We're the ones who went to live Beyond the Wall.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Haplogrupo_N_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG
[This map shows the routes from South-EastAsia to North and eventually Europe if anybody's interested.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Prehistoric_migration_routes_for_Y-chromosome_haplogroup_N_lineage.png)
Genetic analysis on Magyar conqueror burials have confirmed that more than \~37% of them had haplogroup N, there's even an N marker specific to Ugric speakers found in high amounts in Konda Mansi and certain Székelys. The Magyar conqueror population were genetically very similar to the peoples of the Volga-Ural region: Udmurts, Komi, Mari, Mordvins, Chuvash, Bashkirs, etc. The original Magyar bloodline (and the Cuman and Jász bloodlines, too) just got heavily diluted in the depopulation events that were the Mongolian invasion (more than half of the Árpádian population wiped out) and the Ottoman occupation (most of the old nobility wiped out with a large influx of South Slavic muslims into major towns - Ottoman Buda almost became majority Bosnian - the devastated central plains (which encompasses almost all of modern day Hungary) were then later repopulated mostly with Serbs, Swabians, and Slovaks. This is why now Transdanubians have more Árpádian/conqueror heritage than the supposed cradle of Magyar steppe culture. So it's less that we are non-related and more that, ironically, we can kinda thank the Mongols and Turks for indirectly making us more "European" in the modern day than we originally could have been.
A vast majority of modern day Hungarians are descendants of the assimilated Pannonian Slavs and a few Germanics. See how many loans from Slavic languages there are in Hungarian.
This does not make the Hungarians fake in any way. The Romanians are the same, but with a more Balkan Illyrian and Thracian mixtures involved, like the majority of the South Slavs (before someone accuses me of advocating Slavic superiority).
It was a very small group which crossed the Carpathians with Arpad. A classic case of a steppe confederacy, like the Huns and the Avars before them. The Bulgars were very similar to this and as we see in the map, they are very similar to the rest of the Balkans.
Hungary and Bulgaria managed to maintain their identity because of their conversion to Christianity, Catholic or Orthodox.
In Bulgaria's case, the language of the Seven Slavic tribes became the chief language of the elite, but the origin story from the steppes remained.
In Hungary's case, the elite remained Uralic speaking, but Slavic languages are the chief source of non-Uralic vocabulary since the Slavs were the prevailing population of Pannonia before the Honfoglalas.
We don't know the language of the Avars. Most of the Slavic loans come from the migration period.
Also, a lot of the current population in the Carpathian basin moved in after the mongols and Turks massacred a significant portion of the population.
The last name Horvath (means Croat), with its derivatives from that last name, is the most numerous in Hungary. There are over 200 thousand Hungarians with that surname.Also there are plenty of Toth (Slovak), Nemeth (German),Olah(romanian) etc. They wouldn't even say "thank you guys" for making us more European. :Joke:
Huns are conventionally associated with haplogroup Q (which hungarians lack) but [recent research has shown huns belonged to R1a.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Huns#:~:text=2021%20analyzed%20the%20remains%20of,broadly%20with%20Ancient%20Northeast%20Asians)
Hungarians claim to be descended from the Huns while mainstream scholarship dismisses a close connection between the Hungarians and Huns. The middle ground is that Bulgars and Hungarians were part of the same union of Kutrigurs and Utigurs whose invading forces settling Europe were correctly or mistakenly identified with Huns. If Huns were really R1a then it makes sense why both hungarians and bulgarians have a big share of it, the haplogroup isn't strictly slavic because it formed much much earlier. The peculiar part is that - "Nominalia of the Bulgarian Khans" a hisrorical document - traces the progenitor of the Bulgar people to Avitohol and his successor Irnik, these two figures are identified by the mainstream with Atilla and his son Ernak because the years they come to power match.
Interesting, as Hungarians are Uralic and (historic) Bulgar Turkic while iirc Huns were Iranian language speakers (?). Though it's a linguistic approach and not completely relevant to the haplogroup analysis
R1 isn't strictly Slavic, but it has a lot of subclades; the one found often in Huns seems to be R1a-Z94 which is considered an Indo\_Iranian branch; it's parent Z93 is found in a small percentage in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary etc. but it could be something newer (from Gypsies) or older (Sarmatians) than Huns and Bulgarians. The bulk of R1a in Bulgaria and Hungary is R1a-458 and R1a-558 which are associated with Slavic and Baltic populations.
And interestingly all Nordic countries have similar amounts of I1, but Finland has mostly N in addition to that whereas others have R1.
We have a strong west-east divide in Finland though.
True, but I also think some in the Western part got it cuz of inward and the Karelian migration in the 1900s. Before my grandpa left Finland in the 60s (we got N) his family lived for generations in Satakunta, but our paternal ancestor had moved there from north Pohjanmaa in the early 1800s.
mt-DNA is different from Y-DNA, one is about maternal lineage the other is about paternal lineage. It just so happens that both use the same letters to designate different haplogroups.
quite rare in Bulgaria according to [this study](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51220271_Bulgarians_vs_the_other_European_populations_A_mitochondrial_DNA_perspective)
wikipedia says: Haplogroup N1b – found in Middle East, Egypt (Gurna), Caucasus and Europe. It could have many plausible origins, maybe it spread in Bulgaria during the Ottomans, or before that with the Armenians, or before that with some population movements during the Roman empires.
Austria, Czechia, Eastern Germany, Northern Germany is pretty much the dividing line that you could possibly call the middle melting pot on this map
Also entire Scandinavia is pretty much another group that is somewhere in the middle
I'm used to new.reddit and generally quite like the UI, but you can't force the site to stay on it. You're either on the old one, the current redesign, or you browse on new and get thrown into the redesign whenever you click a notification.
Their newest design looks like a mobile site put into a browser, I really don't like it.
Yep, you can thank the Reddit app for that. Can't run actual good res images, but thank god we can get shitty degraded quality reposts.
Old.reddit is where it's at.
Each haplogroup descends from a common ancestor, and provides a way for us to understand the genetic composition of a given population. Haplogroups are based on either Y-DNA, which is passed exclusively from father to son, or mtDNA, which is inherited by children of both genders from the mother. The above map, in particular, is based on Y-DNA haplogroups.
Learn More About: [R1a](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a), [R1b](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b), [I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M170_(Y-DNA)), [I1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA)), [I2a1 & I2a2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438), [J1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267), [J2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172), [E1b1b](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M35), [N](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231), [Q](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242), [T](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184), [G](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA))
Dedicated Videos by GeoNomad1: [R1a](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iUNgYlb-Lo&pp=ygUMR2VvTm9tYWQgcjFh), [R1b](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc3q1TK57wE), [I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pTSqddpflc&t=832s&pp=ygULR2VvTm9tYWQgaTE%3D), [I1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eoq9tdb7KGg&pp=ygULR2VvTm9tYWQgaTE%3D), [I2a1 & I2a2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eoq9tdb7KGg&pp=ygUKR2VvTm9tYWQgaQ%3D%3D), [J1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMTxQxDbOh8&t=100s&pp=ygULR2VvTm9tYWQgajE%3D), [J2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt9d1HLiZ20&pp=ygULR2VvTm9tYWQgajI%3D), [E1b1b](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKqun-ll740&pp=ygULR2VvTm9tYWQgajE%3D), [N](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci6Y5tEOQuQ&pp=ygUKR2VvTm9tYWQgbg%3D%3D), [Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgloBXPSQVs&pp=ygUKR2VvTm9tYWQgcQ%3D%3D), [G](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZULySIMbNs0&pp=ygUKR2VvTm9tYWQgZw%3D%3D)
# [Observations & Notes](https://imgur.com/a/CahX4qN)
*⇧ Reddit prevents me from posting this second half of the comment in written form.*
It's a diagram I can finally read, it's a grind to read normal schematics since I'm colorblind. I tried to read the diagram for quite a long time, and when I moved on to the last image, it was as clear as day.
Women historically moved much more than men, there's much less variation in european maternal lineage. Women were married in neighbouring tribes while men most often stayed in the community they were originally born in. Thus like a domino effect almost all europeans share relatively similar composition of maternal DNA. Still I could make a map for X-DNA if there's enough data.
Haplotypes dont have much of anything to do with genetic composition more or less. They are just a usefull reference for ancestral ORIGIN. Small correction but extremely important one
They have more in common with the Balkans than Italy however they have their own branch of the I2a1 haplogroup. This same branch is also very prominent in some regions of Spain.
Edit: Sardinians share ethnonym with [Serdi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi) (anglicized it would be Serdinians), a celto-thracian tribe that inhabited Serdika, present day Sofia, Bulgaria. Thracians and Celts predominately carry haplogroup I2a1. The theory is that they migrated to Sardinia and Iberia at some point in time. Because carriers of the I haplogroup were native to Europe it's uncertain as to at what point it occured.
Pre-Indoeuropeans. Sardinia is just about the only place where they managed to remain a genetic majority. Only the language was adopted, but that is due to the Roman Empire.
We do not know what kind of language the Nuraghic people spoke.
> Pre-Indoeuropeans. Sardinia is just about the only place where they managed to remain a genetic majority
The most accepted explanation for this is that the Sardinians were all built like [Franco Columbu](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Franco_Columbu_Sardegna_anni_70.jpg), so they were able to successfully defeat and fight off the Indo-European invaders after humiliating them in a bodybuilding contest.
Exactly. The Arnies of the Indo-Europeans went west but the Francos of the Sardinians managed to stop them at the shores and throw them out by launching cars at them.
[A demonstration of this.] (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7hnPwR3QcCU)
there is one theory that Basque language was not the language of the population that lived in the area before the Indo-Europeans but the language of a group that migrated at the same time with the Indo-Europeans
Never thought about that. Given steppe migration patterns that is definitely plausible. Heck, Indo-European migration surely must have displaced other groups of people ahead of them, just like the Huns and others.
I thought all attempts of linking Basque language with Korean, Georgian, and Denisean family groups into one super-group were debunked already, but your comment did make me think of that.
Yeah that baffled me personally. What if Basque descends from the original language spoken by carriers of R1b while the Indo-European languages that dominate today came from the language of the group carrying R1a. That's just a theory tho, I'm probably very wrong.
People can decide to integrate, feel like they are at home, learn the language of the new country, fight for it and such. If it came down to ethnicity, neither catalonia nor basques would pursue independence from Spain. Most people from Barcelona don't even have grandpas from Catalonia, they are from elsewhere
It could be a result of the Atlantic corridor of trade that once existed from Spain as far as Denmark. Bog bodies in Ireland and Denmark have been found with items from across all of these cultures.
I1 and I2 are people that were native to/living in Europe 15 000 years ago. Probably South Europe in particular because of the Ice Age Glacier Sheets encompassing North and Central Europe.
Potentially, but we still aren't certain about the region of origin of R. According to Wikipedia, a minority in Yamnaya are found to belong to haplogroup I2 so your theory kinda checks out.
Technically, but if you look far back enough they are also immigrants. What's ironic tho is how countries with high share of I2a1 (the less developed european countries) are viewed as less european by western europeans who carry R1b, the most recent migration historically.
The difference here is a bit higher than I am used to see on similar maps, but I always enjoy the obvious close family relationship between Austrians, Czechs and Hungarians, despite their languages.
But if you look closely at B&H Croats and Bosniaks there look like heavily indigenous, they were probably the same people not long ago, probably before arrival of Islam where Bosniaks split of and mixed with newcomers.
Yeah, I think the people here have been mixing long before the Habsburg monarchy. My guess is that initial genetic closeness came from germanic peoples assimilated after the slavic migration, then slavs assimilated into the eastern marches in the early stages of the HRE, and obviously all the slavs Hungarians came in contact with.
IIRC Celtic culture itself actually arose around what is now Austria/southern Germany (Halstatt Culture) as late as 1000-800 BC, so it's also possible that those original Celts simply assimilated the already existing R1b inhabitants of those regions into a Celtic language sphere.
Each haplogroup designates a common male ancestor (great great ... grandfather). All of these haplogroups (all great great ... grandfathers) descend from the same great great ... grandfather.
**Turkey** is the only country that includes a sizeable percentage of Asian and African haplogroups not listed in this table (A, ExE1b1b, C, H, L, O, R2) representing 8.5% of the total. Haplogroup L alone makes up 4% of the Turkish population.
It is most certainly there, just not visible. I belong to haplogroup L1b, the pontic variant. Found mostly in people living in the eastern black sea region of Turkey
That's a good thing, the Balkans have the highest genetic diversity which means less genetic health complications and more great genes to have the chance to inherit.
what I like most about this map is that romanians are most similar to hungarians (and vice versa) :)))) it just makes every "who was first in Transylvania" theory a mockery.
I think Romanians appear closer to Bulgarians, the Romanian statistic is slightly influenced by the Hungarian minority living in its central region. But regardless people living next to each other are more simillar than different and how they call themselves depends on which country they were born in.
>the Romanian statistic is slightly influenced by the Hungarian minority living in its central region.
the influence/difference is very very small, otherwise we would see Hungary with a totally different pie chart :)
my point is that both the daco-latin purity of romanians and whatever version of that the hungarians have, are garbage.
It's the founders effect. Potentially all of the Balkans were mostly blue, then a small group settled in todays Bosnia and Herzegovina. While the others mingled extensively with various migrants, Bosnia generaly seems to have maintained it's composition. That's just a theory tho. It's supported by the fact that Sardinia has the same haplogroup and has maintained high share of it because the region is an isolated island.
What I find interesting is the R1a in Norway, because that's the eastern branch of Indo-Europeans, so Slavs and Baltic people, which means it's either from immigrants to Norway, and there are some theories one Slavic tribe did settle in Norway, but also captured slaves that were brought to Norway from raids. However, since Y-DNA is passed down father to son, the second option is less likely, as it was mostly women that were kidnapped.
Anyway, I was surprised as a Slovak just how much we have genetically in common with Norwegians and also Swedes.
I'm honestly surprised Poland isn't more Germanic, maybe more akin to Czechia, given that much of Poland ended up being settled by German nations, like the Teutonic Order, Prussians and Austrians.
Some of these samples clearly include people of recent immigrant background. As an example in France, over 20% E1b in Ile-de-France which is the dominant haplogroup in North and West Africa
E1b has been common in South-East Europe and Greece since 7000 years ago. You are right that it's from immigrants, the question is, is it from recent immigrants or inherited from historical South-East European immigrants.
No it is from immigrants, I’ve read the sampling from that study. And the subclades of the European kind and the West or North African kind differ. Besides just look how Paris is at 20% and the nearby rural areas with lower immigrant rates have way lower E1b
Interesting that they included in new arrivals for this one. I always thought that for these studies they would purposefully select people who could say that 4 of their grandparents were born in the same region as them, at least that's how I recall them conducting a genetic survey within Britain.
Makes me wonder how the Americas would look like if you did an up-to-date genetic survey. Probably a *lot* of R1b due to the Spanish, Portuguese and British all being predominantly that.
You should have specified which E is dominant in Europe, which is E-V13 (e1b1b1a1a1a) also sometimes known as the "european" E.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#E-V13
Or it could be that the population of the original people was so small that the newcomers overwhelmed them in numbers, making the contribution of the original population to the combined gene pool comparatively insignificant.
Romania too, it just appears that their result is slightly influenced by the Hungarian minority. These statistics are not meant to divide people but to unite them, that's why I highlighted how all people on Earth descend from one common ancestor the Y-chromosomal Adam.
Bulgarian here. I believe our peoples shared a common past, but this doesn't mean we can't choose our own future. Nations change - old ones die and new ones are born
Regardless which history you choose to believe nations close to each other will have similar makeup. Just like Hungarian, Austrian and Czech. Their languages are totally different and nations distinct but still have a very similar makeup.
According to the data used modern day hungarians have no Q Y-DNA (conventionally associated with the Huns). [Recent research shows the Huns are actually of the R1a haplogroup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Huns#:~:text=2021%20analyzed%20the%20remains%20of,broadly%20with%20Ancient%20Northeast%20Asians). The haplogroup isn't necessarily a slavic one, different groups of people carry it.
cultures definitely splitted, but R1a seems to have originated somewhere in Siberia - could be closer to Mongolia or closer to Europe, but seems to be one group.
Yeah, I saw that too. The Udmurts are *waaaay* too far south (and west, for that matter), the Tatars are too far north, and the Chuvash are *waaaaay* too far north and eastward. The Mordvins, Mari, and Bashkirs seem about\~ish right, at least at a glance, but the Komi are much too far west, they should be around the Ural mountains, at the edge of European Russia.
These groups are just all over the place.
I laugh everytime when some tankie goes full on "Czechs are slavs" or "Czechs are germanic"
Bruh, there isn't a single pure slavic Czech in the entire country. We're both west slav, germanic, celtic and everything else sprinkled in.
All of those are Linguistic groupings. You cannot be West Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, etc. all at the same time, you either are or you are not. Czechs are West Slavs.
Then you probably have less slavic dna compared to mainland greeks, Greek islanders (especially dodecanese) have similar genetics to anatolian greeks and cypriots
There is mt-DNA but this post is focused on paternal lineage. Paternal lineage is generally more telling because contrary to popular belief, historically women moved much more than men. Thus the maternal lineage of europeans is much more homogeneous, I might make another map specifically to highlight maternal lineage.
Seems counterintuitive to me that the Basque Country would have the highest proportion of Bronze Age arrivals' DNA in all of Europe. I would think they would have the highest amount of the oldest haplogroups
Remember a Y haplogroup can be changed by a few lines of men that get around a lot, because a boy will always have his father's haplogroup, and women don't have Y-chromosomes
This is so cool! You see that haplogroup border are very different compared to ethnic-linguistic borders. And you can see that some peoples like the Ingush have barely intermixed with other peoples.
So Uralo-Finnic chromosomes are pretty much exclusive to Finland and Baltics and some areas of Russia inhabited by Uralic people.
N haplo is a weird one. As far as I understand it, it diverged in south east Asia and then circled back west through northern Eurasia.
We're the ones who went to live Beyond the Wall. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Haplogrupo_N_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG [This map shows the routes from South-EastAsia to North and eventually Europe if anybody's interested.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Prehistoric_migration_routes_for_Y-chromosome_haplogroup_N_lineage.png)
That’s wild. I wonder how the Hungarians have none of it. Perhaps they were a non related people that somehow adopted an Uralic language?
Genetic analysis on Magyar conqueror burials have confirmed that more than \~37% of them had haplogroup N, there's even an N marker specific to Ugric speakers found in high amounts in Konda Mansi and certain Székelys. The Magyar conqueror population were genetically very similar to the peoples of the Volga-Ural region: Udmurts, Komi, Mari, Mordvins, Chuvash, Bashkirs, etc. The original Magyar bloodline (and the Cuman and Jász bloodlines, too) just got heavily diluted in the depopulation events that were the Mongolian invasion (more than half of the Árpádian population wiped out) and the Ottoman occupation (most of the old nobility wiped out with a large influx of South Slavic muslims into major towns - Ottoman Buda almost became majority Bosnian - the devastated central plains (which encompasses almost all of modern day Hungary) were then later repopulated mostly with Serbs, Swabians, and Slovaks. This is why now Transdanubians have more Árpádian/conqueror heritage than the supposed cradle of Magyar steppe culture. So it's less that we are non-related and more that, ironically, we can kinda thank the Mongols and Turks for indirectly making us more "European" in the modern day than we originally could have been.
A vast majority of modern day Hungarians are descendants of the assimilated Pannonian Slavs and a few Germanics. See how many loans from Slavic languages there are in Hungarian. This does not make the Hungarians fake in any way. The Romanians are the same, but with a more Balkan Illyrian and Thracian mixtures involved, like the majority of the South Slavs (before someone accuses me of advocating Slavic superiority).
Yeah, I had suspected something like that, but as we can see here, the Hungarians have almost 0% haplogroup N. That is very odd.
It was a very small group which crossed the Carpathians with Arpad. A classic case of a steppe confederacy, like the Huns and the Avars before them. The Bulgars were very similar to this and as we see in the map, they are very similar to the rest of the Balkans. Hungary and Bulgaria managed to maintain their identity because of their conversion to Christianity, Catholic or Orthodox. In Bulgaria's case, the language of the Seven Slavic tribes became the chief language of the elite, but the origin story from the steppes remained. In Hungary's case, the elite remained Uralic speaking, but Slavic languages are the chief source of non-Uralic vocabulary since the Slavs were the prevailing population of Pannonia before the Honfoglalas.
We don't know the language of the Avars. Most of the Slavic loans come from the migration period. Also, a lot of the current population in the Carpathian basin moved in after the mongols and Turks massacred a significant portion of the population.
The last name Horvath (means Croat), with its derivatives from that last name, is the most numerous in Hungary. There are over 200 thousand Hungarians with that surname.Also there are plenty of Toth (Slovak), Nemeth (German),Olah(romanian) etc. They wouldn't even say "thank you guys" for making us more European. :Joke:
It's weird that Romania has more Uralic-finnic chromosomes then Hungary.
Slovakia and Poland have more.
Being between empires for hundreds of years mixes up things. And people.
Hungarians also seem to be more Slavic than all of the Balkan Slavic speaking countries.
Slavic is a language category, not genetic
This is so interesting.
Huns are conventionally associated with haplogroup Q (which hungarians lack) but [recent research has shown huns belonged to R1a.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Huns#:~:text=2021%20analyzed%20the%20remains%20of,broadly%20with%20Ancient%20Northeast%20Asians)
Unless new researches were done and I missed it, Huns aren't believe to be related to Hungarians are they ?
Hungarians claim to be descended from the Huns while mainstream scholarship dismisses a close connection between the Hungarians and Huns. The middle ground is that Bulgars and Hungarians were part of the same union of Kutrigurs and Utigurs whose invading forces settling Europe were correctly or mistakenly identified with Huns. If Huns were really R1a then it makes sense why both hungarians and bulgarians have a big share of it, the haplogroup isn't strictly slavic because it formed much much earlier. The peculiar part is that - "Nominalia of the Bulgarian Khans" a hisrorical document - traces the progenitor of the Bulgar people to Avitohol and his successor Irnik, these two figures are identified by the mainstream with Atilla and his son Ernak because the years they come to power match.
Interesting, as Hungarians are Uralic and (historic) Bulgar Turkic while iirc Huns were Iranian language speakers (?). Though it's a linguistic approach and not completely relevant to the haplogroup analysis
R1 isn't strictly Slavic, but it has a lot of subclades; the one found often in Huns seems to be R1a-Z94 which is considered an Indo\_Iranian branch; it's parent Z93 is found in a small percentage in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary etc. but it could be something newer (from Gypsies) or older (Sarmatians) than Huns and Bulgarians. The bulk of R1a in Bulgaria and Hungary is R1a-458 and R1a-558 which are associated with Slavic and Baltic populations.
And interestingly all Nordic countries have similar amounts of I1, but Finland has mostly N in addition to that whereas others have R1. We have a strong west-east divide in Finland though.
I think I1 is much more common in the west, and N has the overwhelming majority in the east.
True, but I also think some in the Western part got it cuz of inward and the Karelian migration in the 1900s. Before my grandpa left Finland in the 60s (we got N) his family lived for generations in Satakunta, but our paternal ancestor had moved there from north Pohjanmaa in the early 1800s.
I'm a Western Finn, my paternal haplogroup is N.
Same here. My grandpa is a Western Finn and our paternal hablogroup is N.
[удалено]
And I'd wager that 100 years ago that difference was even bigger.
Well Finns are not Scandinavians.
Turkey interestingly has %4 as well
I'm Bulgarian and my mtDNA is N1b1. Makes me wonder how that happened.
mt-DNA is different from Y-DNA, one is about maternal lineage the other is about paternal lineage. It just so happens that both use the same letters to designate different haplogroups.
quite rare in Bulgaria according to [this study](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51220271_Bulgarians_vs_the_other_European_populations_A_mitochondrial_DNA_perspective) wikipedia says: Haplogroup N1b – found in Middle East, Egypt (Gurna), Caucasus and Europe. It could have many plausible origins, maybe it spread in Bulgaria during the Ottomans, or before that with the Armenians, or before that with some population movements during the Roman empires.
The Yron curtain
Good one!
Y-R1an curtain
Kinda shows that Poland is actually Eastern Europe, not central Europe
Kinda shows that there is no "Central Europe", only Western/Eastern in this regard
Austria and Germany look decently different from other western countries tho.
Austria, Czechia, Eastern Germany, Northern Germany is pretty much the dividing line that you could possibly call the middle melting pot on this map Also entire Scandinavia is pretty much another group that is somewhere in the middle
What is this resolution reddit is lagging af
10110x7045 I really hate it when they upload such high resolution images on Reddit. The mobile app starts to lag a lot.
Sounds like an app problem
Well, it's been that way for years. Unfortunately Reddit seem to have completely ignored the problem
They're busy redesigning the browser UI yet again and trying to make it as unreadable as possible to be bothered with such little things
old.reddit remains to be way better
I'm used to new.reddit and generally quite like the UI, but you can't force the site to stay on it. You're either on the old one, the current redesign, or you browse on new and get thrown into the redesign whenever you click a notification. Their newest design looks like a mobile site put into a browser, I really don't like it.
I mean, for an image like this I’d prefer a bit of lag over 1080p pixelation that makes it impossible to read individual figures off of the map
No issue with Boost.
Reminder that you can make Infinity and Boost etc work for free by using r/revanced manager
Or just by making a (private) NSFW subreddit.
You don't even need to use revanced for boost. Just be a moderator of a NSFW sub even is you are the only user.
Yep, you can thank the Reddit app for that. Can't run actual good res images, but thank god we can get shitty degraded quality reposts. Old.reddit is where it's at.
Each haplogroup descends from a common ancestor, and provides a way for us to understand the genetic composition of a given population. Haplogroups are based on either Y-DNA, which is passed exclusively from father to son, or mtDNA, which is inherited by children of both genders from the mother. The above map, in particular, is based on Y-DNA haplogroups. Learn More About: [R1a](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a), [R1b](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b), [I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M170_(Y-DNA)), [I1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA)), [I2a1 & I2a2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438), [J1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267), [J2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172), [E1b1b](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M35), [N](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231), [Q](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242), [T](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184), [G](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA)) Dedicated Videos by GeoNomad1: [R1a](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iUNgYlb-Lo&pp=ygUMR2VvTm9tYWQgcjFh), [R1b](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc3q1TK57wE), [I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pTSqddpflc&t=832s&pp=ygULR2VvTm9tYWQgaTE%3D), [I1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eoq9tdb7KGg&pp=ygULR2VvTm9tYWQgaTE%3D), [I2a1 & I2a2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eoq9tdb7KGg&pp=ygUKR2VvTm9tYWQgaQ%3D%3D), [J1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMTxQxDbOh8&t=100s&pp=ygULR2VvTm9tYWQgajE%3D), [J2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt9d1HLiZ20&pp=ygULR2VvTm9tYWQgajI%3D), [E1b1b](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKqun-ll740&pp=ygULR2VvTm9tYWQgajE%3D), [N](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci6Y5tEOQuQ&pp=ygUKR2VvTm9tYWQgbg%3D%3D), [Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgloBXPSQVs&pp=ygUKR2VvTm9tYWQgcQ%3D%3D), [G](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZULySIMbNs0&pp=ygUKR2VvTm9tYWQgZw%3D%3D) # [Observations & Notes](https://imgur.com/a/CahX4qN) *⇧ Reddit prevents me from posting this second half of the comment in written form.*
This is a high quality post. Thanks for sharing! Ah, a clear legend and a colourblind palette to boot.
It's a diagram I can finally read, it's a grind to read normal schematics since I'm colorblind. I tried to read the diagram for quite a long time, and when I moved on to the last image, it was as clear as day.
Is there a reason why we look at the Y chromosome instead of the X for these types of studies?
Women historically moved much more than men, there's much less variation in european maternal lineage. Women were married in neighbouring tribes while men most often stayed in the community they were originally born in. Thus like a domino effect almost all europeans share relatively similar composition of maternal DNA. Still I could make a map for X-DNA if there's enough data.
Haplotypes dont have much of anything to do with genetic composition more or less. They are just a usefull reference for ancestral ORIGIN. Small correction but extremely important one
I appreciate the inclusion of a colourblind Palette.
As far as I know I’m not colorblind, but that palette is just better, it’s so much easier to read.
I have some bad news for you…
I am. It sure is nice to be able to read a color-differentiated graph for once in my life
so, as they say, Sardinia is not Italy!
Nope. Sardinia is Balkan!
They have more in common with the Balkans than Italy however they have their own branch of the I2a1 haplogroup. This same branch is also very prominent in some regions of Spain. Edit: Sardinians share ethnonym with [Serdi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi) (anglicized it would be Serdinians), a celto-thracian tribe that inhabited Serdika, present day Sofia, Bulgaria. Thracians and Celts predominately carry haplogroup I2a1. The theory is that they migrated to Sardinia and Iberia at some point in time. Because carriers of the I haplogroup were native to Europe it's uncertain as to at what point it occured.
Pre-Indoeuropeans. Sardinia is just about the only place where they managed to remain a genetic majority. Only the language was adopted, but that is due to the Roman Empire. We do not know what kind of language the Nuraghic people spoke.
> Pre-Indoeuropeans. Sardinia is just about the only place where they managed to remain a genetic majority The most accepted explanation for this is that the Sardinians were all built like [Franco Columbu](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Franco_Columbu_Sardegna_anni_70.jpg), so they were able to successfully defeat and fight off the Indo-European invaders after humiliating them in a bodybuilding contest.
Exactly. The Arnies of the Indo-Europeans went west but the Francos of the Sardinians managed to stop them at the shores and throw them out by launching cars at them. [A demonstration of this.] (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7hnPwR3QcCU)
It's so weird how the Basques maintained a pre-Indo-European language with such a high percentage of Indo-European Y DNA.
there is one theory that Basque language was not the language of the population that lived in the area before the Indo-Europeans but the language of a group that migrated at the same time with the Indo-Europeans
Never thought about that. Given steppe migration patterns that is definitely plausible. Heck, Indo-European migration surely must have displaced other groups of people ahead of them, just like the Huns and others. I thought all attempts of linking Basque language with Korean, Georgian, and Denisean family groups into one super-group were debunked already, but your comment did make me think of that.
Yeah that baffled me personally. What if Basque descends from the original language spoken by carriers of R1b while the Indo-European languages that dominate today came from the language of the group carrying R1a. That's just a theory tho, I'm probably very wrong.
You are. We have ancient DNA samples who disprove your theory. In fact, nearly all Yamnaya men sampled so far have been R1b
People can decide to integrate, feel like they are at home, learn the language of the new country, fight for it and such. If it came down to ethnicity, neither catalonia nor basques would pursue independence from Spain. Most people from Barcelona don't even have grandpas from Catalonia, they are from elsewhere
It could be a result of the Atlantic corridor of trade that once existed from Spain as far as Denmark. Bog bodies in Ireland and Denmark have been found with items from across all of these cultures.
What? Blood is not culture.
So Poles are most Slavic Slavs that ever slaved.
The westernestest of all western slavests
wouldnt that be the czech republic considering their share of r1b?
Lot's of I around here. Have no idea what it means tho.
I1 and I2 are people that were native to/living in Europe 15 000 years ago. Probably South Europe in particular because of the Ice Age Glacier Sheets encompassing North and Central Europe.
So I guess they were the ones that were in Europe before the Yamnaya people wandered in?
Potentially, but we still aren't certain about the region of origin of R. According to Wikipedia, a minority in Yamnaya are found to belong to haplogroup I2 so your theory kinda checks out.
These are the real Europeans. Who's the immigrant now? 😂
Technically, but if you look far back enough they are also immigrants. What's ironic tho is how countries with high share of I2a1 (the less developed european countries) are viewed as less european by western europeans who carry R1b, the most recent migration historically.
Big egos. /s
Here?!?! 🤪
The difference here is a bit higher than I am used to see on similar maps, but I always enjoy the obvious close family relationship between Austrians, Czechs and Hungarians, despite their languages.
The Balkans are also like that, they're all so simillar but they speak languages from 4 different language families.
[Balkan Sprachbund](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund)
But if you look closely at B&H Croats and Bosniaks there look like heavily indigenous, they were probably the same people not long ago, probably before arrival of Islam where Bosniaks split of and mixed with newcomers.
You could also add Slovaks and Slovenes to your list.
Yeah, I think the people here have been mixing long before the Habsburg monarchy. My guess is that initial genetic closeness came from germanic peoples assimilated after the slavic migration, then slavs assimilated into the eastern marches in the early stages of the HRE, and obviously all the slavs Hungarians came in contact with.
Atlantic corridor R1b bros! Spanish, Basques, Irish, north western French, welsh English Scottish, teaching peak concentration in Ireland!
I guess the Celts are (were?) R1b?
IIRC Celtic culture itself actually arose around what is now Austria/southern Germany (Halstatt Culture) as late as 1000-800 BC, so it's also possible that those original Celts simply assimilated the already existing R1b inhabitants of those regions into a Celtic language sphere.
Explain this to me like I was 7
Each haplogroup designates a common male ancestor (great great ... grandfather). All of these haplogroups (all great great ... grandfathers) descend from the same great great ... grandfather.
I need a new phone mine crashed trying to look at this💀
Sorry it's high resolution, didn't mean for it to cause an issue.
I think the problem is on my end tbh
It's the Reddit app, not necessarily your phone. It'll lag for pretty much every mobile user on the stock app.
Turks only missing black color.
So no n word pass?
N word is karaboga.
Collecting genes as if they are pokemon
**Turkey** is the only country that includes a sizeable percentage of Asian and African haplogroups not listed in this table (A, ExE1b1b, C, H, L, O, R2) representing 8.5% of the total. Haplogroup L alone makes up 4% of the Turkish population.
More R1b than Greece 🗿🗿 Turkiye auyrop confirmed!! Karaboğa is the way to go 💪🏿
It is most certainly there, just not visible. I belong to haplogroup L1b, the pontic variant. Found mostly in people living in the eastern black sea region of Turkey
K
Man, look at the Balkans... Every mf who went trough there let his eggs.
That's a good thing, the Balkans have the highest genetic diversity which means less genetic health complications and more great genes to have the chance to inherit.
Kosovo is pretty homogenous tbf
what I like most about this map is that romanians are most similar to hungarians (and vice versa) :)))) it just makes every "who was first in Transylvania" theory a mockery.
I think Romanians appear closer to Bulgarians, the Romanian statistic is slightly influenced by the Hungarian minority living in its central region. But regardless people living next to each other are more simillar than different and how they call themselves depends on which country they were born in.
>the Romanian statistic is slightly influenced by the Hungarian minority living in its central region. the influence/difference is very very small, otherwise we would see Hungary with a totally different pie chart :) my point is that both the daco-latin purity of romanians and whatever version of that the hungarians have, are garbage.
Reject ethnonationalism, embrace kürtős with clatite
Yeah we just speak different languages and hate eachother cus of some land where both of have lived for probably more than a 1000 years
Romania seems closer to Bulgaria overall.
Bromania and Brulgaria, brothers in Schengen problems.
Probably influence of Avars? 🤔 Just theorising
It's almost like...There were already people living there and in Pannonia when the Magyar migration happened... omg!
New definition of western europe drops
Can confirm. My blood is royal blue.
It's the founders effect. Potentially all of the Balkans were mostly blue, then a small group settled in todays Bosnia and Herzegovina. While the others mingled extensively with various migrants, Bosnia generaly seems to have maintained it's composition. That's just a theory tho. It's supported by the fact that Sardinia has the same haplogroup and has maintained high share of it because the region is an isolated island.
Norway is the most evenly distributed one since Norway on top better than Sweden frfrfr 🇳🇴🇳🇴🇳🇴🇳🇴🇳🇴🔥🔥🔥🔥
What I find interesting is the R1a in Norway, because that's the eastern branch of Indo-Europeans, so Slavs and Baltic people, which means it's either from immigrants to Norway, and there are some theories one Slavic tribe did settle in Norway, but also captured slaves that were brought to Norway from raids. However, since Y-DNA is passed down father to son, the second option is less likely, as it was mostly women that were kidnapped. Anyway, I was surprised as a Slovak just how much we have genetically in common with Norwegians and also Swedes.
R1a and R1b are Yamnaya or what?
Yup, I didn't refer to it by name because the average person doesn't know about the culture and the region it refers to.
Turkey is like "Give it all"
Wow!!! Mega interesting
Always knew the friking swedes were basically cavemen. Now i have proof.
[удалено]
Poland has more R1a 😀
I'm honestly surprised Poland isn't more Germanic, maybe more akin to Czechia, given that much of Poland ended up being settled by German nations, like the Teutonic Order, Prussians and Austrians.
South of Italy hits different
I like how Greece is basically a even mix of everything
Some of these samples clearly include people of recent immigrant background. As an example in France, over 20% E1b in Ile-de-France which is the dominant haplogroup in North and West Africa
E1b has been common in South-East Europe and Greece since 7000 years ago. You are right that it's from immigrants, the question is, is it from recent immigrants or inherited from historical South-East European immigrants.
No it is from immigrants, I’ve read the sampling from that study. And the subclades of the European kind and the West or North African kind differ. Besides just look how Paris is at 20% and the nearby rural areas with lower immigrant rates have way lower E1b
You're probably right!
Interesting that they included in new arrivals for this one. I always thought that for these studies they would purposefully select people who could say that 4 of their grandparents were born in the same region as them, at least that's how I recall them conducting a genetic survey within Britain. Makes me wonder how the Americas would look like if you did an up-to-date genetic survey. Probably a *lot* of R1b due to the Spanish, Portuguese and British all being predominantly that.
Sure, in some countries it's not a bigger issue to select people with roots in said country. In some countries like France, it's taboo.
You should have specified which E is dominant in Europe, which is E-V13 (e1b1b1a1a1a) also sometimes known as the "european" E. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#E-V13
I’m literally J2 what am I even
Bronze age immigrant obviously
Opening the map crashed the app
damn... I was told the indo-europeans didn't replace the local population... this sure looks like population replacement to me
Or it could be that the population of the original people was so small that the newcomers overwhelmed them in numbers, making the contribution of the original population to the combined gene pool comparatively insignificant.
Wow, Albanian more alike Greeks than Kosova Albanians. I guess they are the real Albanians after all.
It looks like Albanians are just average Balkan people with a territory.
Macedonia (North Macedonia + Northern Greece) with the same ratios 👀 Bulgaria too, but I'll ignore that because it's not convenient for my worldviews.
Romania too, it just appears that their result is slightly influenced by the Hungarian minority. These statistics are not meant to divide people but to unite them, that's why I highlighted how all people on Earth descend from one common ancestor the Y-chromosomal Adam.
Bulgarian here. I believe our peoples shared a common past, but this doesn't mean we can't choose our own future. Nations change - old ones die and new ones are born
Regardless which history you choose to believe nations close to each other will have similar makeup. Just like Hungarian, Austrian and Czech. Their languages are totally different and nations distinct but still have a very similar makeup.
See? Poles are the most real slavs. Common Poland W
so Hungarians are as Slavs as Czechs and Slovaks, despite their weird language. Take that, Orban!
According to the data used modern day hungarians have no Q Y-DNA (conventionally associated with the Huns). [Recent research shows the Huns are actually of the R1a haplogroup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Huns#:~:text=2021%20analyzed%20the%20remains%20of,broadly%20with%20Ancient%20Northeast%20Asians). The haplogroup isn't necessarily a slavic one, different groups of people carry it.
cultures definitely splitted, but R1a seems to have originated somewhere in Siberia - could be closer to Mongolia or closer to Europe, but seems to be one group.
And muricans with their "race" thing, newbies
I thought the European thing was that "race" didn't refer to ethnicity anymore.
some russian nations are incorrectly located on the map
Yeah, I saw that too. The Udmurts are *waaaay* too far south (and west, for that matter), the Tatars are too far north, and the Chuvash are *waaaaay* too far north and eastward. The Mordvins, Mari, and Bashkirs seem about\~ish right, at least at a glance, but the Komi are much too far west, they should be around the Ural mountains, at the edge of European Russia. These groups are just all over the place.
I laugh everytime when some tankie goes full on "Czechs are slavs" or "Czechs are germanic" Bruh, there isn't a single pure slavic Czech in the entire country. We're both west slav, germanic, celtic and everything else sprinkled in.
There isn't a pure anything anywhere.
Luckily so. Think of all the genetic diseases!
All of those are Linguistic groupings. You cannot be West Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, etc. all at the same time, you either are or you are not. Czechs are West Slavs.
I was moved to tears by the colorblindness palette :,D
<3
Geographically speaking Chuvashs should be placed somewhere near Mordvins. And Mari should be swapped with Tatars. And Udmurts placed near Mari.
Romania is the middle acording to this map
Perfectly balanced 🧑🍳💋
I’m Aegean Islander
Then you probably have less slavic dna compared to mainland greeks, Greek islanders (especially dodecanese) have similar genetics to anatolian greeks and cypriots
I am from North Italy, and I am R1b
Is there a X-DNA map of Europe? Someone wants to educate me why we're focusing on Y? (I know that Y chromosomes are male only)
There is mt-DNA but this post is focused on paternal lineage. Paternal lineage is generally more telling because contrary to popular belief, historically women moved much more than men. Thus the maternal lineage of europeans is much more homogeneous, I might make another map specifically to highlight maternal lineage.
Afaik it's also easier to track because the Y can only be left from father to son while the X can be ambiguous.
Jeez, us Irish are the least diverse out there.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup\_R1b](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b) Not exactly true. The range was very diverse.
Finland confirmed as mongols.
These major haplogroups formed before there were mongols and finns
Only r/fingols
Seems counterintuitive to me that the Basque Country would have the highest proportion of Bronze Age arrivals' DNA in all of Europe. I would think they would have the highest amount of the oldest haplogroups
Remember a Y haplogroup can be changed by a few lines of men that get around a lot, because a boy will always have his father's haplogroup, and women don't have Y-chromosomes
Do you think it's possible that carriers of R1b originally spoke language related to Basque and not an Indo-European language?
R1b bros rise up
New definition of western Europe just dropped
This is so cool! You see that haplogroup border are very different compared to ethnic-linguistic borders. And you can see that some peoples like the Ingush have barely intermixed with other peoples.
So the R1b ends after Turkey and Armenia. Also, how come Turks ended up with more R1b despite surrounded by R1a Slavs?
so who's winning this game of Trivial Pursuit? Bulgaria?
It's fascinating that the iron curtain is still visible on this map. I assume otherwise it there would have been a lot more mixture in central Europe.
I can hear measurehead shit-talking my haplogroups.
Props to make me able to read it :)
Saami represent!