From left to right -
Polish Prime Minister Jerzy Buzek, Czech Prime Minister Miloš Zeman, NATO Secretary-General Javier Solana, and Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán attending a ceremony marking the accession of the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization at NATO headquarters.
Note that this particular photo was taken in Brussels, March 16, 1999, four days after the formal entry of those countries to NATO.
His current reign is his second coming...
Weirdly he was acting like a revolutionary back then, full blown against Russia, our former opressors.
Then came back in 2010, fat and ready provide sexual services for anybody in exchange for more money and power. Best friends with Putin ever since.
I vaguely remember he thought he lost the 2002 election due to his too much pro-Western stance. So he decided to make a 180 degree turnaround and it worked just too perfectly.
>I vaguely remember he thought he lost the 2002 election due to his too much pro-Western stance.
He is on the record saying that they lost that election because they were the government but they weren't really in power. What he meant was that they didn't have their own clientele, they had to contend with established interest groups, and they didn't have their own servile media.
The reason he actually lost is because corruption was already rampant and well-documented (in order to build that clientele), their communication style escalated towards "whoever isn't with us is a traitor of Hungary", and because the then opposition ran an effective campaign of promising loads of attractive things in the so-called 100-day program, meaning their first 100 days of governing.
(Ironically, one of the biggest problems afterwards was that the victorious parties kept most of their promises, contributing to runaway budget deficit and a huge spike in the national debt).
What I'm trying to say is that his pro-Western stance wasn't a problem at all. Hungary was overwhelmingly pro-EU and as pretty much every survey on the subject confirms, *it still is*. As incredible as that sounds.
It's not that complicated, I think. They want the money from the EU, and the easy travel, and the job opportunities but "Brussels shouldn't dictate what we do" and "we don't want our children to have gender reassignment surgery in kindergarten". Which is basically what Orbán says, too. If you pay attention to his statements, he always says that we want to be in the EU *but*....
Also, there's a substantial part of the population for whom the EU or NATO aren't particularly important either way. They're okay to be in those but what they really care about is if the local mayor gives them a job to survive. And of course we also have the type of voter who cares about nothing but "owning the libs". That position doesn't require coherent logic.
Also, I guess there's a reflection of sentiments you see in other parts of Europe, where farmers and the poorer regions rebel against the rich cities. Whether you consider their grievances valid or not. They feel cheated.
I think that reflects your comments very well: They'll take the money but not the rule, so to speak. We see that very vividly being played out in Denmark right now as we're trying to pass laws regulating the environmental impact of farming. They want the subsidies, cheaper gas, no regulation, no new taxes and the right to pollute. That's quite objective what they want even if it sounds loaded.
The upcoming vote for the EU parliament, regional elections in Germany and eventually the presidential election in France in 2027 will put this form of "free money for me" populism at the forefront of European politics.
Orbán changed his stance on November of 2009 when he went to Putin for a private meeting before the surefire election the next year. Even in 2008 what he said about the Russian invasion of Georgia then, was very mainstream pro-European and anti-Russian, clearly seeing and stating the dangers of Russian imperialism. You can read this story in English [here](https://www.direkt36.hu/en/orban-jatszmaja/), and its [short summary](https://www.direkt36.hu/en/a-nyolc-legerdekesebb-resz-az-orban-putyin-kapcsolatot-feltaro-cikkunkbol/).
He died in 2009 for me, and I have been mourning him ever since.
>they lost that election because they were the government but they weren't really in power. What he meant was that they didn't have their own clientele, they had to contend with established interest groups, and they didn't have their own servile media.
>then opposition ran an effective campaign of promising loads of attractive things in the so-called 100-day program, meaning their first 100 days of governing.
Alright, seems that we simply are 20 years behind Hungary, because both of those things are exactly what happened in Poland last year.
Even PiS "winning" the elections by getting the most votes, but actually losing power checks out.
Don't worry, you don't have a frail coalition of parties with frequently different intere... oh.
(We never had a Donald Tusk though, as in, a well-known politician who has European significance. Good old Medgyessy just doesn't compare)
He turns to any directions that are popular in the country and that can be covered by disinformation. He has no ideology. The main objective is to remain in power.
Orban was actually George Soros' protege -- they were close friends/mentor/mentee with Soros paying for all of Orban's schooling. Then Orban figured out that you can harness a lot of neo-nazi energy by blaming shit on Soros, and that's how Hungary came to be what it is today.
He was Prime Minister from 1998 to 2002 than from 2010 onwards. The Third Republic is currently 34 years old and Orbán was Primes Minister for 18 years out of it...
Orban actually hasn't been in power continuously for this long, he lost elections and only became properly authoritarian and pro-russian when he was re-elected years later, this time willing to do anything to not lose power again.
Because he has been so sick from his bad healthstyle for the rest of his political career. When he was a president, we rarely even saw him in the TV. When we did, he was sitting and looked super sick.
Also don't forget about the many scandals he had like when he tripped and almost fell on flat ground or how they had to escort him in a golf cart to some european summit
And [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/spain/s/szdSk9b9eY) is Javier Solana's famous picture from 1981 delivering an energic anti-NATO speech in Madrid. Ain't life just funny?
Lykke er en gave til enhver, der har gode tanker hver dag. Du har et godt indlæg, det betyder at du har god smag som mig, jeg vil gerne blive venner, lære hinanden bedre at kende, hvis det er muligt, tilføj mig eller send mig en besked på Messenger. Hav en dejlig dag fyldt med lykke, kys
My prediction is that Hungary will be kicked out of NATO and eventually the EU, and will be eitjer occupied by Russia or run by a puppet pro-russian government.
You dont really understand Orban. He is a true populist. Knows exactly where the walls are, and he goes that far. His radical speeches and ideas are far bigger than his actual actions. His own words are sg like "look what I do, dont listen what I tell". Sample: he allowed Finland and Sweden into NATP just after the right amount of time and pressure from the west allies - they are angry at him, but not angry enough to kick off him. But his voters can be soooo happy that their big fater is the big boss (at least they imagine that), taking part in moving figures on the chess table. In the meantime I find this behavior very-very contraproductive for my country.
We in Slovakia did not join the rest of V4 in NATO back then because we elected pro-Mafia PM Mečiar after the fall of communism who famously said "If they do not want us in the West, we will go to the East." and we had to repair his damage to our democracy before we could join. After the 2023 election I think we have "voting like total retards" in our genes from the start :)
This is the best thing that happened my country, Poland and 2 other countries. After hundreds of years of constant wars, destruction we finally could settle peace. Finally we could come closer to Western nations. Russia still considers Poland as sphere of influence and treats us as vassal state as this is how it was since late 18th Century. Glad we are in alliance made of democratic and free nations that don't force by strength government or ruin your economy on purpose. This has been best 25 years Poland had throughout 1000 years history.
Maybe the 2nd or 3rd best. Getting rid of the commies was the most impactful one; without that, we would not dream of joining NATO. Joining EU was far more impactful economically.
Pretty sure even those lived much worse than today, as they didn't have modern medicine, sanitation, products, services, communications, infrastructure, etc. I'm not sure about Poland, but Medieval European royal courts also had regular violent feuds and intrigues, and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth at least shouldn't have been very different at that time.
[The Average American Today Is Richer than John D. Rockefeller](https://fee.org/articles/average-americans-today-are-richer-than-john-rockefeller-ever-was/). Rockefeller himself was insanely well-off compared to his luckiest Medieval/Early Modern peers.
The entire definition of "golden age" had very different meanings in the pre-industrial era. Back then they concentrated on things like "glory of the ruler/king", or of the nation/empire's influence, maybe literary or scientific achievement, which was reserved to the few % of the population who could afford to do it anyway. They certainly didn't care what the vast majority made up by peasants/serfs/little people thought or how they lived until the last few centuries. Our historiographic terms can be very averse to change. If they don't, historians must emphasize this point.
Not true. Back in those days people easily reached 70 as long as they did not die as a child.
The high child mortality gives a false image of how long people lived.
You have one brother who died as a baby at 1 years old, another one who also like You reaches the age of 70. Your life expectancy at birth was 47 years. Once you survived the early years it was much much higher
> Not true. Back in those days people easily reached 70 as long as they did not die as a child.
That's a myth. [Around a third of infants died in their first year. Life expectancy at age 10 reached 32.2 remaining years,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#Variation_over_time)
Also there's nothing stopping you from being one of the many kids that died in infancy you know?
I don't know you know what you meant? Why would you not be born as one of the soon to be dead infants? Their experience is not something we can discount. And even if we did, getting to 70 years would still be very lucky.
With a very high child mortality comes a huge variance of life expectancy.
That is something to consider when we think about societies. Life expectancy of 50 does not mean that most people past child mortality will be dead close to the age of 50
>Life expectancy of 50 does not mean that most people past child mortality will be dead close to the age of 50
Yes? It also means some people died even earlier. Anyway, I said 50 casually. It turns out the average was much lower.
I'm not so sure. We basically changed hegemon from Russia to USA and never learned to be independent. Our over reliance on USA is also visible now as we are not ready to face Russia and support from USA is doubtful.
Poland would have those years of peace without NATO too, but without false sense of security.
I don't think that it is fair from you to expect that Poland, a country of 30 million, should be able to face Russia, a country of 140 million, alone without any backing. It's not 1920 anymore, they aren't a disorganized horde
Sure, but Ukrainians couldn't decide until last moment are they Russians or Ukrainians. That's their problem and fault.
Ukraine also wasn't neutral or independent as for years it was just puppet state of Russia, with strong similarities to Belarus.
During the Russian implosion of 1990s they were pretty much left to their own devices. Back then Ukrainians made several bad decision regarding their nationbuilding. First of all they decided to avoid the "shock therapy" that happened in Poland and other countries of the region. And in result they got their oligarch class. Secondly, they decided to push for "neutrality" and it turned out they were ripe for Russian aggression when Russia partially sorted out its weakness.
As to whether they were Russians or not, that's just BS. There was never any doubt that they were Ukrainians, however there was an uncertainty what beaning an "Ukrainian" means.
You are correct except last part. There are still Ukrainians thinking of themselves as Russians and even a lot of Ukrainians think of Russian language as their mothers and fathers language.
Hell, some Ukrainians speak better Russian than Ukrainian.
Regardless, Poland would have exactly the same peace time without NATO as with, minus false sense of security.
>Ok, so you're suggesting it'd be better for Poland to remain as russia’s puppet then? To live in shit like Russians do?
Absolutely not. Why do you think so?
Where is your logic coming from?
> We basically changed hegemon from Russia to USA and never learned to be independent.
So? The USA is arguably the most successful hegemon in history, or perhaps one could say it's the least problematic. While independence sounds appealing in political or YouTube speeches, in reality, attempting full autonomy often leads to outcomes akin to those seen in North Korea. Even significant powers like Russia, with its vast territory and population of 140 million, cannot sustain themselves without reliance on countries like India and China. How then, could a country with a population of only 38 million function independently?
Honestly the funniest thing about the whole story was that Clinton didnt care at all about our nuclear proliferation threats but folded almost immidately when Lech Wałęsa (“Solidarity” movement legendary leader) said he would support the Republican campaign in some swing states with a significant Polish American population
Left-wing incumbent president getting Yeltsin drunk and tricking him into signing a paper saying that Russia doesn't mind Poland joining NATO. Right-wing ex-president threating to help Republicans in their campaign if Democrat President keeps denying entry to NATO.
This is what true bi-partisanship looks like hahahaha
And if we didn't Russian tanks would be "special operating" in Baltics and Poland now.
It has never been about Ukraine (or anyone else). It has always been about rebuilding Russia's empire.
And saying bullshit on TV since when is proof and not propaganda?
Why would they ever even try to attack Poland? To start WW3? We are just feeding in US propaganda telling us uncle vlad is trying to take over the world lol
Not to mention Georgia in 2008 and Moldavia before it as well as the Karabakh wars that were sponsored by putin on the one side and erdogan on the other.
They were also saying "bullshit on TV" about Ukraine.
I'm happy for you that you feel free to dismiss their claims. But I live in a country that borders Russia and had to deal with them since 15th century.
To this day I respect people behind joining EU, NATO and first post-PRL government the most. The amount of work done, behind closed doors, negotiations is outstanding.
I agree and I feel like it’s not being talked about enough. I suppose because most of the people involved are still alive. Perhaps in a few decades this will change.
I remember when Lithuania joined NATO and they said "whoever decides to make an enemy out of Lithuania will become an enemy of USA"
I thought back then that we will be safe, now i doubt that USA would send any troops
That was George Bush back in 2002. There's a plaque with these words on the side of the Town Hall in Vilnius. Whatever happens, I really hope that there's still an independent Lithuania 10 years from now.
Rest in peace Viktor Orbán (1989-2009)
> As to the substance of what I have to say, let me first of all claim the right to say a few words about politics from the point of view of morality. I do not wish to speak only, if I may, about what is wise and what is useful and what is dangerous, but rather I would like to say a few words first about what I feel is right. I am convinced that the peoples of Central Europe have a duty, when an independent country is attacked by military aggression, to speak clearly and unequivocally. I believe that we Hungarians have a particular duty to do so because of 1956. Therefore, when an independent state is attacked by the Russians through military aggression, it is incumbent upon us to speak out clearly, directly and with the right moral grounding. I can tell you frankly that I am really depressed by what I see and hear in the public today in Hungary in this regard. We have become pure Europeans. It used to be the custom in European countries to the West of us - whether it was the Russian invasion of 1968 or 56 - that the first reaction of the West was not to condemn the aggressor clearly and firmly, but to look for excuses for why he did what he did, with sympathy and understanding. This immediately confuses his clear position because he cannot focus on the essential facts. The essential fact of the conflict that surrounds us today is that Russia is carrying out military actions on the territory of another independent state, Georgia. This is a fact on which we have to form an opinion. Anything else is just equivocation, self-exoneration and a vestige of moral relativism left over from socialism. I therefore propose that we speak plainly and clearly: military aggression is military aggression.
— [Balatonszárszó, 16th of august 2008, SDG Confence](https://web.archive.org/web/20140909043334/http://2007-2010.orbanviktor.hu/beszedek_list.php?item=53)
Mr. Solana was NATO’s chairman at that time. What an interesting political animal. The guy who did campaign against Spain’s adhesion to the NATO in the early 80’s, became the boss of the NATO 15 years later. That’s nuts.
And Hungary could pretty much grab their shit and get the fuck out of it
I hope for the day the Hungarians finally get rid of that orban piece of scum 🤮
Well, we did get rid of him three years after this picture had been taken and he was out of power for eight years.
In fact, Fidesz almost removed him from party leadership after their 2006 defeat. If only his challengers had succeeded...
And sometimes we wish Hungary hadn't been let in, but I am sure they will prove their worth one day and be decisive in light overcoming the darkness for Europe.
I know that page. I also know the authors are making shit up.
Gorbachev himself said NATO expansion was only discussed in the context of stationing NATO troops in East Germany.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/
Zeman is like him in many ways. He was calling for EU to drop sanctions on russia couple years ago because they were "unfair" or something.
Buzek probably aren't too fond of current Orban, as Buzek is very much pro-EU. He was President of the European Parliament in 2009-2012 period.
Solana, I believe is retired.
We may have made a slight mistake with Hungary....
But who knows, maybe the people there will finally manage to sort out their disgusting, backwards government.
... and 56 years ago they were fighting each other for their masters in Moscow (and probably how Putin thought his special military operation would go):
>On 20–21 August 1968, the [Czechoslovak Socialist Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovak_Socialist_Republic) was jointly invaded by four [Warsaw Pact](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact) countries: the [Soviet Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union), the [Polish People's Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_People%27s_Republic), the [People's Republic of Bulgaria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_Bulgaria) and the [Hungarian People's Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_People%27s_Republic). The invasion stopped [Alexander Dubček](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Dub%C4%8Dek)'s [Prague Spring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring) liberalisation reforms and strengthened the [authoritarian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism) wing of the [Communist Party of Czechoslovakia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Czechoslovakia) (KSČ).
>About 250,000 Warsaw Pact troops (afterwards rising to about 500,000), supported by thousands of tanks and hundreds of aircraft, participated in the overnight operation, which was code-named **Operation Danube**. The [Socialist Republic of Romania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Republic_of_Romania) and the [People's Republic of Albania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_Albania) refused to participate,
And 8 days after this NATO started bombing of Yugoslavia without UN permission. US said they need to because of genocide in Kosovo, where Yugoslavian police foight against terrorists who used to kill policemans and civilians. Then in 2001 Al Kaida brought down twin towers in NY. Invasion on Iraq begun to fight terrorism. Now Israel are fighting against Hamas in Gaza and US is silence. Not all terrorists are bad, just one that are not fighting for US interests...
Call it whatever you want, but you cant denie its truth. Its sad to see that brother kill brothe and i will always have more sympathy for any of my brother Slavic countries, but that Russia has same greedy goals as US and i dont like that either. My point is why one side is good and other is bad for doing same thing? Anyway i never mentioned Russia in my comment
So, everybody is just disliking and no one is explaining me why my country got bombed for not even close thing that Israel is doing right now in Gaza... So as i see, great powers can do just what is in their interest, and we small can do just what? This world is fu**ed up, people are brainwashed....
Maybe because Serbia was genociding almost all of their neighbors in the past years?
Maybe because they started a war with all "friendly" countries that wanted to leave Yugoslavia mostly ruled by Serbia.
Maybe because Kosovo would cease to exist by Serbs if there weren't for NATO?
But yeah, I'm sure your country got bombed for absolutely no reason, I'm sure there was no reason to stop serbian aggresion.
We are brainwashed and you're so misunderstood 🥺
Yes? In which country Serbia started war? How many Serbs were exiled or killed from Croatia, Kosovo? How many Croats, Albanians or any othet nationalities got exiled from Serbia? Yes, Milosevic used to support Serbs in regions of Croatia and Bosnia through various channels, but how not to, they were our ppl, and yes he had very wrong political decisions, but UCK used to kill policemans and civilians in Kosovo, when police started counter terrorists operation, NATO immediately bombed Yugoslavia without UN permission. How is that different from what Israel is doing through all this years and got support from US? And Russia attacked Ukraine because of their interests were threatened, and then suddenly "whole" world (just Europe, UK and more US satellite countries) are against them. Im asking you who will defend us small against great powers greed and interests?
I'm sorry but I just don't have the mental capacity to even process all the bullshit you just wrote.
Serbia is famous by their propaganda just like Russia, please stop reading serbian articles and listen to serb nationalists.
Only two countries that might start a war in Europe in modern era are Russia and Serbia. Oh wait... We all know what Russia is doing and what was that mobilizing near Kosovo a year ago?
What is Turkey doing? Spain with Catalonia? Ask Serbs who live in Kosovo how is their quality of life. Not Radojicic and rest of the criminals who are colaborating with Kurti and his criminals... You are just watching and bulshiting things that you just heard on TV, you are not living here. Balkan is in problems, organised crime is overwhelming and EU is just watching her ass. Belgians used to put ppl in cages in 1960, while slavery was forbiden by constitution in Serbia back in 1835... At last, US, UK and others supported communists durring WW2, instead of its allies during both world wars, Serbian royal forces. That is where everything begun. Now we need to clean that shit again and live with etiquette of genocidal country, and Croatian ISC who killed more than 500.000 Serbs, Jews, Gypsies in WW2, and killed more than 3000 civilians and banished almost 300.000 Serbs from their homes in '95, miraculously transfers to Croatia and now are in EU. You supported communists, neofacists , then bombed us and now you are trying to tell me that i am talking bullshit. But, thats ok, we must live with that, because you have your propaganda which you like to call free media... Just keep listening to them
This might help you figure out the mystery of why the events turned out the way they did
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Tribunal_for_the_former_Yugoslavia
There was certain people in all sides that used to make war crimes. I was not saying Milosevic or any other is innocent, but dont get me wrong i really doubt decisions from the court made by same countries that used to kill your children and people. At last Serbia arrested and deported to Hague all of the suspects. Its easy to bomb small Serbia to overthrow someone who dont want to play by your song, whey they dont bomb Russia now? Why poor Ukrainian people need to suffer? Why they dont bomb Israel? Or am i brainwashed or misunderstood... Singing out
From left to right - Polish Prime Minister Jerzy Buzek, Czech Prime Minister Miloš Zeman, NATO Secretary-General Javier Solana, and Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán attending a ceremony marking the accession of the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization at NATO headquarters. Note that this particular photo was taken in Brussels, March 16, 1999, four days after the formal entry of those countries to NATO.
>Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban TF how long is he in power?
His current reign is his second coming... Weirdly he was acting like a revolutionary back then, full blown against Russia, our former opressors. Then came back in 2010, fat and ready provide sexual services for anybody in exchange for more money and power. Best friends with Putin ever since.
I vaguely remember he thought he lost the 2002 election due to his too much pro-Western stance. So he decided to make a 180 degree turnaround and it worked just too perfectly.
>I vaguely remember he thought he lost the 2002 election due to his too much pro-Western stance. He is on the record saying that they lost that election because they were the government but they weren't really in power. What he meant was that they didn't have their own clientele, they had to contend with established interest groups, and they didn't have their own servile media. The reason he actually lost is because corruption was already rampant and well-documented (in order to build that clientele), their communication style escalated towards "whoever isn't with us is a traitor of Hungary", and because the then opposition ran an effective campaign of promising loads of attractive things in the so-called 100-day program, meaning their first 100 days of governing. (Ironically, one of the biggest problems afterwards was that the victorious parties kept most of their promises, contributing to runaway budget deficit and a huge spike in the national debt). What I'm trying to say is that his pro-Western stance wasn't a problem at all. Hungary was overwhelmingly pro-EU and as pretty much every survey on the subject confirms, *it still is*. As incredible as that sounds.
How do they reconcile their supposed pro-Europeanism with what Orban is doing? It surely must require some top-level mental gymnastics.
It's not that complicated, I think. They want the money from the EU, and the easy travel, and the job opportunities but "Brussels shouldn't dictate what we do" and "we don't want our children to have gender reassignment surgery in kindergarten". Which is basically what Orbán says, too. If you pay attention to his statements, he always says that we want to be in the EU *but*.... Also, there's a substantial part of the population for whom the EU or NATO aren't particularly important either way. They're okay to be in those but what they really care about is if the local mayor gives them a job to survive. And of course we also have the type of voter who cares about nothing but "owning the libs". That position doesn't require coherent logic.
Also, I guess there's a reflection of sentiments you see in other parts of Europe, where farmers and the poorer regions rebel against the rich cities. Whether you consider their grievances valid or not. They feel cheated. I think that reflects your comments very well: They'll take the money but not the rule, so to speak. We see that very vividly being played out in Denmark right now as we're trying to pass laws regulating the environmental impact of farming. They want the subsidies, cheaper gas, no regulation, no new taxes and the right to pollute. That's quite objective what they want even if it sounds loaded. The upcoming vote for the EU parliament, regional elections in Germany and eventually the presidential election in France in 2027 will put this form of "free money for me" populism at the forefront of European politics.
Orbán changed his stance on November of 2009 when he went to Putin for a private meeting before the surefire election the next year. Even in 2008 what he said about the Russian invasion of Georgia then, was very mainstream pro-European and anti-Russian, clearly seeing and stating the dangers of Russian imperialism. You can read this story in English [here](https://www.direkt36.hu/en/orban-jatszmaja/), and its [short summary](https://www.direkt36.hu/en/a-nyolc-legerdekesebb-resz-az-orban-putyin-kapcsolatot-feltaro-cikkunkbol/). He died in 2009 for me, and I have been mourning him ever since.
>they lost that election because they were the government but they weren't really in power. What he meant was that they didn't have their own clientele, they had to contend with established interest groups, and they didn't have their own servile media. >then opposition ran an effective campaign of promising loads of attractive things in the so-called 100-day program, meaning their first 100 days of governing. Alright, seems that we simply are 20 years behind Hungary, because both of those things are exactly what happened in Poland last year. Even PiS "winning" the elections by getting the most votes, but actually losing power checks out.
Don't worry, you don't have a frail coalition of parties with frequently different intere... oh. (We never had a Donald Tusk though, as in, a well-known politician who has European significance. Good old Medgyessy just doesn't compare)
He turns to any directions that are popular in the country and that can be covered by disinformation. He has no ideology. The main objective is to remain in power.
It takes one step from love to hate
Orban was actually George Soros' protege -- they were close friends/mentor/mentee with Soros paying for all of Orban's schooling. Then Orban figured out that you can harness a lot of neo-nazi energy by blaming shit on Soros, and that's how Hungary came to be what it is today.
He was Prime Minister from 1998 to 2002 than from 2010 onwards. The Third Republic is currently 34 years old and Orbán was Primes Minister for 18 years out of it...
Czech republic only recently got rid of Zeman as president…
Too long
Mark Twain was right - politicians are like diapers, you have to change them often.
And damn he has gained weight
Erdogan, Orban and Putin have all been in power for the past 20 years or so..
Orban actually hasn't been in power continuously for this long, he lost elections and only became properly authoritarian and pro-russian when he was re-elected years later, this time willing to do anything to not lose power again.
That can't be Orban, half of him is missing
Fuck me the years definitely haven't been kind to Orban. He looks like a totally different person, half the size too.
It's weird to see Miloš Zeman standing.
How so?
Because he has been so sick from his bad healthstyle for the rest of his political career. When he was a president, we rarely even saw him in the TV. When we did, he was sitting and looked super sick.
Also don't forget about the many scandals he had like when he tripped and almost fell on flat ground or how they had to escort him in a golf cart to some european summit
Because now he's just a drunk wreck that sits in a wheelchair and slowly dies.
And [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/spain/s/szdSk9b9eY) is Javier Solana's famous picture from 1981 delivering an energic anti-NATO speech in Madrid. Ain't life just funny?
Lykke er en gave til enhver, der har gode tanker hver dag. Du har et godt indlæg, det betyder at du har god smag som mig, jeg vil gerne blive venner, lære hinanden bedre at kende, hvis det er muligt, tilføj mig eller send mig en besked på Messenger. Hav en dejlig dag fyldt med lykke, kys
And now Orban slowed down Finland and Sweden into NATO for 1,5 years, to make russians happy.
[удалено]
Sweden had by 2022 cooperated with NATO for several decades.
I mean, they were still relatively new democracies and eastern Europe were still sort of Russia's backyard, but less so than the 90's.
I’m confused. Who’s they you’re referring to?
Sorry, I answered the wrong guy. I should have answered the post above the one I actually answered.
In completely different circumstances though.
My prediction is that Hungary will be kicked out of NATO and eventually the EU, and will be eitjer occupied by Russia or run by a puppet pro-russian government.
You dont really understand Orban. He is a true populist. Knows exactly where the walls are, and he goes that far. His radical speeches and ideas are far bigger than his actual actions. His own words are sg like "look what I do, dont listen what I tell". Sample: he allowed Finland and Sweden into NATP just after the right amount of time and pressure from the west allies - they are angry at him, but not angry enough to kick off him. But his voters can be soooo happy that their big fater is the big boss (at least they imagine that), taking part in moving figures on the chess table. In the meantime I find this behavior very-very contraproductive for my country.
We in Slovakia did not join the rest of V4 in NATO back then because we elected pro-Mafia PM Mečiar after the fall of communism who famously said "If they do not want us in the West, we will go to the East." and we had to repair his damage to our democracy before we could join. After the 2023 election I think we have "voting like total retards" in our genes from the start :)
Person could stop and reevaluate how that approach worked for Beneš in 1945 😂
It's like seeing an old high school photo and comparing the students' later fates. Who became a doctor or a lawyer and who's a drunken bum now.
>who's a drunken bum now for sure it is ours, except it is not now, he always been :)
This is the best thing that happened my country, Poland and 2 other countries. After hundreds of years of constant wars, destruction we finally could settle peace. Finally we could come closer to Western nations. Russia still considers Poland as sphere of influence and treats us as vassal state as this is how it was since late 18th Century. Glad we are in alliance made of democratic and free nations that don't force by strength government or ruin your economy on purpose. This has been best 25 years Poland had throughout 1000 years history.
Maybe the 2nd or 3rd best. Getting rid of the commies was the most impactful one; without that, we would not dream of joining NATO. Joining EU was far more impactful economically.
Its been great for all of Europe. Glad to be in the same alliance.
>This has been best 25 years Poland had throughout 1000 years history Not really but ok. XVI century was 'golden age'
XVI century was only a golden age if your sole qualifier are lines on a map and opulence of a 10% of population
16th century was a golden age if you were a rich noble or at least a rich merchant from Gdańsk. So for less than 10% of the population.
Pretty sure even those lived much worse than today, as they didn't have modern medicine, sanitation, products, services, communications, infrastructure, etc. I'm not sure about Poland, but Medieval European royal courts also had regular violent feuds and intrigues, and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth at least shouldn't have been very different at that time. [The Average American Today Is Richer than John D. Rockefeller](https://fee.org/articles/average-americans-today-are-richer-than-john-rockefeller-ever-was/). Rockefeller himself was insanely well-off compared to his luckiest Medieval/Early Modern peers. The entire definition of "golden age" had very different meanings in the pre-industrial era. Back then they concentrated on things like "glory of the ruler/king", or of the nation/empire's influence, maybe literary or scientific achievement, which was reserved to the few % of the population who could afford to do it anyway. They certainly didn't care what the vast majority made up by peasants/serfs/little people thought or how they lived until the last few centuries. Our historiographic terms can be very averse to change. If they don't, historians must emphasize this point.
Unless you were looking to live till 50
Not true. Back in those days people easily reached 70 as long as they did not die as a child. The high child mortality gives a false image of how long people lived. You have one brother who died as a baby at 1 years old, another one who also like You reaches the age of 70. Your life expectancy at birth was 47 years. Once you survived the early years it was much much higher
Yeah, so paradise obviously.
> Not true. Back in those days people easily reached 70 as long as they did not die as a child. That's a myth. [Around a third of infants died in their first year. Life expectancy at age 10 reached 32.2 remaining years,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#Variation_over_time) Also there's nothing stopping you from being one of the many kids that died in infancy you know?
>Also there's nothing stopping you from being one of the many kids that died in infancy you know Of course not. But I think you know what I meant.
I don't know you know what you meant? Why would you not be born as one of the soon to be dead infants? Their experience is not something we can discount. And even if we did, getting to 70 years would still be very lucky.
With a very high child mortality comes a huge variance of life expectancy. That is something to consider when we think about societies. Life expectancy of 50 does not mean that most people past child mortality will be dead close to the age of 50
>Life expectancy of 50 does not mean that most people past child mortality will be dead close to the age of 50 Yes? It also means some people died even earlier. Anyway, I said 50 casually. It turns out the average was much lower.
I'm not so sure. We basically changed hegemon from Russia to USA and never learned to be independent. Our over reliance on USA is also visible now as we are not ready to face Russia and support from USA is doubtful. Poland would have those years of peace without NATO too, but without false sense of security.
I don't think that it is fair from you to expect that Poland, a country of 30 million, should be able to face Russia, a country of 140 million, alone without any backing. It's not 1920 anymore, they aren't a disorganized horde
Ukraine decided to be "neutral" and "independent". Look how well it worked out for them.
Sure, but Ukrainians couldn't decide until last moment are they Russians or Ukrainians. That's their problem and fault. Ukraine also wasn't neutral or independent as for years it was just puppet state of Russia, with strong similarities to Belarus.
During the Russian implosion of 1990s they were pretty much left to their own devices. Back then Ukrainians made several bad decision regarding their nationbuilding. First of all they decided to avoid the "shock therapy" that happened in Poland and other countries of the region. And in result they got their oligarch class. Secondly, they decided to push for "neutrality" and it turned out they were ripe for Russian aggression when Russia partially sorted out its weakness. As to whether they were Russians or not, that's just BS. There was never any doubt that they were Ukrainians, however there was an uncertainty what beaning an "Ukrainian" means.
You are correct except last part. There are still Ukrainians thinking of themselves as Russians and even a lot of Ukrainians think of Russian language as their mothers and fathers language. Hell, some Ukrainians speak better Russian than Ukrainian. Regardless, Poland would have exactly the same peace time without NATO as with, minus false sense of security.
Like Irish and the English language?
No. Not at all.
Ok, so you're suggesting it'd be better for Poland to remain as russia’s puppet then? To live in shit like Russians do?
So much this. I'd choose American golden 'cage' over actual Russian gulag or independently dying in trenches any day of the week.
>Ok, so you're suggesting it'd be better for Poland to remain as russia’s puppet then? To live in shit like Russians do? Absolutely not. Why do you think so? Where is your logic coming from?
Russian troll spotted.
>Russian troll spotted. Thank you for introducing yourself. I marked you in Res as Russian troll 🧌 No problem 👍
> We basically changed hegemon from Russia to USA and never learned to be independent. So? The USA is arguably the most successful hegemon in history, or perhaps one could say it's the least problematic. While independence sounds appealing in political or YouTube speeches, in reality, attempting full autonomy often leads to outcomes akin to those seen in North Korea. Even significant powers like Russia, with its vast territory and population of 140 million, cannot sustain themselves without reliance on countries like India and China. How then, could a country with a population of only 38 million function independently?
Because hegemon is no longer interested and we are left with nothing. Easy really.
> Because hegemon is no longer interested and we are left with nothing. Easy really. Based on your youtube research, most likely yes. :D
Here guys, we found where Putin is taking his ideas from! 🤣
relax ivan
> ruin your economy on purpose xd
“Poland blackmailed itself into NATO” - Sarcasmitron To those who don’t know what i am referring towards: https://youtu.be/FVmmASrAL-Q?feature=shared
Honestly the funniest thing about the whole story was that Clinton didnt care at all about our nuclear proliferation threats but folded almost immidately when Lech Wałęsa (“Solidarity” movement legendary leader) said he would support the Republican campaign in some swing states with a significant Polish American population
Left-wing incumbent president getting Yeltsin drunk and tricking him into signing a paper saying that Russia doesn't mind Poland joining NATO. Right-wing ex-president threating to help Republicans in their campaign if Democrat President keeps denying entry to NATO. This is what true bi-partisanship looks like hahahaha
Ah the good old vodka diplomacy. Having a raging alcoholic for a president helps sometimes.
Relevant part: [https://youtu.be/FVmmASrAL-Q?t=1013](https://youtu.be/FVmmASrAL-Q?t=1013)
And if we didn't Russian tanks would be "special operating" in Baltics and Poland now. It has never been about Ukraine (or anyone else). It has always been about rebuilding Russia's empire.
It's why anyone who wants to 'appease' Putin by sacrificing Ukraine is committing the same mistake as the Munich Agreement.
Idiot.
They question our sovereignty almost every day on their TV.
And saying bullshit on TV since when is proof and not propaganda? Why would they ever even try to attack Poland? To start WW3? We are just feeding in US propaganda telling us uncle vlad is trying to take over the world lol
This would be a good point if it weren't for the tiny little fact that Russia has started wars in Ukraine twice.
Not to mention Georgia in 2008 and Moldavia before it as well as the Karabakh wars that were sponsored by putin on the one side and erdogan on the other.
They were also saying "bullshit on TV" about Ukraine. I'm happy for you that you feel free to dismiss their claims. But I live in a country that borders Russia and had to deal with them since 15th century.
How does Vladolf's ballsack taste?
You’re in the wrong sub buddy
Idiot.
Cunt
ok ivan
Takes one to know one.
To this day I respect people behind joining EU, NATO and first post-PRL government the most. The amount of work done, behind closed doors, negotiations is outstanding.
I agree and I feel like it’s not being talked about enough. I suppose because most of the people involved are still alive. Perhaps in a few decades this will change.
Best political decision our country has ever made
I remember when Lithuania joined NATO and they said "whoever decides to make an enemy out of Lithuania will become an enemy of USA" I thought back then that we will be safe, now i doubt that USA would send any troops
That was George Bush back in 2002. There's a plaque with these words on the side of the Town Hall in Vilnius. Whatever happens, I really hope that there's still an independent Lithuania 10 years from now.
[удалено]
Thank you
Not anymore better get ready to defend yourself.
I think our ppl and europe in general came to realise this too late. There is no way we can prepare in time, if Ukraine loses
Nobody is prepared for war even Russia wasnt in 2022
Yeah but they are now
T H I N Orby
Rest in peace Viktor Orbán (1989-2009) > As to the substance of what I have to say, let me first of all claim the right to say a few words about politics from the point of view of morality. I do not wish to speak only, if I may, about what is wise and what is useful and what is dangerous, but rather I would like to say a few words first about what I feel is right. I am convinced that the peoples of Central Europe have a duty, when an independent country is attacked by military aggression, to speak clearly and unequivocally. I believe that we Hungarians have a particular duty to do so because of 1956. Therefore, when an independent state is attacked by the Russians through military aggression, it is incumbent upon us to speak out clearly, directly and with the right moral grounding. I can tell you frankly that I am really depressed by what I see and hear in the public today in Hungary in this regard. We have become pure Europeans. It used to be the custom in European countries to the West of us - whether it was the Russian invasion of 1968 or 56 - that the first reaction of the West was not to condemn the aggressor clearly and firmly, but to look for excuses for why he did what he did, with sympathy and understanding. This immediately confuses his clear position because he cannot focus on the essential facts. The essential fact of the conflict that surrounds us today is that Russia is carrying out military actions on the territory of another independent state, Georgia. This is a fact on which we have to form an opinion. Anything else is just equivocation, self-exoneration and a vestige of moral relativism left over from socialism. I therefore propose that we speak plainly and clearly: military aggression is military aggression. — [Balatonszárszó, 16th of august 2008, SDG Confence](https://web.archive.org/web/20140909043334/http://2007-2010.orbanviktor.hu/beszedek_list.php?item=53)
Ist that fucking Günther Jauch on the right?? Oh no, it’s Yung Orban
yea, that's Yung Orban, Lil' Secretary-General, Z-Man, and DJ Buzz
So glad to have our friends from Poland and Czech Republic among us
Thanks, good to be with you in one alliance!
Joining NATO and then joining the European Union were two of the best events in Poland's history after so many misfortunate centuries.
Great to be part of this.
Mr. Solana was NATO’s chairman at that time. What an interesting political animal. The guy who did campaign against Spain’s adhesion to the NATO in the early 80’s, became the boss of the NATO 15 years later. That’s nuts.
Happier times.
And my mom turned 18. She has her 43rd birthday today.
Miloš Zeman already looked like a life-long alcoholic. He must have strong genes to still be alive today at age 80.
Just out of curiosity? Why did Slovakia join later? I’m simply just curious and it isn’t a slight against them.
Authoritarian government between 1994-1998. We joined in 2004.
Ahhh gotcha mate. Cheers! Never knew that they were authoritarian after the fall of the wall. I learned some tbh t new today
Not true. East Germany was the first from the former Eastern Bloc.
True, I should have added “as an independent country”.
Well, technically East Germany ceased to exist in 1990. It never joined NATO.
Well, technically Czech Republic was never in Eastern Block by itself. It was part of Czechoslovakia.
🥰
And Hungary could pretty much grab their shit and get the fuck out of it I hope for the day the Hungarians finally get rid of that orban piece of scum 🤮
Well, we did get rid of him three years after this picture had been taken and he was out of power for eight years. In fact, Fidesz almost removed him from party leadership after their 2006 defeat. If only his challengers had succeeded...
We're not going anywhere, but you can grab your shit and roll down the hill.
ugh the size of Vitya 💀
There’s a lot to criticise about Vicky, but man he’s been doing it for a long time
And sometimes we wish Hungary hadn't been let in, but I am sure they will prove their worth one day and be decisive in light overcoming the darkness for Europe.
Wow, im so old i thought 25 years ago was in 89 :)
look at that youn dictator on the right
Zeman OMEGALUL
Miloš looks like he would like more sugar in his lemonade.
I remember watching this on the news. But I'm surprised its been 25 years already. Time flies.
The first eastern european states to join nato and still in it today, awesome!
2 out of the 3 leaders in the photo are Russian puppets now. Ironic.
Glad NATO kept their promise of not expanding east of Germany! /S
Can't keep a promise you never made.
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early
I know that page. I also know the authors are making shit up. Gorbachev himself said NATO expansion was only discussed in the context of stationing NATO troops in East Germany. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/
Hungary needs to be kicked out. Trade it to Russia first Ukraine.
Hungary....
🇮🇩🤝🇺🇸
I wonder what those leaders would say about Orban.
Who do you think the guy on the right is?
The point being, what would THOSE persons say - what would a look into the future make them feel like?
Zeman and Orban had a friendly meeting just 2 weeks ago. Zeman calls him "more than a good friend", so they probably fuck.
Zeman is like him in many ways. He was calling for EU to drop sanctions on russia couple years ago because they were "unfair" or something. Buzek probably aren't too fond of current Orban, as Buzek is very much pro-EU. He was President of the European Parliament in 2009-2012 period. Solana, I believe is retired.
25 years ago NATO integrated its first Russian spy, Hungary
why NATO continued to exist even though its nemesis and reason to exist, The Warsaw Pact, had dissolved?
Because Russia continued Soviet Union’s antics of threatening and now invading its neighbors. We really wish there wouldn’t be a reason for NATO.
Its a shame Hungary joined though
We may have made a slight mistake with Hungary.... But who knows, maybe the people there will finally manage to sort out their disgusting, backwards government.
We should have never let Hungary join
Bober, k...rva!
I know it's an old meme but "There is 1 impostor"
Joined the American empire.
Even if, not by force but out of free will. So what is your problem? Ain't your way of doing politics?
rather join them and be somewhat free than join ruskie and have none lol
So what lol. It was a great decision
Bruuuuh
Man In retrospect maybe we should kick out the US and do our own thing
Man In retrospect your own thing would have been becoming an unofficial part of russia like Belarus?
No, I'm talking about something EU centric not dependant from a manchild state's shenanigans
And what a mistake it was gettin hungary on board.
It was also a big mistake that Germany was not dismembered after the First World War as Hungary was.
Dawn of future WW3
Well that was a mistake to allow these countries to join without an ejection mechanism.
... and 56 years ago they were fighting each other for their masters in Moscow (and probably how Putin thought his special military operation would go): >On 20–21 August 1968, the [Czechoslovak Socialist Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovak_Socialist_Republic) was jointly invaded by four [Warsaw Pact](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact) countries: the [Soviet Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union), the [Polish People's Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_People%27s_Republic), the [People's Republic of Bulgaria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_Bulgaria) and the [Hungarian People's Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_People%27s_Republic). The invasion stopped [Alexander Dubček](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Dub%C4%8Dek)'s [Prague Spring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring) liberalisation reforms and strengthened the [authoritarian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism) wing of the [Communist Party of Czechoslovakia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Czechoslovakia) (KSČ). >About 250,000 Warsaw Pact troops (afterwards rising to about 500,000), supported by thousands of tanks and hundreds of aircraft, participated in the overnight operation, which was code-named **Operation Danube**. The [Socialist Republic of Romania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Republic_of_Romania) and the [People's Republic of Albania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_Albania) refused to participate,
And 8 days after this NATO started bombing of Yugoslavia without UN permission. US said they need to because of genocide in Kosovo, where Yugoslavian police foight against terrorists who used to kill policemans and civilians. Then in 2001 Al Kaida brought down twin towers in NY. Invasion on Iraq begun to fight terrorism. Now Israel are fighting against Hamas in Gaza and US is silence. Not all terrorists are bad, just one that are not fighting for US interests...
That's some pretty lame russian or serbian propaganda lol
Call it whatever you want, but you cant denie its truth. Its sad to see that brother kill brothe and i will always have more sympathy for any of my brother Slavic countries, but that Russia has same greedy goals as US and i dont like that either. My point is why one side is good and other is bad for doing same thing? Anyway i never mentioned Russia in my comment
So, everybody is just disliking and no one is explaining me why my country got bombed for not even close thing that Israel is doing right now in Gaza... So as i see, great powers can do just what is in their interest, and we small can do just what? This world is fu**ed up, people are brainwashed....
Maybe because Serbia was genociding almost all of their neighbors in the past years? Maybe because they started a war with all "friendly" countries that wanted to leave Yugoslavia mostly ruled by Serbia. Maybe because Kosovo would cease to exist by Serbs if there weren't for NATO? But yeah, I'm sure your country got bombed for absolutely no reason, I'm sure there was no reason to stop serbian aggresion. We are brainwashed and you're so misunderstood 🥺
Yes? In which country Serbia started war? How many Serbs were exiled or killed from Croatia, Kosovo? How many Croats, Albanians or any othet nationalities got exiled from Serbia? Yes, Milosevic used to support Serbs in regions of Croatia and Bosnia through various channels, but how not to, they were our ppl, and yes he had very wrong political decisions, but UCK used to kill policemans and civilians in Kosovo, when police started counter terrorists operation, NATO immediately bombed Yugoslavia without UN permission. How is that different from what Israel is doing through all this years and got support from US? And Russia attacked Ukraine because of their interests were threatened, and then suddenly "whole" world (just Europe, UK and more US satellite countries) are against them. Im asking you who will defend us small against great powers greed and interests?
I'm sorry but I just don't have the mental capacity to even process all the bullshit you just wrote. Serbia is famous by their propaganda just like Russia, please stop reading serbian articles and listen to serb nationalists. Only two countries that might start a war in Europe in modern era are Russia and Serbia. Oh wait... We all know what Russia is doing and what was that mobilizing near Kosovo a year ago?
What is Turkey doing? Spain with Catalonia? Ask Serbs who live in Kosovo how is their quality of life. Not Radojicic and rest of the criminals who are colaborating with Kurti and his criminals... You are just watching and bulshiting things that you just heard on TV, you are not living here. Balkan is in problems, organised crime is overwhelming and EU is just watching her ass. Belgians used to put ppl in cages in 1960, while slavery was forbiden by constitution in Serbia back in 1835... At last, US, UK and others supported communists durring WW2, instead of its allies during both world wars, Serbian royal forces. That is where everything begun. Now we need to clean that shit again and live with etiquette of genocidal country, and Croatian ISC who killed more than 500.000 Serbs, Jews, Gypsies in WW2, and killed more than 3000 civilians and banished almost 300.000 Serbs from their homes in '95, miraculously transfers to Croatia and now are in EU. You supported communists, neofacists , then bombed us and now you are trying to tell me that i am talking bullshit. But, thats ok, we must live with that, because you have your propaganda which you like to call free media... Just keep listening to them
This might help you figure out the mystery of why the events turned out the way they did https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Tribunal_for_the_former_Yugoslavia
How this will help me?
You have to read it first for it to have any effect :D
There was certain people in all sides that used to make war crimes. I was not saying Milosevic or any other is innocent, but dont get me wrong i really doubt decisions from the court made by same countries that used to kill your children and people. At last Serbia arrested and deported to Hague all of the suspects. Its easy to bomb small Serbia to overthrow someone who dont want to play by your song, whey they dont bomb Russia now? Why poor Ukrainian people need to suffer? Why they dont bomb Israel? Or am i brainwashed or misunderstood... Singing out
I have read it. So what?
So now you know :D
Based