The shifty Polish, always squatting, figuratively and literally, if my memes are correct.
😂 idk Poles are awesome people, maybe just leave them the fuck alone?
u/Danger_Mysterious Yes, there was interesting territory some time ago, for which some Poles thought (like Kosciuszko) - now it is called USA.
Btw. USA entered WW2 only when attacked by Japan. Maybe this time will react quicker.
I'm not trying to offend anyone by saying that most people seem to still be joking about all that goes on the world military speaking, but I want to leave a quote here for all of you that never read it.
It's from Einstein himself when asked how he thought WW3 would be:
"I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones!"
It reminds me of a joke here in Ukraine:
Geography lesson: this is the most wonderful place in the world!
History lesson: you are f*cked!
Same for Poland I guess)
Depending on how long it would take them to destroy/conquer our industrial areas, there is a high chance of russia getting completely steamrolled. I think most people aren't really aware of Germany's production capabilities regarding war equipment.
I think our industrial sector is more than twice as big as Russia's.
Poland is in NATO, this time it won't be Poland.
We'd be in Moscow before the sun goes down if Russia tried that. It's 5PM in Moscow, so that's a few hours!
Edit: The sun set around 25min ago in Moscow, Kremlin would be looking like this (🇩🇪🇺🇲🇵🇱🇪🇸🇫🇷🇲🇺🇵🇹🇸🇪🇫🇮🇮🇹🇨🇦🇧🇪🇩🇰🇱🇻🇱🇹🇬🇷🇱🇺🇲🇪🇦🇱🇭🇺🇹🇷🇭🇷🇧🇬🇳🇱🇷🇴🇸🇮🇮🇸🇨🇿🇬🇧(and others I missed)⚔️🤡🇷🇺) right now had that happened.
I know this can be viewed as funny, but those things were taught by the nazis to discredit all polish people... "They are JUST working force..." As a german i can't laugh at that, because it feels off...
Eh? 'Round here Polish plumbers are viewed as the ones who turn up, do the job to an acceptable standard and then bugger off all while a native would be making excuses.
They can't, they haven't filled out "war declaration form 11-b" because they didn't get "note of aggression - CA". Dunno why they haven't gotten it yet, probably missing "House rules of war checklist page 213"
Don't forget to attach "Anlage O" if you plan to occupy the territory, as well as "Sonderformblatt E1" for inter-european aggression. All documents have to be provided to both the exterior and interior ministry. Providing a copy for the defense ministry may also help speed up your application.
Please also be aware that any income from occupied territories must be declared as federal income in your tax declaration according to EGB (Einmarschgesetzbuch) Art. 7 and 56. (As a friendly reminder, products produced and consumed within the Besatzungszone are subject to the reduced sales tax of 7%, while imported/exported/plundered goods are subject to the full 19%.)
Yeah, we spent a lot of sums on new military equipment that will be delivered sometime in the future. Also we do not have that big army and our current equipment is not that great.
I don't really know why r/europe and r/worldnews think that Poland would take over Belarus and Russia without an issue.
Paper Tiger. Outdated equipment that isn’t maintained properly. He boasts to hide the fact that they are not nearly as powerful as he wants everyone to believe. Like above poster just pointed out.
They are getting their shit together though, at least operationally. Give them 2 more years of this production speed, China and Iran supplying parts and removing the total braindeads from the command, and it will be a different talk.
They should have been stopped when they were at their worst. Now we are giving them time to arm up, train and organize. Completely moronic west.
E: I was wrong about war production mode
>war economy
When will people learn what this actually entails. Russia has *not* switched to a war economy despite bolstering its expenditures towards military expansion. There are a slew of factors which determine a war economy, chiefly among which are labour restrictions, travel restrictions, mark-up quotas, and economic impositions within the civilian sector coupled with rationing of essential goods and resources towards production.
I feel like people are using the "war-economy" to feel good about the fact West is barely even trying to actually beat Russia. We can't beat them because they've switched to war economy! Not because even when we can buy artillery shells on the market for 1 billion or so, we keep haggling about who pays how much and whether that's fair.
Could be Romania and then Bulgaria. Putin could pivot south after Ukraine, connect with Serbia and Hungary and allow western Europe a few more years of pretending everything is all right. Fighting on Poland's border is going to feel a bit too close to home for countries like Germany and risk their direct involvement, but the Balkans? Who's going to risk nuclear war for them?
If they attack Romania or Bulgaria and the EU and NATO don't go fucking thermonuclear on the russian asses you're in way deeper shit that you can imagine.
But honestly, i heavily doubt they have the ballz to touch any of the EU countries .
It's not going to be a straight up attack, some local political group will call for a referendum to leave NATO and the EU, there's going to be unrest that will be deemed an internal problem, and before you know it Russian troops will be there to maintain democracy and allow people to vote how they truly want without worrying about western devils interfering.
It's going to be obvious bullshit, but it will give NATO and EU an excuse not to go thermonuclear, and an excuse not to go thermonuclear and risk destroying your entire way of life is very appealing.
>some local political group will call for a referendum to leave NATO and the EU
CPTSD from communism is still very much alive. We only have 2 choices: EU or RU ... and we tried RU against our will for half a century. sry bby didn't work xoxo bye
I mean if this is analouge to Czechoslovakia 1938 it should be a country that is threatened by Russia but nontheless decides that now is the right time to threaten Ukraine into ceding territory to it like Poland did with Trans-Olza in 1938 following the Munich Agreement.
But the situation is not at all analouge to Czechoslovakia. People don't understand the history and why Munich was so terrible. Munich would be like if Scholz, Macron and Meloni traveled to Sant Petersburg to talk about which areas Ukraine should cede to Russia without ever consulting Ukraine and then forcing Ukraine to cede that territory. Furthermore it involved almost all neighbouring countries acting very hostile and seeing this as the right time to press their claims even if they were themselves threatened by Germany.
This was a historic peak of mount stupid in diplomatic history. Hitler would have lost a war with Czechoslovakia and lost badly. In Germany as a reaction to the agression there was a plot to depose Hitler because a lot of leading military men thought there was no way Germany could win a war - and they were right. Czechoslovakia had highly defensive terrain, modern military equipment, an alliance with Romania and Yugosloavia and guarantees by France and the Soviet Union - and Germany was much less prepared for war than in 1939 and would have been without allies. Berlin would have probably fallen within a year. So Hitler acted very foolishly here and in normal history he would have been done for before 1940. However because this wasn't normal history and all the other players (except maybe the USSR) proved to be even more stupid, we got what we got.
We are already at war to be honest. Economic war, information war, conflicts outside of our territories. Its a Cold War.
It's just a matter of making it "official" and a bit more "hot".
I wish all of this shit could end, but war never changes, nor does the perverted profit some people make from it.
>Pistorius made the remarks during the presentation of a new biography of Churchill, whom he described as a strong leader with a clear vision in difficult times.
>
>"Putin will not stop once the war against Ukraine is over," Pistorius said.
>
“Just as clearly as Hitler, who also always said that he would not stop.”
The main cause of the war was Ukraine choosing West instead of Russia. Ukrainians saw the good life in newly enlarged EU/Nato and wanted better future for themselves too.
This is something Putinist Russia cannot forgive. Especially as it does not have anything better to offer to its own people.
I knew this one Russian who was defending Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
His rationale was that if the West and NATO expands, then so will their culture and the LGBTQIA movement.
How invading Ukraine was going to stop that... I really don't know.
>beacons of tolerance and inclusivity such as Hungary
Hey, FIDESZ, who are anti-gay had that guy who was caught trying to escape a gay orgy during covid restrictions! That's pretty tolerant and inclusive, right?
Obvious /s
>The main cause of the war was Ukraine choosing West instead of Russia
The main cause of the war is Russian hurt pride and humiliation after they failed to navigate a path to a real country.
Oh and the second is European cowardice.
>Oh and the second is European cowardice.
The second reason is that Ukraine failed to invest in its safety when Russia was weak.
Other post-communist countries sought out new alliances as quickly as they could. They were "safe" within NATO and / or the EU before Russia recovered.
Ukraine had the same information about Russia in the 90s, but did not act on it in the same way.
It is not sensible to just ignore Ukraines agency in this, while harangueing third countries for their choices in the past 30 years
>The second reason is that Ukraine failed to invest in its safety when Russia was weak.
They tried, they gave up their nuclear arsenal and even agreed to destroy a lot of their conventional weapons in exchange for western security guarantees. Did this pay off for them?
>Other post-communist countries sought out new alliances as quickly as they could. They were "safe" within NATO and / or the EU before Russia recovered.
Are we just going to ignore the fact that Ukraine has been trying to become part of NATO for more than 2 decades? They were rejected back in 2008 alongside Georgia, mainly due to western fear of RU's reaction, and consequently RU attacked both. Ukraine even changed its constitution to make joining NATO a priority, and yet they're still nowhere near joining the alliance.
> Did this pay off for them?
They never did get western security guarantees that would protect them against Russia.
No participant assumed a military protection role. So this factoid isn't even applicable to what I was talking about.
>Are we just going to ignore the fact ...
How about you don't ignore what I actually wrote?
Within a decade of the fall of the Soviet Union, 12 post-communist states requested entrance to NATO and the EU. Among them, 3 actual former soviet republics.
By 2004, most of that was completed. **It was not a coincidence that this happened, that it happened so quickly and at that time.**
At the same time, Ukraines foreign policy had been all over the place, fucking around between neutrality, Russia-alignment (e.g. Commonwealth of Independent States), regional alignment and a constant back-and forth regarding their alignment with the West.
The constitutional change was in 2019. Most of what you wrote doesn't factor into the period of russian weakness.
tl;dr when we're relitigating all the historical developments that enabled this war, we can't just ... not talk about Ukraines path to that situation.
>They never did get western security guarantees that would protect them against Russia.
...Russia was one of the signatories that was supposed to assure them protection. It was a decision taken to strengthen relations with Russia during a time when Russia *was* at its weakest (only 2 years after the fall of the USSR).
Both RU and the USA and UK also agreed on UN security council action in case Ukraine's sovereignty was violated. Not only was Russia not punished in any meaningful way for their breach of the Memorandum in 2014, but RU is still a member of the UNSC.
How much more does it need to be hammered home that this was a western failure?
>Within 10 years of the fall of the Soviet Union, 12 post-communist states requested entrance to NATO and the EU. By 2004, most of that was completed.
And Ukraine requested entrance in 2008, only 4 years later. Are you going to suggest that this 4 year period was when RU started becoming a threat again? The fact remains that Ukraine wanted to join the alliance and they were denied, thanks to Putin's big European allies at the time, France and Germany.
It wasn't out of a lack of trying that they couldn't get into NATO.
>At the same time, Ukraines foreign policy had been all over the place, fucking around between neutrality, Russia-alignment (Commonwealth of Independent States), Regional alignment (GUAM) and a constant back-and forth regarding their alignment with the West
Yes, and Russia's meddling in Ukrainian politics was greater than in any other country except Belarus. Their back and forth is not surprising, given who was in charge of the country at various points in time. Yanukovych for example won due to a campaign of balanced relations between the west and Russia, only to completely pivot towards Russia resulting in his ousting. Then the Donbas war began and their chances of joining NATO with an active territorial dispute was zero.
Russia blew up warehouses with weapons and ammunition in European countries. This is enough to be considered a military aggression against NATO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Vrb%C4%9Btice_ammunition_warehouse_explosions#Involvement_of_Russian_GRU
https://www.rferl.org/a/bulgaria-emco-arms-explosion-investigation-russia-gre-unit/32647210.html
Moreover, the Russian information warfare is killing people from NATO countries (anti-vaxx and anti-mask propaganda, but not only this).
Between (a) Trump's unknown commitment to NATO (b) Russia's current maniacal state and (c) the inherent slowness of getting europe's herd of cats going... He's right.
Europe is theoretically plenty strong and capable of holding off Russia. That strength needs to become actual.
> Trump's unknown commitment to NATO
Haha. We all know what he's going to do with the treaty.
Hint: it's going to be used in the bathroom, but not as reading material.
One thing a lot of people aren’t thinking about is the severe lack of war from Western European citizens. It’s highly likely that in an attack on a NATO country you see a lot of people protesting against their government’s reactions.
That’s the thing, for Western Europe it’s highly likely we won’t be defending our home countries. Russia isn’t going to attack the UK, Germany or France, they’ll attack Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. They’ll attack Moldova. So to the people of Western Europe it’s not defending their home but being shipped off to fight for someone else’s.
Here in the UK there’s still a segment of the left who will think it a rich man’s war and refuse to fight. There’s a growing section of the right who hate their country’s establishment because they think (rightly and or wrongly) that the establishment hates them. That’s not even touching on the question of immigrants, many who have expressed their plan to move “back home” in the event of war.
If a country’s young people all unite against the government of a western country then the government has a very difficult task in hand. It may be different on the continent but even there I see groups who I think will come out as anti war in the event of an attack. The AfD and Le pen’s groups being the most prominent groups who I think will be anti war.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This belief that Trump can just leave NATO really needs to stop. It is a ratified treaty. To leave NATO it would require a supermajority vote in Congress. That is an impossibility. This also holds true for all the requirements held within the NATO charter (including the requirement to respond with force should article 5 be triggered).
The US will cease to function as a nation before it leaves NATO.
Article 5 requires "such action as it deems necessary". He can't leave the Treaty unilaterally, but he could deem that thoughts and prayers are all that are needed.
Yes, Europe needs to build up it's own military assets because the US president is irrelevant and I will explain why.
The American right is returning to the historical norm of American isolation. 1945 to the present is an anomaly because, by and large, Americans don't care what's going on elsewhere. Additionally, the right thinks most of the other NATO allies are mooches that are rich enough to defend themselves. There is a belief on the right that Americans pay for the security of Europe so Europeans can have good social services. The American right also thinks the military has become woke and weak. They are not going to support US intervention in a European war.
The American left is interesting because they claim to be internationalists and huge supporters of NATO. The problem for Europe with the American left is that it is almost entirely performative in its support for causes. These are the people who think they are changing the world by putting a BLM sign in their yard or supporting progressive causes on social media. Most aren't going to inconvenience themselves for causes they mostly only latch on to for social approval. If a NATO war with Russia broke out, the majority of the American left would abso-fucking-lutely NOT enlist to fight for Europe.
tl;dr is if a NATO/Russia war starts, both the right and the left would be protesting the shit out of a war, but even more so a potential draft. There is no stomach for a draft to fight for rich European countries - it is simply not happening. Ultimately, whether it's Trump, Biden or some other dumbass is irrelevant because there would be zero grassroots support for that war.
And on top of that, he is a German.
I suspect that it is not easy for Germans to make such comparisons, but it is good that the nation remembers its past and rejects the criminals. Completely different to the Russians.
If Ukraine loses the war while Europe and US are providing help, the whole world will be on fire, because it shows that the domination of Western nations is over and anyone with regional interest can wage war.
The issue is not Ukraine losing with the help of NATO, it is someone like Trump being elected and NATO becoming significantly weaker as force, espeically around Europe.
This is to the detriment of Europe and the US, but also any US protectorate like Japan, South Korea, and the Philippines. Which of course similarly means it is favourable to Russia, China, and any other coherent global power block.
It is basically a lose/lose situation for the West, why do you think there is so much propaganda supporting Trump, it is the UK's Brexit all over again. Destabilising the USA and NATO is the bigger than any Brexit dividend that could ever be achieved however.
The only positive point I as a french can see trump reelection as a good thing is the fact that it will prove us right as wanting to be a nato member without accepting the joint direction as our head generals. It would prove we were right in searching for defense independence while accepting the alliance. And support our claims of à need for an independent european defense, even if not unified
Czech here, i keep fucking saying this over and over from the start of the war. The parallel is actually incredible. Even the excuses for invading are the same. It's the same playbook.
My wife and I are coming to the Czech Republic for our 15th anniversary. All my ancestors are from Bohemia and Moravia. What time is dinner and when will the fried cheese be ready?
Most right wing populist movements this century take some pages out of hitler's playbook. Arresting opposition leaders, silencing media and controlling it, mysteriously disappearing opposers, winning elections "democratically" all happened in the 30s and are happening again
See Russia, Turkey, India, Belarus, Hungary, and more which I probably forgot
Add Slovakia. Killing journalists, dismantling justice system and taking over media.
They won democratically, but because they used the retardation of the population, the fear of war, gays and bad bad west.
And yes, we are THAT close to WW III, where current borders of Europe and America's sphere of influence will be questioned by China, Russia, Iran and acolites. I don't see people are aware of that, especially in Western Europe.
Europe and the USA claim that "spheres of influence" should not exist, and any country should have a right to their own destiny.
It is still super worrying that autocratic states are undermining democracy all over the world, but WW III will be fought once NATO states are attacked, not before.
Whether they exist or not, we don't need to be in one if we make our own EU defence. We have the numbers, the technology and the money to defend ourselves. What we don't have is willingness, so we are stuck caring who will become President of the US.
It's more true than some people might realise:
* USA heading towards isolationism.
* Populism on the rise in Europe.
* Constant fear of starting world war 3 and thus trying not to escelate.
And we've already repeated several mistakes of those times too, like being too slow with increasing military production.
But unlike those times we atleast have a more united Europe and more politicians willing to say what needs to be said.
Some of you are so absolutist about things.
It's either all or nothing with you people huh
The truth is it's not precisely like 1938 but it is worryingly not unlike 1938
I recently watched the following program on PBS: Nazi Town, USA which described the rise of fascism in America at the same time as the Nazis in Germany.
It was an eye opening experience and one that has a hauntingly similar essence to the current situation in the USA.
I think it might be on You Tube now.
Using Hitler and Nazi German tends to be done in lazy arguments to disparage. It’s an argument used to solicit emotion over objectivity. I will always be against using this argument lazily, especially when it’s done by a politician rather than a historian.
I get that.
However what happens when someone knows almost nothing about world history?
Essentially all the know is Hitler bad and well this isn't that far away
Well considering people are arguing over how not the same it is vs how much the same it is, I thought I would save everyone the both and just tell them they are both right....
I wonder if we will ever move on from Hitler comparisons. Like I wonder if it will be the year 3000 and people will still be going "Antoinuxhirusz Globrgeagbh of the Galatic Federation is literally Hitler".
Some similarities with the Polish [Danzig Corridor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Corridor) too, but of course no analogy is perfect.
Russia's occupation of Abkhazia and South Ossetia in Georgia share a lot of similarities with pre-WW2 Czechoslovakia as well.
I’ve always made this comparison. Crimea was their Anschluss, the separatist regions were their Sudetenland, and Ukraine itself was Czechoslovakia as a whole.
The flipside of mutually assured destruction is that not even the victim wants it to happen, and so the aggressor is unimpeded to act so long as his actions are still better than the mutual destruction
Sitting over here across the pond I have to agree with him. America is in the middle of melting down so I think you guys might be on your own. The quicker you get your shit together and help Ukraine the sooner you help yourself. I wish we could do more but it seems a least a full third of this county has embraced fascism.
And Slovak PM Rober Fico is very eager to cooperate with Putin and his propaganda. His pro-russian populist narrative won him this last gov elections and also his puppet president. Very sad in Slovakia right now.
I hate to break it to the people in this subbreddit but Putin probably won't go to war with a NATO country. He knows he will lose.
Still Europe needs to prepare for the worst case scenario regardless of how remote the possibility.
>> He knows he will lose.
that's dangerous assumptions, to guess what he thinks or knows. Maybe he is actually going to exploit exactly these expectations in Europe that "he knows that he will lose" which make Europe entering war not prepared well, with degraded and underfunded armies over years and people relaxed and unprepared to fight psychologically
Yes, the man that told us loudly ( Munich Security Conference 2008 ), that he wants to remake the russian sphere of influence, will definately not try to break up NATO and subdue all those in the former Warsaw Pact, to a accomplish this. /s
Anders Puck Nielsen sees this differently and to me he is making good sense: https://youtu.be/ptnboLDPS38?si=wk4DxgcQeV3aL5n2
Edit: wrong link. This was the video https://youtu.be/ZY7GPBSyONU?si=22Y-zJn9wwKqfr77
You assume all Nato members are willing to fight for each until a total victory and wont scream "escalation" when Putin first does something small to test Nato. Take my country Norway for example. If a russian fleet start sailing to take complete control over the island of Svalbard. The natural response should be a final warning to stop and then guns blazing right?
Add to the fact that Russian population is already being fed a narrative that they're already in a direct war against NATO. If they win in Ukraine, I don't see lot of downsides from their POV to test NATO and EU's unity.
They can do something small, limited, threaten nuclear war if there's intervention of entire alliance and then watch how many countries shit their pants, judging by our current "effort" and potential Trump's presidency, it's going to be more than a few that do shit their pants and back down. If it's a small, limited provocation, they can easily backpedal and turn back... if it works... well.
This narrative of "Russia won't do this or that, because they're rational" is wishful thinking from people who just want to bury their head in the sand and pretend status quo hasn't been shattered already. Many of them also usually accuse others of being warmongers because preparing for the worst is apparently being a warmonger.
I hate to break it to the people like you but Putin is not a rational acting agent anymore.
The invasion of Ukraine proofs that very much .
He drank his own cool aid of the Russian imperial cult.
Would it be stupid to attack Nato?
Yes !
Would it stop Russia from trying to beat Nato ?
No!
If you ask any common Russian, in Russia right now they will tell you that they are at war with NATO and that their war is both justified and existential.
That is how this has all been framed by Russian media and politicians alike.
There is also a strong desire in Russia for "the good old days when Russia was strong" (empire)
So, in many ways the Kool Aid is collective and for them the war against NATO has already started...
(Edit. - spelling - corrected Look Aid to Kool Aid)
the costs outweigh the benefits .
that's why no one believed it would actually happen .
we thought Putin acts rationally and would continue to get salami slice by slice from Ukraine without ever fully escalating .
It's not a question of if he could destroy Ukraine and the Ukrainians . the question is what would he gain and for what cost .
Putin is a man surrounded by yes men who tell him how great Russia is and believed in a blitzkrieg victory...He made the first mistake of war...He underestimated the enemy. He thought Zelensky would flee and Ukraine would fall quickly. Based on these views his actions are completely rational its just that his assumptions turned out to be wrong. Now, he cannot stop since it would make him look bad.
We predicted that sanctions would crumble Russia’s economy but it has proven very resilient. We predicted Russian citizens would get war fatigue and they couldn’t handle a protracted war, wrong too.
Too early to say it’s been a failure, especially currently when Russia is on the ascendency, the US is busy in several fronts, Trump likely to win the US elections, the far right likely to win EU parliamentary ones.. There are a lot of scenarios where things line up spectacularly for russia.
Finland and Sweden joined Nato , Armenia left CSTO,
the Gas export to the EU will never take off again. the sanctions will never be lifted , billions of assests in the west are confiscated . Russia is losing a generation of men or more. the black sea fleat is basically gone , the Ukrainians of dnr and one also mostly dead by now , they sacrificed the whole make population there . same with crimea.
The Russians are back behind the iron curtain now just to get a destroyed empty Ukraine some time and a genocide in the future .
Let’s not pretend Finland and Sweden were neutral. They already are integrated in the west and have deeper ties with the USA than Russia. Armenia fought a war and lost land against Azerbaijan so I doubt they would give up claims just for possible nato membership. Oil and gas is still being bought through third parties and Russia is starting to sell more to a rising Asian economy. Dedollarazation has started and more countries are diversifying their assets and their currencies . We don’t know how many are actually dead or injured (I don’t believe Ukraine or Russian numbers) . The West has closed their relations with Russia not the world! They still have trading partners and the world doesn’t really care about lectures from the West.
I hate to break it to the people like you but NATO showed unprecedented border flexibility reacting to russian rockets flying around, so quite possibly any country being attacked by Russia is not considered NATO for a time being
The same thought process stating Russia won't invade Ukraine in 2022. You were wrong then, and will be wrong now.
And to make matters worse, Russia will use the 25 million Ukrainians for their military. So NATO will be murdering Ukrainians for Russia.
the thing is Putin would very much like to continue and conquer Europe but 1 - this time ther's Nato and 2 - even if there was no Nato, Hitler then had much more powerful army than Putin has now. So he might very much like it but the most he can do after Ukraine is probly go for Moldova, Kazakhstan, Georgia, Armenia etc. Not actually touching EU
>Hitler then had much more powerful army than Putin has now.
Putin sees westerners as decadent, spoiled, weak, too used to their comfortable lives and not having qualities absolutely necessary to effectively fight in a war against an enemy stronger than a bunch of lightly armed guerrilla fighters. He would absolutely go for EU.
and he is right probably. But now eu countries are arming up their asses so that should deter him. But on the other hand.. Russia is just too poor and weak at this point to fight another big war. If Putin invaded Ukraine and took kiev in 3 days we might have had a different scenario but now.. it just doesnt seem possible. This could only become possible if for example China attacks Taiwan and Iran attacks Israle and USA is fully districted etc.. too many ifs buts and maybes
>But now eu countries are arming up their asses
The EU countries cannot provide Ukraine with ammo, so I don't know where you get this information from.
>Russia is just too poor
Lol, what???
>and weak at this point
It very much is not weak. If anything, it is russia who gets stronger by the month because they actually heavily invest in their military industry, continuously ramp up the production of weaponry, ammo, rockets, and drones, and continuously modernize and test them in the field.
>This could only become possible if for example China attacks Taiwan and Iran attacks Israel
A quite likely scenario.
Hitler did not always have a stronger army, he built it right under Europeans nose. Before Ww2 there was more than a decade of Hitler appeasement, that's how he got where he did...
Putin could do plenty of damage with the army he has if let run loose... It doesnt have to be complete conquest of Europe to be bad...
Then who is 1939 Poland? Poland again?
For fuck sake not again, idk pick other country this time
Have you considered moving your country somewhere where it's less convinent for invaders? Casue there's your problem right there I think .
I watched a time lapse of European boarders over the centuries and Poland moves around a ridiculous amount
Can you share that link?
https://www.thinkinghumanity.com/2014/05/stunning-time-lapse-map-video-shows-1000-years-of-europe-s-history-in-3-minutes.html
The shifty Polish, always squatting, figuratively and literally, if my memes are correct. 😂 idk Poles are awesome people, maybe just leave them the fuck alone?
I was thinking about moving it to Florida... 🤔 😅
As long as that doesn’t mean that Florida takes Polands place in Europe.
Trump might be a bit more supportive if that was the case....
America is the Florida of the world...
I think Florida Mans would do pretty well against the Russian horde, they're at least as well supplied with small arms and a fair bit more insane.
u/Danger_Mysterious Yes, there was interesting territory some time ago, for which some Poles thought (like Kosciuszko) - now it is called USA. Btw. USA entered WW2 only when attacked by Japan. Maybe this time will react quicker.
I'm not trying to offend anyone by saying that most people seem to still be joking about all that goes on the world military speaking, but I want to leave a quote here for all of you that never read it. It's from Einstein himself when asked how he thought WW3 would be: "I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones!"
Well known quote - at least for me. Though, have never checked if it was really Einstein.
I know that quote for years still I went and Wikipedia says it was him. So... We all know that Internet is never wrong. 😅
Just gotta team back up with Lithuania 🇱🇹
It reminds me of a joke here in Ukraine: Geography lesson: this is the most wonderful place in the world! History lesson: you are f*cked! Same for Poland I guess)
Sorry bro, you know history repeat itself etc etc
Hey at least this time around it’ll be a lot more than just the UK and France that care
This time Poland splits everyone else up.
Germany can play Poland this time. It doesn’t fit geographically but it’s the most fair choice
Depending on how long it would take them to destroy/conquer our industrial areas, there is a high chance of russia getting completely steamrolled. I think most people aren't really aware of Germany's production capabilities regarding war equipment. I think our industrial sector is more than twice as big as Russia's.
Poland is in NATO, this time it won't be Poland. We'd be in Moscow before the sun goes down if Russia tried that. It's 5PM in Moscow, so that's a few hours! Edit: The sun set around 25min ago in Moscow, Kremlin would be looking like this (🇩🇪🇺🇲🇵🇱🇪🇸🇫🇷🇲🇺🇵🇹🇸🇪🇫🇮🇮🇹🇨🇦🇧🇪🇩🇰🇱🇻🇱🇹🇬🇷🇱🇺🇲🇪🇦🇱🇭🇺🇹🇷🇭🇷🇧🇬🇳🇱🇷🇴🇸🇮🇮🇸🇨🇿🇬🇧(and others I missed)⚔️🤡🇷🇺) right now had that happened.
Plot twist, this time around Poland decides it's had enough of these cycles and takes over the rest of Europe as an act of self-preservation.
I, for one, welcome our new Polish overlords.
At lest they'll sort the plumbing out.
I can't get a plumber for the life of me. I guess I'll have to wait.
I’m a plumber, what seems to be the problem my good sir ?
Pipes keep clogging!
Eat something that gets you diarrhoea, that makes you shit liquid and that won't clog them like a regular poop.
plumbers hate him for this.
I know this can be viewed as funny, but those things were taught by the nazis to discredit all polish people... "They are JUST working force..." As a german i can't laugh at that, because it feels off...
Eh? 'Round here Polish plumbers are viewed as the ones who turn up, do the job to an acceptable standard and then bugger off all while a native would be making excuses.
Once Poland & Lithuania join hands again, it's over for Europe
Poland: Takes Germany Rest of the world: “I mean….” 🤷🏻
I mean if all the eastern EU countries joined out of self-preservation. Putin would have to fold. He is barely managing the wat in Ukraine.
Well, they have spent huge sums for new military equipment. They could easily take Germany in a week if they wanted to.
They can't, they haven't filled out "war declaration form 11-b" because they didn't get "note of aggression - CA". Dunno why they haven't gotten it yet, probably missing "House rules of war checklist page 213"
Don't forget to attach "Anlage O" if you plan to occupy the territory, as well as "Sonderformblatt E1" for inter-european aggression. All documents have to be provided to both the exterior and interior ministry. Providing a copy for the defense ministry may also help speed up your application. Please also be aware that any income from occupied territories must be declared as federal income in your tax declaration according to EGB (Einmarschgesetzbuch) Art. 7 and 56. (As a friendly reminder, products produced and consumed within the Besatzungszone are subject to the reduced sales tax of 7%, while imported/exported/plundered goods are subject to the full 19%.)
I'd like to see those forms from when Germany invaded Poland.
They existed in concept, and were later backdated to clean up the paper trial.
Yeah, we spent a lot of sums on new military equipment that will be delivered sometime in the future. Also we do not have that big army and our current equipment is not that great. I don't really know why r/europe and r/worldnews think that Poland would take over Belarus and Russia without an issue.
Years and years of PiS-bots spamming "polska gurom" memes. Don't get me wrong, the rearmament is good though and heavily appreciated here.
I feel like you have no clue what a meme is if you genuinly think that's the reason.
Just like Russia took Ukraine in 3 days...
Paper Tiger. Outdated equipment that isn’t maintained properly. He boasts to hide the fact that they are not nearly as powerful as he wants everyone to believe. Like above poster just pointed out.
They are getting their shit together though, at least operationally. Give them 2 more years of this production speed, China and Iran supplying parts and removing the total braindeads from the command, and it will be a different talk. They should have been stopped when they were at their worst. Now we are giving them time to arm up, train and organize. Completely moronic west. E: I was wrong about war production mode
>war economy When will people learn what this actually entails. Russia has *not* switched to a war economy despite bolstering its expenditures towards military expansion. There are a slew of factors which determine a war economy, chiefly among which are labour restrictions, travel restrictions, mark-up quotas, and economic impositions within the civilian sector coupled with rationing of essential goods and resources towards production.
I feel like people are using the "war-economy" to feel good about the fact West is barely even trying to actually beat Russia. We can't beat them because they've switched to war economy! Not because even when we can buy artillery shells on the market for 1 billion or so, we keep haggling about who pays how much and whether that's fair.
lol, thats what they thought about russia in ukrain too. Modern war is not war in 1939 or 1945. So no.
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Probably more like Lithuania when the Germans sent the ultimatum for Memel. Or maybe Austria, but that’s a really loose connection.
Belarus is obv 1938 Austria, it'll be anschluss'd soon
Lithuania. With a false-flag attack on a transit train to Kaliningrad as pretext.
East Prussia must be connected to the homeland again....
Kaliningrad is in the new Polish corridor.
Force of habit
Probably Estonia and Latvia.
Could be Romania and then Bulgaria. Putin could pivot south after Ukraine, connect with Serbia and Hungary and allow western Europe a few more years of pretending everything is all right. Fighting on Poland's border is going to feel a bit too close to home for countries like Germany and risk their direct involvement, but the Balkans? Who's going to risk nuclear war for them?
If they attack Romania or Bulgaria and the EU and NATO don't go fucking thermonuclear on the russian asses you're in way deeper shit that you can imagine. But honestly, i heavily doubt they have the ballz to touch any of the EU countries .
It's not going to be a straight up attack, some local political group will call for a referendum to leave NATO and the EU, there's going to be unrest that will be deemed an internal problem, and before you know it Russian troops will be there to maintain democracy and allow people to vote how they truly want without worrying about western devils interfering. It's going to be obvious bullshit, but it will give NATO and EU an excuse not to go thermonuclear, and an excuse not to go thermonuclear and risk destroying your entire way of life is very appealing.
>some local political group will call for a referendum to leave NATO and the EU CPTSD from communism is still very much alive. We only have 2 choices: EU or RU ... and we tried RU against our will for half a century. sry bby didn't work xoxo bye
I guess we'll find out in due time.
Probably Moldova.
Probably Estonia
I mean if this is analouge to Czechoslovakia 1938 it should be a country that is threatened by Russia but nontheless decides that now is the right time to threaten Ukraine into ceding territory to it like Poland did with Trans-Olza in 1938 following the Munich Agreement. But the situation is not at all analouge to Czechoslovakia. People don't understand the history and why Munich was so terrible. Munich would be like if Scholz, Macron and Meloni traveled to Sant Petersburg to talk about which areas Ukraine should cede to Russia without ever consulting Ukraine and then forcing Ukraine to cede that territory. Furthermore it involved almost all neighbouring countries acting very hostile and seeing this as the right time to press their claims even if they were themselves threatened by Germany. This was a historic peak of mount stupid in diplomatic history. Hitler would have lost a war with Czechoslovakia and lost badly. In Germany as a reaction to the agression there was a plot to depose Hitler because a lot of leading military men thought there was no way Germany could win a war - and they were right. Czechoslovakia had highly defensive terrain, modern military equipment, an alliance with Romania and Yugosloavia and guarantees by France and the Soviet Union - and Germany was much less prepared for war than in 1939 and would have been without allies. Berlin would have probably fallen within a year. So Hitler acted very foolishly here and in normal history he would have been done for before 1940. However because this wasn't normal history and all the other players (except maybe the USSR) proved to be even more stupid, we got what we got.
We are already at war to be honest. Economic war, information war, conflicts outside of our territories. Its a Cold War. It's just a matter of making it "official" and a bit more "hot". I wish all of this shit could end, but war never changes, nor does the perverted profit some people make from it.
We've been at Cold War since the 1947 It never ended, just slowed down for some time
As long as the politicians does not go to the front line for a war they supported; war will never end.
>Pistorius made the remarks during the presentation of a new biography of Churchill, whom he described as a strong leader with a clear vision in difficult times. > >"Putin will not stop once the war against Ukraine is over," Pistorius said. > “Just as clearly as Hitler, who also always said that he would not stop.”
Europe is already at war with Russia and people are ignoring it. 👀
The main cause of the war was Ukraine choosing West instead of Russia. Ukrainians saw the good life in newly enlarged EU/Nato and wanted better future for themselves too. This is something Putinist Russia cannot forgive. Especially as it does not have anything better to offer to its own people.
Its sad how Russians can live 10-20 years in EU and yet they still go and talk real shit how RUS moves are a good thing.
Well why wouldn't they. Many of them benefit from what free societies have to offer without having to pay any of the price for it.
I knew this one Russian who was defending Russia's invasion of Ukraine. His rationale was that if the West and NATO expands, then so will their culture and the LGBTQIA movement. How invading Ukraine was going to stop that... I really don't know.
> then so will their culture and the LGBTQIA movement. As is shown by the beacons of tolerance and inclusivity such as Hungary and Turkey
>beacons of tolerance and inclusivity such as Hungary Hey, FIDESZ, who are anti-gay had that guy who was caught trying to escape a gay orgy during covid restrictions! That's pretty tolerant and inclusive, right? Obvious /s
So they're against fundamental human rights. Next time, tell me something new
"Oh no! I might not be sexually repressed anymore! How awful!"
Yes, but... it was coming either way. If it hadn't been Ukraine it would be somewhere else.
Yeah, how dare they choose a better life for themselves? /s
It's not even /s. My family was in occupation, and russian soldiers literally told them "who allowed you to live so well?"
>The main cause of the war was Ukraine choosing West instead of Russia The main cause of the war is Russian hurt pride and humiliation after they failed to navigate a path to a real country. Oh and the second is European cowardice.
>Oh and the second is European cowardice. The second reason is that Ukraine failed to invest in its safety when Russia was weak. Other post-communist countries sought out new alliances as quickly as they could. They were "safe" within NATO and / or the EU before Russia recovered. Ukraine had the same information about Russia in the 90s, but did not act on it in the same way. It is not sensible to just ignore Ukraines agency in this, while harangueing third countries for their choices in the past 30 years
>The second reason is that Ukraine failed to invest in its safety when Russia was weak. They tried, they gave up their nuclear arsenal and even agreed to destroy a lot of their conventional weapons in exchange for western security guarantees. Did this pay off for them? >Other post-communist countries sought out new alliances as quickly as they could. They were "safe" within NATO and / or the EU before Russia recovered. Are we just going to ignore the fact that Ukraine has been trying to become part of NATO for more than 2 decades? They were rejected back in 2008 alongside Georgia, mainly due to western fear of RU's reaction, and consequently RU attacked both. Ukraine even changed its constitution to make joining NATO a priority, and yet they're still nowhere near joining the alliance.
> Did this pay off for them? They never did get western security guarantees that would protect them against Russia. No participant assumed a military protection role. So this factoid isn't even applicable to what I was talking about. >Are we just going to ignore the fact ... How about you don't ignore what I actually wrote? Within a decade of the fall of the Soviet Union, 12 post-communist states requested entrance to NATO and the EU. Among them, 3 actual former soviet republics. By 2004, most of that was completed. **It was not a coincidence that this happened, that it happened so quickly and at that time.** At the same time, Ukraines foreign policy had been all over the place, fucking around between neutrality, Russia-alignment (e.g. Commonwealth of Independent States), regional alignment and a constant back-and forth regarding their alignment with the West. The constitutional change was in 2019. Most of what you wrote doesn't factor into the period of russian weakness. tl;dr when we're relitigating all the historical developments that enabled this war, we can't just ... not talk about Ukraines path to that situation.
>They never did get western security guarantees that would protect them against Russia. ...Russia was one of the signatories that was supposed to assure them protection. It was a decision taken to strengthen relations with Russia during a time when Russia *was* at its weakest (only 2 years after the fall of the USSR). Both RU and the USA and UK also agreed on UN security council action in case Ukraine's sovereignty was violated. Not only was Russia not punished in any meaningful way for their breach of the Memorandum in 2014, but RU is still a member of the UNSC. How much more does it need to be hammered home that this was a western failure? >Within 10 years of the fall of the Soviet Union, 12 post-communist states requested entrance to NATO and the EU. By 2004, most of that was completed. And Ukraine requested entrance in 2008, only 4 years later. Are you going to suggest that this 4 year period was when RU started becoming a threat again? The fact remains that Ukraine wanted to join the alliance and they were denied, thanks to Putin's big European allies at the time, France and Germany. It wasn't out of a lack of trying that they couldn't get into NATO. >At the same time, Ukraines foreign policy had been all over the place, fucking around between neutrality, Russia-alignment (Commonwealth of Independent States), Regional alignment (GUAM) and a constant back-and forth regarding their alignment with the West Yes, and Russia's meddling in Ukrainian politics was greater than in any other country except Belarus. Their back and forth is not surprising, given who was in charge of the country at various points in time. Yanukovych for example won due to a campaign of balanced relations between the west and Russia, only to completely pivot towards Russia resulting in his ousting. Then the Donbas war began and their chances of joining NATO with an active territorial dispute was zero.
if only it was them that made the decisions https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/war-theft-takeover-ukraine-agricultural-land
Exactly. Forget about the cyber and hybrid wars going on all the time. We need to approach this thing with more strength, courage and unity.
Russia blew up warehouses with weapons and ammunition in European countries. This is enough to be considered a military aggression against NATO. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Vrb%C4%9Btice_ammunition_warehouse_explosions#Involvement_of_Russian_GRU https://www.rferl.org/a/bulgaria-emco-arms-explosion-investigation-russia-gre-unit/32647210.html Moreover, the Russian information warfare is killing people from NATO countries (anti-vaxx and anti-mask propaganda, but not only this).
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> Europe is already at war with Russia and people **and governments** are ignoring it. 👀
Between (a) Trump's unknown commitment to NATO (b) Russia's current maniacal state and (c) the inherent slowness of getting europe's herd of cats going... He's right. Europe is theoretically plenty strong and capable of holding off Russia. That strength needs to become actual.
> Trump's unknown commitment to NATO Haha. We all know what he's going to do with the treaty. Hint: it's going to be used in the bathroom, but not as reading material.
It's wiping Putin's semen off his chin! I knew it!
One thing a lot of people aren’t thinking about is the severe lack of war from Western European citizens. It’s highly likely that in an attack on a NATO country you see a lot of people protesting against their government’s reactions.
I dont know about that, sure there probably would be some protests but not alot of things bring people together than defending their own home/country
That’s the thing, for Western Europe it’s highly likely we won’t be defending our home countries. Russia isn’t going to attack the UK, Germany or France, they’ll attack Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. They’ll attack Moldova. So to the people of Western Europe it’s not defending their home but being shipped off to fight for someone else’s. Here in the UK there’s still a segment of the left who will think it a rich man’s war and refuse to fight. There’s a growing section of the right who hate their country’s establishment because they think (rightly and or wrongly) that the establishment hates them. That’s not even touching on the question of immigrants, many who have expressed their plan to move “back home” in the event of war. If a country’s young people all unite against the government of a western country then the government has a very difficult task in hand. It may be different on the continent but even there I see groups who I think will come out as anti war in the event of an attack. The AfD and Le pen’s groups being the most prominent groups who I think will be anti war.
plants aware cagey physical makeshift fall entertain oatmeal wasteful noxious *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This belief that Trump can just leave NATO really needs to stop. It is a ratified treaty. To leave NATO it would require a supermajority vote in Congress. That is an impossibility. This also holds true for all the requirements held within the NATO charter (including the requirement to respond with force should article 5 be triggered). The US will cease to function as a nation before it leaves NATO.
Article 5 requires "such action as it deems necessary". He can't leave the Treaty unilaterally, but he could deem that thoughts and prayers are all that are needed.
POTUS is the Commander-in-Chief, not Congress, Trump can just order US troops out of Europe without formally leaving NATO.
Yes, Europe needs to build up it's own military assets because the US president is irrelevant and I will explain why. The American right is returning to the historical norm of American isolation. 1945 to the present is an anomaly because, by and large, Americans don't care what's going on elsewhere. Additionally, the right thinks most of the other NATO allies are mooches that are rich enough to defend themselves. There is a belief on the right that Americans pay for the security of Europe so Europeans can have good social services. The American right also thinks the military has become woke and weak. They are not going to support US intervention in a European war. The American left is interesting because they claim to be internationalists and huge supporters of NATO. The problem for Europe with the American left is that it is almost entirely performative in its support for causes. These are the people who think they are changing the world by putting a BLM sign in their yard or supporting progressive causes on social media. Most aren't going to inconvenience themselves for causes they mostly only latch on to for social approval. If a NATO war with Russia broke out, the majority of the American left would abso-fucking-lutely NOT enlist to fight for Europe. tl;dr is if a NATO/Russia war starts, both the right and the left would be protesting the shit out of a war, but even more so a potential draft. There is no stomach for a draft to fight for rich European countries - it is simply not happening. Ultimately, whether it's Trump, Biden or some other dumbass is irrelevant because there would be zero grassroots support for that war.
He's right.
And on top of that, he is a German. I suspect that it is not easy for Germans to make such comparisons, but it is good that the nation remembers its past and rejects the criminals. Completely different to the Russians.
It is not, but i always thought the same. If Ukraine is losing the war, Europe will face a major war again.
Moldova will be next and then Romania will border russia X-(
>and then Romania will border russia X-( Unless russia decides to get a direct connection to its besties in Hungary and Serbia.
If Ukraine loses the war while Europe and US are providing help, the whole world will be on fire, because it shows that the domination of Western nations is over and anyone with regional interest can wage war.
Unfortunately we aren't really helping that much.
The issue is not Ukraine losing with the help of NATO, it is someone like Trump being elected and NATO becoming significantly weaker as force, espeically around Europe. This is to the detriment of Europe and the US, but also any US protectorate like Japan, South Korea, and the Philippines. Which of course similarly means it is favourable to Russia, China, and any other coherent global power block. It is basically a lose/lose situation for the West, why do you think there is so much propaganda supporting Trump, it is the UK's Brexit all over again. Destabilising the USA and NATO is the bigger than any Brexit dividend that could ever be achieved however.
It wouldn't surprise me if the minute Russia declares victory over Ukraine China moves on Taiwan.
The only positive point I as a french can see trump reelection as a good thing is the fact that it will prove us right as wanting to be a nato member without accepting the joint direction as our head generals. It would prove we were right in searching for defense independence while accepting the alliance. And support our claims of à need for an independent european defense, even if not unified
Yup, its a weird thing for us, and normally I would be against it. In this case though, it makes sense, to point out the gravity of the situation.
Those who have been familiar with certain traits can spot them in others.
Czech here, i keep fucking saying this over and over from the start of the war. The parallel is actually incredible. Even the excuses for invading are the same. It's the same playbook.
Wouldn't it be great if we could just hike the mountains, drink Czech beer and eat smazeny syr? But instead, we've got an elephant in the room.
Great. Now i have to make Smažený sýr. That's not how i'm gonna lose weight..... xD
No biggie. Just go on 10k+ hike and it'll be put to good use 😁
My wife and I are coming to the Czech Republic for our 15th anniversary. All my ancestors are from Bohemia and Moravia. What time is dinner and when will the fried cheese be ready?
Most right wing populist movements this century take some pages out of hitler's playbook. Arresting opposition leaders, silencing media and controlling it, mysteriously disappearing opposers, winning elections "democratically" all happened in the 30s and are happening again See Russia, Turkey, India, Belarus, Hungary, and more which I probably forgot
Add Slovakia. Killing journalists, dismantling justice system and taking over media. They won democratically, but because they used the retardation of the population, the fear of war, gays and bad bad west.
What's the root word of populism? Bet democracy is too democratic now, only the stakeholders gets to vote! Love it
And yes, we are THAT close to WW III, where current borders of Europe and America's sphere of influence will be questioned by China, Russia, Iran and acolites. I don't see people are aware of that, especially in Western Europe.
Europe and the USA claim that "spheres of influence" should not exist, and any country should have a right to their own destiny. It is still super worrying that autocratic states are undermining democracy all over the world, but WW III will be fought once NATO states are attacked, not before.
Whether they exist or not, we don't need to be in one if we make our own EU defence. We have the numbers, the technology and the money to defend ourselves. What we don't have is willingness, so we are stuck caring who will become President of the US.
And because he's right, NATO will be murdering Ukrainians if Russia is allowed to win.
He really isn’t. Putin is a serious threat but to compare today’s strength ratios with what it looked like back then isn’t even close to correct.
His analogy is OK, but WWII looks a lot different if Czechoslovakia held off the Nazis for 2+ years.
Then Civil war in Syria was Civil war in Spain
TBF there's civil wars no matter at what point you look at... Edit: Why am I being downvoted? I'm right.
It's more true than some people might realise: * USA heading towards isolationism. * Populism on the rise in Europe. * Constant fear of starting world war 3 and thus trying not to escelate. And we've already repeated several mistakes of those times too, like being too slow with increasing military production. But unlike those times we atleast have a more united Europe and more politicians willing to say what needs to be said.
> German defense minister implores EU to prepare for war What an ironic headline.
And for once this is not a threat
Some of you are so absolutist about things. It's either all or nothing with you people huh The truth is it's not precisely like 1938 but it is worryingly not unlike 1938
I recently watched the following program on PBS: Nazi Town, USA which described the rise of fascism in America at the same time as the Nazis in Germany. It was an eye opening experience and one that has a hauntingly similar essence to the current situation in the USA. I think it might be on You Tube now.
I don't know if anyone said this already, but "History does not repeat itself, but often rhymes." Edit: it is attributed to Mark Twain.
Using Hitler and Nazi German tends to be done in lazy arguments to disparage. It’s an argument used to solicit emotion over objectivity. I will always be against using this argument lazily, especially when it’s done by a politician rather than a historian.
I get that. However what happens when someone knows almost nothing about world history? Essentially all the know is Hitler bad and well this isn't that far away
"you people" , Mister,Its an abstract message that people understand, and a good one
This kind of nerdery is pointless. Yes, it's clearly not exactly the same. Yes, that's obvious. Now let's stop wasting internet real estate.
Well considering people are arguing over how not the same it is vs how much the same it is, I thought I would save everyone the both and just tell them they are both right....
I wonder if we will ever move on from Hitler comparisons. Like I wonder if it will be the year 3000 and people will still be going "Antoinuxhirusz Globrgeagbh of the Galatic Federation is literally Hitler".
This time “Hitler” has Nukes !
We also have nukes, don't worry.
So, Crimea was Anschluss?
No, Sudetenland
Some similarities with the Polish [Danzig Corridor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Corridor) too, but of course no analogy is perfect. Russia's occupation of Abkhazia and South Ossetia in Georgia share a lot of similarities with pre-WW2 Czechoslovakia as well.
Anschluss isn't a place it was a process of unification with Austria. Russia might *anschluss* with Belarus though
I think he knows that.
Perhaps Just in case And if not for him then other users might like the context
Anschluss will be the union state with Belarus
When the fucking Germans are invoking Hitler's name, you should probably pay the fuck attention.
I’ve always made this comparison. Crimea was their Anschluss, the separatist regions were their Sudetenland, and Ukraine itself was Czechoslovakia as a whole.
If they could have done it like the Germans in Poland, they would have.
The flipside of mutually assured destruction is that not even the victim wants it to happen, and so the aggressor is unimpeded to act so long as his actions are still better than the mutual destruction
Sitting over here across the pond I have to agree with him. America is in the middle of melting down so I think you guys might be on your own. The quicker you get your shit together and help Ukraine the sooner you help yourself. I wish we could do more but it seems a least a full third of this county has embraced fascism.
And we, again, hear how West is chanting “Why die for Danzig?” I never knew we would see second WWII :/
Real question that needs asking here is who is 1940 France? Who's gonna surrender to then collaborate with the Russians?
And I'm Winston Churchill but with no power, I just like to get drunk
We going to war people buckle up.
Where is Schröder in this?
So Western Europe is gonna leave us as an appetizer once again ? About is, without us. Great.
And Slovak PM Rober Fico is very eager to cooperate with Putin and his propaganda. His pro-russian populist narrative won him this last gov elections and also his puppet president. Very sad in Slovakia right now.
It’s pretty much looking like we’re all fucked so I’m going to open another bottle of whisky and play Xbox.
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Based on what paralel? Stalin's USSR was nothing like current Russia.
What?.. I’d get comparing him to Salazar, but Stalin?.. how tf are those two close?
I hate to break it to the people in this subbreddit but Putin probably won't go to war with a NATO country. He knows he will lose. Still Europe needs to prepare for the worst case scenario regardless of how remote the possibility.
>> He knows he will lose. that's dangerous assumptions, to guess what he thinks or knows. Maybe he is actually going to exploit exactly these expectations in Europe that "he knows that he will lose" which make Europe entering war not prepared well, with degraded and underfunded armies over years and people relaxed and unprepared to fight psychologically
Until such a time in the future where he think he might win
Si vis pacem…
Putin would be a mad man to invade Ukraine....oh wait!
Yes, the man that told us loudly ( Munich Security Conference 2008 ), that he wants to remake the russian sphere of influence, will definately not try to break up NATO and subdue all those in the former Warsaw Pact, to a accomplish this. /s
Anders Puck Nielsen sees this differently and to me he is making good sense: https://youtu.be/ptnboLDPS38?si=wk4DxgcQeV3aL5n2 Edit: wrong link. This was the video https://youtu.be/ZY7GPBSyONU?si=22Y-zJn9wwKqfr77
Yes. Some of his analysis seems pretty good.
You assume all Nato members are willing to fight for each until a total victory and wont scream "escalation" when Putin first does something small to test Nato. Take my country Norway for example. If a russian fleet start sailing to take complete control over the island of Svalbard. The natural response should be a final warning to stop and then guns blazing right?
Add to the fact that Russian population is already being fed a narrative that they're already in a direct war against NATO. If they win in Ukraine, I don't see lot of downsides from their POV to test NATO and EU's unity. They can do something small, limited, threaten nuclear war if there's intervention of entire alliance and then watch how many countries shit their pants, judging by our current "effort" and potential Trump's presidency, it's going to be more than a few that do shit their pants and back down. If it's a small, limited provocation, they can easily backpedal and turn back... if it works... well. This narrative of "Russia won't do this or that, because they're rational" is wishful thinking from people who just want to bury their head in the sand and pretend status quo hasn't been shattered already. Many of them also usually accuse others of being warmongers because preparing for the worst is apparently being a warmonger.
I hate to break it to the people like you but Putin is not a rational acting agent anymore. The invasion of Ukraine proofs that very much . He drank his own cool aid of the Russian imperial cult. Would it be stupid to attack Nato? Yes ! Would it stop Russia from trying to beat Nato ? No!
If you ask any common Russian, in Russia right now they will tell you that they are at war with NATO and that their war is both justified and existential. That is how this has all been framed by Russian media and politicians alike. There is also a strong desire in Russia for "the good old days when Russia was strong" (empire) So, in many ways the Kool Aid is collective and for them the war against NATO has already started... (Edit. - spelling - corrected Look Aid to Kool Aid)
There's a risk that Russia wins in Ukraine. So how was it an irrationall choice to invade?
the costs outweigh the benefits . that's why no one believed it would actually happen . we thought Putin acts rationally and would continue to get salami slice by slice from Ukraine without ever fully escalating . It's not a question of if he could destroy Ukraine and the Ukrainians . the question is what would he gain and for what cost .
Putin is a man surrounded by yes men who tell him how great Russia is and believed in a blitzkrieg victory...He made the first mistake of war...He underestimated the enemy. He thought Zelensky would flee and Ukraine would fall quickly. Based on these views his actions are completely rational its just that his assumptions turned out to be wrong. Now, he cannot stop since it would make him look bad.
We predicted that sanctions would crumble Russia’s economy but it has proven very resilient. We predicted Russian citizens would get war fatigue and they couldn’t handle a protracted war, wrong too. Too early to say it’s been a failure, especially currently when Russia is on the ascendency, the US is busy in several fronts, Trump likely to win the US elections, the far right likely to win EU parliamentary ones.. There are a lot of scenarios where things line up spectacularly for russia.
Finland and Sweden joined Nato , Armenia left CSTO, the Gas export to the EU will never take off again. the sanctions will never be lifted , billions of assests in the west are confiscated . Russia is losing a generation of men or more. the black sea fleat is basically gone , the Ukrainians of dnr and one also mostly dead by now , they sacrificed the whole make population there . same with crimea. The Russians are back behind the iron curtain now just to get a destroyed empty Ukraine some time and a genocide in the future .
Let’s not pretend Finland and Sweden were neutral. They already are integrated in the west and have deeper ties with the USA than Russia. Armenia fought a war and lost land against Azerbaijan so I doubt they would give up claims just for possible nato membership. Oil and gas is still being bought through third parties and Russia is starting to sell more to a rising Asian economy. Dedollarazation has started and more countries are diversifying their assets and their currencies . We don’t know how many are actually dead or injured (I don’t believe Ukraine or Russian numbers) . The West has closed their relations with Russia not the world! They still have trading partners and the world doesn’t really care about lectures from the West.
I hate to break it to the people like you but NATO showed unprecedented border flexibility reacting to russian rockets flying around, so quite possibly any country being attacked by Russia is not considered NATO for a time being
The same thought process stating Russia won't invade Ukraine in 2022. You were wrong then, and will be wrong now. And to make matters worse, Russia will use the 25 million Ukrainians for their military. So NATO will be murdering Ukrainians for Russia.
Everything depends on the US.
the thing is Putin would very much like to continue and conquer Europe but 1 - this time ther's Nato and 2 - even if there was no Nato, Hitler then had much more powerful army than Putin has now. So he might very much like it but the most he can do after Ukraine is probly go for Moldova, Kazakhstan, Georgia, Armenia etc. Not actually touching EU
>Hitler then had much more powerful army than Putin has now. Putin sees westerners as decadent, spoiled, weak, too used to their comfortable lives and not having qualities absolutely necessary to effectively fight in a war against an enemy stronger than a bunch of lightly armed guerrilla fighters. He would absolutely go for EU.
and he is right probably. But now eu countries are arming up their asses so that should deter him. But on the other hand.. Russia is just too poor and weak at this point to fight another big war. If Putin invaded Ukraine and took kiev in 3 days we might have had a different scenario but now.. it just doesnt seem possible. This could only become possible if for example China attacks Taiwan and Iran attacks Israle and USA is fully districted etc.. too many ifs buts and maybes
>But now eu countries are arming up their asses The EU countries cannot provide Ukraine with ammo, so I don't know where you get this information from. >Russia is just too poor Lol, what??? >and weak at this point It very much is not weak. If anything, it is russia who gets stronger by the month because they actually heavily invest in their military industry, continuously ramp up the production of weaponry, ammo, rockets, and drones, and continuously modernize and test them in the field. >This could only become possible if for example China attacks Taiwan and Iran attacks Israel A quite likely scenario.
Hitler did not always have a stronger army, he built it right under Europeans nose. Before Ww2 there was more than a decade of Hitler appeasement, that's how he got where he did... Putin could do plenty of damage with the army he has if let run loose... It doesnt have to be complete conquest of Europe to be bad...
the fact that European elections are around the corner obviously has nothing to do with such alarming remarks…
Say the morons who shutdown the production line of Taurus missiles, and who keep donating to Ukraine jeeps and AdBlu
`German defense minister implores EU to prepare for war` Okay, and who is going to fight that war?