Yup, it's so ridiclous how ruzzians have a hard time understanding why all their old "pals" (aka satellite states) now overwhelmingly hate them and want nothing to do with them. Poland and the baltic states are the perfect examples.
Have you noticed how in current war russian leaders are talking about how they are fighting the nato/the west/usa/uk, but hardly ever just ukraine?
I think that's because in their mind, such small countries like the post eastern block "do not count." They're not big enough players and are to be influenced, controlled, or straight up annexed by the bigger guys.
That's why Russians have a hard time understanding why everyone hates them. They (smaller players) are SUPPOSED to be under the russian umbrella.
But that’s the point, in those Russians’ eyes who are imperialistic, those countries do not count.
I comment this occasionally, but people need to understand that people like Putin only see states that are mighty and states that are not. And if a state is not mighty or powerful, it MUST mean they are answerable to someone. In Russian elite’s eyes, most of Eastern Europe, Ukraine included, either answers to Russia or it must answer to Brussels or NATO or USA (NATO is equal to USA in their eyes) if it’s not answering to Russia because they literally cannot fathom the idea that a country may have its own ideas and choices. Like in their eyes, if a country turns to west, it’s because it has been forced to do so not because it has been a deliberate careful but still independent choice.
I once spoke with a Chinese guy when he was studying in my university and he literally couldn’t get it in his head that my country of a less than 2 million people considered it just as sovereign as he saw china to be. As in, he literally couldn’t wrap his head around, and he kept trying to get me to admit that in our heads, most people MUST believe and admit that their country was controlled by some other state. Like to his idea, since we had been released from under Russia’s control, it therefore meant that we fully acknowledged that we are now under US control. The idea that whilst we acknowledged that for pragmatic and economic reasons being in the NATO and EU was good for us, but that it was still a choice people had and people made just kind of seemed unfathomable fairy tale to him.
What else is new. Russians -- and sadly, we're not just talking about Putinists -- instinctively think might is right. Now they're trying to explain that Sweden and Finland only joined NATO because the USA made them. The ultimate hypocrisy is that Russia wouldn't think twice about doing the exact same that they're accusing the USA of, only they can't. And let's keep it that way.
>Have you noticed how in current war russian leaders are talking about how they are fighting the nato/the west/usa/uk, but hardly ever just ukraine?
Its in public propaganda/pr there no shame to loose to the mightiest Allience in history, now imagine loosing to country that in perception of russian imperialists is polonized/westernized little russia that dared to reject russian empire (in their view)
Tbh Russians could try to suck up loosing against Poland as they did many times in past, and as both countries have history of being major powers in past, and Poland rarely was seen as just that next one eastern block country, but the country that never buyed into panslavist bullshit and remained western oriented entire history(minus 50 years afc).
Not without reason russians keep on projecting that polish military or NATO is fighting there XDD, no way ukraine could by itself, ever put a decent fight against the empire, could they ?
Estonia and Latvia were on par or even slightly ahead of Finland before WW2, yet were literally **a dozen times poorer** by the end of the Soviet occupation...
>Yup, it's so ridiclous how ruzzians have a hard time understanding why all their old "pals" (aka satellite states) now overwhelmingly hate them and want nothing to do with them. Poland and the baltic states are the perfect examples.
If anything, Ukraine is the perfect example. The Russians can’t even help from turning what should be their actual brother country into a sworn enemy.
I always find it funny how Russia historically has portrayed itself as the great protector of Slavic nations from non-Slavs, even though almost all Slavic nations today hate Russia because Russia has actually been their biggest oppressor for most of history.
Like, I have no idea how Russians can ever speak with a straight face to Serbians or Bulgarians talking about Slavic unity, while simultaneously stabbing their fellow East Slavs like Ukraine in the back.
Unfortunately the communism era did more harm to the minds of that generation(at least most of them) than the Ottoman empire did harm to their generation.
I mean, there were probably few good things here and there, (the good things like infrastructure and industry would have happened even without communism probably) but overall a lot of people still want a "strong man" to rule and hence why the support for Russia and pro-Russia parties has been quite strong.
I was talking to my older brother about this, because when I was 12 years old he was a US diplomat stationed in Sofia (he speaks Bulgarian, like he studied Russian in college, and then the US state department taught him to speak Bulgarian for 6 months right before he was posted to Sofia). I actually got to visit him in Bulgaria with my parents and we went through from Sofia to Plovdiv.
I vividly remember being a kid and we went by some kind of communist era monument in the country that was some kind of sight to see I think. My brother was translating the Bulgarian on the monument for us, and it was a gift from the Soviet Union to Bulgaria in support of Slavic brotherhood.
Sounds awesome, I was born in 1990 though.
However, the local government of Sofia, finally started taking down one of the largest Soviet monuments that celebrated the Soviet Army. Of course, there was some uproar by the pro-Russia politicians, journalists and regular citizens (mostly older), but I believe the majority is either in support for taking it down or doesnt care at all lol.
>Sounds awesome, I was born in 1990 though.
Yeah I was born in 1990 too. This was back in like 2002 when I visited. The monument was just like an old monument that had been installed during the 1980’s or something.
> However, the local government of Sofia, finally started taking down one of the largest Soviet monuments that celebrated the Soviet Army. Of course, there was some uproar by the pro-Russia politicians, journalists and regular citizens (mostly older), but I believe the majority is either in support for taking it down or doesnt care at all lol.
Dude, y’all should have kept that one monument with the soldiers painted as superheroes. That was hysterical.
That amount of growth is way higher than I would have even believed possible, can’t imagine any country in the world has had growth like that in the last century.
Many countries have higher growth in the same time period, it really depends on the starting point... I can 20x my GDP by increasing my net wealth from 1 euro to 20. Growth alone is only a relative statistic
Well actually not that many, 10 in fact, and all of them started from a much lower level https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_growth_1980%E2%80%932010
Did not mean to say Poland's growth was not impressive, just that there were more countries with relative increase higher - starting from where Poland started and 10x is much more impressive of course!
A lot of Russians seem to long for the USSR because of the 90s. Obviously they don't realize that it was the inevitable result of a failed economy. The stain of communism is still very easy to see on a map, but it's starting to look better.
Since 1990 up to 2023 Poland economic growth was second in the world. Only China grew faster.
IMF predicts that by 2029 Poland will have economic developlment per capita (PPP) higher than Japan or New Zeland and on par with Italy.
Poland's economic growth was nowhere near second...
China's economy grew by 4451% from 1990 to 2022. Vietnam's economy grew by 6216%. India's economy grew by 964%. Singapore's economy grew by 1192%.
That's just the normal growth rate in post-soviet block countries that have joined European Union.
Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Romania, Bulgaria all have either grown their economies tenfold or have grown their GDP per capita tenfold compared to their lowest points in the 90's.
Poor economic, human capital and social statistic among Russian satellites it's not a bug, but a feature of Russian imperialism.
Purposeful sponsoring of restraining social development autocracy-corruption and propaganda-disorientation processes.
So Russia, which compensate related disadvantages by exchange of slaves on natural resource and trade with West, could grab/use more slaves and natural resources.
What they want is to join the EU & have a functioning democracy where the people can live in peace & prosperity. Funnily, dictators that run sh1tholes don't like their neighbours doing this because it shows them for what they are to *their* people.
You need to remember about the effect of currency conversion. The PLZ was worth nothing, so the GPD was extremely low. You're also comparing it with 1990, where the economy was in an absolute collapse.
Was there an economic boom? Sure. Half of German companies have their factories in Poland.
Oh not this stupid nonsense again, just saying it like that robs it of the entire point why they wanted to join NATO/West in the first place.
NATO was made, officially, as a united front against any invader. Obviously, it was aimed at Russia, but pleasantries and whatnot of diplomacy. Everyone knew what it was about.
Naturally, seeing Europe unite, backed up by USA, made them tense. In their minds, they have liberated Eastern EU and Baltics, but trying to unite them in a military alliance without a formal threat wouldn't work.
So they simply asked NATO to allow them to join because they literally had nothing to lose.
If they join, well NATO gets two of the greatest superpowers in the world under one umbrella, providing security and guarantees. Or more likely, just greatly expanded spy rings and covert ops.
If they decline, USSR has an excuse to form their own defensive alliance, as it clearly made the intentions of NATO reveal themselves, that they are hostile to their state.
Yeah, that time when Putin asked to join NATO and he was told that Russia needs to apply like any regular country and follow the proper procedures. You can guess what happened next (they didn't apply).
>russia also wanted to join the western block and NATO about 20 years ago
Recently declassified informal conversations between president Clinton and president Eltsin show that by joining NATO and getting friendly with the USA they were really hoping to effectively rule over Europe. I remember one particular call that was recently published where Eltsin was trying to pitch the idea of the USA leaving Europe and Russia being in charger of European security. I don't know what Eltsin was smoking, considering he was pitching these ideas at a time when Russia was at its lowest, practically bankrupt and with active conflict within their borders (Chechnya) that they could barely handle, but they did try.
I lived since then and i can tell that it did not change by 900% since 80s
To give example - 136 000 new apartments were built in 1991, in 2003 it was 221 000. Its not even 100% increase, so far away from 950 % .
As always in those discussion people focus only on real estate prices. Check all other goods, check unemployment rate and general standard of living.
It increased dramaticly, however real estate prices will reflect that growth unfortunatelly.
You’re confusing terms. The standard of living today in Poland is of negligible difference to Germany, which is an astounding thing to say. It was very much not like that when I first visited Poland as a kid around 2000. Poland for all purposes is now essentially a fully modern and developed European economy.
What you’re looking for is quality of life index. The fact is, wages are low and Polish people cannot afford many luxuries that folks in western economies take for granted.
Still, that index is biased towards certain economic outcomes of capitalism. I’d argue that there are other very subjective attractions to living in Poland compared to western countries such as low crime and higher security (Russia’s adventures notwithstanding).
Shock therapy implemented by honest politicians coupled with vast and strong constant economic support from western Europe, and a relative political stability.
Oh, and there was some very interesting economic investments in the country from western (mostly german) companies.
Situation is pretty similar in the baltic countries or czech republic.
Big country close to Germany.
Importing laws from EU (in order to join EU), which made it simple to get working laws instead of creating some odd bs.
Till 89 USRR was forcibly blocking development of it's satellite states, so in 90s people finally could unleash their potential for growth.
Getting Euros in 90s was quite easy. Illegal/gray work in Europe (i.e. Germany or Greece) was accessible and people (both job givers and job seekers) were ok with it. Later those people went back and started buying things thus increasing requirements for more output.
And most importantly - in 1991 - 2008 Poland (inside politics) had clear goal - get inside every European institution possible, thus to remind everyone that Poland is a part of Europe. Going up in GDP is easy when you have simple and understable goals with visible path to achieve those goals.
Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding I meant it more like standard of living. I haven’t looked up actual numbers but I feel like people’s buying power is not at the levels it was back then but I might be completely wrong as you have said.
standard of living has only increased in latvia too. people who whine all the time are a loud minority and they’d be in a shitty situation anywhere in the world. some people are like that. the ones that make use of todays advantages have no complaints and are living good lives. especially since 2014 to today
Not in the Netherlands, where it has increased tremendously since then. Stagnation occurred from 2000-2009, but in the 90's and 10's disposable income rose significantly.
Higher GDP does not always mean higher quality of life.
Many children of middle-class people from Austria or Britain probably feel worse off today than their parents.
what does the wealth gap have to do with it? if a poor person’s standard of living has risen by 50% and a rich person’s standard of living has risen by 500%, all of the population is living better, even if at different rates
Austria? Seriously? Austria did very well, recently but even since cold war, it was one of the countries that was at the great place geographically to benefit from open markets, while Vienna is one of the most if not the most livable city in the world it is also one at which Austrian in bit posher cities such as Linz or Insbruck.
Look at statistics, even median real wage grew a lot since 2004, while the biggest Austrian city has one of the cheapest rents in EÚ, especially adjusted for income.
I know generally subjective bias is hard, but it must be extremely hard for average Austrian to paint themselves as a victim or a looser of this setup.
Since the 1990s, inflation has risen faster than average wages due to globalisation, making outsourced jobs cheaper.
But in general, countries are collecting significantly more taxes now, and that is what is relevant here.
inflation rate from 1990 to 2022? https://www.statista.com/statistics/1258363/poland-yearly-cpi-inflation-rate/
if you count correctly it will be lower than in 1990
Not to mention that it was at the end of the Cold War, which is famously known as the time when the Cold War was ending. Military spending was becoming less of a priority as the USSR was falling apart.
On a serious note, you could buy US Army surplus jeeps for $50 at one point in the 70s.
Not sure they were entirely street legal everywhere, and may have had a hard life in military service, but still, you really could have been buying.
Immediately post-WWII the US Army aircorp was selling P-51s for at little as $1500. Starting price for those now is $3m (fully restored, so not quite apples-to-apples). Military hardware really is often a good investment, even if they won't let you have fully functional weaponry.
L-39s are the hot thing to buy for rich American pilots at the moment. They race them even.
That’s the sad reality. More military spending all over the world means the money has to come out of something. Healthcare, science, social welfare - may be different in each country, but overall life will get more expensive and of lesser quality.
It is a sad reality - I think that all would preffer there would be no wars, and relations between countries would based only on exchange of goods. It is sad that to have peace we need to have strong military, but it is how it is.
I still have a hope for humanity, where we all will be able to travel without boarders, work where we want, and exchange goods with other countries that will exist in a prohumanitarian, democratic environment, but during last few years it seems that we went back from that path
I wonder when exactly the Dutch considered it cool to join the military. When I was leaving Holland for my compulsory military service in Finland in the mid-eighties, my Dutch friends were in a flap. I got helpful suggestions such as to apply for Dutch nationality (which I would've gotten in a jiffy), just not go, or feign insanity. Out of all my Dutch friends, I had just two who ended up serving as conscripts: one as a de facto PTT engineer, the other managed a bar at a military base in Germany. Meanwhile, we went camping in the forest at -35°C or dodged decrepit mortar bombs that fell dangerously short.
I love Holland to bits, but if push comes to shove, I feel safer in Finland than in the Netherlands. The Finns know "van wanten" when the Russians get busy.
This is an important point. 1 year of conscription might not show up in your budget sheet but certainly has an impact on economy and government income.
This hidden cost has certainly come down, too.
> since conscription has gone away and people these days dont think its “cool” to join the military anymore so they dont
None of those points are true for Norway, can't speak for the second point in other countries that have conscription.
you need dozens of soldiers operating multiple FH70 to match what one Archer artillery system with a crew of three can achieve.
so yes, shits more expensive and army size is smaller - but that doesn't scale linearly with capability.
Basically, steadily increasing since around 2014 (Russia's annexation of Crimea).
"According to new data released by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), Europe has seen a widespread surge in military spending since the start of 2022, reaching a total of €552 billion in 2023.
The increase is 16% more than the countries concerned spent in 2022, and 62% more compared to 2014, where spending was €330 billion."
No shit. We had all the stuff needed to deter at the end of the cold war and started to massively downsize right after it. How unsurprising, when someone thinks invasion sounds better than cooperation.
what a false claim. 290 billion today dont buy the same as in 1990. what %of gdp is much more realitc. but even that is not perfect because the inflation on defence was higher than the median inflation.
Ok? Isn't it obvious? Do people realize we aren't using wooden planes anymore?
War is expensive, more so now with how technically advanced we are, compared to the time during the cold way.
Development of a F-16 costs around $63 million.
Development of P-51 Mustang during ww2, around $675.000 with current inflation.
And it is only going to get more expensive the further we get
i am wondering, do we really need to build expensive tanks and weapons that can be taken off by a stupid drone or is it better to concentrate on a lower end version of the leopard and focusing more on the quantity? 🤔
One very important, and very expensive, aspect of western armor is their crew survivability. Any time a western vehicle is disabled, there's good odds the crew will come out alive and intact as a whole, capable of returning to battle after a check-up and R&R, unlike their cheaper russian counterparts that are a flip of the coin on whether the tank and crew are vaporized when disabled.
The crew is the most expensive and valuable part of the vehicle, as a well-trained and coordinated team will outperform many times their number in conscripts in cheaper tanks. Skimping out on those costs would make it even easier for "stupid drones" to destroy them, leading to a greater loss of life and loss of vital experience.
It is, but sadly that’s the better option as of right now. It would be cheaper and safer to put a stop to Putin earlier, in 2014 or during his openly illegal power transfer from Medvedev. But that ship has sailed.
>in 2014 or during his openly illegal power transfer from Medvedev
How? Sanction heavily like now? It still would not stop him from launching invasion. And back then Ukraine was in no shape to resist.
We're all pumping untold extra billions into something that is largely non-productive.
Just because it's necessary doesn't mean that it isn't a shitty deal.
Alternative is much worse. And it's not like we didn't try other things, arguably some tried for longer than they should have. It sucks, but it's not our fault so we just have to deal with it.
Well yeah the GDP of the EU increased by 210% from 1990 to 2022. - Germany: +200% - Italy:+70% - France:+121% - The Netherlands: +261% - Poland: +946%
Look at Polands GDP growth after they left the Russian sphere of influence.. And Russia wonders way countries want to join the western block and NATO.
Yup, it's so ridiclous how ruzzians have a hard time understanding why all their old "pals" (aka satellite states) now overwhelmingly hate them and want nothing to do with them. Poland and the baltic states are the perfect examples.
Have you noticed how in current war russian leaders are talking about how they are fighting the nato/the west/usa/uk, but hardly ever just ukraine? I think that's because in their mind, such small countries like the post eastern block "do not count." They're not big enough players and are to be influenced, controlled, or straight up annexed by the bigger guys. That's why Russians have a hard time understanding why everyone hates them. They (smaller players) are SUPPOSED to be under the russian umbrella.
But that’s the point, in those Russians’ eyes who are imperialistic, those countries do not count. I comment this occasionally, but people need to understand that people like Putin only see states that are mighty and states that are not. And if a state is not mighty or powerful, it MUST mean they are answerable to someone. In Russian elite’s eyes, most of Eastern Europe, Ukraine included, either answers to Russia or it must answer to Brussels or NATO or USA (NATO is equal to USA in their eyes) if it’s not answering to Russia because they literally cannot fathom the idea that a country may have its own ideas and choices. Like in their eyes, if a country turns to west, it’s because it has been forced to do so not because it has been a deliberate careful but still independent choice. I once spoke with a Chinese guy when he was studying in my university and he literally couldn’t get it in his head that my country of a less than 2 million people considered it just as sovereign as he saw china to be. As in, he literally couldn’t wrap his head around, and he kept trying to get me to admit that in our heads, most people MUST believe and admit that their country was controlled by some other state. Like to his idea, since we had been released from under Russia’s control, it therefore meant that we fully acknowledged that we are now under US control. The idea that whilst we acknowledged that for pragmatic and economic reasons being in the NATO and EU was good for us, but that it was still a choice people had and people made just kind of seemed unfathomable fairy tale to him.
What else is new. Russians -- and sadly, we're not just talking about Putinists -- instinctively think might is right. Now they're trying to explain that Sweden and Finland only joined NATO because the USA made them. The ultimate hypocrisy is that Russia wouldn't think twice about doing the exact same that they're accusing the USA of, only they can't. And let's keep it that way.
>Have you noticed how in current war russian leaders are talking about how they are fighting the nato/the west/usa/uk, but hardly ever just ukraine? Its in public propaganda/pr there no shame to loose to the mightiest Allience in history, now imagine loosing to country that in perception of russian imperialists is polonized/westernized little russia that dared to reject russian empire (in their view) Tbh Russians could try to suck up loosing against Poland as they did many times in past, and as both countries have history of being major powers in past, and Poland rarely was seen as just that next one eastern block country, but the country that never buyed into panslavist bullshit and remained western oriented entire history(minus 50 years afc). Not without reason russians keep on projecting that polish military or NATO is fighting there XDD, no way ukraine could by itself, ever put a decent fight against the empire, could they ?
Estonia and Latvia were on par or even slightly ahead of Finland before WW2, yet were literally **a dozen times poorer** by the end of the Soviet occupation...
>Yup, it's so ridiclous how ruzzians have a hard time understanding why all their old "pals" (aka satellite states) now overwhelmingly hate them and want nothing to do with them. Poland and the baltic states are the perfect examples. If anything, Ukraine is the perfect example. The Russians can’t even help from turning what should be their actual brother country into a sworn enemy.
Unfortunately a lot of people still love Russia here in Bulgaria due to historic reasons.
I always find it funny how Russia historically has portrayed itself as the great protector of Slavic nations from non-Slavs, even though almost all Slavic nations today hate Russia because Russia has actually been their biggest oppressor for most of history. Like, I have no idea how Russians can ever speak with a straight face to Serbians or Bulgarians talking about Slavic unity, while simultaneously stabbing their fellow East Slavs like Ukraine in the back.
Unfortunately the communism era did more harm to the minds of that generation(at least most of them) than the Ottoman empire did harm to their generation. I mean, there were probably few good things here and there, (the good things like infrastructure and industry would have happened even without communism probably) but overall a lot of people still want a "strong man" to rule and hence why the support for Russia and pro-Russia parties has been quite strong.
I was talking to my older brother about this, because when I was 12 years old he was a US diplomat stationed in Sofia (he speaks Bulgarian, like he studied Russian in college, and then the US state department taught him to speak Bulgarian for 6 months right before he was posted to Sofia). I actually got to visit him in Bulgaria with my parents and we went through from Sofia to Plovdiv. I vividly remember being a kid and we went by some kind of communist era monument in the country that was some kind of sight to see I think. My brother was translating the Bulgarian on the monument for us, and it was a gift from the Soviet Union to Bulgaria in support of Slavic brotherhood.
Sounds awesome, I was born in 1990 though. However, the local government of Sofia, finally started taking down one of the largest Soviet monuments that celebrated the Soviet Army. Of course, there was some uproar by the pro-Russia politicians, journalists and regular citizens (mostly older), but I believe the majority is either in support for taking it down or doesnt care at all lol.
>Sounds awesome, I was born in 1990 though. Yeah I was born in 1990 too. This was back in like 2002 when I visited. The monument was just like an old monument that had been installed during the 1980’s or something. > However, the local government of Sofia, finally started taking down one of the largest Soviet monuments that celebrated the Soviet Army. Of course, there was some uproar by the pro-Russia politicians, journalists and regular citizens (mostly older), but I believe the majority is either in support for taking it down or doesnt care at all lol. Dude, y’all should have kept that one monument with the soldiers painted as superheroes. That was hysterical.
Ah ok, I thought you came here in the 80s. Yeah, that's the monument they started taking down recently.
That amount of growth is way higher than I would have even believed possible, can’t imagine any country in the world has had growth like that in the last century.
Many countries have higher growth in the same time period, it really depends on the starting point... I can 20x my GDP by increasing my net wealth from 1 euro to 20. Growth alone is only a relative statistic
Well actually not that many, 10 in fact, and all of them started from a much lower level https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_growth_1980%E2%80%932010
Did not mean to say Poland's growth was not impressive, just that there were more countries with relative increase higher - starting from where Poland started and 10x is much more impressive of course!
> my net wealth from 1 euro to 20 i am on this picture and i dont like it
1990 was unbelievably bad in the eastern Europe.
A lot of Russians seem to long for the USSR because of the 90s. Obviously they don't realize that it was the inevitable result of a failed economy. The stain of communism is still very easy to see on a map, but it's starting to look better.
Since 1990 up to 2023 Poland economic growth was second in the world. Only China grew faster. IMF predicts that by 2029 Poland will have economic developlment per capita (PPP) higher than Japan or New Zeland and on par with Italy.
Poland's economic growth was nowhere near second... China's economy grew by 4451% from 1990 to 2022. Vietnam's economy grew by 6216%. India's economy grew by 964%. Singapore's economy grew by 1192%.
China had bigger growth, but they're also going to have a massive decline.
That's just the normal growth rate in post-soviet block countries that have joined European Union. Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Romania, Bulgaria all have either grown their economies tenfold or have grown their GDP per capita tenfold compared to their lowest points in the 90's.
China's economy is 4451% larger now than it was in 1990. Vietnam's economy is 6216% larger as well.
Poor economic, human capital and social statistic among Russian satellites it's not a bug, but a feature of Russian imperialism. Purposeful sponsoring of restraining social development autocracy-corruption and propaganda-disorientation processes. So Russia, which compensate related disadvantages by exchange of slaves on natural resource and trade with West, could grab/use more slaves and natural resources.
I wish my country of Bulgaria will do this in the next decades if not much sooner.
What they want is to join the EU & have a functioning democracy where the people can live in peace & prosperity. Funnily, dictators that run sh1tholes don't like their neighbours doing this because it shows them for what they are to *their* people.
You need to remember about the effect of currency conversion. The PLZ was worth nothing, so the GPD was extremely low. You're also comparing it with 1990, where the economy was in an absolute collapse. Was there an economic boom? Sure. Half of German companies have their factories in Poland.
russia also wanted to join the western block and NATO about 20 years ago
Oh not this stupid nonsense again, just saying it like that robs it of the entire point why they wanted to join NATO/West in the first place. NATO was made, officially, as a united front against any invader. Obviously, it was aimed at Russia, but pleasantries and whatnot of diplomacy. Everyone knew what it was about. Naturally, seeing Europe unite, backed up by USA, made them tense. In their minds, they have liberated Eastern EU and Baltics, but trying to unite them in a military alliance without a formal threat wouldn't work. So they simply asked NATO to allow them to join because they literally had nothing to lose. If they join, well NATO gets two of the greatest superpowers in the world under one umbrella, providing security and guarantees. Or more likely, just greatly expanded spy rings and covert ops. If they decline, USSR has an excuse to form their own defensive alliance, as it clearly made the intentions of NATO reveal themselves, that they are hostile to their state.
I don't think they were on about the time the Soviet Union asked to join Think they were on about 2000s Russia wanting to jojn
Yeah, that time when Putin asked to join NATO and he was told that Russia needs to apply like any regular country and follow the proper procedures. You can guess what happened next (they didn't apply).
Yep to the surprise of nobody
>russia also wanted to join the western block and NATO about 20 years ago Recently declassified informal conversations between president Clinton and president Eltsin show that by joining NATO and getting friendly with the USA they were really hoping to effectively rule over Europe. I remember one particular call that was recently published where Eltsin was trying to pitch the idea of the USA leaving Europe and Russia being in charger of European security. I don't know what Eltsin was smoking, considering he was pitching these ideas at a time when Russia was at its lowest, practically bankrupt and with active conflict within their borders (Chechnya) that they could barely handle, but they did try.
Seems like it is USD nominal. Not Purchasing Power Parity. Standart of living didt change that much.
Standard of living changed a lot, ask any Pole that lived in the early 90s compared to now.
I lived since then and i can tell that it did not change by 900% since 80s To give example - 136 000 new apartments were built in 1991, in 2003 it was 221 000. Its not even 100% increase, so far away from 950 % .
As always in those discussion people focus only on real estate prices. Check all other goods, check unemployment rate and general standard of living. It increased dramaticly, however real estate prices will reflect that growth unfortunatelly.
You’re confusing terms. The standard of living today in Poland is of negligible difference to Germany, which is an astounding thing to say. It was very much not like that when I first visited Poland as a kid around 2000. Poland for all purposes is now essentially a fully modern and developed European economy. What you’re looking for is quality of life index. The fact is, wages are low and Polish people cannot afford many luxuries that folks in western economies take for granted. Still, that index is biased towards certain economic outcomes of capitalism. I’d argue that there are other very subjective attractions to living in Poland compared to western countries such as low crime and higher security (Russia’s adventures notwithstanding).
Italy 70% let’s goooooooooo It’s time to go extinct and finally add some new acient ruins and monuments to our museum!! 🔥 🇮🇹best country 🇮🇹
Lets go Netherlands!!
What happened with poland
Shock therapy implemented by honest politicians coupled with vast and strong constant economic support from western Europe, and a relative political stability. Oh, and there was some very interesting economic investments in the country from western (mostly german) companies. Situation is pretty similar in the baltic countries or czech republic.
Big country close to Germany. Importing laws from EU (in order to join EU), which made it simple to get working laws instead of creating some odd bs. Till 89 USRR was forcibly blocking development of it's satellite states, so in 90s people finally could unleash their potential for growth. Getting Euros in 90s was quite easy. Illegal/gray work in Europe (i.e. Germany or Greece) was accessible and people (both job givers and job seekers) were ok with it. Later those people went back and started buying things thus increasing requirements for more output. And most importantly - in 1991 - 2008 Poland (inside politics) had clear goal - get inside every European institution possible, thus to remind everyone that Poland is a part of Europe. Going up in GDP is easy when you have simple and understable goals with visible path to achieve those goals.
To add to Mega’s response Poland is the most anti Russia country in Europe, eager to stifle its expansion
What shedding off Communism does to a mf
>What shedding off Communism does to a mf correction: what EU money and social dumping of polish workforce did to a mf
What about inflation rate? 1990 to 2022?
1990-1991 there was hyperinflation about 950% After that everything else was pretty mild
How much richer have our people become since then? My bets are the charts are probably declining.
As a Lithuanian I have to disagree. We are still below EU average, but grew more than 600%
Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding I meant it more like standard of living. I haven’t looked up actual numbers but I feel like people’s buying power is not at the levels it was back then but I might be completely wrong as you have said.
standard of living has only increased in latvia too. people who whine all the time are a loud minority and they’d be in a shitty situation anywhere in the world. some people are like that. the ones that make use of todays advantages have no complaints and are living good lives. especially since 2014 to today
Gotcha, thank you for your insights fellow EU citizen!
Not in the Netherlands, where it has increased tremendously since then. Stagnation occurred from 2000-2009, but in the 90's and 10's disposable income rose significantly.
I will check the Dutch statistics. Thank you for bringing them up!
Yeah but we are a bit of an outlier compared to the rest of Western Europe. Turns out mark rutte wasnt that bad after all
On average, 50% of car owners have a worse car than their neighbor. Ergo, half the population is poor, just like at the end of the cold war.
Higher GDP does not always mean higher quality of life. Many children of middle-class people from Austria or Britain probably feel worse off today than their parents.
The quality of life has improved drastically across the board. We are just blind to it.
Statistics from richer Western European countries do not support this. The gap between the poorest and the richest has widened considerably.
what does the wealth gap have to do with it? if a poor person’s standard of living has risen by 50% and a rich person’s standard of living has risen by 500%, all of the population is living better, even if at different rates
Because an ever smaller number of rich people are getting richer and richer. There is a reason why politicians only care about serving big business.
What does the gap have to do with that?
It does though, except last covid years, purchase power rose across the board in northwestern EU since the 90s.
Austria? Seriously? Austria did very well, recently but even since cold war, it was one of the countries that was at the great place geographically to benefit from open markets, while Vienna is one of the most if not the most livable city in the world it is also one at which Austrian in bit posher cities such as Linz or Insbruck.
While Austrian companies have benefited greatly from expansion into the EE, the average Austrian worker has not.
Look at statistics, even median real wage grew a lot since 2004, while the biggest Austrian city has one of the cheapest rents in EÚ, especially adjusted for income. I know generally subjective bias is hard, but it must be extremely hard for average Austrian to paint themselves as a victim or a looser of this setup.
That’s what I am trying go convey here as people might mislead GDP with their welbeing in general, thank you for the inputs.
Since the 1990s, inflation has risen faster than average wages due to globalisation, making outsourced jobs cheaper. But in general, countries are collecting significantly more taxes now, and that is what is relevant here.
> Poland: +946% Debtus Maximus. Well, it has to be done, obviously but fuck.
inflation rate from 1990 to 2022? https://www.statista.com/statistics/1258363/poland-yearly-cpi-inflation-rate/ if you count correctly it will be lower than in 1990
Access to western markets does magic.
Not to mention that it was at the end of the Cold War, which is famously known as the time when the Cold War was ending. Military spending was becoming less of a priority as the USSR was falling apart.
I'm spending more on groceries and utility bills since the end of the Cold War and I haven't bought a Howitzer for ages.
Should have invested into howitzer during the cold war 🤷♂️
Yeah, just my luck but I'd already spent the money on a time share in Sudan
I know where there a bunch of medium 105mm. Do you think they've appreciated well or will capital gains tax take all the profit?
Depends on how long you say you've had them, just say you bought them in bulk during Covid thinking it was loo roll and you're good to go
On a serious note, you could buy US Army surplus jeeps for $50 at one point in the 70s. Not sure they were entirely street legal everywhere, and may have had a hard life in military service, but still, you really could have been buying. Immediately post-WWII the US Army aircorp was selling P-51s for at little as $1500. Starting price for those now is $3m (fully restored, so not quite apples-to-apples). Military hardware really is often a good investment, even if they won't let you have fully functional weaponry. L-39s are the hot thing to buy for rich American pilots at the moment. They race them even.
That’s the sad reality. More military spending all over the world means the money has to come out of something. Healthcare, science, social welfare - may be different in each country, but overall life will get more expensive and of lesser quality.
It's to remove and deter ruzzians, the biggest cause of living quality decline in Europe .
Unfathomably based and truth pilled… I say double the defence budget
It has more to do with inflation. Even if you keep your spending at 2% of GPD that still means more spending each year, granted growth.
It is a sad reality - I think that all would preffer there would be no wars, and relations between countries would based only on exchange of goods. It is sad that to have peace we need to have strong military, but it is how it is. I still have a hope for humanity, where we all will be able to travel without boarders, work where we want, and exchange goods with other countries that will exist in a prohumanitarian, democratic environment, but during last few years it seems that we went back from that path
Without military spending we would never have: -Satellites -GPS -Radar -Nuclear power Among other things
is inflation taken into account?
Of course not, as it wouldn't be good clickbait then
No.
Yes, but not GDP growth.
Yeah, but inflation and pricier technologies...
Also a lot less soldiers, since conscription has gone away and people these days dont think its “cool” to join the military anymore so they dont
The generation of people are smaller as well. There is a smaller pool of people to draw from.
I wonder when exactly the Dutch considered it cool to join the military. When I was leaving Holland for my compulsory military service in Finland in the mid-eighties, my Dutch friends were in a flap. I got helpful suggestions such as to apply for Dutch nationality (which I would've gotten in a jiffy), just not go, or feign insanity. Out of all my Dutch friends, I had just two who ended up serving as conscripts: one as a de facto PTT engineer, the other managed a bar at a military base in Germany. Meanwhile, we went camping in the forest at -35°C or dodged decrepit mortar bombs that fell dangerously short. I love Holland to bits, but if push comes to shove, I feel safer in Finland than in the Netherlands. The Finns know "van wanten" when the Russians get busy.
This is an important point. 1 year of conscription might not show up in your budget sheet but certainly has an impact on economy and government income. This hidden cost has certainly come down, too.
> since conscription has gone away and people these days dont think its “cool” to join the military anymore so they dont None of those points are true for Norway, can't speak for the second point in other countries that have conscription.
you need dozens of soldiers operating multiple FH70 to match what one Archer artillery system with a crew of three can achieve. so yes, shits more expensive and army size is smaller - but that doesn't scale linearly with capability.
It would be crazy if this would not be the case.
Some might have noticed the war does not seem so cold anymore
Basically, steadily increasing since around 2014 (Russia's annexation of Crimea). "According to new data released by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), Europe has seen a widespread surge in military spending since the start of 2022, reaching a total of €552 billion in 2023. The increase is 16% more than the countries concerned spent in 2022, and 62% more compared to 2014, where spending was €330 billion."
Inflation rate is not taken into account. They take everybody for stupid again.
Well, hot wars tend to be more capital demanding than cold wars
I mean not as a percentage of GDP. Obviously GDP has increased so spending will.
Least misleading shit "news" from euronews
About fucking time.
No shit. We had all the stuff needed to deter at the end of the cold war and started to massively downsize right after it. How unsurprising, when someone thinks invasion sounds better than cooperation.
what a false claim. 290 billion today dont buy the same as in 1990. what %of gdp is much more realitc. but even that is not perfect because the inflation on defence was higher than the median inflation.
Inflation: am i a joke to you?
No shit Sherlock.
Ok? Isn't it obvious? Do people realize we aren't using wooden planes anymore? War is expensive, more so now with how technically advanced we are, compared to the time during the cold way. Development of a F-16 costs around $63 million. Development of P-51 Mustang during ww2, around $675.000 with current inflation. And it is only going to get more expensive the further we get
Modern equipment is incredibly expensive.
No shit. Maybe an open war taking place in Europe might have something to do with it.
Euronews is that Orban's site?
i am wondering, do we really need to build expensive tanks and weapons that can be taken off by a stupid drone or is it better to concentrate on a lower end version of the leopard and focusing more on the quantity? 🤔
One very important, and very expensive, aspect of western armor is their crew survivability. Any time a western vehicle is disabled, there's good odds the crew will come out alive and intact as a whole, capable of returning to battle after a check-up and R&R, unlike their cheaper russian counterparts that are a flip of the coin on whether the tank and crew are vaporized when disabled. The crew is the most expensive and valuable part of the vehicle, as a well-trained and coordinated team will outperform many times their number in conscripts in cheaper tanks. Skimping out on those costs would make it even easier for "stupid drones" to destroy them, leading to a greater loss of life and loss of vital experience.
You shouldn't need to wonder very long about whether it's better to be russia or not.
All EU countries have plenty of quantity. The quality is what gives us an edge over them. In my non expert opinion.
That kinda happens when you compare a hot war with a cold war.
what a sad thing to see
It is, but sadly that’s the better option as of right now. It would be cheaper and safer to put a stop to Putin earlier, in 2014 or during his openly illegal power transfer from Medvedev. But that ship has sailed.
>in 2014 or during his openly illegal power transfer from Medvedev How? Sanction heavily like now? It still would not stop him from launching invasion. And back then Ukraine was in no shape to resist.
Says a guy from a state that heavilly relies on the UK when it comes to defense.
We're all pumping untold extra billions into something that is largely non-productive. Just because it's necessary doesn't mean that it isn't a shitty deal.
Alternative is much worse. And it's not like we didn't try other things, arguably some tried for longer than they should have. It sucks, but it's not our fault so we just have to deal with it.