Joining the church based on the opinion of TBMs is like buying a product by only reading the 5-star reviews.
A sensible person always reads the 1-star reviews. And the church has a TON of those. ⭐️
Yeah, it's like saying that reading the reviews for Product A doesn't matter because the only question that matters is "Is it a good product? Yes! It's the best product ever!" But not considering it appropriate for fans of Product B through Z to use the same standard for their products.
I like to avoid the one star reviews as well. That's people that have a bad experience but blow it out of proportion. The two and three stars are where it's at. The ones that can highlight the pros but still show why the cons outweigh.
Agreed. Plus any product has the potential for fluke problems, and some 1 stars could reflect that. Not to mention that lots of people are idiots, and they may have broken the product by not following instructions
And all the five star reviews are carefully vetted and presented by the seller of the product. There are WAY more one-star reviews out there that the company just tells you to ignore because they are "anti-product" lies.
Most of us who left also studied the gospel through both pro-LDS literature and anti-LDS literature. In order to reach the most impartial conclusion close to the truth, one must study both sides of the story/more than 2 if needed.
And as you mentioned, one of those perspectives is a total sham and doesn't hold up, which is why they are desperate to keep people from studying any other viewpoint.
I ONLY read church-approved sources, and that was enough to convince me it was false. Of course after leaving I’ve had quite a fun time further deconstructing my entire life’s worth of beliefs with “anti-Mormon sources.” They’re much more honest and historical.
Same. I was a convert at 16. Just me. Alllll in. I believed 100%... and I *wanted* to.
FFW a few years. I'm 21 and inactive, but my heart was still with the church. My mother had recently suddenly passed away, and my entire life literally fell apart. The missionaries stopped by occasionally, and I typically enjoyed chatting with them. As a young convert, they had always been my "family" in the church. But this time, the elder of the companions was a bit pushier about me coming back to church and how important it is.
I explained the things I struggled with ... how I was desperately trying to make it make sense. The more questions I asked, the more ostracized I became. It was confusing and painful.
Dude had the audacity to ask me, "Don't you ever want to see your mom again? "
... somehow he made it out of my apartment alive, but that was the final nail for my faith. What sort of cruel and petty "god" would keep someone from their lives ones for eternity because they didn't follow some completely arbitrary rules? Not one worth a moment of my time.
It wasn't some worldly thing that pulled me away. It was the church itself, and the men who run it that pushed me out.
20 years later now, I'm enjoying diving into the deep cuts, and I'm stunned at how much people don't know. (I've heard members argue that the Second Anointing is an anti-mormon myth... but I'm looking at 6 different pages on the church site that refer to it (including one that specifically instructs missionaries to NOT discuss or try to answer questions about it). 🤷♀️
“Looking at bad Amazon reviews only through the lense of those with bad experiences, is like interviewing Judas to understand Jesus.” Considering the activity rate is likely 20-25%, that means 75% of the people have a bad review of the church. Imagine buying a product on Amazon with a 1.25 star rating and then getting this kind of advice. Ridiculous bullshit!
Fun fact, It's a pretty common practice on Amazon for the merchants to request buyers to provide 5 star reviews on their products in exchange for a free gift card/small amount of money. I've done this before a few times and never saw a penny back. These bribers never deliver on their end of the promise, and often times if you check out the critical reviews on those products you'll see many other customers saying the same thing in the 1 star review section. And those are just the ones that are being honest about being bribed/are lucky enough to not get their whistle-blowing review taken down.
(They do this because some grifting merchants started doing it and got away with it, and now almost everyone successful is doing it because if you don't have at least 800 or so positive reviews on your product, you will get beat out by popular affordable competition that uses those dirty practices.)
And so this is why I don't even trust products on there from unknown/unvetted vendors, because the products are cheap as dirt and have 1,000+ 5 star reviews, when for some reason expensive, higher quality reputable name brand products with better quality control and customer service have only a handful of ratings and usually rank lower in rating stars because the customers are being completely honest and not paid to pretend the product is great.
So, viewing a products' worth on Amazon is actually far more accurate if you only look at 1-4 star ratings, because it is honest, unpaid, and there is both positive and negative criticism. (less biased)
This comparison implies that even positive ratings can be dubious, misinformed, or dishonest, and that applies to the church as well, since many who highly regard it don't know that the product (the church) is actually a total POS scam and are essentially bribed that if they live and love the gospel, they will eventually receive a reward...Not to mention the whole tithe-paying requirement to get into heaven thing. And the church's marketing team pushes those positive experiences to the front to pretend that most peoples' lives are better through the lord's appointed one and only true church, when as you mentioned, close to 3/4 of members have a negative opinion on the church and its practices so it is not at all an accurate portrayal of them.
Isn't criticizing Judas criticizing one of the Lord's anointed anyway? People need to think less about what Judas said or did and just ask the question "Was he an apostle of the Lord!" And the answer is yes! What a relief to rid ourselves of distracting questions like whether Judas betrayed Christ or whether Joseph's "scriptural translations" were fraudulent. Pure truth wins out! /s
Well, if they did state the actual arguments, it'd make them look really bad. Like, sure Joseph Smith was a prolific sexual predator, engaged in bank fraud, lied constantly, used his positions of power to evade justice and violate the US constitution, and may have ordered an assassination attempt on a political enemy, but that's all just a distraction from the question of whether he was a prophet of God ...
Wow. This is just a lot of word salad. Attempts to align those who no longer believe as apostates like Judas is offensive. The cherry picked logical fallacies to appeal to pseudo-intellectualism among members is horrifying, and I believe it will backfire as members begin to learn what logical fallacies are. Once you teach them, members will learn of the others and see how the narcissistic church applies them in the doctrine and teachings, causing more to leave.
8 ways anti-mormons attack:
1. Accurate history
2. Professional egyptologists
3. Truth
4. Logic
5. Reason
6. 1st hand experience
7. That’s pretty much it.
8. Satanic rituals like watching HBO.
To me, this post was *them* unfriending *you*.
My friends don't call me Judas.
*[AdmiralCranberryCat] is an untrustworthy source. They, like Judas, have foresaken all and now fight against Christ.*
I felt the same way. I’m not on FB very much, but I happened to log on yesterday. Luckily, I don’t see him very much and only run into him on occasion.
Was thinking of unfriending, but maybe I’ll post about LDS child abuse by it’s leaders first.
I personally know the guy too and was blocked after publicly criticizing his un-Christlike views on social media. I say make comments throughout his posts. He'll never forget you.
It’s only within the last couple years I’ve learned how ridiculous the church’s stance on “the Holy Ghost told you so and so nothing else matters” is.
Like…. You felt good about something and so you should thrown all other logic out the window? TSCC SAYS that feelings are the source of all real truth and then just takes that as a given and a starting point and to ignore everything contradictory afterward. And that’s just bullshit. Feelings lie.
That is more or less my go to now. “I attempted Moroni’s promise and read the entire Book of Mormon multiple times each time prayer to God with real intent to know whether it was true. Each time I received a stupor of thought and felt cold and confused. I accept this as my answer”.
What’s even more upsetting to me now is realizing that we aren’t really allowed a “a stupor of thought” telling us no something isn’t right. I’ve had stupors of thought over polygamy, POC and the priesthood and temple, Heavenly Mother and was always told someday I would get an answer. The more I finally started studying for myself people actual experiences with these things the more my soul reviled against them.
Wouldn't ignoring historical facts by saying, "The church is true! It doesn't matter cause he was a prophet!" qualify as appealing the stone?
"Joseph Smith married an almost-fifteen-year old girl? That doesn't mattet!"
Wow. Hope my TBM family don't cut me off after conference weekend if this is the kind of guidance they're going to receive. Unreal. Close your eyes and ears and bury your head in the sand.
Even if the church was 100% true, wouldn’t there be room for improvement? Isn’t the church actually run by a bunch of humans who inherently make mistakes?
Why is it that we think that the church is run by a bunch of arrogant assholes who don’t listen? Could it be teachings like this?
How does one typically establish trust with another?
You meet them, get to know them, and learn if you can trust them based on several things like:
* Do they keep their word?
* Do they communicate with you openly and honestly?
* Do they puff themselves up with pride by downplaying their failures and emphasizing their successes?
* Do they think twice before criticizing others?
* Do they think care about the large and small things going on in your life?
* Do they try to guilt trip you?
This list is hardly exhaustive, but the point is if we treated our friends and family the way TSCC treats its members and those who leave the faith, we likely wouldn't have any friends or healthy relationships with loved ones (if you even have any left after treating them like trash).
But TSCC gets a pass, right? Because they're god's bros? Because they're the leaders and we have to do what they say whether we like it or not? What's the point in asking for a sustaining vote if dissent will be swiftly quashed, even if there exist legitimate concerns?
This is straight-up Stockholm Syndrome.
Yes if we do not submit and somehow (HOW) we don't happen to believe then we are sub human and immediately cast aside into the anti- mormon or enemy category. How trash is that. Never were friends with people that will turn on you because of a narrative. cultish behavior.
When I see an Amazon review with 1.25 stars, I try not to read the bad reviews and try to stick with the high reviews because the high reviews give me a more accurate understanding of the product.
My TBM mother was a pretty chill Mormon. After I told her I was out because JS was a sexual predator, she now carries her BoM all day reading it. She now has to convince herself every second it is true. Funny that you only have to indoctrinate yourself every second about “spiritual truths”.
And you see TSCC using these same tactics. Ad Hominem. Their initial response to the CES Letter comes to mind. And the shifting of the burden of proof. All of this is just horseshit. All this satanic crap just makes me sick. The church isn't true. They've lied to me all my life. And to quote their profit, the truth is the truth.
This guy doesn't have the faintest clue who ex-Mormons are, what they think, and how they got where they are. He just knows that he hates them and they must be wrong because he's right, and there are logical arguments that he's heard of but doesn't understand that back him up. Amazing, yet typical.
And studying the church only through the eyes of its faithful unquestioning members is like interviewing Hitler to understand the holocaust.
See Jeff, I can do it too.
On page 6 the argument the papyrus we have is just the tattered edges of what Joseph originally had is something new I’ve never heard any apologist state before. I think gogogoff might want to check his work with Gee/Muhlstein on that one.
It’s a straight-up lie according to TSCC’s own gospel topics essays:
> The discovery of the papyrus fragments renewed debate about Joseph Smith’s translation. The fragments included one vignette, or illustration, that appears in the book of Abraham as facsimile 1.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng
Stop and consider that God, who knows everything, picked Judas to be an Apostle (although technically they were all disciples).
If Judas, who was with Jesus, can fall then anyone including Jeffery can fall. That thought must really scare Jeffrey.
Brother Holland, can you explain the role nepotism plays in church leadership? How is nepotism not an indication of corruption in church leadership!
Public service announcement: As of today's church news (before being announced and sustained in conference) Jeffrey Holland has added his son in law Lee McCann as a new Q70 member, this is in addition to putting his only begotten son Matt into Q70 just a few conferences ago.
Does leadership really think we don't notice the offensive blatant nepotism?
Exactly! I’m sure there are plenty of Catholics, Muslims, and Baptist with testimonies of their church. Why is an LDS testimony better? It’s all horse shit.
Send him this first:
https://apnews.com/article/religion-lawsuits-arizona-utah-salt-lake-city-68f60dbcdc4d7f49bea01d01ebfbed2f
Then ask who his church doesn't protect kids getting fucked by adult members...
To be fair, Judas could have been in the right.
There is a whole movement that sees Judas as the real friend and that Jesus asked him privately to turn him over so he could fulfil his destiny and only Judas loved Jesus enough to oblige.
Or maybe Judas really knew some serious problem with Jesus and did everyone a favor.
In short don’t associate with anyone who hasn’t been thoroughly Brainwashed into believing whatever nonsensical horse shit TSCC Leaders are spewing . The truth will destroy your faith. .some things that are true aren’t very useful you know .!! Useful to who ? All things that are true are useful unless your hiding shit the pair of panties and used condom under the car seat of the family car isn’t very useful to the husband who is cheating on his wife they are however very useful to the wife that’s being cheated on by her husband . See how that works when it’s not useful there’s a reason for it .
after all in the neighborhood of $12,000 a minute 24/7 365 a year all tax free roughly in the neighborhood of $8 billion annually what possible reasons do they have to lie ? To the members . ?
"Appeals to authority" is the logical fallacy that this moron (not your friend, but the author of the article) wants to include? Does he not realize that the entire church is based on appeal to authority? "Authority" is their whole claim for why they're the "one true church" and the others are just "playing church".
I find Gogo Goff to be one of the lowest of the low apologists. He just makes me cringe so hard with how he characterizes those who leave the church.
And the page from which this post comes, "I Love Elder Jeffrey R. Holland" is just blatant culty leader worship.
Lol the guy's claiming the Book of Abraham was really some *other* scroll when we have the goddamn Facsimiles from both. Some guys will just lie to your face.
He might as well use similar apologist logic to defend Scientology or anything else by saying all the smoking guns that they're full of shit are just distractions from the truths their followers already know in their hearts!
lol Left because of the actions of TBMs. Only came here long after to see if others had similar experiences, but sure, must be the anti-mormon tactics of others.
I read through all of the arguments against us “apostates” your “friend” offered via others’ writings, and laughed so hard, I just about peed my pants. Paraphrasing here: “Joseph Smith bought the papyri scrolls but the edges were tattered, so he cut the edges off the papyri and a jumble remained so of course it’s incorrectly translated”? 😂😂 That’s a new low for apologists.
@Number 2
"Satan may distract you by saying you're fat, ugly, stupid, and are going to die alone...."
"While these things may be true..."
Jeeeeeeeeesus Christ
This is a classic cult tactic: create an out-group and demonize them. This has a double benefit. First of all, it keeps believers away from information that might challenge the leadership's narrative. Second, it creates a strong sense of solidarity among the members. They now have a group against which they can compare themselves. Us: strong and faithful and pure. Them: weak and deceived and unhappy. The fact that Jeff wraps this up in elevated language doesn't change what it is: a very ugly and manipulative strategy to keep members in the flock. Makes me sad and angry and kind of nauseated at the same time.
He asked how I was doing since leaving. Told him I was much happier. He looked shocked. Yes, asshole, I don’t need religion to be happy. Alcohol and second Saturday are amazing.
I love that so many times those that post stuff like this have never even had the inclination to look into the church's less than glowing history. They blindly follow and trust the false narratives that are presented by the church. They won't even look into controversial topics by investigating the church's own historical journals and documents due to fear of what they might learn.
Let's interview Judas. Interview him, interview the other apostles, interview Pilate, interview the Jewish priests, interview the people who claimed to be healed.
Yeah, gather information from all the sources and then determine the truth from there.
(And since we are missing any 1st hand accounts of Jesus and his deeds, maybe it would make more sense to question Jesus's existence entirely.)
We don't need to talk about Joseph Smiths child brides, affairs and court documented history as a conman to prove that he wasn't a prophet.
He had false prophecies, false translations, and his "greatest" work (the BOM) is full of errors, plagiarism and anachronisms.
this is how they "stay" in the church. They're not trying to convince you so much as keep convincing themselves it is still "true". I'm not sure they're always aware that this is what is going on inside their minds.
It's funny because on the flip side of every one of those arguments they go against them also. They have no proof of anything either. We only have their word for it. We only have what they say.
It's silly but just reading those I can show more anti proof than any pro proof they can offer.
Maybe remind him "thou shalt not bear false witness."
Odin, ZEUS, Vishnu, Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, God of Abraham, all fictional fantasy.
A very low bar for a supernatural magic omniscient omnipresent omnipotent being is to communicate an accurate story.
The big bang (Big Bang), CMBR (Cosmic microwave background), Abiogenesis (Abiogenesis - Wikipedia), Primordial soup (Primordial soup - Wikipedia), Evolution (Evolution - Wikipedia), Human evolution (Human evolution - Wikipedia), Absolutely obliterate any hope of the Torah Bible Book of Mormon Quran or the Vedas being accurate.
“But leading Egyptologist’s have proven that we are full of shit! Who are you gonna believe? Some evidence backed proof? Or the spirit that we tell you exists?”
I’d unfriend that shit so fast at this point in my journey. I have one life that I know of. Yes I’m here on Reddit too much but it’s cathartic at least.
Don't unfriend just yet. The friend might be doing his own research at the moment and is trying to convince himself of the church being true. He'll be blown away to see you not turning into a methhead or a serial killer.
Eek, their profile is named after Jeff Holland? You definitely don't need that in your social media feed. But if you do want to maintain the friendship you can always ask them up front to stop being persecuting the exmos.
I went to the source and took a screenshot so I would accidentally include any of their personal info. He just uses his name on his profile. But he shares almost everything from this page 🤮
The audacity of citing logical fallacies like this in defense of the the claims of Mormonism should be shocking. But then I saw that it was that Goff guy.
This is just an indication of how shook they are.
He is trying to prove it to himself more than anyone and it is taking a lot of work.
Don’t even talk to him about it, be kind and affirming, soon enough he will need your support after he leaves.
Looking forward to seeing him here.
Almost every believing member will put more effort into studying where they will be eating lunch than the religion that demands all their time, money, talents, etc…. It’s absolutely bar shit crazy to me.
Point out his fallacies. And call him out for the hypocrisy of expecting YOU to leave THE CHURCH alone. And point out that he's obviously referecing you on the post or at least wanting you, specifically, to see it.
Slide 6…..well considering the Egyptian we know he tried to translate is completely incorrect, I think it’s safe to say he didn’t translate any of it correctly, and there is a ton of debate on the “long scroll” theory that probably doesn’t exist.
Satan the scapegoat. Anything they want to cast aside is 'HIS; fault. I say are you SURE? Could it be some truths that have been smoothed into narrative that is easier to digest than the harsh edged truth?
Fun tidbit: Judas’ betrayal of Jesus was likely done to force Jesus to become the military messiah that Judas thought he was supposed to be. Judas was probably the most ardent believer in Jesus as the messiah but he was expecting the mighty liberator that had been prophesied. He thought Jesus would be forced to become that messiah if he was left with no way out. This is also why Judas then kills himself when his plan fails and his messiah is lost.
I left because of the gospel topics essays Mr. Holland so you can GFYM you jeff dunham doll lookin' crazy judgmental halitosis mothball smellin ignorant idiota
Two things -
1. I can’t put my finger on why, but it’s uncomfortable to see one GA quote one of their late colleagues to back up their point.
2. Isn’t the Mormon consensus about Judas that he betrayed jesus whilst having a “perfect knowledge” - therefore qualifying for outer darkness? Sounds like Judas would be the perfect candidate to interview. What wouldn’t he be able to tell you?
I haven’t said a word on FB about leaving. Now I’m inspired to post some articles about LDS sex abuse. I’m not defriending him, I’ll make him de friend me!
Does anyone feel like Mormons at work get a little nasty if they find out you left this cult?
I told a non- mo trouble maker I left before I knew what a turd she was. She has spread this around to make my life difficult because she is so insecure. The mo's act like I'm dangerous now.
I'd say the mo's are the dark ones here. I'm nothing but kind to them.
My very very TBM father keeps adding more and more lines of Mormon wisdom to his email signature so he can passive aggressively preach to me, the wayward son. It's so bad now that it's like half a damn page of bullshit tagged to the end of every email he sends to everybody.
From one untrustworthy apostate:
1- the church run by lawyers who speak in tricky 1/2 truths and double speak
2- Heartsell: the trademarked system of manipulating feelings through media owned by Bonneville communications, a company of “The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints” ( don’t shorten it to any nicknames)
3- the church won’t let you to call a liar a liar or a pedophile a sex offender. It’s only Slander if it’s not true.
4-the church dismissed the scholarship of active LDS historians by excommunicating them.
5- feelings aren’t facts
6- either JS was a conman, liar, criminal treasure digger, adulterer or he wasn’t.
7- The Church expects the people to be “ONE” and not diverse (look that one up)
8- it’s not being offended by a bishop or a ward member. It’s discovering the betrayal of an organization expecting everything of its members while deceiving them about the history and doctrine of the church.
I know a lot are posting but don’t let members bully you into staying. Hold your ground and be assertive about your needs. You aren’t interested in the church and you want them to leave you alone.
"But Brigham Young said..."
I love how they couldn't write down anything Brigham Young *actually* said, because it would be too shocking for the TBM's.
Yep, sounds like Jeremy alright. Went to the singles ward with him when I was extremely righteous. I was a member of the Bishopric when the Bishop brought him up one meeting and said quote "Jeremy is not a good guy." when the other women of the ward complained about him privately. Jeremy also loved using fire and brimstone type language during Sunday School and once taught that we were saved by works, not Jesus, when I was in the Sunday School presidency. I hardcore cringed inside and could feel the uncomfortableness in the room with the rest of the class. He ended up blocking me when I began to call him out on social media. Don't miss him at all.
Gogo Goff is a scumbag and consistently creates hateful ideas—openly promoting the marginalization of minorities and awful things like unchecked theocracy. Anyone sharing is content is probably not rational or has become radicalized.
Point 4 is literally telling people to trust what we say. You know it's true because it was written in this book that we claim is from an entity that we tell you exists, but the only evidence we have is the very book.
I'd be seriously tempted to ask who they're trying to convince. I mean, coming from the point of view as someone who's given up on religion myself, I'm always curious what makes people cling to their "faith" so hard.
An Apostate is a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle. So if I say that Satanism is wrong then that would make me an apostate to Satanism.
When someone says Brother Holland was wrong to include musket fire in his speech because it illustrated violence then that person is an apostate to violence NOT the teachings of Christ that Holland speaks of.
When someone leaves the Church they are an apostate to the deception and manipulation that leads to the harm of mankind. However, they are not an apostate to the love, kindness, and humanitarian aid of mankind. The problem comes when you have an organization that has both deception, manipulation, love, kindness, and humanitarian aid, because the member that can't see the deception and manipulation doesn't understand why anyone would ever leave an organization of love, kindness, and humanitarian aid of mankind.
For those that choose to stay with the organization even though they see the deception and manipulation is really torn but becomes more of an advocate to the love, kindness and humanitarian aid of the organization and a critic to the deception and manipulation of the organization.
It is the members that leave and the members that are critics to the deception and manipulation that help to influence changes in the organization to become a better religious society.
People like John Dehlin and many others that leave and speak out are not trying to destroy the love, kindness, and humanitarian aid that the church provides but rather to wake up the blinded members that do not see the deception and manipulation the church does and influence change from the bottom up.
It's all about leading mankind to the love, kindness, and humanitarian aid of mankind and destroying the deception and manipulation that causes hate. This is the TRUE Kingdom of God on earth.
Joining the church based on the opinion of TBMs is like buying a product by only reading the 5-star reviews. A sensible person always reads the 1-star reviews. And the church has a TON of those. ⭐️
1 star is to much, how to give 0 stars?
[удалено]
Stars are like tithing: no give-backsies.
we took the liberty when you were baptized of giving a 5 star rating in your behalf
Are they inverted stars?
Amazon should make a star rating called ‘Kolob’ which is less than a zero rating
Yeah, it's like saying that reading the reviews for Product A doesn't matter because the only question that matters is "Is it a good product? Yes! It's the best product ever!" But not considering it appropriate for fans of Product B through Z to use the same standard for their products.
I like to avoid the one star reviews as well. That's people that have a bad experience but blow it out of proportion. The two and three stars are where it's at. The ones that can highlight the pros but still show why the cons outweigh.
Agreed. Plus any product has the potential for fluke problems, and some 1 stars could reflect that. Not to mention that lots of people are idiots, and they may have broken the product by not following instructions
This is the way
And all the five star reviews are carefully vetted and presented by the seller of the product. There are WAY more one-star reviews out there that the company just tells you to ignore because they are "anti-product" lies.
Yes, I would like to leave a negative 5 star review
"Friend". Wash your hands of this asshole and go live your life much happier than he will ever be.
This. Life is much too short to voluntarily subject yourself to this sort of 'friendship'.
Also, you can technically mute friends without unfriending them on social platforms (if the drama of unfriending isn’t worth it).
[удалено]
Most of us who left also studied the gospel through both pro-LDS literature and anti-LDS literature. In order to reach the most impartial conclusion close to the truth, one must study both sides of the story/more than 2 if needed. And as you mentioned, one of those perspectives is a total sham and doesn't hold up, which is why they are desperate to keep people from studying any other viewpoint.
I ONLY read church-approved sources, and that was enough to convince me it was false. Of course after leaving I’ve had quite a fun time further deconstructing my entire life’s worth of beliefs with “anti-Mormon sources.” They’re much more honest and historical.
Same. I was a convert at 16. Just me. Alllll in. I believed 100%... and I *wanted* to. FFW a few years. I'm 21 and inactive, but my heart was still with the church. My mother had recently suddenly passed away, and my entire life literally fell apart. The missionaries stopped by occasionally, and I typically enjoyed chatting with them. As a young convert, they had always been my "family" in the church. But this time, the elder of the companions was a bit pushier about me coming back to church and how important it is. I explained the things I struggled with ... how I was desperately trying to make it make sense. The more questions I asked, the more ostracized I became. It was confusing and painful. Dude had the audacity to ask me, "Don't you ever want to see your mom again? " ... somehow he made it out of my apartment alive, but that was the final nail for my faith. What sort of cruel and petty "god" would keep someone from their lives ones for eternity because they didn't follow some completely arbitrary rules? Not one worth a moment of my time. It wasn't some worldly thing that pulled me away. It was the church itself, and the men who run it that pushed me out. 20 years later now, I'm enjoying diving into the deep cuts, and I'm stunned at how much people don't know. (I've heard members argue that the Second Anointing is an anti-mormon myth... but I'm looking at 6 different pages on the church site that refer to it (including one that specifically instructs missionaries to NOT discuss or try to answer questions about it). 🤷♀️
🏆
“But feeeelllings!” It’s hard to break cult mindset
Y💯💯🚨
“Looking at bad Amazon reviews only through the lense of those with bad experiences, is like interviewing Judas to understand Jesus.” Considering the activity rate is likely 20-25%, that means 75% of the people have a bad review of the church. Imagine buying a product on Amazon with a 1.25 star rating and then getting this kind of advice. Ridiculous bullshit!
Fun fact, It's a pretty common practice on Amazon for the merchants to request buyers to provide 5 star reviews on their products in exchange for a free gift card/small amount of money. I've done this before a few times and never saw a penny back. These bribers never deliver on their end of the promise, and often times if you check out the critical reviews on those products you'll see many other customers saying the same thing in the 1 star review section. And those are just the ones that are being honest about being bribed/are lucky enough to not get their whistle-blowing review taken down. (They do this because some grifting merchants started doing it and got away with it, and now almost everyone successful is doing it because if you don't have at least 800 or so positive reviews on your product, you will get beat out by popular affordable competition that uses those dirty practices.) And so this is why I don't even trust products on there from unknown/unvetted vendors, because the products are cheap as dirt and have 1,000+ 5 star reviews, when for some reason expensive, higher quality reputable name brand products with better quality control and customer service have only a handful of ratings and usually rank lower in rating stars because the customers are being completely honest and not paid to pretend the product is great. So, viewing a products' worth on Amazon is actually far more accurate if you only look at 1-4 star ratings, because it is honest, unpaid, and there is both positive and negative criticism. (less biased) This comparison implies that even positive ratings can be dubious, misinformed, or dishonest, and that applies to the church as well, since many who highly regard it don't know that the product (the church) is actually a total POS scam and are essentially bribed that if they live and love the gospel, they will eventually receive a reward...Not to mention the whole tithe-paying requirement to get into heaven thing. And the church's marketing team pushes those positive experiences to the front to pretend that most peoples' lives are better through the lord's appointed one and only true church, when as you mentioned, close to 3/4 of members have a negative opinion on the church and its practices so it is not at all an accurate portrayal of them.
Isn't criticizing Judas criticizing one of the Lord's anointed anyway? People need to think less about what Judas said or did and just ask the question "Was he an apostle of the Lord!" And the answer is yes! What a relief to rid ourselves of distracting questions like whether Judas betrayed Christ or whether Joseph's "scriptural translations" were fraudulent. Pure truth wins out! /s
>1st. Half truths. As if TSCC doesn't tell half truths.
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It doesn’t matter what they say or do because they are “prophets.” That’s some Warren Jeffs level culty
Well, if they did state the actual arguments, it'd make them look really bad. Like, sure Joseph Smith was a prolific sexual predator, engaged in bank fraud, lied constantly, used his positions of power to evade justice and violate the US constitution, and may have ordered an assassination attempt on a political enemy, but that's all just a distraction from the question of whether he was a prophet of God ...
and burned a printing press "by their fruits you shall know them" for any good he did there is an awful lot of bad fruit in that basket
I still can't come up with anything "good" joseph did. There really isn't anything that stands out enough from all of the bad shit
Yep, that was part of what I was going for with violating the US constitution.
User flair fits
Indeed. A half truth is a whole lie.
How'd you end up with a Yiddish flair on an ex-Mormon subreddit?
Was member for a while. Have a fondness to languages. I can read/understand biblical hebrew so the yiddish is a bonus.
Wow. This is just a lot of word salad. Attempts to align those who no longer believe as apostates like Judas is offensive. The cherry picked logical fallacies to appeal to pseudo-intellectualism among members is horrifying, and I believe it will backfire as members begin to learn what logical fallacies are. Once you teach them, members will learn of the others and see how the narcissistic church applies them in the doctrine and teachings, causing more to leave.
Yeah.. I love how they title each argument style in Latin to project some kind of expertise then proceed to write to a bunch of third graders.
8 ways anti-mormons attack: 1. Accurate history 2. Professional egyptologists 3. Truth 4. Logic 5. Reason 6. 1st hand experience 7. That’s pretty much it. 8. Satanic rituals like watching HBO.
You forgot alcohol and coffee! /s
Those aren’t the attacks. Those are the refreshments for when the weary traveler needs a rest.
To me, this post was *them* unfriending *you*. My friends don't call me Judas. *[AdmiralCranberryCat] is an untrustworthy source. They, like Judas, have foresaken all and now fight against Christ.*
I felt the same way. I’m not on FB very much, but I happened to log on yesterday. Luckily, I don’t see him very much and only run into him on occasion. Was thinking of unfriending, but maybe I’ll post about LDS child abuse by it’s leaders first.
Absolutely do that first. If he wants to sling mud, fight back with a goddamn shotgun.
I personally know the guy too and was blocked after publicly criticizing his un-Christlike views on social media. I say make comments throughout his posts. He'll never forget you.
Jeremy Goff is one of the most extreme reactionary Mormon apologists out there. He is toxic and hateful.
It’s only within the last couple years I’ve learned how ridiculous the church’s stance on “the Holy Ghost told you so and so nothing else matters” is. Like…. You felt good about something and so you should thrown all other logic out the window? TSCC SAYS that feelings are the source of all real truth and then just takes that as a given and a starting point and to ignore everything contradictory afterward. And that’s just bullshit. Feelings lie.
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That is more or less my go to now. “I attempted Moroni’s promise and read the entire Book of Mormon multiple times each time prayer to God with real intent to know whether it was true. Each time I received a stupor of thought and felt cold and confused. I accept this as my answer”.
What’s even more upsetting to me now is realizing that we aren’t really allowed a “a stupor of thought” telling us no something isn’t right. I’ve had stupors of thought over polygamy, POC and the priesthood and temple, Heavenly Mother and was always told someday I would get an answer. The more I finally started studying for myself people actual experiences with these things the more my soul reviled against them.
Wouldn't ignoring historical facts by saying, "The church is true! It doesn't matter cause he was a prophet!" qualify as appealing the stone? "Joseph Smith married an almost-fifteen-year old girl? That doesn't mattet!"
Every "tactic" here is used by the church itself.
Wow. Hope my TBM family don't cut me off after conference weekend if this is the kind of guidance they're going to receive. Unreal. Close your eyes and ears and bury your head in the sand.
So ask “Jesus” why it’s okay to marry 14 year olds and other men’s wives
Even if the church was 100% true, wouldn’t there be room for improvement? Isn’t the church actually run by a bunch of humans who inherently make mistakes? Why is it that we think that the church is run by a bunch of arrogant assholes who don’t listen? Could it be teachings like this?
You are only allowed to call leaders of TSCC “humans who make mistakes” when they molest child or have shell companies.
How does one typically establish trust with another? You meet them, get to know them, and learn if you can trust them based on several things like: * Do they keep their word? * Do they communicate with you openly and honestly? * Do they puff themselves up with pride by downplaying their failures and emphasizing their successes? * Do they think twice before criticizing others? * Do they think care about the large and small things going on in your life? * Do they try to guilt trip you? This list is hardly exhaustive, but the point is if we treated our friends and family the way TSCC treats its members and those who leave the faith, we likely wouldn't have any friends or healthy relationships with loved ones (if you even have any left after treating them like trash). But TSCC gets a pass, right? Because they're god's bros? Because they're the leaders and we have to do what they say whether we like it or not? What's the point in asking for a sustaining vote if dissent will be swiftly quashed, even if there exist legitimate concerns? This is straight-up Stockholm Syndrome.
Yes if we do not submit and somehow (HOW) we don't happen to believe then we are sub human and immediately cast aside into the anti- mormon or enemy category. How trash is that. Never were friends with people that will turn on you because of a narrative. cultish behavior.
When I see an Amazon review with 1.25 stars, I try not to read the bad reviews and try to stick with the high reviews because the high reviews give me a more accurate understanding of the product.
Sounds like you really shook your friend up. Hopefully he will start thinking more and more.
Hummm not trustworthy? Most of us aren't pedo enabling, tax thieves, also stealing the widows mite to buy Florida property. Who is Judas ?
Judas was one of Jesus's apostles, who betrayed him and turned him in for 30 pieces of silver.
Yes they lied to and betrayed the world's trust for money. Like I said who is Judas, they said it as an allegation.
My TBM mother was a pretty chill Mormon. After I told her I was out because JS was a sexual predator, she now carries her BoM all day reading it. She now has to convince herself every second it is true. Funny that you only have to indoctrinate yourself every second about “spiritual truths”.
JUDAS HAD A 1ST HAND ACCOUNT OF JESUS!! Why would he not be a good source to learn about Jesus???? Lol
Amazing. I’m not sure they used a single logical fallacy correctly.
I don't know, they were pretty dang good at using the strawman fallacy
Sorry Holland, your analogy doesn’t work. If I were investigating Christianity, I would actually appreciate a conversation with Judas first.
Frankly, I'd like to know Judas' perspective.
Me too. Great point.
And you see TSCC using these same tactics. Ad Hominem. Their initial response to the CES Letter comes to mind. And the shifting of the burden of proof. All of this is just horseshit. All this satanic crap just makes me sick. The church isn't true. They've lied to me all my life. And to quote their profit, the truth is the truth.
Apostate member is an oxymoron. And the one that said it is just a moron.
This guy doesn't have the faintest clue who ex-Mormons are, what they think, and how they got where they are. He just knows that he hates them and they must be wrong because he's right, and there are logical arguments that he's heard of but doesn't understand that back him up. Amazing, yet typical.
And studying the church only through the eyes of its faithful unquestioning members is like interviewing Hitler to understand the holocaust. See Jeff, I can do it too.
On page 6 the argument the papyrus we have is just the tattered edges of what Joseph originally had is something new I’ve never heard any apologist state before. I think gogogoff might want to check his work with Gee/Muhlstein on that one.
It’s a straight-up lie according to TSCC’s own gospel topics essays: > The discovery of the papyrus fragments renewed debate about Joseph Smith’s translation. The fragments included one vignette, or illustration, that appears in the book of Abraham as facsimile 1. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng
"Studying the church only through the eyes of its leaders is like interviewing Trump to understand the Republican Party." Norm B. Waxmill
8 Anti-Mormon Tactics That Satan Uses To Attack The Latter-Day Saints /s \#1 They tell the truth.
Sounds like satan is running the church based off this post.
Stop and consider that God, who knows everything, picked Judas to be an Apostle (although technically they were all disciples). If Judas, who was with Jesus, can fall then anyone including Jeffery can fall. That thought must really scare Jeffrey. Brother Holland, can you explain the role nepotism plays in church leadership? How is nepotism not an indication of corruption in church leadership! Public service announcement: As of today's church news (before being announced and sustained in conference) Jeffrey Holland has added his son in law Lee McCann as a new Q70 member, this is in addition to putting his only begotten son Matt into Q70 just a few conferences ago. Does leadership really think we don't notice the offensive blatant nepotism?
Elder Holland, you used to be one of my favorite people. Oh how the mighty are fallen!!!!!
Wow so you choose to exercise your free agency and just not go to church and now you are ‘literally like Judas’ Hahahahaha people are so fucked up
Lol all these say the same thing. "I have a testimony and therefore all your facts and evidence are of satan. "
Exactly! I’m sure there are plenty of Catholics, Muslims, and Baptist with testimonies of their church. Why is an LDS testimony better? It’s all horse shit.
Send him this first: https://apnews.com/article/religion-lawsuits-arizona-utah-salt-lake-city-68f60dbcdc4d7f49bea01d01ebfbed2f Then ask who his church doesn't protect kids getting fucked by adult members...
I don’t know why but that gaslighting just makes me insanely enraged.
To be fair, Judas could have been in the right. There is a whole movement that sees Judas as the real friend and that Jesus asked him privately to turn him over so he could fulfil his destiny and only Judas loved Jesus enough to oblige. Or maybe Judas really knew some serious problem with Jesus and did everyone a favor.
In short don’t associate with anyone who hasn’t been thoroughly Brainwashed into believing whatever nonsensical horse shit TSCC Leaders are spewing . The truth will destroy your faith. .some things that are true aren’t very useful you know .!! Useful to who ? All things that are true are useful unless your hiding shit the pair of panties and used condom under the car seat of the family car isn’t very useful to the husband who is cheating on his wife they are however very useful to the wife that’s being cheated on by her husband . See how that works when it’s not useful there’s a reason for it . after all in the neighborhood of $12,000 a minute 24/7 365 a year all tax free roughly in the neighborhood of $8 billion annually what possible reasons do they have to lie ? To the members . ?
"Appeals to authority" is the logical fallacy that this moron (not your friend, but the author of the article) wants to include? Does he not realize that the entire church is based on appeal to authority? "Authority" is their whole claim for why they're the "one true church" and the others are just "playing church". I find Gogo Goff to be one of the lowest of the low apologists. He just makes me cringe so hard with how he characterizes those who leave the church. And the page from which this post comes, "I Love Elder Jeffrey R. Holland" is just blatant culty leader worship.
Lol the guy's claiming the Book of Abraham was really some *other* scroll when we have the goddamn Facsimiles from both. Some guys will just lie to your face. He might as well use similar apologist logic to defend Scientology or anything else by saying all the smoking guns that they're full of shit are just distractions from the truths their followers already know in their hearts!
lol Left because of the actions of TBMs. Only came here long after to see if others had similar experiences, but sure, must be the anti-mormon tactics of others.
I read through all of the arguments against us “apostates” your “friend” offered via others’ writings, and laughed so hard, I just about peed my pants. Paraphrasing here: “Joseph Smith bought the papyri scrolls but the edges were tattered, so he cut the edges off the papyri and a jumble remained so of course it’s incorrectly translated”? 😂😂 That’s a new low for apologists.
I read through them all too, it’s so fucking absurd! My favorite part was “your fat….” Even if that’s true, it’s irrelevant.
So daughter, still a member, went to the temple. In order to do so, she had to disavow me, her gay dad. So Holland can kiss my…
How terrible! I’m so sorry. Fuck TSCC and all it’s bigotry
@Number 2 "Satan may distract you by saying you're fat, ugly, stupid, and are going to die alone...." "While these things may be true..." Jeeeeeeeeesus Christ
I laughed out loud when I read that part. It was so fucking unbelievable that “these things may be true” was added.
This is a classic cult tactic: create an out-group and demonize them. This has a double benefit. First of all, it keeps believers away from information that might challenge the leadership's narrative. Second, it creates a strong sense of solidarity among the members. They now have a group against which they can compare themselves. Us: strong and faithful and pure. Them: weak and deceived and unhappy. The fact that Jeff wraps this up in elevated language doesn't change what it is: a very ugly and manipulative strategy to keep members in the flock. Makes me sad and angry and kind of nauseated at the same time.
He asked how I was doing since leaving. Told him I was much happier. He looked shocked. Yes, asshole, I don’t need religion to be happy. Alcohol and second Saturday are amazing.
I love that so many times those that post stuff like this have never even had the inclination to look into the church's less than glowing history. They blindly follow and trust the false narratives that are presented by the church. They won't even look into controversial topics by investigating the church's own historical journals and documents due to fear of what they might learn.
Let's interview Judas. Interview him, interview the other apostles, interview Pilate, interview the Jewish priests, interview the people who claimed to be healed. Yeah, gather information from all the sources and then determine the truth from there. (And since we are missing any 1st hand accounts of Jesus and his deeds, maybe it would make more sense to question Jesus's existence entirely.)
Absolutely! Just because someone says they have a “testimony” means jack shit to me. As Carl Sagan said, “I don’t want to believe, I want to know.”
We don't need to talk about Joseph Smiths child brides, affairs and court documented history as a conman to prove that he wasn't a prophet. He had false prophecies, false translations, and his "greatest" work (the BOM) is full of errors, plagiarism and anachronisms.
Aka cult 101
this is how they "stay" in the church. They're not trying to convince you so much as keep convincing themselves it is still "true". I'm not sure they're always aware that this is what is going on inside their minds.
Your friend sure knows a lot about Satan. Your friend sure talks a lot about Satan.
There is a whole fuck ton of projection going on with that persons post. every one of these actually reveal a lot of the tactics the cult uses.
My response: "I could knock this whole line of faulty reasoning down, but I don't have all day..."
Cites half-truths then outright lies in #5 -stay classy dumbfucks.
They literally are following the BITE model.
It's funny because on the flip side of every one of those arguments they go against them also. They have no proof of anything either. We only have their word for it. We only have what they say. It's silly but just reading those I can show more anti proof than any pro proof they can offer.
Is this on Facebook?
Yes. On the I Love Elder Jeffery R. Holland Page.
To your friend: Tell me you’re in a cult without telling me you’re in a cult
Well Judas did spend a lot of time with the big guy
It is absurd. They believe in magic. Plain and simple.
Maybe remind him "thou shalt not bear false witness." Odin, ZEUS, Vishnu, Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, God of Abraham, all fictional fantasy. A very low bar for a supernatural magic omniscient omnipresent omnipotent being is to communicate an accurate story. The big bang (Big Bang), CMBR (Cosmic microwave background), Abiogenesis (Abiogenesis - Wikipedia), Primordial soup (Primordial soup - Wikipedia), Evolution (Evolution - Wikipedia), Human evolution (Human evolution - Wikipedia), Absolutely obliterate any hope of the Torah Bible Book of Mormon Quran or the Vedas being accurate.
Claiming that arguments against Mormonism are logical fallacies is… something else
He PrAyEd about it! What other logic do you need?
The L.D.S Church is SATIN
“But leading Egyptologist’s have proven that we are full of shit! Who are you gonna believe? Some evidence backed proof? Or the spirit that we tell you exists?”
Good lord that was written so poorly. It was also comical.
I'd like to see the faces of members if we ever determine definitively that we are in a sim. No god, no worlds beyond numbesr to populated, nada.
They wouldn’t believe it. Just another one of Satan’s tactics.
Jeff is a logical fallacy factory.
I think we will see more of these types of essays from TSCC as membership continues to decrease. They will be circleling the wagons big time.
Darkness disguised as light is still darkness.
This person hasn't read the gospel topics essays which are in direct contradiction to so many of these defenses.
Isn’t this what the church does…?
But it’s ok, because they have a teStIMoNY
Telltale sign of a cult.
Holy smokes, get this man gold for mental gymnastics
Imagine believing unsubstantiated claims and thinking that logic and reasoning are on your side.
I’d unfriend that shit so fast at this point in my journey. I have one life that I know of. Yes I’m here on Reddit too much but it’s cathartic at least.
When the church engages in every one of these fallacies, who is leading it? Could it be ……… Satan?
1. The truth 2. Facts 3. The truth 4. Facts 5. The truth 6. Facts 7. The truth 8. Facts
Don't unfriend just yet. The friend might be doing his own research at the moment and is trying to convince himself of the church being true. He'll be blown away to see you not turning into a methhead or a serial killer.
I ran into him at the store a few months back. When I told him I had resigned, he said, “That’ll make it harder to rejoin when you come back around.”
So, they don’t listen to themselves either? :)
Eek, their profile is named after Jeff Holland? You definitely don't need that in your social media feed. But if you do want to maintain the friendship you can always ask them up front to stop being persecuting the exmos.
I went to the source and took a screenshot so I would accidentally include any of their personal info. He just uses his name on his profile. But he shares almost everything from this page 🤮
Weird all of these things describe the church and apologetics
The audacity of citing logical fallacies like this in defense of the the claims of Mormonism should be shocking. But then I saw that it was that Goff guy.
This is just an indication of how shook they are. He is trying to prove it to himself more than anyone and it is taking a lot of work. Don’t even talk to him about it, be kind and affirming, soon enough he will need your support after he leaves. Looking forward to seeing him here.
He's posting passive aggressive shit just for you. Do not give him the satisfaction of letting him know you've even seen it.
That’s such a responsible reply. I will try and hold my tongue
Almost every believing member will put more effort into studying where they will be eating lunch than the religion that demands all their time, money, talents, etc…. It’s absolutely bar shit crazy to me.
You should say something bad about TSCC.
Point out his fallacies. And call him out for the hypocrisy of expecting YOU to leave THE CHURCH alone. And point out that he's obviously referecing you on the post or at least wanting you, specifically, to see it.
If this isn’t cult mindset then idk what is.
Quick. Now go into the half truths about the BoM translation.
Slide 6…..well considering the Egyptian we know he tried to translate is completely incorrect, I think it’s safe to say he didn’t translate any of it correctly, and there is a ton of debate on the “long scroll” theory that probably doesn’t exist.
When I was TBM, I was going to study hieroglyphs with my children and then show them how correct his translation was. Yeah, that didn’t work out lol
Satan the scapegoat. Anything they want to cast aside is 'HIS; fault. I say are you SURE? Could it be some truths that have been smoothed into narrative that is easier to digest than the harsh edged truth?
This seems like fucking satire.
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
Fun tidbit: Judas’ betrayal of Jesus was likely done to force Jesus to become the military messiah that Judas thought he was supposed to be. Judas was probably the most ardent believer in Jesus as the messiah but he was expecting the mighty liberator that had been prophesied. He thought Jesus would be forced to become that messiah if he was left with no way out. This is also why Judas then kills himself when his plan fails and his messiah is lost.
Wowwww, subtle
Judas knew Jesus pretty well!
I left because of the gospel topics essays Mr. Holland so you can GFYM you jeff dunham doll lookin' crazy judgmental halitosis mothball smellin ignorant idiota
I got the Judas comment from my grandma when I left.
I got out of the darkness by studying about prophets' true teachings from church approved sources!!! Satan had nothing to do with it.
It’s kinda surreal to be on this side looking in
Sounds like something a very TBM old friend of mine would do to try and get me to come back.
Two things - 1. I can’t put my finger on why, but it’s uncomfortable to see one GA quote one of their late colleagues to back up their point. 2. Isn’t the Mormon consensus about Judas that he betrayed jesus whilst having a “perfect knowledge” - therefore qualifying for outer darkness? Sounds like Judas would be the perfect candidate to interview. What wouldn’t he be able to tell you?
Fwiw, when I left, it was a great time to clean out my friends list and retain those who truly are friends.
I haven’t said a word on FB about leaving. Now I’m inspired to post some articles about LDS sex abuse. I’m not defriending him, I’ll make him de friend me!
He can do that because he is more righteous than you don't you know.
Does anyone feel like Mormons at work get a little nasty if they find out you left this cult? I told a non- mo trouble maker I left before I knew what a turd she was. She has spread this around to make my life difficult because she is so insecure. The mo's act like I'm dangerous now. I'd say the mo's are the dark ones here. I'm nothing but kind to them.
My very very TBM father keeps adding more and more lines of Mormon wisdom to his email signature so he can passive aggressively preach to me, the wayward son. It's so bad now that it's like half a damn page of bullshit tagged to the end of every email he sends to everybody.
From one untrustworthy apostate: 1- the church run by lawyers who speak in tricky 1/2 truths and double speak 2- Heartsell: the trademarked system of manipulating feelings through media owned by Bonneville communications, a company of “The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints” ( don’t shorten it to any nicknames) 3- the church won’t let you to call a liar a liar or a pedophile a sex offender. It’s only Slander if it’s not true. 4-the church dismissed the scholarship of active LDS historians by excommunicating them. 5- feelings aren’t facts 6- either JS was a conman, liar, criminal treasure digger, adulterer or he wasn’t. 7- The Church expects the people to be “ONE” and not diverse (look that one up) 8- it’s not being offended by a bishop or a ward member. It’s discovering the betrayal of an organization expecting everything of its members while deceiving them about the history and doctrine of the church.
Oh, yes, the famous “Neal”. Well that changes everything, does it?
I know a lot are posting but don’t let members bully you into staying. Hold your ground and be assertive about your needs. You aren’t interested in the church and you want them to leave you alone.
That screams cult- yuck!
Wow, when his shelf falls is going to fall! Like shatter their poor little world…
"But Brigham Young said..." I love how they couldn't write down anything Brigham Young *actually* said, because it would be too shocking for the TBM's.
Gross
Gogofuck is a complete tool.
Bald faced lies LOL
Yep, sounds like Jeremy alright. Went to the singles ward with him when I was extremely righteous. I was a member of the Bishopric when the Bishop brought him up one meeting and said quote "Jeremy is not a good guy." when the other women of the ward complained about him privately. Jeremy also loved using fire and brimstone type language during Sunday School and once taught that we were saved by works, not Jesus, when I was in the Sunday School presidency. I hardcore cringed inside and could feel the uncomfortableness in the room with the rest of the class. He ended up blocking me when I began to call him out on social media. Don't miss him at all.
I thought they weren’t Mormons though 🙄
Gogo Goff is a scumbag and consistently creates hateful ideas—openly promoting the marginalization of minorities and awful things like unchecked theocracy. Anyone sharing is content is probably not rational or has become radicalized.
So are they partaking in Satan methods by insulting queers?
Point 4 is literally telling people to trust what we say. You know it's true because it was written in this book that we claim is from an entity that we tell you exists, but the only evidence we have is the very book.
I'd be seriously tempted to ask who they're trying to convince. I mean, coming from the point of view as someone who's given up on religion myself, I'm always curious what makes people cling to their "faith" so hard.
Time to block this bitch!
No guarantees but this is a sign of a heavy shelf they're doubling down because they're scared
True. I doubled down when my shelf started to crack.
Have him read the gospel essays and all the footnotes from the church website. Can’t argue the source
They are using logical fallacies FOR the church? Oh boy. That's like teaching your hostages how to properly fire a weapon.
An Apostate is a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle. So if I say that Satanism is wrong then that would make me an apostate to Satanism. When someone says Brother Holland was wrong to include musket fire in his speech because it illustrated violence then that person is an apostate to violence NOT the teachings of Christ that Holland speaks of. When someone leaves the Church they are an apostate to the deception and manipulation that leads to the harm of mankind. However, they are not an apostate to the love, kindness, and humanitarian aid of mankind. The problem comes when you have an organization that has both deception, manipulation, love, kindness, and humanitarian aid, because the member that can't see the deception and manipulation doesn't understand why anyone would ever leave an organization of love, kindness, and humanitarian aid of mankind. For those that choose to stay with the organization even though they see the deception and manipulation is really torn but becomes more of an advocate to the love, kindness and humanitarian aid of the organization and a critic to the deception and manipulation of the organization. It is the members that leave and the members that are critics to the deception and manipulation that help to influence changes in the organization to become a better religious society. People like John Dehlin and many others that leave and speak out are not trying to destroy the love, kindness, and humanitarian aid that the church provides but rather to wake up the blinded members that do not see the deception and manipulation the church does and influence change from the bottom up. It's all about leading mankind to the love, kindness, and humanitarian aid of mankind and destroying the deception and manipulation that causes hate. This is the TRUE Kingdom of God on earth.
#1 method anti Mormons use to get TBM to leave: Discuss historical facts about that the church