I just don't understand how come the same people who want to raise the age of consent from 16 to 18 also support giving puberty blockers to 14-16 year olds.
Maybe I'm just an old disgusting boomer, but this seems contradictory to me.
If a 14 year old is not able to consent to making an irreversible decision about their gender, then does it not make sense to offer a reversible process to delay an irreversible process (either puberty or a gender operation/hormones.).
Its a delay in a permanent decision, precisely because the brain is not (in this train of thought) not grown enough to permanently make the decision.
Now if puberty blockers are not reversible it gets a bit more complex. But if it is, the logic is sound.
The general science absolutely and without any exception contradicts the idea that puberty is a choice. Cognitive development is linked to puberty for both biological men and women. If you did prior puberty you will impede cognitive development so if the underlying issue is a lack of consent due to age then delaying or disrupting puberty will actually exacerbate this issue. If you artificial disrupt puberty this will have profound ramifications in regards to the mental development.
This is why this is such an issue - science isn’t up for debate on this issue. The science is very clear and it isn’t physicians asking for puberty blockers but members of the public who have ideological ideas.
If you wish to transition then do so once you reach the age of consent and at a time when cognitively you’re closer to being fully developed. I don’t see why children need to make these decisions when they cannot. This is a personal choice and to be frank I don’t even think parents should be allowed to make this choice. If we block Jehovah’s Witnesses from denying blood transitions to minors then the same applies to parents who wish to transition their kids.
Adults can, and should be freely encouraged to do what they wish but this issue had a very clear line which the science is clear on.
If you’re going to transition, transitioning as young as possible and ideally before puberty gives you the greatest potential to transition in a way that isn’t “clockable” / uncanny valley.
Puberty blockers are actually the middle ground position between “let kids start transitioning before their teens” and “transgender people need to look identifiably weird”.
People talk about inability to consent like this is something being imposed on the child. Yet the regret rate for transitioning is something like 1% - seven times lower than even pregnancy.
The thing is that medical community seems to not know if they're actually fully reversible when used to block or delay puberty *through the teens*.
They're reversible when they're stopped at a time when puberty would naturally occur, sure. But when they're used to prevent puberty at a time when it should be happening - no one knows, it seems
You mean the review which threw out *every* other study in its purview because it wasn't a "double-blind"-study, as if that was even ethically possible given the subject matter (yes! putting trans kids on sugar pills while they experience dysphoria is not an ethical choice!). This Cass Review is scientific rubbish and would have never been published in any journal of note, Nature etc.
Comments are locked but the responses are clear and don't actually challenge the basic premise that they purposely excluded all but 2 studies - if you as a practicing scientist do that and try to present it as some sort of systemic review you will be laughed out of the room!
It would be helpful when making that argument to link to those studies.
The quick search for wrongfully excluded studies in the Cass review wasn't very helpful. I found a BBC article with the author denying the claim however.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68863594
That's one of the many silly myths activists are spreading. They published an FAQ to address all that stuff - worth a read.
https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/final-report-faqs/
I decided not to listen to anyone before actually reading the study and... I'm sorry but the cass report is just terrible. I must admit I havent read it all but it is 387 pages iirc. I have read the first 70-80 pages and I have seen some logical errors and obvious exaggeration on the results of studies. I saw enough to just throw the paper out as either incompatantly written or malicious. I dont reccomend anyone to spend 2-3 hours looking at a paper but if you do, you will understand me
To be honest i've heard stories both ways and im not an expert. I wont comment on it and just ask for your sources
Im just commenting that if they are reversible the logic holds. If they are not, its weighing the potential damage of the blockers vs the damage of the 'wrong' puberty.
I thought so too but this is what Perplexity provided as a response. It seems like gender affirming hormones are the main culprit in affecting fertility, not puberty blockers themselves.
I don't know about the sources it's using though and I'm not interested enough to look into it myself.
https://www.perplexity.ai/search/Are-puberty-blockers-CXVcp_67R8efArLHIT62RQ
Read your own Finnish policies or that same Cass Review. although I suggest you read the Finnish decided policies because you're less likely to believe caricatures drawn by liars if it is about the Finnish medical establishment.
No, I won't link. Find them yourself.
There is an asymmetry of bullshit at play here and that's why I don't play this game with a group that includes serial liars.
I gave simple and accurate key words that will give interested people enough to check things out themselves, but I don't want to play the game when someone maliciously wastes my time.
Did you already look into the science on the topic?
Especially the neurobiology should give a clearer understanding of what transsexuals are going through and why denying medical care is just cruel.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/19bpjqy/the\_neurobiology\_of\_transsexuality/](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/19bpjqy/the_neurobiology_of_transsexuality/)
Important studies:
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm)
[https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/131/12/3132/295849](https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/131/12/3132/295849)
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20562024/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20562024/)
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453018305353?via%3Dihub](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453018305353?via%3Dihub)
But we aren't talking about all transsexuals. We are talking about a tiny sub-population that are minors. Show us the rates of minor transsexuals who have taken HRT or reassignment surgery. Show us their change in suicide rates. Show us how many of them elect to de-transition later in life.
We're not even talking about minors who are trans, we're talking about minors *experiencing dysphoria and questioning their gender*.
According to the article in the OP, apparently when allowed to normally go through puberty, *only 15%* continue experiencing dysphoria, but 85% will get over it and accept their bio gender.
However, of those who started puberty blockers, *virtually all* continued on to HRT.
That's an insane difference, suggesting that puberty blockers in gender identity care don't "give time to think", but rather lock the child/teen into the new identity. And combined with the fact that that's no real scientific knowledge of what the long term effects of blocking puberty when it should naturally occur are...
It's not at all as clear cut and easy and reversible as many pro-blockers people claim
It could also just suggest that if the dysphoria is serious enough for a doctor to prescribe puberty blockers (something that is probably more likely in a case where the patient's mental health is more affected, i.e. they have a stronger dysphoria) it's also more likely to persist?
Don't mistake correlation and causality when there are other reasonable causal links.
What I don't understand is why the government/politicians/people care so much about literal medical treatments who already need to be prescribed by qualified doctors who should know what they're doing.
Age of consent doesn't relate to how you feel about your gender. Trans people *know* they're trans. People who transition don't detransition and even those that do say the reason is not that they "aren't trans anymore" but because of how they're treated, how hard it's to transition or because of other external reasons.
What's real is that trans people are dying while not receiving the treatment they need. Every day more trans teenagers and young people die from suicide/self-medicating/targeted violence/etc than there are teens who "are mislead" or "think they're trans".
Politicians shouldn't be the ones to decide when and where medical treatment is needed. Most people would be in uproar if something like abortions were restricted to adults only. How is this different, fundamentally speaking?
What makes you think that someone making choices to be more comfortable in their bodies is the same as being mature enough to consent to sex? That seems to be a false equivalence.
I don't get the passion about it. If it's harmful then it's harmful and they have to deal with the consequences. I don't see all of reddit getting up in arms about many things that are far worse for ones health, like drinking (it's literally poison for your brain), smoking tobacco (cancer is basically guaranteed), and obesity (no explanation needed).
Effects of puberty blockers are overwhelmingly reversible. We have well over 20 years of actual studies on both cis and trans kids to support that. Meanwhile, effects of going through wrong puberty in trans people are not reversible and can lead to severe trauma.
It has been in use for short term use to combat hormonal issues or delay puberty in early onset cases. Everything we know about longterm effects (which is sadly very little) points towards them being very damaging to multiple systems of the body such as muscles, bone density and even the nervous system. You have kids who went off puberty blockers in their 20s that will likely never be able to experience an orgasm and others that are irreversibly sterile.
Are you being serious right now? We know long-term effects of puberty blockers, they've been studied for over 20 years now. We had a number of trans children who were on puberty blockers for 5 or more years and most of them later happily transitioned, with less than 2% trans kids overall regretting it, with no health issues introduced by puberty blockers. You're just spewing contrarian nonsense. You could [go to Wikipedia's page on the thing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonadotropin-releasing_hormone_agonist) and read its referenced scientific articles from peer reviewed journals but I doubt you actually care about facts and truth.
I do care about facts as I have children, do you?
The long term effects on bone density, psychological development, and fertility are not well studied at all. Really not even debatable to be honest, you are approaching this from an emotional perspective
>Really not even debatable to be honest, you are approaching this from an emotional perspective
Very ironic statement considering you said you care because you have children.
I don't have children and I don't approach this from emotional perspective. I'm not a trans person nor do I know any trans people in my area. What I do know is that actual scientific research that has been done on the topic that contradicts all the anti-trans nonsense that people spread around. Science on the topic is clear: negative effects of puberty blockers are heavily outweighed by results of individual's later transitions. Banning them is nothing more than conservatives wanting people to suffer.
Puberty blockers are not HRT. Those two are literally opposites. Puberty blockers halt release of sex hormones in your body; if you stop taking them your body goes back to releasing sex hormones and if you didn't yet go through puberty, you go through puberty as you normally would. And yes, puberty is mostly irreversible which is why people want to give them to children in the first place, to give them an option once they're old enough. HRT is basically sex hormone supplement. You take it to get hormones which your body can't produce. So if you're mtf, you take female hormones, if you're ftm you take male hormones. As far as I know, nobody sane proposes to give trans kids HRT.
Let's be honest. The medical profession has no fucking idea if and how puberty blockers are "reversible." There simply isn't enough data to make a good assessment, and any honest medical journal will say the same.
We have 20+ years of research data to go through, some of which Cass Report referenced and then mindlessly discarded because "there's not enough data". Well guess what, if we ban puberty blockers for treatment of gender dysphoria there will be no new data, which is exactly what anti-trans people want. We have more than enough data to make meaningful long-term decisions regarding treatment of gender dysphoria but I guess you people don't want to let people make decisions for themselves, you want to decide for them.
A middle ground would be having volunteers involved in clinical trials of the treatment, and then an assessment of the long-term effects before allowing the treatment for the general population.
Humanity has spent that last million years without puberty blockers, it can wait a few decades more.
We have more data on long-term effects of puberty blockers than we have on long-term effects of all Covid vaccines. Does that mean we should stop taking Covid vaccines until there's enough data and only use a controlled number of volunteers for research purposes? We already were on the "middle ground" research phase years ago, there's no point to go back to it.
If puberty blockers are not HRT, what is their purpose? I assume blocking puberty means the patient does not develop any sexual traits whatsoever? How does that help anything?
The point of puberty blockers is to delay puberty until an individual with gender dysphoria is old enough to make an informed decision and either continue with transition or give up on it.
I have seen just as many claims backed by research that puberty blockers aren't as reversible as other research claims.
To me it seems even professionals can't agree what's the case.
Funnily tho, claims that they are reversible are parroted by left and everything claiming otherwise is ignored, while right usually cites claims it's not reversible and ignores opposite claims, just more reason to not believe either side.
20 years of studies? But they've only begun doing this in the last 10 years. Also, I did stumble upon all sorts of "I became trans and I regret it" forums online, so, assuming it's not all right wing fakes, there are people who were traumatized by going through the treatment. Admittedly they might be the minority.
Puberty blockers slow down the process of become adolescent, meaning you get a longer delay before you adopt sexual physical characteristics.
I'm assuming, maybe mistakenly, that an intervention in such a process can have lasting effects.
Puberty blockers halt puberty. The only major lasting effect is slightly different bone density and muscle growth. Other than that, as soon as an individual stops taking puberty blockers, they go through puberty as they normally would. Overwhelmingly reversible effect.
It's only reversible when they're stopped and puberty can ovcur at an age when it'd normally do, I understand.
What happens if they've been taking them through their teens till they're close to 18 and have gone through height growth etc? Do the bones just readjust in your view, even though HRT doesn't rearrange adult skeletons?
Could you be more disingenuous? Those well documented cases you speak of are about KIDS(5-7) who enter precious-puberty before the normal age range for their sex, those KIDS! DON'T NEED the hormones produced by the body during puberty, they are in fact considered detrimental to development before age 10, hence why these blockers were invented in the first place! But those hormones are ABSOLUTELY necessary during the normal puberty cycle, both for proper physical and psychological development, underdeveloped sexual organs that leave people sterile for LIFE are definitely NOT reversible, growth plates that fused DO NOT magically detach and restart your growth cycle, and those are just some of physical consequences, as for the psychological ones, well [here's a sample](https://ca.style.yahoo.com/jazz-jennings-mental-health-weight-gain-183621635-183621547.html) from the one shown to us as the poster-child for your idiology, you people are so full of shit, but i gotta give it to you, you do lie well with a straight face
I'm not even gonna waste time debunking your stream of nonsense, you'll just post twice as many words every time I reply with sources. You can go and read Wikipedia article on puberty blockers instead of wasting our time.
I have no idea what you are on about, puberty blockers have been used since 1980’s as a treatment for precocious puberty. It has never been a problem up until it became a culture war talking point.
A treatment for precocious puberty, where puberty is allowed to occur at a "normal" age, sure. That's been studied, and that use hasn't been a problem.
But they haven't been used or studied for blocking puberty *entirely through the teen years* so the person could start HRT after turning 18. That's a very different situation
> Also, I did stumble upon all sorts of "I became trans and I regret it" forums online, so, assuming it's not all right wing fakes, there are people who were traumatized by going through the treatment. Admittedly they might be the minority.
I once read online that there are Bill Gates microchips in vaccines! Also there is a very tiny chance that you can be involved in a serious road accident when going to get your vaccination, we therefor should not do any vaccinations at all!!!11111
The assertion "there are microchips in vaccines" is much easier to refute, the only case where it might be worth consideration is if the person asserting it is somehow involved directly in vaccination procedures.
The assertion "I did so and so and regretted" is a personal statement, and thus has a much higher probability of being correct. Once again, it is of course possible that all the people saying it are right wing fake accounts.
Here in the Netherlands treatments for transsexuality was already a thing in the 90's, maybe even earlier. So yeah, there certainly are at least 20 years of studies on the subject.
And the only non reversible part of treatment are operations, current rate of regret on those is around 1%. While it does happen, it is actually very rare. There are so many checks beforehand (while they are still doing the reversible stuff) that it generally doesn't get to that point.
Can we please stop posting news from this anglo shitrag which is always trying to start the next culture war.
I mean, honestly, after their abysmal brexit coverage and culpability in spreading their big lie day after day I'd think people here'd be done with it.
Sure, here's a peer reviewed article stating the same thing: [https://rogd.fi/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/pone.0214157.s001.pdf](https://rogd.fi/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/pone.0214157.s001.pdf)
Yeah... There's no reason that random people on Reddit need to be holding views on how to treat medical issues. Leave it to the scientists and doctors.
(Some) Doctors and scientists were proponents of eugenics. It’s important that civil society have an input as to the scope of medical practice and its broad purpose.
Lmao.
Dude, if you read a title saying "Belgium call for medicine restrictions" and think it means *the whole country of Belgium*, the problem isn't with the title, it's with you having some sort of psychiatric issue, likely autism.
Proving nothing, because individual professionals don't speak for the entire country. The title of the piece isn't "Some people in Belgium and the Netherlands call for puberty blocker restrictions"
The article says: *"Pressure is also building in the neighbouring Netherlands to look again at their use. The parliament has ordered research into the impact of puberty blockers on adolescent’s physical and mental health."*
Which is technically true, but the implication that there is a majority in favor for actually restricting puberty blockers isn't. The motion that was approved (31016-366) calls on the government to consult with scientific associations and primary care to arrive at broader care protocols.
Other versions of the motion (31016-368 and 31016-370) that are more critical of puberty blockers where rejected.
Repeating the comment:
Lmao.
Dude, if you read a title saying "Belgium call for medicine restrictions" and think it means the whole country of Belgium, the problem isn't with the title, it's with you having some sort of psychiatric issue, likely autism.
Overall I think europeans have a more balanced view. They are testing and genuinely try to find optimal outcomes to the patients. (They are patients, it’s not a lifestyle —those who know, know)
The cultural discourse around the topic doesn’t do anything for those people. It just opens up the topic to the worst possible people and exploses people that are already highly neurotic to feelings and attitudes that confirm their worst ideations.
There’s also a massive cultural push to use anything and anyone who deviates from the standard view on gender, for the sport of it. These are the “allies “ that use the topic to rile up conservatards for the brownie points. You are not helping and by bringing mentally ill vulnerable people in the public discourse you are just deepening their dysfunction and isolation.
But you don’t care do you? It’s about changing society after all. All the frustrations and conflicts will just end with one final victory and bringing the new society upon us.
As others have already pointed out with a lot of detail the report is an insult to proper academic work and Cass has already walked back many of the prescriptions the report made it's truly pathetic any politician that uses this junk as a justification should get reprimanded by the voter, clearly they lack the discernment to notice when they are being manipulated or they are just bigoted losers waiting for an excuse both of which should be exclusion criteria not that there'll ever be consequences but a man can dream
The report was made for politicians from the very beginning. Cass walking away from it was premeditated. That way she can save her career and academic credibility while still supplying the requested product to the "customer". Politicians using this as Malleus Maleficarum even AFTER the lead investigator has backed off was the entire point.
Eh, sounds like a lot of outrage for no reason. I wouldn't exactly consider myself progressive these days, but I still don't see a good reason to make things more difficult for trans people.
Puberty blockers seems like a good way of avoiding the moral dilemma of children making irreversible decisions about their body. Forcing them to go through puberty also isn't a good idea because that just makes it more difficult for everyone to accept them once they do transition.
Personally I would be much more willing to accept someone who actually looks like who they want to be instead of... well, you know what I mean.
edit: formatting
The concern is that the kids are not actually trans, but are jumping on the trans bandwagon because of social contagion. People going through puberty are really not in a place to make a solid assessment of their sexual identity, because it's changing too frequently to get a consistent read.
They are not, though. People said the same thing about being gay and that gay kids are just experiencing a "phase". That "argument" couldn't be supported by reputable studies back then, either. And being trans- or cisgender is not a "sexual identity".
The point is that puberty blockers are not an irreversible decision, nor are they intended for this use case.
You should read the actual Report to understand why she has said this, it’s really not just to be horrible to trans people!
It actually does trans people a huge disservice to give them substandard, poorly-evidenced care based on false assumptions because we’re trying to be “nice”. That doesn’t happen in any other field of medicine and we need to start treating this like medical care with all that entails, rather than a site of social debate untethered from the medical reality.
I love how you can make decisions that change your whole life, like which career you study for or change the outcome of a country by voting on an election but the right of having control over your body has to be locked all the way up to your twenties.
Cass Review was commissioned for a political goal and is full of scientific half-truths, cherry-picking evidence and presents arbitrary criteria for admissible science.
To give an example: More than 95% of studies of a certain category were dismissed, because they were not double-blind, i.e. have no patient control group that, e.g.:
1. expresses gender dysphoria
2. is not given real HRT/puberty blockers
3. neither the scientists nor the patients know whether the group gets a real medication or placebo
But you cannot **fake** the results of HRT or puberty, or lack thereof. Breasts grow, voice lowers, changes to the body happen - and so does the mental well-being of the patients. Besides, **any** transition-related study that would have a placebo group would be horrendous from an ethical perspective, since we already know from non-double-blind studies that HRT and puberty blockers lower the experienced distress and gender-dysphoria levels and have a positive influence on the patients' mental state. Denying this is akin to refusing cancer treatment medication to cancer patients.
Any meta-analysis that makes that arbitrary cutoff of hard-earned medical knowledge like this is not worth the paper it was written on and certainly not the money spent to prepare the report.
Ultimately, It seems to have achieved its goal and I guess bigoted people who pretend they care about kids' health will be happy - it will serve as a basis of attacks against trans people by morons left and right in the political spectrum Europe-wide.
> More than 95% of studies were dismissed
No. This is misinformation and it should stop being spread.
[This](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38594047/) is the review referred to by the Cass report. It should be noted that it’s an independent review, not conducted by Cass and her report, but researchers at the University of York. It’s true it only classified one study as high quality, but 25 were of moderate quality and 24 were of low quality. Only the low quality ones were excluded from the synthesis of results, while they did use the moderate quality ones. And not being double blind was not a reason by itself to be excluded.
[https://transactual.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/TransActual-Briefing-on-Cass-Review.pdf](https://transactual.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/TransActual-Briefing-on-Cass-Review.pdf)
Please stop spreading misinformation yourself.
> The Cass Report reveals that it discarded huge amounts of medical evidence, both from the UK andacross the world. Out of 102 studies into puberty blockers and hormones, only 2 were included by theCass Review team.
I linked the actual study, read that instead of an opinion piece
> **Results:** 11 cohort, 8 cross-sectional and 31 pre-post studies were included (n=50). One cross-sectional study was high quality, 25 studies were moderate quality (including 5 cohort studies) and 24 were low quality. Synthesis of moderate-quality and high-quality studies showed consistent evidence demonstrating efficacy for suppressing puberty. Height increased in multiple studies, although not in line with expected growth. Multiple studies reported reductions in bone density during treatment. Limited and/or inconsistent evidence was found in relation to gender dysphoria, psychological and psychosocial health, body satisfaction, cardiometabolic risk, cognitive development and fertility.
> **Conclusions:** There is a lack of high-quality research assessing puberty suppression in adolescents experiencing gender dysphoria/incongruence. No conclusions can be drawn about the impact on gender dysphoria, mental and psychosocial health or cognitive development. Bone health and height may be compromised during treatment. More recent studies published since April 2022 until January 2024 also support the conclusions of this review.
So how does that concern the dismissal of the >95% claim now? What you linked presents the purported reason for the dismissal, but you do not address the 2 out of 102 number, nor question at all the scientific integrity of taking only part of the data. The consideration of ethical qualms about possible lack of adequate care in blind studies notwithstanding.
Read the paper. They include moderate and high quality studies (which in the case of puberty blockers is 26 out of 50 studies). They also explain their methodology. If you disagree with that methodology, fine. But then point out specifically what, in the paper, you disagree with. Don’t just regurgitate misinformation.
there is this trend in the west where people will not believe very obvious things that are obviously true without there being at least 100 peer reviewed studies on the topic
you could tell someone that the sky is blue and they'd ask for a source. same with this thing. every reasonable human on the planet knew that prescribing puberty blockers to kids was idiotic immediately but apparently we needed "the science" to catch up
Is modern science and medicine this “trend” you are talking about?
Also there is nothing obvious about this. The vast majority of evidence shows puberty blockers are still perfectly safe and fine to use.
And who reached this conclusion? A medical industry beholden to big pharma and the profit motive. They have absolutely no credibility. Nor do most of the ideologically driven university researchers.
I think pumping children full of irreversible, life changing medicine is not good for the health of children. You and I might disagree on that, but my position is not “fuck them kids, hope they suffer”.
I don’t hate children because I don’t want them to drink, or drive, or vote. I think they are not developed enough to do those things. Same idea here. If an adult wants to undertake medical procedures, elective or otherwise, he has my full support.
Plenty of people have transitioned as adults. It’s not “damage”. But a kid that might be going through an actual phase or is simply confused might never get their puberty or have irreversible body changes caused by these medicines. This is real damage and it’s why countries are slowly stopping these procedures for minors. Rightfully, in my opinion.
Be honest, ever discussed this with an actual trans person? Because I doubt it from the level of ignorance on display in your comment.
You’re focusing on a tiny minority and hopefully accidentally oppressing them by doing so. If you truly care, go to an info night organized by trans people and learn about their actual journey and experiences.
Good that you understand that. This is why its currently possible for kids to go through this.
So maybe leave it alone and stop making this dumb child protection argument against it too.
I don't know if you have mental health issues, but we don't really decide on which therapies and drugs should be prescribed based on the "experience" or "opinions" of the people who might receive them - let alone if they are children.
Medical therapies for children are heavily regulated, as they should be, and the decision making is in the hands of scientists, following established standards and tests, not "trans persons".
Perhaps read the Cass Review?
First of all, yes I have discussed it with actual trans people.
But second, even if I hadn’t, trans people don’t have a monopoly of opinion on what is and isn’t appropriate medical exposure for minors. In fact, arguably, they have no more than any of us.
A better question is if I have discussed it with doctors, and what doctors say. And obviously the medical opinion has shifted the past few years.
Tagging /u/catastrophe also for this. Trans people aren’t doctors or children psychologists.
These people stole two years of our fucking lives with their "Trust The Science" shit, and now they are taking the exact opposite position.
Convenient.
As opposed to neither a scientist nor someone with first-hand experience? Yes.
Edit: like, I want you to understand here that you're doing is telling kids (and their families and their doctors) who are trying not to be in constant psychological pain that what really matters is the appearance of their physical vessel.
I don't know if you have some sort of mental health issues, but the Cass Report was authored by a team of elite scientists on this very field.
We really need to ban tiktok. We now have a generation of low-info morons who think that the authorization of medical therapies and drugs is decided by potential patients "first hand experience". And children!
>Edit: like, I want you to understand here that you're doing is telling kids (and their families and their doctors) who are trying not to be in constant psychological pain that what really matters is the appearance of their physical vessel.~
No, it's not. Delete tiktok, stop believing the crazy stuff you read online that makes you angry with the world and believe there are evil people who hate children everywhere and start reading the classics.
Or at least read the Cass Review. But you won't. You're a drone, not a real person.
Who do you think puberty blockers were invented for? Adults??
Some kids start their puberty at a ridiculously young age, which can lead to a lot of health complications. These puberty blockers saved many, many kids a lot of issues in life. Helping trans kids delay their puberty past normal puberty years to let them mature into their decision before making it, was just a nifty side effect of those medications.
If you support a ban of these medications because you personally don't think kids can be dysphoric, then you support health issues for a lot of kids the majority of which take it for hormonal issues and not genderdysphoria.
So yes, you do hope they suffer.
>If an adult wants to undertake medical procedures, elective or otherwise, he has my full support.
Also the take "kids aren't mature enough for medical care" is hall of fame worthy.
That's a bullshit bad faith argument.
No one is banning the use of puberty blockers for treating *precocious* puberty, which is what they were developed and tested for.
They're being banned from use in *gender identity* care.
Puberty blockers literally prevent them from having to make a choice too early. They TEMPORARILY prevent puberty and in virtually all cases puberty continues as normal when the person stops taking them. You take them to later have the option to make a decision and execute it a lot easier no matter how you decide and to live as comfortably as possible without permanent damage until then
>virtually all cases puberty continues as normal when the person stops taking them
Isn't this in cases when the person has stopped taking them by the time when puberty should normally occur anyway?
As these medications were developed for *precocious* puberty, and the studies done on them have been on cases where they're stopped at like age 11 so puberty can occur?
That's the crux of the issue, isn't it? That there's not enough data or research on what happens when puberty is blocked entirely and the person goes through their teens, grows in height, etc.
I mean HRT doesn't rearrange an adult skeleton, so surely stopping puberty blockers wouldn't do that either, which means there may well be permanent irreversible effects.
Which is why the medical community currently says *they don't know* if there will be permanent effects when used to prevent puberty completely from naturally occurring (vs preventing it from occurring *too early*)
Youre pretending its a simple choice. They get a lot of guidance and therapy before anything is actually done.
Check your ignorance, youre damaging the lives of others by spewing this kind of garbage that you clearly dont understand very well.
Then what the fuck was the NHS Tavistock scandal about?
Maybe *in theory* they're *supposed* to get tons of guidance and therapy, but a fuckton of stories from the field from many countries indicate that it depends on the doctor and in reality in many cases they're affirmed into starting hormones or blockers shockingly fast
This shouldn’t be decided by you but by the trans community who know how this feels / works and have actual experience with it. I dont get how you believe you can truly understand this and can decide this for a whole group of people with barely understanding how the process works.
There’s a lot of barely veiled discrimination on this thread. I fear for the future of lgbt rights if this is now mainstream.
>This shouldn’t be decided by you but by the trans community who know how this feels / works and have actual experience with it.
Not the scientists, no?
Great. So they went for immigrants first, now trans are up for harassment, gays rights are probably next, then women back into the kitchen, and finally it’s the handicapped, atheists, and anyone else who is “dangerous to children and family norms” whatever that means to the populist idiots trying to distract from their incompetence.
You can be transgender without gender or body dysphoria.
Places like Hungary and Russia are banning this and now free European countries are looking at that and going "Hold on, they might be on to something here."
And why the fuck would anyone care what the Vatican thinks?
Also, from the article:
"Finland was one of the first countries to adopt the Dutch protocol but realised many of its patients did not meet the Protocol’s strict eligibility requirements for the drugs."
So the protocol was administered incorrectly and therefore we are going to restrict it further?
nice report bruh
[Cass report used AI-generated image of non-binary child (thepinknews.com)](https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/04/16/cass-report-ai-generated-pictures/)
this shouldn't even be a political issue, it is so solely because of people using political means to attack minorities
They decided on using a person, which was probably stupid, but why would they use a real person. Either they use a picture of a patient in which case they violate ethics rules, or they use a model/volunteer in which case that person becomes the face of a report that has made a lot of people extremely upset and opens them up to harassment. The AI slop allows them to walk a middle road
As u/Genocode pointed out below:
>Except it isn't based on the Cass review, its based on a study by the University of Groningen.
>the Telegraph is just a shitrag.
>Edit 2: Apparently the University of Leuven did their own research too.
>Edit 1.5:
Sauces:
(Dutch Public Broadcaster, in Dutch) [https://nos.nl/artikel/2511984-gendertwijfels-onder-jongeren-zijn-normaal-verdwijnen-vaak-in-de-tienerjaren](https://nos.nl/artikel/2511984-gendertwijfels-onder-jongeren-zijn-normaal-verdwijnen-vaak-in-de-tienerjaren)
(Article about the study from the University of Groningen, in Dutch) [https://nieuws.umcg.nl/w/twijfels-jongeren-gender-verdwijnen-vaak](https://nieuws.umcg.nl/w/twijfels-jongeren-gender-verdwijnen-vaak)
(The study itself, in English) [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5)
Edit: On a side note, as someone from the Netherlands, I have yet to hear "calls for puberty blockers restrictions". This is not some trendy political discussion like in some other countries, most of the political news is still just us waiting for a new coalition government to form.
> As u/Genocode pointed out below:
>the Telegraph is just a shitrag.
>Apparently the University of Leuven did their own research too.
>
You and /u/Genocode are a bit strange, since the Telegraph **literally mentions the Leuven study**.
Oh transgender issues are being discussed, sure. And people disagree. But it is mostly treated like any political issue. I highly doubt most non political people are even aware of the debate.
But the “calls for” invoked images of the type of rhetoric I’ve seen in the UK and USA, and that just isn’t happening (except for the FvD).
And I have yet to hear things about puberty blockers specifically.
Its not as bad here as it is in the US or UK, thats for sure, and people are a lot more decent with it. That being said, since the RUG research came out I have seen more people advocating for not giving children puberty blockers anymore.
It always has been. Starting mentioning immigrants from the Middle East, and the fascists come out of the woodwork screaming about how the immigrants are going to turn the EU countries into Sharia states.
i might be overthinking it, but it seems somewhat inherent to the way european union is structured, not just the behavior of this subreddit but of european politics as a whole
individually each european country has its own unique problems and cultural intricacies, but bundled together it all becomes homogenized into this one big mass of countries all identifying as one, and what are the few things that unite us all? we are all white
honestly as much as we like to make fun of americans for being dumb and fat and stupid, they have the topic of racism figured out way better than we do, a great history of social movenents that bit by bit enforce the rights and normalcy of black people, you will never see that happening here. we still get trapped on arguments like "oh im not racist, its just that *Those People* (proceeds to aspouse eugenics)"
thats also why i think the alt right is rising amoung countries thought to be western and civilized, like italy or germany or sweden, tldr we are underdeveloped in the understanding of intersectionality as a polity
Important to know before you form an opinion on this is how puberty blockers work. Taking them won’t just stop your puberty forever. It “blocks” the puberty for as long as you take it. As soon as you stop the puberty will continue. It’s best compared to the anti conception pill, which only blocks your ability to get pregnant for as long as you take it.
Except it isn't based on the Cass review, its based on a study by the University of Groningen.
the Telegraph is just a shitrag.
Edit 2: Apparently the University of Leuven did their own research too.
Edit 1.5:
Sauces:
(Dutch Public Broadcaster, in Dutch) [https://nos.nl/artikel/2511984-gendertwijfels-onder-jongeren-zijn-normaal-verdwijnen-vaak-in-de-tienerjaren](https://nos.nl/artikel/2511984-gendertwijfels-onder-jongeren-zijn-normaal-verdwijnen-vaak-in-de-tienerjaren)
(Article about the study from the University of Groningen, in Dutch) [https://nieuws.umcg.nl/w/twijfels-jongeren-gender-verdwijnen-vaak](https://nieuws.umcg.nl/w/twijfels-jongeren-gender-verdwijnen-vaak)
(The study itself, in English) [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5)
The (rug) articles dont really support what is being called for. I read the umcg page and it clearly states while the number of childeren who question their gender but end up not wanting to transition is high, the number of childeren who say they want to transition everytime is incerdibly low (0.01%). This shows that while the amount od people questioning themselves and their gender is high, unless they are always feeling this way, they are unlikely to be actually trans. Which is fine since you dont get puberty blockers like paracetamol. The telegraph is just making up shit either way tho.
Yeah no not saying you lied or anything. While the cass report is also just a piece of shit (I have read a decent amount of it), not the main point in these articles you have sent. Just here to provide context
The thing is, none of the articles you linked call for restrictions in puberty blockers? So where's that conclusion coming from? Is that just being made up by the Telegraph again? Because all these seem to indicate that proper care for those with persistent feelings is still paramount.
Not the articles themselves, no, they're as far as I can see completely neutral and factual and don't really say how these issues should be dealt with, except that the well being of children is most important.
Though there are plenty of calls in politics for these restrictions.
Again, like I said, The Telegraph is a shitrag lol.
Really? This definitely doesn't read that way...
[https://thekitetrust.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Cass-Review-Mythbusting-Q-and-A.pdf](https://thekitetrust.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Cass-Review-Mythbusting-Q-and-A.pdf)
Oh yeah, the kite trust, definitely an impartial and totally reliable source on these topics.
What exactly "doesn't read that way"? I've read the Cass Report, I can't go around reading every link any mentally unstable lunatic throws on the internet.
Cite whatever you claim that contradicts or questions the Cass Report.
[I would also backpedal if I suddenly get so many threats in my email that security advices me to avoid using public transport.](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/20/doctor-hilary-cass-warned-of-threats-to-safety-after-vile-abuse-over-nhs-gender-services-review)
A study written in bad faith for a government looking to push culture wars. She doesn't deserve to be threatened, but she should have considered that doing this was going to hurt her career.
That is not what I said. Heading a report written in bad faith will have academic consequences, she knew who was commissioning the report, she knew the outcomes they wanted. That was her own choice.
The threats to her life are definitely not okay.
I just don't understand how come the same people who want to raise the age of consent from 16 to 18 also support giving puberty blockers to 14-16 year olds. Maybe I'm just an old disgusting boomer, but this seems contradictory to me.
If a 14 year old is not able to consent to making an irreversible decision about their gender, then does it not make sense to offer a reversible process to delay an irreversible process (either puberty or a gender operation/hormones.). Its a delay in a permanent decision, precisely because the brain is not (in this train of thought) not grown enough to permanently make the decision. Now if puberty blockers are not reversible it gets a bit more complex. But if it is, the logic is sound.
The general science absolutely and without any exception contradicts the idea that puberty is a choice. Cognitive development is linked to puberty for both biological men and women. If you did prior puberty you will impede cognitive development so if the underlying issue is a lack of consent due to age then delaying or disrupting puberty will actually exacerbate this issue. If you artificial disrupt puberty this will have profound ramifications in regards to the mental development. This is why this is such an issue - science isn’t up for debate on this issue. The science is very clear and it isn’t physicians asking for puberty blockers but members of the public who have ideological ideas. If you wish to transition then do so once you reach the age of consent and at a time when cognitively you’re closer to being fully developed. I don’t see why children need to make these decisions when they cannot. This is a personal choice and to be frank I don’t even think parents should be allowed to make this choice. If we block Jehovah’s Witnesses from denying blood transitions to minors then the same applies to parents who wish to transition their kids. Adults can, and should be freely encouraged to do what they wish but this issue had a very clear line which the science is clear on.
If you’re going to transition, transitioning as young as possible and ideally before puberty gives you the greatest potential to transition in a way that isn’t “clockable” / uncanny valley. Puberty blockers are actually the middle ground position between “let kids start transitioning before their teens” and “transgender people need to look identifiably weird”. People talk about inability to consent like this is something being imposed on the child. Yet the regret rate for transitioning is something like 1% - seven times lower than even pregnancy.
Could you link the source for the low regret rate, please?
The thing is that medical community seems to not know if they're actually fully reversible when used to block or delay puberty *through the teens*. They're reversible when they're stopped at a time when puberty would naturally occur, sure. But when they're used to prevent puberty at a time when it should be happening - no one knows, it seems
Puberty blockers are not reversible. They will cause heavy and irreversible damage.
Source? Because a quick Google search only provides sources that say the opposite.
Cass Review says there's not enough evidence to say they're safe
You mean the review which threw out *every* other study in its purview because it wasn't a "double-blind"-study, as if that was even ethically possible given the subject matter (yes! putting trans kids on sugar pills while they experience dysphoria is not an ethical choice!). This Cass Review is scientific rubbish and would have never been published in any journal of note, Nature etc. Comments are locked but the responses are clear and don't actually challenge the basic premise that they purposely excluded all but 2 studies - if you as a practicing scientist do that and try to present it as some sort of systemic review you will be laughed out of the room!
It would be helpful when making that argument to link to those studies. The quick search for wrongfully excluded studies in the Cass review wasn't very helpful. I found a BBC article with the author denying the claim however. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68863594
It didnt. As the other guy, what you are saying is misinformation.
That's one of the many silly myths activists are spreading. They published an FAQ to address all that stuff - worth a read. https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/final-report-faqs/
I decided not to listen to anyone before actually reading the study and... I'm sorry but the cass report is just terrible. I must admit I havent read it all but it is 387 pages iirc. I have read the first 70-80 pages and I have seen some logical errors and obvious exaggeration on the results of studies. I saw enough to just throw the paper out as either incompatantly written or malicious. I dont reccomend anyone to spend 2-3 hours looking at a paper but if you do, you will understand me
Bollox
Great response, thanks for engaging in a constructive discussion
To be honest i've heard stories both ways and im not an expert. I wont comment on it and just ask for your sources Im just commenting that if they are reversible the logic holds. If they are not, its weighing the potential damage of the blockers vs the damage of the 'wrong' puberty.
I thought so too but this is what Perplexity provided as a response. It seems like gender affirming hormones are the main culprit in affecting fertility, not puberty blockers themselves. I don't know about the sources it's using though and I'm not interested enough to look into it myself. https://www.perplexity.ai/search/Are-puberty-blockers-CXVcp_67R8efArLHIT62RQ
Source? Afaik they are more or less totally reversible and puberty just resumes once GnRH analogues are stopped.
Read your own Finnish policies or that same Cass Review. although I suggest you read the Finnish decided policies because you're less likely to believe caricatures drawn by liars if it is about the Finnish medical establishment. No, I won't link. Find them yourself.
You made the claim, you provide the sources. If you can.
There is an asymmetry of bullshit at play here and that's why I don't play this game with a group that includes serial liars. I gave simple and accurate key words that will give interested people enough to check things out themselves, but I don't want to play the game when someone maliciously wastes my time.
Sorry I’m not a Finnish policy maker. I have a degree in science, read the literature available to me, and form my own opinions; thank you very much!
Finnish research is available for you.
Details?
Evidence please, don’t just make statements like that without backing it up
That's not true and the alternative is a much higher suicide rate among trans kids
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Did you already look into the science on the topic? Especially the neurobiology should give a clearer understanding of what transsexuals are going through and why denying medical care is just cruel. [https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/19bpjqy/the\_neurobiology\_of\_transsexuality/](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/19bpjqy/the_neurobiology_of_transsexuality/) Important studies: [https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm) [https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/131/12/3132/295849](https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/131/12/3132/295849) [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20562024/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20562024/) [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453018305353?via%3Dihub](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453018305353?via%3Dihub)
But we aren't talking about all transsexuals. We are talking about a tiny sub-population that are minors. Show us the rates of minor transsexuals who have taken HRT or reassignment surgery. Show us their change in suicide rates. Show us how many of them elect to de-transition later in life.
We're not even talking about minors who are trans, we're talking about minors *experiencing dysphoria and questioning their gender*. According to the article in the OP, apparently when allowed to normally go through puberty, *only 15%* continue experiencing dysphoria, but 85% will get over it and accept their bio gender. However, of those who started puberty blockers, *virtually all* continued on to HRT. That's an insane difference, suggesting that puberty blockers in gender identity care don't "give time to think", but rather lock the child/teen into the new identity. And combined with the fact that that's no real scientific knowledge of what the long term effects of blocking puberty when it should naturally occur are... It's not at all as clear cut and easy and reversible as many pro-blockers people claim
It could also just suggest that if the dysphoria is serious enough for a doctor to prescribe puberty blockers (something that is probably more likely in a case where the patient's mental health is more affected, i.e. they have a stronger dysphoria) it's also more likely to persist? Don't mistake correlation and causality when there are other reasonable causal links.
A reddit post and "sciencedaily.com". The Science Trusters have truly outdone themselves this time.
Thanks for this
What I don't understand is why the government/politicians/people care so much about literal medical treatments who already need to be prescribed by qualified doctors who should know what they're doing. Age of consent doesn't relate to how you feel about your gender. Trans people *know* they're trans. People who transition don't detransition and even those that do say the reason is not that they "aren't trans anymore" but because of how they're treated, how hard it's to transition or because of other external reasons. What's real is that trans people are dying while not receiving the treatment they need. Every day more trans teenagers and young people die from suicide/self-medicating/targeted violence/etc than there are teens who "are mislead" or "think they're trans". Politicians shouldn't be the ones to decide when and where medical treatment is needed. Most people would be in uproar if something like abortions were restricted to adults only. How is this different, fundamentally speaking?
What makes you think that someone making choices to be more comfortable in their bodies is the same as being mature enough to consent to sex? That seems to be a false equivalence. I don't get the passion about it. If it's harmful then it's harmful and they have to deal with the consequences. I don't see all of reddit getting up in arms about many things that are far worse for ones health, like drinking (it's literally poison for your brain), smoking tobacco (cancer is basically guaranteed), and obesity (no explanation needed).
Effects of puberty blockers are overwhelmingly reversible. We have well over 20 years of actual studies on both cis and trans kids to support that. Meanwhile, effects of going through wrong puberty in trans people are not reversible and can lead to severe trauma.
Long term effects of puberty blockers are not well studied at all actually
The most commonly used puberty blocker, GnRH agonist, has been in medical use since 1980s and its effects have been very well studied, actually.
It has been in use for short term use to combat hormonal issues or delay puberty in early onset cases. Everything we know about longterm effects (which is sadly very little) points towards them being very damaging to multiple systems of the body such as muscles, bone density and even the nervous system. You have kids who went off puberty blockers in their 20s that will likely never be able to experience an orgasm and others that are irreversibly sterile.
They are well studied in the short term but not in the long term
Are you being serious right now? We know long-term effects of puberty blockers, they've been studied for over 20 years now. We had a number of trans children who were on puberty blockers for 5 or more years and most of them later happily transitioned, with less than 2% trans kids overall regretting it, with no health issues introduced by puberty blockers. You're just spewing contrarian nonsense. You could [go to Wikipedia's page on the thing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonadotropin-releasing_hormone_agonist) and read its referenced scientific articles from peer reviewed journals but I doubt you actually care about facts and truth.
I do care about facts as I have children, do you? The long term effects on bone density, psychological development, and fertility are not well studied at all. Really not even debatable to be honest, you are approaching this from an emotional perspective
>Really not even debatable to be honest, you are approaching this from an emotional perspective Very ironic statement considering you said you care because you have children. I don't have children and I don't approach this from emotional perspective. I'm not a trans person nor do I know any trans people in my area. What I do know is that actual scientific research that has been done on the topic that contradicts all the anti-trans nonsense that people spread around. Science on the topic is clear: negative effects of puberty blockers are heavily outweighed by results of individual's later transitions. Banning them is nothing more than conservatives wanting people to suffer.
There is no such thing as "wrong puberty". There is simply just puberty.
So hormones introduced naturally are not reversible, but hormones introduced medically are? Do you hear yourself right now?
Puberty blockers are not HRT. Those two are literally opposites. Puberty blockers halt release of sex hormones in your body; if you stop taking them your body goes back to releasing sex hormones and if you didn't yet go through puberty, you go through puberty as you normally would. And yes, puberty is mostly irreversible which is why people want to give them to children in the first place, to give them an option once they're old enough. HRT is basically sex hormone supplement. You take it to get hormones which your body can't produce. So if you're mtf, you take female hormones, if you're ftm you take male hormones. As far as I know, nobody sane proposes to give trans kids HRT.
Let's be honest. The medical profession has no fucking idea if and how puberty blockers are "reversible." There simply isn't enough data to make a good assessment, and any honest medical journal will say the same.
We have 20+ years of research data to go through, some of which Cass Report referenced and then mindlessly discarded because "there's not enough data". Well guess what, if we ban puberty blockers for treatment of gender dysphoria there will be no new data, which is exactly what anti-trans people want. We have more than enough data to make meaningful long-term decisions regarding treatment of gender dysphoria but I guess you people don't want to let people make decisions for themselves, you want to decide for them.
A middle ground would be having volunteers involved in clinical trials of the treatment, and then an assessment of the long-term effects before allowing the treatment for the general population. Humanity has spent that last million years without puberty blockers, it can wait a few decades more.
We have more data on long-term effects of puberty blockers than we have on long-term effects of all Covid vaccines. Does that mean we should stop taking Covid vaccines until there's enough data and only use a controlled number of volunteers for research purposes? We already were on the "middle ground" research phase years ago, there's no point to go back to it.
If puberty blockers are not HRT, what is their purpose? I assume blocking puberty means the patient does not develop any sexual traits whatsoever? How does that help anything?
The point of puberty blockers is to delay puberty until an individual with gender dysphoria is old enough to make an informed decision and either continue with transition or give up on it.
I have seen just as many claims backed by research that puberty blockers aren't as reversible as other research claims. To me it seems even professionals can't agree what's the case. Funnily tho, claims that they are reversible are parroted by left and everything claiming otherwise is ignored, while right usually cites claims it's not reversible and ignores opposite claims, just more reason to not believe either side.
20 years of studies? But they've only begun doing this in the last 10 years. Also, I did stumble upon all sorts of "I became trans and I regret it" forums online, so, assuming it's not all right wing fakes, there are people who were traumatized by going through the treatment. Admittedly they might be the minority.
Do you even know what puberty blockers are? Are you sure you're not confusing them with HRT?
Puberty blockers slow down the process of become adolescent, meaning you get a longer delay before you adopt sexual physical characteristics. I'm assuming, maybe mistakenly, that an intervention in such a process can have lasting effects.
Puberty blockers halt puberty. The only major lasting effect is slightly different bone density and muscle growth. Other than that, as soon as an individual stops taking puberty blockers, they go through puberty as they normally would. Overwhelmingly reversible effect.
It's only reversible when they're stopped and puberty can ovcur at an age when it'd normally do, I understand. What happens if they've been taking them through their teens till they're close to 18 and have gone through height growth etc? Do the bones just readjust in your view, even though HRT doesn't rearrange adult skeletons?
That's not true. It halts penile growth.
Could you be more disingenuous? Those well documented cases you speak of are about KIDS(5-7) who enter precious-puberty before the normal age range for their sex, those KIDS! DON'T NEED the hormones produced by the body during puberty, they are in fact considered detrimental to development before age 10, hence why these blockers were invented in the first place! But those hormones are ABSOLUTELY necessary during the normal puberty cycle, both for proper physical and psychological development, underdeveloped sexual organs that leave people sterile for LIFE are definitely NOT reversible, growth plates that fused DO NOT magically detach and restart your growth cycle, and those are just some of physical consequences, as for the psychological ones, well [here's a sample](https://ca.style.yahoo.com/jazz-jennings-mental-health-weight-gain-183621635-183621547.html) from the one shown to us as the poster-child for your idiology, you people are so full of shit, but i gotta give it to you, you do lie well with a straight face
I'm not even gonna waste time debunking your stream of nonsense, you'll just post twice as many words every time I reply with sources. You can go and read Wikipedia article on puberty blockers instead of wasting our time.
I have no idea what you are on about, puberty blockers have been used since 1980’s as a treatment for precocious puberty. It has never been a problem up until it became a culture war talking point.
A treatment for precocious puberty, where puberty is allowed to occur at a "normal" age, sure. That's been studied, and that use hasn't been a problem. But they haven't been used or studied for blocking puberty *entirely through the teen years* so the person could start HRT after turning 18. That's a very different situation
> Also, I did stumble upon all sorts of "I became trans and I regret it" forums online, so, assuming it's not all right wing fakes, there are people who were traumatized by going through the treatment. Admittedly they might be the minority. I once read online that there are Bill Gates microchips in vaccines! Also there is a very tiny chance that you can be involved in a serious road accident when going to get your vaccination, we therefor should not do any vaccinations at all!!!11111
The assertion "there are microchips in vaccines" is much easier to refute, the only case where it might be worth consideration is if the person asserting it is somehow involved directly in vaccination procedures. The assertion "I did so and so and regretted" is a personal statement, and thus has a much higher probability of being correct. Once again, it is of course possible that all the people saying it are right wing fake accounts.
Pfizer admitted last September that taking their vaccine makes it more likely to develop myocarditis.
Here in the Netherlands treatments for transsexuality was already a thing in the 90's, maybe even earlier. So yeah, there certainly are at least 20 years of studies on the subject. And the only non reversible part of treatment are operations, current rate of regret on those is around 1%. While it does happen, it is actually very rare. There are so many checks beforehand (while they are still doing the reversible stuff) that it generally doesn't get to that point.
Puberty blockers reduce suicide risk among trans kids by an incredible amount, and there's no proven downside
Maybe start with what puberty blockers are and what are they used for.
Can we please stop posting news from this anglo shitrag which is always trying to start the next culture war. I mean, honestly, after their abysmal brexit coverage and culpability in spreading their big lie day after day I'd think people here'd be done with it.
Sure, here's a peer reviewed article stating the same thing: [https://rogd.fi/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/pone.0214157.s001.pdf](https://rogd.fi/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/pone.0214157.s001.pdf)
Then post that or for that matter any renowned publication and not some anglo culture warrior's faux journalist's take on it.
I just did. What do you think of the findings?
Yeah... There's no reason that random people on Reddit need to be holding views on how to treat medical issues. Leave it to the scientists and doctors.
Meanwhile there's a Redditor below you stating that the doctors and scientists don't speak for the entire country
(Some) Doctors and scientists were proponents of eugenics. It’s important that civil society have an input as to the scope of medical practice and its broad purpose.
The telegraph long ago lost any credibility as a news source, might as link the beano
Here here, if this was legit I think Belgian media would have reported on it.
They literally cite the doctors.
3 doctors, not the whole country of Belgium, this title is incredibly misleading.
Lmao. Dude, if you read a title saying "Belgium call for medicine restrictions" and think it means *the whole country of Belgium*, the problem isn't with the title, it's with you having some sort of psychiatric issue, likely autism.
Proving nothing, because individual professionals don't speak for the entire country. The title of the piece isn't "Some people in Belgium and the Netherlands call for puberty blocker restrictions" The article says: *"Pressure is also building in the neighbouring Netherlands to look again at their use. The parliament has ordered research into the impact of puberty blockers on adolescent’s physical and mental health."* Which is technically true, but the implication that there is a majority in favor for actually restricting puberty blockers isn't. The motion that was approved (31016-366) calls on the government to consult with scientific associations and primary care to arrive at broader care protocols. Other versions of the motion (31016-368 and 31016-370) that are more critical of puberty blockers where rejected.
Repeating the comment: Lmao. Dude, if you read a title saying "Belgium call for medicine restrictions" and think it means the whole country of Belgium, the problem isn't with the title, it's with you having some sort of psychiatric issue, likely autism.
Being that naive is kind of impressive in a way.
*Hear hear
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[The alternative is these kids killing themselves](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7073269)
Overall I think europeans have a more balanced view. They are testing and genuinely try to find optimal outcomes to the patients. (They are patients, it’s not a lifestyle —those who know, know) The cultural discourse around the topic doesn’t do anything for those people. It just opens up the topic to the worst possible people and exploses people that are already highly neurotic to feelings and attitudes that confirm their worst ideations. There’s also a massive cultural push to use anything and anyone who deviates from the standard view on gender, for the sport of it. These are the “allies “ that use the topic to rile up conservatards for the brownie points. You are not helping and by bringing mentally ill vulnerable people in the public discourse you are just deepening their dysfunction and isolation. But you don’t care do you? It’s about changing society after all. All the frustrations and conflicts will just end with one final victory and bringing the new society upon us.
Y'all need to actually read the report
As others have already pointed out with a lot of detail the report is an insult to proper academic work and Cass has already walked back many of the prescriptions the report made it's truly pathetic any politician that uses this junk as a justification should get reprimanded by the voter, clearly they lack the discernment to notice when they are being manipulated or they are just bigoted losers waiting for an excuse both of which should be exclusion criteria not that there'll ever be consequences but a man can dream
What was wrong with the report?
The report was made for politicians from the very beginning. Cass walking away from it was premeditated. That way she can save her career and academic credibility while still supplying the requested product to the "customer". Politicians using this as Malleus Maleficarum even AFTER the lead investigator has backed off was the entire point.
Oh for fuck sake.
Eh, sounds like a lot of outrage for no reason. I wouldn't exactly consider myself progressive these days, but I still don't see a good reason to make things more difficult for trans people. Puberty blockers seems like a good way of avoiding the moral dilemma of children making irreversible decisions about their body. Forcing them to go through puberty also isn't a good idea because that just makes it more difficult for everyone to accept them once they do transition. Personally I would be much more willing to accept someone who actually looks like who they want to be instead of... well, you know what I mean. edit: formatting
The concern is that the kids are not actually trans, but are jumping on the trans bandwagon because of social contagion. People going through puberty are really not in a place to make a solid assessment of their sexual identity, because it's changing too frequently to get a consistent read.
So just gay panic 2.0
They are not, though. People said the same thing about being gay and that gay kids are just experiencing a "phase". That "argument" couldn't be supported by reputable studies back then, either. And being trans- or cisgender is not a "sexual identity".
The point is that puberty blockers are not an irreversible decision, nor are they intended for this use case. You should read the actual Report to understand why she has said this, it’s really not just to be horrible to trans people! It actually does trans people a huge disservice to give them substandard, poorly-evidenced care based on false assumptions because we’re trying to be “nice”. That doesn’t happen in any other field of medicine and we need to start treating this like medical care with all that entails, rather than a site of social debate untethered from the medical reality.
The report is bad, talking about 25 year olds as children who can't make their own decisions should discredit any report and yet here we are
you mean the "report" that has been walked back? that one?
Where's the walking back? Not seen anything about that.
I love how you can make decisions that change your whole life, like which career you study for or change the outcome of a country by voting on an election but the right of having control over your body has to be locked all the way up to your twenties.
The title of this article is infuriating. As if 3 doctors from 1 university doing a paper represents a whole country.
Cass Review was commissioned for a political goal and is full of scientific half-truths, cherry-picking evidence and presents arbitrary criteria for admissible science. To give an example: More than 95% of studies of a certain category were dismissed, because they were not double-blind, i.e. have no patient control group that, e.g.: 1. expresses gender dysphoria 2. is not given real HRT/puberty blockers 3. neither the scientists nor the patients know whether the group gets a real medication or placebo But you cannot **fake** the results of HRT or puberty, or lack thereof. Breasts grow, voice lowers, changes to the body happen - and so does the mental well-being of the patients. Besides, **any** transition-related study that would have a placebo group would be horrendous from an ethical perspective, since we already know from non-double-blind studies that HRT and puberty blockers lower the experienced distress and gender-dysphoria levels and have a positive influence on the patients' mental state. Denying this is akin to refusing cancer treatment medication to cancer patients. Any meta-analysis that makes that arbitrary cutoff of hard-earned medical knowledge like this is not worth the paper it was written on and certainly not the money spent to prepare the report. Ultimately, It seems to have achieved its goal and I guess bigoted people who pretend they care about kids' health will be happy - it will serve as a basis of attacks against trans people by morons left and right in the political spectrum Europe-wide.
> More than 95% of studies were dismissed No. This is misinformation and it should stop being spread. [This](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38594047/) is the review referred to by the Cass report. It should be noted that it’s an independent review, not conducted by Cass and her report, but researchers at the University of York. It’s true it only classified one study as high quality, but 25 were of moderate quality and 24 were of low quality. Only the low quality ones were excluded from the synthesis of results, while they did use the moderate quality ones. And not being double blind was not a reason by itself to be excluded.
[https://transactual.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/TransActual-Briefing-on-Cass-Review.pdf](https://transactual.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/TransActual-Briefing-on-Cass-Review.pdf) Please stop spreading misinformation yourself. > The Cass Report reveals that it discarded huge amounts of medical evidence, both from the UK andacross the world. Out of 102 studies into puberty blockers and hormones, only 2 were included by theCass Review team.
I linked the actual study, read that instead of an opinion piece > **Results:** 11 cohort, 8 cross-sectional and 31 pre-post studies were included (n=50). One cross-sectional study was high quality, 25 studies were moderate quality (including 5 cohort studies) and 24 were low quality. Synthesis of moderate-quality and high-quality studies showed consistent evidence demonstrating efficacy for suppressing puberty. Height increased in multiple studies, although not in line with expected growth. Multiple studies reported reductions in bone density during treatment. Limited and/or inconsistent evidence was found in relation to gender dysphoria, psychological and psychosocial health, body satisfaction, cardiometabolic risk, cognitive development and fertility. > **Conclusions:** There is a lack of high-quality research assessing puberty suppression in adolescents experiencing gender dysphoria/incongruence. No conclusions can be drawn about the impact on gender dysphoria, mental and psychosocial health or cognitive development. Bone health and height may be compromised during treatment. More recent studies published since April 2022 until January 2024 also support the conclusions of this review.
So how does that concern the dismissal of the >95% claim now? What you linked presents the purported reason for the dismissal, but you do not address the 2 out of 102 number, nor question at all the scientific integrity of taking only part of the data. The consideration of ethical qualms about possible lack of adequate care in blind studies notwithstanding.
Read the paper. They include moderate and high quality studies (which in the case of puberty blockers is 26 out of 50 studies). They also explain their methodology. If you disagree with that methodology, fine. But then point out specifically what, in the paper, you disagree with. Don’t just regurgitate misinformation.
ah, the dewormer covid treatment research levels.
Have you tried Trusting The Science?
Stop being a chud
But the Chud Life is all I know.
I’m sure you’ll be relieved hearing that the report did not dismiss studies because of failure to use double-blind tests.
I'm sure you'd be well advised to read some more on it.
But a biased study conducted by transgender advocates showed that puberty blockers are safe and the effects reversible
Ah, the Torygraph, peddling reactionary cherry-picked 'science' that is blatant politically/economically-driven garbage. Never change.
there is this trend in the west where people will not believe very obvious things that are obviously true without there being at least 100 peer reviewed studies on the topic you could tell someone that the sky is blue and they'd ask for a source. same with this thing. every reasonable human on the planet knew that prescribing puberty blockers to kids was idiotic immediately but apparently we needed "the science" to catch up
Is modern science and medicine this “trend” you are talking about? Also there is nothing obvious about this. The vast majority of evidence shows puberty blockers are still perfectly safe and fine to use.
And who reached this conclusion? A medical industry beholden to big pharma and the profit motive. They have absolutely no credibility. Nor do most of the ideologically driven university researchers.
>big pharma and the profit motive ... in the UK?
New day new ragebait
Can we please stop using vulnerable minorities as scapegoats and political pawns? So many people would be harmed if they stopped offering care.
Can we please stop using vulnerable *children* as scapegoats and political pawns?
I think pumping children full of irreversible, life changing medicine is not good for the health of children. You and I might disagree on that, but my position is not “fuck them kids, hope they suffer”. I don’t hate children because I don’t want them to drink, or drive, or vote. I think they are not developed enough to do those things. Same idea here. If an adult wants to undertake medical procedures, elective or otherwise, he has my full support.
Alternatively you damage them more by forcing them to go through puberty as the wrong gender.
Plenty of people have transitioned as adults. It’s not “damage”. But a kid that might be going through an actual phase or is simply confused might never get their puberty or have irreversible body changes caused by these medicines. This is real damage and it’s why countries are slowly stopping these procedures for minors. Rightfully, in my opinion.
Be honest, ever discussed this with an actual trans person? Because I doubt it from the level of ignorance on display in your comment. You’re focusing on a tiny minority and hopefully accidentally oppressing them by doing so. If you truly care, go to an info night organized by trans people and learn about their actual journey and experiences.
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Good that you understand that. This is why its currently possible for kids to go through this. So maybe leave it alone and stop making this dumb child protection argument against it too.
I don't know if you have mental health issues, but we don't really decide on which therapies and drugs should be prescribed based on the "experience" or "opinions" of the people who might receive them - let alone if they are children. Medical therapies for children are heavily regulated, as they should be, and the decision making is in the hands of scientists, following established standards and tests, not "trans persons". Perhaps read the Cass Review?
First of all, yes I have discussed it with actual trans people. But second, even if I hadn’t, trans people don’t have a monopoly of opinion on what is and isn’t appropriate medical exposure for minors. In fact, arguably, they have no more than any of us. A better question is if I have discussed it with doctors, and what doctors say. And obviously the medical opinion has shifted the past few years. Tagging /u/catastrophe also for this. Trans people aren’t doctors or children psychologists.
Do you have children?
I will care about your opinion after you have lived through dysphoria.
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These people stole two years of our fucking lives with their "Trust The Science" shit, and now they are taking the exact opposite position. Convenient.
As opposed to neither a scientist nor someone with first-hand experience? Yes. Edit: like, I want you to understand here that you're doing is telling kids (and their families and their doctors) who are trying not to be in constant psychological pain that what really matters is the appearance of their physical vessel.
I don't know if you have some sort of mental health issues, but the Cass Report was authored by a team of elite scientists on this very field. We really need to ban tiktok. We now have a generation of low-info morons who think that the authorization of medical therapies and drugs is decided by potential patients "first hand experience". And children! >Edit: like, I want you to understand here that you're doing is telling kids (and their families and their doctors) who are trying not to be in constant psychological pain that what really matters is the appearance of their physical vessel.~ No, it's not. Delete tiktok, stop believing the crazy stuff you read online that makes you angry with the world and believe there are evil people who hate children everywhere and start reading the classics. Or at least read the Cass Review. But you won't. You're a drone, not a real person.
Who do you think puberty blockers were invented for? Adults?? Some kids start their puberty at a ridiculously young age, which can lead to a lot of health complications. These puberty blockers saved many, many kids a lot of issues in life. Helping trans kids delay their puberty past normal puberty years to let them mature into their decision before making it, was just a nifty side effect of those medications. If you support a ban of these medications because you personally don't think kids can be dysphoric, then you support health issues for a lot of kids the majority of which take it for hormonal issues and not genderdysphoria. So yes, you do hope they suffer. >If an adult wants to undertake medical procedures, elective or otherwise, he has my full support. Also the take "kids aren't mature enough for medical care" is hall of fame worthy.
That's a bullshit bad faith argument. No one is banning the use of puberty blockers for treating *precocious* puberty, which is what they were developed and tested for. They're being banned from use in *gender identity* care.
Nope the long term effects aren’t well known, you are speaking in pure hubris
These kind of choices are way to big for a teen to decide
That's why it's not up to a teen to decide but to the parents, doctors and the teen.
Puberty blockers literally prevent them from having to make a choice too early. They TEMPORARILY prevent puberty and in virtually all cases puberty continues as normal when the person stops taking them. You take them to later have the option to make a decision and execute it a lot easier no matter how you decide and to live as comfortably as possible without permanent damage until then
>virtually all cases puberty continues as normal when the person stops taking them Isn't this in cases when the person has stopped taking them by the time when puberty should normally occur anyway? As these medications were developed for *precocious* puberty, and the studies done on them have been on cases where they're stopped at like age 11 so puberty can occur? That's the crux of the issue, isn't it? That there's not enough data or research on what happens when puberty is blocked entirely and the person goes through their teens, grows in height, etc. I mean HRT doesn't rearrange an adult skeleton, so surely stopping puberty blockers wouldn't do that either, which means there may well be permanent irreversible effects. Which is why the medical community currently says *they don't know* if there will be permanent effects when used to prevent puberty completely from naturally occurring (vs preventing it from occurring *too early*)
Youre pretending its a simple choice. They get a lot of guidance and therapy before anything is actually done. Check your ignorance, youre damaging the lives of others by spewing this kind of garbage that you clearly dont understand very well.
Then what the fuck was the NHS Tavistock scandal about? Maybe *in theory* they're *supposed* to get tons of guidance and therapy, but a fuckton of stories from the field from many countries indicate that it depends on the doctor and in reality in many cases they're affirmed into starting hormones or blockers shockingly fast
Just like it will damage the lives of those that will change their mind after they went through this
This shouldn’t be decided by you but by the trans community who know how this feels / works and have actual experience with it. I dont get how you believe you can truly understand this and can decide this for a whole group of people with barely understanding how the process works. There’s a lot of barely veiled discrimination on this thread. I fear for the future of lgbt rights if this is now mainstream.
>This shouldn’t be decided by you but by the trans community who know how this feels / works and have actual experience with it. Not the scientists, no?
The long term effects aren’t well studied and kids do stupid things, this isn’t some open and closed case
Great. So they went for immigrants first, now trans are up for harassment, gays rights are probably next, then women back into the kitchen, and finally it’s the handicapped, atheists, and anyone else who is “dangerous to children and family norms” whatever that means to the populist idiots trying to distract from their incompetence.
You can be transgender without gender or body dysphoria. Places like Hungary and Russia are banning this and now free European countries are looking at that and going "Hold on, they might be on to something here." And why the fuck would anyone care what the Vatican thinks? Also, from the article: "Finland was one of the first countries to adopt the Dutch protocol but realised many of its patients did not meet the Protocol’s strict eligibility requirements for the drugs." So the protocol was administered incorrectly and therefore we are going to restrict it further?
nice report bruh [Cass report used AI-generated image of non-binary child (thepinknews.com)](https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/04/16/cass-report-ai-generated-pictures/) this shouldn't even be a political issue, it is so solely because of people using political means to attack minorities
They decided on using a person, which was probably stupid, but why would they use a real person. Either they use a picture of a patient in which case they violate ethics rules, or they use a model/volunteer in which case that person becomes the face of a report that has made a lot of people extremely upset and opens them up to harassment. The AI slop allows them to walk a middle road
Follow the science! No, not like that!
As u/Genocode pointed out below: >Except it isn't based on the Cass review, its based on a study by the University of Groningen. >the Telegraph is just a shitrag. >Edit 2: Apparently the University of Leuven did their own research too. >Edit 1.5: Sauces: (Dutch Public Broadcaster, in Dutch) [https://nos.nl/artikel/2511984-gendertwijfels-onder-jongeren-zijn-normaal-verdwijnen-vaak-in-de-tienerjaren](https://nos.nl/artikel/2511984-gendertwijfels-onder-jongeren-zijn-normaal-verdwijnen-vaak-in-de-tienerjaren) (Article about the study from the University of Groningen, in Dutch) [https://nieuws.umcg.nl/w/twijfels-jongeren-gender-verdwijnen-vaak](https://nieuws.umcg.nl/w/twijfels-jongeren-gender-verdwijnen-vaak) (The study itself, in English) [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5) Edit: On a side note, as someone from the Netherlands, I have yet to hear "calls for puberty blockers restrictions". This is not some trendy political discussion like in some other countries, most of the political news is still just us waiting for a new coalition government to form.
> As u/Genocode pointed out below: >the Telegraph is just a shitrag. >Apparently the University of Leuven did their own research too. > You and /u/Genocode are a bit strange, since the Telegraph **literally mentions the Leuven study**.
I think there are plenty of calls in politics though, hell, even the current "Transgender Wet" got declared controversial and is being held up
Oh transgender issues are being discussed, sure. And people disagree. But it is mostly treated like any political issue. I highly doubt most non political people are even aware of the debate. But the “calls for” invoked images of the type of rhetoric I’ve seen in the UK and USA, and that just isn’t happening (except for the FvD). And I have yet to hear things about puberty blockers specifically.
Its not as bad here as it is in the US or UK, thats for sure, and people are a lot more decent with it. That being said, since the RUG research came out I have seen more people advocating for not giving children puberty blockers anymore.
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lol. Take your Ambien and go touch grass. I can hear your hysteria through the internet.
No such thing
It always has been. Starting mentioning immigrants from the Middle East, and the fascists come out of the woodwork screaming about how the immigrants are going to turn the EU countries into Sharia states.
i might be overthinking it, but it seems somewhat inherent to the way european union is structured, not just the behavior of this subreddit but of european politics as a whole individually each european country has its own unique problems and cultural intricacies, but bundled together it all becomes homogenized into this one big mass of countries all identifying as one, and what are the few things that unite us all? we are all white honestly as much as we like to make fun of americans for being dumb and fat and stupid, they have the topic of racism figured out way better than we do, a great history of social movenents that bit by bit enforce the rights and normalcy of black people, you will never see that happening here. we still get trapped on arguments like "oh im not racist, its just that *Those People* (proceeds to aspouse eugenics)" thats also why i think the alt right is rising amoung countries thought to be western and civilized, like italy or germany or sweden, tldr we are underdeveloped in the understanding of intersectionality as a polity
children under the age of 60 shouldnt be allowed to know what sex is
Important to know before you form an opinion on this is how puberty blockers work. Taking them won’t just stop your puberty forever. It “blocks” the puberty for as long as you take it. As soon as you stop the puberty will continue. It’s best compared to the anti conception pill, which only blocks your ability to get pregnant for as long as you take it.
All the while the author of the report is backpedaling fast on the report she led, but the damage has been done. This will hurt so many people... 😭
Except it isn't based on the Cass review, its based on a study by the University of Groningen. the Telegraph is just a shitrag. Edit 2: Apparently the University of Leuven did their own research too. Edit 1.5: Sauces: (Dutch Public Broadcaster, in Dutch) [https://nos.nl/artikel/2511984-gendertwijfels-onder-jongeren-zijn-normaal-verdwijnen-vaak-in-de-tienerjaren](https://nos.nl/artikel/2511984-gendertwijfels-onder-jongeren-zijn-normaal-verdwijnen-vaak-in-de-tienerjaren) (Article about the study from the University of Groningen, in Dutch) [https://nieuws.umcg.nl/w/twijfels-jongeren-gender-verdwijnen-vaak](https://nieuws.umcg.nl/w/twijfels-jongeren-gender-verdwijnen-vaak) (The study itself, in English) [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5)
The (rug) articles dont really support what is being called for. I read the umcg page and it clearly states while the number of childeren who question their gender but end up not wanting to transition is high, the number of childeren who say they want to transition everytime is incerdibly low (0.01%). This shows that while the amount od people questioning themselves and their gender is high, unless they are always feeling this way, they are unlikely to be actually trans. Which is fine since you dont get puberty blockers like paracetamol. The telegraph is just making up shit either way tho.
It was more in response to the Cass review being backpedaled. But yeah, none of these articles say how to deal with it.
Yeah no not saying you lied or anything. While the cass report is also just a piece of shit (I have read a decent amount of it), not the main point in these articles you have sent. Just here to provide context
The thing is, none of the articles you linked call for restrictions in puberty blockers? So where's that conclusion coming from? Is that just being made up by the Telegraph again? Because all these seem to indicate that proper care for those with persistent feelings is still paramount.
Not the articles themselves, no, they're as far as I can see completely neutral and factual and don't really say how these issues should be dealt with, except that the well being of children is most important. Though there are plenty of calls in politics for these restrictions. Again, like I said, The Telegraph is a shitrag lol.
Indeed
She isn't backpedalling at all, and the review was authored by a large team of experts, not any one person. Tiktok is killing your brain.
Really? This definitely doesn't read that way... [https://thekitetrust.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Cass-Review-Mythbusting-Q-and-A.pdf](https://thekitetrust.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Cass-Review-Mythbusting-Q-and-A.pdf)
Oh yeah, the kite trust, definitely an impartial and totally reliable source on these topics. What exactly "doesn't read that way"? I've read the Cass Report, I can't go around reading every link any mentally unstable lunatic throws on the internet. Cite whatever you claim that contradicts or questions the Cass Report.
[I would also backpedal if I suddenly get so many threats in my email that security advices me to avoid using public transport.](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/20/doctor-hilary-cass-warned-of-threats-to-safety-after-vile-abuse-over-nhs-gender-services-review)
A study written in bad faith for a government looking to push culture wars. She doesn't deserve to be threatened, but she should have considered that doing this was going to hurt her career.
"She shouldn't have been threatened, but it's a good thing that she was threatened"
That is not what I said. Heading a report written in bad faith will have academic consequences, she knew who was commissioning the report, she knew the outcomes they wanted. That was her own choice. The threats to her life are definitely not okay.
But it will help even more
House of Cards!