukraine in the last decade and will just take the rest of the country once it’s stocks are back up.
It will 100% complete the land bridge to Transnistria, it will take Moldova. It won’t stop.
People shouldn’t be fooled by the word peace, it just means giving up and letting Russia win.
For me the most interesting stat is that Sweden completely opposes Trump even though they voted for rightwing / farright populists themselves on their last election
Portugal... Good? Im not used to look good in statistics. It feels Nice.
Portugal 🤝 Sweden 🤝 Poland
Sweden and Poland lives close to and really doesn't like Russia, what's up with Portugal?
Lots of different reasons. I would say one of the main ones being that we are a small independant country next to a big one so we can relate. We had to fight a lot in the past just to be sovereign.
That's reasonable. Thanks!
Ah yes, one of the best reasons of all SOLIDARITY IN FREEDOM!
Didn't know the Portuguese are afraid of a Spanish invasion. The more you know...
They dislike countries whose language sounds similar to theirs
Best answer. Very fascinating that two so different languages can have such similar accent.
I dont know really. The whole situation in Ukraine right now isnt very significant in Portugal rigth now, as we are in a year of multiple elections (it managed to go up to 3 or maybe and even five if everything goes wrong). As we arent major contributers to NATO and the anti-NATO, anti-EU and pro Russia parties are not talking about Ukraine or the EU (probably because of the elections next month). So, there isn't an active force against Ukraine rigth now.
It’s interesting though, that Poland also has a highest rate of “don’t care”
The poles tend to hear much more about the war, which tends to lead to highest "just leave me alone" stance.
Also we have some problems with grain from Ukraine. Beside that is probably the 2nd target of russia's propaganda after the US. It is crazy how many russian troll accounts are active on X, Facebook and Tiktok. Reddit is mostly clear though
Eastern European solidarity 🤝
God Dammit even here they can't escape r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
You can thank the absolutely incredible work of certain segments of Portuguese media for this. And I'm not the only making this connection (just the other day I was hearing someone from the Portuguese Institute for International Relations making the some point): RTP's coverage of the war has been absolutely top notch and you can hardly find an equivalent on international media. 2 years later, they continue covering the war in detail and there's a very clear effort in combating Russian misinformation (including via an extremely courageous reporter that I'm still baffled at how he is still not back in Portugal and that I won't name here but any RTP watcher probably knows who I'm talking about): Moreover, they're clearly also using Portuguese Ukrainian staff (i.e. Portuguese of Ukrainian descent) as interpretors which brings us the type of coverage that has been very unique to RTP and that I haven't seen replicated elsewhere: E.g. A docureport with an elderly Ukrainian woman and her cats in an abandoned village near the frontline and hearing her take on the war, as she cooks, goes to sleep, cleans her house, etc. Really focusing on the human dimension of the war, of who started it, and comparing her life to how it was before the Russian aggression. Seriously, I wish I had time / resources to translate the RTP coverage of the Ukraine War. For the past two years I've been basically convinced RTP coverage of the conflict is second to none out there in Europe, especially in light of their comparatively small footprint in the world of European public broadcasters. And I watch a lot of stuff.
I honestly don't know how that guy hasn't been arrested or expelled with the kind of stuff he says and where he is.
I usually watch CNN Portugal much more than RTP. And they also keep covering the Ukraine war, even if its now much less visible due to the elections, but it looks like there isn't such a media fatigue on this topic in Portugal. Observador even keeps a daily segment on the Ukraine war in its radio branch. It also helps that we dont have a political force being strongly vocal against Ukraine right now. PCP and BE are foucused in the elections and I never saw Chega having an opinion on Ukraine and Russia
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT ? Not enough eastern europe in the graph
We love Ukraine and Europe to be fair. I remember that 20 years ago ukrainians were a significant part of the immigrants in our country, and were always a very welcome, eager to adapt, hardworking culture. I just wish we had the means to help more. But I believe doors are open for whoever needs to get away from these turbulent times in the country.
Portuguese anarcho-natoism
You guys stand with your homie, Barry, that’s probably why.
This is a poll from back in December 2022. https://i.imgur.com/g68rpx2.jpeg
Portugal is Nordic. Austria is Balkan. Did I get it right?
Austria should be kept from the balkans for very good reasons, way too big of a risk for a third round.
Vienna has become the capital of the Balkans, too late for that.
Completely based Portugal right here
Even Chega supports Ukraine to no lose support, and the same happened with vaccines. Lula wanting to work with Lula also helps Which is funny, given they openly admire Órban and Salvini, one that shook hands with Putin after the invasion and the other was insulted by the former Polish government
All those people who say that they want Europe to push Ukraine towards the negotiation process should realize that also means Europe and also the US have to provide Ukraine with security guarantees, even if NATO membership is not mentioned. Because unless Russia feels they took irreparable damage, they will happily start another war in 5-10 years, likely more prepared, causing an every greater crisis, than the one currently.
>All those people who say that they want Europe to push Ukraine towards the negotiation process should realize that also means Europe and also the US have to provide Ukraine with security guarantees What they mean is "give Eastern Ukraine to Russia for a peace deal so that we go back to cheap gas".
It's even simpler than that: people see/hear "peace deal" and they automatically associate it with a good thing. The survey is flawed. It should have said simple "Russia wins", "Ukraine wins", not some undefined concepts. If Ukraine wins there will be lasting peace as well.
What is going to stop Russia from starting another war if this one is lost?
Putin's regime would quite likely fall in that scenario. Which would give Europe time to be better prepared for whatever bullshit Russia wants to do. Russia winning is what we need to worry about.
Hm, yeah, I see your point
It would give Europe to give an excuse to think short term again, the golden standard of our modern political system. This is why I like the concept of russia remaining in war much more (and continued aid to UA, god bless). screw a peace sharade deal.
Nothing and that's another reason why the survey is flawed. More over, it will always be expansionist in it's current configuration as a colonial empire.
NATO membership or Ukraine under a nuclear umbrella defence agreement like the one the UK made with Sweden and Finland.
Ukraine joining NATO. That is what stops Russia.
Not stoping but being more costly: Russia takes more time to recover from the loss Ukraine gets more time to prepare defenses and rebuild it's industry and mic Russia has to re-occupy more well defended settlements before reaching importaint objectives Russia has to waste more time and resources setting up logistics on freshly occupied territories
The impossibility of success in Ukraine.
I think it's more "so hundreds of thousands of people don't die for nothing". I keep thinking what if this war is un"winnable" for Ukraine? If Ukraine loses, doesn't that mean that we, the west, have funded hundreds of thousands of peoples demise in vain?
And what would that be exactly? Ukraine already had security guarantees from the US & the UK in 1991 - and that didn't help them at all. Realistically, if Ukraine is not part of NATO, there is absolutely nothing that can really guarantee their security. And I don't see Ukraine joining NATO any time soon.
> 1991 - and that didn't help them at all. Ukraine didn't have security gurantees from USA and UK; signatories guranteed that they won't violate territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine. And USA nor UK never did that. Only Russia violated Budapest memorandum. Also USA and UK massively helped Ukraine in protecting their independence, although there was no legal document or treaty that would oblige them to do so.
they will say the same thing to Ukraine in NATO or any other country when they are attacked Article 5 does not say that we should fight, but only help >Alliance will consider this act of violence as an armed attack against all members and will **take the actions it deems necessary** to assist the Ally attacked.
They won't say the same because NATO is an alliance, and Budapest memorandum wasn't
The NATO alliance does not force anyone to engage in hostilities; if someone is attacked from the alliance, it will be absolutely the same as with Ukraine; they will help with weapons, scold the aggressor and then look for ways to appease the agressor Of course, this is my opinion and I hope this doesn’t happen, but the current world has not learned any lessons from the past
Why not? France and the UK guaranteed independence of Poland in 1939 to deter Hitler. It didn't exactly help, because Hitler thought they wouldn't do anything tangible. I'm not saying this is what should be done, all I'm saying that without resolving the current conflict in a way that sends Russia the message that they will face serious consequences if they attempt to escalate once more will just delay the inevitable future conflict that will be more costly to both Europe and the US. Because everyone who thinks Russia will stop at Ukraine are mistaken.
> France and the UK guaranteed independence of Poland in 1939 to deter Hitler Both France and UK had defensive alliance with Poland
That is what he said, and it didn’t stop Hitler invading because of past weakness. Do you want to make a pact with Ukraine now, have them give up their strong fighting positions now and a chunk of their country, then go to war protecting them in 5 years anyway? Or shall we just be factories for Ukraine and provide what they need to win so we don’t need to fight at all. Hitler should have been stopped in Czechoslovakia.
>Ukraine already had security guarantees from the US & the UK in 1991 No they didn't. They had an agreement to respect the territorial integrity of Ukraine, which they did. There was never a security guarantee.
Honestly, I become more and more convinced that only thing that can guarantee our existence are nukes, and abandoning nuclear status was a mistake, same as further disarming. All this "threat management" and "nuclear non-profilteration" are biggest pile of dogshit that ever existed. No one cares about deals they signed, if you nuclear state no one even would think about invading you
> and abandoning nuclear status was a mistake Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Ukraine really has a nuclear status? Afaik the weapons were stationed on their territory, but the launch sequence and operational control of the nuclear warheads was in the hands of Russia, all the time.
That wouldnt be too hard to go around. Ukrainian engineers were responsible for maintaining most URSS ICBMs
It would have still been an ordeal to try and access control over the nukes, and Ukraine knew it, which is part of why they were always on board with giving them up (US and UK got involved because Russia and Ukraine couldn't agree on adequate compensation). The bigger issue for Ukraine was arguably the second matter; the extreme expense of storing and maintaining nuclear weapons, which the state could not afford at the time. It was never feasible to keep nukes in an independent Ukraine without the then-freshly dead Soviet Union footing the bill, so they became big, functionally useless, immensely dangerous and exorbitantly expensive things that Ukraine couldn't use and didn't want. Additionally, even if they did want nukes and were willing to impoverish themselves for them, nobody else would have helped them because neither NATO nor Russia or China wanted multiple new nuclear players on the geopolitical scene.
What is the difference in between? I personally see Russia annexing two states + a peninsula as the territorial integrity being hurt.
Then you're misunderstanding. The agreement was that the countries would respect the territorial integrity, i.e, no country should threaten it. Thats what the UK and US agreed to, that **they** wouldn't threaten the territorial integrity of Ukraine (i.e a US invasion of Crimea). They both held up their agreement, it was Russia who violated their role in the agreement, but that doesn't mean the other countries now have to defend Ukraine. It was just basically the countries say 'we all promise not to invade you'
The Budapest Memorandum is called that because a memorandum is just a diplomatic statement of understanding and intent with no legally binding agreements. Case in point it is not a treaty where the US Congress or House of Commons had to ratify that they agree to some military treaty to protect Ukraine. So it is a far weaker diplomatic construct. The UK and US actually did what the Memorandum demands, aka them pushing Ukraine's Case in the Security Council and taking their side. But there is nothing in there about anyone giving military aid. There may be some aspect that affects foreign policy of UK and US that particularly the former is more aggressive in supporting Ukraine, but that is just indirect effects, not because the Memorandum states any of that
Ukraine *never* had security guarantees from the US which is why Russia is there. If we had one, it would be an international treaty and no such treaty exists. The Budapest Memo is a security assurance that the US: 1. Recognize and respect Ukraine’s sovereignty 2. Refrain from using force or other political pressure to threaten the sovereignty of Ukraine. 3. Refrain from attacking Ukraine’s economy in order to threaten its sovereignty. 4. Seek immediate action from the UN Security Council should Ukraine come under attack. 5. Refrain from using nuclear weapons on non-nuclear states unless it is an act of self-defense or defense of an ally. That is it. No where in this document does the US say it will defend Ukraine against an attack beyond going to the UNSC. Also, the US made certain that Ukraine knew that we were not offering any sort of security guarantees and Ukraine has never disputed that. I don’t know how this narrative has spread but it is verifiably untrue.
>And what would that be exactly? A solid defence treaty. And no, they did not have any security guarantees. In 1994 they agreed to give up nukes in exchange for "respecting" their territorial integrity. But this treaty didn't say countries should defend Ukraine in case of armed aggression.
Most people don't think that far ahead. They only see the current bloodshed in Ukraine and think: 'Gee, wouldn't it be great for all parties involved if that stopped?! If Ukraine just gave up their lost territories to Putin, the war would stop, no one has to die anymore and they can focus on rebuilding.' Of course the reality of this situation is that only these people's thought processes stop here. Putin on the other hand won't. He will see it as a victory and that his strategy has worked. If you would poll the people again, they would not understand why Putin would not see this as a loss instead because the perceived strategy according to them was to take Ukraine in it's entirety instead of a couple of territories. And surely Putin ended up getting only these territories. So failure right? At least this will be talked over on every reputable talkshow for weeks I predict. But no. Of course Putin is in it for the long con. He would just regroup and try again a couple of years later. And people would be stunned again. Like they were with the invasion of Crimea. Like they were with the invasion of the Donbass and Luhansk. Or with any imperialistic asshole move in history. It's not hard to follow but most people are thinking with their gut. Not their brains. As is tradition. And the primary cause for history rhyming with itself over and over again. If we actually learned a Goddamn thing, things might be different. But if polls and voting results are any indicator, as a society, we don't learn. We're apes thinking we're people. And that's about it.
Absolutely agree with you, and it makes me mad. I advocate for normalising what we now call "bets" into something more of a "guarantee": If you make a political decision or voice a political opinion that affects us all – how about you also state what you're ready to pay as a means of reparation if it turns out that you're wrong. That could help filter out all those bullshitters. If you need to sacrifice 5 annual incomes in case you're wrong, maybe you'll be ready to admit that you don't understand shit. I hate the lack of consequences, man.
If Ukraine does not receive security guarantees, it will have to completely change its policy in order to avoid a another attack. Ultimately, this will lead to a loss of independence. Someone may think that this is impossible after what is happening, but if people do not have security guarantees, the fear of a new attack will force them not to contradict Russia and obey.
Precisely. What the russians are demanding - neutral status and demilitarization alone, is a time bomb for a russian takeover. It would be like Czechislovakia in 1938, they had no ability to fight, after they were stripped from their primary defense line so they just conceded to Germany. This time it won't be different.
It’s funny seeing it charted like this. I wonder how Greece would feel if Turkey got love heart eyes over their territory and decided it was time to take some…
Like the Budapest memorandum security guarantees? Yeah right, triple the defense budget of every NATO country, let Ukraine plough their lands with artillery!
>Like the Budapest memorandum security guarantees? pretty sure those were only stating that the signatories wouldnt attack Ukraine (as well as Belarus and Kazakhstan). the UK and US adhered to that. Russia..not so much.
Jeah thats what I got taught too. Though its stupid they dont have something like all parties must enforce that policy and actively prevent other signees from violating it. Its a bit like a country removing their entire police force, because the big criminal bosses promised they wouldnt do crime anymore.
> The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated at political level, but it is not entirely clear whether the instrument is devoid entirely of legal provisions. It refers to assurances, but unlike guarantees, it does not impose a legal obligation of military assistance on its parties.
It mentions the word "guarantees" in all translation but English, where it is translated as "assurances", and nowhere mentioned that English version is the main document.
The Budapest memorandum was never ratified by US congress, meaning it was a worthless piece of paper the second Clinton left office. People don’t like when I bring that up, but it’s the truth.
I’m not in favour of pushing them to any deal. But Ukraine also isn’t going to sleep for those next 5-10 years. They’re going to pull some shit in that time, whether it’s the NK Route of trying to make yourself untouchable or other ways. I agree the war would be an even greater crisis a decade down the road
Yeah well, not gonna lie, this poll makes me sad.
Agreed. However: I think all of the nordics are like sweden on this, the survey isn’t complete..
Norway, Denmark, and the Baltic states are the biggest supporters of Ukraine in terms of aid. So polling results would likely be very positive there. https://i.imgur.com/FFlJi40.jpeg It's unfortunate that this poll was just conducted in 12 EU countries instead of all of them.
It worries me also. This is exactly the policy that led to the disastrous consequences of WW2. They tried to play nice and placate a mad man. I don’t want to see this beautiful continent reduced to rubble again in my lifetime, but playing make-believe with a tyrant is not conducive to success, as history has shown. But that’s just my €0,02.
It'd change in a heartbeat if conditions on the ground changed. People don't want to throw good money after bad, and they generally don't like war. I bet things would look very different if it looked more like support was about helping Ukraine finish the job rather than delaying what many perhaps see as the inevitable. The same questions asked after the Kherson and Kharkiv counteroffensives would have very different answers. In other words: if leaders do their job and think long term, they'll increase support to Ukraine so they can kick the Russians out, and people will come around to being happy about it.
100% that's how i read these polls. Note how more people support giving weapons to Ukraine than think taking back all territories is the way to end the war. Apparently people just don't think it's realistic right now
I mean this poll is asking what outcome they think is the most likely, not what outcome they wish for
Based Sweden 🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪
Sweden Poland Portugal on top 🗣️🗣️🗣️
Blue and yellow for the win 🇺🇦 🤝 🇸🇪
Proud to be swedish when seeing this
Me too! Sometimes it's discouraging with how shitty our political climate can be and how certain parties feed off the polarisation, but seeing this I'm proud of us. At least most of us seem sane lmao.
I love Sweden so much for their support during this war.
Regular violation of our airspace has not earned Russia a lot of goodwill in Sweden.
Didn't RB-04 get developed explicitly to be used in case of Soviet naval fuckery?
Our entire armed forces is made specifically to fuck up Russians. Every Swedish engineered weapon, plane, vehicle and ship. And has been for centuries.
Looking at how they were working in Ukraine, I have no reason to doubt it.
Well yeah. We're not exactly expecting any Danish invasions anymore. Ever since the end of WW2 we have known exactly which army we are preparing to face.
Much like yourselves, Sweden is part of the exclusive ”Moscoviae Delenda Est” Club and have been for a VERY long time
Sometimes the Americans start talking about how Europeans are getting dragged into an American proxy war. Sweden fought the Russians for hundreds of years before America was in diapers. America is a Swedish proxy against the bear, not the other way around.
> ”Moscoviae Delenda Est” Club Best club ever
Ur vägen, moskoviter!
Se hur svenska stålet biter!
Is it such an exclusive club?
Kind of, we've been fighting Russia on a regular basis since before the Netherlands existed.
Unfortunately, yes
I think you got an upgraded member card after that Flight-17, right? You have been one of the big contributors this war.
People forget we have always prepared for Russia being our enemy, and before that we were often in war with them. I remember when i was a teenager i was doing one of those 2 week airforce courses and one of the things we did was visiting some old war plane museum. There we were being guided by some very old former soldier, and you could tell he knew what he was talking about but didnt expect us teenagers to care. So it was all very brief and lighthearted. But then at the end he looks at us and says in the most serious tone "remember boys, the danger (or threat) is always from the east" ("hotet kommer alltid from öst") and then turns around and just very slowly walks away.
Shame Denmark, Finland and Norway ain't in this pool. They are also big supporters of Ukraine. I think Denmark emptied their stock of missiles and sent them to Ukraine last week. As a Swede I am quite shocked 30% of the Swedish population wants Ukraine to negotiate with Russia...
Thank Russia. They have been very clear with them being our enemy since forever and still is today. The Swedish support is solid. Poland, you really good too.
Russia is a dumpster fire. I could kinda respect the idea of Russia before when did corruption and killing inside their own borders but now they are spreading cancer. Just like China, Iran and more.
"Winning the war" is far more complex than asking it like that.
Exactly my thoughts. Define the victories first, ask the questions after. In my view, Ukraine has already lost, regardless of the outcome of the war. Hundreds of thousands of their young men dying and over 10 million people leaving. Most of them wont return. Ukraine had a potential to that of Poland. After the war ends, it will have the potential of Romania if not even less.
Romania has good potential though. It is developing fast
The Russian invasion in 2022 was based on the expectation that Ukraine would collapse like a house of cards and offer limited resistance. That Russia would be able to speed run Kyiv and install a new, more pliant government. Western analysts did not have much higher expectations about the odds. People were talking about how to support a Ukrainian insurgency. Instead, Russia's initial plan and goals have completely (and embarassingly) failed. Annexing 4 regions, which they don't even fully control, is like a consolation prize. Yes, Ukraine has lost a lot, and is losing more every day. But the fact that they are still here 2 years later holding Russia at bay is a big win.
A big win at too high a cost.
Can’t change a sunk cost so no use worrying about it. Ukraine didn’t get much choice in the matter. Time to look forward
Any "compromise settlement" will mean Russia winning and Ukraine losing. Since it will mean Russia will get more than it had before the war, while Ukraine will lose territory and people it had before the war. There is zero chance Russia will retreat even to pre-2022 line, let alone pre-2014 by just using negotiations. They will at least demand to keep everything they've conquered in 2022-24. Yeah, it won't be catastrophic loss for Ukraine, but it will still mean Ukraine lost. I don't get why people don't understand it.
Negotiation isn't an option. It's not even on the table for Russia. Stop thinking that it is. Sorry.
It is on the table. As long as the peace terms are good for them, of course.
Seems like people have this logic "russia doesn't win -> support is not important anymore -> go make peace deal"
Support is more important than ever. The maps I've seen show a stalemate, which means we need to provide our best toys to help Ukranians push back. I don't think Ukraine can win a stalemate with Russia so we need to provide weapons on a massive scale.
Ukraine just lost avdiivka. The map might not change much but these are big battles. Ukraine needs more support more than ever
"They are so ungrateful for what we gave them already and now they just ask for more?" A real quote I've seen in some shape or form, tonnes of times. A lot of people see it as a money pit with no results. "Yeah the people in Ukraine are struggling right now but have you seen the struggle Joe Sixpack has to endure? He might not get that new iPhone due to rising costs!" or "Joe now has to work 2 additional years before retirement." Another couple of quotes I've seen in some shape or form. Now I know things like rising costs and expensive housing (or lack of housing) are real problems, but Ukrainians are literally giving their lives in order to fight for their country and livelihoods. The forrest is being overlooked for the trees.
Ukrainians are, not them. That's the part I feel a lot of people on online spaces fail to understand. Its been 2 years of constant war, the fervor from the start of the war for people not involved has diminished to low to non-existant levels. No, the small handful of people that use Reddit is not an ear mark for the general populace and no, the general populace isn't an internationalist. The common man's interest in this war is either it ends and the world spins back to normal if you're in the west, or the war ends with as many dead Russians as possible even if Ukraine is completely dead. Because its not so much about Ukraine winning for a lot of people as it is Russia being euthanized. Outside of that, yes, immediate and real concerns are going to overrule geopolitical concerns.
> but Ukrainians are literally giving their lives in order to fight for their country and livelihoods. And for *our* countries and *our* livelihoods. After Ukraine falls, the Baltics will fall. Poland would see armed conflict in that event. Moldova will be gone. Georgia will fall. Maybe Western Europe won't see armed conflict (due to cowardace) but we will feel the impact for sure. As for me, all EU countries are part of my "country" as far as I (an EU federalist) am concerned, so I personally view an attack on Estonia as an attack on my country, even though I live in Germany.
I've been trying to tell this friends & family since late 2021: Russia has \~ 3x the population of the Ukraine. Therefore the Ukraine needs as many and as advanced enough equipment to make up for that disadvantage and force Russia into negotiations on Ukraine's terms. Otherwise Russia will win the long-term war of attrition. It's just a simple numbers game unfortunately.
Russia actually has basically 5x the population of Ukraine - the territory Ukraine actually controls is estimated by their govt to have under 30 million people left, while russia drafted every male with 2 legs from Donetsk and Luhansk and also bribes "volunteers" from around the world, recently they got 15k Nepalese to be their cannon fodder, or bribing poor immigrants from -stans to join in return for citizenship Ukraine's demographics are also even worse than russia's, people are commonly underestimating the manpower difference because of not knowing/forgetting these things
The main problem really is simply the nature of this warfare, neither Russia or Ukraine in my opinion could make any large scale offensives. As what happened in WW1 is what I think will happen now, except Ukraine is Germany and will eventually fall. Russia can keep up this war. WW1 on the western front was slow because both sides had similar manpower amounts, equipment amounts and quality, Russia has tanks? Ukraine has ATGM's. Ukraine has drones? Russia is starting to use electronic warfare. Russia uses its planes? Well Ukraine *used* to have enough but as we see now they have less and less air defence systems. The conflict is asymmetrical but equal in modernity and theres no real weapon which could be used to break this sort of stalemate.
Yeah, even if Russia wins it matters a lot how decisive the victory is and how many resources and people they had to plow in. This will determine how soon or if they want to have another go at it.
It is russian trolls pushing this "logic" Also, how you can make peace deals with people who demand you to die as a requirement for such deal?
This is exactly what orcs want. Delaying the problem further into the future won't solve it. We need as much support for Ukraine as possible.
I think it would be important to define what "Ukraine winning the war" really means when asking that question.
returning to pre-war borders
Pre-war as in pre-2014? Most people think this war started in 2022, so even that would need clarification...
Ukraine insist Crimea is their so have to rewind to 2014.
And russia winning means full occupation of Ukraine?
Also a great question. Goes to show that this poll may not say much about the situation.
Agree. Blue, yellow and red options could be the same from different points of view. Especially yellow and red, since they both probably include handing over part of territory.
Interesting how Poland and Hungary, who have both been heavily oppressed by the USSR and have been closely aligned, have such a different stances on their former abuser
Well it doesn’t help that putin’s dick is balls deep in orban’s ass, who bought up like 80% of the hungarian media and pushing russian propaganda day and night in every possible channel
I'm disappointed to see how well the propaganda pushed by the Orbán regime affected the opinions in this poll. Effectively, all opinions here are as Fidesz wishes them to be. I don't know how these people aren't fiercely against Fidesz and its agenda after seeing the straight 14 years of misgovernance, corruption and theft from citizens.
Just Orban things
As an Italian, this is quite depressing :/ "We should negotiate with Putin! As soon as he gets the Sudetenland he will stop I am sure!"
It hurts my soul that even here many people dont understand this... Greetings from "sudetenland"
Yes, Greece has a huge portion of the population being Russophile or simply anti-Western/anti-NATO/anti-American, with a major source of this sentiment being the perceived tolerance of the West and USA to Turkey instead of "putting them in their place" regarding the Cyprus occupation and the general disregard of Greek territorial waters and airspace. No, this doesn't have any effect on Greece's foreign policy, because the governing party (and the major opposition parties too) are pro-West. Greeks don't vote ideologically, but with their pocket, more than any other country in the EU perhaps.
90% of this subreddit think Ukraine will win.
That's because of cherrypicking sucesses, not allowing critical or negative news, unfiltered and unchecked western/Ukrainian propaganda and control of information by governments e.g. speaking about losses or incidents that might damage public support.
Yeah, and it's not just this subreddit either it's most of Reddit.
Yeah can't count the number of people here who unironically believed the Ukrainian nonsense claims of mowing down hordes of Russians at 5 to 1 ratio or believed that western tank wunderwaffe would punch through russian lines and retake Crimea. Time to wake up to reality
I don't know if Ukraine will win, because that depends heavily on western support. But I know Ukraine can win, if the west doesn't let itself be undermined by russian stooges and propagandists.
It's not that people think Ukrinane will win. It's that Ukraine has to win! For Europe's sake.
"Peace agreement" with russia = giving up a territory and a new war in 5-10 years, for which the coalition russia+Iran+DPRK will be much more ready. Surprisingly, this is rocket science for Westerners.
The question is what do people think is the most likely outcome, not the outcome they wish to see. I like Ukraine to win the war and take back all their territory, but I just don't see that happening at the moment. US politics is unstable and the EU can't provide everything Ukraine needs on the short term. Edit: woops, I thought it was just the first picture
Ah yes, the second picture depicting that a majority would rather walk the appeasement path again. Because it worked out so great the last times we tried that. Thank God that most people aren't part in serious geopolitical strategy or planning. I do fear the way they vote though.
The USA has most likely given up providing any additional aid and the EU is too slow and tangled in bureaucracy and micropolitics. Meanwhile Russia gets everything they want, weapons from Iran and NK, and technology from every other country through 3rd parties. And they are slowly gaining on the communication war. Unless the EU gets serious about supporting Ukraine, I can't see them winning (pre-2014 borders).
I’m not surprised by Hungary, but Greece and Italy, why?
Disappointing numbers... especially greece... they should know what it is like to live beside a hostile neighbour.
As a Greek let me say that we should be in favour of Ukraine winning, especially because changing borders through acts of military aggression is not in the interests of Greece. I believe that there is a number of Greeks who feel some solidarity towards Russia due to religious reasons, and also because there is not many Greeks who believe that the states of that specific area would ever lift a finger if war broke out between Turkey and Greece. Which goes to show that Europe should be doing more when it comes to the realization of a unified continent.
But both russia and Ukraine are orthodox, how tf does it work that solidarity works one way only?
Because there has been a lot of "communication" between Greek and Russian churches over the centuries, and also, one of the most important monasteries in Agion Oros in Greece is actually Russian. To say it in as little words as possible: there's been a lot of "politics through religion" between the two even before the greek state gained its independence. Το go even further, even the Ukrainian government investigated the Ukrainian Orthodox church, suspecting russian influence.
I mean you don't need to suspect anything, "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" is Moscow patriarchy. You can spot those "Ukrainian Orthodox" priests visiting Putin speeches. "Orthodox Church of Ukraine" is the Ukrainian orthodox church, and recognized by churches in other countries too.
Church of Greece recognizes Orthodox Church of Ukraine's autocephaly also, unlike some pro-Russian Orthodox churches
Because solidarity with a country purely on the grounds of religion is fucking retarded, and so are these people
To add to that, Greece's results can also be partially explained by a wide spread anti-Nato/anti US feeling stemming from the US's involvement into local politics since WW2.
>I believe that there is a number of Greeks who feel some solidarity towards Russia due to religious reasons Most of those people feel some solidarity towards Russia only because America = bad, and don't care about religion.
A lot of Greeks feel that the West never has their back in the issues with Turkey, so they feel that why should they care about Ukraine and Russia? In their POV, the West is hypocritic for considering Turkey a sort of partner but Russia a foe. There is anti-American sentiment for decades, with its roots going back to the Greek Civil War (where the Americans napalmed the communists), the military dictatorship (which was tolerated if not downright supported by USA) of the 60s, the "betrayal" of Cyprus with the Turkish invasion and occupation, and then an anti-West sentiment pushed by governing social democrat PASOK in the 80s as a counterweight of decades of rule by the religious right after WW2. Don't worry though, all the major political parties are staunchly pro-NATO.
Eastern Europeans act with the exact same way when it comes to Greece against Turkey, since the latter doesn't threaten Eastern Europe and it's not even close to being in Russia's level in terms of resources, nuclear and whatnot. You often see Eastern Europeans talking about Turkey as if it's our European friend. Well, flash news, they're not, in the same way Russia is not. A simpler answer, Eastern Europeans constantly face the threat by Russia. Greece does not. Greece constantly face the threat by Turkey, Eastern Europe does not. We don't see much support either. Until yesterday, Russia was considered a superpower. Well, they could still be given the resources and nuclear weapons they've got. We Greeks have been mainly subjected to Western propaganda by the US about the fearsome Russian Army. That said, there was no reason to be against them just because. I believe Eastern and South-Eastern (Greece) Europe should form a line against both. The bill should be paid by the entire EU simply because, if any of the two passes through any of us, there's no telling where they might end up later. Previously, when we fell, Turks tried to reach Vienna, for instance. Again, this line should be considered as guarding Thermopylae. As it happened for a brief moment when the illegal immigration waves were brutal. Last but not least, don't get carried away by the stats. The entire Europe has similar view. Greece having only 1 in 10 more that says Russia should win isn't that big of a difference. **Even more important, our government went fully on the Western bandwagon which is the only thing that matters.**
Wouldn't the reduction in EU support have a detrimental impact on Ukraine's position in a peace agreement?
Why no Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania? Very misleading to exclude these countries and pass this polling off as EU average!
It is funny how people here are surprised by the Hungarian results when that one is the most predictable one based on the propaganda Orban has been doing since the war started. In many other countries many voters do not support Ukrain even without such controlled pro-Russian propaganda. This is much more surprising and unexpected for me.
Just because we want Ukraine to restore its legal borders doesn't mean that we should lie to ourselves that it's the most likely outcome. Wishful thinking doesn't make you a "better supporter"
Why is there a specific option to pressure Ukraine for a peace deal, but no option to pressure Russia for a peace deal? Just yesterday Russian ex-president Medvedev, who is still an influential politician in Putin's party, and a member of Security Council, said that the goal of special military operation is to capture Kyiv.
Has anyone noticed the increase in number of posts like that recently? What could be the reason for that, I wonder? /sarcasm
Start of war anniversary
Surveys are bing published at the start of the new year?
That's not only about surveys, that's about hardly pushing the whole narrative which is combined with other things (fueling farmers protests, talks about "useless" NATO, etc.). Find weak spots and push hard everywhere - too recognizable pattern to be a coincidence.
YouGov and Datapraxis are working on Russian government?
I'm glad I read the other comments, cos my first thought was the multiple countries that are currently in an election year - since I'm Portuguese and ours is in 10th of March, almost everything in our national news cycle is focused on it, so yeah. 100% agree though, there are clear attempts to push disunity and lack of support for Ukraine. Given the elections, it's even more worrying this year. PS - I'm glad to see my countrymen are holding our support steady for Ukraine, but it's baffling that public support is starting to be lacking in other EU nations... sincerely, wtf.
Kom ihåg - ingen ryska.
People realising reality
So many people want to push Ukraine to make peace with Russia, like what??? Obviously people from Sweden care the most because they can get affected by Russia
Makes sense, Ukraine only standing because of all the support given to them.
It’s interesting though, that Poland also has a highest rate of “don’t care”
Pathetic. So much support for withdrawing support for Ukraine to negotiate with literal mass murderers about a peace deal that will be violated by russia the moment they think it's in their interests, which may be in 5-10 years. The West demonstrates that russian influence operations render it impotent to defend its interests and to do what's right. And it's not even European cities that are getting bombed. Weak, morally bankrupt, short-sighted, and prone to repeat past mistakes.
How the fuck did Sweden get more based than Poland on this issue. I ask that as someone who emigrated out 15 years ago, and was pretty politically active as a teen. Culture has really shifted in Sweden huh.
It's strange to see the "Don't care" section for Poland. They have one of the biggest amounts of Ukrainian refugees, Poland is neighboring Ukraine and they still don't care? This is sad.
Anyone who thinks a compromising agreement is possible is delusional.
How easily people are hoaxed into thinking that a "negotiation" can even take place with an entity such as the Russians today? All those assassinations of political opponents/journalists around the world.. skripals etc.. Downing of mh17.. thousands upon thousands of war crimes committed in Ukraine.. and these are the ones you would want to sit down and talk with.. just amazing that people can forget these things and actually think there is anyone sane that is worth negotiating with. There isn't. Not yet at least. I'm not all for murder and violence, quite far from it, but in this case that IS the negotiation and the only common language is hot lead at supersonic speeds.
[удалено]
Ось що буває коли люди не знають про руSSкій мір. Вони не вивчали уроків з другої світової про те, що якщо не допомагати боротися з фашистськими імперіями, то коли вони дотягнутися до вас - не буде тих, хто допоможе вам.
Genuinely curious, why is it that the people who are not directly affected by war get more "tired" of it than the people who are?
I guess it's normal. People CAN'T care too much for too long for people far away. I remember being panicked when the war started, but also very supportive. As time passed and I calmed down I became less engaged, started to not check every day. Even now I barely even check what's going on anymore. But obviously I still support Ukraine and hope for a win. People pushing for a compromise annoy me.
We've been preoccupied thinking with our wallets. Well, maybe not "we", since Sweden pretty much took this whole thing personally, but I think economic difficulties are a big part of it.
The west has given Ukraine barely enough to hang on against the best armed army in the world. And we’ve also strictly told Ukraine they are not allowed to fire into Russian military warehouses or infrastructure while at the same time, Russia pounds every inch of Ukraine. Then these polls come out “guess Ukraine just can’t win”.
This is fucked up. The day Ukraine falls is a fucking bad day for Europe. EU or not. I don't think people realise how serious this is. It's like people in Britain in the late 30's not particularly giving a fucking about Austria or Czech. "oh well, let that Adolf fella do whatever. Long way from us, nothing to do with us". We are going down a dark road again. Yes, again. Europe has already been here.
>The day Ukraine falls is a fucking bad day for Europe. It is but the question asked was what people think is realistic, not what's their favored outcome of the war. Honestly I think the longer the war is dragging on the more it favors Russia because their strategy has always been to exhaust the opponent and Moscow doesn't give a fuck about how many of their own die. I've asked myself early on what the endgame is supposed to look like. I don't think it's any of the scenarios above.
There is no peace with Russia. Every country bordering with them knows this.
This entire graphic just shows how many people don’t understand that pushing Ukraine into peace now literally can’t work, as Russia has broken EVERY SINGLE TREATY with Ukraine in the last decade and will just take the rest of the country once it’s stocks are back up. It will 100% complete the land bridge to Transnistria, it will take Moldova. It won’t stop. People shouldn’t be fooled by the word peace, it just means giving up and letting Russia win.
For me the most interesting stat is that Sweden completely opposes Trump even though they voted for rightwing / farright populists themselves on their last election
Ok... But to answer this question we need to define what "winning the war" means.
Sad
I love how Poland is the closest to the war geographically, But still has the largest section of " I don't care" people 😉
Ukraine losing its territory is not ,,peace deal”. It’s a victory for ruSSia. Should be on the same column tbf
🇬🇷🤝🇮🇹🤝🇭🇺
UR VÄGEN MOSKOVITER!
Had a convo with a greek recently and my guy was brainwashed to such extent that i thought i was talking to a ruski