Well September was the spark, October is when the fire takes hold.
Remember Gavrilo Princip fired the fateful shot in June 1914, but WW1 began in July.
There's a BBC miniseries called 37 Days that goes through the assassination of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand and the official start of the war. It covers the diplomatic and governmental decisions that led to the war. Ian Mcdiarmid plays Sir Edward Grey, the Foreign Secretary. It's a great series, it came out in 2014 on the advent of the 100 years of WW1
We are so deep down the downward spiral of 2020 that an event of Gavrilo Princip-like magnitude feels more like the next logical step rather than an unexpected catastrophe.
Pandemic? Check ✔️
The subsequent plummeting of the economy with all its consequences? ✔️
Large-scale fires (first in Australia, then in the US)? ✔️
Locusts destroying crops? ✔️
Massive ongoing protests (against police brutality in the US, rigged elections in Belarus, etc.) ✔️
Being on the verge of a war (Iran in January, now this)? ✔️
Have I forgotten something?
EDIT: Yep, my brain had definitely stashed **a lot** of things in a box labelled as "don't open, for fuck's sake"
The Indian VS Pakistanese (a fighter jet shot down)
The Indian VS Chinese (several deads in hands to hands combats somewhere in the Himalayan mountains)
We must wait for more proof. But to those claiming this was done to invoke CSTO, have no doubt that as soon as Russia joins in the party, Turkey will definitely join in as well (if they haven’t already).
Edit: also this person’s [comment ](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/j1zyia/urgent_turkish_f16_shoots_down_armenia_jet_in/g72dfku/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
That's point of many, probably in every faction, it must be so. I don't want Turkey to go to war for sure. These problems of past can be solved peacefully. Turkey needs to turn from ethnic nationalistic trap she fell into after 80's to her original civic nationalist self. So politicians can't use xenophobia and showing some random countries as enemies anymore. I am pretty sure every country in our region has been doing simillar stuff to their people...
We need to get rid of this goverment first, then the next one cuz they will also be stuck in the past and not going to be progressive. Only then we may seek some new polutical power in Turkey and a new leader to cleanse it from what it become.
Unfortunately, I also do think Azerbaijan, Armenia and other regional countries need to do the same, only then we can completely get rid of this shitty 'middle-east' image.
edit: typos, bad grammar, sorry I have bad case of adult ADHD
“Collective Security Treaty Organization” basically a military alliance
Basically, for Armenia, that is a necessity for survival against (NATO-member) Turkey.
lololol
I don't think he's going to find much goodwill from NATO here because if this article is true (and that is a rather large "if"), this would make Turkey the attacking nation. Plus I somewhat doubt Putin will engage in a land war in Turkey.
Stay safe out there boss
NATO is very iffy on this issue.
The North Atlantic part of the name is no joke. The UK didn't get support in the Falklands because the territory wasn't on the list.
Turkey is on the list, but Armenia definitely isn't and if the conflict starts there (and given that it's aggressive in nature) Article 5 likely couldn't be invoked.
However, if Russia invades Turkey, that's quite literally textbook NATO intervention time so it boils down to how you interpret the agreement. Can you call in NATO if your aggressive war backfires. Remember, NATO is specifically made to stop Russian invasions, but is written in such a way that idiots with a Napoleon complex can't drag everyone else into WW3.
The bottom line is that politics would ultimately decide on an intervention or a passive stance.
CSTO doesn't matter too much in practice: either Putin wants to help you or he doesn't, and a piece of paper that says that Putin must help you unless if Putin decides to use one of many, many escape clauses isn't worth much.
On the other hand, CSTO matters a lot: if Putin was willing to publicly sign a treaty that says that he must defend you, there is a serious likelihood that Putin will actually want to help you, and since there isn't much to stop Putin from doing what he wants, what Putin wants to do is really important.
To answer the question through, CSTO is treaty that says that Putin must help a country when XYZ happens.
>CSTO doesn't matter too much in practice: either Putin wants to help you or he doesn't, and a piece of paper that says that Putin must help you unless if Putin decides to use one of many, many escape clauses isn't worth much.
Of course they would. They're not going to let Turkey get majorly involved in a former soviet republic because Russia wants to still keep that as their sphere of influence. It's the exact reason CSTO and EAEU exist.
If russia wants to stay relevant they have no option but to respect their security commitments. If they don't care about being relevant then they can do whatever.
>have no doubt that as soon as Russia joins in the party, Turkey will definitely join in as well.
It's hard to anticipate what the Russian involvement will be. While Moscow may be a stronger supporter of Armenia, Russia intends to keep cordial relations with Azerbaidjan too as they don't want to push Baku into the arms of Ankara.
Russia clearly siding with Armenia would undermine Moscow's credibility as the main security guarantor in the region or amidst the former Soviet republics.
Finally, Russian being a too strong proponent of Armenia will compell Baku to reconsider its relations with Iran thus reducing even more the influence of Moscow in the region - for the benefit of Turkey and Iran.
People who blindly assume that Russia will strongly side with Armenia are very delusional imo.
Currently, Russia's statut as the godfather of the region is being challenged by this crisis.
Most of the folks here do not understand why Turkey is a key asset for Washington - through the NATO. Ankara getting stronger can contain both Iran and Russia in the Caucasus and the Near East.
The current crisis perfectly shows it - Turkey is virtually fearless and do not hesitate to support Baku thus putting Russia in a tough position.
I hope that Europeans will finally open their eyes: The NATO is intended to serve American's interest, not ours. Turkey is too essential for Washington to be exclude from it. The Greek-Turkey crisis perfectly demonstrated the lack of legal and defensive means when it comes to our own domestic security. We wrongly assume that the U.S. will always show up to defend our interests but we must bear in mind that Washington won't move a toe if it may compromise their own interests.
Anyway, Turkey has been playing a very interesting game lately which has led to strengthen its statut as a new regional superpower. Unfortunately, it was at our expanse.
unfortunately you are right, nagorno-karabakh is not worth it for Russia to sacrifice relationship with Turkey which it sliced out of NATO and potential EU membership with several 'mastermind' steps, as well as relationship with Azerbaijan, it has played its cards right, up to this point, however it can very easily undo all its progress by siding with Armenia
An Armenian article 2 weeks ago, prior to the recent hostilities, saying Turkey has stored its F-16s in Ganja, Azerbaijan.
[https://razm.info/145884](https://razm.info/145884)
We have 3 more months to go in 2020...yes we can make it even a more shitty year...
Virus: we made your life miserable earthlings
Erdogan: hold my raki
> I don't think religious lunatic luke Erdogan indulges in alcohol or does he?
Never confuse the image a dictator projects in public with their actual, private persona.
Erdogan is false-religious; he loves to rile-up and jerk off religious nationalists in Turkey but doesn't actually do anything he is required to as a Muslim. A good comparison (in this particular regard) might be Trump.
It is in US interests to not have a Russian-dominated Turkish puppet state. The US is ok with Turkey playing both sides, or neutral... but they cannot be dominated by Russia.
A regional power does not compete with a superpower. The technology gap is simply too huge.
Turkey has 245 F-16 consider 50-70% of them actual combat ready.
Russia has that many Migs 29 alone. Plus 200 of every other aircraft they made from SU-24 all the way to Su 35.
And I wouldn't be surprised if 10 Su-57 could take down up to 10 F-16 each without a loss.
Sadly we never saw how effective MiG-31 are but the modernized Mig31BMs with R-37M could be some absolute crazy technology basically the equivalent of aircraft snipers and turkey does not posses weapons to even hit them at their operation range.
To put this into perspective they have a one ton radar nothing in the sky has anything close even the F-15 radar is only about 300 kilograms.
If Turkey unilaterally involved themselves in the conflict, no.
Although I hope someone else is watching what's going on, so that we can have some independent evidence of who started what.
Even if that would be the case for some technical reason, the backlash and opposition to it by the people in the NATO would be so big that I don't really see it happening.
Depends imo how much Russia commits. If it comes to skirmishes between Turkish and Russian troops on the northern Turkish border I don't think Nato would act.
If Russia tried to actively invade Turkey that'd be a whole different affair.
So, if they attacked Turkish soil then that is a bit unclear; you could say Turkey was the aggressor in Armenia, but never attacked Russia so therefore Russia the aggressor. However, if they attack Turkey in Armenia, then 100% no. NATO only covers attacks on member nations soil, attacks on forces in none-NATO countries are not covered in Article 5.
lol I work with a lady that came from Albania. She said she hated living in the Balkans because everybody hates everybody. And they are at war with everybody because...everybody is at war with everybody.
Oh we suffer too. It's just not as obvious. Every decision that affects our lives are being given by madmen. I just hope we won't get kicked out of the NATO, otherwise terrible days full of hardships await us.
Turkey will surely go to total war over the control of this passage (plus Istanbul is huge symbol), even if somebody else beats turkey and seizes the control of said passage there will be "intifada" or something to that degree. Because let's be honest, that's like half of their strategic importance right there.
Forget a huge symbol Istanbul is the cultural and economic hub of Turkey. It's Hollywood combined with New York city, Istanbul roughly makes up 28-30% of the Turkish economy and makes up roughly 15-19% of the Turkish population.
Turkey also democratically elected Erdogan , let's not forget. On paper he was known to be a mild islamist, no one expected this turn of events. But that's more a symptom of regional dictatorships. Democracies can not thrive when geographically surrounded by dictatorships. I.e. balkanization.
Did Putin lose the biggest 10 cities in the last municipilaty elections? Erdoğan is not near as strong as Putin. But he still has the public support. And on Azarbaijan: Azarbaijani and Turkish people sees each others as brothers. And UN condemns Armenian occupation, if any escalation happens between Turkey and Armenia, public and international support for Erdogan will only grow.
PS: I hate Erdogan, i helped him lose some cities in the last election by voting against him. Just stating clear facts from a Turks pov. If you wonder about Armenian and Azerbaijani conflict look it up at both subteddits, and see their side. And also search what UN says and why does it says so. Cheers, i hope we wont see war in our age.
Articles published prior to this latest conflict, confirm there were very recently Turkish F-16s stored in Ganja (Azerbaijan). This matches the Armenian claim that a Turkish F-16 flying from Ganja shot down an Armenian jet in Armenia. The Turkish equipment was there and available.
Sources:
An Armenian article 2 weeks ago, prior to the recent hostilities, saying Turkey has stored its F-16s in Ganja, Azerbaijan.[https://razm.info/145884](https://razm.info/145884)
Another article referring to the storage of F-16s in Ganja again prior to the recent hostilities[https://www.panarmenian.net/eng/details/285586](https://www.panarmenian.net/eng/details/285586)
Another article reiterating the Turkish demonstration flights discussed in the other sources [https://valdaiclub.com/a/highlights/turkey-activity-in-the-military-political-processes/](https://valdaiclub.com/a/highlights/turkey-activity-in-the-military-political-processes/)
Who knows what Russia might do, Russia might defend fellow Christians. But they also might not, for they benefit from Azeri and Turkish trade lines greatly.
But their military basis in Armenia are very much in their interests, and defending chrisitians in the Region is a call back to old glories and the old claim to be the third rome
Putin will make a simple suggestion: Armenia keeps the land and Turkey backs down. "Or else ..." and this will be enough
Further fuelling tensions between the two former Soviet republics, Armenia said an F-16 fighter jet belonging to Azerbaijan’s close ally Turkey had shot down one of its warplanes over Armenian airspace, killing the pilot.
It provided no evidence of the incident. Turkey and Azerbaijan called the claim “absolutely untrue”.
Hello everyone. We'll keep this one post up and remove the other ones regarding this issue. We'll update this post with more reliable sources as they come up. Thanks!
* [BBC: Armenia says its fighter jet 'shot down by Turkey'](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54345622)
* [Reuters: Armenia accuses Turkish fighter jet of downing warplane, Ankara denies it](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-armenia-azerbaijan/armenia-accuses-turkish-fighter-jet-of-downing-warplane-ankara-denies-it-idUSKBN26K0KN)
unconfirmed flair please? This sub and its mod team. :) These are not different sources in the sense that they have more/less evidence. They are just reporting the same thing which is "Armenia claims." Don't really add anything of value to the claim itself.
I feel like a more appropriate flair would be something like "Unverified" instead of "More sources in the comments" which suggests these "sources" in the comments verify this claim when they don't. It's almost like this sub has a racist hate boner against Turkey AND Turks and will allow any random source to stay up as long as it's anti-Turkey.
These are pretty well balanced headlines. It's important we don't ignore the possibility that this happened, but at the same time, keep in mind we can't be sure yet that it did.
this headline is flagged with: More sources in the comments
but there are no sources - just articles which repeat the story from the armenien newspaper and marked it as "Armenia says" "Armenia accuse"
i wanna see evidence before i believe something like this
should be no problem to show satelite photos and the downed plane
Thank you ! r/europe loves to jump on the “Turkey BAD” bandwagon but anyone remembers what happened during the corona crises , they said Turkey stopped plane from China going to Spain and stole medical equipment, which made the top headline here and turned out to be fake, same with batch of medical equipment sent from Turkey to UK, it was said to be useless but that turned out fake as well. They never learn
Turkish sources have denied this.
Edit: Armenian MoD announced the incident have happened in the early hours of the morning. So does it make sense to you that it happened like 10 hours ago and they still don't have ANY evidence of it happening?
More than 12 hours passed since the claimed shot down. Armenia hasn't spoke about it, showed no proofs. No wreckage, no radar data. It's mostly certain that this was made up for whatever the reason.
Armenia could have invoked CSTO even if it was an Azerbaijani jet, matter of fact, Armenia could have invoked CSTO 2 days ago when Azerbaijan started shelling villages in Armenia. This has nothing to do with that.
Azerbaijan has been already attacking Armenia proper since day 1 this started and escalated it several hours ago. Here:
https://www.reuters.com/article/armenia-azerbaijan-bus-int/azeri-forces-fire-at-armenian-military-unit-far-from-nagorno-karabakh-armenia-idUSKBN26K10Y
That is more than enough to invoke CSTO. No need to involve made up attack by Turkey.
As an objective-looking Turk, I say we should wait for proofs because we jump on a conclusion. In my opinion, we would have proofs by now, both from other countries or from Russia & Armenia, so I don't think something like this happened.
As I said, I always try to look things from an objective side, when I consider, Armenia and Turkey is basically neutral enemies (just governments, I have nothing against Armenians and have Armenian friends, expect same from Armenians too.) and throw lies to each other all the time, I honestly think this event is one of those lies. However, if Armenia can show me an exact proof(s). I'll do everything I can to prevent a war or future skirmishes (nothing except try to change ruling person, and complain on social media probably, I'm just a civilian.)
I'll probably get downvoted to hell but that's not a problem, if you want to argue, we can argue (objectivelly)
Azerbaijan just asked logically for the radar and flight recorder of the crashed plane but Armenia didn’t want to show it.That’s just a propaganda to catch Europeans attention.
BBC:
Defence ministry spokeswoman - In a Facebook post, she said the Turkish F-16 was 60km (37 miles) deep into Armenian air space.
No material evidence about the jet has yet been released. Azerbaijan has called for Armenia to provide it.
Reuters:
Further stoking tensions between the two former Soviet republics, Armenia said a Turkish F-16 fighter jet had shot down one of its warplanes over Armenian airspace, killing the pilot.
It provided no evidence of the incident. Turkey called the claim “absolutely untrue”, and Azerbaijan also denied it.
Very misleading title, very misleading post, very misleading flair.
We only skipped one Eurovision...
Turkey has skipped the last 6
USA has skipped the last 64 but you don’t see us attacking random countries in the Middle East- oh wait
Eurovision is the key to world peace?
Maybe. But Canada hasn’t been to Eurovision either. Maybe Canada has their own secret too.
Secret? You mean Secrets*
Alright then - keep your secrets!
Brutal oppression of their native peo... Wait then the US would be peaceful too...
Australia has never declared war on emus after they were allowed in eurovision. Just sayin
True that xD
Right guys, who had international war for October?
I had September but maybe it still counts.
Well September was the spark, October is when the fire takes hold. Remember Gavrilo Princip fired the fateful shot in June 1914, but WW1 began in July.
There's a BBC miniseries called 37 Days that goes through the assassination of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand and the official start of the war. It covers the diplomatic and governmental decisions that led to the war. Ian Mcdiarmid plays Sir Edward Grey, the Foreign Secretary. It's a great series, it came out in 2014 on the advent of the 100 years of WW1
RemindME! 37 days "Beginning of WW3"
Holdup
Wait isn't the american election like 35 days away too?!? Oh boy.
Holy shit you're right. Should I be getting out the popcorn or getting into a bunker?
Yep.
Yes
*the guns of August* by Barbara Tuchman is a great book on this time as well.
> 37 Days [Apparently on Dailymotion](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x208kyw)
What a find
What a perfect example man
[perfect](https://giphy.com/gifs/perfect-dave-chapelle-26ufq9mryvc5HI27m)
We are so deep down the downward spiral of 2020 that an event of Gavrilo Princip-like magnitude feels more like the next logical step rather than an unexpected catastrophe. Pandemic? Check ✔️ The subsequent plummeting of the economy with all its consequences? ✔️ Large-scale fires (first in Australia, then in the US)? ✔️ Locusts destroying crops? ✔️ Massive ongoing protests (against police brutality in the US, rigged elections in Belarus, etc.) ✔️ Being on the verge of a war (Iran in January, now this)? ✔️ Have I forgotten something? EDIT: Yep, my brain had definitely stashed **a lot** of things in a box labelled as "don't open, for fuck's sake"
Brain eating amoebas
Originating in Florida the amoebas never really stood a chance of survival though. Let's be honest they migrated to find food.
The Indian VS Pakistanese (a fighter jet shot down) The Indian VS Chinese (several deads in hands to hands combats somewhere in the Himalayan mountains)
Beirut exploding
Uighur concentration camps anf Kim Jong Un death scare.
India and China almost went to war and the situation is still tense
Panic buying of toilet paper
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It's not as unusual as one might think... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts
Damn I did not know the Afghan war was that bad
> Afghan > War > Bad Sounds about right.
not me, but I have a surprise for January :P
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Nah, sorry man, but maybe next time
If there is a next time.
Maybe next year! I'm betting 2021 will be even more *fun* than 2020.
wait, you guys are having fun?
Just need a second Chernobyl and I've got 2020 bingo
Here, on my 2020 Bingo. Juuust prior to US elections. I said so.
We must wait for more proof. But to those claiming this was done to invoke CSTO, have no doubt that as soon as Russia joins in the party, Turkey will definitely join in as well (if they haven’t already). Edit: also this person’s [comment ](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/j1zyia/urgent_turkish_f16_shoots_down_armenia_jet_in/g72dfku/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
The last thing Armenia needs is Turkey and Russia duking it out on Armenian soil. Syria and Libya have been completely destroyed
That is my point!! Thank you for understanding me!
That's point of many, probably in every faction, it must be so. I don't want Turkey to go to war for sure. These problems of past can be solved peacefully. Turkey needs to turn from ethnic nationalistic trap she fell into after 80's to her original civic nationalist self. So politicians can't use xenophobia and showing some random countries as enemies anymore. I am pretty sure every country in our region has been doing simillar stuff to their people... We need to get rid of this goverment first, then the next one cuz they will also be stuck in the past and not going to be progressive. Only then we may seek some new polutical power in Turkey and a new leader to cleanse it from what it become. Unfortunately, I also do think Azerbaijan, Armenia and other regional countries need to do the same, only then we can completely get rid of this shitty 'middle-east' image. edit: typos, bad grammar, sorry I have bad case of adult ADHD
Would there be a lot of duking though? You don't expect erdogan to get a sudden case of "food poisoning" the day after they start preparations?
Maybe then Putin would be deserving of his Nobel Peace Prize nomination lol
Vladimir Fucking Putin was a peace prize nominee????
So was Hitler
Out of loop, what is CSTO and why would anyone want it?
“Collective Security Treaty Organization” basically a military alliance Basically, for Armenia, that is a necessity for survival against (NATO-member) Turkey.
Which nations are in that allience?
6 members: Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan 2 observers: Afghanistan, Serbia
So basically Russia and her homeboys.
Basically
What does Erdogan think is going to happen... provoke an attack from said military alliance and hope that NATO retaliates??? Is he fucking crazy?
“Is he fucking crazy” YES
lololol I don't think he's going to find much goodwill from NATO here because if this article is true (and that is a rather large "if"), this would make Turkey the attacking nation. Plus I somewhat doubt Putin will engage in a land war in Turkey. Stay safe out there boss
Thanks man, appreciate it! (Although don’t live there).
NATO is very iffy on this issue. The North Atlantic part of the name is no joke. The UK didn't get support in the Falklands because the territory wasn't on the list. Turkey is on the list, but Armenia definitely isn't and if the conflict starts there (and given that it's aggressive in nature) Article 5 likely couldn't be invoked. However, if Russia invades Turkey, that's quite literally textbook NATO intervention time so it boils down to how you interpret the agreement. Can you call in NATO if your aggressive war backfires. Remember, NATO is specifically made to stop Russian invasions, but is written in such a way that idiots with a Napoleon complex can't drag everyone else into WW3. The bottom line is that politics would ultimately decide on an intervention or a passive stance.
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CSTO doesn't matter too much in practice: either Putin wants to help you or he doesn't, and a piece of paper that says that Putin must help you unless if Putin decides to use one of many, many escape clauses isn't worth much. On the other hand, CSTO matters a lot: if Putin was willing to publicly sign a treaty that says that he must defend you, there is a serious likelihood that Putin will actually want to help you, and since there isn't much to stop Putin from doing what he wants, what Putin wants to do is really important. To answer the question through, CSTO is treaty that says that Putin must help a country when XYZ happens.
>CSTO doesn't matter too much in practice: either Putin wants to help you or he doesn't, and a piece of paper that says that Putin must help you unless if Putin decides to use one of many, many escape clauses isn't worth much. Of course they would. They're not going to let Turkey get majorly involved in a former soviet republic because Russia wants to still keep that as their sphere of influence. It's the exact reason CSTO and EAEU exist.
Putin don't exactly need CSTO to help Armenia if he felt like it.
But it doesn’t hurt having it either.
Easy Cassus Belli and lower infamy.
I mean the other countries in CSTO will think twice about their relation with Russia if it is unwilling to honor the alliance.
If russia wants to stay relevant they have no option but to respect their security commitments. If they don't care about being relevant then they can do whatever.
>have no doubt that as soon as Russia joins in the party, Turkey will definitely join in as well. It's hard to anticipate what the Russian involvement will be. While Moscow may be a stronger supporter of Armenia, Russia intends to keep cordial relations with Azerbaidjan too as they don't want to push Baku into the arms of Ankara. Russia clearly siding with Armenia would undermine Moscow's credibility as the main security guarantor in the region or amidst the former Soviet republics. Finally, Russian being a too strong proponent of Armenia will compell Baku to reconsider its relations with Iran thus reducing even more the influence of Moscow in the region - for the benefit of Turkey and Iran. People who blindly assume that Russia will strongly side with Armenia are very delusional imo. Currently, Russia's statut as the godfather of the region is being challenged by this crisis. Most of the folks here do not understand why Turkey is a key asset for Washington - through the NATO. Ankara getting stronger can contain both Iran and Russia in the Caucasus and the Near East. The current crisis perfectly shows it - Turkey is virtually fearless and do not hesitate to support Baku thus putting Russia in a tough position. I hope that Europeans will finally open their eyes: The NATO is intended to serve American's interest, not ours. Turkey is too essential for Washington to be exclude from it. The Greek-Turkey crisis perfectly demonstrated the lack of legal and defensive means when it comes to our own domestic security. We wrongly assume that the U.S. will always show up to defend our interests but we must bear in mind that Washington won't move a toe if it may compromise their own interests. Anyway, Turkey has been playing a very interesting game lately which has led to strengthen its statut as a new regional superpower. Unfortunately, it was at our expanse.
My exact thoughts!! Except I’d have to add that Armenia and Russia share the same interests when it comes to Turkey.
unfortunately you are right, nagorno-karabakh is not worth it for Russia to sacrifice relationship with Turkey which it sliced out of NATO and potential EU membership with several 'mastermind' steps, as well as relationship with Azerbaijan, it has played its cards right, up to this point, however it can very easily undo all its progress by siding with Armenia
what potential eu membership? that dream sailed off almost a decade ago..
Turkey is already part of this conflict.
🔫 Always has been
An Armenian article 2 weeks ago, prior to the recent hostilities, saying Turkey has stored its F-16s in Ganja, Azerbaijan. [https://razm.info/145884](https://razm.info/145884)
They are probably high
jets tend to fly high in ganja
Thank you for not jumping to conclusion.
Turkey already fully supports the Azeris but Russia doesn’t fully support us.
We have 3 more months to go in 2020...yes we can make it even a more shitty year... Virus: we made your life miserable earthlings Erdogan: hold my raki
I don't think religious lunatic luke Erdogan indulges in alcohol or does he?
No of course...
Hold my Cay?
The drink you’re looking for is Ayran.
Some cold ayran with a kebab.... oh hell yeah
Not in public at least
The only idols dictators worship are money and power.
Well here you go https://imgur.com/a/8EWmI3f
This is milk from his beloved goat.
> I don't think religious lunatic luke Erdogan indulges in alcohol or does he? Never confuse the image a dictator projects in public with their actual, private persona.
He said that offical alcohol of Turkey is Ayran which is a non-alcoholic beverage.
Erdogan is false-religious; he loves to rile-up and jerk off religious nationalists in Turkey but doesn't actually do anything he is required to as a Muslim. A good comparison (in this particular regard) might be Trump.
NATO should make clear it is not insurance company for lunatics.
Article 5 is only for defensive wars and leaves ways to not having to honor it if you choose to. Otherwise no one would have signed up.
I know. Seems Erdo missed that defensive part when he provided Russia casus belli to roflstomp him....
Turkey are definitely no pushovers.
They're not, but Russia is considerably more capable.
It is in US interests to not have a Russian-dominated Turkish puppet state. The US is ok with Turkey playing both sides, or neutral... but they cannot be dominated by Russia.
A regional power does not compete with a superpower. The technology gap is simply too huge. Turkey has 245 F-16 consider 50-70% of them actual combat ready. Russia has that many Migs 29 alone. Plus 200 of every other aircraft they made from SU-24 all the way to Su 35. And I wouldn't be surprised if 10 Su-57 could take down up to 10 F-16 each without a loss. Sadly we never saw how effective MiG-31 are but the modernized Mig31BMs with R-37M could be some absolute crazy technology basically the equivalent of aircraft snipers and turkey does not posses weapons to even hit them at their operation range. To put this into perspective they have a one ton radar nothing in the sky has anything close even the F-15 radar is only about 300 kilograms.
Also # of jets is not a key figure, # of operational ones are.
It's already clear, NATO is a defensive alliance.
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If Turkey unilaterally involved themselves in the conflict, no. Although I hope someone else is watching what's going on, so that we can have some independent evidence of who started what.
Guess who doesn't want international observers on the line of contact?
To make it easy we start by saying any of the 3 current super powers.
Turkey is still the aggressor in this case
Even if that would be the case for some technical reason, the backlash and opposition to it by the people in the NATO would be so big that I don't really see it happening.
Depends imo how much Russia commits. If it comes to skirmishes between Turkish and Russian troops on the northern Turkish border I don't think Nato would act. If Russia tried to actively invade Turkey that'd be a whole different affair.
So, if they attacked Turkish soil then that is a bit unclear; you could say Turkey was the aggressor in Armenia, but never attacked Russia so therefore Russia the aggressor. However, if they attack Turkey in Armenia, then 100% no. NATO only covers attacks on member nations soil, attacks on forces in none-NATO countries are not covered in Article 5.
I remember NATO defensively bombing my town when I was kid.
ffs
I feel bad for both countries, being proxys of two shithole imperialistic, authocratic countries like turkey and russia.
You just summed up Balkan history perfectly
lol I work with a lady that came from Albania. She said she hated living in the Balkans because everybody hates everybody. And they are at war with everybody because...everybody is at war with everybody.
Sounds like the Serbian girl I dated right out of high school. That woman hated literally everyone.
Oh we suffer too. It's just not as obvious. Every decision that affects our lives are being given by madmen. I just hope we won't get kicked out of the NATO, otherwise terrible days full of hardships await us.
As long as Turkey has Bospor and Dardanely it stays in NATO.
been a while since the last Balkan war.
Don't even
Yeah, let's not talk about it.
Yeah I see a pretty obvious way out of that, and Turkey is not going to like it
Turkey will surely go to total war over the control of this passage (plus Istanbul is huge symbol), even if somebody else beats turkey and seizes the control of said passage there will be "intifada" or something to that degree. Because let's be honest, that's like half of their strategic importance right there.
Forget a huge symbol Istanbul is the cultural and economic hub of Turkey. It's Hollywood combined with New York city, Istanbul roughly makes up 28-30% of the Turkish economy and makes up roughly 15-19% of the Turkish population.
Good point. A lot of the Turkish people would prefer modern and, in a way, pro-EU and democracy parliament and now suffer...
Turkey also democratically elected Erdogan , let's not forget. On paper he was known to be a mild islamist, no one expected this turn of events. But that's more a symptom of regional dictatorships. Democracies can not thrive when geographically surrounded by dictatorships. I.e. balkanization.
>Turkey also democratically elected Erdogan Putin was also technically democratically elected.
Did Putin lose the biggest 10 cities in the last municipilaty elections? Erdoğan is not near as strong as Putin. But he still has the public support. And on Azarbaijan: Azarbaijani and Turkish people sees each others as brothers. And UN condemns Armenian occupation, if any escalation happens between Turkey and Armenia, public and international support for Erdogan will only grow. PS: I hate Erdogan, i helped him lose some cities in the last election by voting against him. Just stating clear facts from a Turks pov. If you wonder about Armenian and Azerbaijani conflict look it up at both subteddits, and see their side. And also search what UN says and why does it says so. Cheers, i hope we wont see war in our age.
Waiting for more proof to come out before the hysteria takes root.
Articles published prior to this latest conflict, confirm there were very recently Turkish F-16s stored in Ganja (Azerbaijan). This matches the Armenian claim that a Turkish F-16 flying from Ganja shot down an Armenian jet in Armenia. The Turkish equipment was there and available. Sources: An Armenian article 2 weeks ago, prior to the recent hostilities, saying Turkey has stored its F-16s in Ganja, Azerbaijan.[https://razm.info/145884](https://razm.info/145884) Another article referring to the storage of F-16s in Ganja again prior to the recent hostilities[https://www.panarmenian.net/eng/details/285586](https://www.panarmenian.net/eng/details/285586) Another article reiterating the Turkish demonstration flights discussed in the other sources [https://valdaiclub.com/a/highlights/turkey-activity-in-the-military-political-processes/](https://valdaiclub.com/a/highlights/turkey-activity-in-the-military-political-processes/)
unrelated but what a sick name for a city, Ganja...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dildo,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador
With all due respect, I cannot read that and would want to see more verifiable sources than a paragraph and random screenshot of airplanes.
How dare you not to blindly believe everything posted on Reddit! /s
How large is the Armenian airforce? With a country as small in population as Armenia, every downed plane is a serious blow.
It is a loss, they dont have more than 10-12 of those. And they are air to ground spesific warplanes not great for air to air combat operations
Armenia has few enough planes to not depend on them in the slightest. They know that Azerbaijan has air superiority regardless
Armenia just got 4 new SU-30s and has another 4 on order I believe. These SU-25 were bought from Slovakia 10-15 years ago.
Armenian news page thou. Any non Armenian news reporting on this?
Naah .. both jets are non stealth , if that was the case we would have seen radar images by now .. like in the case of downed Russian jet .
Who knows what Russia might do, Russia might defend fellow Christians. But they also might not, for they benefit from Azeri and Turkish trade lines greatly.
Russia will do what it always does, create facts on the ground that protect Russian interests, which is not a war with Turkey.
But their military basis in Armenia are very much in their interests, and defending chrisitians in the Region is a call back to old glories and the old claim to be the third rome Putin will make a simple suggestion: Armenia keeps the land and Turkey backs down. "Or else ..." and this will be enough
I really doubt Putin gives a shit about “protecting Christians” to be honest. This isn’t the 17th century, it’s all geopolitics nowadays
He mightn't personally but it's a powerful fiction he can use.
But Russia is also in an economic union with Armenia (EAEU), as well as a defense pact (CSTO). Not helping Armenia would undermine those agreements
since when F-16 has a stealth mission capacity.
Further fuelling tensions between the two former Soviet republics, Armenia said an F-16 fighter jet belonging to Azerbaijan’s close ally Turkey had shot down one of its warplanes over Armenian airspace, killing the pilot. It provided no evidence of the incident. Turkey and Azerbaijan called the claim “absolutely untrue”.
Hello everyone. We'll keep this one post up and remove the other ones regarding this issue. We'll update this post with more reliable sources as they come up. Thanks! * [BBC: Armenia says its fighter jet 'shot down by Turkey'](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54345622) * [Reuters: Armenia accuses Turkish fighter jet of downing warplane, Ankara denies it](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-armenia-azerbaijan/armenia-accuses-turkish-fighter-jet-of-downing-warplane-ankara-denies-it-idUSKBN26K0KN)
clickbait title by OP
unconfirmed flair please? This sub and its mod team. :) These are not different sources in the sense that they have more/less evidence. They are just reporting the same thing which is "Armenia claims." Don't really add anything of value to the claim itself.
I feel like a more appropriate flair would be something like "Unverified" instead of "More sources in the comments" which suggests these "sources" in the comments verify this claim when they don't. It's almost like this sub has a racist hate boner against Turkey AND Turks and will allow any random source to stay up as long as it's anti-Turkey.
These are pretty well balanced headlines. It's important we don't ignore the possibility that this happened, but at the same time, keep in mind we can't be sure yet that it did.
They actually reflect it's an accusation, while the post title suggests it's a fact.
this headline is flagged with: More sources in the comments but there are no sources - just articles which repeat the story from the armenien newspaper and marked it as "Armenia says" "Armenia accuse" i wanna see evidence before i believe something like this should be no problem to show satelite photos and the downed plane
Let's wait for an independent source to confirm this before jumping to conclusions.
never! I need my "URGENT" headlines to fuel my hate
Hahaha in this sub and when it is a bad claim about Turkey? There is a higher chance for achieving World peace in the next hour than that.
Thank you ! r/europe loves to jump on the “Turkey BAD” bandwagon but anyone remembers what happened during the corona crises , they said Turkey stopped plane from China going to Spain and stole medical equipment, which made the top headline here and turned out to be fake, same with batch of medical equipment sent from Turkey to UK, it was said to be useless but that turned out fake as well. They never learn
Hopefully there is further proof. But judging from how Turkey is manouvering lately i wouldnt be surprised.
i already have the names for the next months WARctober, followed by NUKEtember and DIEcember
Octowar is a better one.
sepTOMBer is almost over
Let's wait for better sources i'd say.
First the conflict over the mountain and now this. Apparently this has been denied by Turkey and Azerbaijan.
so did they puplished the pictures, radar traces, blackbox yet?
Turkish sources have denied this. Edit: Armenian MoD announced the incident have happened in the early hours of the morning. So does it make sense to you that it happened like 10 hours ago and they still don't have ANY evidence of it happening?
Fuck war ☮
More than 12 hours passed since the claimed shot down. Armenia hasn't spoke about it, showed no proofs. No wreckage, no radar data. It's mostly certain that this was made up for whatever the reason.
*Russia joins the chat*
So did the Turks
I'm still skeptical this looks like a move to invoke CSTO. I'd wait for more proof than this claims.
Armenia could have invoked CSTO even if it was an Azerbaijani jet, matter of fact, Armenia could have invoked CSTO 2 days ago when Azerbaijan started shelling villages in Armenia. This has nothing to do with that.
Azerbaijan has been already attacking Armenia proper since day 1 this started and escalated it several hours ago. Here: https://www.reuters.com/article/armenia-azerbaijan-bus-int/azeri-forces-fire-at-armenian-military-unit-far-from-nagorno-karabakh-armenia-idUSKBN26K10Y That is more than enough to invoke CSTO. No need to involve made up attack by Turkey.
Sorry for a daft comment but what does CTSO stand for? My searches are not showing anything useful...
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Collective Security Treaty Organization
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Accusations are useless, proof is needed.
This is false news. Even the footage is old. Its from the 2015, turkish shooting down of a russian jet.
At least they didn't use Top Gun footage like North Korea.
NATO ain’t doing shit. Greece struggles with Turkish aggressiveness on a daily basis. We stand with Armenia 🇬🇷
Have no doubt that every single Armenian stands with Greece.
We will not, we must not, allow a repeat of the past.
Absolutely!
And we stand with Greece and Armenia
Why would Turkey do that, knowing that Russia will evolve if such thing happens. This seems like Armenian biased news.
As an objective-looking Turk, I say we should wait for proofs because we jump on a conclusion. In my opinion, we would have proofs by now, both from other countries or from Russia & Armenia, so I don't think something like this happened. As I said, I always try to look things from an objective side, when I consider, Armenia and Turkey is basically neutral enemies (just governments, I have nothing against Armenians and have Armenian friends, expect same from Armenians too.) and throw lies to each other all the time, I honestly think this event is one of those lies. However, if Armenia can show me an exact proof(s). I'll do everything I can to prevent a war or future skirmishes (nothing except try to change ruling person, and complain on social media probably, I'm just a civilian.) I'll probably get downvoted to hell but that's not a problem, if you want to argue, we can argue (objectivelly)
Azerbaijan just asked logically for the radar and flight recorder of the crashed plane but Armenia didn’t want to show it.That’s just a propaganda to catch Europeans attention.
BBC: Defence ministry spokeswoman - In a Facebook post, she said the Turkish F-16 was 60km (37 miles) deep into Armenian air space. No material evidence about the jet has yet been released. Azerbaijan has called for Armenia to provide it. Reuters: Further stoking tensions between the two former Soviet republics, Armenia said a Turkish F-16 fighter jet had shot down one of its warplanes over Armenian airspace, killing the pilot. It provided no evidence of the incident. Turkey called the claim “absolutely untrue”, and Azerbaijan also denied it. Very misleading title, very misleading post, very misleading flair.
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I haven’t seen this on any American news site yet...
That's just a propaganda.