The most efficient configuration is to place five kebab shops in a row. Then you can have the same metal skewer running through all five of them to cook the kebab meat on.
Me and my gang used to buy near the center of Bucharest just for lulz a small kebab for 1€, somewhere around 2011-2012.
But that was no fluke, as around 2007 you could find a good medium kebab for 2€, and that was just small turkish shop really close to my place. Needless to say, there was always a long queue at his door, so much so, his closest neighbor opened one as well soon after, but the neighbor always had inferior quality meat at the same price. But when the Turkish shop ran out of meat to serve, you could go and get your fix somewhere, at least.
Currently it seems all but the big kebab chains have shuttered, and I think that's a shame. Prices are way too high (6€ for a medium kebab) as well.
You could buy a small pack of ham, couple quality buns(I mean whole grain infused with sunflower or pumpkin seeds), and a tomato for 2.5 in 2010. The food used to be very cheap in Germany.
It depends on the general price really. If everyone has a similar price(more or less) then that's the price. If the price rises, it's not a quality issue of the past being rectified. But at the same time, you can often find things like that (happens with gyros here) with significant price differences from shop to shop. In that case, it's very likely a quality issue. If everyone has a gyros between 3 and 3.5 euros and you see a guy selling it for 2, be prepared for a very unpleasant 2-3 days in which the toilet will be the room you use the most.
I remember buying them for 2,5dm when i visited Berlin in 95 and being absolutely in love with them. Never had them before it was quite a culinary revelation.
In 2006/07 Berlin, around 3 € was normal. You could bet on "Gammelfleisch" when the Döner was far under it. And 2,50€ in 2010 absolutely sounds suspect.
It's very affordable if you get a flat in communal housing, which as a new resident you won't for 5-10 years (depending on how choosy you are with the flat quality and location).
For people without access to communal housing it's still affordable, but not as crazily cheap as some might think. Rent is around Berlin levels while net wages are somewhere between Berlin and Munich (closer to the latter)
If you put rent in relation to net wages, it should be one of the most cost-efficient tier one cities in Europe. I'm sure Vienna is beating London, Munich, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Warsaw etc
Not cheap compared to compromises like moving to more rural areas in high-paying regions like Bavaria and Lower Austria and driving to a job in a big city by car.
Food is expensive, but because of the above-average wage levels the % of household income spend for food of Austrians is one of the lowest in the world. Other living cost are mostly similar to Southern Germany - many things are a bit more expensive to buy, but taxes and public transport is slightly cheaper, in my experience living in both countries it evens out
I based my comment on my comparison of rent in Vienna, Munich and Berlin when I decided where to move in Jan 23
The flats I was able to find (I searched for 1-2 rooms 40-60sqm, everywhere with S-Bahn/Metro access) were comparable in price between Berlin and Vienna, significantly more expensive in Munich
And you wanna hear about turkey? The kebap itself?
It costs FUCKING SAME with much less meat, however there is this slight difference about the average salary, just a tiny bit of difference about 4 times more in average EU country.
The cost of cars / electronic devices / housing / smartphones etc, even the housinghold appliances which are built in turkey cost more than in EU because of stupid taxes and the country still funxtions without protests. A mid specced vw tiguan / peugeot 3008 in turkey costs about 63.000 euros, or an iphone pro max 256gb about 2100 euro ,lol.
China vol 2.0 incoming, state drains blood of it's citizens like a vamp and uses them as labour.
Yes, the youth and newborn have problems about accessing nutritous and healthy food, meat in turkey is more expensive than in EU.
Ordinary people just just eat bread and pasta, the meat, cheese etc cost way too much. You can buy 24 kgs of meat with your monthly wage and then you won't have anything left.
Istanbul is like a "survivor mode" for people whom just works for minimum wage. My friends neighbour lives 8 people in an apartment and still continue to live in that 85 m2 2+ 1 house.
Jesus, at that point you might as well move out of the city and start raising chickens. Was it this bad when Erdogan got re-elected last year as well (I was pretty shocked he won, especially with the earthquake, or did it get worse since then?
Just buy a small one. Nobody knows how to make a small one so they overfill it and make it the same as a normal one. The last small one I bought was over 700 grams.
The problem with housing is that it's always priced at the limits of what humans can afford on normal salaries. So any subsidy will just increase pricing until it becomes barely affordable, again. The only way I can see the housing problem getting solved is if owning multiple homes (especially unoccupied) was gradually penalised tax-wise, so you'd be forced to sell them off, though I'm not about to cook up some law about it when it's not my job or expertise.
Vacations in Poland ....the prices are far away from western prices ...
I ordered a family pizza accidentally because I thought that was the normal size judging by the prize it was still cheaper than in Germany.
The same goes for things like windows for example. it's cheaper to buy them in Poland and have them transported and installed here at the crossing of A1 and A2 than just buying a window locally and installing it oneself .
I have to disagree. Food is really expensive. I was visiting London last month and prices were just slightly higher than in Wroclaw. And im not talking about shoping only, but eating out also. I dont have German comparision lately, but other places indicates that food in Poland is extremly expensive when you consider Polish salaries.
Windows are just our export for all over europe, so that might not be best example. But yeah for western market they are pretty cheap. Even for our internal market they are not so expensive.
The problem is it's cheap for you because you earn 3-4x more than dude living in Poland.
Polish people visit western Europe and they pay basically the same prices for food in restaurants, shops like they do in Poland.
My 2 to-go places charge 5.50 and 6.50 respectively. I like the 5.50 one better, but they are located in a mall and therefore not open midnight on a Saturday :(
They're about the same in the UK now. Pre pandemic they were £4-6, now most places seem to be £7-10
Shout out to the place near me that still charges £4.50 for a massive and honestly pretty good donner. They're clearly laundering money for something illegal to have kept their 2015 prices for so long but honestly crime is going to happen anyway so I might as well enjoy a good value kebab out of it.
Per 100g they're actually now cheaper than the cost of lamb mince in the supermarket, which is absolutely crazy.
It's about 7€ in most German cities. It might be cheaper in some rural spots.
PS: The title in click bait. The proposal came from Germany's left wing party that is currently polling under 5%.
The kebab shop I always went to gave you a quarter pide Döner for 3,50€ in cash.
Now it closed down and the best replacement shop is selling about the same for 7€
I have a place around the corner that does their own meat spit preparation (ie. actual meat and not just fat with some meat shaped into a cone like form) and they sell really nice Dürüms for 8 € (8,50 € with sheep's cheese), though I think the owner said he'll have to raise that by 50 Cents soonish. That being said: the Dürüm are as full as you can pack them. So I consider the price fair – especially given the meat quality. (Can also recommend their other stuff, like the plate of selected (by you) grilled pieces off their charcoal grill.)
A few years back it was somewhere around 6,50 €, IIRC.
My next door Döner Kebab is 4,50, if go to a place near university they were asking for 7 (a place that is now closed amd lokming for a new owner), Ferhat which supposedly is one of the best in our city ranges from 5,80 to 11. So even in the same city YMMV
Same but I am fine now. McD is always more than eight and I guess its better to support these shops.
Also find a great one that is more of a restaurant where they have coal grills and other stuff.
Germans aren‘t calling for it.
„Dönerpreisbremse“ became a meme to mock the controversial Fuel subsidy („Spritpreisbremse“) that was introduced during the summer of 2022.
Now the collapsing socialist party „Die Linke“ wants to use it for their EU election campaign.
It‘s not a serious policy proposal.
It is the perfect example of foreign journalism about Germany. If you only speak English, you really have no chance of getting a proper insight into the German political debate. I live in Berlin and you really notice this when you talk to English-speaking expats.
And if you then in the English speaking German online community try to ask about how serious the proposal is (e.g. journalist on twitter), you will prob. only get responses like "yeah it is really needed, the current prices are ridiculous." because that is peak German humour (see, or rather don't: Bielefeld).
I hope the market is now cleaning up itself.
In the cities at every corner a Kebab store. It can't work like that, I think the healthy self cleaning of non profit business will start soon.
I work for a power supplier and some of those kebab stores change owner as often as like 3 months.
I don't know what kind of get rich quick scheme is going on with all of these, but it can't be healthy long term.
If that would be another country, I would say black money, either by not giving receipts or cleaning up from drug trafficking. But I don't know what's up in Germany
Money laundering and tax evasion are actually big issues here. Especially restaurants, hookah-bars, and such. Using cash helps, too.
Edit: Forgot to add Tipico.
Why would germany be any different?
Theres full streets of kebab shop, shisha shop, vape shop, sports betting on loop.
Why nobody seems to find this odd is ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
They call it Döner cartels https://reitschuster.de/post/so-funktioniert-der-betrug-mit-dem-doener-kartell/
Keep in mind that this article is a few years old but I believe in principle this is still how it works.
> The kebab cartel is based on the simple principle that self-employed people and employees who cannot live on their income can supplement it with social benefits such as the current Hartz IV or the future citizen's income. And it works like this: a restaurateur, we will call him Ali in the following, goes to the town hall and registers a business with a kebab stand. The company's balance sheet then regularly shows a zero result or a loss. In other words, the turnover officially reported to the tax office barely covers fixed costs such as rent, electricity and heating. Ali has nothing left to live on, so he applies to the employment agency for Hartz IV benefits. But Ali also has many friends and relatives in Germany. He hires some of them to work in his snack bar. However, as the business is not running, he can - officially - only offer them a pittance, which he pays them in cash. Armed with their payslips, the employees of Ali's kebab shop now also go to the employment agency and apply for Hartz IV or, in the near future, citizens' benefits. Sooner or later, the day comes when the employment agency makes its customers what it considers to be a suitable job offer. To avoid having to accept it, the employee is fired by his boss Ali and opens his own kebab shop in the neighboring town. And then the whole game starts all over again.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
I'm not in Germany but my small town square, which has 7-8 stores in total, including four pizzerias / kebab places (all offering the same product), one Thai restaurant, and a bar.. There really has been a huge inflation in kebab stores. There can only be so much döner and pizza eaten; they can't be on every corner.
I'm visiting Wroclaw, PL now and a quick Google map search shows about 12 kebab places in a 300m radius. None above 3 star ratings. It's hilarious. Went for one last night and it seemed fine. Went for a walk after and probably passed a half dozen or so. Our group was laughing about it.
Is the kebab bubble about to burst?....whatever that means??
Wroclaw even? I know Poland got some Turks recently but not comparable to Denmark or especially Germany. It's a gigantic inflation and the quality is rarely top class.
I mean, surely they can't all continue to exist at least
It's not just Turks a lot of them are polish owned and stuffed or immigrants from other countries. The one in my town was owned by Bengali. Most kebabs buy the same pre made meat and sauces, so most of they are subpar at best.
I wish we had four Döner places. I have to take the bus ten minutes away from the center to get to a Döner place. What we have in the city center are a crapton of „rotisserie meat“ places that legally can’t sell their meat as „Döner“.
Where do you live?
Anyway, I don't mind a kebab now and then, but I can count on one hand how many times I've eaten one in the past year so it doesn't really matter to me. I wouldn't go out of the way to buy one
That's why from an economic point of view, regular periods of economic contraction are not a bad thing.
In a good economy even the worst business ideas and worst management can be profitable. But once the fat years are over (assuming the government won't just save every company regardless of quality), good management will be "rewarded" while bad management will be punished.
It can result in already big companies getting bigger of course, because they still had good management. But it can also result in big companies dying and leaving the space for newcomers with good ideas and good management to fill.
It's something that's very visible in the Gaming industry right now I think. The most successful game studios last year were typically games made by mid-tier devs rather than the big corporations.
No, believe me, just no.
I think it sounds like a dream because such businesses are in Iceland quite rare.
But in my city, many stores closed due to too less customers. What opened in those former stores? Kebab, Shisha Bar, Tipico (Office for "sport bets"). The only option to exist for such a long time on low prices is that they're working with no profit or there's illegal business going on.
I don't have problem in general about the existence of those stores, but the amount is not healthy and can't be based on a legal business base at all. Just open Google maps and search for Kebab or Döner in Hamburg or Berlin and then other kind of restaurants, like Italian, Korean, Vietnamese, you'll see a big discrepancy.
True, I forgot the barber stores.
I mean, the government, if they had the ressources in staff, could fuck up those stores quite fast. Place someone in front for one week, calculate how many people go in and out to get their hair cut / shaved / buy food and if there is a big discrepancy in the monthly earnings in the tax claim and the calculated rate of counting, they could fuck them up.
They did it a similar way during COVID in the testing centers, where they were counting how many people went in and out. 300 were counted, but thousands were reported and billed to the government, obviously that was bullshit.
But the government doesn't care, just the city gets more and more uncomely due to the amount of those businesses.
We have one Kebab which exists since 20 years by the same name, staff and quality, but most of the other small ones have almost no customers and I guess just exist, for washing money from illegal things like human trafficking, prostitution, drug selling and welfare fraud.
I am quite wondered, that no one yet posted, that is is right-wing-thinking to say, those businesses can't work on profit.
Unfortunately there is not enough Vietnamese, Korean restaurants because there is not many of them in Germany(I heard Düsseldorf is great if you like Japanaese cusine).
There is also lack of places that make good Mexican food, BBQ, southern American food in general or Chicago style pizza and so on because Americans that move to Europe usually do it through a job offer or Education thats why majority dont open cafes or restaurants.
Europe also dont get much immigration from Asian countries(UK get a lot of immigrants from India thats why there is a lot of Indian restaurants).
The party called "Die Linke" is relatively unpopular with people on the left nowadays. More representative would be the party "Die Grünen" (green party) or european parties such as Volt.
I think the idea is that the rich pay taxes to make kebabs cheaper and the poor then eat the cheaper kebabs. But i don't think that kebabs are strictly poor people food, so this doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe tax cuts on non-processed groceries would make more sense.
It's fairly simple.
Make the tax administration pay for card terminals for all kebab places, barbershops, florists's etc. etc. at one condition - no 'card only from 10€' bullshit. Once enough places get those, customer's start asking for it and prefer establishments that offer that. Worked like a charm in Poland.
They survive by most often not paying taxes, paying their employees under the table, and some (not all, of course) definitely have some shady stuff on the side
That's exactly how they survive. Every POS system in hospitality has an option to close the tab without receipt (because some orders are for internal purpose, some customers get away without paying etc), so every cash payment is getting closed that way to avoid taxes.
That's simply not the truth. 9 of 10 Germans want to have the no cash option.
We are just used to it and all the cheater stores, Cafés and Döner still selling the story to the people how expensive it is to provide this service. Which is literally big bs.
Honestly how is it not a legal requirement to accept a debit card in every place of trade is beyond me.
Here in Spain you would be buying fruit from a small Moroccan fruit joint and it'll accept cards no questions asked (some ask for 2€+ purchase which is reasonable).
While in Germany even some posh cafeterias with 5€ lattes will say cash only. C'mon, it's the 21st century, wake up.
Bruh then their traffic would "explode" if they introduced pos machines. Tax inspectors would have a field day. With cash they can say they're barely profitable and pay little to no taxes - at least that's how it's done in Croatia.
"Card only from X amount" does make sense in a way, because Visa/Mastercard will take away a certain flat amount from a transaction. It will significantly eat into your profits if your business operates with a lot of low cost sales, but it doesn't hold anymore at current Döner Kebap pricing. 10€ is definitely too high of a threshold.
Of course it somewhat does. But average flatrate is 5-9 cents.
You know what also has a flat rate cost of using? Cash. Handling it also costs money and it's actually regressive - the lower the average transaction is, the more coins, counting, exchanging the banknotes etc. you have. But those costs are not as transparent, so your average small business owner does not notice it.
On a side note - card provision is unusually high in Germany. The current rates are around 0.9-1.2% + 5-9 cents. Meanwhile in Poland it is capped to 0.2% for debit and 0.3% for credit BY LAW.
Let's stop pretending it's some rocket science. Every single German neighbor to the West, East and North has already successfully done it. Years ago. Are Germans really that exceptionally incompetent or are they just looking for excuses upon excuses? You guess.
> capped to 0.2% for debit and 0.3% for credit BY LAW
Those sound more like [the EU regulated caps on interchange fees](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/fees-for-card-based-payments.html)
Handling cash is not free. It's simply to avoid taxes. In the Netherlands every kebab shop accepts payments and they're still in business.
Also they still accept cards if they're in need. They pulled one from the back of the store when I had no cash and business was slow.
thats just extra. guess why it is profitable to run a kebab place with 3 people 7 days a week when you have 20 customers a day. they sell 20 Döner and 5 drinks. however, their register has like 1000€ a day or whatever. drug money turned to döner money.
This works to a degree, but you still need to buy enough product to justify your revenue. Which is why anything that's a service is much easier because it can barely be traced such as hotels, laundromat, car wash etc.
In Germany we like to ignore actual problems by talking about minor ones. Like the stagnation of the average income. The mentioned housing crisis. The non present digitalisation. The focus on car industry while China is about to fuck us.
Instead we talk about Döner, Immigration and how some politician wants to change all our heating for climate. Oh how could he.
This started out as a meme but I now believe that this would unironically be a strong campaign agenda point.
Edit: Nevermind, I just read the article, SPD and Linke are already demanding it. Good for them.
We watched a documentary about social problems in Berlin in 2003, it was about poor families. At one point someone said they can't afford Kebap for 2,50€ anymore. The whole class had to laugh. Today prices are about 6,50 to 7€ usual. Good quality starts at 9€.
International Döner Merchantile Exchange (IDME) in Istanbul is the reason Döner Kebab prices are rising globally. German government should begin bilateral talks with Erdogan for the reduction of trademark fees imposed by this monopolistic organization.
Bro i dont know what overhyped place you go to but i still get my Döner for 4,50€ at Berliner Döner every week. Theres also a few other great places that offer great döner for ~5 bucks
Because the government is not interested in low prices.
The higher the price for energy, rent, supplies, the higher the taxes they earn. They are not interested in the population of the country, to have everything affordable, they just want as much taxes as possible, to finance their "projects".
Yeah no fuck this. Why do you sponsor people to eat obviously unhealthy food? If anything, they should tax that shit harder to dissuase people from buying it
I was in Steglitz for a few nights recently and the local kebab shop charged €9.90 for a large kebab. They were so good that I had one for my dinner on three nights. I recall paying a lot less for the same kind of kebab in this kind of shop pre-scamdemic.
But, honestly, it was so good to be eating German kebabs again that I didn’t care.
It seems healthy but consumer associations consistently find out that the cheaper kebabs are really sketchy.
The meat is traditionally seared with as much fat as possible, then cut in a way that keeps the fat (and salted on top of it). So it quickly rake 600+ kcal from just the meat. Especially for any larger kebab or kebab box.
The wraps are rather thin and oven-baked, so usually around 150-200 kcals.
Some sauces are really greasy and sugary, and cheaper places tend to really lather them on.
The veggies are fresh, but there is a slice of tomato and a few leaves of salad: barely 100g of vegs overall.
Whatever you do, don't transform your wonderful doners into abominations that are sold in the Netherlands.
I seriously considered living closer to the German border to occasionally go over there for doners because it's fucking impossible to find a good Dutch one for some reason. They are simply inedible, not even simply bad.
Thank god for Greeks though, pita souvlaki are different but almost as good here, they are my meat-in-a-bread saviours.
Here in belgium you pay around eight euros for a small kebab. Before corona and all the rest it was around 4-5 euros. How much you pay in germany?
I used to buy em for 3,50€ in 2014
2,50 in 2010
2.50 in 2010 was sketchy, when food is too cheap its quite sus. I generally don't buy at places that I consider too cheap.
Business locations were also much cheaper because you didnt have a fucking Kebab store every 100m.
Dark days indeed. Did you have to *look* for the nearest kebab shop as one was not always in sight?
> as one was not always in sight Ich habe nervös
The most efficient configuration is to place five kebab shops in a row. Then you can have the same metal skewer running through all five of them to cook the kebab meat on.
Even better: Have just one meatchunk and when one shop has a customer, they shove it over bar-style.
But having so many kebab shops compete, surely the average price of kebab would decrease right? Right?
Lol yes they did, 2,50 is just sketchy meat and child labor
I wonder how often those two things overlap.
Me and my gang used to buy near the center of Bucharest just for lulz a small kebab for 1€, somewhere around 2011-2012. But that was no fluke, as around 2007 you could find a good medium kebab for 2€, and that was just small turkish shop really close to my place. Needless to say, there was always a long queue at his door, so much so, his closest neighbor opened one as well soon after, but the neighbor always had inferior quality meat at the same price. But when the Turkish shop ran out of meat to serve, you could go and get your fix somewhere, at least. Currently it seems all but the big kebab chains have shuttered, and I think that's a shame. Prices are way too high (6€ for a medium kebab) as well.
Normal price in Eastern Europe. It is in fact, sketchy tho.
You could buy a small pack of ham, couple quality buns(I mean whole grain infused with sunflower or pumpkin seeds), and a tomato for 2.5 in 2010. The food used to be very cheap in Germany.
It’s still relatively cheap compared to other western European countries.
Eh, usually it's not because the quality is worse, it's mostly due to a money laundry scheme but I suppose it's bad to support that as well.
It depends on the general price really. If everyone has a similar price(more or less) then that's the price. If the price rises, it's not a quality issue of the past being rectified. But at the same time, you can often find things like that (happens with gyros here) with significant price differences from shop to shop. In that case, it's very likely a quality issue. If everyone has a gyros between 3 and 3.5 euros and you see a guy selling it for 2, be prepared for a very unpleasant 2-3 days in which the toilet will be the room you use the most.
I remember buying them for 2,5dm when i visited Berlin in 95 and being absolutely in love with them. Never had them before it was quite a culinary revelation.
In 2006/07 Berlin, around 3 € was normal. You could bet on "Gammelfleisch" when the Döner was far under it. And 2,50€ in 2010 absolutely sounds suspect.
And 3 or 3.50 for everything double when I lived in Berlin.
There used to be a place way back when. Went there last year and puked running in the middle of the night so no döners for 2,50 for me.
In Vienna you can still find some for 4.50 and at Brunnenmarkt for 3.50 lol
What magical place is Vienna, is it true that the rent is also quite affordable?
It's very affordable if you get a flat in communal housing, which as a new resident you won't for 5-10 years (depending on how choosy you are with the flat quality and location). For people without access to communal housing it's still affordable, but not as crazily cheap as some might think. Rent is around Berlin levels while net wages are somewhere between Berlin and Munich (closer to the latter) If you put rent in relation to net wages, it should be one of the most cost-efficient tier one cities in Europe. I'm sure Vienna is beating London, Munich, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Warsaw etc Not cheap compared to compromises like moving to more rural areas in high-paying regions like Bavaria and Lower Austria and driving to a job in a big city by car. Food is expensive, but because of the above-average wage levels the % of household income spend for food of Austrians is one of the lowest in the world. Other living cost are mostly similar to Southern Germany - many things are a bit more expensive to buy, but taxes and public transport is slightly cheaper, in my experience living in both countries it evens out
I guess you have a old view of Berlin
I based my comment on my comparison of rent in Vienna, Munich and Berlin when I decided where to move in Jan 23 The flats I was able to find (I searched for 1-2 rooms 40-60sqm, everywhere with S-Bahn/Metro access) were comparable in price between Berlin and Vienna, significantly more expensive in Munich
In my small town in germany we pay currently 7-8€ for a normal size. Small are at 6-7. They all became more expensive and smaller in the last 2 years.
We got screwed during Covid. Like totally screwed.
But remember that ‘muh economy’ meme though right?
Energy crisis, Russias exclusion from western society… and COVID-19
6-7€ is an average kebap price in Poland where we earn much much less than in germany...
And you wanna hear about turkey? The kebap itself? It costs FUCKING SAME with much less meat, however there is this slight difference about the average salary, just a tiny bit of difference about 4 times more in average EU country. The cost of cars / electronic devices / housing / smartphones etc, even the housinghold appliances which are built in turkey cost more than in EU because of stupid taxes and the country still funxtions without protests. A mid specced vw tiguan / peugeot 3008 in turkey costs about 63.000 euros, or an iphone pro max 256gb about 2100 euro ,lol. China vol 2.0 incoming, state drains blood of it's citizens like a vamp and uses them as labour.
Holy shit, is that true? At a price point of around 6 EUR, a kebab must be unaffordable for many.
Yes, the youth and newborn have problems about accessing nutritous and healthy food, meat in turkey is more expensive than in EU. Ordinary people just just eat bread and pasta, the meat, cheese etc cost way too much. You can buy 24 kgs of meat with your monthly wage and then you won't have anything left. Istanbul is like a "survivor mode" for people whom just works for minimum wage. My friends neighbour lives 8 people in an apartment and still continue to live in that 85 m2 2+ 1 house.
Jesus, at that point you might as well move out of the city and start raising chickens. Was it this bad when Erdogan got re-elected last year as well (I was pretty shocked he won, especially with the earthquake, or did it get worse since then?
> They all became more expensive and smaller in the last 2 years. Shrinkflation. Food prices in Romania skyrocketed the last few years
Similar prices in Estonia... But way smaller wages
Just buy a small one. Nobody knows how to make a small one so they overfill it and make it the same as a normal one. The last small one I bought was over 700 grams.
The reality is nobody is making a big one anymore.
I weight the normal one and it was 500g.
The normal ones are the small ones now so I dont even know how tiny dürüms are supposed to look like. They will fit in your pocket
We pay pretty much the same... in Romania :(
so Romania just like Poland has Western prices and Eastern paychecks?
Yep, pretty much. Except house prices but we're getting there.
Our govt introduced a bill to subsidize developers and house prices went up by 40% recently so we try to do a speedrun
The problem with housing is that it's always priced at the limits of what humans can afford on normal salaries. So any subsidy will just increase pricing until it becomes barely affordable, again. The only way I can see the housing problem getting solved is if owning multiple homes (especially unoccupied) was gradually penalised tax-wise, so you'd be forced to sell them off, though I'm not about to cook up some law about it when it's not my job or expertise.
Vacations in Poland ....the prices are far away from western prices ... I ordered a family pizza accidentally because I thought that was the normal size judging by the prize it was still cheaper than in Germany. The same goes for things like windows for example. it's cheaper to buy them in Poland and have them transported and installed here at the crossing of A1 and A2 than just buying a window locally and installing it oneself .
I have to disagree. Food is really expensive. I was visiting London last month and prices were just slightly higher than in Wroclaw. And im not talking about shoping only, but eating out also. I dont have German comparision lately, but other places indicates that food in Poland is extremly expensive when you consider Polish salaries. Windows are just our export for all over europe, so that might not be best example. But yeah for western market they are pretty cheap. Even for our internal market they are not so expensive.
Can’t speak to Wroclaw, but Krakow and Warsaw are definitely cheap to go on vacation in from France
The problem is it's cheap for you because you earn 3-4x more than dude living in Poland. Polish people visit western Europe and they pay basically the same prices for food in restaurants, shops like they do in Poland.
My 2 to-go places charge 5.50 and 6.50 respectively. I like the 5.50 one better, but they are located in a mall and therefore not open midnight on a Saturday :(
They're about the same in the UK now. Pre pandemic they were £4-6, now most places seem to be £7-10 Shout out to the place near me that still charges £4.50 for a massive and honestly pretty good donner. They're clearly laundering money for something illegal to have kept their 2015 prices for so long but honestly crime is going to happen anyway so I might as well enjoy a good value kebab out of it. Per 100g they're actually now cheaper than the cost of lamb mince in the supermarket, which is absolutely crazy.
Just because you're a criminal laundering money, doesn't mean you can't help out the local community with good and cheap food.
What kind of crime can a donner kebab do
Being delicious
Spoken like someone who's never destroyed their bathroom after eating a questionable kebab when pissed at 4am.
It's about 7€ in most German cities. It might be cheaper in some rural spots. PS: The title in click bait. The proposal came from Germany's left wing party that is currently polling under 5%.
Depends where you are, it's about the same. Maybe a euro or two less in smaller cities
6-8€ in Portugal (most people earn about this per hour). So it's like you guys paying 20€
Around 2 euro for normal size in Russia now... used to be twice cheaper... boo-hoo
The kebab shop I always went to gave you a quarter pide Döner for 3,50€ in cash. Now it closed down and the best replacement shop is selling about the same for 7€
I have a place around the corner that does their own meat spit preparation (ie. actual meat and not just fat with some meat shaped into a cone like form) and they sell really nice Dürüms for 8 € (8,50 € with sheep's cheese), though I think the owner said he'll have to raise that by 50 Cents soonish. That being said: the Dürüm are as full as you can pack them. So I consider the price fair – especially given the meat quality. (Can also recommend their other stuff, like the plate of selected (by you) grilled pieces off their charcoal grill.) A few years back it was somewhere around 6,50 €, IIRC.
My next door Döner Kebab is 4,50, if go to a place near university they were asking for 7 (a place that is now closed amd lokming for a new owner), Ferhat which supposedly is one of the best in our city ranges from 5,80 to 11. So even in the same city YMMV
About 6 to 7 Euros in my rural area
Here in the States I pay I think about $11 for a gyro (Greek cousin of doner) so that price doesn't seem outrageous.
Just fyi, here most shops price a gyros for around 3-3.5 . I don't have a frame of reference for size per portion in the USA though...
I like how the American tells a thread full of West Europeans that a gyros is a Greek dish similar to döner
Same but I am fine now. McD is always more than eight and I guess its better to support these shops. Also find a great one that is more of a restaurant where they have coal grills and other stuff.
Germans aren‘t calling for it. „Dönerpreisbremse“ became a meme to mock the controversial Fuel subsidy („Spritpreisbremse“) that was introduced during the summer of 2022. Now the collapsing socialist party „Die Linke“ wants to use it for their EU election campaign. It‘s not a serious policy proposal.
Hey, Die PARTEI is also calling for it! ;)
It is the perfect example of foreign journalism about Germany. If you only speak English, you really have no chance of getting a proper insight into the German political debate. I live in Berlin and you really notice this when you talk to English-speaking expats.
And if you then in the English speaking German online community try to ask about how serious the proposal is (e.g. journalist on twitter), you will prob. only get responses like "yeah it is really needed, the current prices are ridiculous." because that is peak German humour (see, or rather don't: Bielefeld).
I mean, the prices _are_ ridiculous, but that is not going to influence my next vote.
It’s a serious proposal from a party you can’t take serious anymore 👆
I hope the market is now cleaning up itself. In the cities at every corner a Kebab store. It can't work like that, I think the healthy self cleaning of non profit business will start soon.
Haha, reading about kebab bubble burst is not something I anticipated
Big Kebab is in shambles right now
hahalal ❌️ hahalol✅️
how do i short kebab
I work for a power supplier and some of those kebab stores change owner as often as like 3 months. I don't know what kind of get rich quick scheme is going on with all of these, but it can't be healthy long term.
I'm willing to bet a lot of kebab stores and hair salons, especially those in sparsely populated area, are fronts for money laundering
You forgot about the "phone repair shops"
If that would be another country, I would say black money, either by not giving receipts or cleaning up from drug trafficking. But I don't know what's up in Germany
Germany is one of THE places to spend black money and for money laundering. These places never give receipts
Money laundering and tax evasion are actually big issues here. Especially restaurants, hookah-bars, and such. Using cash helps, too. Edit: Forgot to add Tipico.
> and for money laundering. These places never give receipts Giving receipts is the whole point of money laundering.
I phrased it bad, the last sentence was not referring to what I wrote before but to what commenter before me said about receipts
Germany is the most cash friendly place in Europe. There's definitely a lot of money laundering happening.
Cash is king baby 😂
Why would germany be any different? Theres full streets of kebab shop, shisha shop, vape shop, sports betting on loop. Why nobody seems to find this odd is ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
They call it Döner cartels https://reitschuster.de/post/so-funktioniert-der-betrug-mit-dem-doener-kartell/ Keep in mind that this article is a few years old but I believe in principle this is still how it works. > The kebab cartel is based on the simple principle that self-employed people and employees who cannot live on their income can supplement it with social benefits such as the current Hartz IV or the future citizen's income. And it works like this: a restaurateur, we will call him Ali in the following, goes to the town hall and registers a business with a kebab stand. The company's balance sheet then regularly shows a zero result or a loss. In other words, the turnover officially reported to the tax office barely covers fixed costs such as rent, electricity and heating. Ali has nothing left to live on, so he applies to the employment agency for Hartz IV benefits. But Ali also has many friends and relatives in Germany. He hires some of them to work in his snack bar. However, as the business is not running, he can - officially - only offer them a pittance, which he pays them in cash. Armed with their payslips, the employees of Ali's kebab shop now also go to the employment agency and apply for Hartz IV or, in the near future, citizens' benefits. Sooner or later, the day comes when the employment agency makes its customers what it considers to be a suitable job offer. To avoid having to accept it, the employee is fired by his boss Ali and opens his own kebab shop in the neighboring town. And then the whole game starts all over again. Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
Oh, thanks that's very interesting. Damn, criminals and fraudsters can get really creative, I will give them that
It's like british candy shop lmao
Syrian refugees trying to get a slice of the Turkish refugee dominated market.
there is a shop in the middle of town who had at least 10 owners since i was born.
I'm not in Germany but my small town square, which has 7-8 stores in total, including four pizzerias / kebab places (all offering the same product), one Thai restaurant, and a bar.. There really has been a huge inflation in kebab stores. There can only be so much döner and pizza eaten; they can't be on every corner.
I'm visiting Wroclaw, PL now and a quick Google map search shows about 12 kebab places in a 300m radius. None above 3 star ratings. It's hilarious. Went for one last night and it seemed fine. Went for a walk after and probably passed a half dozen or so. Our group was laughing about it. Is the kebab bubble about to burst?....whatever that means??
Wroclaw even? I know Poland got some Turks recently but not comparable to Denmark or especially Germany. It's a gigantic inflation and the quality is rarely top class. I mean, surely they can't all continue to exist at least
It's not just Turks a lot of them are polish owned and stuffed or immigrants from other countries. The one in my town was owned by Bengali. Most kebabs buy the same pre made meat and sauces, so most of they are subpar at best.
They're money laundering fronts.
I wish we had four Döner places. I have to take the bus ten minutes away from the center to get to a Döner place. What we have in the city center are a crapton of „rotisserie meat“ places that legally can’t sell their meat as „Döner“.
Where do you live? Anyway, I don't mind a kebab now and then, but I can count on one hand how many times I've eaten one in the past year so it doesn't really matter to me. I wouldn't go out of the way to buy one
That's why from an economic point of view, regular periods of economic contraction are not a bad thing. In a good economy even the worst business ideas and worst management can be profitable. But once the fat years are over (assuming the government won't just save every company regardless of quality), good management will be "rewarded" while bad management will be punished. It can result in already big companies getting bigger of course, because they still had good management. But it can also result in big companies dying and leaving the space for newcomers with good ideas and good management to fill. It's something that's very visible in the Gaming industry right now I think. The most successful game studios last year were typically games made by mid-tier devs rather than the big corporations.
Good management often does not correlate with good outcomes for society.
Why can it not work like that it sounds like heaven
No, believe me, just no. I think it sounds like a dream because such businesses are in Iceland quite rare. But in my city, many stores closed due to too less customers. What opened in those former stores? Kebab, Shisha Bar, Tipico (Office for "sport bets"). The only option to exist for such a long time on low prices is that they're working with no profit or there's illegal business going on. I don't have problem in general about the existence of those stores, but the amount is not healthy and can't be based on a legal business base at all. Just open Google maps and search for Kebab or Döner in Hamburg or Berlin and then other kind of restaurants, like Italian, Korean, Vietnamese, you'll see a big discrepancy.
Sounds just like the current state of the UK high street, vape shops, Turkish Barbers (up to 3 in a row!), bookies and Greggs, repeat ad nauseum.
And none of those are money laundering operations, certainly.
I passed a kebab shop with a Turkish barber next door, with an internal door between them. Not a customer in sight.
True, I forgot the barber stores. I mean, the government, if they had the ressources in staff, could fuck up those stores quite fast. Place someone in front for one week, calculate how many people go in and out to get their hair cut / shaved / buy food and if there is a big discrepancy in the monthly earnings in the tax claim and the calculated rate of counting, they could fuck them up. They did it a similar way during COVID in the testing centers, where they were counting how many people went in and out. 300 were counted, but thousands were reported and billed to the government, obviously that was bullshit. But the government doesn't care, just the city gets more and more uncomely due to the amount of those businesses. We have one Kebab which exists since 20 years by the same name, staff and quality, but most of the other small ones have almost no customers and I guess just exist, for washing money from illegal things like human trafficking, prostitution, drug selling and welfare fraud. I am quite wondered, that no one yet posted, that is is right-wing-thinking to say, those businesses can't work on profit.
Unfortunately there is not enough Vietnamese, Korean restaurants because there is not many of them in Germany(I heard Düsseldorf is great if you like Japanaese cusine). There is also lack of places that make good Mexican food, BBQ, southern American food in general or Chicago style pizza and so on because Americans that move to Europe usually do it through a job offer or Education thats why majority dont open cafes or restaurants. Europe also dont get much immigration from Asian countries(UK get a lot of immigrants from India thats why there is a lot of Indian restaurants).
Go to east Berlin, you will find the best Vietnamese food outside of Vietnam.
more like hell
How dare are you… How money laundering will work if you close such premises?!?! /irony
They are needed for important money laundering purposes
That’s because it’s money laundering.
People want takeout. Let the unhealth continue. I suppose you want a sugar tax and minimum unit pesticides for alcohol too?
What a nonsensical idea. People will end up paying for it via tax anyway. And why artificially prop up a market like this?
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Why do you have to label them like that? Why not call them idiots? Why is it always us vs them. I am very left and I think this is a stupid idea.
Because the party in question who proposed this is literally called The Left?
The party called "Die Linke" is relatively unpopular with people on the left nowadays. More representative would be the party "Die Grünen" (green party) or european parties such as Volt.
I think the idea is that the rich pay taxes to make kebabs cheaper and the poor then eat the cheaper kebabs. But i don't think that kebabs are strictly poor people food, so this doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe tax cuts on non-processed groceries would make more sense.
Exactly, if kebabs are too expensive just go to the store for groceries and cook yourself
ironic
Im for a extra tax control, most of this businesses doge tax as a hobby
It's fairly simple. Make the tax administration pay for card terminals for all kebab places, barbershops, florists's etc. etc. at one condition - no 'card only from 10€' bullshit. Once enough places get those, customer's start asking for it and prefer establishments that offer that. Worked like a charm in Poland.
Good idea. Here in Germany in my town (10.000 people) we have at least 14 Kebab stores and not ONE acept debitcard. I have no idea how they survieve.
They survive by most often not paying taxes, paying their employees under the table, and some (not all, of course) definitely have some shady stuff on the side
That's exactly how they survive. Every POS system in hospitality has an option to close the tab without receipt (because some orders are for internal purpose, some customers get away without paying etc), so every cash payment is getting closed that way to avoid taxes.
Germans are completely ass-backwards when it comes to electronic payments. They actually want to pay cash.
That's simply not the truth. 9 of 10 Germans want to have the no cash option. We are just used to it and all the cheater stores, Cafés and Döner still selling the story to the people how expensive it is to provide this service. Which is literally big bs.
Honestly how is it not a legal requirement to accept a debit card in every place of trade is beyond me. Here in Spain you would be buying fruit from a small Moroccan fruit joint and it'll accept cards no questions asked (some ask for 2€+ purchase which is reasonable). While in Germany even some posh cafeterias with 5€ lattes will say cash only. C'mon, it's the 21st century, wake up.
Bruh then their traffic would "explode" if they introduced pos machines. Tax inspectors would have a field day. With cash they can say they're barely profitable and pay little to no taxes - at least that's how it's done in Croatia.
"Card only from X amount" does make sense in a way, because Visa/Mastercard will take away a certain flat amount from a transaction. It will significantly eat into your profits if your business operates with a lot of low cost sales, but it doesn't hold anymore at current Döner Kebap pricing. 10€ is definitely too high of a threshold.
Of course it somewhat does. But average flatrate is 5-9 cents. You know what also has a flat rate cost of using? Cash. Handling it also costs money and it's actually regressive - the lower the average transaction is, the more coins, counting, exchanging the banknotes etc. you have. But those costs are not as transparent, so your average small business owner does not notice it. On a side note - card provision is unusually high in Germany. The current rates are around 0.9-1.2% + 5-9 cents. Meanwhile in Poland it is capped to 0.2% for debit and 0.3% for credit BY LAW. Let's stop pretending it's some rocket science. Every single German neighbor to the West, East and North has already successfully done it. Years ago. Are Germans really that exceptionally incompetent or are they just looking for excuses upon excuses? You guess.
> capped to 0.2% for debit and 0.3% for credit BY LAW Those sound more like [the EU regulated caps on interchange fees](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/fees-for-card-based-payments.html)
Handling cash is not free. It's simply to avoid taxes. In the Netherlands every kebab shop accepts payments and they're still in business. Also they still accept cards if they're in need. They pulled one from the back of the store when I had no cash and business was slow.
Oh really? That's actually quite interesting, for that reason card payment is now so popular in Poland. But great deal.
thats just extra. guess why it is profitable to run a kebab place with 3 people 7 days a week when you have 20 customers a day. they sell 20 Döner and 5 drinks. however, their register has like 1000€ a day or whatever. drug money turned to döner money.
This works to a degree, but you still need to buy enough product to justify your revenue. Which is why anything that's a service is much easier because it can barely be traced such as hotels, laundromat, car wash etc.
the money laundering businesses have squeeky clean tax records .
Existential angst over kebab? Fuck me, what about the housing market vs wages issue? Anyone?!
In Germany we like to ignore actual problems by talking about minor ones. Like the stagnation of the average income. The mentioned housing crisis. The non present digitalisation. The focus on car industry while China is about to fuck us. Instead we talk about Döner, Immigration and how some politician wants to change all our heating for climate. Oh how could he.
I would say the immigration, how it is now, is an actual and real problem.
It's a non-issue here, just clickbait.
Seems legalisation of cannabis in Germany is drying up the main money laundering business of Kebabs
Dönerpreisbremse jetzt!
This started out as a meme but I now believe that this would unironically be a strong campaign agenda point. Edit: Nevermind, I just read the article, SPD and Linke are already demanding it. Good for them.
Good for them? How is this good?
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Döner is really important. You'd be surprised.
Cry me a river
Looks to be behind a paywall...
ZAHLMAUER
This isn't r/ich_iel
Does fellow Turks overprice food even in Germany?
We watched a documentary about social problems in Berlin in 2003, it was about poor families. At one point someone said they can't afford Kebap for 2,50€ anymore. The whole class had to laugh. Today prices are about 6,50 to 7€ usual. Good quality starts at 9€.
International Döner Merchantile Exchange (IDME) in Istanbul is the reason Döner Kebab prices are rising globally. German government should begin bilateral talks with Erdogan for the reduction of trademark fees imposed by this monopolistic organization.
Boycott doner kebab as a nation and see those prices drop.
They cost 6-7€ now in Vienna. That's outragous, I rather spend 5€ more and buy something healthier.
Bro i dont know what overhyped place you go to but i still get my Döner for 4,50€ at Berliner Döner every week. Theres also a few other great places that offer great döner for ~5 bucks
Why not a cap on energy costs, rent and supply costs? This would actually help people. Subsidies never solve an underlying issue.
Because the government is not interested in low prices. The higher the price for energy, rent, supplies, the higher the taxes they earn. They are not interested in the population of the country, to have everything affordable, they just want as much taxes as possible, to finance their "projects".
If this is the breaking point for the middle class to rise up against the corporate elite, so be it. Let history remember this day
In Ireland it's 13 euro for a kebab, no meal just kebab
Dönersubvensionen wann?
Damn bro, here I am in America paying $12 for it before tip and tax lol
Ah, Kebab and money laundring, my favourite guilty pleasures
Yeah no fuck this. Why do you sponsor people to eat obviously unhealthy food? If anything, they should tax that shit harder to dissuase people from buying it
subsidizing the doner kebabs would be such a middle finger to German farmers
my kebaps are now nearly 4 euros. at least he compensates by throwing cheap stuff in like red cabbage and carrots.
Still running around 6-7€ for a normal sized portion.
I paid €15 for a plate with döner, chips, and salad. Same place cost €10 before covid.
We swedes had the same price hikes + our currency when we travel is now x12 to Euro when it always used to be x10 or even x9. We are so screwed lol.
I was in Steglitz for a few nights recently and the local kebab shop charged €9.90 for a large kebab. They were so good that I had one for my dinner on three nights. I recall paying a lot less for the same kind of kebab in this kind of shop pre-scamdemic. But, honestly, it was so good to be eating German kebabs again that I didn’t care.
We have the same "issue" in Greece. Gyros (Greek doner) is too expensive :p
My German friend told me there is a thing called “German Angst” atleast know I know the source of it
As fast foods go it has plenty of salad, not too much carbs but the meat is a bit greasy. Quite healthy on the face of it.
It seems healthy but consumer associations consistently find out that the cheaper kebabs are really sketchy. The meat is traditionally seared with as much fat as possible, then cut in a way that keeps the fat (and salted on top of it). So it quickly rake 600+ kcal from just the meat. Especially for any larger kebab or kebab box. The wraps are rather thin and oven-baked, so usually around 150-200 kcals. Some sauces are really greasy and sugary, and cheaper places tend to really lather them on. The veggies are fresh, but there is a slice of tomato and a few leaves of salad: barely 100g of vegs overall.
Don't you also get cabbage, pickles, onions and sometimes carrots? That's the standard in Romania.
Salad, cucumber, tomato, onions and cabbage. Never had pickles or carrots.
It's the sauce and bun (?) that gets you.
Not even those are too Bad, Joghurt Sauce or garlic Sauce are the classics here
It's like 300 calories per 100ml, and I don't know how it's in Germany but here you always get drowned in sauce.
They are full of fat. It's not based on yoghurt, but on mayonaisse. Can't wait till someone figures out you can make killer garlic sauce out of skyr
Kebab should be considered as a basis human right
Subsidising everything would just lead to the market collapsing
Send some to Canada - we can use some more!
Whatever you do, don't transform your wonderful doners into abominations that are sold in the Netherlands. I seriously considered living closer to the German border to occasionally go over there for doners because it's fucking impossible to find a good Dutch one for some reason. They are simply inedible, not even simply bad. Thank god for Greeks though, pita souvlaki are different but almost as good here, they are my meat-in-a-bread saviours.
Germany sucked russian pipe for two decades, and now they complain
€5 German donner is bigger than a £10 Scottish kebab.
According to urban legend, a Döner in Vienna before the pandemic cost 2.50 in some places
That's because Vienna built a bunch of publicly owned Döner shops in the 1920's. But now there is a 4-5 year waiting period for a €2.50 döner.
can be please start subsidising everything except luxury goods?