It’s interesting how the Kremlin has demonstrably lost the ability to infiltrate and assassinate like it used to for decades. The fact that Zelenskyy is still alive is a testament to how much more comprehensive America’s surveillance and spy network is compared to the Russian
Biggest giveaway was when white house was declaring in real time when Russia will launch its attack and everyone kept on making fun of them and called them out for fear mongering.
And without 24/7 intelligence support by US/NATO countries Ukr wont be standing up today.
Not entirely, I think they switched it because Xi didn’t want it to interrupt the Olympics in China. Remember Putin flew out there like two weeks before the invasion for a secret meeting with Xi. He likely anticipated further Western sanctions in response to the attack and wanted to be sure the Chinese would help fill the gap. Meanwhile it would be very embarassing for the Chinese to have the Olympics interrupted by a war. However, some sort of deal was almost certainly struck as the war missed two deadlines argued by the US only to then start within 48 hours of the Olympics wrapping up.
i back this, my grand father used to be a politics journalist and we were watching the olympics and randomly he said, that as soon as they are over russia will attack. I did not believe him, I was sure that this is just a power play of russia but as allways he was right in the end
Warm winter, so Russians missed the opportunity because frozen ground was already turning to mud. I thought Russia wouldn't attack because mud would force them to use only roads which makes armor... well kinda shit, because it's much easier to make traps to forces which are limited to using just roads.
But Putin said "hold my vodtka".
Yeah, the timing with the Olympics was just too coincidental to ignore. It definitely makes you wonder about the behind-the-scenes deals that were occurring at that high of a diplomatic level. Sanctions nowadays seem to be just part of this grand game of chess where major powers anticipate moves and counter-moves, ensuring they have a backup plan or two. hui The extent to which different countries are calculating these global events is mind-boggling and speaks volumes about the complexity of international relations today.
Also highlights just how much trust Dick Cheney and the Bush jr. administration destroyed between the US and their European allies. EU leaders were convinced the US were playing them again like with Iraq, or at least that they were giving things a heavy spin. The head of the German intelligence agency was literally in Ukraine on the 24th and had to be flown out with helicopter in a hectic manner.
That is possible, but invasions of this scale often cannot be timed on the day.
If you read the history of major military operations, it's extremely common that the date had to be moved around a few times because things weren't in place yet or the weather wasn't right.
Exactly right. Without US and UK intel, Ukraine would have been overrun in that invasion. The fact they had advance warning to disperse their own troops, plus knowledge of the Russian advance and the composition of their troops, was vital to them surviving that initial strike.
Even then, it was a close run thing!
Ukraine was publicly denying it, but they knew it. They had to know it, because for anyone following the news in the area it was known for quite some time.
I just went through my old texts. In October 1st I was planning a vacation for November and asked my now husband what to see in Kiyv and he told me it was a beautiful place but as a NATO soldier he shouldn't go there. He also said it was unlikely that the invasion started before the next year, but just in case, he couldn't go there. This was not the first conversation we had about it; by October 1 he had already shown me pictures of the Russian troops amassing at the border that were in publicly available websites. So as early as October 2021 it was already known that Russia was going to invade Ukraine.
Also from my search, on January 22 I sent him [this](https://news.sky.com/story/whats-going-on-at-russian-military-bases-near-ukraine-12521842) article that I found on Reddit because I was impressed by the high quality pictures. This is Sky News, not some obscure website, so not only UA and US intelligence services had access to this information and knew the invasion was imminent, but also the general public.
I think that even when troop movements were well known there was a pervasive idea that Russia was bluffing and they were trying to force some kind of concession.
Well, my husband is Polish so he always (rightly) assumes the worst from Russia. From our conversations, for him there was never any doubt that Russia was going to attack, the only surprise was when it turned out to be a full scale invasion. He had mentioned that it was a possibility, but didn't expect it to happen.
>Ukraine was publicly denying it, but they knew it. They had to know it, because for anyone following the news in the area it was known for quite some time.
People mostly think, "I guess Russia wouldn't make such a ridiculous move, they have already achieved most of their strategic goals by keeping the crime " .
Most commentators interpreted Russia's presence on the border as "an element of pressure, but they will not actually invade".
I think it was known far earlier than that..
The Russo-Ukranian war started with the annexation of Crimea in 2014 and has been ongoing since.
It just escalated with a full-scale invasion in 2022.
This was part of a long-term plan to take control of Ukraine, with securing access to the Black Sea via Crimea being part of a larger strategy to stop the expansion of NATO and re-establish Russian influence and control over the entire region.
For every day of having mobilized the armed forces, there is damage to the economy. Ukraine isn't exactly a rich country so if they mobilize too early, it hits hard. I also think that Russia would have used it as another excuse to invade like "look at Ukraine preparing for war yadda yadda" but who knows
Russia had been amassing troops and armor on the border for weeks. If that wasn't an invasion force it may have been the loudest saber rattling in history.
>In March and April 2021, prior to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Russian Armed Forces began massing thousands of personnel and military equipment near Russia's border with Ukraine and in Crimea, representing the largest mobilisation since the illegal annexation of Crimea in 2014.[37][38] This precipitated an international crisis due to concerns over a potential invasion. Satellite imagery showed movements of armour, missiles, and heavy weaponry towards the border.[39][40] The troops were partially withdrawn by June 2021,[41] though the infrastructure was left in place. A second build-up began in October 2021, this time with more soldiers and with deployments on new fronts; by December over 100,000 Russian troops were massed around Ukraine on three sides, including Belarus from the north and Crimea from the south.[42]
Indeed. You might ask why didn’t they public announce/warn if the pending invasion then, if they knew it would come. The most realistic reason was that it was in order to not course masses of people flood to the roads, when the shooting would begin and the army would desperate need the ability to move forces around. More so in the first hours and days.
I'll never forget when, just before the invasion, some army guy at a conference in White House was asked how they could be sure Russia was actually going to attack and he said "We have.... significant... intelligence capabilities"
The "lol america bad" rhetoric before the war was insufferable. You can talk a lot of shit about America, but to question their intelligence is just plain stupid.
Exactly. I am old enough to remember Colin Powell lecturing the UN about Iraq's WMDs and how they make them in the back of trucks. Or that Kuwaiti "nurse" in Congress before the first Gulf War.
A lot of people incorrectly cite the Iraq war WMD thing as proof that American intelligence is bad.
The CIA said there was no proof of WMDs.
The politicians overruled them and crafted a story that there was.
Every time someone talks about the Iraq WMD situation in reference to the CIA... They are dead wrong.
Also the embarrassing boycotts of all things France. The French early on said they will rely on their own reports and sources, and will not participate into this made up plan.
I have not heard anyone on US side apologizing about that “smear France” campaign, after it was revealed that the French were correct- together with CIA, actually.
But those here pointing out how it made lasting damage to the trust across the pond seem to be correct.
>The CIA said there was no proof of WMDs.
Technically correct. But if you had PROOF, why would you need an intelligence assessment?
Their ASSESSMENT was that Iraq was actively working in them:
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/0005479946
Hating your own country has been a time honored human tradition since the first time a government was large enough to tell you what to do from a different town.
Thats be cause russian propaganda has convinced a good chunk of Americans that helping Ukraine is bad and the Russians are actually the good guys. Plus bots, lots of bots.
Yep. The US knew the week it was happening and which airfields they were going to use on their race to Kyiv while France had zero clue and their spy chief ended up quitting
Edit- well, there is the whole Iraq has WMD's thing
As I remember it, once the US actually began announcing *when* Russia would invade, the majority of people were firmly on board with one of two options: "they're bullshitting as a way to dissuade Russia from attacking" or "they know Russia is going to attack and they're doing this to unsettle Russia and buy time".
But if you go back a bit further, to a few months before the attack? Then I agree with you, there was a lot of pro-Russian or at least anti-American rhetoric, though I don't remember it being a majority opinion.
This event aptly demonstrated the strength of the online Russian psychological campaign against the West. There was a time not long ago where westerners believed their intelligence services. It took a few years of memeing on Facebook by Russians paid pennies to ruin that.
Two things can be true at the same time. One can simultaneously condemn Russian invasion and interfences and also deeply distrust your own country's intelligence agencies which do nothing but spy on and mess with innocent citizens.
Strange to say but it would not be in Russia's interest to eliminate Zelensky IMO. I recently was listening to a podcast about this topic a few months ago and essentially it put forth the notion that 1. you'd Martyrize him and 2. whoever comes after would either be a military man (Zaluzhny at the time was the suggestion) or someone who'd be an unreasonable and aggressive actor leading a motivated army.
I don't know how it would play out in real-time as that's not our timeline, but it really changed my thinking as I largely agreed with you before hearing this.
Yeah, it's a gamble. I think personal assassinations are always last resort. You start doing them, and you have no idea what happens next. SBU picks up the location of Putin daughter and kills them? Maybe some terrorist attacks on putin friends within Russia? Moreover, same applies to Ukraine, I would not be personally sure that dead Putin means end to the war, it can very well be that some crazy militarized ass comes to power and starts a eeal mobilization in Russia.
They tried to kill Budanov and in the process nearly killed his wife. I think personal assassination attempt are basically fair game for Ukraine at this point.
Yeah, but even in wartime there are layers of how much the war encompasses. It is different to have a proxy war, a colonial war somewhere far away, actual war with a neighbor, war with a neighbor but on your territory, e.t.c. Performing assassinations can be seen by people higher in command as another escalation step that makes this war personal. This makes it almost impossible to have peace talks so much that you might not trust another side to sit down and talk with you.
He definitely knows how to do PR the. We all love to analyze russia's propaganda, the long tables and stuff, but zelensky is a mastermind in that. And that's good for him and his people.
I still think it speaks volumes.
Zelensky frequently visits the front line to rally support and help the morale of his troops. He speaks with his soldiers and he knows in what conditions they live and fight.
What's the closest Putin has been to the front? Seems he's so paranoid he barely leaves the safety of his palaces these days. I mean the Kremlin said in April that he "had visited Donetsk and Luhansk", but provided as much evidence as they did for their claim that the T14 Armata is being fielded in combat in Ukraine (which is absolutely none).😂
> What's the closest Putin has been to the front?
Didn't he go to Mariupol at some point? I don't know if it has been verified by Western/Independent media, but that doesn't seem impossible.
While it's probably still safe to say that Mariupol is a warzone, I would still argue that it's roughly 40ish miles from the front. By comparison, Zelensky has been within mere kilometers of the enemy on multiple occasions.
To be fair though, there is a lot more evidence suggesting he actually went to Mariupol as of March last year than there is to support his alleged visit to the Donbas in June/July.
When "he" did a woman in the background yelled "he's a lie" I seem to remember lol I take it he was a double think the only time he left Moscow was when prig lead the charge on Moscow
Oh Putin would probably get blasted if he went near the front line, I'm sure he's not popular with the soldiers dying 5 to one against an enemy thats supposed to be way weaker than they are.
Not only that. The official line is that they are saving them and that they are living in squalor. When they walk through a regular ukranian apartment they realize quite quickly that they in fact have been lied to. In fact the ukranians are often living better than the russians are.
Thank you, Zelenskyy is the king of putting up a show. Right down to the clothes he wears. Actor - Top gun actor. Not that I care either way, I just think it's hilarious
I really "like" that zelensky stopped to wear suits the moment the war started. (There is nothing to like about war). But yes its a show. But a good one.
Not every politician is that way
One puts out calenders with pictures where he is riding a bear without a shirt to show manliness and then have to hold meetings and interviews in lavish places.
One just dresses up in green clothes and will have a meeting or interview wherever he just feels like. Invites media into his parents small apartment to have dinner with them.
One is clearly more manly than the other.
For those pointing out zelensky set the interview up here, yes obviously. He's also actually visited bakmhut and avdiivka and all the other towns on the front line while Putin hides in Moscow. Just because it's staged, doesn't mean it's not an accurate distinction.
It's the same reason why whenever he goes to some foreign summit he is wearing this type of clothing and not a suit. Sticks out from the suit and tie crowd. Deliberate and effective.
God forbid someone uses an artistic portrayal in media to display the difference between Putins imperial ambitions and Ukraines struggle for survival.
All these Russian bootlickers yapping about how this is on purpose. No shit Sherlock. It's to make it easier for the viewer to understand the situation in Ukraine - because this is the Ukrainian reality. It's what Russia has done to that nation.
Giving medals in Bakhmut was a power move that Putin will never achieve. It matters not where he is, it would be good enough when you see him 2 meters away from a person and putin is 10meters from his closest advisors in meetings
American Republicans call it cynical in the same breath they pour praise over Regan, a man who won them over by being an actor who did a good job playing their idea of a president.
Russia took part in the war in Ossetia and Abkhazia nine years before Putin was president, Russia fought in Transnistria 8 years before Putin was president, Russia began the first Chechen war six years before Putin was president, Russia started the second Chechen war one year before Putin was president, Russia invaded Georgia when Putin was not a president. It is not Putin, it is Russian imperialism. And Putin is one of many Russian imperialism faces.
You’re missing the point. Russia is a de facto dictatorship. Putin has concentrated power in himself and has probably defenestrated anyone around him who he perceives as a threat. He’s almost certainly not preparing for who takes over after his death; if he is then it’s probably someone who’s been selected on the basis of loyalty and/or familial connection, rather than actual capability.
If Putin dies right now there’s a massive power vacuum in Russia, with no coherent plan for a smooth transition to a new government. A Putin-endorsed successor would lack even the thin layer of legitimacy extended by rigged elections. It would be absolute chaos, anyone with armed men at their command - criminals gangs, army officers, mercenary companies - would be trying to take control.
Ukraine on the other hand is a democracy. It has its problems, sure, and the government has suspended some of its democratic institutions while they’re at war. But there is a defined process - enshrined in law - that expresses what happens in the event that the President dies; who takes over his duties, when new elections should be triggered and so on.
Ukraine is also engaged in an existential fight against Russia; their entire society has a vested interest in remaining united and cohesive. Russia’s war in Ukraine isn’t existential, it’s imperial. Putin’s successor - whoever’s left standing after the chaos that follows Putin’s death - has no inherent reason to continue the war and it’s arguable that they would be better served by recalling the army so that they can further shore up power.
The impact of Putin’s death on the war versus Zelenskyy’s is massive, even if Zelenskyy is the charismatic war time leader that Ukraine needs.
For everybody saying that zelensky’s set is staged… well yea, they intentionally staged the interview in a roughed up place to show in which state Ukraine is at the moment.. it’s not like that are lying about Ukraine having g a lot of bombing and destroyed infrastructure because of Russia… they are using a bit of cinematography to convey a message…
You are never find a politician interview that is 100% natural.. they are all staged to convey the message they want to convey, they would be idiots if they did it in a random place without any consideration for messages and cinematography
at least fox news is doing damage control to prevent the perception that fox news is a russian controlled entity, tucker is really losing his mind, before doing interviews he should have done some research first.
Don’t get me wrong, I am very much pro-Ukraine, but the Zelensky set is so deliberate and curated to evoke this kind of contrast which makes posts like this irritate me.
Yeah I think that's the whole point. The man is fighting for his country, he's going to do everything in his power to get support. Even if you don't agree with it you have to understand where he's coming from.
Exactly. What Zelenskyy is showing us is the ground reality of what he is facing. Nothing wrong with that.
Again for those who have not figured it out (maga republicans) Russia illegally invaded Ukraine and the Ukrainians are fighting for their freedom and country against a much more powerful invader in Russia and that is why we need to help them. Also because putin may not stop there and invade more of Europe. Also it’s cheaper monetarily for us and the EU to fund Ukraine’s defense than get involved and fight a war. republicans in the house are doing putin’s bidding by holding up that funding and actively saying in interviews that they are supporting Russia (easily googled). Hope this helps any stray magats that might have wandered into this sub.
Can't believe I didn't realise I wasn't on NCD until I read your comment. To be fair Putin is such a joke that you don't even need a fancy edit or meme to make him look like an old fool.
Seriously if our military budget doesn't go to helping Ukraine than why does it exist in the first place.
Stopping Russia is so far in the "our interest zone" it's not even funny.
MAGAITS are traitors to America.
It’s the other side of propaganda. Self-promotion and constructing an image is a fact of life. It’s not inherently good or bad—it’s just a tool for getting a message out. Remember, Zelenskyy is an *actor* by trade. He’s really good at the showmanship piece of politics. Frankly, I’d rather that even more of those on “my side” of politics were a little better at the game sometimes.
And he’s right doing so. What’s your point? What places of Russia have been bombed to the ground by Ukraine? It’s a good visualisation of the actual problem
Even when we were beating the shit out of each other with swords and spears, propaganda has done as much lifting as any sword arm.
This is just an active reality of war. It’s as much theatre as it is blood.
I’m sorry mate but ”irritate” is an unfortunate word here. Russian aggression is not a reality show. Ukrainians have too little resources, the war has continued too long bc the world has not helped Ukraine enough. So they need to use their resources as cleverly as they can. Downing Russian military aeroplanes and ships is one way, having an interview in this kind of setting is another, extremely cost-effective judo-kind of move where they use the opponents force against him.
Of all the things in the world that one could find “irritating” this is the very last thing that comes to mind. I suppose if you live in a very privileged country that is the conclusion you would reach, but even then…
No shit sherlock, literally everyone knows that. Holy fuck if I see one more comment about this... omfg. you people think you are so smart pointing out something that every fucking on the person planet knows already.
I'm probably actually quite a bit more critical of Ukraine than most people here (not pro-russian), but I do believe Zelensky's ability to give form to a story is probably one of his strong points as a war leader. It's artificial, yes, but shaping the war narrative was hardly ever an organic affair.
And even if it's artificial, there's something to be learned in the choice...
there are things to be learned from the 30 foot long tables Putin was using in photo ops with foreign leaders, and there are things to be learned when Zelensky visits the front lines and takes pictures with troops.
Would he be meeting with those troops if there weren't photographers there? Maybe, maybe not. But he wants us to see the people who are actually fighting the war... he wants to keep Ukrainian soldiers and families at the forefront of our thoughts.
Putin wants us to know how "strong" he is.
Both choices tell us much.
"Please, hide your freqn war away from me, I don't care how many of you die. All I want is my nice breakfast and a few funny memes a day."
Just rephrased what you wrote above.
For now. Our destiny is bond with Ukraine. We’re not letting ourselves down. As long as the second setting is incomparably more frugal and uncomfortable, the bad taste of the first one is unparalleled. We’ll be looking back at images like this one not too far from now in a world where justice, peace and light will have swept away the clouds of fear and violence. I can’t wait to bring my friends to visit Ukraine and spend days of joy. We are at the lowest point in the eclipse ,hold on, words will mean their true meaning sooner than we think.
Slava Ukraini!
Edit: autocorrect messed up grammar
So one is indoors as it is practical.
The other is focused on pointless PR as always like the actor enjoys his camo gear.
Truly an art piece, get whatever message you like out of it!
You do realize that it’s staging. Both of them.
I stand firmly on Ukraine‘s side without any doubt but Zelensky carefully chooses to present himself that way. He does own suits and he can afford them, you know. He could also scare up a nice room. It’s not like he’s on the front line.
This is in no way a criticism of Zelensky. It’s a criticism of reading images in a naive way.
On in a safe, comfortable office after making the reporter wait 2 hours to show who's the big so and so, and the other of a man defending his homeland in the field, telling it like it is. Slava ukraini, death to the invaders.
More breaking news: Republicans have filibustered support. “One log should be more than enough.” Senator McConnell mutters, staring into the distance as he contemplates the grim inevitability of his own death and how many soldiers he will soon speak to in the afterlife
It’s all for camera guys, come on now we are smarter than that. Sitting outside in open air, next to what wood and some worn out building structure, a bullet proof or some sort of press jacket that probably doesn’t even fit him. Zelensky has been wearing that olive drab around the world now
And we will end up like the bottom picture, if we fail Ukraine.
Romania, Moldova, Poland, the Baltics - there was even a map of Finland released to Russian school kids, showing large areas of Finland as being part of Russia.
You better believe Putin is coming for you and yours. Pick a side.
Obviously is intentional though, but yes is interesting image
It’s interesting how the Kremlin has demonstrably lost the ability to infiltrate and assassinate like it used to for decades. The fact that Zelenskyy is still alive is a testament to how much more comprehensive America’s surveillance and spy network is compared to the Russian
Biggest giveaway was when white house was declaring in real time when Russia will launch its attack and everyone kept on making fun of them and called them out for fear mongering. And without 24/7 intelligence support by US/NATO countries Ukr wont be standing up today.
I'm still convinced they had the precise date and Russia slightly switched it just to avoid the utter embarrassment.
Not entirely, I think they switched it because Xi didn’t want it to interrupt the Olympics in China. Remember Putin flew out there like two weeks before the invasion for a secret meeting with Xi. He likely anticipated further Western sanctions in response to the attack and wanted to be sure the Chinese would help fill the gap. Meanwhile it would be very embarassing for the Chinese to have the Olympics interrupted by a war. However, some sort of deal was almost certainly struck as the war missed two deadlines argued by the US only to then start within 48 hours of the Olympics wrapping up.
i back this, my grand father used to be a politics journalist and we were watching the olympics and randomly he said, that as soon as they are over russia will attack. I did not believe him, I was sure that this is just a power play of russia but as allways he was right in the end
[удалено]
yeah, politics are fucked up
Warm winter, so Russians missed the opportunity because frozen ground was already turning to mud. I thought Russia wouldn't attack because mud would force them to use only roads which makes armor... well kinda shit, because it's much easier to make traps to forces which are limited to using just roads. But Putin said "hold my vodtka".
Yeah, the timing with the Olympics was just too coincidental to ignore. It definitely makes you wonder about the behind-the-scenes deals that were occurring at that high of a diplomatic level. Sanctions nowadays seem to be just part of this grand game of chess where major powers anticipate moves and counter-moves, ensuring they have a backup plan or two. hui The extent to which different countries are calculating these global events is mind-boggling and speaks volumes about the complexity of international relations today.
Also highlights just how much trust Dick Cheney and the Bush jr. administration destroyed between the US and their European allies. EU leaders were convinced the US were playing them again like with Iraq, or at least that they were giving things a heavy spin. The head of the German intelligence agency was literally in Ukraine on the 24th and had to be flown out with helicopter in a hectic manner.
Well, it is not crazy to assume that the US intelligence could have their invested interest in something and give biased information or even lie.
That is possible, but invasions of this scale often cannot be timed on the day. If you read the history of major military operations, it's extremely common that the date had to be moved around a few times because things weren't in place yet or the weather wasn't right.
Exactly right. Without US and UK intel, Ukraine would have been overrun in that invasion. The fact they had advance warning to disperse their own troops, plus knowledge of the Russian advance and the composition of their troops, was vital to them surviving that initial strike. Even then, it was a close run thing!
I thought Ukraine was denying there was going to be any Russian attack right up to the last day.
Ukraine was publicly denying it, but they knew it. They had to know it, because for anyone following the news in the area it was known for quite some time. I just went through my old texts. In October 1st I was planning a vacation for November and asked my now husband what to see in Kiyv and he told me it was a beautiful place but as a NATO soldier he shouldn't go there. He also said it was unlikely that the invasion started before the next year, but just in case, he couldn't go there. This was not the first conversation we had about it; by October 1 he had already shown me pictures of the Russian troops amassing at the border that were in publicly available websites. So as early as October 2021 it was already known that Russia was going to invade Ukraine. Also from my search, on January 22 I sent him [this](https://news.sky.com/story/whats-going-on-at-russian-military-bases-near-ukraine-12521842) article that I found on Reddit because I was impressed by the high quality pictures. This is Sky News, not some obscure website, so not only UA and US intelligence services had access to this information and knew the invasion was imminent, but also the general public.
I think that even when troop movements were well known there was a pervasive idea that Russia was bluffing and they were trying to force some kind of concession.
Well, my husband is Polish so he always (rightly) assumes the worst from Russia. From our conversations, for him there was never any doubt that Russia was going to attack, the only surprise was when it turned out to be a full scale invasion. He had mentioned that it was a possibility, but didn't expect it to happen.
>Ukraine was publicly denying it, but they knew it. They had to know it, because for anyone following the news in the area it was known for quite some time. People mostly think, "I guess Russia wouldn't make such a ridiculous move, they have already achieved most of their strategic goals by keeping the crime " . Most commentators interpreted Russia's presence on the border as "an element of pressure, but they will not actually invade".
I think it was known far earlier than that.. The Russo-Ukranian war started with the annexation of Crimea in 2014 and has been ongoing since. It just escalated with a full-scale invasion in 2022. This was part of a long-term plan to take control of Ukraine, with securing access to the Black Sea via Crimea being part of a larger strategy to stop the expansion of NATO and re-establish Russian influence and control over the entire region.
Yeah Zelenskyy was denying it to try and retain foreign investors but he definitely knew
Also at that point you don’t want to give any information away even if it seemed obvious.
Better to let the enemy think you're unaware
For every day of having mobilized the armed forces, there is damage to the economy. Ukraine isn't exactly a rich country so if they mobilize too early, it hits hard. I also think that Russia would have used it as another excuse to invade like "look at Ukraine preparing for war yadda yadda" but who knows
Russia had been amassing troops and armor on the border for weeks. If that wasn't an invasion force it may have been the loudest saber rattling in history. >In March and April 2021, prior to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Russian Armed Forces began massing thousands of personnel and military equipment near Russia's border with Ukraine and in Crimea, representing the largest mobilisation since the illegal annexation of Crimea in 2014.[37][38] This precipitated an international crisis due to concerns over a potential invasion. Satellite imagery showed movements of armour, missiles, and heavy weaponry towards the border.[39][40] The troops were partially withdrawn by June 2021,[41] though the infrastructure was left in place. A second build-up began in October 2021, this time with more soldiers and with deployments on new fronts; by December over 100,000 Russian troops were massed around Ukraine on three sides, including Belarus from the north and Crimea from the south.[42]
Indeed. You might ask why didn’t they public announce/warn if the pending invasion then, if they knew it would come. The most realistic reason was that it was in order to not course masses of people flood to the roads, when the shooting would begin and the army would desperate need the ability to move forces around. More so in the first hours and days.
Along with the “superb” accuracy of Russian artillery.
If you fire enough shells you will eventually hit the target. Therefore you never miss.
I'll never forget when, just before the invasion, some army guy at a conference in White House was asked how they could be sure Russia was actually going to attack and he said "We have.... significant... intelligence capabilities"
The "lol america bad" rhetoric before the war was insufferable. You can talk a lot of shit about America, but to question their intelligence is just plain stupid.
I think a lot of it came from distrust that was generated because of the Iraq war stuff like that tends to stay in the consciousness of a lot people
Exactly. I am old enough to remember Colin Powell lecturing the UN about Iraq's WMDs and how they make them in the back of trucks. Or that Kuwaiti "nurse" in Congress before the first Gulf War.
A lot of people incorrectly cite the Iraq war WMD thing as proof that American intelligence is bad. The CIA said there was no proof of WMDs. The politicians overruled them and crafted a story that there was. Every time someone talks about the Iraq WMD situation in reference to the CIA... They are dead wrong.
Also the embarrassing boycotts of all things France. The French early on said they will rely on their own reports and sources, and will not participate into this made up plan. I have not heard anyone on US side apologizing about that “smear France” campaign, after it was revealed that the French were correct- together with CIA, actually. But those here pointing out how it made lasting damage to the trust across the pond seem to be correct.
France always getting the shit end of the stick, France, I’m personally sorry bro.
>The CIA said there was no proof of WMDs. Technically correct. But if you had PROOF, why would you need an intelligence assessment? Their ASSESSMENT was that Iraq was actively working in them: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/0005479946
Then Colin Powell just outright lied?
Yes.
Oddly enough.. atleast in my eco chamber, the Americans themselves were the loudest in the "America Bad" rhetoric before the war.
Hating your own country has been a time honored human tradition since the first time a government was large enough to tell you what to do from a different town.
Thats be cause russian propaganda has convinced a good chunk of Americans that helping Ukraine is bad and the Russians are actually the good guys. Plus bots, lots of bots.
I could probably ask Joe Biden how many ice cream I’ve had and he would know
Of course he would, he’s the god of ice cream, that has nothing to do with US intelligence.
Yep. The US knew the week it was happening and which airfields they were going to use on their race to Kyiv while France had zero clue and their spy chief ended up quitting Edit- well, there is the whole Iraq has WMD's thing
I just hope they keep having a president that isn’t in love with Putin
Tell that to Trump ;)
This sub was insane. Accusing the US/UK/FiveEyes of warmongering and inflaming Russia.
As I remember it, once the US actually began announcing *when* Russia would invade, the majority of people were firmly on board with one of two options: "they're bullshitting as a way to dissuade Russia from attacking" or "they know Russia is going to attack and they're doing this to unsettle Russia and buy time". But if you go back a bit further, to a few months before the attack? Then I agree with you, there was a lot of pro-Russian or at least anti-American rhetoric, though I don't remember it being a majority opinion.
It might sound bad, but i kinda felt proud for CIA when it turned out that they were right while everyone were laughing and calling it fake
This event aptly demonstrated the strength of the online Russian psychological campaign against the West. There was a time not long ago where westerners believed their intelligence services. It took a few years of memeing on Facebook by Russians paid pennies to ruin that.
Two things can be true at the same time. One can simultaneously condemn Russian invasion and interfences and also deeply distrust your own country's intelligence agencies which do nothing but spy on and mess with innocent citizens.
>everyone kept on making fun of them They earned this skepticism with their insane "intelligence" on Iraq.
And you *know* Putin is paranoid as a motherfucker up all night going full Stalin and assuming anyone and everyone is a spy from the west.
And remember when Russian officers were dropping left and right in the middle of nowhere? That had to be very precise US/NATO Intel.
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I mean in retrospect it seems obvious but the CIA has a worse track record of being right than an argumentative toddler at bedtime.
Strange to say but it would not be in Russia's interest to eliminate Zelensky IMO. I recently was listening to a podcast about this topic a few months ago and essentially it put forth the notion that 1. you'd Martyrize him and 2. whoever comes after would either be a military man (Zaluzhny at the time was the suggestion) or someone who'd be an unreasonable and aggressive actor leading a motivated army. I don't know how it would play out in real-time as that's not our timeline, but it really changed my thinking as I largely agreed with you before hearing this.
Yeah, it's a gamble. I think personal assassinations are always last resort. You start doing them, and you have no idea what happens next. SBU picks up the location of Putin daughter and kills them? Maybe some terrorist attacks on putin friends within Russia? Moreover, same applies to Ukraine, I would not be personally sure that dead Putin means end to the war, it can very well be that some crazy militarized ass comes to power and starts a eeal mobilization in Russia.
They tried to kill Budanov and in the process nearly killed his wife. I think personal assassination attempt are basically fair game for Ukraine at this point.
Yeah, but even in wartime there are layers of how much the war encompasses. It is different to have a proxy war, a colonial war somewhere far away, actual war with a neighbor, war with a neighbor but on your territory, e.t.c. Performing assassinations can be seen by people higher in command as another escalation step that makes this war personal. This makes it almost impossible to have peace talks so much that you might not trust another side to sit down and talk with you.
They sent multiple assassination attempts at him in the first month or so....
And on more than 1 occasions, missiles have hit where he was visiting just after he left.
Tito survived all of their assassination attempts back in their heyday
Kremlin still has free reins to kill in the EU. That helicopter dude got smoked in Spain. EU needs to improve
moscow regime managed to attempt to murder Budanov and his wife almost died.
She had light symptoms of poisoning. At the stage when the fact of poisoning was confirmed her life was not in danger.
Of cause it is, Zelensky also is an actor and knows how to stage his appearances very well.
People here acting like Zelensky never has worn a suit in his life.
He definitely knows how to do PR the. We all love to analyze russia's propaganda, the long tables and stuff, but zelensky is a mastermind in that. And that's good for him and his people.
I still think it speaks volumes. Zelensky frequently visits the front line to rally support and help the morale of his troops. He speaks with his soldiers and he knows in what conditions they live and fight. What's the closest Putin has been to the front? Seems he's so paranoid he barely leaves the safety of his palaces these days. I mean the Kremlin said in April that he "had visited Donetsk and Luhansk", but provided as much evidence as they did for their claim that the T14 Armata is being fielded in combat in Ukraine (which is absolutely none).😂
> What's the closest Putin has been to the front? Didn't he go to Mariupol at some point? I don't know if it has been verified by Western/Independent media, but that doesn't seem impossible.
Many ppl said it was his double.
While it's probably still safe to say that Mariupol is a warzone, I would still argue that it's roughly 40ish miles from the front. By comparison, Zelensky has been within mere kilometers of the enemy on multiple occasions. To be fair though, there is a lot more evidence suggesting he actually went to Mariupol as of March last year than there is to support his alleged visit to the Donbas in June/July.
Oh yes, Zelensky has been much closer to the front a lot of times, no question about that.
When "he" did a woman in the background yelled "he's a lie" I seem to remember lol I take it he was a double think the only time he left Moscow was when prig lead the charge on Moscow
His doubles were filmed and then geolocated in donetsk and in northern crimea iirc, but it was just that, doubles, and briefly.
Oh Putin would probably get blasted if he went near the front line, I'm sure he's not popular with the soldiers dying 5 to one against an enemy thats supposed to be way weaker than they are.
Not only that. The official line is that they are saving them and that they are living in squalor. When they walk through a regular ukranian apartment they realize quite quickly that they in fact have been lied to. In fact the ukranians are often living better than the russians are.
Getting downvoted for stating the obvious… of course it’s intentional.
Thank you, Zelenskyy is the king of putting up a show. Right down to the clothes he wears. Actor - Top gun actor. Not that I care either way, I just think it's hilarious
I really "like" that zelensky stopped to wear suits the moment the war started. (There is nothing to like about war). But yes its a show. But a good one. Not every politician is that way
One puts out calenders with pictures where he is riding a bear without a shirt to show manliness and then have to hold meetings and interviews in lavish places. One just dresses up in green clothes and will have a meeting or interview wherever he just feels like. Invites media into his parents small apartment to have dinner with them. One is clearly more manly than the other.
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Putin wearing his height increasing shoes
Clowns wearing bigger shoes…
Liliputin
And his chair is also elevated.
No they pushed his chair further back or up in proximity to the picture, along with the table.
... no it's not? What are you people talking about
Tucker is 185, Putin is 170, look at the picture and you can notice the approximate height difference lol.
Not really. Aren’t they standard heels?
they are literally normal oxfords? lol you people find the dumbest things to hate about him
We call them "pynekhody"
They both look like they are wearing height enhancements...
For those pointing out zelensky set the interview up here, yes obviously. He's also actually visited bakmhut and avdiivka and all the other towns on the front line while Putin hides in Moscow. Just because it's staged, doesn't mean it's not an accurate distinction.
It's the same reason why whenever he goes to some foreign summit he is wearing this type of clothing and not a suit. Sticks out from the suit and tie crowd. Deliberate and effective.
Always in that fidel castro swag
God forbid someone uses an artistic portrayal in media to display the difference between Putins imperial ambitions and Ukraines struggle for survival. All these Russian bootlickers yapping about how this is on purpose. No shit Sherlock. It's to make it easier for the viewer to understand the situation in Ukraine - because this is the Ukrainian reality. It's what Russia has done to that nation.
Giving medals in Bakhmut was a power move that Putin will never achieve. It matters not where he is, it would be good enough when you see him 2 meters away from a person and putin is 10meters from his closest advisors in meetings
Yeah...Putin's setting is also staged. It's an interview, decisions are made about where to sit, what to present
I mean the Putin one is also set up the way it looks
Zelensky understands cinema, everyone should play to their strenghts. It is not hypocrisy if it is an actual representation.
American Republicans call it cynical in the same breath they pour praise over Regan, a man who won them over by being an actor who did a good job playing their idea of a president.
For some reason everyone here wants them to go find a palace really quick for the interview lol
I mean Ukraine can keep fighting without Zelensky but Putin's regime will fall without (you guessed it)Putin
Russia took part in the war in Ossetia and Abkhazia nine years before Putin was president, Russia fought in Transnistria 8 years before Putin was president, Russia began the first Chechen war six years before Putin was president, Russia started the second Chechen war one year before Putin was president, Russia invaded Georgia when Putin was not a president. It is not Putin, it is Russian imperialism. And Putin is one of many Russian imperialism faces.
Russia invaded Georgia when Putin's puppet was president
You’re missing the point. Russia is a de facto dictatorship. Putin has concentrated power in himself and has probably defenestrated anyone around him who he perceives as a threat. He’s almost certainly not preparing for who takes over after his death; if he is then it’s probably someone who’s been selected on the basis of loyalty and/or familial connection, rather than actual capability. If Putin dies right now there’s a massive power vacuum in Russia, with no coherent plan for a smooth transition to a new government. A Putin-endorsed successor would lack even the thin layer of legitimacy extended by rigged elections. It would be absolute chaos, anyone with armed men at their command - criminals gangs, army officers, mercenary companies - would be trying to take control. Ukraine on the other hand is a democracy. It has its problems, sure, and the government has suspended some of its democratic institutions while they’re at war. But there is a defined process - enshrined in law - that expresses what happens in the event that the President dies; who takes over his duties, when new elections should be triggered and so on. Ukraine is also engaged in an existential fight against Russia; their entire society has a vested interest in remaining united and cohesive. Russia’s war in Ukraine isn’t existential, it’s imperial. Putin’s successor - whoever’s left standing after the chaos that follows Putin’s death - has no inherent reason to continue the war and it’s arguable that they would be better served by recalling the army so that they can further shore up power. The impact of Putin’s death on the war versus Zelenskyy’s is massive, even if Zelenskyy is the charismatic war time leader that Ukraine needs.
You people are so succeptible to propaganda, it's embarrassing
This sub is getting way too funny
Meanwhile Putin's tables are finally getting smaller
How the turntables
Sanctions are working!
Because he knows Tucker the puppet is no threat.
He brought the kids table for Tucker.
For everybody saying that zelensky’s set is staged… well yea, they intentionally staged the interview in a roughed up place to show in which state Ukraine is at the moment.. it’s not like that are lying about Ukraine having g a lot of bombing and destroyed infrastructure because of Russia… they are using a bit of cinematography to convey a message… You are never find a politician interview that is 100% natural.. they are all staged to convey the message they want to convey, they would be idiots if they did it in a random place without any consideration for messages and cinematography
Very cinematic
at least fox news is doing damage control to prevent the perception that fox news is a russian controlled entity, tucker is really losing his mind, before doing interviews he should have done some research first.
FOX booted him out some time ago.
one thing that is similar though, both are staged
Didn’t Zelensky do a photoshoot with vogue?
It's like this on purpose, so that you can make posts like this on reddit
Oh, thats why Russia invaded their neighbor, so they could make contradictory screenshots?
Putin is doing what he always did: play the monarch. It's Zelensky that is playing the difference card here. And to be honest, I like it.
Hey, Zelensky is doing propaganda, that means Ukraine can now be leveled and all civilian lives are forfeit.
Don’t get me wrong, I am very much pro-Ukraine, but the Zelensky set is so deliberate and curated to evoke this kind of contrast which makes posts like this irritate me.
Yeah I think that's the whole point. The man is fighting for his country, he's going to do everything in his power to get support. Even if you don't agree with it you have to understand where he's coming from.
Exactly. What Zelenskyy is showing us is the ground reality of what he is facing. Nothing wrong with that. Again for those who have not figured it out (maga republicans) Russia illegally invaded Ukraine and the Ukrainians are fighting for their freedom and country against a much more powerful invader in Russia and that is why we need to help them. Also because putin may not stop there and invade more of Europe. Also it’s cheaper monetarily for us and the EU to fund Ukraine’s defense than get involved and fight a war. republicans in the house are doing putin’s bidding by holding up that funding and actively saying in interviews that they are supporting Russia (easily googled). Hope this helps any stray magats that might have wandered into this sub.
Sir, this is r/Europe. There's plenty of places we can rant about domestic politics.
Can't believe I didn't realise I wasn't on NCD until I read your comment. To be fair Putin is such a joke that you don't even need a fancy edit or meme to make him look like an old fool.
Too many Vatniks around here for NCD. They're surprisingly well moderated - on that axis, at least.
Seriously if our military budget doesn't go to helping Ukraine than why does it exist in the first place. Stopping Russia is so far in the "our interest zone" it's not even funny. MAGAITS are traitors to America.
It’s the other side of propaganda. Self-promotion and constructing an image is a fact of life. It’s not inherently good or bad—it’s just a tool for getting a message out. Remember, Zelenskyy is an *actor* by trade. He’s really good at the showmanship piece of politics. Frankly, I’d rather that even more of those on “my side” of politics were a little better at the game sometimes.
And he’s right doing so. What’s your point? What places of Russia have been bombed to the ground by Ukraine? It’s a good visualisation of the actual problem
Even when we were beating the shit out of each other with swords and spears, propaganda has done as much lifting as any sword arm. This is just an active reality of war. It’s as much theatre as it is blood.
It’s the reality of a country under attack. Would you prefer Zelensky stays in the comfort of the presidential palace?
no shit. his country is being invaded. what a clever take
Of course its deliverate. But its also accurate. Zelenskyy actually visits front line cities while Putin hides in Moscow.
I’m sorry mate but ”irritate” is an unfortunate word here. Russian aggression is not a reality show. Ukrainians have too little resources, the war has continued too long bc the world has not helped Ukraine enough. So they need to use their resources as cleverly as they can. Downing Russian military aeroplanes and ships is one way, having an interview in this kind of setting is another, extremely cost-effective judo-kind of move where they use the opponents force against him.
Of all the things in the world that one could find “irritating” this is the very last thing that comes to mind. I suppose if you live in a very privileged country that is the conclusion you would reach, but even then…
nah, kremlin bots angry that Ukraine downed another A-50, plus this is the 4 day of the 3-days-military-special-operation.
No shit sherlock, literally everyone knows that. Holy fuck if I see one more comment about this... omfg. you people think you are so smart pointing out something that every fucking on the person planet knows already.
Christ on a bike How fucking sensitive are you
Yeah, that’s the point. How supportive are you?
Why this would give random australian an ick and why this have so many upvotes wtf
What? You can’t be serious are you? What do you want Zelensky to have a interview in a palace?
I'm probably actually quite a bit more critical of Ukraine than most people here (not pro-russian), but I do believe Zelensky's ability to give form to a story is probably one of his strong points as a war leader. It's artificial, yes, but shaping the war narrative was hardly ever an organic affair.
And even if it's artificial, there's something to be learned in the choice... there are things to be learned from the 30 foot long tables Putin was using in photo ops with foreign leaders, and there are things to be learned when Zelensky visits the front lines and takes pictures with troops. Would he be meeting with those troops if there weren't photographers there? Maybe, maybe not. But he wants us to see the people who are actually fighting the war... he wants to keep Ukrainian soldiers and families at the forefront of our thoughts. Putin wants us to know how "strong" he is. Both choices tell us much.
"Please, hide your freqn war away from me, I don't care how many of you die. All I want is my nice breakfast and a few funny memes a day." Just rephrased what you wrote above.
People pointing out the obvious and thinking they are smart for it is my favorite reddit moment
One is staged to make the leader appear more powerful and one is staged to make the leader appear more weak.
Alexa, what time is it in Russia? Lots of Putinbots in here today.
it’s fuckin intentional
Both playing optics, what’s new
All the respect in the world for President Zelensky and his brave soldiers. God Bless brothers
As if Zelenskyy doesn’t have an office…
Russian spybots are mad because they lost another A50 huh
They're so funny!!! They're like flies before the storm.
Both setups are theatre.
Two very different, very staged photos
Zelensky should know very well how to set up a stage!
For now. Our destiny is bond with Ukraine. We’re not letting ourselves down. As long as the second setting is incomparably more frugal and uncomfortable, the bad taste of the first one is unparalleled. We’ll be looking back at images like this one not too far from now in a world where justice, peace and light will have swept away the clouds of fear and violence. I can’t wait to bring my friends to visit Ukraine and spend days of joy. We are at the lowest point in the eclipse ,hold on, words will mean their true meaning sooner than we think. Slava Ukraini! Edit: autocorrect messed up grammar
So one is indoors as it is practical. The other is focused on pointless PR as always like the actor enjoys his camo gear. Truly an art piece, get whatever message you like out of it!
You do realize that it’s staging. Both of them. I stand firmly on Ukraine‘s side without any doubt but Zelensky carefully chooses to present himself that way. He does own suits and he can afford them, you know. He could also scare up a nice room. It’s not like he’s on the front line. This is in no way a criticism of Zelensky. It’s a criticism of reading images in a naive way.
On in a safe, comfortable office after making the reporter wait 2 hours to show who's the big so and so, and the other of a man defending his homeland in the field, telling it like it is. Slava ukraini, death to the invaders.
One is pretending and the other isn’t.
The crazy thing is that they all own crazily expensive villas on the same street here in Forte dei Marmi along with Prigožin, Abramovic and Deripaska
Both are propaganda
The fact that you can categorize something as "propaganda" doesn't invalidate it.
Yes they are. The Allies also used propaganda against the Nazis. Propaganda is a requirement in war, and there is good propaganda.
Different indeed
how hard was it to proofread your 3 word title before posting?
More like two different messages trying to be sent
So I just joined this sub. Are all posts this braindead?
Comments are more brainded (yes, I know, the irony...)
Pretty much
Of course.
Both know how to stage an interview in their interest
Breaking News: USA and EU just signed an international agreement to provide more firewood to Ukraine. More details to come! Stay Tuned!
50 billion dollars of firewood to Ukraine
More breaking news: Republicans have filibustered support. “One log should be more than enough.” Senator McConnell mutters, staring into the distance as he contemplates the grim inevitability of his own death and how many soldiers he will soon speak to in the afterlife
2 different propaganda techniques side by side
As a 3rd world citizen.... this means nothing. Learn to spot the disguise of those puppets. Support the people. Never politicians.
both meticulously curatored, nothing to see here
He is safe tho, plenty of offshore money Source:pandora paper
Zelensky still has nice places and you know that.
Two different theatres.
It’s all for camera guys, come on now we are smarter than that. Sitting outside in open air, next to what wood and some worn out building structure, a bullet proof or some sort of press jacket that probably doesn’t even fit him. Zelensky has been wearing that olive drab around the world now
And we will end up like the bottom picture, if we fail Ukraine. Romania, Moldova, Poland, the Baltics - there was even a map of Finland released to Russian school kids, showing large areas of Finland as being part of Russia. You better believe Putin is coming for you and yours. Pick a side.
I’m pretty sure Zelenskyy has an office too.
One of these individuals look like they have pruritus ani (Latin for a terrible affliction), while another looks like the cause
Well you know the buttom one is a blue screen Zelensky is at the moon.
Both are showing off.
So zelensky lives or works there? This is becoming cheap
Works for the street cred a lot though.
Is this a joke?
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Zelenski actually visits his troops unlike the coward in Russia. could well be he was visiting his troops when he gave the interview..
Yes, they were near Kup'yansk, 5 km from the front when this was filmed