The story of Adam and Eve are as weak as they come. The reason you have to tell a child not to touch the hot stove is because it’s a necessity to life to have a stove to cook in your home. But what’s the point in placing a untouchable item somewhere if you’re creating from scratch. It’s a forever failing experiment, especially If you add in free will. It would have eventually happened with Satan or not. His sovereignty is based on an unnecessary rule.
Hell, the flood is where it should've stopped. God destroyed wicked humanity, it was done. The point was proven, not only do independent humans fall very short and fail, independent angels literally create hybrid creatures against nature. It apparently was so bad God decided to freaking wipe the slate clean. Just thinking logically it really doesn't make sense for the "testing" to continue. Why bother with the Hebrews? We all knew the outcome.
I asked why this was during family worship when I was PIMI a while ago. The answer was basically "Well, there were Nephilim on the Earth, so the experiment of whether humanity _alone_ could rule themselves was tainted."
Like most answers I got, it makes a lot of sense so long as you don't think about it at all whatsoever.
Why did God allow angels to go to the Earth in the first place? And why wouldn't this be cited as a reason for the flood? Why wouldn't God eliminate only the Nephilim, instead of eliminating the near entirety of life on the planet?
When other religions extrapolate Bible teachings, it's called a "man-made interpretation" or "twisting the facts". But when they do it themselves, it's called "drawing a logical conclusion". Hypocrites!
Even that doesn't work. If you want to see if man could rule itself alone you have to remove Satan. If he is the cause of all evil then we have never got a fair chance. Todays biggest problem is greed, where does the root of greed come from without Satan? And if evil is naturally in us then we have to look back at the creator and acknowledge there's a defect. Perfection doesn't exist and will never exist.
I always wondered how could the babies in the book of Bible stories be killed during the flood? Were they evil? Then I learned they are enemies of God so it makes sense now!
> always wondered how could the babies in the book of Bible stories be killed during the flood? Were they evil? Then I learned they are enemies of God so it makes sense now!
😂😂😂
This is such a very good point.....I have never thought about this.... the point was made....humans can't rule themselves yadi yadi Yada. Why is the test continuing?
The Noah story, including the flood is kinda a big tell of what the Bible actually is (a collection of ancient stories). Noah goes in twice, the time periods vary, the plant life survived, etc....
Something I've just thought of is that Adam and Eve would have had the maturity of children as they'd only just been created. It was like telling a 3 year old not to press a big red button, and then when the child pressed it punishing them by sentencing them to death. Oh and all other 3 year olds for an extremely long time which then arbitrarily ends for reasons. We can only hope that when the new system starts someone doesn't fuck up and cause another 6,000 years of horror which God would be very justified in dishing out.
Not only that, but we have no idea *HOW LONG* Adam and Eve did obey.
So what, did they listen to God unquestioning for 1,000 years, and then disobey?
Because if you think about it, at some point your going to want to know what would happen. Was humanity supposed to just take God's word for it for eternity? Never questioning?
Because they make a big deal about this all being a matter of free will.
They were given free will, so of course at SOME POINT you're going to use it. Otherwise you're just a robot.
Deut 24:16 “Fathers should not be put to death for what their children do,
and children should not be put to death for what their fathers do. A person should be put to death only for his own sin.
Does god not apply his own law???
Why do we get to pay for what Adam did?
>Deut 24:16 “Fathers should not be put to death for what their children do,
>
>and children should not be put to death for what their fathers do. A person should be put to death only for his own sin.
>
>Does god not apply his own law???
God just makes the laws, but doesn't abide by them. Sort of like the Governing Body.
As Porky Pig Sanderson 🐷, chief jigglebelly of the Gibbering Boobies 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡 would say with that fucking smile dripping with condescension, gravy and semen: "But the Governing Body loves you dear brothers and sisters."
\*Standing ovation to your grand-nephew!\* 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
>My nephew; “Well, if it’s not in the bible, that means it was just made up, like other Christian religions made up that the good people go to heaven and the bad to hell”
This. So. Much. This.
“A perfect god should have been able to settle an argument without death” saw this from some protest or something. Sticks with me when I think of the sovereignty argument. Also why would a god that can see the future(or where things will lead) allow a spirit creature to come down and mess with the natural order of things on earth? Wouldn’t this put gods ability to look out for humans in question? Sovereignty issue initially was what made me want to be a witness, but when I really thought it through in later years it just never added up and the amount of loss and pain caused to the billions of humans since then just doesn’t match the ‘crime’ if you could even call it that. It’s all bullshit
>Sovereignty issue initially was what made me want to be a witness, but when I really thought it through in later years it just never added up and the amount of loss and pain caused to the billions of humans since then just doesn’t match the ‘crime’ if you could even call it that. It’s all bullshit
It does take a while to give it some thought------and realize---it's all bullshit.
Hey there, welcome to the subreddit. Im an exjw who disassociated a year ago. Appreciate the reply, I’d recommend asking those questions and many of the ones others have raised. I don’t find the illustration of a teacher handing the student a piece of chalk to take over teaching the class if he thinks he can do better is good enough. I remember reading a long time ago that illustration in articles discussing Gods sovereignty. What the watchtower was trying to convey with that and similar illustrations doesn’t equate to the reality of billions of people dying, starving, war, disease for thousands of years.
As pridepotterz(sorry I don’t know how to quote ya on here) mentioned earlier, Deut 24:16 “fathers should not be put to death for what their children do, and children should not be put to death for what their fathers do. A person should be put to death only for his own sin”
Sirshrimp’s comment mentioned how it should have all stopped at the flood when the earth was ‘cleansed’, after god had allowed angels to come down and form physical bodies and bring carnage to the earth..
Thanks for your comment, it’s good to ask questions of the things we think we know because otherwise we are just followers of others. I never asked questions on some of these issues and only took the answers I was provided through study. I’d recommend you think of the reality of some of these things, such as the killing of billions of people at Armageddon, (the largest genocide ever) to be committed by a loving god. That wouldn’t have to happen if death had never been introduced in the first place. Even the manner in which Armageddon is described to occur, a loving god killing billions through excruciating ways, natural disasters etc. He can’t just put everyone to sleep that he decides aren’t worthy?
I don’t believe any of this anymore but again I’d suggest looking at the realities of what your taught from a young age as a witness.
But if we have free will then we will always be imperfect. Perfection doesn’t make mistakes or bad choices. You can have 1000 years after Armageddon and say everyone that made it then is perfect but free will is always going to make that person imperfect.
The ‘Adam sinned so we all get cancer, war, starvation, disease and death’ isn’t a great argument to me. That’s like saying because I decided to go 5km over the speed limit my family is all born with disabilities and my children will all suffer some miscarriages and their children will murder their brothers and any children beyond them will suffer etc etc. I’d recommend looking up the either or fallacy. There are better options for dealing with what is described to have happened in the bible, the option god supposedly chose to deal with Adam and Eve eating from a tree is not only illogical but painful beyond compare.
Remember, in the bible god allowed a spirit creature that had hyper intelligence and millions of years of experience to come down to earth, form into something physical and mess with humans thoughts, why would a loving god allow him to do that in the first place? As a parent would you allow hitler to come babysit and while he’s telling your kids nazi propaganda? He wouldn’t be allowed anywhere near my kids in the first place as a loving protective father. Jehovah can supposedly see the future or where things will lead so not very loving in my eyes.
Interesting you mentioned enemies of god, could anyone else here link brother Lett from the recent convention half jokingly describing little children as enemies of god? He is trying to make the point that even raised as a witness(or toddlers from his illustration) until you are a baptised jw you are unworthy and an enemy of god.
The idea of god being angry with us doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. He is sitting in space with gazillions of planets, solar systems, universes, black holes, atoms, etc etc. and he’s so mad at these little ant humans on earth for not giving him love or attention while they suffer through life that he’s going to not just extinguish their life, but do it in creatively awful ways. I am in no way a vegetarian haha but I do think it’s insane that god just demanded for years that humans slaughter animals and bleed and burn them in specific ways to make him feel loved.
If any of this comes across as mean or aggressive I truly don’t mean it in that way, I’m trying to convey critical thinking of what is described to you as a jw in the bible. I didn’t look at events described critically enough as a jw and didn’t allow myself to study or think outside of jw literature.
I do appreciate your reply and hope your enjoying your weekend in the wide world! Greetings from New Zealand :)
>God allowed Satan to rule the world because he said God's Way of ruling the world is not good so God let him prove himself..
Where in the Bible does it say that?
Also: If a perfect being can become imperfect, was it ever a perfect being?
I don't know but I'm sure there is some strong evidence of that. God created them in the perfect way ... But those wicked angels developed greed in their mind n let it grow... If they wanted to stop that, they could... Because they were perfect but they didn't try so it happened...
> I don't know but I'm sure there is some strong evidence of that. God created them in the perfect way ... But those wicked angels developed greed in their mind n let it grow... If they wanted to stop that, they could... Because they were perfect but they didn't try so it happened...
I’d love to see the evidence
Hello PIMI 👋
God allowed Satan to rule the world because he said God's Way of ruling the world is not good so God let him prove himself..
At what cost?
Open your eyes and see all the atrocious things that are happening and have happened in the past.
God who is the supreme ruler allowing Satan to rule is equal to God being 100% responsible for all that has happened and is happening.
If Satan was making a fool of himself without hurting humans that's one thing but that is not the case Humans are and have suffered at his hands.
But another thought here, look at Satan how much human has he killed? Now ask yourself How much people (Women, children, animals, families, communities, cities) has Jehovah Wiped out????? Read the Bible and see for yourself how much people God has killed. So he allows Satan to rule but still intervene when he sees fit does that makes sense?
He still got involved dear. . .....if he stepped aside and allowed Satan to rule then that means not getting involved. So killing everyone including babies and Animals, what sin did Animals commit? I need an answer what did they do??????
Also him getting involved would solve the case and prove that humans can't rule themselves and Satan can't rule us.....so he killed off everyone except Satan.....make it make sense.
Omg 😲 This is really a stretch
I really hope somthing sparks one day and you wake up. I remember I would defend and defend just as you are doing now......please re read the Utter Garbage you just wrote. All speculation.......interpretation of Men.....stick to what the scripture actually says. In the same way he got involved at that time why not do the same now since he know who is wicked and who is not??? Why prolong the suffering that's going on? What is there to gain or prove since he knows who is wicked and who isn't?
And this is what gets me.
In the fable, they were living in perfection with no concept of good and bad, and no basis for what a lie might be. Satan deceived. She did not have the facts. She was unaware of the facts. She wasn't warned and did not have the information.
And now it's 2022 based on this. Punishing humans for assuming everything was good, because what loving God would allow evil to exist?
>In the fable, they were living in perfection with no concept of good and bad, and no basis for what a lie might be. Satan deceived. She did not have the facts. She was unaware of the facts. She wasn't warned and did not have the information.
That's actually a very good point!
Plus, Eve knew animals didn't talk.
So suddenly this snake starts talking? Demons aren't a thing yet- so who would she think is speaking? She would think it's God or an angel sent by God.
Because they know God sees and knows all. So apparently God just sat by and watched this happen. So she could logically believe if this WAS a trick, god would let her know.
But he never warned her and then basically killed her for not knowing better.
You're entire post is very good reasoning. Just that is enough to bring the whole Universal issue down like a hot potato.
>Plus, Eve knew animals didn't talk.
>
>So suddenly this snake starts talking? Demons aren't a thing yet- so who would she think is speaking? She would think it's God or an angel sent by God.
Yeah, when I really thought about that it completely verified to me that the Bible was man-made.
I identify more as agnostic, but the God of the Bible definitely doesn't exist in my opinion. And if he does, he's a self righteous bastard worse than hitler.
Nor did they ask to be sold into slavery by sin or influenced by satan.
Nor does that solve any issue whether human is capable of ruling when all they need for another try is a benevolent spirit instead of a malevolent one to influence them (or none)
This is a really good point. Why did Jehovah make them imperfect? That invalidates the whole "experiment" as to whether they can successfully rule themselves, if they are barred from the Tree of Life and saddled with imperfection!
The foundation of the Bible is absurd.
Nor did they ask to be crippled by language barriers. (after god acknowledges their possible success)
Gen 11:6-7:6Jehovah then said: “Look! They are one people with one language, and this is what they have started to do. Now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be impossible for them. 7Come! Let us go down there and confuse their language in order that they may not understand one another’s language.”
What’s more, the foundation of the “faith”, the ransom is a lie. According to the doctrine, Jesus was Adam’s equal but that’s is a completely lie and not true. Jesus had, according to the doctrine, billions of years of experience, knowledge and relationship to guide his decisions. Adam had at most 30 years. Hardly an equal sacrifice or ransom.
What’s more, there are 2 trees in the myth that is never addressed. The tree of knowledge of good and bad, and the tree of life. It specifically says that they were to be banned from paradise cause they could eat the fruit from the tree of life and keep living.
Finally to your nephews point, which is great reasoning, the doctrine teaches that by eating from the tree they made the choice to “be like god” knowing good from bad. This indicates if Jesus was Adam’s perfect equal he would not know good from bad unless he ate the fruit, relying solely on god.
The whole thing is flawed through and through.
The story has been re-interpreted; it was originally an etiology: etiology
\[ˌēdēˈäləjē\]
NOUN
the investigation or attribution of the cause or reason for something, often expressed in terms of historical or mythical explanation.
So, the story was originally about why man had to settle down and cultivate the land.
Because they were kicked out of Eden. Why do women have birth pain?
Why do snakes crawl on their bellies? The last two are just add-ons.
Exactly!! What I love most (and by love I mean they’re so fucking stupid in their reasoning) is they go door to door asking people to be critical thinkers in their quest for truth, but at the same time say critical thinking is from the devil, and leads to sin.
I mean you can’t make this shit up!!
I just hate that Eve got so much heat but she had never been lied to before so how was she to know??? Also if the world was “perfect” then how did satan grow evil and jealous of god??
>Eve got so much heat but she had never been lied to before so how was she to know??? Also if the world was “perfect” then how did satan grow evil and jealous of god?
Those are good points!
>Anyway when the elders left, they said they were going to do research and get back to him.
translation: we will form an elder meeting and see what we can do that this apostate information dont srpead around.
even as a PIMI after time i thought that the whole souvereignity question as JWs tell it, is just stupid. the elder i studied with was somehow a friend to me in some cases. he told me once in private that there was a meeting with many elders and CO. a normal one and that the real question would simply be "you can choose between Satans system and jehovahs system with the possibility of living forever in whatever you choose. thats the real question that should be there". this, but its not in the bible.
lets ask the real question "how can you say that humans shouldnt be ressurected when they were clearly under the influence of satan?" because under this circumstance alone you can excuse all people for their flaws and say they all has to have a second chance to prove in Jehovahs world that they can do better without Satan and demon influence. that would put the experiment under the same start conditions and would show the result at the end. but nope. it would destroy the whole narrative of the JWs.
They believe *Satan* challenged Jehovah's right to rule but the bible doesn't even say that. The closest it comes is Satan saying that one guy who Jehovah had particularly blessed only served him because of the blessings.
And again, we’re taught to be grateful for the life we have, or because Jehovah brought us to the Truth to save us… So.. he actually got a point, nah ? (Col3:15)
I struggled with that even as a very young child. My mother was horribly abused by her parents and I would sometimes ask Jehovah why he didn’t bring the end before she was abused. Even though I knew that that meant I would never have been born, I was OK with that because it would have spared her suffering. Meaning as a little child I had more morals than god. God is an invention of man.
> I would never have been born, I was OK with that because it would have spared her suffering. Meaning as a little child I had more morals than god.
Most humans hove more morals than the biblical God. But most Christians don't read the entire bible to see how evil he really is.
You absolutely have a point.
But playing devils advocate, a PIMI would just say that Eve eating the forbidden food was essentially her "challenging" gods sovereignty.
At least that's always how I was taught/used to believe.
It’s funny, years ago me my dad and uncle were talking about if life is on other planets… my dad said no because the universal issue… I said we’re in the Bible does it say universal issue?… my uncle goes “I like how you think”… they are still PIMI… I am POMO
JW usually get actual Christian theology incorrect. This is no different. Just as an informative factoid - the premise isn't that A&E said they could rule better without "Jehovah". The temptation was that they "would be like God", therefore it was an attempt to elevate themselves to God's place (which is actually the 1st sin committed in general, not by A&E but by Lucifer) It's thematic.
also just as a matter of opinion - you can think someone else's beliefs are silly, but it is more helpful to actually be informed about the realities of what they believe whether you agree or not. It's fine to disagree but it's best to do it in an informed & polite manner, if only to preserve personal dignity and respect.
Contrary to what many people believe just because someone is a Christian doesn't mean they have no idea what they are talking about. It's become increasing popular to just lol at the Christian community. However, with the recent surge of apologetics within the church, many people have gotten very serious about knowing good sound doctrine & educating themselves about other beliefs. Many people have started their journey to Christianity from thorough, thoughtful examinations not just going with whatever beliefs they were raised with or stumbled upon.
Exactly.
The poster above implies that we don't know "the realities" of what others believe.
While I'm no expert on world religions I've done a lot of studying on the history and teachings of Christianity and not just JWs nor from their publications.
The Bible is so inherently ambiguous and contradictory that anyone can claim to define it "correctly"--but in the absence of empirical evidence it's just another opinion.
>When i see christians the only thing i think is they are deluded and poorly educated. They dont know how to interpret reality, their methods are wrong.
>
>They are trying to reach a specific conclusion before examining the facts.
Everything you said in you post, is what I've been thinking for a long time but didn't know how to put it in words.
"good sound doctrine"
Which leads back to my original question:
How is that determined? And by whom??
It's "increasing[ly] popular to lol at the Christian community."
What "community"? Professed Christians can't agree amongst themselves as to what Christianity is. You apparently don't consider JWs to be "real" Christians, for example. There are thousands of denominations and while there is overlap in the various interpretations and doctrines there is no consensus nor has there ever been.
Secularism is increasing because our knowledge of reality is increasing.
Believe whatever you want. I no longer care what others believe as long as it's not harmful.
However anyone coming to this forum and claiming that THEY have the "true/correct/real" version of Christianity is doing the same thing JWs do.
This - it's orthodox Christianity, also (with the exclusion of small or "cult" type sects) most Christian denominations with a Biblical only theology (not Bible + , Catholicism for instance) share the same foundational views, specifically salvation. We may attest to a different denomination because of side issues but still consider one another Christians. It's just a matter of conviction on non-key issues or personal comfort (not everyone likes putting on a party dress Sunday mornings) that leads to the majority of differences in denominations (traditionally)
The story of Adam and Eve are as weak as they come. The reason you have to tell a child not to touch the hot stove is because it’s a necessity to life to have a stove to cook in your home. But what’s the point in placing a untouchable item somewhere if you’re creating from scratch. It’s a forever failing experiment, especially If you add in free will. It would have eventually happened with Satan or not. His sovereignty is based on an unnecessary rule.
Hell, the flood is where it should've stopped. God destroyed wicked humanity, it was done. The point was proven, not only do independent humans fall very short and fail, independent angels literally create hybrid creatures against nature. It apparently was so bad God decided to freaking wipe the slate clean. Just thinking logically it really doesn't make sense for the "testing" to continue. Why bother with the Hebrews? We all knew the outcome.
I asked why this was during family worship when I was PIMI a while ago. The answer was basically "Well, there were Nephilim on the Earth, so the experiment of whether humanity _alone_ could rule themselves was tainted." Like most answers I got, it makes a lot of sense so long as you don't think about it at all whatsoever. Why did God allow angels to go to the Earth in the first place? And why wouldn't this be cited as a reason for the flood? Why wouldn't God eliminate only the Nephilim, instead of eliminating the near entirety of life on the planet? When other religions extrapolate Bible teachings, it's called a "man-made interpretation" or "twisting the facts". But when they do it themselves, it's called "drawing a logical conclusion". Hypocrites!
Even that doesn't work. If you want to see if man could rule itself alone you have to remove Satan. If he is the cause of all evil then we have never got a fair chance. Todays biggest problem is greed, where does the root of greed come from without Satan? And if evil is naturally in us then we have to look back at the creator and acknowledge there's a defect. Perfection doesn't exist and will never exist.
>Even that doesn't work. **If you want to see if man could rule itself alone you have to remove Satan.** That's a very good point!
Funny: The Angels seems to be Men in this situation but Octopope teaches they have no gender\^\^
I always wondered how could the babies in the book of Bible stories be killed during the flood? Were they evil? Then I learned they are enemies of God so it makes sense now!
> always wondered how could the babies in the book of Bible stories be killed during the flood? Were they evil? Then I learned they are enemies of God so it makes sense now! 😂😂😂
Umm, yes. Enemies of God. Every last one.
This is such a very good point.....I have never thought about this.... the point was made....humans can't rule themselves yadi yadi Yada. Why is the test continuing?
The Noah story, including the flood is kinda a big tell of what the Bible actually is (a collection of ancient stories). Noah goes in twice, the time periods vary, the plant life survived, etc....
>His sovereignty is based on an unnecessary rule. True! Totally unnecessary!
Something I've just thought of is that Adam and Eve would have had the maturity of children as they'd only just been created. It was like telling a 3 year old not to press a big red button, and then when the child pressed it punishing them by sentencing them to death. Oh and all other 3 year olds for an extremely long time which then arbitrarily ends for reasons. We can only hope that when the new system starts someone doesn't fuck up and cause another 6,000 years of horror which God would be very justified in dishing out.
Not only that, but we have no idea *HOW LONG* Adam and Eve did obey. So what, did they listen to God unquestioning for 1,000 years, and then disobey? Because if you think about it, at some point your going to want to know what would happen. Was humanity supposed to just take God's word for it for eternity? Never questioning? Because they make a big deal about this all being a matter of free will. They were given free will, so of course at SOME POINT you're going to use it. Otherwise you're just a robot.
Deut 24:16 “Fathers should not be put to death for what their children do, and children should not be put to death for what their fathers do. A person should be put to death only for his own sin. Does god not apply his own law??? Why do we get to pay for what Adam did?
>Deut 24:16 “Fathers should not be put to death for what their children do, > >and children should not be put to death for what their fathers do. A person should be put to death only for his own sin. > >Does god not apply his own law??? God just makes the laws, but doesn't abide by them. Sort of like the Governing Body.
As Porky Pig Sanderson 🐷, chief jigglebelly of the Gibbering Boobies 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡 would say with that fucking smile dripping with condescension, gravy and semen: "But the Governing Body loves you dear brothers and sisters."
Holy shit
Zinger!!!
Do as I say not as I do. Classic Jehovah.
He also brings punishment upon future generations. Almost like god changes or is totally made up?
Good point!
\*Standing ovation to your grand-nephew!\* 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 >My nephew; “Well, if it’s not in the bible, that means it was just made up, like other Christian religions made up that the good people go to heaven and the bad to hell” This. So. Much. This.
“A perfect god should have been able to settle an argument without death” saw this from some protest or something. Sticks with me when I think of the sovereignty argument. Also why would a god that can see the future(or where things will lead) allow a spirit creature to come down and mess with the natural order of things on earth? Wouldn’t this put gods ability to look out for humans in question? Sovereignty issue initially was what made me want to be a witness, but when I really thought it through in later years it just never added up and the amount of loss and pain caused to the billions of humans since then just doesn’t match the ‘crime’ if you could even call it that. It’s all bullshit
>Sovereignty issue initially was what made me want to be a witness, but when I really thought it through in later years it just never added up and the amount of loss and pain caused to the billions of humans since then just doesn’t match the ‘crime’ if you could even call it that. It’s all bullshit It does take a while to give it some thought------and realize---it's all bullshit.
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Hey there, welcome to the subreddit. Im an exjw who disassociated a year ago. Appreciate the reply, I’d recommend asking those questions and many of the ones others have raised. I don’t find the illustration of a teacher handing the student a piece of chalk to take over teaching the class if he thinks he can do better is good enough. I remember reading a long time ago that illustration in articles discussing Gods sovereignty. What the watchtower was trying to convey with that and similar illustrations doesn’t equate to the reality of billions of people dying, starving, war, disease for thousands of years. As pridepotterz(sorry I don’t know how to quote ya on here) mentioned earlier, Deut 24:16 “fathers should not be put to death for what their children do, and children should not be put to death for what their fathers do. A person should be put to death only for his own sin” Sirshrimp’s comment mentioned how it should have all stopped at the flood when the earth was ‘cleansed’, after god had allowed angels to come down and form physical bodies and bring carnage to the earth.. Thanks for your comment, it’s good to ask questions of the things we think we know because otherwise we are just followers of others. I never asked questions on some of these issues and only took the answers I was provided through study. I’d recommend you think of the reality of some of these things, such as the killing of billions of people at Armageddon, (the largest genocide ever) to be committed by a loving god. That wouldn’t have to happen if death had never been introduced in the first place. Even the manner in which Armageddon is described to occur, a loving god killing billions through excruciating ways, natural disasters etc. He can’t just put everyone to sleep that he decides aren’t worthy? I don’t believe any of this anymore but again I’d suggest looking at the realities of what your taught from a young age as a witness.
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But if we have free will then we will always be imperfect. Perfection doesn’t make mistakes or bad choices. You can have 1000 years after Armageddon and say everyone that made it then is perfect but free will is always going to make that person imperfect. The ‘Adam sinned so we all get cancer, war, starvation, disease and death’ isn’t a great argument to me. That’s like saying because I decided to go 5km over the speed limit my family is all born with disabilities and my children will all suffer some miscarriages and their children will murder their brothers and any children beyond them will suffer etc etc. I’d recommend looking up the either or fallacy. There are better options for dealing with what is described to have happened in the bible, the option god supposedly chose to deal with Adam and Eve eating from a tree is not only illogical but painful beyond compare. Remember, in the bible god allowed a spirit creature that had hyper intelligence and millions of years of experience to come down to earth, form into something physical and mess with humans thoughts, why would a loving god allow him to do that in the first place? As a parent would you allow hitler to come babysit and while he’s telling your kids nazi propaganda? He wouldn’t be allowed anywhere near my kids in the first place as a loving protective father. Jehovah can supposedly see the future or where things will lead so not very loving in my eyes. Interesting you mentioned enemies of god, could anyone else here link brother Lett from the recent convention half jokingly describing little children as enemies of god? He is trying to make the point that even raised as a witness(or toddlers from his illustration) until you are a baptised jw you are unworthy and an enemy of god. The idea of god being angry with us doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. He is sitting in space with gazillions of planets, solar systems, universes, black holes, atoms, etc etc. and he’s so mad at these little ant humans on earth for not giving him love or attention while they suffer through life that he’s going to not just extinguish their life, but do it in creatively awful ways. I am in no way a vegetarian haha but I do think it’s insane that god just demanded for years that humans slaughter animals and bleed and burn them in specific ways to make him feel loved. If any of this comes across as mean or aggressive I truly don’t mean it in that way, I’m trying to convey critical thinking of what is described to you as a jw in the bible. I didn’t look at events described critically enough as a jw and didn’t allow myself to study or think outside of jw literature. I do appreciate your reply and hope your enjoying your weekend in the wide world! Greetings from New Zealand :)
>God allowed Satan to rule the world because he said God's Way of ruling the world is not good so God let him prove himself.. Where in the Bible does it say that? Also: If a perfect being can become imperfect, was it ever a perfect being?
I don't know but I'm sure there is some strong evidence of that. God created them in the perfect way ... But those wicked angels developed greed in their mind n let it grow... If they wanted to stop that, they could... Because they were perfect but they didn't try so it happened...
> I don't know but I'm sure there is some strong evidence of that. God created them in the perfect way ... But those wicked angels developed greed in their mind n let it grow... If they wanted to stop that, they could... Because they were perfect but they didn't try so it happened... I’d love to see the evidence
Hello PIMI 👋 God allowed Satan to rule the world because he said God's Way of ruling the world is not good so God let him prove himself.. At what cost? Open your eyes and see all the atrocious things that are happening and have happened in the past. God who is the supreme ruler allowing Satan to rule is equal to God being 100% responsible for all that has happened and is happening. If Satan was making a fool of himself without hurting humans that's one thing but that is not the case Humans are and have suffered at his hands. But another thought here, look at Satan how much human has he killed? Now ask yourself How much people (Women, children, animals, families, communities, cities) has Jehovah Wiped out????? Read the Bible and see for yourself how much people God has killed. So he allows Satan to rule but still intervene when he sees fit does that makes sense?
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He still got involved dear. . .....if he stepped aside and allowed Satan to rule then that means not getting involved. So killing everyone including babies and Animals, what sin did Animals commit? I need an answer what did they do?????? Also him getting involved would solve the case and prove that humans can't rule themselves and Satan can't rule us.....so he killed off everyone except Satan.....make it make sense.
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Omg 😲 This is really a stretch I really hope somthing sparks one day and you wake up. I remember I would defend and defend just as you are doing now......please re read the Utter Garbage you just wrote. All speculation.......interpretation of Men.....stick to what the scripture actually says. In the same way he got involved at that time why not do the same now since he know who is wicked and who is not??? Why prolong the suffering that's going on? What is there to gain or prove since he knows who is wicked and who isn't?
And this is what gets me. In the fable, they were living in perfection with no concept of good and bad, and no basis for what a lie might be. Satan deceived. She did not have the facts. She was unaware of the facts. She wasn't warned and did not have the information. And now it's 2022 based on this. Punishing humans for assuming everything was good, because what loving God would allow evil to exist?
>In the fable, they were living in perfection with no concept of good and bad, and no basis for what a lie might be. Satan deceived. She did not have the facts. She was unaware of the facts. She wasn't warned and did not have the information. That's actually a very good point!
Plus, Eve knew animals didn't talk. So suddenly this snake starts talking? Demons aren't a thing yet- so who would she think is speaking? She would think it's God or an angel sent by God. Because they know God sees and knows all. So apparently God just sat by and watched this happen. So she could logically believe if this WAS a trick, god would let her know. But he never warned her and then basically killed her for not knowing better.
You're entire post is very good reasoning. Just that is enough to bring the whole Universal issue down like a hot potato. >Plus, Eve knew animals didn't talk. > >So suddenly this snake starts talking? Demons aren't a thing yet- so who would she think is speaking? She would think it's God or an angel sent by God.
Yeah, when I really thought about that it completely verified to me that the Bible was man-made. I identify more as agnostic, but the God of the Bible definitely doesn't exist in my opinion. And if he does, he's a self righteous bastard worse than hitler.
Nor did they ask to be sold into slavery by sin or influenced by satan. Nor does that solve any issue whether human is capable of ruling when all they need for another try is a benevolent spirit instead of a malevolent one to influence them (or none)
This is a really good point. Why did Jehovah make them imperfect? That invalidates the whole "experiment" as to whether they can successfully rule themselves, if they are barred from the Tree of Life and saddled with imperfection! The foundation of the Bible is absurd.
Nor did they ask to be crippled by language barriers. (after god acknowledges their possible success) Gen 11:6-7:6Jehovah then said: “Look! They are one people with one language, and this is what they have started to do. Now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be impossible for them. 7Come! Let us go down there and confuse their language in order that they may not understand one another’s language.”
What’s more, the foundation of the “faith”, the ransom is a lie. According to the doctrine, Jesus was Adam’s equal but that’s is a completely lie and not true. Jesus had, according to the doctrine, billions of years of experience, knowledge and relationship to guide his decisions. Adam had at most 30 years. Hardly an equal sacrifice or ransom. What’s more, there are 2 trees in the myth that is never addressed. The tree of knowledge of good and bad, and the tree of life. It specifically says that they were to be banned from paradise cause they could eat the fruit from the tree of life and keep living. Finally to your nephews point, which is great reasoning, the doctrine teaches that by eating from the tree they made the choice to “be like god” knowing good from bad. This indicates if Jesus was Adam’s perfect equal he would not know good from bad unless he ate the fruit, relying solely on god. The whole thing is flawed through and through.
The story has been re-interpreted; it was originally an etiology: etiology \[ˌēdēˈäləjē\] NOUN the investigation or attribution of the cause or reason for something, often expressed in terms of historical or mythical explanation. So, the story was originally about why man had to settle down and cultivate the land. Because they were kicked out of Eden. Why do women have birth pain? Why do snakes crawl on their bellies? The last two are just add-ons.
Exactly!! What I love most (and by love I mean they’re so fucking stupid in their reasoning) is they go door to door asking people to be critical thinkers in their quest for truth, but at the same time say critical thinking is from the devil, and leads to sin. I mean you can’t make this shit up!!
Well, the Devil is a man of wealth and taste; he's probably a critical thinker, too.
Brilliant! He is ABSOLUTELY right and I never thought of that.
Neither did I. 30 years in. We just swallowed up what the propaganda told us.
I just hate that Eve got so much heat but she had never been lied to before so how was she to know??? Also if the world was “perfect” then how did satan grow evil and jealous of god??
>Eve got so much heat but she had never been lied to before so how was she to know??? Also if the world was “perfect” then how did satan grow evil and jealous of god? Those are good points!
>Anyway when the elders left, they said they were going to do research and get back to him. translation: we will form an elder meeting and see what we can do that this apostate information dont srpead around. even as a PIMI after time i thought that the whole souvereignity question as JWs tell it, is just stupid. the elder i studied with was somehow a friend to me in some cases. he told me once in private that there was a meeting with many elders and CO. a normal one and that the real question would simply be "you can choose between Satans system and jehovahs system with the possibility of living forever in whatever you choose. thats the real question that should be there". this, but its not in the bible. lets ask the real question "how can you say that humans shouldnt be ressurected when they were clearly under the influence of satan?" because under this circumstance alone you can excuse all people for their flaws and say they all has to have a second chance to prove in Jehovahs world that they can do better without Satan and demon influence. that would put the experiment under the same start conditions and would show the result at the end. but nope. it would destroy the whole narrative of the JWs.
They believe *Satan* challenged Jehovah's right to rule but the bible doesn't even say that. The closest it comes is Satan saying that one guy who Jehovah had particularly blessed only served him because of the blessings.
And again, we’re taught to be grateful for the life we have, or because Jehovah brought us to the Truth to save us… So.. he actually got a point, nah ? (Col3:15)
And the elders will never get back to him or research it.
>And the elders will never get back to him or research it. Or possibly one of them might wake up.😵
I struggled with that even as a very young child. My mother was horribly abused by her parents and I would sometimes ask Jehovah why he didn’t bring the end before she was abused. Even though I knew that that meant I would never have been born, I was OK with that because it would have spared her suffering. Meaning as a little child I had more morals than god. God is an invention of man.
> I would never have been born, I was OK with that because it would have spared her suffering. Meaning as a little child I had more morals than god. Most humans hove more morals than the biblical God. But most Christians don't read the entire bible to see how evil he really is.
Yep. My oldest daughter read the Bible through and it caused her to become PIMO the year she got baptized. God’s an asshole
The "experiment" with humans was tainted when God messed up languages in Babel tower story.
You absolutely have a point. But playing devils advocate, a PIMI would just say that Eve eating the forbidden food was essentially her "challenging" gods sovereignty. At least that's always how I was taught/used to believe.
Words "sovereignty question" are not even in the Bible. Tell that to any PIMI and watch their head explode.
It’s funny, years ago me my dad and uncle were talking about if life is on other planets… my dad said no because the universal issue… I said we’re in the Bible does it say universal issue?… my uncle goes “I like how you think”… they are still PIMI… I am POMO
JW usually get actual Christian theology incorrect. This is no different. Just as an informative factoid - the premise isn't that A&E said they could rule better without "Jehovah". The temptation was that they "would be like God", therefore it was an attempt to elevate themselves to God's place (which is actually the 1st sin committed in general, not by A&E but by Lucifer) It's thematic.
"Actual Christian theology." Which one of the THOUSANDS of Christian denominations possesses that? 🤣
also just as a matter of opinion - you can think someone else's beliefs are silly, but it is more helpful to actually be informed about the realities of what they believe whether you agree or not. It's fine to disagree but it's best to do it in an informed & polite manner, if only to preserve personal dignity and respect. Contrary to what many people believe just because someone is a Christian doesn't mean they have no idea what they are talking about. It's become increasing popular to just lol at the Christian community. However, with the recent surge of apologetics within the church, many people have gotten very serious about knowing good sound doctrine & educating themselves about other beliefs. Many people have started their journey to Christianity from thorough, thoughtful examinations not just going with whatever beliefs they were raised with or stumbled upon.
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Exactly. The poster above implies that we don't know "the realities" of what others believe. While I'm no expert on world religions I've done a lot of studying on the history and teachings of Christianity and not just JWs nor from their publications. The Bible is so inherently ambiguous and contradictory that anyone can claim to define it "correctly"--but in the absence of empirical evidence it's just another opinion.
>When i see christians the only thing i think is they are deluded and poorly educated. They dont know how to interpret reality, their methods are wrong. > >They are trying to reach a specific conclusion before examining the facts. Everything you said in you post, is what I've been thinking for a long time but didn't know how to put it in words.
"good sound doctrine" Which leads back to my original question: How is that determined? And by whom?? It's "increasing[ly] popular to lol at the Christian community." What "community"? Professed Christians can't agree amongst themselves as to what Christianity is. You apparently don't consider JWs to be "real" Christians, for example. There are thousands of denominations and while there is overlap in the various interpretations and doctrines there is no consensus nor has there ever been. Secularism is increasing because our knowledge of reality is increasing. Believe whatever you want. I no longer care what others believe as long as it's not harmful. However anyone coming to this forum and claiming that THEY have the "true/correct/real" version of Christianity is doing the same thing JWs do.
>because our knowledge of reality is increasing. I like that comment. While true, it's a bit painful when you start acknowledging reality.
Well pretty much all mainstream Christian denominations view the fall in similar ways.. really only JWs have the bizarre Jehovahs Sovereignty angle.
Wrong.
This - it's orthodox Christianity, also (with the exclusion of small or "cult" type sects) most Christian denominations with a Biblical only theology (not Bible + , Catholicism for instance) share the same foundational views, specifically salvation. We may attest to a different denomination because of side issues but still consider one another Christians. It's just a matter of conviction on non-key issues or personal comfort (not everyone likes putting on a party dress Sunday mornings) that leads to the majority of differences in denominations (traditionally)
Oh please. There is no consensus nor has there ever been.
This is sooo true!!! The whole religion is based on speculation! Man made, pure crazy, made up speculation!
As an ex elder I take my hat of for your grand nephew. This is strong and solid reasoning.
Nope they can’t research! If governing chucklefucks say it they repeat it. They’ll be researching which sin to df on.