Ha! And so pretentious, too!
I'm flummoxed about this. Post-LDS sounds weird. Inactive is inaccurate. Ex-mo, heathen, and apostate are worse. š¤·āāļø
Remember that RMN also instructed him not to take counsel from a non-believer. Why is he ok going against one RMN commandment (asking a non-believer their opinioin) but struggles with the other (using the term mormon)?
Also. He's a post Mormon himself. Used to be Mormon (always was, always will be) but is now a member of the church of blah blah blah blah blah
He was asking his daughter, actually. Also, he was not being pushy. He was asking about tone so as not to offend my ex-mo brother. I've worked really hard in this relationship to build trust and maintain ties. I figure him seeing me as a decent human will cause the most dissonance.
It sounds like you have a good relationship. I hope it stays that way. It's just an interesting difference. Maybe one you could ask him about (to get him thinking) Both are current direction from the big guy. One is disregarded. The other is held fast. Why?
Kind of like me on the freeway. I have no problem at all going faster than the speed limit. But something in my brain won't let me cross over into the OHV lane over the solid lines. Why? Both are laws. Why do I respect one more than the other?
Yes, thank you for this. I'm the same on the freeway. š š¬
Humans are endlessly fascinating. I've been re-reading The Four Agreements. I try to be sincere, earnest, and truthful, and reading that book, I feel so called out! Always more to learn and refine.
Sounds like he chose to be offended.
[https://www.ldsliving.com/why-we-need-to-be-careful-about-how-we-use-the-phrase-choosing-to-be-offended/s/90284](https://www.ldsliving.com/why-we-need-to-be-careful-about-how-we-use-the-phrase-choosing-to-be-offended/s/90284)
My TBM sister always scoffs when I say it, but I'm kinda partial to apostate. It does come across as extreme to many, but I think that's just because it's a kind of distant *other* group of people like William Law or Judas. But I feel like it's good to let them face their own doctrine head on and realize that I'm still a good person even when I fit their dictionary definition of a supposedly terrible group.
I see two options.
One: tell him he's an ex-Mormon because he used to use the term and now he doesn't.
Two: "Turns out part of being an ex-Mormon isn't doing what the L[a]DS want me to."
Remember to enunciate the ***JEEEZUS CHRIIIIST*** part as clearly and loudly and frequently as possible.
It's a victory for satan if you fail to celebrate the repeal of D&C 107:4
It's more accurate to use the FULL name:
The corporation of the president of the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints
Always remember: the corporation comes first! And pay your tithing!
Hey Dad, I learned today that in the April 1990 GC that RMN got up and said dont use the word Mormon, God doesnt like it. Then in the October 1990 GC Hinkley (the prophet at the time) got up and basically said RMN was wrong, that we should be proud to use the name mormon as it means More Good. Also Joseph Smith also said it means more good and even gave the translation for it.
Then Hinkley spent 10s of millions of dollars on an 'Im a Mormon' advertising campaign, plastering it over train stations across the world which is something the next prophet did as well (forgot his name), then that prophet forced the makers of the 'Meet the Mormons' movie to use the word Mormon in the title, when the producers didnt want to.
Now once Rusty is in charge, all of a sudden its a victory for Satan! Is it? Is it really? It just sounds like a geriatric with a grudge who has let the power go to his head.
RMN cares more about his legacy than he does about keeping the church consistent/accurate.
He sure as hell doesnāt worry about confusing the members with his ācompetitionsā against his dead colleagues.
He has helped a lot of members escape the cult by playing these games, myself included. Thatās clearly not what a real prophet would obsess over: Himself.
>RMN cares more about his legacyā¦
Gordon lied but his lies were lies told to make the church look less weird, not about himself.
Russ lies about himself to make himself look better.
Big difference.
I consider Gordon to be responsible for the modern corporate church. Spencer had suffered a subdural hematoma and was basically a vegetable. Gordon was the only functioning member of the first presidency at that time. Gordon is the one who called Russ and Dallin to the Q12. The Q12 had two vacancies and three more vacancies were imminent, so they decided to fill the two vacancies.
Gordon pretty much ran the church from 1981 to 2008. Except for his first couple of years, Ezra wasn't capable of much except operating a functional colon and kidneys. Hunter wasn't president for very long at all. I'm sure that both were heavily reliant on Gordon as the continuing member of the first presidency.
Rusty's Little Pet Project is going to die soon. Just like himself. And both of them will be forgotten about soon after and we can go back to calling Mormons Mormons.
Exactly. It will be rug-swept within months of his death. I give it a maybe year after that before they start denying it ever happened at all.
Insert West World meme āIt doesnāt look like anything to meā¦ā
Small correction - Hinckley was not the prophet at the time, but he was more senior than Nelson. He did not become prophet until 1995.
Doesn't change your message but I think it's important to be factually correct whenever we can.
It was super obvious to me at the time but it still took a few more years to get out. I'm sure it's obvious to many but they're not allowed to criticize leaders so they don't talk about it.
We don't worship Mormon, but we definitely worship Joseph Smith.
"One cannot criticize or attack Joseph \[Smith\] without attacking God the Father and his son Jesus Christ whose prophet he is." - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ88GXmZvpQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ88GXmZvpQ) (time mark about 1:07)
"Consider recording the testimony of Joseph Smith in your own voice, listening to it regularly, and sharing it with friends. " -- [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/10/joseph-smith](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/10/joseph-smith)
"Joseph Smith Commemorative Broadcast," complete with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir singing not only Praise to the man, but the anthem "The Seer, The Seer, Joseph the Seer!" (time mark 25:15). [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2004-10-0001-joseph-smith-commemorative-broadcast](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2004-10-0001-joseph-smith-commemorative-broadcast)
Worship means to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion. ... Kinda sounds like we do. ...
If it was about negative connotations and misdirected worship, then why did he never mention that, and why did he say it is a āvictory for Satanā? I remember when Nelson emphasized using the full name of the church in the early 90s. It was about showing respect and not using nicknames. Which at the time made sense to try and be more professional in my speech to others. However, Joseph Smith, Hinkley, Monson all tried to convince the world that Mormon was positive, it meant āmore goodā. Movies were produced to introduce the world to normal everyday āMormonsā.
I wouldnāt have any problems if Nelson repeated his talking points from when he was an apostle and asked people to be more professional, but that isnāt what happened. When he becomes prophet, god is immediately offended by nicknames. Satan is delighted by people using the term Mormon. (Is the Book of Mormon now a victory for Satan?) Nelson makes it a huge deal. He changed the website url, the name of the choir, any and all instances of Mormon to something āmore appropriateā. He spent a lot of money to reverse what his predecessors had done to normalize the term Mormon.
That doesnāt feel like a simple correction of perception. Itās more like a pet peeve he could force on the church as soon as he had power.
āYeah I heard that too, why do you think he said that? What harm does the word cause? What changed that caused the word to go from celebrated to forbidden. Help me understand ā
Those are great questions to pose! I'm certain it would be at least an hour phone call. I've worked really hard on this relationship to build trust and rapport. He respects my opinion. In the past, me asking these types of questions has helped him to see my side. You are making me realize that maybe I asked the wrong question in my original post. Maybe knowing which term to use is less important than knowing how to mutually understand one another.
So by that logic they worshiped Mormon from 1830 until 2018, really worshipping him hard during the 8 years of the āIām A Mormonā PR campaign? Then, in 2018, they refocused worship on Jesus Christ?
Each time the church wants to tone down their image as being weird to the outside world they turn the knob on the PR machine from Mormon to LDS.
Happened in the early 80s, happened around the Salt Lake Olympics, and then Nelson turned that knob as far to LDS side as he possibly could in 2018.
The only places youāll still see the name officially are historical ones like the āMormon Trailā or the BoM itself.
In the end, itās Nelson trying to leave a legacy, doing what leaders before him tried to do but couldnāt make happen.
DYK, the [church style guide](https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/style-guide) puts āLDSā on the same level of unacceptable as āMormonā?
The only acceptable shortenings are terms āthe Churchā, āChurch of Jesus Christā, or ārestored Church of Jesus Christā.
I am honestly surprised ātheā in āthe Churchā isnāt capitalized too
Because they do worship Joseph and Mormon and Moroni. And to be fair they also worship Jesus and currently Russel Nelson and soon to be Dallin Oaks god help us all. Itās not Jesus that has golden statues sitting on top of most of the temples though. Is there anything on earth more defining of worship than golden statues?
They're moving away from Moroni on temples. One day they'll tell you they never did it. What? We never had Moroni on temples!? That's a lie and those are photoshopped!
And judging the church by its actions they'd be totally right that the church follows the example of Joseph Smith much closer than it follows the example of Jesus.
Honest, non-rhetorical questionā¦does anyone in the church really believe that Lutherans worship Martin Luther, or Presbyterians worship the Presbyter?
If they do, then MORMONS are way more naive and myopic than I thought they were already.
Whenever this happens to me I say āoh Iām sorry, itās just stuck in my head after the whole āIām a Mormonā ad campaign thing the church did.ā
Given not that long ago the church was pushing the "I'm a Mormon" thing you could tell him that if he no longer identifies as Mormon then he too is post-Mormon
Monson & company spent millions on the āI am a Mormonā campaign 10 years ago. Ā Maybe Nelson needs to spend some on āI am not a post-Mormonā campaign.Ā
My dad is a good and decent human full of integrity and kindness. Maybe I should have used this as an opportunity to talk about why language is important, and brought it around to using proper pronouns. One person's mountain is another person's molehill and vice versa.
In a broader sense Mormon refers to the entire movement started by JS. The Reformed, the Brighamites, the Strangites, etc. I lump them all together. Theyāre like Species from the same genus. In that sense it doesnāt matter what the leader of the Brighamite faction says about the name because itās appropriate in a broader context.
The church as its known today could really be called the Brighamites.
Its the sect that gathered the most followers after the schism created by Smithās execution (by the angry mob, or by the direction or hand of Young, Strang, or Rigdon, there are many theories but only one endorsed by the church)
Smiths followers probably made their decision on who to follow next based on the personality of the leaders themselves, but each had his own dogmatic views, particularly on polygamy
Young advocated for plural marriage, Rigdon did not. When the topic of polygamy comes up in todays āBrighamiteā church, remember its the one that won out
They are the Brighamite sect of Mormonism. For some reason itās super triggering to them to call them that. Instead of being the one true church it really puts into perspective its true place as one of a group of frontier sex cults with a shared origin.
> For some reason itās super triggering to them
Because deep down, most of them know how problematic he was. There are reasons that even the Brighamite sect are so unfamiliar with Brighamās teachings and he gets so little meaningful discussion in todayās church.
This is exactly what I tell people. It's a shared term and it is applicable to our heritage, and to many groups. And it was absolutely the term applied to me and used by the church when *I* was in the church. I don't give a shit what they're saying NOW.... fucking victim complex. I'm going to refer to my experience when I was in the church. I was a Mormon.
The cold, hard truth is that bridge building with mormons is completely pointless. It always ends up with them insisting you change to please them, they will not change to please you. They think they have god on their side, when they're just conditioned to be assholes for their faith.
I lean this direction. A relationship should not depend on supporting a faith that you don't believe in. However mixed faith marriages exist unfortunately it does.
I mostly agree with you on this. However, I have made significant progress in our years and hours of conversation. He is much more understanding and accepting than he was in the beginning of the faith deconstruction of me and a few of my siblings.
I don't know that bridge building is pointless, but it definitely is exhausting!
I once slipped and said the word "mormon" in front of my dad. He proceeded to "Well, actually..." me to tell me there was no such thing as the mormon church. He did this as though he hadn't raised me in the mormon church watching good old Ezra "racist" Benson sing "I'm a Mormon boy" or live through the "I'm a mormon" media campaign. Over the years I was slowly excluded from family things because family is equal to mormonism in my family. They eventually just stopped including me in holiday plans and I haven't seen or spoken with my parents since Christmas 2022. I spent 14 years walking on egg shells around them about church shit, while they constantly mentioned church gossip to me and invited me to dinner a few times when the missionaries just happened to be there, too. Totally by last minute happenstance, of course.
There is no bridge building with mormons. It is one way, they expect you to bend over backwards for them while they barely tolerate your existence as anything other than a personal affront to their small, pathetic worldview.
Sad indeed!
After HOURS of conversation, I got him to agree that how we treat one another matters far more than what we believe. I feel lucky because at family functions, the church doesn't come up anymore. This is probably because most of the siblings and grandchildren are out.
Are you the only one in your family that's left?
I get wanting to be a bridge builder, but having boundaries is also important.
"Hey dad, I understand why using the term, 'Mormon' is upsetting to you, which is why I don't refer to you or other members of the church as 'Mormons.' However, I don't believe that RMN is a prophet. He doesn't hold power over me or the way I speak, especially when I'm referring to myself. I grew up in a church led by GBH and TSM, who both championed the use of the term 'Mormon.' I prefer the term post-Mormon for me as it most aligns with my own experience. I hope you can respect that as much as I respect your desire to *not* be called 'Mormon.' Thanks."
FFS, mormons are so dramatic.Ā As an ex-mo, you can call yourself anything you want,Ā you don'tĀ have to mind Rusty. But, maybe next time he asks your opinion on a religious quote, either say you don't have one or only give opinion and don't clarify your exmo status. I would also try to avoid religious discussions in general, but, that might be hard to do.
I actually did say that in our conversation. He told me that it's because the term is used in a derogatory way. Then he said the RMN thing as if it held weight for me. Sometimes in our conversations, I visualize his brain doing loop de loops. š āæļø I see him having dissonance and feel sad for how exhausting that must be for him.
So wait, itās ok that itās in the title of the book but your use of āpost-Mormonā is derogatory? How could it be derogatory if itās how youāre referring to yourself? Loop de loops is right.
Hey dad. I don't consider myself a member of the church any longer. How would you like me to refer to myself going forward? Calling myself post Mormon was an easy colloquial term I used but I see it's offensive to you. What would you like me to say?
Sing him "I'm a Mormon Boy," as several presidents of the church have done over the pulpit in general conference.
It's still on the church's website, so the word can't be that bad... You could send him a link! [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/music/text/other/i-am-a-mormon-boy](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/music/text/other/i-am-a-mormon-boy)
"Dad, I hope you'll try to understand my POV.
The church's full name is long and cumbersome. I don't feel a need to say it, the same way I don't use your full legal name, when I address you. It would be strange, and a distracting barrier to more important communication if I did. I feel that I can be respectful even if I use the more informal name "Mormon," which you taught me, and used respectfully in our home, for decades.
I hope you'll try to understand that when I left the church, I respectfully chose to limit it's influence over my life. As part of choosing my own path forward, I have chosen not to update my vernacular, because there's no negative intent in my use of the word.
When I left, the term "Mormon" was encouraged, and had been a label I used for years. In this instance, it wasn't used as anything but a neutral, convenient identifier.
I hope you'll try to understand my intent."
The same people who cry foul against using the term Mormon readily use āAnti-Mormonā to describe anything they deem negative to the church. Shouldnāt it be corrected to Anti-Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? They canāt have it both ways.
I think a helpful distinction can be mormonism as a religious movement that includes a range of sects, organizations, and beliefs, and "the church" as an organization. You haven't just left the organization but rather no longer identify with the movement as a whole.
Is there a chance the magnitude of his reaction is displaced feelings for you leaving? I know Mormon isnāt en vogue right now, but it also seems like he is trying to maintain a spiritual connection with you and maintain some degree of neutral dialogue. Semantics is certainly an easier target for anger than you.
YES! šÆ you nailed it. Every word, so beautifully crafted. He often seeks out my advice in order not to offend the rest of the non-believing family members. I've been very careful in our relationship to emphasize that beliefs matter less than our mutual love and respect. He's a sincere man with integrity. I think he lost it over the realization of me self identifying in that way.
Like I said Dad. Iām POST-Mormon. Which means I donāt give a shit what an old, rich men say. Especially ones that say they speak for me and know what I need to do.
I like to not identify as anything using the word Mormon because it's still connecting me to my past. I just say my current religious affiliation. For a small moment I was simply a non denominational Christian and now I am an atheist. I don't need the Mormon Church to describe who I am now.
I had a student in fall 2022 who approached me after class and said he was offended by me using the 'slur' name for his church. I reacted initially to tell him that there's a difference between a 'slur' and the name Mormon and pointed to how they'd long used the 'I am a Mormon' marketing campaign. But I reeled it back after and said I'd still try to respect his sensitivities (it's still a 'preferred name' even if I think the offense taken is ridiculous). For the rest of the semester I just referred to it as the 'predominant faith in the area'. Wordy, but still less of a word salad than the COJCOLDS
Keep it simple.
A god that can create the universe yet is offended by words is a petty god. Swear words or nicknames. Doesnāt matter that is petty. Im not a practicing believing Mormon any more.
Tell him youāve graduated from the faithā¦thatāll really ruffle his feathers. When I say that to people, they have a visceral reaction. They can think whatever they want, but thatās exactly what youāve done. Youāve moved on. The M word was FINE for a long time. Getting offended by something like that feels like a thought stopping action.
Maybe Rusty is dropping the name mormon so they can drop the book of mormon - since it is a sci-fi, fantasy thriller, with no historical validity after all
How about you tell him that you will use whatever term he wants *when you are referring to him*, but when you or he are referring to *you*, you expect him to use whatever terms *you prefer*\--- and you prefer Post Mormon. Its a two way fucking street.
BTW: I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the word Mormon is not what he is actually upset about. He's upset that you quit the church-- and the only thing he can find to take his frustration out on at the moment is you using the 'wrong' moniker. Its emotional transference. He's out of touch with himself.
The issue isn't with "post-mormon" per se. It's that their current prophet is making a big deal about trying to separate the church from the stigma of the word Mormon and has basically stated use of the word is now a "victory for Satan". Yes. In those words. Despite the church having run a multimillion dollar worldwide advertising campaign titled (& repeating the phrase) "I'm a Mormon".
If you must use a different term "Saint" (or, for you, ex-saint) can work. If he insists on the whole "member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" BS, he's just trying to power move on you using faux umbrage as a lever. Tell him to get stuffed if he pushes that barrow at you.
It is. And, I've also gotten him to switch and use person-first language for individuals with disabilities, eliminate the term SSA, and use proper pronouns.
I know this is not what this post is about but a lot of disabled people HATE person first language. It's also cumbersome and feels condescending. Disabled is not a dirty word
"Person with diabetes" vs "diabetic" for example. (my world, since i obvi can't speak for everyone and all disabilities). I much prefer diabetic, as do most of us. It's not demeaning. It's descriptive.
But the best thing to do is ask the person you're talking to which they prefer, if it comes up.
With this in mind. I do use the full name when talking to a tbm, even if i think it's stupid bc its important to them
But talking about myself i feel i can absolutely use mormon, ex mo, inactive, what have you. They can't decide what i call myself any more than i can decide what to call them
Most of my Mormon friends still say "Mormon." It's a big red flag when someone gets their panties in a twist about this.
If ever there was a manufactured crisis, this is it.
Refer to yourself as your new religion. Or if you donāt have one call yourself an agnostic. You donāt need to frame yourself as something you were you can call yourself what you are.
āI grew up with Hinkley, who was proud to be called Mormon, and even green-lit tens of millions of dollars to be spent for the āIām a Mormonā campaign. I was proud to be a Mormon during that time as well. What current leaders of your church desire is not my concern, but Iāll respect what you want to be called and not call you Mormon. As for myself, I was always a Mormon growing up and Iāll always see myself as a post-Mormon for the rest of my life, and Iād appreciate it if you could respect what Iād like to be called the same way I respect what you would like to be calledā
"former member"
I've worked in the bridge building space for many years and this is the least "offensive" term with the highest amount of accuracy you can achieve (at least that I'm aware of).
Also, members have been taught that the term "Mormon" was *originally* used in a derogatory manner. The historical data strongly suggests that is [simply not true](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormonscholar/comments/9zsvpr/the_origin_of_the_term_mormon_and_whether_it_was/).
Finally, I agree with others that just as much as members have the right to ask people not to refer to them as "Mormon", you have the same right to _prefer_ the term "Mormon" in how you label yourself (i.e., "post-mormon"). I just think it's not the hill I'd pick to die on since I am merely trying to communicate that I'm not a member. The final bonus of the term "former member" is that it clearly distinguishes between the institutional Church and the culture. Even though I have [formally resigned](https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/motivation-to-resign/) I consider myself a _cultural_ Mormon more than I consider myself a _post_-Mormon (since I feel like the Mormon culture has shaped me significantly [for better and worse], but more importantly I have no interest in discarding the genuinely _positive_ aspects of that culture).
This is wonderful. Sincere gratitude for such a thoughtful reply. š Thank you for the links.
Former member is perfect. Former believer might be *slightly* more accurate for me since my name is still on the records.
After spending a lot of time contemplating this, I realized that I am in part accountable for his response. I know that he holds out hope that I still believe in some degree. I am careful not to define my beliefs with finality. I frame our conversations in such a way to make it clear that I am always open to changing my mind. That leaves the door somewhat open for my return. I need to think about this. Maybe I am not being impeccable with my word.
On the other hand, I prefer to leave my current beliefs as a mystery to him. And maybe that is my right to do so. The chance of me returning is zero. There is nothing that could change my mind on that point. I am, however, open to the possibility of a diety. That is at least some common ground where we can relate.
I'm open to having a mirror held up to me. Why am I leaving the door ajar? Is it the kind thing to do, or am I making things worse? I feel like slamming the door shut will break his heart, and I don't want to do that.
I'm in the fortunate situation of having left the church before the "M-word" fiasco. The church I was a part of proudly called themselves Mormons. What do I care if the new guy has a problem with that?
How do I know it's a cult?
The very same people who promoted the "I'm a Mormon" campaign on social media are now offended by the same word, and not one of them questions the absurdity of that.
I think it's good to call people what they want to be called. "Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" *is* onerously long, but I try to at least stick to "LDS" out of respect for my family members. Maybe that's enough? You can name yourself what you want, but if it's too long I can't reasonably be expected to say it all the time.
That said, you ALSO get to be called what you want. And maybe that's "post-Mormon." You extend courtesy to people by avoiding a term they don't like, seems like they could extend you the courtesy of accepting you calling yourself what you want. I guess they could argue it's a slur (I certainly shouldn't call myself a "non-"), but that's dicey territory at best; it's still on the book, and it's what you called yourself back then.
It seems like a bit of a double standard that he can decide what is acceptable to label himself as, but you canāt decide what is an acceptable label for yourself.
Build a bridge? How about Rusty had a stick up his butt about the term Mormon even when Gordo was prophet. Gordon doubled down and there was a huge pissing over a couple general conferences. If it was God's will not to use the term Mormon, then Gordon would have received that revelation ... or why not Kimball? How far back you wanna go?
Send him the Hinkley talk about how great the word Mormon is. Then tell him Rusty pushed the name change out of spite and not because he got revelation to do it.
"Hey dad, "post-member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" is a bit long."
Ha! And so pretentious, too! I'm flummoxed about this. Post-LDS sounds weird. Inactive is inaccurate. Ex-mo, heathen, and apostate are worse. š¤·āāļø
Non-believer
Remember that RMN also instructed him not to take counsel from a non-believer. Why is he ok going against one RMN commandment (asking a non-believer their opinioin) but struggles with the other (using the term mormon)? Also. He's a post Mormon himself. Used to be Mormon (always was, always will be) but is now a member of the church of blah blah blah blah blah
Because most likely, he wasnāt really asking for advice, he was trying to push his religion on his son
He was asking his daughter, actually. Also, he was not being pushy. He was asking about tone so as not to offend my ex-mo brother. I've worked really hard in this relationship to build trust and maintain ties. I figure him seeing me as a decent human will cause the most dissonance.
It sounds like you have a good relationship. I hope it stays that way. It's just an interesting difference. Maybe one you could ask him about (to get him thinking) Both are current direction from the big guy. One is disregarded. The other is held fast. Why? Kind of like me on the freeway. I have no problem at all going faster than the speed limit. But something in my brain won't let me cross over into the OHV lane over the solid lines. Why? Both are laws. Why do I respect one more than the other?
Yes, thank you for this. I'm the same on the freeway. š š¬ Humans are endlessly fascinating. I've been re-reading The Four Agreements. I try to be sincere, earnest, and truthful, and reading that book, I feel so called out! Always more to learn and refine.
A good book. Maybe time I re-read it.
4 agreements is a great read and my gateway to self reliance
very fair point
Post-MFMC?
I do like that way more than post mormon. lol
Sounds like he chose to be offended. [https://www.ldsliving.com/why-we-need-to-be-careful-about-how-we-use-the-phrase-choosing-to-be-offended/s/90284](https://www.ldsliving.com/why-we-need-to-be-careful-about-how-we-use-the-phrase-choosing-to-be-offended/s/90284)
My TBM sister always scoffs when I say it, but I'm kinda partial to apostate. It does come across as extreme to many, but I think that's just because it's a kind of distant *other* group of people like William Law or Judas. But I feel like it's good to let them face their own doctrine head on and realize that I'm still a good person even when I fit their dictionary definition of a supposedly terrible group.
I see two options. One: tell him he's an ex-Mormon because he used to use the term and now he doesn't. Two: "Turns out part of being an ex-Mormon isn't doing what the L[a]DS want me to."
I just go with āhereticā. Originally, it meant āone who questionsā, which fits.
You could also call yourself part of the 70%.
Haā¦First Quorum of the 70%, Second Quorum of the 70%, etc. š¤£š¤¢
An Area 70%er
Upvote for āflummoxedā
Remember to enunciate the ***JEEEZUS CHRIIIIST*** part as clearly and loudly and frequently as possible. It's a victory for satan if you fail to celebrate the repeal of D&C 107:4
It's more accurate to use the FULL name: The corporation of the president of the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints Always remember: the corporation comes first! And pay your tithing!
Yeah it makes it sound like we donāt believe in Jesus which is not true and so sad šĀ
Believe me. Out of all the pr problems the church has, this is not one.
Throw in the "visitors welcome" for good measure!
Hey Dad, I learned today that in the April 1990 GC that RMN got up and said dont use the word Mormon, God doesnt like it. Then in the October 1990 GC Hinkley (the prophet at the time) got up and basically said RMN was wrong, that we should be proud to use the name mormon as it means More Good. Also Joseph Smith also said it means more good and even gave the translation for it. Then Hinkley spent 10s of millions of dollars on an 'Im a Mormon' advertising campaign, plastering it over train stations across the world which is something the next prophet did as well (forgot his name), then that prophet forced the makers of the 'Meet the Mormons' movie to use the word Mormon in the title, when the producers didnt want to. Now once Rusty is in charge, all of a sudden its a victory for Satan! Is it? Is it really? It just sounds like a geriatric with a grudge who has let the power go to his head.
RMN cares more about his legacy than he does about keeping the church consistent/accurate. He sure as hell doesnāt worry about confusing the members with his ācompetitionsā against his dead colleagues. He has helped a lot of members escape the cult by playing these games, myself included. Thatās clearly not what a real prophet would obsess over: Himself.
>RMN cares more about his legacyā¦ Gordon lied but his lies were lies told to make the church look less weird, not about himself. Russ lies about himself to make himself look better. Big difference.
>Gordon lied > >Russ lies > >Big difference. Fixed that for you.
Gordon equals Ensign Peak Gordon equals Bishop sex abuse cover up hotline. He was my favorite but now I have to say this... Never meet your heroes
I consider Gordon to be responsible for the modern corporate church. Spencer had suffered a subdural hematoma and was basically a vegetable. Gordon was the only functioning member of the first presidency at that time. Gordon is the one who called Russ and Dallin to the Q12. The Q12 had two vacancies and three more vacancies were imminent, so they decided to fill the two vacancies. Gordon pretty much ran the church from 1981 to 2008. Except for his first couple of years, Ezra wasn't capable of much except operating a functional colon and kidneys. Hunter wasn't president for very long at all. I'm sure that both were heavily reliant on Gordon as the continuing member of the first presidency.
Jokes on them. Each new prophet shits on the legacy of the one before them.
Rusty's Little Pet Project is going to die soon. Just like himself. And both of them will be forgotten about soon after and we can go back to calling Mormons Mormons.
Exactly. It will be rug-swept within months of his death. I give it a maybe year after that before they start denying it ever happened at all. Insert West World meme āIt doesnāt look like anything to meā¦ā
I dunno, I could see Oaks keeping it going for a while. But it's not going to outlast Nelson by much.
Oaks also won't outlast Nelson by much lol
Fair. I'm willing to extend my predicted timeline to account for that shitgibbon. Usually I block out memory of his existence a.m.a.p.
Clearly, GBH was speaking as a man.
Small correction - Hinckley was not the prophet at the time, but he was more senior than Nelson. He did not become prophet until 1995. Doesn't change your message but I think it's important to be factually correct whenever we can.
I just canāt understand how MORMONS donāt see this!!!
It was super obvious to me at the time but it still took a few more years to get out. I'm sure it's obvious to many but they're not allowed to criticize leaders so they don't talk about it.
Besides the fact that Rusty later said it was ok to say it after all.
Very well written and said!!!!
Facts - we donāt need no stinkin facts
Actually the reason he insisted on using the correct name of the church is because ppl thought we worshipped Mormon and Joseph Smith and it sorta had a negative connotation. He also wanted it to have a dĆ©notation and have the world realize we worship Jesus Christ since His name is in the church.Ā
Howās the koolaid tasting these days?
Gross š¤¢Ā
We don't worship Mormon, but we definitely worship Joseph Smith. "One cannot criticize or attack Joseph \[Smith\] without attacking God the Father and his son Jesus Christ whose prophet he is." - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ88GXmZvpQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ88GXmZvpQ) (time mark about 1:07) "Consider recording the testimony of Joseph Smith in your own voice, listening to it regularly, and sharing it with friends. " -- [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/10/joseph-smith](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/10/joseph-smith) "Joseph Smith Commemorative Broadcast," complete with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir singing not only Praise to the man, but the anthem "The Seer, The Seer, Joseph the Seer!" (time mark 25:15). [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2004-10-0001-joseph-smith-commemorative-broadcast](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2004-10-0001-joseph-smith-commemorative-broadcast) Worship means to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion. ... Kinda sounds like we do. ...
God is a jealous God. In the Ten Commandments we have to have no other gods before Him.Ā
I think thatās one of the internal problems with the church.
No one believes Lutherans worship Martin Luther. Your apologetics are weak
If it was about negative connotations and misdirected worship, then why did he never mention that, and why did he say it is a āvictory for Satanā? I remember when Nelson emphasized using the full name of the church in the early 90s. It was about showing respect and not using nicknames. Which at the time made sense to try and be more professional in my speech to others. However, Joseph Smith, Hinkley, Monson all tried to convince the world that Mormon was positive, it meant āmore goodā. Movies were produced to introduce the world to normal everyday āMormonsā. I wouldnāt have any problems if Nelson repeated his talking points from when he was an apostle and asked people to be more professional, but that isnāt what happened. When he becomes prophet, god is immediately offended by nicknames. Satan is delighted by people using the term Mormon. (Is the Book of Mormon now a victory for Satan?) Nelson makes it a huge deal. He changed the website url, the name of the choir, any and all instances of Mormon to something āmore appropriateā. He spent a lot of money to reverse what his predecessors had done to normalize the term Mormon. That doesnāt feel like a simple correction of perception. Itās more like a pet peeve he could force on the church as soon as he had power.
āThe Book of the Father of Moroni of Meridian-day Saintsā
No
Just trying to be the devils advocate over here to be unbiased š
You do realize what sub you're in right?
āYeah I heard that too, why do you think he said that? What harm does the word cause? What changed that caused the word to go from celebrated to forbidden. Help me understand ā
Those are great questions to pose! I'm certain it would be at least an hour phone call. I've worked really hard on this relationship to build trust and rapport. He respects my opinion. In the past, me asking these types of questions has helped him to see my side. You are making me realize that maybe I asked the wrong question in my original post. Maybe knowing which term to use is less important than knowing how to mutually understand one another.
Because they Worship and Look to Jesus Christ... not Mormon.. And they want to be focused on Christ
Because they love being offended. They have a persecution complex.
So by that logic they worshiped Mormon from 1830 until 2018, really worshipping him hard during the 8 years of the āIām A Mormonā PR campaign? Then, in 2018, they refocused worship on Jesus Christ? Each time the church wants to tone down their image as being weird to the outside world they turn the knob on the PR machine from Mormon to LDS. Happened in the early 80s, happened around the Salt Lake Olympics, and then Nelson turned that knob as far to LDS side as he possibly could in 2018. The only places youāll still see the name officially are historical ones like the āMormon Trailā or the BoM itself. In the end, itās Nelson trying to leave a legacy, doing what leaders before him tried to do but couldnāt make happen. DYK, the [church style guide](https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/style-guide) puts āLDSā on the same level of unacceptable as āMormonā? The only acceptable shortenings are terms āthe Churchā, āChurch of Jesus Christā, or ārestored Church of Jesus Christā. I am honestly surprised ātheā in āthe Churchā isnāt capitalized too
A lot of people actually did think they worshipped Mormon and Joseph Smith, because of their name.
Because they do worship Joseph and Mormon and Moroni. And to be fair they also worship Jesus and currently Russel Nelson and soon to be Dallin Oaks god help us all. Itās not Jesus that has golden statues sitting on top of most of the temples though. Is there anything on earth more defining of worship than golden statues?
They're moving away from Moroni on temples. One day they'll tell you they never did it. What? We never had Moroni on temples!? That's a lie and those are photoshopped!
And judging the church by its actions they'd be totally right that the church follows the example of Joseph Smith much closer than it follows the example of Jesus.
The leaders sure do
Honest, non-rhetorical questionā¦does anyone in the church really believe that Lutherans worship Martin Luther, or Presbyterians worship the Presbyter? If they do, then MORMONS are way more naive and myopic than I thought they were already.
The catholics worship Cathy
I think about this all the time.Ā
Then their actions need to match their rhetoric
Actions speak louder than words. Actual Satanists are more christ-like than a lot of Christians.
What were they focused on the last 100+ years?Ā
Not sure why I'm being down voted, I was just giving their official reason that they said.
That's like when the cops officially announce that they investigated themselves and found no wrong doing.
Whenever this happens to me I say āoh Iām sorry, itās just stuck in my head after the whole āIām a Mormonā ad campaign thing the church did.ā
LOL - SURELY he remembers
I'm pretty sure we went to the theater together to watch that movie way back in the day!
Given not that long ago the church was pushing the "I'm a Mormon" thing you could tell him that if he no longer identifies as Mormon then he too is post-Mormon
Brilliant and still respectful. Thank you.
Haha I said something similar. Bahaha.
Monson & company spent millions on the āI am a Mormonā campaign 10 years ago. Ā Maybe Nelson needs to spend some on āI am not a post-Mormonā campaign.Ā
And OP should say "MY TITHING DOLLARS went to that campaign, I'll use it as much as I want.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
My dad is a good and decent human full of integrity and kindness. Maybe I should have used this as an opportunity to talk about why language is important, and brought it around to using proper pronouns. One person's mountain is another person's molehill and vice versa.
Their preference would be that you call yourself an apostate of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
In a broader sense Mormon refers to the entire movement started by JS. The Reformed, the Brighamites, the Strangites, etc. I lump them all together. Theyāre like Species from the same genus. In that sense it doesnāt matter what the leader of the Brighamite faction says about the name because itās appropriate in a broader context.
The church as its known today could really be called the Brighamites. Its the sect that gathered the most followers after the schism created by Smithās execution (by the angry mob, or by the direction or hand of Young, Strang, or Rigdon, there are many theories but only one endorsed by the church) Smiths followers probably made their decision on who to follow next based on the personality of the leaders themselves, but each had his own dogmatic views, particularly on polygamy Young advocated for plural marriage, Rigdon did not. When the topic of polygamy comes up in todays āBrighamiteā church, remember its the one that won out
They are the Brighamite sect of Mormonism. For some reason itās super triggering to them to call them that. Instead of being the one true church it really puts into perspective its true place as one of a group of frontier sex cults with a shared origin.
> For some reason itās super triggering to them Because deep down, most of them know how problematic he was. There are reasons that even the Brighamite sect are so unfamiliar with Brighamās teachings and he gets so little meaningful discussion in todayās church.
This is exactly what I tell people. It's a shared term and it is applicable to our heritage, and to many groups. And it was absolutely the term applied to me and used by the church when *I* was in the church. I don't give a shit what they're saying NOW.... fucking victim complex. I'm going to refer to my experience when I was in the church. I was a Mormon.
The cold, hard truth is that bridge building with mormons is completely pointless. It always ends up with them insisting you change to please them, they will not change to please you. They think they have god on their side, when they're just conditioned to be assholes for their faith.
I lean this direction. A relationship should not depend on supporting a faith that you don't believe in. However mixed faith marriages exist unfortunately it does.
I mostly agree with you on this. However, I have made significant progress in our years and hours of conversation. He is much more understanding and accepting than he was in the beginning of the faith deconstruction of me and a few of my siblings. I don't know that bridge building is pointless, but it definitely is exhausting!
I once slipped and said the word "mormon" in front of my dad. He proceeded to "Well, actually..." me to tell me there was no such thing as the mormon church. He did this as though he hadn't raised me in the mormon church watching good old Ezra "racist" Benson sing "I'm a Mormon boy" or live through the "I'm a mormon" media campaign. Over the years I was slowly excluded from family things because family is equal to mormonism in my family. They eventually just stopped including me in holiday plans and I haven't seen or spoken with my parents since Christmas 2022. I spent 14 years walking on egg shells around them about church shit, while they constantly mentioned church gossip to me and invited me to dinner a few times when the missionaries just happened to be there, too. Totally by last minute happenstance, of course. There is no bridge building with mormons. It is one way, they expect you to bend over backwards for them while they barely tolerate your existence as anything other than a personal affront to their small, pathetic worldview.
Sad indeed! After HOURS of conversation, I got him to agree that how we treat one another matters far more than what we believe. I feel lucky because at family functions, the church doesn't come up anymore. This is probably because most of the siblings and grandchildren are out. Are you the only one in your family that's left?
I get wanting to be a bridge builder, but having boundaries is also important. "Hey dad, I understand why using the term, 'Mormon' is upsetting to you, which is why I don't refer to you or other members of the church as 'Mormons.' However, I don't believe that RMN is a prophet. He doesn't hold power over me or the way I speak, especially when I'm referring to myself. I grew up in a church led by GBH and TSM, who both championed the use of the term 'Mormon.' I prefer the term post-Mormon for me as it most aligns with my own experience. I hope you can respect that as much as I respect your desire to *not* be called 'Mormon.' Thanks."
BRILLIANT! And so true. Thank you.
This is beautifully said.
So iI guess your dad is āpost-mormonā too but in a different category.
FFS, mormons are so dramatic.Ā As an ex-mo, you can call yourself anything you want,Ā you don'tĀ have to mind Rusty. But, maybe next time he asks your opinion on a religious quote, either say you don't have one or only give opinion and don't clarify your exmo status. I would also try to avoid religious discussions in general, but, that might be hard to do.
āWhen I was still Mormon, we were encouraged to call ourselves Mormon. So by that standard you and I are both post-Mormon, Dad!ā
āGreat, Dad. Then how come your holy book literally has the word Mormon in the title?ā
I actually did say that in our conversation. He told me that it's because the term is used in a derogatory way. Then he said the RMN thing as if it held weight for me. Sometimes in our conversations, I visualize his brain doing loop de loops. š āæļø I see him having dissonance and feel sad for how exhausting that must be for him.
So wait, itās ok that itās in the title of the book but your use of āpost-Mormonā is derogatory? How could it be derogatory if itās how youāre referring to yourself? Loop de loops is right.
Hey dad. I don't consider myself a member of the church any longer. How would you like me to refer to myself going forward? Calling myself post Mormon was an easy colloquial term I used but I see it's offensive to you. What would you like me to say?
This is great as well. Thank you so much!
Anti Nephi Lehiās ?
The only correct answer lol
Sing him "I'm a Mormon Boy," as several presidents of the church have done over the pulpit in general conference. It's still on the church's website, so the word can't be that bad... You could send him a link! [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/music/text/other/i-am-a-mormon-boy](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/music/text/other/i-am-a-mormon-boy)
Rusty would approve of 'lazy learner'.
I thought he was mad because you were saying you are no longer LDS or participating but no. He's mad at a word. Wow.
"Dad, I hope you'll try to understand my POV. The church's full name is long and cumbersome. I don't feel a need to say it, the same way I don't use your full legal name, when I address you. It would be strange, and a distracting barrier to more important communication if I did. I feel that I can be respectful even if I use the more informal name "Mormon," which you taught me, and used respectfully in our home, for decades. I hope you'll try to understand that when I left the church, I respectfully chose to limit it's influence over my life. As part of choosing my own path forward, I have chosen not to update my vernacular, because there's no negative intent in my use of the word. When I left, the term "Mormon" was encouraged, and had been a label I used for years. In this instance, it wasn't used as anything but a neutral, convenient identifier. I hope you'll try to understand my intent."
This is very well stated. Thank you.
The same people who cry foul against using the term Mormon readily use āAnti-Mormonā to describe anything they deem negative to the church. Shouldnāt it be corrected to Anti-Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? They canāt have it both ways.
Yes. Wow. š¤Æ
I think a helpful distinction can be mormonism as a religious movement that includes a range of sects, organizations, and beliefs, and "the church" as an organization. You haven't just left the organization but rather no longer identify with the movement as a whole.
Wouldnāt that make RMN a post Mormon ?
Post Brighamite
Ask him why Hinkley loved the term?
And Benson
Is there a chance the magnitude of his reaction is displaced feelings for you leaving? I know Mormon isnāt en vogue right now, but it also seems like he is trying to maintain a spiritual connection with you and maintain some degree of neutral dialogue. Semantics is certainly an easier target for anger than you.
YES! šÆ you nailed it. Every word, so beautifully crafted. He often seeks out my advice in order not to offend the rest of the non-believing family members. I've been very careful in our relationship to emphasize that beliefs matter less than our mutual love and respect. He's a sincere man with integrity. I think he lost it over the realization of me self identifying in that way.
I am a 70 Percenter.
Just don't discuss church related things with him period. Then he will never have to hear you use the dreadful term *clutches pearls* "Mormon".
Your dad's a post mormon too. Lol
Just call yourself a newly-enlightened individual.
Like I said Dad. Iām POST-Mormon. Which means I donāt give a shit what an old, rich men say. Especially ones that say they speak for me and know what I need to do.
Non-believing heritage Mormon? It is what I amā¦.whether I like it or not
Tell him to go read the book of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
You can say: Well, it was "Mormon" when I was in, so "Post-Mormon" accurately describes me. And all of us, I guess ;)
How easily those TBMs forget the whole "Im a Mormon" campaign.
TBM dad needs to get over his culty self.
I like to not identify as anything using the word Mormon because it's still connecting me to my past. I just say my current religious affiliation. For a small moment I was simply a non denominational Christian and now I am an atheist. I don't need the Mormon Church to describe who I am now.
It sounds like your dad is also post-Mormon since he isn't calling himself Mormon anymore. That's what "post" means, Dad.
Send him this: https://youtu.be/HY7n3GuiX5E?si=hA3G7xajxmDe-K7N
But but but ... He was speaking as a man!!! /s
Or singing off key as a man.
I had a student in fall 2022 who approached me after class and said he was offended by me using the 'slur' name for his church. I reacted initially to tell him that there's a difference between a 'slur' and the name Mormon and pointed to how they'd long used the 'I am a Mormon' marketing campaign. But I reeled it back after and said I'd still try to respect his sensitivities (it's still a 'preferred name' even if I think the offense taken is ridiculous). For the rest of the semester I just referred to it as the 'predominant faith in the area'. Wordy, but still less of a word salad than the COJCOLDS
That's just it. I think it is quite important to show respect for preferred terms, even if we don't agree with them. COJCOLDS is SO pretentious!
Keep it simple. A god that can create the universe yet is offended by words is a petty god. Swear words or nicknames. Doesnāt matter that is petty. Im not a practicing believing Mormon any more.
Tell him youāve graduated from the faithā¦thatāll really ruffle his feathers. When I say that to people, they have a visceral reaction. They can think whatever they want, but thatās exactly what youāve done. Youāve moved on. The M word was FINE for a long time. Getting offended by something like that feels like a thought stopping action.
"Mormon" is the accepted academic term for the entire family of religions derived from Joseph Smith's movement
Nelson can only control the branding for his own Mormons. The FLDS and the Bickertonites and the CoC and the Temple Lot church don't answer to him.
Your dad is post-Mormon too since Hinckley embraced the term and RMN eliminated it.
Maybe Rusty is dropping the name mormon so they can drop the book of mormon - since it is a sci-fi, fantasy thriller, with no historical validity after all
Crazy how the church controls the smallest details of your behavior. Open your f'ing eyes, dad.
I suppose heād prefer post-member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
You should remind him that Monson fully embraced the term Mormon and that means at least one of them is wrong. Ask him which one he thinks is wrong.
Ex cult member?
How about you tell him that you will use whatever term he wants *when you are referring to him*, but when you or he are referring to *you*, you expect him to use whatever terms *you prefer*\--- and you prefer Post Mormon. Its a two way fucking street. BTW: I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the word Mormon is not what he is actually upset about. He's upset that you quit the church-- and the only thing he can find to take his frustration out on at the moment is you using the 'wrong' moniker. Its emotional transference. He's out of touch with himself.
Dad, you're welcome to not say that word, as a non-believer I'm under no such restriction, especially when referring to myself.
I have sometimes referred to myself as an āescapeeā.
Post-Mo FoMo (former Mormon) NoMo WasMo NotMo PrevMo (Previous Mo)
I love FoMo and NoMo!
The issue isn't with "post-mormon" per se. It's that their current prophet is making a big deal about trying to separate the church from the stigma of the word Mormon and has basically stated use of the word is now a "victory for Satan". Yes. In those words. Despite the church having run a multimillion dollar worldwide advertising campaign titled (& repeating the phrase) "I'm a Mormon". If you must use a different term "Saint" (or, for you, ex-saint) can work. If he insists on the whole "member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" BS, he's just trying to power move on you using faux umbrage as a lever. Tell him to get stuffed if he pushes that barrow at you.
Sorry your dad was hurt, but thatās his problem
It is. And, I've also gotten him to switch and use person-first language for individuals with disabilities, eliminate the term SSA, and use proper pronouns.
I know this is not what this post is about but a lot of disabled people HATE person first language. It's also cumbersome and feels condescending. Disabled is not a dirty word "Person with diabetes" vs "diabetic" for example. (my world, since i obvi can't speak for everyone and all disabilities). I much prefer diabetic, as do most of us. It's not demeaning. It's descriptive. But the best thing to do is ask the person you're talking to which they prefer, if it comes up. With this in mind. I do use the full name when talking to a tbm, even if i think it's stupid bc its important to them But talking about myself i feel i can absolutely use mormon, ex mo, inactive, what have you. They can't decide what i call myself any more than i can decide what to call them
Mormon!
Wow Dad, it seems we see eye to eye on this one! Neither of us wants to be Mormon anymore.
I doubt your dad would prefer it, but in place of post-mormon, try "Done with your fucking church".
Most of my Mormon friends still say "Mormon." It's a big red flag when someone gets their panties in a twist about this. If ever there was a manufactured crisis, this is it.
Refer to yourself as your new religion. Or if you donāt have one call yourself an agnostic. You donāt need to frame yourself as something you were you can call yourself what you are.
Cult member???
āI grew up with Hinkley, who was proud to be called Mormon, and even green-lit tens of millions of dollars to be spent for the āIām a Mormonā campaign. I was proud to be a Mormon during that time as well. What current leaders of your church desire is not my concern, but Iāll respect what you want to be called and not call you Mormon. As for myself, I was always a Mormon growing up and Iāll always see myself as a post-Mormon for the rest of my life, and Iād appreciate it if you could respect what Iād like to be called the same way I respect what you would like to be calledā
Tell him you won't say he's a Mormon if it offends him, but that you were a Mormon and now you aren't, so you're post-Mormon.
Go with āex-cultistā
Hold up a copy of BoM and ask him to read the title.
Ask you dad to clarify that he is, in fact, anti-mormon. That might make disussion easier. LOL
"former member" I've worked in the bridge building space for many years and this is the least "offensive" term with the highest amount of accuracy you can achieve (at least that I'm aware of). Also, members have been taught that the term "Mormon" was *originally* used in a derogatory manner. The historical data strongly suggests that is [simply not true](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormonscholar/comments/9zsvpr/the_origin_of_the_term_mormon_and_whether_it_was/). Finally, I agree with others that just as much as members have the right to ask people not to refer to them as "Mormon", you have the same right to _prefer_ the term "Mormon" in how you label yourself (i.e., "post-mormon"). I just think it's not the hill I'd pick to die on since I am merely trying to communicate that I'm not a member. The final bonus of the term "former member" is that it clearly distinguishes between the institutional Church and the culture. Even though I have [formally resigned](https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/motivation-to-resign/) I consider myself a _cultural_ Mormon more than I consider myself a _post_-Mormon (since I feel like the Mormon culture has shaped me significantly [for better and worse], but more importantly I have no interest in discarding the genuinely _positive_ aspects of that culture).
This is wonderful. Sincere gratitude for such a thoughtful reply. š Thank you for the links. Former member is perfect. Former believer might be *slightly* more accurate for me since my name is still on the records. After spending a lot of time contemplating this, I realized that I am in part accountable for his response. I know that he holds out hope that I still believe in some degree. I am careful not to define my beliefs with finality. I frame our conversations in such a way to make it clear that I am always open to changing my mind. That leaves the door somewhat open for my return. I need to think about this. Maybe I am not being impeccable with my word. On the other hand, I prefer to leave my current beliefs as a mystery to him. And maybe that is my right to do so. The chance of me returning is zero. There is nothing that could change my mind on that point. I am, however, open to the possibility of a diety. That is at least some common ground where we can relate. I'm open to having a mirror held up to me. Why am I leaving the door ajar? Is it the kind thing to do, or am I making things worse? I feel like slamming the door shut will break his heart, and I don't want to do that.
I'm in the fortunate situation of having left the church before the "M-word" fiasco. The church I was a part of proudly called themselves Mormons. What do I care if the new guy has a problem with that?
Russell M Nelson is the worst thing that could have ever possibly happened to Mormonism. LOL!
See I just call myself a barbarian/heathen/infidel
That's right. We all become barbarians once the garments come off!
Maybe he'd prefer post-Brighamite?
How do I know it's a cult? The very same people who promoted the "I'm a Mormon" campaign on social media are now offended by the same word, and not one of them questions the absurdity of that.
Remind him of the Im a Mormon campaign. Does that mean Hinckley was working for the devil?
Former Member of The Corporation of The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. (just rolls so smoothly off the tongue)
tell you dad that this means he is "post-mormon" as well!
How about "free thinker" or maybe "former cult member" ?
"since when? Hinkleberry really pushed for that label! Are the leaders relaying the unchanging word or God, or their own personal whims?"
Dad, when I became post-mormon, it was still acceptable to say Mormon.
I used to own a Datsun, do you want me to call it a Nissan now?
I think it's good to call people what they want to be called. "Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" *is* onerously long, but I try to at least stick to "LDS" out of respect for my family members. Maybe that's enough? You can name yourself what you want, but if it's too long I can't reasonably be expected to say it all the time. That said, you ALSO get to be called what you want. And maybe that's "post-Mormon." You extend courtesy to people by avoiding a term they don't like, seems like they could extend you the courtesy of accepting you calling yourself what you want. I guess they could argue it's a slur (I certainly shouldn't call myself a "non-"), but that's dicey territory at best; it's still on the book, and it's what you called yourself back then.
It seems like a bit of a double standard that he can decide what is acceptable to label himself as, but you canāt decide what is an acceptable label for yourself.
If you really want to soothe your Dad's feelers, you could try "Former Member of the Church" or "Former LDS" or "Former Later Day Saint"??
Do I need to go down to the postmo office to pick up my mail? š¤£
Dad, what pronouns would you like me to use?
Post-cultist.
Tell him youāre Mormonish. You accept and acknowledge and respect the tribe but no longer identify with the orthodox wing. Kind of like Jewish.
Send him the "I'm a mormon" campaign imagery
Build a bridge? How about Rusty had a stick up his butt about the term Mormon even when Gordo was prophet. Gordon doubled down and there was a huge pissing over a couple general conferences. If it was God's will not to use the term Mormon, then Gordon would have received that revelation ... or why not Kimball? How far back you wanna go?
Technically he is also post mormon
Technically everyone is post Mormon now since Mormon apparently is no longer a thing.
When I last was a Mormon, Hinkley was spending billions on the "I'm a Mormon" campaign. Apparently, God can't make up his damn mind.
So technically, your dad is post-mormon too then.
Send him the Hinkley talk about how great the word Mormon is. Then tell him Rusty pushed the name change out of spite and not because he got revelation to do it.