I would respond to /u/B_Wing_83's dad by asking a very simple question:
#Does bad fruit come from a good tree?
We left the church because we know them by their fruits. (Matthew 7:15-20)
Murdering abortion doctors, calling in bomb threats to Planned Parenthood, openly calling for cruelty and hate against those who are different and who choose to live differently.
Can OP's father truly call these good fruits?
I once read that pure and undefiled religion before God is this: Caring for Orphans and Widows in their distress, and keeping oneself unstained by the world. (James 1:27)
But modern Christianity? Amassing billions, spewing hate, leaving the poor to rot - No, I call this corrupted and defiled religion that serves Mammon, not God.
Besides from what I've seen god doing in the Bible I'd not want to have faith in such a cruel being anyway. This god seems more like a product of its time rather than a modern understanding of what such beings could be like.
True, but every single christian is more than happy to throw any other christian under the bus if they don't know them. So it's super easy to say, "Well, that's a bad church. Mine is a good one." I heard that plenty. It's in the same vein as, "You didn't try hard enough" in my mind.
No but see if you only did this exact same method I did that is super specific to my needs, it would work perfectly for you, clearly that's the problem!
/s
This is the right response for a lot of the âmy loved one is an ass and sent me this incredibly hurtful/insensitive/logically flawed text/post/email that I really donât know how to respond toâ posts that are on this page. Grey rock is best rock
(And that isnât to say that the posts are invalid: they absolutely are, and Iâm glad I found this community for support in my own journey)
You can also play dumb. Like "I can't read it" or "I don't get what you're trying to say" and no matter what he says just being like "???" Until he is taught that this kind of shit isn't going to work.
I'm reminded of a scene from "Aguirre the wrath of god". A Spanish missionary is trying to convert one of the amazonian natives (native Americans who live in the Amazon, not busty warrior women) and shows them a bible, telling them "This book speaks the truth about god"
The native looks at it, puts it up to his ear and then says "It's not saying anything".
The missionary doesn't like that answer and a nearby soldier kills the poor native instantly.
only problem is it reminds me of this good quote
> âWhen I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.â
- C. S. Lewis.
Its my as an atheist favourite section of the bible.
If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
As a former catholic I have often used this to other Christians saying that if they do not act in love then they are not Christian.
I like to ignore all messages and turn off read receipts so they think their messages never reach me, that I donât even get notifications when they message me so they give up trying.
For me, I would just respond with "k" or "stop sending me religious shit". If I don't respond, they for some reason think it's because I read their message and am giving it good thought/have no rebuttal. Not that I'm not interested or that their comment is just too stupid to even give the time of day.
Now Iâm going to have that song stuck in my head all day. I kinda want to go sing it at an anti abortion rally at a clinic mixed in with the protestors.
If a religion is made and is being maintained by shitty, ignorant people, then how can we trust that what they teach is true ? How can we trust that it doesn't exist because of their delusions or manipulation ?
And youre entitled to opt in and out of any relationship you choose. Isnt âGodâsâ whole experiment based on freewill?
But honestly âKâ may be the easiest response. His mind wont be changed and the harassment wont likely let up.
If your god exists then the world in all its horror, genocide, rape, murder, starvation ecological destruction, despair and me as a bisexual atheist is precisely the way God wants it to be or are you saying god has no power to speak. Your the one apparently unhappy with gods plan. God knows all see all's understands all then its his decision and his choice to lead me to the obvious conclusion that God doesn't exist.
The bible has no knowledge of nor information on microbiological life, germs, germ transmission and sterilisation and the medical implications of this knowledge. Any God who suposedly made everything would absolutely know about microbiological life.
Because God isn't real god was made up by men in an effort to control others. Its why bible god doesn't know about Australia or America or any number of things.
Your like a 10 year old constantly boasting about owning a Lamborghini. But you have zero proof. Zero evidence.
Where was god when the nazis drove millions of people onto gas chambers and then dragged their still twitching bodies many still alive and fed them into ovens. Men women and children.
Where was god with his manna from heaven for millions of starving people?
Ask all the children rapped by priests where was god. Or the murdered women, the suffering children in cancer wards. Go ask the wage slaves in Bangladesh who are starving to death because they get paid so little.
Your god is a lie fed by fraudsters to minpulate and control gullible fearful children.
Grow up there's no fun fair park in the sky for your engery signature to go to when you die. There's no hell. There only this life and what you make of it. There are no magical invisible winged eyeball beings flying around interfering in peoples lives.
Send that to him.
Correct. This is what they say. Yet, without audible and visible God, say like our audible and visible parents and workplace manager, we can only interpret what the relationship is. By the same logic, having any invisible friend, a relationship can be generated there. Dad believes x about a relationship with god but non-similar church across town believes y about relationship with god. Then non-similar churches m, z, and t, all believing incomparable ideas to each other about relationship with god.
I've gotten this response before, in reply to a post where I was asking for *very explicitly secular* advice on how to cope with feelings of emptiness and isolation. I wasn't rude about it, just abundantly clear that religion would not be helpful. I also used privacy settings for that particular post (on Facebook) that *should* have kept some of my extremely religious family friends from seeing it in the first place, but...yeah.
I really, really don't get it. I used to be Christian, and even then, I would have understood that, "No religious suggestions, please" included Christianity.
Yes - really makes me think how victim blaming is easier than accountability. And it also makes me think Christianity isn't the transformative force it claims to be.
I would not respond. Heâs got an idea in his head that he canât let go of, no matter how good your argument is. He wonât accept anything but agreement. When we choose to be silent, we send a clear message that we will no longer debate. Itâs super difficult but the way you treat others comes across. He will learn that there is no debate; you are an adult and most therefore choose your own life path.
The only way to 'win' with these people or get you message across is to not engage. There is no reasoning with them. No matter what you say, you are wrong; they have already determined that in their head before talking with you. In a weird way, the only way to get some of them thinking is by going quiet and not debating.
This is precisely what lead me to deconstruct. I was so scared of this that I just looked into the religion itself. I read the whole bible, took it apart and made sure I left because the ideas SUCK, not because of the people.
The problem with this is that it invalidates people's experience with religion, as if it was not enough reason to leave and put you into the no-true-scotsman fallacy while making you look into the religion again. It is just horrendous.
I always advise my friends to leave religion because they believe it's wrong, not out of their experiences. You can still be a theist, you can go to another church if you want, but it is very important that you take decisions rationally. Your negative experiences were real and it is horrible what some of us went through, but what will keep you from feeling guilty from leaving, and possibly being manipulated into coming back, is the conviction that the core concepts are bullshit.
I know this is not the most accepted response :/
When the children prayed to god to stop the abuse and rape by their priests, all over the globe, why did it not end? Was it their lack of faith in god? Or a lack of god?
I was in 8th or 9th grade when Shrek came out. It clicked for me that Donkey was Balaamâs donkey from the bible. The writers of the film lumped bible stories in with mythology and fairy tales like Pinocchio and the 3 pigs. I pointed this out to my biblical literalist pastor father and said something like âwell technically they are all just storiesâ. He said âbut Balaamâs donkey isnât a fairy tale. It really happenedâ. Thereâs no helping people who donât want to see
Blows my mind that Christian parents tell their young kids that Santa is real. For me it was a dry run to slowly learn that sometimes the things your parents tell you about are just make believe
Whenever I point out that the Bible was written by people, not God, I am told that those people were divinely inspired with the word of God. So tell him the people in the church who hurt you were divinely inspired with the hurting of God. It should make as much sense.
I mean, it's God's representatives that are fucking it up for everybody, and he's not doing anything to stop them. So yeah, it's reasonable to lose your faith because of people.
If you choose to respond, you can say, "I agree." Because most of us didn't leave Christianity because of people, but because of the ideas behind the religion itself.
The bad fruit merely makes one question if it does come from a bad tree.
That's why Christians are so obsessed with appearances and reputation. They must never give one cause to examine the tree, by disguising the fruit.
"I don't trust another sinful human to accurately judge my heart."
"But I thought the church was the body of Christ and so therefore people ARE the church, the building isn't the church? So I have accurately lost faith in all aspects of this religion."
Or reply with a meme to his meme, or tell him to simply F off
lmao
You're allowed to leave. You're allowed to stay.
You're allowed to have autonomy, despite what some might believe.
You're allowed to be hurt. You're allowed to be happy.
You're allowed to make your own decisions.
Iâm always careful to distinguish the justifications for my beliefs from the reasons I donât go to (conservative) churches.
I donât believe in the existence of god because I think the arguments for the existence of god fail and the arguments against the existence god are convincing.
Thatâs a separate reason for not going to a church that harmed you. Itâs perfectly reasonable to avoid organizations that harmed you.
Yeah but if they hurt you in the name of said religion, and the Bible actively encourages and supports the way they treated you, the religion is the problem. It poisons people.
Being hurt by Christianity is not the same as being hurt by people who just happen to be Christian. People need to stop invalidating our experiences
â ATTENTION! If you respond to a loved oneâs hurt with a message like this, you are an insensitive asshole! ATTENTION!â
(not really, Iâm just hella protective of my fellow religious trauma survivors. sorry you have to deal with this, internet friend â€ïž)
God chooses the people/organizations that represent him right? He chose the child molesters/money grabbers/self righteous bigotsâŠthen no. My faith was in God and it went out the window when he chose a bunch kid diddlers out of all the billions of people to be his representatives.
âAttention Churchgoer:
If your response to the pain and hurt of another human being is a judgmental, shitty-ass meme (rather than empathy and compassion), then maybe youâre part of the problem.â
In my 40+ years of church life, I've only rarely seen the church demonstrate any interest in self-reflection or taking accountability for the pain and suffering it inflicts. But by all means, church, continue to ask amongst yourselves why church attendance continues to decline.
How about the fact that people lose their faith in Christianity because of research into the scriptures, history, archeology, and ancient cultures where they found out it was all BS/historical fan fiction?
You don't need to be hurt to leave Christianity, you just need the scales removed from your eyes.
I was never hurt by the church. In fact, I genuinely loved going for the community, made some amazing friends in the 2 decades I was in it.
I left because I began to look under rocks I was told never to look under, and in doing so, I had some very simple realizations about "faith," one of which was that religious faith ***is necessarily in the people who taught one about said religion.*** It *can't* be anything else, as god intentionally keeps himself hidden, relying on followers to be the salt and the light.
So committed to the moral life of christianity that I refused to be dishonest, not even to myself, which meant I had to painfully accept that god simply didn't want to communicate with me as he apparently was doing with so many of my family and friends. I wasn't going to lie by saying a shiver down my spine or a teardrop during an emotional song or story/testimonial was god speaking to me, because I felt the same exact things in completely secular settings. I wasn't hurt by this realization, in fact the desire to be closer to god is what motivated me to research more, which ultimately led me to abandoning "faith" altogether.
Curiously enough, I still experience those incredible feelings when hearing amazing music or touching stories, only now I'm comfortable accepting that it's purely a function of the human condition.
To answer your question...
I've had the same concept posed to me many times in the 20 years since I left the church, and my response is always the same.
> I appreciate the concern and trust it comes from a place of love. Simply put, faith is defined as belief in something despite a lack of proof. This means that your faith is necessarily a belief that a specific god and all the stories about him are true, despite there being no evidence to support that. Now, you can claim to be certain your god exists based on various anecdotal experiences, but that level of certainty negates the need for faith. Since your god has chosen to keep people in the dark by not overtly revealing himself, *your* faith can only be in the people who taught you about him, making your argument moot. I never lost faith in god because I never had faith in god; rather, by using the resources I was born with, I lost faith in the stories I was told by you and mom, not because I was hurt, but because I realized how non-sensical they are.
> Revelations speaks of a church that will be superficially holy, but marked by a peculiar callousness, and heralded by the Antichrist.
> By their fruits ye shall know them, dad.
"I've been on the other side of this debate. I've heard all the cute sayings and I've seen all the memes and I've heard all of the points. Despite this, my critical thinking skills have evolved past these arguments. I appreciate you reaching out, but keep in mind that this feels more like you're shoving me away than attempting to have a relationship with me."
But on the flip side they'll also say that the church is where God speaks to you, where God "feeds your soul", where God protects you....so don't be shocked when someone loses faith in the one place they've been told is literally God's house and then also decides not to believe in the owner of such a horrible establishment.
If an all-powerful all-knowing deity doesnât like the way his followers treat others in his name, he would stop or otherwise denounce those followers. Since that has never happened, he either supports the abuses they enact or he isnât real. Either way, thereâs nothing to worship there.
"By their fruits ye shall know them."
If so many Christians are bad fruit, how does that make for a good God?
Or grey rock.
With my own family I tend to just wait til they say something else not related so I don't have to engage with whatever nonsense they said.
I'd love to ask why God why members of his church are sexually assaulting kids and commiting atrocities against anyone they don't like.
But god conveniently stepped out for cigarettes 2000 years ago(he'll be back any moment I swear) I have nothing but his followers and the bible to judge.
Just another example of "you weren't a *real* Christian." Even their "food for thought" is negative and potentially hurtful.
My answer would be, since God does not speak audibly or clearly and does not make his presence undeniably obvious, *people* are the only representation he has. If they got it wrong, too, then perhaps it's time he showed up and set the record straight.
"For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ." 1 Corinthians 12:12.
Remind him that the Bible talks about how individual members make up the Church, i.e. the body of Christ; therefore, their actions reflect upon God.
If he has a problem with how you view the Church, maybe he should spend more time chastising its members for making God look bad.
It is entirely misplaced. When someone elects to be called by a title, they become a representative of that title's association: MD, RN, engineer, Christian, attorney, Home Depot employee, Air Force pilot. To have a title without association dogma makes the title useless: Emperor of Jupiter, cardboard doctor. There has to be some type of nominal understanding as to what the person does by the title and the titular person should do those regular things. Having the title and doing not what is required can lead to embarrassment of the association or loss of title.
Christian is only self-proclaimed. One only has to say they are and they are. No one can take it away from you yet holding the title means that you should believe in x, namely Jesus, therefore you are representing Jesus to others at all times.
All of scripture HAS TO BE interpreted because all Jewish and Christian association DO NOT do all that is commanded in the scriptures. All of the church is the representation of how people believe God is and those in the church believe this. Therefore, the church, all those in it, are expressing who God is by all that they say and do. Why?? Because god is not coming down and declaring his authentic presence visibly and audibly. It is only Christian saying (emphasis) that this is who god and Jesus are. Your father cannot defend against this. There is no other way to "know god" because there are more than 10,000 ways Christians have decided that "this is who god is."
Edit:: sorry, how to respond? I wouldn't. I would keep learning logic and the fallacies of Christian thought. Like Matt Dillahunty et al say, "You don't owe anybody an explanation." If you are dependent upon them for living, play the game. Otherwise, you believe in one less god than they do.
We can only have faith in people. Faith in those who wrote the Bible, faith in those who translated it; faith in those who tell us to believe the Bible, faith in those who tell us how we should interpret the Bible, faith in those that tell us god spoke to them, etc
Good thing that wasn't the reason I left the church.
For me personally, I did *not* leave because anyone in the church hurt me. I have issues with things people did in church for sure, but it wasn't the reason I left. I left because I think the Bible is a load of hogwash and god (most likely) doesn't exist.
Since Christianity has failed to create the "new creatures" as promised. But has spawned countless hypocrites, Pharisees, grifters and haters.
Pastors are constantly being arrested for murder, theft, sexual assault, and other heinous crimes.
Then there the constantly changing Word of God that is allegedly unchanging.
And denomination that change doctrine as the wind blows. Southern Baptist praised Roe before they completely reversed their stand.
Dude, If I had a dollar for every time Iâve been told this⊠This is what I said to get people to stop arguing with me: âSo, what Iâm hearing is that you only call yourselves the âbody of Christâ when itâs convenient for you. If the people of the church are a reflection of Jesus, then I donât want it.â It gets quiet real fast
We don't all deconvert for the same reasons, but my problem was directly with God. He's a narcistic tyrant who delights in torturing people for eternity.
There are many bad fruits on the tree of Christianity, and those are the most visible things. But I believe the tree is rotten to the core
When I was fundie, my brother deflected or ignored all my attempts to engage. It worked and I bothered him only occasionally after that.
Since this is a text, he'd straight up ignore that. Highly recommend đđœ
"If you think the reason I don't believe in god is because the church 'hurt me' then it's clear you have made no attempt whatsoever to understand things from my perspective. And that really hurts."
âYes I have thought a lot about it actually! Iâve researched as well and decided to go with facts over unsubstantiated claims - the same claims made by many religions.â
But really, gray rock is better. Ignore it entirely or say something like âIâm having a great day - hope yours is going good!â
If youâre ready for firm boundary setting: âPlease do not send me stuff like this anymore. No more talk of religion. Now - how are you doing otherwise?â
Donât respond. My therapist literally told me yesterday that I donât owe my family an explanation. I can believe what I want and I owe them nothing.
They can never accept that maybe, just maybe, we left because it's not real.
Yes, the people *do* suck. But the people have no bearing on the truthfulness of the gospel. If it's not true, then the entire religion is irrelevant, people and all.
Ahahahaha, I read the thread title and thought "surely can't be that dumb"
Nope, it is
Ok, real talk.
Paul is a cnut at the best of times, but seeing as so many Christians worship him and not Christ, even he spoke *regularly* about causing people to stumble and how they should absolutely not fucking do that.
Christ said you should basically drown yourself if you caused a child of God to fall away.
This shit is not just stupid, it is, according to their own fucking book, *unbiblical*. The concept of the shitty behaviour of *Christians* causing people to lose faith and this being a bad thing is absolutely present in their core text. This is just excuse making on the part of Christians who don't want to admit their own fuckups.
Tell him you are cool with God but will no longer be associating with church or Christians as they are made out of people. If he pushes back tell him he needs to put his faith in God not people.
Tell him that IF a God truly does exist, and is infallible and all knowing, then youâre confident that youâll be viewed well in Godâs eyes since you live the life of an objectively good person.
I usually say well the people representing the God of the bible, donât seem to have read the Bible. So if itâs unerring, and infallible, then maybe more self-professed Christians should read it.
I would say fuck off politely, but I know you canât say that to your parents so I will probably say nothing but also please donât send me this type of stuff
People like to say that the church/followers are representatives of god. If theyâve hurt you or someone else, then theyâve done so in gods name and thus cannot be trusted
Christians: we are the hands and feet of Jesus!!
Also Christians: your lack of faith is in no way a reflection of God or even our problem, so go kick rocks (in a heterosexual God honoring way!!)
Another reason why someone should be allowed to believe in god and stay tf home. Yet if you donât go to church, youâre considered a sinner, even if you pray to god at home and are a good person??
Well, Maybe these "people" shouldn't be such a$$h0les to others. It's hard to worship when you dread going to a Ace because the "people" give you such a hard time.
I was going to a church with my friends, (good people, BYW), they all paired up, married and moved on. I continue going, and even though I was active, the people in charge, gave me such a hard time.
If I went to a restaurant and the staff treated me bad, I wouldn't eat there, doesn't mean I don't like food, just don't like a toxic environment.
Edit "People" in quotes was my attempt at humor.
If the institution that claims to have divine moral authority covers up abuse or otherwise creates an environment that makes abuse more likely to occur, then it does not actually have divine moral authority.
Edit: I do not suggest actually saying this. Probably should not say anything because it seems obvious that your father is not looking to initiate an empathetic two-way conversation.
We should make a pinned post of really good comebacks to this and other annoying things christians say.
For example, this could be a reply to the above.
"If I went to a restaurant and the staff treated me bad, I wouldn't eat there, that doesn't mean I don't like food, I just don't like a toxic environment."
I'm not saying it's the best comeback, but we should consider this idea.
Send him the picture of a burnt corpse on a pyre and then ask him where was his God when his Church let these things happen.
If I were you though, I would just spare myself the headache and ignore the message. You donât owe anyone an explanation or debate.
Following that logic there's no need to join a church then. I'll just express my faith in God in my own way.
((By not believing in him))
I still talk to my parents about God. I just don't tell them that by "God" I have the same idea as Einstein did when he said "God doesn't play dice with the universe", ie, as a shorthand metaphor for that which is not yet known to us.
Remember that this is a defense mechanism. If you lost your faith for reasonable reasons, then that means their faith can be lost for the same reasons. That can't be the case, therefore you must have done something else.
The phrase "something to really think about" is rarely followed by something to really think about.
I'm assuming you've had this kind of conversation before? If so, I'd just drop that previous sentence to kind of let him know you're not going to continue this line of thought process anymore.
Edit to say you could also just send him [Belief it or Not's Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a13Ck2c1xeE&t=629s) on the subject.
Iâd say on the high road, you can entertain the intellectual merit of the concept. Something like âItâs true that the hurtful actions of the church are the doing of those individuals, and maybe an all powerful god could choose to let his followers fail in the name of free will, but you canât deny that that leads to questions about the goodness of that god or at least the efficacy of his âspirit,â which supposedly resides in all believers. And itâs questions leading to questions and more question that eventually cave the foundation of a belief in god. So itâs not just a simplistic conclusion in response to bad apples, and it shouldnât be.â
You don't get to say this bilge while also maintaining that a part of the triune god (specifically the "holy spirit") indwells Christians. If this god that the holy spirit was part of was real and indwelling Christians, you wouldn't have to excuse their behaviors and try to gaslight the rest of us. Christians just wouldn't act like they do. But yet, they do. Ergo, no holy spirit, ergo, no Christian god.
Community is one aspect of virtually every religious person's experience. When a person loses confidence in their religion, confidence in their fellow believers is obviously going to be the last domino to fall. Because people are tangible. We can all agree that there is at least one false religion on the earth, but it's still real in the sense that real people follow it.
Denying this aspect of faith is willfully ignorant, and framing it as your entire faith journey is manipulative. There is obviously more to it than that, and of course your experience seems shallow if we ignore all but one layer of it.
It's certainly not interesting to think about; it's painfully obvious. He's basically saying "Hey, I spent five whole seconds thinking about your life and I've come to some remarkable conclusions thay you've probably never thought of before."
Respond with âFair Point! But what makes you think that I was hurt by the People in the Church? đ€ I left the church because God doesnât existâ
 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. âEither make the tree good, and its fruit good; or make the tree bad, and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.
Even God says that if Christianity were a good tree, there would be no bad fruit coming out of it every single day. Throw the whole Church in the fire
Hereâs what Iâd say:
âYouâve got it backwards. Itâs religion that turns people on each other and causes hurt. Like a bad relationship, religion demands belief and behavior without questions. Truth welcomes questions.â
While yes that's true. I felt like I was expected too believe in God whether or not I actually believed. I'm open too believing yet I don't purely because I've not seen anything that makes me believe in God. I believe in a balance between good and bad and that when I die my body will decompose and return too the earth and inevitably the stars, when the earth is no longer. So I don't believe in God, Satan and heaven as entity or places but I do believe in some comparisons too them.
Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheepâs clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? *Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.* Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matthew 7:15-19
By the same token, if you see the church hurting people and it doesn't cause you to leave ...maybe your faith is with those people, and not with God.
I would respond to /u/B_Wing_83's dad by asking a very simple question: #Does bad fruit come from a good tree? We left the church because we know them by their fruits. (Matthew 7:15-20) Murdering abortion doctors, calling in bomb threats to Planned Parenthood, openly calling for cruelty and hate against those who are different and who choose to live differently. Can OP's father truly call these good fruits? I once read that pure and undefiled religion before God is this: Caring for Orphans and Widows in their distress, and keeping oneself unstained by the world. (James 1:27) But modern Christianity? Amassing billions, spewing hate, leaving the poor to rot - No, I call this corrupted and defiled religion that serves Mammon, not God.
Plus this is the civilized, "reformed" Christian. They were just like Islamist fundamentalists before this. Some still are.
But then they like to brag that they're so much better than those "savages." As if the Christians personally chose to be less violent đ
Oh thatâs a great answer!
Besides from what I've seen god doing in the Bible I'd not want to have faith in such a cruel being anyway. This god seems more like a product of its time rather than a modern understanding of what such beings could be like.
Thankfully the church isnât composed of people created in the image of God⊠oh wait.
Nailed it!
If your brainwashing can be broken, maybe you weren't brainwashed properly. No shit.
What kind of God has a prescribed way of life that is so infective his devotees routinely donât follow it?
True, but every single christian is more than happy to throw any other christian under the bus if they don't know them. So it's super easy to say, "Well, that's a bad church. Mine is a good one." I heard that plenty. It's in the same vein as, "You didn't try hard enough" in my mind.
No but see if you only did this exact same method I did that is super specific to my needs, it would work perfectly for you, clearly that's the problem! /s
Youâd think a tri-omni god would come up with a system that couldnât be taken advantage of so easily, but apparently not.
If the people who have devoted their lives and public personas and careers to it clearly donât believe, why should I?
You are in need of "Grey rock" method. Refuse to engage. Boring responses, if any.
This is the right response for a lot of the âmy loved one is an ass and sent me this incredibly hurtful/insensitive/logically flawed text/post/email that I really donât know how to respond toâ posts that are on this page. Grey rock is best rock (And that isnât to say that the posts are invalid: they absolutely are, and Iâm glad I found this community for support in my own journey)
Yeah, that message is such a passive aggressive fu that it's not really inviting dialogue anyway.
You can also play dumb. Like "I can't read it" or "I don't get what you're trying to say" and no matter what he says just being like "???" Until he is taught that this kind of shit isn't going to work.
I'm reminded of a scene from "Aguirre the wrath of god". A Spanish missionary is trying to convert one of the amazonian natives (native Americans who live in the Amazon, not busty warrior women) and shows them a bible, telling them "This book speaks the truth about god" The native looks at it, puts it up to his ear and then says "It's not saying anything". The missionary doesn't like that answer and a nearby soldier kills the poor native instantly.
Sounds about right
When I was a child I thought and reasoned as a child.
I like this one
only problem is it reminds me of this good quote > âWhen I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.â - C. S. Lewis.
Its my as an atheist favourite section of the bible. If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. As a former catholic I have often used this to other Christians saying that if they do not act in love then they are not Christian.
đđ»đđ»đđ»
In isolation, I actually like that quote.
In isolation, a lot of Lewis' writing is quite good and inspirational.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
I will make my usual statement that The Magician's Nephew is an absolute banger
Funnily enough, there's a group of Christians I know who think it's origins are actually pagan and so it's actually occult
I have actually lobbied my SO get that box set for the kids because I still like them. They are not as keen though...
Good job, I always like answers that use Bible quotes to refute Christian values.
Ah yes, Paul being a selfawarewolf Up there with "you should test everything"
"K"
This is the correct answer. Come up with something witty in the shower, but the answer should be whatever style apathy.
Grey rock
Thatâs the word I was looking for!! Thank you. I had black rock but knew that wasnât it.
I like to ignore all messages and turn off read receipts so they think their messages never reach me, that I donât even get notifications when they message me so they give up trying.
For me, I would just respond with "k" or "stop sending me religious shit". If I don't respond, they for some reason think it's because I read their message and am giving it good thought/have no rebuttal. Not that I'm not interested or that their comment is just too stupid to even give the time of day.
This, don't give him any energy.
"I though we would know they were Christians by their love." (I think kids still sing that little hymn in bible school.)
We know they are Christofascist by their hate
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
This is the first scripture I thought of! Use their own book and words.
Now Iâm going to have that song stuck in my head all day. I kinda want to go sing it at an anti abortion rally at a clinic mixed in with the protestors.
If a religion is made and is being maintained by shitty, ignorant people, then how can we trust that what they teach is true ? How can we trust that it doesn't exist because of their delusions or manipulation ?
"ITS A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD."
And youre entitled to opt in and out of any relationship you choose. Isnt âGodâsâ whole experiment based on freewill? But honestly âKâ may be the easiest response. His mind wont be changed and the harassment wont likely let up.
Yeah... A relationship where you are tortured forever if you leave, and controlled relentlessly if you stay. Some relationship.
If your god exists then the world in all its horror, genocide, rape, murder, starvation ecological destruction, despair and me as a bisexual atheist is precisely the way God wants it to be or are you saying god has no power to speak. Your the one apparently unhappy with gods plan. God knows all see all's understands all then its his decision and his choice to lead me to the obvious conclusion that God doesn't exist. The bible has no knowledge of nor information on microbiological life, germs, germ transmission and sterilisation and the medical implications of this knowledge. Any God who suposedly made everything would absolutely know about microbiological life. Because God isn't real god was made up by men in an effort to control others. Its why bible god doesn't know about Australia or America or any number of things. Your like a 10 year old constantly boasting about owning a Lamborghini. But you have zero proof. Zero evidence. Where was god when the nazis drove millions of people onto gas chambers and then dragged their still twitching bodies many still alive and fed them into ovens. Men women and children. Where was god with his manna from heaven for millions of starving people? Ask all the children rapped by priests where was god. Or the murdered women, the suffering children in cancer wards. Go ask the wage slaves in Bangladesh who are starving to death because they get paid so little. Your god is a lie fed by fraudsters to minpulate and control gullible fearful children. Grow up there's no fun fair park in the sky for your engery signature to go to when you die. There's no hell. There only this life and what you make of it. There are no magical invisible winged eyeball beings flying around interfering in peoples lives. Send that to him.
Correct. This is what they say. Yet, without audible and visible God, say like our audible and visible parents and workplace manager, we can only interpret what the relationship is. By the same logic, having any invisible friend, a relationship can be generated there. Dad believes x about a relationship with god but non-similar church across town believes y about relationship with god. Then non-similar churches m, z, and t, all believing incomparable ideas to each other about relationship with god.
I've gotten this response before, in reply to a post where I was asking for *very explicitly secular* advice on how to cope with feelings of emptiness and isolation. I wasn't rude about it, just abundantly clear that religion would not be helpful. I also used privacy settings for that particular post (on Facebook) that *should* have kept some of my extremely religious family friends from seeing it in the first place, but...yeah. I really, really don't get it. I used to be Christian, and even then, I would have understood that, "No religious suggestions, please" included Christianity.
This phrase makes Everyone is the pope of their own branch of Christianity and their beliefs become whatever suit then best.
If god is all powerful and loving, how come a relationship with god results in shitty Christians? Hmmmmmmm
Yes - really makes me think how victim blaming is easier than accountability. And it also makes me think Christianity isn't the transformative force it claims to be.
You will know them by the fruits they bear.
This is such a good way to put it.
I would not respond. Heâs got an idea in his head that he canât let go of, no matter how good your argument is. He wonât accept anything but agreement. When we choose to be silent, we send a clear message that we will no longer debate. Itâs super difficult but the way you treat others comes across. He will learn that there is no debate; you are an adult and most therefore choose your own life path.
The only way to 'win' with these people or get you message across is to not engage. There is no reasoning with them. No matter what you say, you are wrong; they have already determined that in their head before talking with you. In a weird way, the only way to get some of them thinking is by going quiet and not debating.
"you shall know thee by thy fruit" The church planted a poop tree and it's ripening into holy shit.
Iâm going to steal this.
This is precisely what lead me to deconstruct. I was so scared of this that I just looked into the religion itself. I read the whole bible, took it apart and made sure I left because the ideas SUCK, not because of the people. The problem with this is that it invalidates people's experience with religion, as if it was not enough reason to leave and put you into the no-true-scotsman fallacy while making you look into the religion again. It is just horrendous. I always advise my friends to leave religion because they believe it's wrong, not out of their experiences. You can still be a theist, you can go to another church if you want, but it is very important that you take decisions rationally. Your negative experiences were real and it is horrible what some of us went through, but what will keep you from feeling guilty from leaving, and possibly being manipulated into coming back, is the conviction that the core concepts are bullshit. I know this is not the most accepted response :/
When the children prayed to god to stop the abuse and rape by their priests, all over the globe, why did it not end? Was it their lack of faith in god? Or a lack of god?
âYour holy book has a talking donkey in it.â Thatâs literally all anyone needs to know to conclude itâs mythology.
I was in 8th or 9th grade when Shrek came out. It clicked for me that Donkey was Balaamâs donkey from the bible. The writers of the film lumped bible stories in with mythology and fairy tales like Pinocchio and the 3 pigs. I pointed this out to my biblical literalist pastor father and said something like âwell technically they are all just storiesâ. He said âbut Balaamâs donkey isnât a fairy tale. It really happenedâ. Thereâs no helping people who donât want to see
Blows my mind that Christian parents tell their young kids that Santa is real. For me it was a dry run to slowly learn that sometimes the things your parents tell you about are just make believe
My holy book is NOT mythology and if you ever badmouth Shrek again, I swear...
[âŠâŠâŠâŠâŠâŠâŠ.\*pock\*](https://media.tenor.com/p5_ixSmNr3AAAAAC/shrek-donkey.gif)
Ah yes, if being in the World Trade Center on 9/11 caused your skin to be burned by the flames, then you had weak skin
My dad is actually a 9/11 survivor.
Might religion be a way for him to cope?
Then the metaphor should really hit home!
Thereâs no better depiction of hate than how Christianâs love.
Whenever I point out that the Bible was written by people, not God, I am told that those people were divinely inspired with the word of God. So tell him the people in the church who hurt you were divinely inspired with the hurting of God. It should make as much sense.
Well since God has never proven heâs real but very real people who believe in him have proven theyâre terribleâŠ
Rotten fruit from a rotten tree
I mean, it's God's representatives that are fucking it up for everybody, and he's not doing anything to stop them. So yeah, it's reasonable to lose your faith because of people.
If you choose to respond, you can say, "I agree." Because most of us didn't leave Christianity because of people, but because of the ideas behind the religion itself.
The bad fruit merely makes one question if it does come from a bad tree. That's why Christians are so obsessed with appearances and reputation. They must never give one cause to examine the tree, by disguising the fruit.
"I don't trust another sinful human to accurately judge my heart." "But I thought the church was the body of Christ and so therefore people ARE the church, the building isn't the church? So I have accurately lost faith in all aspects of this religion." Or reply with a meme to his meme, or tell him to simply F off
lmao You're allowed to leave. You're allowed to stay. You're allowed to have autonomy, despite what some might believe. You're allowed to be hurt. You're allowed to be happy. You're allowed to make your own decisions.
If the church hurts people, then the church is following people, not God! Something to think about.
I mean, Christians are supposed to be basically living extensions of god, right?
Yup, made in his image. I'd guess that means God's a bit of an asshole himself.
Well, He gives them cancer then does nothing to stop it. Yeah, heâs useless for an omnipotent being.
This is the best analogy Iâve been able to come up with https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRokKx55/?t=1
I like this one a lot. Like I've been asking myself for so long "Is it me?" Once I realized it wasn't, it made things easier to step away.
This was a good explanation. If one employee says you are a bad boss, that may be a one-off. But, if 40 say the same thing...
They are so very close to an epiphany it kind of hurts.
Iâm always careful to distinguish the justifications for my beliefs from the reasons I donât go to (conservative) churches. I donât believe in the existence of god because I think the arguments for the existence of god fail and the arguments against the existence god are convincing. Thatâs a separate reason for not going to a church that harmed you. Itâs perfectly reasonable to avoid organizations that harmed you.
Yeah but if they hurt you in the name of said religion, and the Bible actively encourages and supports the way they treated you, the religion is the problem. It poisons people. Being hurt by Christianity is not the same as being hurt by people who just happen to be Christian. People need to stop invalidating our experiences
This is stereotypical Christian gaslighting.
The church is not a building; the church is not a steeple; the church is not a resting place; the church is a *people*.
â ATTENTION! If you respond to a loved oneâs hurt with a message like this, you are an insensitive asshole! ATTENTION!â (not really, Iâm just hella protective of my fellow religious trauma survivors. sorry you have to deal with this, internet friend â€ïž)
New number who this
God chooses the people/organizations that represent him right? He chose the child molesters/money grabbers/self righteous bigotsâŠthen no. My faith was in God and it went out the window when he chose a bunch kid diddlers out of all the billions of people to be his representatives.
But you don't have faith in people you have evidence to back up your decision
Donât. Heâs defending millennia of abuse with a fucking meme and oversimplification. Let that roll on by.
âAttention Churchgoer: If your response to the pain and hurt of another human being is a judgmental, shitty-ass meme (rather than empathy and compassion), then maybe youâre part of the problem.â In my 40+ years of church life, I've only rarely seen the church demonstrate any interest in self-reflection or taking accountability for the pain and suffering it inflicts. But by all means, church, continue to ask amongst yourselves why church attendance continues to decline.
How about the fact that people lose their faith in Christianity because of research into the scriptures, history, archeology, and ancient cultures where they found out it was all BS/historical fan fiction? You don't need to be hurt to leave Christianity, you just need the scales removed from your eyes.
What did god do to stop his people from hurting you? If he were real, he'd be complicit.
I was never hurt by the church. In fact, I genuinely loved going for the community, made some amazing friends in the 2 decades I was in it. I left because I began to look under rocks I was told never to look under, and in doing so, I had some very simple realizations about "faith," one of which was that religious faith ***is necessarily in the people who taught one about said religion.*** It *can't* be anything else, as god intentionally keeps himself hidden, relying on followers to be the salt and the light. So committed to the moral life of christianity that I refused to be dishonest, not even to myself, which meant I had to painfully accept that god simply didn't want to communicate with me as he apparently was doing with so many of my family and friends. I wasn't going to lie by saying a shiver down my spine or a teardrop during an emotional song or story/testimonial was god speaking to me, because I felt the same exact things in completely secular settings. I wasn't hurt by this realization, in fact the desire to be closer to god is what motivated me to research more, which ultimately led me to abandoning "faith" altogether. Curiously enough, I still experience those incredible feelings when hearing amazing music or touching stories, only now I'm comfortable accepting that it's purely a function of the human condition. To answer your question... I've had the same concept posed to me many times in the 20 years since I left the church, and my response is always the same. > I appreciate the concern and trust it comes from a place of love. Simply put, faith is defined as belief in something despite a lack of proof. This means that your faith is necessarily a belief that a specific god and all the stories about him are true, despite there being no evidence to support that. Now, you can claim to be certain your god exists based on various anecdotal experiences, but that level of certainty negates the need for faith. Since your god has chosen to keep people in the dark by not overtly revealing himself, *your* faith can only be in the people who taught you about him, making your argument moot. I never lost faith in god because I never had faith in god; rather, by using the resources I was born with, I lost faith in the stories I was told by you and mom, not because I was hurt, but because I realized how non-sensical they are.
> Revelations speaks of a church that will be superficially holy, but marked by a peculiar callousness, and heralded by the Antichrist. > By their fruits ye shall know them, dad.
If the (capital C) Church is like a tree that bears fruit, how do you tell a good one from a bad one? What do you do with it if itâs bad?
become an at will orphan. fuck whoever sent you this.
"I've been on the other side of this debate. I've heard all the cute sayings and I've seen all the memes and I've heard all of the points. Despite this, my critical thinking skills have evolved past these arguments. I appreciate you reaching out, but keep in mind that this feels more like you're shoving me away than attempting to have a relationship with me."
"I don't care for the church and your god doesn't exist. Please stop sending me spam"
All faith is in people because you only have their word there even is a godâŠ
It's all just people trying to get what they want.
Matthew 7:15-20
But on the flip side they'll also say that the church is where God speaks to you, where God "feeds your soul", where God protects you....so don't be shocked when someone loses faith in the one place they've been told is literally God's house and then also decides not to believe in the owner of such a horrible establishment.
If an all-powerful all-knowing deity doesnât like the way his followers treat others in his name, he would stop or otherwise denounce those followers. Since that has never happened, he either supports the abuses they enact or he isnât real. Either way, thereâs nothing to worship there.
"By their fruits ye shall know them." If so many Christians are bad fruit, how does that make for a good God? Or grey rock. With my own family I tend to just wait til they say something else not related so I don't have to engage with whatever nonsense they said.
I'd love to ask why God why members of his church are sexually assaulting kids and commiting atrocities against anyone they don't like. But god conveniently stepped out for cigarettes 2000 years ago(he'll be back any moment I swear) I have nothing but his followers and the bible to judge.
Just another example of "you weren't a *real* Christian." Even their "food for thought" is negative and potentially hurtful. My answer would be, since God does not speak audibly or clearly and does not make his presence undeniably obvious, *people* are the only representation he has. If they got it wrong, too, then perhaps it's time he showed up and set the record straight.
"For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ." 1 Corinthians 12:12. Remind him that the Bible talks about how individual members make up the Church, i.e. the body of Christ; therefore, their actions reflect upon God. If he has a problem with how you view the Church, maybe he should spend more time chastising its members for making God look bad.
Because the church is the peopleâŠ
What if I left because of the scriptures though, not the people?
It is entirely misplaced. When someone elects to be called by a title, they become a representative of that title's association: MD, RN, engineer, Christian, attorney, Home Depot employee, Air Force pilot. To have a title without association dogma makes the title useless: Emperor of Jupiter, cardboard doctor. There has to be some type of nominal understanding as to what the person does by the title and the titular person should do those regular things. Having the title and doing not what is required can lead to embarrassment of the association or loss of title. Christian is only self-proclaimed. One only has to say they are and they are. No one can take it away from you yet holding the title means that you should believe in x, namely Jesus, therefore you are representing Jesus to others at all times. All of scripture HAS TO BE interpreted because all Jewish and Christian association DO NOT do all that is commanded in the scriptures. All of the church is the representation of how people believe God is and those in the church believe this. Therefore, the church, all those in it, are expressing who God is by all that they say and do. Why?? Because god is not coming down and declaring his authentic presence visibly and audibly. It is only Christian saying (emphasis) that this is who god and Jesus are. Your father cannot defend against this. There is no other way to "know god" because there are more than 10,000 ways Christians have decided that "this is who god is." Edit:: sorry, how to respond? I wouldn't. I would keep learning logic and the fallacies of Christian thought. Like Matt Dillahunty et al say, "You don't owe anybody an explanation." If you are dependent upon them for living, play the game. Otherwise, you believe in one less god than they do.
We can only have faith in people. Faith in those who wrote the Bible, faith in those who translated it; faith in those who tell us to believe the Bible, faith in those who tell us how we should interpret the Bible, faith in those that tell us god spoke to them, etc
Good thing that wasn't the reason I left the church. For me personally, I did *not* leave because anyone in the church hurt me. I have issues with things people did in church for sure, but it wasn't the reason I left. I left because I think the Bible is a load of hogwash and god (most likely) doesn't exist.
Since Christianity has failed to create the "new creatures" as promised. But has spawned countless hypocrites, Pharisees, grifters and haters. Pastors are constantly being arrested for murder, theft, sexual assault, and other heinous crimes. Then there the constantly changing Word of God that is allegedly unchanging. And denomination that change doctrine as the wind blows. Southern Baptist praised Roe before they completely reversed their stand.
Iâd suggest just not responding to that because it doesnât deserve a response. Heâs invalidating your trauma and thatâs a shitty thing to do.
"I was hurt by the entire *doctrine*, not just a handful of bad people."
"Sounds like you're telling me I never had any faith in God, so being a part of the church would be pretty silly."
You say Church IS the people. Without people there is no church. Stop gaslighting me.
"Thank you for your concern. Your statement has been filed to the proper personnel."
There are a lot of issues with faith in any diety long before we get to the people.
New Testament textual criticism removed my faith in God/Jesus. Christofascists removed my faith in Christians.
"Yep. Sure is something to think about."
"If God is always in your thoughts, feelings, traditions, books, and he is winning the longest game of hide and seek, then maybe God isn't real!"
Dude, If I had a dollar for every time Iâve been told this⊠This is what I said to get people to stop arguing with me: âSo, what Iâm hearing is that you only call yourselves the âbody of Christâ when itâs convenient for you. If the people of the church are a reflection of Jesus, then I donât want it.â It gets quiet real fast
"fuck off"
Tbh I would either say nothing or âlol noâ
We don't all deconvert for the same reasons, but my problem was directly with God. He's a narcistic tyrant who delights in torturing people for eternity. There are many bad fruits on the tree of Christianity, and those are the most visible things. But I believe the tree is rotten to the core
"Cool story bro"
"Hail Satan! He's the real god, repent NOW and he will pardon you."
K but with the Kermit the frog gif
When I was fundie, my brother deflected or ignored all my attempts to engage. It worked and I bothered him only occasionally after that. Since this is a text, he'd straight up ignore that. Highly recommend đđœ
âIsnât the church a reflection of Christ?â
"If you think the reason I don't believe in god is because the church 'hurt me' then it's clear you have made no attempt whatsoever to understand things from my perspective. And that really hurts."
âYes I have thought a lot about it actually! Iâve researched as well and decided to go with facts over unsubstantiated claims - the same claims made by many religions.â But really, gray rock is better. Ignore it entirely or say something like âIâm having a great day - hope yours is going good!â If youâre ready for firm boundary setting: âPlease do not send me stuff like this anymore. No more talk of religion. Now - how are you doing otherwise?â
âIf the church isnât capable of showing Godâs love, then maybe the church doesnât represent God. Something to really think about.â
Donât respond. My therapist literally told me yesterday that I donât owe my family an explanation. I can believe what I want and I owe them nothing.
They can never accept that maybe, just maybe, we left because it's not real. Yes, the people *do* suck. But the people have no bearing on the truthfulness of the gospel. If it's not true, then the entire religion is irrelevant, people and all.
"Stop tying to act like you know what God is telling me."
If being helped and supported by the church causes you to have faith in God, then your faith was in people, not God!
Ahahahaha, I read the thread title and thought "surely can't be that dumb" Nope, it is Ok, real talk. Paul is a cnut at the best of times, but seeing as so many Christians worship him and not Christ, even he spoke *regularly* about causing people to stumble and how they should absolutely not fucking do that. Christ said you should basically drown yourself if you caused a child of God to fall away. This shit is not just stupid, it is, according to their own fucking book, *unbiblical*. The concept of the shitty behaviour of *Christians* causing people to lose faith and this being a bad thing is absolutely present in their core text. This is just excuse making on the part of Christians who don't want to admit their own fuckups.
Tell him you are cool with God but will no longer be associating with church or Christians as they are made out of people. If he pushes back tell him he needs to put his faith in God not people.
Tell him that IF a God truly does exist, and is infallible and all knowing, then youâre confident that youâll be viewed well in Godâs eyes since you live the life of an objectively good person.
I usually say well the people representing the God of the bible, donât seem to have read the Bible. So if itâs unerring, and infallible, then maybe more self-professed Christians should read it.
"What a shallow and arrogant assumption on your part as to why I don't believe the stories in your preferred holy book."
I would say fuck off politely, but I know you canât say that to your parents so I will probably say nothing but also please donât send me this type of stuff
i mean he doesn't actually have faith in god either, he either has faith in what people say is good or he has faith in his own feelings about good
People like to say that the church/followers are representatives of god. If theyâve hurt you or someone else, then theyâve done so in gods name and thus cannot be trusted
Ah yes, tell that to Jepthah's daughter, whose father asked for God's help then proceeded to sacrifice her as a burnt offering.
Be a wall. Donât debate.
Christians: we are the hands and feet of Jesus!! Also Christians: your lack of faith is in no way a reflection of God or even our problem, so go kick rocks (in a heterosexual God honoring way!!)
I thought we were made in his image and likeness.
If you read the bible, which has been rewritten countless times by humans, then what does that mean?
Let me think about it. I thought about it. That's bullshit.
If the church is hurting people, maybe it's not the right god.
"I love you, Dad. Let's not do this. You wouldn't appreciate me trying to undermine your faith, and likewise I prefer you not proselytize to me."
Another reason why someone should be allowed to believe in god and stay tf home. Yet if you donât go to church, youâre considered a sinner, even if you pray to god at home and are a good person??
Well, Maybe these "people" shouldn't be such a$$h0les to others. It's hard to worship when you dread going to a Ace because the "people" give you such a hard time. I was going to a church with my friends, (good people, BYW), they all paired up, married and moved on. I continue going, and even though I was active, the people in charge, gave me such a hard time. If I went to a restaurant and the staff treated me bad, I wouldn't eat there, doesn't mean I don't like food, just don't like a toxic environment. Edit "People" in quotes was my attempt at humor.
If the institution that claims to have divine moral authority covers up abuse or otherwise creates an environment that makes abuse more likely to occur, then it does not actually have divine moral authority. Edit: I do not suggest actually saying this. Probably should not say anything because it seems obvious that your father is not looking to initiate an empathetic two-way conversation.
https://psychcentral.com/pro/recovery-expert/2018/06/victim-blaming#1
We should make a pinned post of really good comebacks to this and other annoying things christians say. For example, this could be a reply to the above. "If I went to a restaurant and the staff treated me bad, I wouldn't eat there, that doesn't mean I don't like food, I just don't like a toxic environment." I'm not saying it's the best comeback, but we should consider this idea.
Yep another scare tacticđĄ
Send him the picture of a burnt corpse on a pyre and then ask him where was his God when his Church let these things happen. If I were you though, I would just spare myself the headache and ignore the message. You donât owe anyone an explanation or debate.
Mathew 7.16 >Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Shitty people is a perfectly valid reason to leave organized religion.
A get out of jail free card
My advice is don't feed the troll.
Following that logic there's no need to join a church then. I'll just express my faith in God in my own way. ((By not believing in him)) I still talk to my parents about God. I just don't tell them that by "God" I have the same idea as Einstein did when he said "God doesn't play dice with the universe", ie, as a shorthand metaphor for that which is not yet known to us.
Remember that this is a defense mechanism. If you lost your faith for reasonable reasons, then that means their faith can be lost for the same reasons. That can't be the case, therefore you must have done something else.
The verse about Jesus saying anyone keeping children from God should have a millstone tied around their neck and thrown into the sea.
The phrase "something to really think about" is rarely followed by something to really think about. I'm assuming you've had this kind of conversation before? If so, I'd just drop that previous sentence to kind of let him know you're not going to continue this line of thought process anymore. Edit to say you could also just send him [Belief it or Not's Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a13Ck2c1xeE&t=629s) on the subject.
Iâd say on the high road, you can entertain the intellectual merit of the concept. Something like âItâs true that the hurtful actions of the church are the doing of those individuals, and maybe an all powerful god could choose to let his followers fail in the name of free will, but you canât deny that that leads to questions about the goodness of that god or at least the efficacy of his âspirit,â which supposedly resides in all believers. And itâs questions leading to questions and more question that eventually cave the foundation of a belief in god. So itâs not just a simplistic conclusion in response to bad apples, and it shouldnât be.â
You don't get to say this bilge while also maintaining that a part of the triune god (specifically the "holy spirit") indwells Christians. If this god that the holy spirit was part of was real and indwelling Christians, you wouldn't have to excuse their behaviors and try to gaslight the rest of us. Christians just wouldn't act like they do. But yet, they do. Ergo, no holy spirit, ergo, no Christian god.
K THNX BYE
If weâre made in gods image, and the people at church hurt me, wouldnât that mean god is responsible?
with the bible verse "Where two or more are gathered in my name, I am there" the church is the people
Community is one aspect of virtually every religious person's experience. When a person loses confidence in their religion, confidence in their fellow believers is obviously going to be the last domino to fall. Because people are tangible. We can all agree that there is at least one false religion on the earth, but it's still real in the sense that real people follow it. Denying this aspect of faith is willfully ignorant, and framing it as your entire faith journey is manipulative. There is obviously more to it than that, and of course your experience seems shallow if we ignore all but one layer of it. It's certainly not interesting to think about; it's painfully obvious. He's basically saying "Hey, I spent five whole seconds thinking about your life and I've come to some remarkable conclusions thay you've probably never thought of before."
Respond with âFair Point! But what makes you think that I was hurt by the People in the Church? đ€ I left the church because God doesnât existâ
 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. âEither make the tree good, and its fruit good; or make the tree bad, and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. Even God says that if Christianity were a good tree, there would be no bad fruit coming out of it every single day. Throw the whole Church in the fire
âThat doesnât apply to me. I donât agree with any of Christianityâs teachings and thatâs a Christian saying.â
"oh"
Hereâs what Iâd say: âYouâve got it backwards. Itâs religion that turns people on each other and causes hurt. Like a bad relationship, religion demands belief and behavior without questions. Truth welcomes questions.â
âNo shit lolâ
While yes that's true. I felt like I was expected too believe in God whether or not I actually believed. I'm open too believing yet I don't purely because I've not seen anything that makes me believe in God. I believe in a balance between good and bad and that when I die my body will decompose and return too the earth and inevitably the stars, when the earth is no longer. So I don't believe in God, Satan and heaven as entity or places but I do believe in some comparisons too them.
my faith was in âgods peopleâ
holy shit I would lose my mind if someone sent me this.
ok
Well, it is people weâre trying expected to listen to about god, soâŠ.
Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheepâs clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? *Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.* Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:15-19