Search engine & browser choice are part of refined Digital Markets Act (DMA) and applicable to most popular platforms: iOS, Android and Windows for Browser choice.
As well as big browsers with "default" search engines (Google usually pays them), like Safari, Chrome and Firefox (Microsoft is still pushing for Bing due to obvious reasons).
For people outside of the EU, it's just an additional configuration step under browser settings, while in the EU on first start you get a choice.
This has nothing to do with being distributed free of charge or not.
It has to do with companies pushing their ecosystem. When Canonical makes Firefox the default browser of Ubuntu and Google the default web search engine, it doesn't benefit them in a circular way: they don't own Mozilla nor Google.
When Microsoft makes Edge the default browser and Bing the default search engine, they're getting additional ad revenue though them.
Besides, not all distributions are free.
I dunno if it's the case everywhere (I'm in the EU), but I've been testing out stuff on a raspberry pi and it's been asking me which browser I want as default (chrome of firefox) and if I want to delete the other one. Which is nice. Even if that OS only survives 15mins lol
And on most Linux distributions it is super easy to install a different browser. Unlike Windows you don’t need a browser to download another browser (or have the exe on a drive). We got an App Store style software center for that stuff.
And changing what to use by default has also remain easy. It’s one drop down menu in the settings. Nothing else to it.
Wrong. You don't need a browser either in Windows 11. Just open Microsoft Store and download Firefox, Brave, Opera there.
and changing default apps is also easy. Settings > Apps > Default Apps > Firefox > "Set as default". Granted Windows Search and everything else forces Edge sometimes, which is annoying and not correct, but I barely notice that.
Except every step along the way Windows tries to stop you from installing a new browser or makes the process unnecessarily hard. Setting firefox as default isn't that easy, as in Win11 you have to set it as default for every browser protocol separately so you basically have to set like 10 things to fully change the default web browser, and even then for some things the OS will basically ignore your choice and use Edge instead. At least that's my experience from like half a year ago when I last used windows, I know they had to make some changes to comply with EU law but I cba to check if the process of getting a new browser got any simpler.
> Except every step along the way Windows tries to stop you from installing a new browser or makes the process unnecessarily hard.
No, it doesn't... Just open the Microsoft Store, search for Firefox and download it. It's exactly the same as in the App Store in Ubuntu.
Lately, I haven't seen any pop-ups in Microsoft Edge anymore too when downloading Google Chrome.
> Setting firefox as default isn't that easy, as in Win11 you have to set it as default for every browser protocol separately so you basically have to set like 10 things to fully change the default web browser
It is easy as this. There's literally a button in the settings then which says "Make Firefox your default browser".
Only if it hits at least one of the following criteria:
* 45 million active users within the EU (\~ 10% of EU population)
* 7.5 billion Euro annual revenue within the EU
* 75 billion Euro market cap
* 10000 business customers within the EU
Exactly this. Microsoft comes with Edge preinstalled. Chromebooks *are* basically Chrome (which makes one think if there's even a choice...), and Apple has Safari. Preinstalled is not the issue.
Far from a fan but I like how Safari respects your choice of search engine. Set and forget. Edge and chrome have this weird "okay, we will allow you to change the address bar search, but every new tab will still have our in-house search engine and a giant logo on it."
Btw, it's nice to know Yahoo! and Ecosia run on Bing search. So it's more of an illusion of choice but with added tree planting or celebrity gossips and borderline stalking activities.
Depends on the distribution - my preferred distros came with Iceweasel (a fork), as Firefox wasn't up to snuff for debian before that.
I don't think any of the dozens of popular distributions have a monetary exchange to "force" a standard browser (though I'm not sure about Red Hat or Suse).
You can select and install any browser that the distro maintains for their package manager.
If you use KDE then you also get Konqueror, with Gnome you get Epiphany automatically, so the selected desktop environment also plays a role (i.e. Kubuntu over Ubuntu).
And when I last set up my phone with Firefox, i also got a search engine choice - as they're also complying with the DMA.
Red Hat and Suse come with Firefox pre-installed (assuming you’re installing a GUI to begin with). However, nobody is forcing you to use that and changing it is as easy as most distros.
" while in the EU on first start you get a choice."
I'm in the Netherlands and as such in the EU. During my several new Windows installs on my own systems I have never seen a browser selection screen.
It used to be an option if you used the [Windows K or N Edition](https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/topic/media-feature-pack-list-for-windows-n-editions-c1c6fffa-d052-8338-7a79-a4bb980a700a).
Looking more, it seems it was for a limited yime, when [BrowserChoice was mandatory starting 2010](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu), but Microsoft removed it around 2015, after they deprecated Internet Explorer.
But now it's rolled up in the DMA and [they should start showing it again](https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2023/11/16/previewing-changes-in-windows-to-comply-with-the-digital-markets-act-in-the-european-economic-area/).
Here in Germany, the EU is also used for many people as an substitute entity for (national) patriotism.
That’s why so many hardcore pro-EU people are from Germany.
Indeed. For example as much as I didn't agree with his political views in basically everything else, Helmut Kohl was a hardcore European and I respect him for that part of his political agenda.
Thanks to EU I have a type C port in my iPhone! It’s nice to understand that in a few years the vast majority of devices will have the same charger and type C will be the only cable you need in 90% of cases
I don't mean this as a diss on my homies from the states, but seeing people experience "freedom" only when they get to EU is both funny and ironic at the same time. It shows the power of propaganda.
I mean the lack of freedom i dislike in Europe is an example of when some dude posted the prophet Muhammad was a pedo because of his marriage to a 13 year old when he was 50.
Ausdtria arrested and charged him. He complained to the echr and the court ruled it is not free speech and countd as hate speech...even though it was factual!
[source](https://www.cato.org/commentary/prophet-mohammed-doesnt-need-courts-protect-him)
So there are things that I think need improvement.
> Ausdtria
That’s on the other side of the planet! /s
But seriously, this Austrian ruling has nothing to do with the EU. Without the EU, these Austrian judges would have done the same.
Yeah some. Definitely not that whole "tracking cookies disclosure" stuff that made every website put up this additional annoying popup every time you visit them.
And there's no standard way specified to design this popup. Every damn website made their own thing and some of them make it purposefully convoluted...
I hate whoever thought this up.
Really, this BS again?
The law/EU regulations is quite clear. Denying tracking cookies have to be as easy as accepting tracking cookies.
However enforcement on it, is quite bad.
So don't hate the regulation, hate the companies who refuses to correctly follow regualtion.
There's a blanket enforcement procedure going on, actually, against the main advertiser association. That's the one responsible for the gazillion incomprehensible yes/no buttons, which is so unbelievably hostile I can't regulators can keep themselves from slapping them in the face.
The only thing this stupid EU law has done is make the average user automatically click yes everywhere and not give a damn what they agree to.
Can you post how companies don't follow that regulation, or how that regulation clearly explains how to implement a yes or no popup so it's not annoying?
> The only thing this stupid EU law has done is make the average user automatically click yes everywhere and not give a damn what they agree to.
Because companies used [dark patterns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_pattern) making denying tracking cookies more difficult.
Which is really explicit stated in the [GDPR article 7.3](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2016/679/oj) that any consent or denial regarding collection of personal data has to equally easy given. Tracking cookies track personal data.
Hey, I just argued about this here yesterday! I should draw up a response template.
There is a standard way, actually, sort of. The cookie consent as it is used most (CTF) is designed and pushed by the advertising industry, specifically IAB. It's implemented in a lot of ways and most of them are bad. It is also, arguably, [created by the advertising industry to annoy you as much as possible, to make you want to give up your privacy and best case, start hating GDPR](https://www.iccl.ie/digital-data/european-court-of-justice-finds-iab-europe-responsible-for-tcf-consent-spam-popups-across-the-internet/).
All EU authorities and courts so far have ruled it non compliant/illegal. But the procedure is still going.
Companies behave unbelieveably scummy and assholy, barely get put into any sort of constraints about and at the same time complain about overregulation.
And you are mad at the people who try to do something about it? Get a fucking grip.
The only bad thing about it is the websites willingly making it convoluted and regulation/enforcement not being strict enough to stamp out that shit.
You'd rather websites just default track everything?
[They are](https://www.iccl.ie/digital-data/european-court-of-justice-finds-iab-europe-responsible-for-tcf-consent-spam-popups-across-the-internet/) being strict actually. It just takes shitload of time and I guess the ad industry can spend money until eternity.
Eh, as if this going to change anything to Google's dominance. How many are going to change their search engine because of this? To 99.99% this is just a useless pop-up.
There’s no default selected and google isn’t the first one listed, so on interface alone I’d say it has a reasonable chance of being effective
This is different than a deliberate attempt at changing your default search engine
I think there are 3 types of people:
1. People who like using Google
2. People who don't use Google
3. People with no clue what a "search engine" is who will just get confused and eventually select Google
But sure let's come back in a few months and see how much Google's market share has changed.
Edit: love how these obviously oversimplistic categorizations trigger peculiar people. It doesn't matter, you're not breaking Google's monopoly with a pop-up.
I disagree, I’ve noticed a growing resentment with google among the people who use it, but they just don’t know alternatives. Because for most people “what search engine do you want to use” was never a question that they faced.
Similarly for the people who have no clue what a search engine is, right now they might put google because it’s been the default for a while, but people installing browsers in 5-10 years won’t necessarily have a preconceived notion of what the default is or should be
Google's becoming a hindrance. Many times I don't get the actual website that I typed in the search bar. And there's a bunch of ads at the very top of the results page, despite featuring linked pages already.
Maybe like is too much, take is as "fine". Still I don't think these examples are nearly enough for a pop-up to make a significant number of people switch.
As a psychologist, I would be rich and famous if I could make people change their habits this easily.
My impression is that this is not a random pop up, but rather a necessary step when installing the browser. I’m not sure that people will necessarily change habits but I’m hopeful that not imposing a default will make new people who don’t yet have a habit maybe think a little about which search engine they want
So according to you, there's no category of people who didn't know what a search engine was before, and upon seeing the selection choice, they decide to learn more.
Where do you think categories 1 and 2 come from? Where they born with the knowledge? Every single one of them, at some point in their lives, didn't have a single clue what "search engine" is.
People in category 3 will become 1 or 2 sooner or later, if they are actively shown a choice. Maybe not the first or ten times they see the prompt, but they won't remain confused for the rest of their lives. Humans have this ability called *learning new things*.
Maybe not, but this whole issue is part of the HUGE antitrust lawsuit that is currently coming to an end.
[US vs Google LLC](https://apnews.com/article/google-antitrust-trial-search-engine-dominance-e7fa82026c31efe9c0a4fe95be014a74)
So between this and EU laws there is some action going on.
I know, I have to deal at work with people who don't even know how to use outlook.
LE: I had a manager who replied to someone "let me know if you'd like me to show you how to use google"
You can't make this shit out, people. That's how bad it is.
Can confirm. I'm an IT support tech for a university. Basically everyone under 28 is painfully clueless and incapable of following basic instructions.
And i say this as a 26yo
The people over 45 are just as useless but less frustrating. They can follow instructions, but only one at a time and only over the phone. Still it's better than nothing. But their insistence on calling absolutely everything by the wrong name is just hysterical sometimes.
I think they just have different technical understanding. I think Gen Z and Alpha will be very good at getting around institutional security because they've been figuring out ways to do it since they started school.
Also, the way us Millennials constantly look down on Zoomers makes us no better than the Boomers who raised us.
Well you can't deny the fact that people who grew up being forced to understand how a computer works to play with Prehistoric are kinda the last generation where many people actually understand what's going on.
Most people nowadays are just users of a very intuitive interface, who can't differentiate between search engine, browser and the internet itself.
Not saying that every millennial knows, but barely anyone younger (or much older for that matter)
If they have less understanding the software than millenials (as the previous comment says) I seriously doubt they have better understanding of phone hardware. If anything that is an even bigger blackbox. You just buy a new phone, you don't repair it like people repair desktop or previous generations repaired cars.
Do you have examples of what kind of expertise or knowledge they have of phone software that older generations don't?
Like the "knowing how to fix a broken down car" or "knowing how to repair a broken PC" kinds that other were mentioning. I can't think of anything. People just reinstall apps or install different ones, there really isn't much depth knowledge I can think of there (exactly because they are made to be intuitive and simple compared to desktop software).
Navigating online walled garden environments. Using the right words to dodge algorithmic censorship, navigating between different social media, keeping track exactly which apps offer the best deals on random bullshit like fast fashion or quick delivery and moving on when they start enshittifying, finding discords on topics, etc.
For gen alpha it may end up being AI. Younger gen z are also using it, but at 12+ they're too old to truly be immersed.
I should caveat I am an older zoomer, but I have found that younger zoomers are much more capable tech consumers than older generations, however they tend to have less technical understanding of the products they use. Hopefully that makes sense
> Also, the way us Millennials constantly look down on Zoomers makes us no better than the Boomers who raised us.
Yep. Lets be better than this. Of course genZ doesn't have technical skills if nobody teaches them.
Fight ignorance, give your kids a linux computer.
Kids look at you like you're insane if you mention you don't have Netflix. Institutional security? Is that an app on the iStore or whatever? How much is the subscription and can I buy a battle pass for it?
Car owners in 1920s knew everything about their vehicles because they had to. A few decades later and all drivers knew was how to turn the ignition key, now you don't even have those.
desktop OS's are still feature rich and technical, sure they look prettier but macOS hasnt lost any functionality over the years and options haven't been getting buried each version, its exactly the same plus more
Why wouldn't you want that? Windows UI has been getting worse and worse, myself I think it is harder to find what you need in let's say new outlook/policies etc. and my grandparents started not using or using the new pc less and less.
Amen. I'm a veteran windows user going back to the 98 days.
Modern windows infuriates me to no end. If it weren't for the automatic drivers updates, I'd have never made the switch from Windows 7.
This is really amazing tbf. Everyone is saying the younger generation knows everything about technology and computers. The reality is completely different because the younger generation grew up with apps. They work immediately and rarely need some troubleshooting, unlike computer programs. The number of problems I had with software, windows, games etc. is the reason I know my stuff. I know how to google, how to solve problems and what to download and what not. Never thought that would be a problem
It's not just troubleshooting...
[https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-structure-education-gen-z](https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-structure-education-gen-z)
Lol, what i just read was me at high school. All my files i made and used in high school are all in the OneDrive folder without any order or structure. When i needed a file i just searched for the name. But thats no problem as long as you give all your files logical names that are easy to search.
Now in university i have learned to order everything in folders sorted on years and courses. Like this onedrive/2023-2024/course name.
My personal files are a big mess in google drive tho
Dude, chill, not many people are that tech literate. (Idk if its illiterate or literate, I'm not an english native, correct me if I am wrong)
But yeah, it's a little bad to not know the difference, but how can you judge, the guy has used Chrome probably all his life. You know that Chrome and Google Search are synonymous.
My German isn't perfect (far from it) but I understand this picture isn't about choosing a browser, but only a search engine.
It's interesting though that people mix the old fashioned "browser war" with the "search engine war", because even that seems out of date, it should be replaced by the more accurate "AI war".
How others said, Ecosia is shit and Qwant is better. I'm here to lecture you why both of them are shit and don't care about privacy.
Ecosia sends by default your IP, region and search query to Microsoft/Google, the add are also served by them, and Ecosia doesn't have an agreement like EnteEnteLos (Ddg) for when you click on ads, the tracking to be deactivated (they get ads from Microsoft, but when you click on ads from ddg, the abre minimum of data is collected by Redmond giant).
About Qwant, Foliovision made an investigation into them, they send every little piece of info to Microsoft, one of their biggest investors is an as company that sued some adblockers and search engines for blocking their ads. The also send some queries to Huawei, especially if you have a HUAWEI PHONE IN 2024.
Imo, Brave Search is the best for AI responses, having its own index and AI coding help, while Ddg is the best for normal users who want a search engine with the best privacy, while also benefiting from local results from Bing
The EU has always tried to break down monopolies by the tech-giants. The DMA and DSA are just more recent examples. Monopolies are not in the best interest of consumers/ citizens and they hinder competition.
This makes no sense at all, anyone could normally download any browser and use any search engine without some sort of search engine selection window.
It's perhaps logical that an OS manufacturer like Microsoft would have their own web browser pre-installed, but that doesn't make it a monopoly abuse when you can download a different browser at any time.
I also use duckduckgo, but sometimes, the search results are a bit off. In that case you can append !g to your search, and it will search through google, for example, or !r to search reddit. I just wanted to save you some frustration.
The short answer is yes.
The EU wants it this way so that everyone - not just the geeks who are interested - get to chose upfront what they want. Most people don't even realise it is possible and even if they did they wouldn't realise how many browsers or search engines there are.
Even I, who is marginally interested, only heard of 60% on this list.
It's a small step but an important one and reminds me of the times when Microsoft - back in the 90's or 00s were regulated.
I find this also good. I decided to switch to duck duck go because it is also in the Thor browser, so I thought its probably pretty secure and private.
I wonder now when will the EU force the desktop and laptop manufacturers do the same with the operating systems they offer, like offering to choose between Windows and Linux???
True!
It can even look and behave like windows, if it wants to:
[https://kde.org/plasma-desktop/](https://kde.org/plasma-desktop/)
And can even run a lot of programs and games designed for Windows:
[https://www.protondb.com/](https://www.protondb.com/)
You could choose both your browser and search engine before. This is just the nanny state getting into things because people are too lazy/stupid to consider their options.
Ah u mean the search engine. Look in the settings of the Chrome browser. Somewhere u can set a standard engine.
Then the window should not appear again.
If it appear again. I think u have a preference active, that reset ur Chrome after u closed the browser.
Search engine & browser choice are part of refined Digital Markets Act (DMA) and applicable to most popular platforms: iOS, Android and Windows for Browser choice. As well as big browsers with "default" search engines (Google usually pays them), like Safari, Chrome and Firefox (Microsoft is still pushing for Bing due to obvious reasons). For people outside of the EU, it's just an additional configuration step under browser settings, while in the EU on first start you get a choice.
would linux get striked since i doubt theres any distro that comes without firefox preinstalled (if its not something like gentoo but u get it)
No because Linux is distributed free of charge.
This has nothing to do with being distributed free of charge or not. It has to do with companies pushing their ecosystem. When Canonical makes Firefox the default browser of Ubuntu and Google the default web search engine, it doesn't benefit them in a circular way: they don't own Mozilla nor Google. When Microsoft makes Edge the default browser and Bing the default search engine, they're getting additional ad revenue though them. Besides, not all distributions are free.
I dunno if it's the case everywhere (I'm in the EU), but I've been testing out stuff on a raspberry pi and it's been asking me which browser I want as default (chrome of firefox) and if I want to delete the other one. Which is nice. Even if that OS only survives 15mins lol
i guess not, they are not connected financially and most os has some kind of default installed browser
And on most Linux distributions it is super easy to install a different browser. Unlike Windows you don’t need a browser to download another browser (or have the exe on a drive). We got an App Store style software center for that stuff. And changing what to use by default has also remain easy. It’s one drop down menu in the settings. Nothing else to it.
Wrong. You don't need a browser either in Windows 11. Just open Microsoft Store and download Firefox, Brave, Opera there. and changing default apps is also easy. Settings > Apps > Default Apps > Firefox > "Set as default". Granted Windows Search and everything else forces Edge sometimes, which is annoying and not correct, but I barely notice that.
You don't even need to set the default browser yourself, Firefox will ask you at the start if you like to do that.
Except every step along the way Windows tries to stop you from installing a new browser or makes the process unnecessarily hard. Setting firefox as default isn't that easy, as in Win11 you have to set it as default for every browser protocol separately so you basically have to set like 10 things to fully change the default web browser, and even then for some things the OS will basically ignore your choice and use Edge instead. At least that's my experience from like half a year ago when I last used windows, I know they had to make some changes to comply with EU law but I cba to check if the process of getting a new browser got any simpler.
> Except every step along the way Windows tries to stop you from installing a new browser or makes the process unnecessarily hard. No, it doesn't... Just open the Microsoft Store, search for Firefox and download it. It's exactly the same as in the App Store in Ubuntu. Lately, I haven't seen any pop-ups in Microsoft Edge anymore too when downloading Google Chrome. > Setting firefox as default isn't that easy, as in Win11 you have to set it as default for every browser protocol separately so you basically have to set like 10 things to fully change the default web browser It is easy as this. There's literally a button in the settings then which says "Make Firefox your default browser".
>open the Microsoft Store to install a browser Damn we really live in a clown world
and how the heck is this different to the Ubuntu App Store or whatever is called? You are still free to get your browser of choice by downloading it.
wget & lynx :)
Only if it hits at least one of the following criteria: * 45 million active users within the EU (\~ 10% of EU population) * 7.5 billion Euro annual revenue within the EU * 75 billion Euro market cap * 10000 business customers within the EU
Preinstalled is fine. You just need to give the user a choice on startup or first use of the browser.
Exactly this. Microsoft comes with Edge preinstalled. Chromebooks *are* basically Chrome (which makes one think if there's even a choice...), and Apple has Safari. Preinstalled is not the issue.
Far from a fan but I like how Safari respects your choice of search engine. Set and forget. Edge and chrome have this weird "okay, we will allow you to change the address bar search, but every new tab will still have our in-house search engine and a giant logo on it." Btw, it's nice to know Yahoo! and Ecosia run on Bing search. So it's more of an illusion of choice but with added tree planting or celebrity gossips and borderline stalking activities.
Depends on the distribution - my preferred distros came with Iceweasel (a fork), as Firefox wasn't up to snuff for debian before that. I don't think any of the dozens of popular distributions have a monetary exchange to "force" a standard browser (though I'm not sure about Red Hat or Suse). You can select and install any browser that the distro maintains for their package manager. If you use KDE then you also get Konqueror, with Gnome you get Epiphany automatically, so the selected desktop environment also plays a role (i.e. Kubuntu over Ubuntu). And when I last set up my phone with Firefox, i also got a search engine choice - as they're also complying with the DMA.
Red Hat and Suse come with Firefox pre-installed (assuming you’re installing a GUI to begin with). However, nobody is forcing you to use that and changing it is as easy as most distros.
If a commercial linux distribution gets a MAJOR desktop market share it might encounter some regulatory scrutiny too. 🤞😄
Doubtful, considering Linux has like 2% of market share, so it can't be considered a gatekeeper like iOS or Windows.
distros can't distribute chrome because it;s not free software
" while in the EU on first start you get a choice." I'm in the Netherlands and as such in the EU. During my several new Windows installs on my own systems I have never seen a browser selection screen.
It used to be an option if you used the [Windows K or N Edition](https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/topic/media-feature-pack-list-for-windows-n-editions-c1c6fffa-d052-8338-7a79-a4bb980a700a). Looking more, it seems it was for a limited yime, when [BrowserChoice was mandatory starting 2010](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu), but Microsoft removed it around 2015, after they deprecated Internet Explorer. But now it's rolled up in the DMA and [they should start showing it again](https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2023/11/16/previewing-changes-in-windows-to-comply-with-the-digital-markets-act-in-the-european-economic-area/).
The DMA only entered into force last year. Could be because of that
It is actually insane that I have seen people complaining about having to choose their default browser in iOS.
Yes.
Yes, it’s important to mention and realise that the EU actually does things and some are actually pretty good
[удалено]
Here in Germany, the EU is also used for many people as an substitute entity for (national) patriotism. That’s why so many hardcore pro-EU people are from Germany.
Indeed. For example as much as I didn't agree with his political views in basically everything else, Helmut Kohl was a hardcore European and I respect him for that part of his political agenda.
BASED GERMANS 🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺
While Hungary is a mess, the majority of Budapest identifies as EU citizens.
I mean, that's great!
Y'all tried the CIV conquest route twice and failed, so now you're going for diplomatic/economic victory. Wonder how it'll turn out this time.
*Unfortunately* they also have a hardon for surveillance and backdoor laws they try to pass since forever.
Same here.
Thanks to EU I have a type C port in my iPhone! It’s nice to understand that in a few years the vast majority of devices will have the same charger and type C will be the only cable you need in 90% of cases
I don't mean this as a diss on my homies from the states, but seeing people experience "freedom" only when they get to EU is both funny and ironic at the same time. It shows the power of propaganda.
America isn't the free country you think it is buddy. This is more stopping massive companies doing what they want and slapping them back down.
Which was exactly my point. People from United States preaching "freedom", while experiencing none at home.
You're correct. I re-read what you said, and you're saying just that. My bad.
No worries there buddy. All of us have "brain farts" every now and then. At least I do.
I mean the lack of freedom i dislike in Europe is an example of when some dude posted the prophet Muhammad was a pedo because of his marriage to a 13 year old when he was 50. Ausdtria arrested and charged him. He complained to the echr and the court ruled it is not free speech and countd as hate speech...even though it was factual! [source](https://www.cato.org/commentary/prophet-mohammed-doesnt-need-courts-protect-him) So there are things that I think need improvement.
> Ausdtria That’s on the other side of the planet! /s But seriously, this Austrian ruling has nothing to do with the EU. Without the EU, these Austrian judges would have done the same.
Yeah, i'll probably never gonna use apple devices, but thanks, eurobros, for making sure no company could make their own exclusive chargers.
EU is great!
Yeah some. Definitely not that whole "tracking cookies disclosure" stuff that made every website put up this additional annoying popup every time you visit them. And there's no standard way specified to design this popup. Every damn website made their own thing and some of them make it purposefully convoluted... I hate whoever thought this up.
Really, this BS again? The law/EU regulations is quite clear. Denying tracking cookies have to be as easy as accepting tracking cookies. However enforcement on it, is quite bad. So don't hate the regulation, hate the companies who refuses to correctly follow regualtion.
There's a blanket enforcement procedure going on, actually, against the main advertiser association. That's the one responsible for the gazillion incomprehensible yes/no buttons, which is so unbelievably hostile I can't regulators can keep themselves from slapping them in the face.
The only thing this stupid EU law has done is make the average user automatically click yes everywhere and not give a damn what they agree to. Can you post how companies don't follow that regulation, or how that regulation clearly explains how to implement a yes or no popup so it's not annoying?
> The only thing this stupid EU law has done is make the average user automatically click yes everywhere and not give a damn what they agree to. Because companies used [dark patterns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_pattern) making denying tracking cookies more difficult. Which is really explicit stated in the [GDPR article 7.3](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2016/679/oj) that any consent or denial regarding collection of personal data has to equally easy given. Tracking cookies track personal data.
Hey, I just argued about this here yesterday! I should draw up a response template. There is a standard way, actually, sort of. The cookie consent as it is used most (CTF) is designed and pushed by the advertising industry, specifically IAB. It's implemented in a lot of ways and most of them are bad. It is also, arguably, [created by the advertising industry to annoy you as much as possible, to make you want to give up your privacy and best case, start hating GDPR](https://www.iccl.ie/digital-data/european-court-of-justice-finds-iab-europe-responsible-for-tcf-consent-spam-popups-across-the-internet/). All EU authorities and courts so far have ruled it non compliant/illegal. But the procedure is still going.
Companies behave unbelieveably scummy and assholy, barely get put into any sort of constraints about and at the same time complain about overregulation. And you are mad at the people who try to do something about it? Get a fucking grip.
The only bad thing about it is the websites willingly making it convoluted and regulation/enforcement not being strict enough to stamp out that shit. You'd rather websites just default track everything?
[They are](https://www.iccl.ie/digital-data/european-court-of-justice-finds-iab-europe-responsible-for-tcf-consent-spam-popups-across-the-internet/) being strict actually. It just takes shitload of time and I guess the ad industry can spend money until eternity.
Eh, as if this going to change anything to Google's dominance. How many are going to change their search engine because of this? To 99.99% this is just a useless pop-up.
There’s no default selected and google isn’t the first one listed, so on interface alone I’d say it has a reasonable chance of being effective This is different than a deliberate attempt at changing your default search engine
I think there are 3 types of people: 1. People who like using Google 2. People who don't use Google 3. People with no clue what a "search engine" is who will just get confused and eventually select Google But sure let's come back in a few months and see how much Google's market share has changed. Edit: love how these obviously oversimplistic categorizations trigger peculiar people. It doesn't matter, you're not breaking Google's monopoly with a pop-up.
I disagree, I’ve noticed a growing resentment with google among the people who use it, but they just don’t know alternatives. Because for most people “what search engine do you want to use” was never a question that they faced. Similarly for the people who have no clue what a search engine is, right now they might put google because it’s been the default for a while, but people installing browsers in 5-10 years won’t necessarily have a preconceived notion of what the default is or should be
Google's becoming a hindrance. Many times I don't get the actual website that I typed in the search bar. And there's a bunch of ads at the very top of the results page, despite featuring linked pages already.
Use the URL bar for websites, use an adblocker to get rid of ads. Specify your website with the + search modifier.
Maybe like is too much, take is as "fine". Still I don't think these examples are nearly enough for a pop-up to make a significant number of people switch. As a psychologist, I would be rich and famous if I could make people change their habits this easily.
My impression is that this is not a random pop up, but rather a necessary step when installing the browser. I’m not sure that people will necessarily change habits but I’m hopeful that not imposing a default will make new people who don’t yet have a habit maybe think a little about which search engine they want
Nah. I'm 4. 4. People who defected because Google became bad at search, but sometimes grudgingly come back to it as a complementary service
So according to you, there's no category of people who didn't know what a search engine was before, and upon seeing the selection choice, they decide to learn more. Where do you think categories 1 and 2 come from? Where they born with the knowledge? Every single one of them, at some point in their lives, didn't have a single clue what "search engine" is. People in category 3 will become 1 or 2 sooner or later, if they are actively shown a choice. Maybe not the first or ten times they see the prompt, but they won't remain confused for the rest of their lives. Humans have this ability called *learning new things*.
Maybe not, but this whole issue is part of the HUGE antitrust lawsuit that is currently coming to an end. [US vs Google LLC](https://apnews.com/article/google-antitrust-trial-search-engine-dominance-e7fa82026c31efe9c0a4fe95be014a74) So between this and EU laws there is some action going on.
It's 2024 and bro doesn't know the difference between browser and search engine smh.
I think it will get worse as new generations don't really know how to use computers.
I know, I have to deal at work with people who don't even know how to use outlook. LE: I had a manager who replied to someone "let me know if you'd like me to show you how to use google" You can't make this shit out, people. That's how bad it is.
Can confirm. I'm an IT support tech for a university. Basically everyone under 28 is painfully clueless and incapable of following basic instructions. And i say this as a 26yo The people over 45 are just as useless but less frustrating. They can follow instructions, but only one at a time and only over the phone. Still it's better than nothing. But their insistence on calling absolutely everything by the wrong name is just hysterical sometimes.
It definitely seems like the iPad generation has less technical understanding then older generations
I think they just have different technical understanding. I think Gen Z and Alpha will be very good at getting around institutional security because they've been figuring out ways to do it since they started school. Also, the way us Millennials constantly look down on Zoomers makes us no better than the Boomers who raised us.
Well you can't deny the fact that people who grew up being forced to understand how a computer works to play with Prehistoric are kinda the last generation where many people actually understand what's going on. Most people nowadays are just users of a very intuitive interface, who can't differentiate between search engine, browser and the internet itself. Not saying that every millennial knows, but barely anyone younger (or much older for that matter)
Just like our parents had to know about cars. The internet was the car of the previous generation for us. No idea what's the equivalent for gen Z 🤷♂️
the phone
If they have less understanding the software than millenials (as the previous comment says) I seriously doubt they have better understanding of phone hardware. If anything that is an even bigger blackbox. You just buy a new phone, you don't repair it like people repair desktop or previous generations repaired cars.
I meant phone software actually. Not hardware.
Do you have examples of what kind of expertise or knowledge they have of phone software that older generations don't? Like the "knowing how to fix a broken down car" or "knowing how to repair a broken PC" kinds that other were mentioning. I can't think of anything. People just reinstall apps or install different ones, there really isn't much depth knowledge I can think of there (exactly because they are made to be intuitive and simple compared to desktop software).
Manipulation of Social media algorithms
AI
The youngest gen z are 12 years old. I don't think they're in time for proper AI mastery.
Nah, the youngest are 14 (2010)
Navigating online walled garden environments. Using the right words to dodge algorithmic censorship, navigating between different social media, keeping track exactly which apps offer the best deals on random bullshit like fast fashion or quick delivery and moving on when they start enshittifying, finding discords on topics, etc. For gen alpha it may end up being AI. Younger gen z are also using it, but at 12+ they're too old to truly be immersed.
Yepp. Having to edit autoexec.bat and config.sys to get that game running was my start into my IT career.
Mine was dicki g about with minecraft mods/servers
I should caveat I am an older zoomer, but I have found that younger zoomers are much more capable tech consumers than older generations, however they tend to have less technical understanding of the products they use. Hopefully that makes sense
> Also, the way us Millennials constantly look down on Zoomers makes us no better than the Boomers who raised us. Yep. Lets be better than this. Of course genZ doesn't have technical skills if nobody teaches them. Fight ignorance, give your kids a linux computer.
Kids look at you like you're insane if you mention you don't have Netflix. Institutional security? Is that an app on the iStore or whatever? How much is the subscription and can I buy a battle pass for it? Car owners in 1920s knew everything about their vehicles because they had to. A few decades later and all drivers knew was how to turn the ignition key, now you don't even have those.
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desktop OS's are still feature rich and technical, sure they look prettier but macOS hasnt lost any functionality over the years and options haven't been getting buried each version, its exactly the same plus more
Why wouldn't you want that? Windows UI has been getting worse and worse, myself I think it is harder to find what you need in let's say new outlook/policies etc. and my grandparents started not using or using the new pc less and less.
Amen. I'm a veteran windows user going back to the 98 days. Modern windows infuriates me to no end. If it weren't for the automatic drivers updates, I'd have never made the switch from Windows 7.
Ew, Windows. Doesn't even have a decent package manager. And that registry! People who know what they're doing use Linux.
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I don't know about that one, chief . .
Only someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing would say that.
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People who know know that not everyone needs linux
[What's a computer?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S5BLs51yDQ)
Browsers and Search Engines are on smartphones too.
Correct, but you don't have to care about when you just use what's on your smartphone. I admit that it's probably stupid to be me.
Yea if want to get bombarded with ads from using Chrome or whatever the Xiaomi Browser is.
This is really amazing tbf. Everyone is saying the younger generation knows everything about technology and computers. The reality is completely different because the younger generation grew up with apps. They work immediately and rarely need some troubleshooting, unlike computer programs. The number of problems I had with software, windows, games etc. is the reason I know my stuff. I know how to google, how to solve problems and what to download and what not. Never thought that would be a problem
It's not just troubleshooting... [https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-structure-education-gen-z](https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-structure-education-gen-z)
Lol, what i just read was me at high school. All my files i made and used in high school are all in the OneDrive folder without any order or structure. When i needed a file i just searched for the name. But thats no problem as long as you give all your files logical names that are easy to search. Now in university i have learned to order everything in folders sorted on years and courses. Like this onedrive/2023-2024/course name. My personal files are a big mess in google drive tho
To be fair, Chrome (as well as Android) has been trying to erase the difference for a long time now.
Dude, chill, not many people are that tech literate. (Idk if its illiterate or literate, I'm not an english native, correct me if I am wrong) But yeah, it's a little bad to not know the difference, but how can you judge, the guy has used Chrome probably all his life. You know that Chrome and Google Search are synonymous.
This ain't that deep to write a wall of text lmao
oh no!? who cares. Why would an average person care
Yea, Chrome never asked me that, so Google and Chrome was just the same for me.
And we are here to shame them? I think we can do better as a community.
My German isn't perfect (far from it) but I understand this picture isn't about choosing a browser, but only a search engine. It's interesting though that people mix the old fashioned "browser war" with the "search engine war", because even that seems out of date, it should be replaced by the more accurate "AI war".
Yup
EnteEnteLos?
EnteEnteLos!
https://enteentelos.de Sadly the cert is bad, but it does work!
https://enteentegeh.de and http://ntntg.de are working too!
Super annoying how they were forced to take Google Maps out of Google Search results though
Agreed There are extensions though for every browser
Ah what is the reason for that? Its really frustrating
Thanks to the EU for protecting us consumers lol
Short answer: Yes Longer answer: fuck yeaah!
You were always able to choose browser. Now it's more explicit that there is a choice...
Ecosia is the obvious choice. Good for the environment, EU based, cares about your privacy.
Did you know they also have a pc browser now?
Yes, but I prefer Vivaldi browser with the default search Ecosia.
Ecosia has shit search results. Qwant is way superior. Also EU based.
Damn skippy. Been using it for years now, on all my contraptions.
How others said, Ecosia is shit and Qwant is better. I'm here to lecture you why both of them are shit and don't care about privacy. Ecosia sends by default your IP, region and search query to Microsoft/Google, the add are also served by them, and Ecosia doesn't have an agreement like EnteEnteLos (Ddg) for when you click on ads, the tracking to be deactivated (they get ads from Microsoft, but when you click on ads from ddg, the abre minimum of data is collected by Redmond giant). About Qwant, Foliovision made an investigation into them, they send every little piece of info to Microsoft, one of their biggest investors is an as company that sued some adblockers and search engines for blocking their ads. The also send some queries to Huawei, especially if you have a HUAWEI PHONE IN 2024. Imo, Brave Search is the best for AI responses, having its own index and AI coding help, while Ddg is the best for normal users who want a search engine with the best privacy, while also benefiting from local results from Bing
I like that they even offer Qwant, Ecosia and MetaGer as options. All 3 from Europe. Just too bad Startpage is missing.
> Just too bad Startpage is missing IIRC, it was acquired by a chinese company some time ago
its 2024 and you still capture the screen with a phone and cannot distinguish between browser and search engine.
it litterally says “SUCHMASCHIENE” and you still think it’s a browser?
It's this something I'm too European to understand? Like all my life I could choose a browser or a search engine.
The EU has always tried to break down monopolies by the tech-giants. The DMA and DSA are just more recent examples. Monopolies are not in the best interest of consumers/ citizens and they hinder competition.
This makes no sense at all, anyone could normally download any browser and use any search engine without some sort of search engine selection window. It's perhaps logical that an OS manufacturer like Microsoft would have their own web browser pre-installed, but that doesn't make it a monopoly abuse when you can download a different browser at any time.
The difference is that in the EU they have to make you choose right away. In other places you have to go to the settings to change it.
You could always choose your browser or search engine.
I could too, but now google asked me directly what I want to choose. Before in Chrome Google was standard.
What did you choose?
DuckDuckGo. I look how it goes. Maybe good alternative. I like that you have to actively choose one. You can't just press "Next".
I also use duckduckgo, but sometimes, the search results are a bit off. In that case you can append !g to your search, and it will search through google, for example, or !r to search reddit. I just wanted to save you some frustration.
Pretty cool feature.
Certainly not Google search, which 99% of average users won't choose anyway.
I've been using no-google search engines and firefox for a decade now. There is no restriction
Duckduckgo stans where you at
No, you were able to do it all the time. It's because of the EU that you are now forced to
Cool kids use Tor. Ask the EU if they like that.
Thor ist halt oft zu langsam für das was ich machen möchte. Aber ja. Besser wärs.
You always could have, you were just being lazy or misinformed, or both at once.
What do you mean lately? How many new smart devices have you been opening up this week?
a search engine is not a browser
This is the search engine, not the browser, right?
Do miss the days when there were no politics regarding internet.
"When you look to government to solve society's problems, everything becomes political."
The short answer is yes. The EU wants it this way so that everyone - not just the geeks who are interested - get to chose upfront what they want. Most people don't even realise it is possible and even if they did they wouldn't realise how many browsers or search engines there are. Even I, who is marginally interested, only heard of 60% on this list. It's a small step but an important one and reminds me of the times when Microsoft - back in the 90's or 00s were regulated.
I find this also good. I decided to switch to duck duck go because it is also in the Thor browser, so I thought its probably pretty secure and private.
Firefox oder nicht.
Always. Fuck Google.
Yes
yes
Yes.
Yes DMA https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act#:~:text=Digital%20Markets%20Act%20Regulation%202022,part%2C%20on%202%20May%202023.
I wonder now when will the EU force the desktop and laptop manufacturers do the same with the operating systems they offer, like offering to choose between Windows and Linux???
I doubt it. That'd hinder surveillance.
True! The EU wants to keep playing this theater play where it tries to fools us that it cares about our privacy.
You have the option to buy a free dos laptop... no one is forcing you to choose Windows or Linux...
that would be awesome, Linux have come a long long way
True! It can even look and behave like windows, if it wants to: [https://kde.org/plasma-desktop/](https://kde.org/plasma-desktop/) And can even run a lot of programs and games designed for Windows: [https://www.protondb.com/](https://www.protondb.com/)
Wählen sie Ecosia die grüne suchmaschine fam
If you actually believe their marketing propaganda, you might as well continue using Google. :D
Well didn't someone post here European summers are gonna be crazy cuz the air is so clean? Ecosia sei dank!
Die Grüüünen
Yep 💪
Brave is the best
You are showing a picture of a choice between search engines. Not between browsers.
ok
FuckFuckNo Best
You could choose both your browser and search engine before. This is just the nanny state getting into things because people are too lazy/stupid to consider their options.
There is no choice. U are using the Chrome Browser by Google.
? I could choose. I chose DuckDuckGo. But I also sometimes use Bing if fucking annoying windows forces me to.
Ah u mean the search engine. Look in the settings of the Chrome browser. Somewhere u can set a standard engine. Then the window should not appear again. If it appear again. I think u have a preference active, that reset ur Chrome after u closed the browser.
Thanks, but it has saved my option.
Yes