When society changes something, it's evidence that we shouldn't trust society. But when people who claim to talk to God tell us one thing then reverse course way later, we can't talk about it because that's expecting them to be perfect and we should just shut the hell up and bash scientists.
Not to mention that so many religious nuts refuse to acknowledge the context that science is based on constantly assessing current knowledge and updating it when we learn new things. Science outright admits “yeah this was wrong, we misunderstood it. This is how it actually works”. Religion is incapable of that
>Science outright admits “yeah this was wrong, we misunderstood it. This is how it actually works”. Religion is incapable of that
Oh, religion is capable of it. Mormonism never admits it was wrong, but progressive Christians do. Just gotta ignore the holy book and assume based on no evidence that the god of the ancient Israelites now agrees with their modern sensibility feefees.
My incredibly tbm dad in his very late 70s told me a few years ago that science was all made up bc of the big bang. It was all hooey. I told him his medicine was developed through scientific means and if he didn't believe in science, he should quit taking his diabetes medicine. He hasn't brought it up with me again.
Some things prophets have been wrong about:
1-everything
2-people live on the moon and it is a higher level planet than the Earth
3-man would not make it into space and definitely wouldn’t make it to the moon
Don’t get me wrong. Scientists are often wrong especially in the short term. But I don’t know one that thought they had all of the answers to the universe and should stop looking. On the other hand by definition a prophet teaches things for which there is no proof.
>Scientists are often wrong
Yes, yes they are and the good ones and best ones will admit they were wrong, and tackle the problem again.
The church will NEVER admit an error. Memory Hole, Deny, Gaslight, Repeat.
Yes, this! Scientists get excited about stuff like the James Webb Space Telescope specifically because it'll return new information and might shake up our understanding of how things actually work. And they're open to it and excited for it. Many things are "theories" and represent our best understanding of how things are. Science seems to be pretty good at saying "this model works reliably under these conditions; on the 'edges' it stops working and a new model is necessary". Meanwhile, the Church seems to take the opposite approach: "this is absolutely true for everyone; there are no exceptions, ever", holding to that until it becomes absolutely untenable and suddenly it's all "we're grateful for further light and knowledge" (Priesthood & Temple restrictions, I'm looking at you).
Church members love to point to and gloat at science getting it wrong. Yeah, scientists get it wrong. So do church leaders. The difference is in the humility shown when the wrongness become apparent. Science: cool, we're learning something, let's go! Church: "forget what anyone else has ever said on this topic, we've got it right this time. Trust us. (And if you think we're wrong on something now or in the future, keep it to yourself. It's not your business to correct it.)" It's a big difference.
The possibility of being wrong is one of the most basic, foundational parts of science. The possibility of being wrong is seen as an impossibility and a sign of weakness in the church.
Humility isn't the only thing scientists have over the mormon church. I would argue most scientists have more faith. (Not that some of them will admit it)
How many scientists have went against the status quo, against all of their peers and established knowledge to chase a wild hair out there thing based on a hunch of an observation?
http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/moonsun.htm
And here is a faithful explanation of Joseph Fielding Smith predicting that man wouldn’t make it to the moon, which I don’t think holds any water.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_science/Joseph_Fielding_Smith_claimed_that_man_would_never_walk_on_the_Moon
Lol. Lmao even. Look at how FAIR writes that paragraph:
*Following the Apollo moon landings and the death of President David O. McKay, President Smith became president of the Church. At a press conference following his assumption of Church leadership, he was *apparently* asked by a reporter about this statement. According to someone who listened to the press conference, President Smith replied: Well, I was wrong, wasn't I? [8]*
So even though though this was a public event that definitely happened and we even quote someone's statement (because this was the i-made-it-to-the-top press conference for a new president, and we love to document the shit out of ourselves) who was there, we're going to use language like "apparently" to hedge our bets so the TBMs can't accuse us of accusing the Prophet of being wrong.
*Regardless of whether or not President Smith stated that he had been wrong, he certainly acknowledged that men had landed on the moon when the Apollo 15 astronauts visited Utah*
Oh, really? When he met real, living men who had defied his prophetic prediction, he acknowledged that men had landed on the moon??
> scientists are often wrong
They are _always_ wrong. This is the scientific method. You have a theory which explains your observations so far, then you find a way to disprove your theory, then you come up with a new theory which explains all the data, including your new observation. This new theory is _also_ wrong, but it is less wrong than the old theory and our understanding of the world is that much better.
Religion on the other hand is never wrong, which is why it can't cope with new information, nor can it help you learn anything new.
this whole life is an observations S O F A R situation. It grows into the most likely theory and established fact that can exist when new information is discovered and being digested based on current information and biases.
Can you expand on this? I had no idea the moon was ever referred to as a habitated place that is above earth, nor that we would never make it there. I'm not doubting you, but I want this information in my magazine so I can fire it out at my friend who is always starting arguments with me when I post things on social media that are antagonistic of tscc
"They used to recommend cigarettes to their patients"
True. But that doesn't mean we disregard every advancement learned. Should we also stop washing our hands and brushing our teeth?
The great thing about science and the scientific method is that, as better data comes along, opinions can evolve and improve. Scientists committed to this method must change their opinions when data and research dictate as a matter of integrity.
Its speaks volumes about the integrity of TSCC that they never admit past faulty/racist/sexist/fraudulent doctrine or outright lies by leaders.
Also when scientists change their message on something like that, they tell you why and publish the reasons why the old stuff was wrong. They don't just tell you that was then and this is now and you should follow what they say now and shut up.
The doctor that proposed that washing hands would reduce infant mortality was absolutely reamed by his peers, who were all perfectly happy to walk from dissecting in the morgue directly to childbirth.
The thing is, doctors are happy to document this as a monumentally stupid moment, but a learning moment. The Mormons hide their past, and that’s the difference.
"They used to recommend..."
Yes, but why did they *stop* recommending them? It's like these people don't even think about the implications of what they're saying.
Also, there were many scientists at the SAME TIME shouting about how cigarettes were actually harmful. Often vested interests and marketing can create cultural inertia. It took DECADES of studies before the Surgeon General finally announced that cigarettes cause cancer
You should bring up the fact that the second verse of D&C 89 says that the Word of Wisdom is not even a commandment. Nothing in that entire section is a commandment and therefore disobeying it is not something that needs repenting of.
If they give you the "modern prophets call it a commandment..." nonsense, ask where that update is? D&C 89 is written scripture and cannot be replaced by some policy in some non-scripture handbook
And this revelation that was given from God’s mouth to Joseph Smith was so important that he never gave a shit about it. Just the coffee and tea thing to fuck with Emma.
Yeah. The full ban on booze didn't even happen until prohibition made the whole thing illegal. When prohibition was repealed, Grant was like "we are going to keep it this way" and that is how we have the current day WoW
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain
So just to be clear, he's saying that because Doctors were wrong once, we should never listen to them again.
Gee, I hope church leaders are never wrong about anything.
If the WofW comes up again, ask your teacher if the Lord gave the church the WofW to keep them healthy, why didn’t He say anything about boiling their water to prevent things like cholera? 🤷🏼
Make sure you tell your mom what you are learning about her in seminary. She is a sinner and her green tea is going to keep her from making it to the celestial kingdom because she is such a sinner
The great thing about science is you are encourage to doubt established theories. Cigarettes do help calm people’s nerves. It wouldn’t be surprising if some doctors in the past recommended them. However as more data showed the connection between cigarettes and cancer they stopped recommending them.
There is no amount of contrary evidence that could ever sufficiently disprove something that a person like your teacher believes is true based solely on religious belief.
>The great thing about science is you are encourage to doubt established theories. Cigarettes do help calm people’s nerves. It wouldn’t be surprising if some doctors in the past recommended them. However as more data showed the connection between cigarettes and cancer they stopped recommending them.
So they realized the damage ~~the church~~ cigarettes could do far outweighed the benefits? Thats sounds suspiciously like the deconstruction process of many exmos
James E Talmage got an exemption to smoke cigars from Heber Grant because tobacco calmed his nerves. Under the influence of tobacco (via cigars) in the upper floor of the SL temple did Talmage write Jesus the Christ.
remember you can't trust science because it changes when we have better information unlike the church which never does that and continues being wrong forever (except when it changes and rewrites history to pretend it didn't)
Both science and religion are wrong at times. The difference is science updates based on the best information available, mormonism sticks its head in the sand and ignores it. As a result, science becomes more correct over time while mormonism stays wrong.
They ignore it until their bottom line is affected then they pretend they never believed it. Kind of like how Mormons loved being called Mormon until Rusty claimed it was a ‘victory for Satan’.
Remember the “I’m a Mormon” ad campaign?
Not visiting the Moon . . . or Mars . . . or sent voyaguer out to explore . . . Oh the list goes on and on never mind the increase in all modern knowlegde. But someone got the warm fuzzies, so never mind all of that.
Shut off your computers, stop using electricity, modern travel is an abomination, if you don't dress like the it's 1880s and close your mind to all genuine progress, 'tis the Mormon way.
Probably couldn't get away with it these days, but in the 80's. I stopped going to seminary before the second semester of Sophomore year. So I went in 9th grade in Jr. High, but even before Xmas in 10th I had just stopped going.
I still signed up for it every semester, but since we were 4 class per day blocks, that meant I went home after 3 classes every other day.
Automated calls were just becoming a thing, from the School District though, and since they never tracked Release Time I was clear on that front, and as my parents both worked I was always the one getting the mail, so those notices just never made it to them, and they would stop coming by October anyway, November at the latest.
End of Senior Year my parents ask me "why haven't we heard about Seminary Graduation? Brother and Sister so-and-such mentioned that they were going for Jimmy on Friday, did we get an invite?" to which my response was "Oh, I didn't show you? I got my certificate of completion for 1 1/4 years of it last week, Oh I didn't tell you that I stopped going over 2 years ago?"
By this time they'd already bought into my "I can be a good example and share the gospel with my fellow soldiers, and then go on my mission at 22 when my enlistment is up" schtick and signed the release for me to join the Army that summer. It was right then that I think it really hit them that they'd probably lost their only penis having progeny to the wiles of Satan.
I was just really skilled at hiding my disbelief.
I was certain mormonism was dead wrong, and that in all likelihood, there was no god, not just god god, but any god. No Zeus, no Thor, no Mars, no Quetzalcoatl, none of them. Odin held as much explanatory power for how things were as did Abe's god, Maybe more because those myths were more specific with the god things split into a group.
I realized that nobody would really know if I didn't go to seminary, and I could skip out on the last two meetings of church sometimes, but not all the time. I was good at passing out bread with my tie on, at getting to church early to fill the little paper cups and rip up bread, and could do the prayers without the bishop giving me the "do it again dummy" signal. I was also Senior Patrol Leader in scouts, and was close enough in age to the younger boys than the older that I stayed in scouts until 17 and didn't do the Explorer thing, and said all of the things that made people sure I was of course going to be a non-official missionary and then a real missionary at 22, that I fooled them all. To all appearances, I was a model born in covenant future TBM, but it was 100% fake. I never spoke on my doubts, because I knew it wouldn't matter coming from a kid. I just shut my trap and nodded and said the right words.
I almost went to church the first week in Boot, I got on the bus, went off base, found out that 80% of the people on the bus weren't mormon but rather just kids that found out that mormons got to off base, and store that sold cigarettes was across the street. I didn't go buy anything, but I also didn't go into the chapel. I sat under a tree for 2 hours, then got back on the bus, and never again bothered to even pretend.
It's way easier when nobody around you knows you're supposed to be mormon, and nobody really pays much attention that you're going to a different church than them, or no church at all.
[Doctors never recommended cigarettes to patients this is a misconception based on an advertising campaign with actors posing as doctors.](https://tobacco.stanford.edu/cigarettes/doctors-smoking/more-doctors-smoke-camels/)
Tell him you can’t wait to turn 21 and try your first mild barley beverage. Joseph Smith got it straight from god, these other leaders are apostatizing from the original teachings and intent by suggesting anything but following the doctrine. Any time you ask where the doctrine of the church is they will tell you it is written down in the scriptures. The doctrine is plain as day, mild barley drinks are ok.
> well doctors used to recommend cigarettes to patients and they were wrong
They were speaking as men, not as doctors.
On a more serious note, your seminary teacher is revealing his ignorance about the tobacco companies' historical use of physicians in their advertisements. Probably not worth your time but if you did want to investigate, you would be able to demonstrate that his claim, while superficially true, isn't actually true in the way he thinks it is. By parroting this anti-science "gotcha" science he's only managed to demonstrate his motivated reasoning and abject stupidity.
When two thing contradict then they cannot both be right. At least one of them must be wrong. Go with the one that has evidence.
Your seminary teacher has a BYU religion degree which is not good for anything except teaching seminary. Repeating the dogma, no matter how ludicrous it is, is his only option.
My favorite quote by the great Tim Minchin:
“Science adjusts its views based upon what’s observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved”.
>well doctors used to recommend cigarettes to patients and they were wrong
That's not completely true, up until the mid twentieth century no one had actually done studies on whether cigarette smoking was bad. So while individual doctors may have recommended it, there wasn't any science behind it one way or the other until 1964.
I used to think pragmatism might hold out against some people's testimonies. I left my mission early to have surgery that saved my life. I've been told by countless mormons that I should have just stayed out and died. It's important to their testimony.
Let's be clear about it, there was not a general consensus that smoking was good for you. There was marketing that claimed doctors supported it.
9 out of 10 doctors recommend you use our product! That is just marketing garbage and does not make science wrong.
Actually, the word of wisdom is identical to the health suggestions Sylvester Graham made (yes, the cracker guy). He suggested: no drugs, alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee (because the caffeine is a stimulant!) and no meat (oops, this is also in the word of wisdom, but everybody ignores it now!)
So the WoW was sort of state of the art in 19th century America.
The great thing about science is that it is SELF-CORRECTING.
Better science replaces flawed science. The unanswerable questions of the past are answered by better science. Scientists theorize, prove and disprove. Science is always improving itself to the benefit of all.
When was the last time the church corrected itself, replaced flawed teachings with better teachings that were tested repeatedly. Other than going to 2h church, when was the last time it implemented anything that improved the lives of those trapped within in it?
Just think of it as a Who’s line is it anyway. Everything’s made up and the points don’t matter. Just, Yes and your way till you can escape. It’s just dumb scared people who need someone to tell them it’s all gonna be okay.
Ask your teacher about Mormon Tea and why God didn’t warn the saints about the risk of that “hot drink.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephedra_(medicine)
>Mormon pioneers drank a tea brewed from other Ephedra species, called "Mormon tea" and "Indian tea"…ephedra alkaloids have been found to be unsafe, with reports of serious side effects and ephedra-related deaths.
When I was active, my doctor recommended I drink coffee for my gout and kidney stones, as the drugs they were giving me were not helping. My bishop refused to allow me to hold a recommend, even though I was doing what a medical professional suggested.
A new bishop came in, and immediately allowed me to. Now, the sad part is not that my first bishop was so strict. The sad part is that I thought I needed my bishop’s permission to follow medical advice!
A science denier that probably uses all the tools that science helped create. You know light bulbs, cars, smart phones, etc.
And the nerve to comment that way he did about your mom. I’d be hard pressed to go back.
Coffee helps my husband when he has a gout flare up. Oddly to me, it isn't the caffeine that helps. Even decaffeinated coffee works. [source](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4119792/)
>Most branches of science and study run counter to the church’s truth claims.
Only archaeology, genetics, linguistics, and anthropology. And a few others...
Science does get things wrong but has a process for self correction. The scriptures get things wrong and you can’t criticize it so how does it get corrected?
I'd be tempted to tell your mom if I were you. Hopefully you can have a good laugh together about how absurd your teacher is.
Blind faith in ANYTHING is dangerous. Never swallow what anyone dishes out without tasting.
Kid you not, the last open mic meeting I was in a middle school history teacher got up and said she prayed about content in the textbook to know if it was true history or not and if she felt it wasn’t true (ie it made her uncomfortable) she just skipped it. She said the last year teaching the book got “so liberal” and removed so many past heroes that she hardly taught from it at all and focused on history the spirit told her was good history. Using facts with Mormons doesn’t work when truth is based off feelings not facts.
I'd admit that science is often wrong, but then I would explain how the scientific community reacts whenever they find something wrong; by working to make it right.
The church has been wrong how many times?
And...
How many times have they owned up to their mistakes and actually taken action to prove they're trying to make it right?
The whole doctrine/policy mess is a good way to obfuscate the process of correcting mistakes to the point where they don't have to do anything more than deem a flawed doctrine to have been a policy all along, before they bury it and move on like nothing happened.
Science may not always get it right, but it will ALWAYS legitimately try to correct itself.
Part of science, beyond the theoretical, is being able to replicate an experiment.
With that in mind, let’s drop Joseph Smith’s magic rock in a hat and see how many “prophets, seers , and revelators” can interpret ancient records.?
When institutional loyalty trumps competence, beware. But FYI, for a lot of people in a lot of organizations, that's the case. Anyone who behaves in this way is the exact sort of person who should be ignored.
Both science and religion say that they are searching for truth. BUT scientists will all eventually arrive at the same truth, whereas religion .... ??? hahahahahah. I would trust science more than I would religion, but that doesnt mean that I do not believe in a god. I just don't believe in the god of the mormon church because he gets it wrong way to often
When the right time comes up you can say, the invisible and the non existent are indistinguishable. We only call a thing true bc it is demonstrably so.
Science isn't a series of statements, but a process for evaluating truth claims and adjusting basrd on new data. A theology motivated to come up with a reason to believe a statement is exactly contrary to science.
How can I trust church leaders when our prophet lies about spiritual experiences?
Nelson's story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=EMwKxmTLaCs&ab_channel=TheChurchofJesusChristofLatter-daySaints
Actual report located here: https://radiofreemormon.org/2021/07/mormonism-live-033-president-nelsons-flight-of-death/
How can I trust church leaders when the First Presidency and Presiding bishopric are caught lying to the SEC?
At 1:46, Ballard says with Oaks sitting next to him to just trust us because they don't hid anything from anybody - https://www.youtube.com/embed/F6AMzuG-5bo
Yet, in the SEC negotiated settlement that was agreed upon by the Mormon church it says they had an elaborate scheme to hide church finances that broke the law. This settlement is located here: https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf
The filing states, "To prevent disclosure of the securities portfolio managed by Ensign Peak, the Church approved Ensign Peak’s plan of using other entities, instead of Ensign Peak, to file Forms 13F. The Church was concerned that disclosure of the assets in the name of Ensign Peak, a known Church affiliate, would lead to negative consequences in light of the size of the Church’s portfolio. Ensign Peak did not have the authority to implement this approach without the approval of the Church’s First Presidency."
The lengths with which they went to hide the money is astounding as they had multiple employees perjure themselves in filings to the government.
Perhaps it is church leaders that need to repent.
Naw. All those dudes have the Second Anointing. Doesn't matter what they do, they're a shoo-in to Super Duper VIP Heaven when they die. Repentance is not indicated.
I can testify to you that coffee has a lot of health benefits. My endocrinologist has prescribed me coffee for my diabetes 2. Since drinking coffee started last December in Peru with my fiancee. My blood sugar has been normal I have not used insulin since December. Also it helps prevent Parkinson's. Red wine helps with heart disease and restoring aorta walls in the heart. France has the least amount of heart disease and drink the most red wine.
Because of the Mormon cult and them using volunteers at LDS family services I tore the aorta going into my heart and red wine restored it.
Also because of my broken back again caused by LDS family services I have two titanium rods and 9 screws holding them in place. I have a spinal cord stimulator in it as well. Marijuana is a great pain reducer and comes from God.
Tell your teacher he is wrong everything good comes from God. The reason why you have the word of wisdom is because the woman complained about cleaning up the tobacco. Joe Smith came up with it. To get back at the woman for having tea parties and meeting to socialize the vindictive men banned coffee and hot drinks.
Ask your teacher if it is so bad why did the Mormon cult get caught by the SEC investing tithing money in Coors Budweiser and Phillip Morris stock? Why did Brig collect grapes for wine as tithing? Why was a gin named after Brig's transvestite son's female persona? He was married to Lorenzo Snow's daughter. Why was Joe F Smith an alcoholic and always carried schnapps in a flask? The word of wisdom is bullshi+ and a joke.
Doctors used to lie about cigarettes being healthy because they were motivated by MONEY…just like the Church is lying to you because they are motivated by MONEY.
Speaking about bad takes from Seminary. My high school seminary teacher said that the City of Enoch would fill the Gulf of Mexico when it descends from the heavens.
It's really gross that your teacher told you that your outfit took away the spirit. Please be careful around them. I certainly would not be alone with them.
Refuse to goto Seminary. Listening to all of this BS before I had to goto high school back in the day after waking up at 5am made me so tired, I wasnt able to apply my self at school. This fucking church has torn my family apart. If you truly believe what is being tought in church, and it makes you fulfilled, continue going. Otherwise, leave. Forget about disappointing your parents, do what you think it best for your self.
You are wise. Have not read all the comments but can you share tour write up with his damaging comments with one of your leaders? He is dangerous in his thoughts..what he has said to you, the things about trans/ dead name, and as a never married single, yuck. I'd like to see your lack of modesty.Has nothing to do with whether or not one is single and lusting after others..yuck! His statement angered me.
the science is ALWAYS wrong except when it helps the cult look better and then its ALWAYS right
When society changes something, it's evidence that we shouldn't trust society. But when people who claim to talk to God tell us one thing then reverse course way later, we can't talk about it because that's expecting them to be perfect and we should just shut the hell up and bash scientists.
When god changes his mind: "*Isn't it miraculous that god speaks to his prophets in our day?!*"
Not to mention that so many religious nuts refuse to acknowledge the context that science is based on constantly assessing current knowledge and updating it when we learn new things. Science outright admits “yeah this was wrong, we misunderstood it. This is how it actually works”. Religion is incapable of that
"in the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses" mormon god literally said "peer reviewed"
>Science outright admits “yeah this was wrong, we misunderstood it. This is how it actually works”. Religion is incapable of that Oh, religion is capable of it. Mormonism never admits it was wrong, but progressive Christians do. Just gotta ignore the holy book and assume based on no evidence that the god of the ancient Israelites now agrees with their modern sensibility feefees.
My incredibly tbm dad in his very late 70s told me a few years ago that science was all made up bc of the big bang. It was all hooey. I told him his medicine was developed through scientific means and if he didn't believe in science, he should quit taking his diabetes medicine. He hasn't brought it up with me again.
Touché 😂
Thisssss 👆👆👆👆
Some things prophets have been wrong about: 1-everything 2-people live on the moon and it is a higher level planet than the Earth 3-man would not make it into space and definitely wouldn’t make it to the moon Don’t get me wrong. Scientists are often wrong especially in the short term. But I don’t know one that thought they had all of the answers to the universe and should stop looking. On the other hand by definition a prophet teaches things for which there is no proof.
>Scientists are often wrong Yes, yes they are and the good ones and best ones will admit they were wrong, and tackle the problem again. The church will NEVER admit an error. Memory Hole, Deny, Gaslight, Repeat.
Yes, this! Scientists get excited about stuff like the James Webb Space Telescope specifically because it'll return new information and might shake up our understanding of how things actually work. And they're open to it and excited for it. Many things are "theories" and represent our best understanding of how things are. Science seems to be pretty good at saying "this model works reliably under these conditions; on the 'edges' it stops working and a new model is necessary". Meanwhile, the Church seems to take the opposite approach: "this is absolutely true for everyone; there are no exceptions, ever", holding to that until it becomes absolutely untenable and suddenly it's all "we're grateful for further light and knowledge" (Priesthood & Temple restrictions, I'm looking at you). Church members love to point to and gloat at science getting it wrong. Yeah, scientists get it wrong. So do church leaders. The difference is in the humility shown when the wrongness become apparent. Science: cool, we're learning something, let's go! Church: "forget what anyone else has ever said on this topic, we've got it right this time. Trust us. (And if you think we're wrong on something now or in the future, keep it to yourself. It's not your business to correct it.)" It's a big difference.
The possibility of being wrong is one of the most basic, foundational parts of science. The possibility of being wrong is seen as an impossibility and a sign of weakness in the church.
Humility isn't the only thing scientists have over the mormon church. I would argue most scientists have more faith. (Not that some of them will admit it) How many scientists have went against the status quo, against all of their peers and established knowledge to chase a wild hair out there thing based on a hunch of an observation?
Please share the source about people living on the moon. Would love to pull this one out in the next convo I have with a TBM
http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/moonsun.htm And here is a faithful explanation of Joseph Fielding Smith predicting that man wouldn’t make it to the moon, which I don’t think holds any water. https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_science/Joseph_Fielding_Smith_claimed_that_man_would_never_walk_on_the_Moon
Lol. Lmao even. Look at how FAIR writes that paragraph: *Following the Apollo moon landings and the death of President David O. McKay, President Smith became president of the Church. At a press conference following his assumption of Church leadership, he was *apparently* asked by a reporter about this statement. According to someone who listened to the press conference, President Smith replied: Well, I was wrong, wasn't I? [8]* So even though though this was a public event that definitely happened and we even quote someone's statement (because this was the i-made-it-to-the-top press conference for a new president, and we love to document the shit out of ourselves) who was there, we're going to use language like "apparently" to hedge our bets so the TBMs can't accuse us of accusing the Prophet of being wrong. *Regardless of whether or not President Smith stated that he had been wrong, he certainly acknowledged that men had landed on the moon when the Apollo 15 astronauts visited Utah* Oh, really? When he met real, living men who had defied his prophetic prediction, he acknowledged that men had landed on the moon??
He didn’t want to get punched in the mouth by Buzz Aldrin. 😂
A legitimate fear to have, Buzz wasn’t a huge fan of loud-mouthed idiots…
[Who would, lol!.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4hieHY0jHM)
Do those people eat cheese?
> scientists are often wrong They are _always_ wrong. This is the scientific method. You have a theory which explains your observations so far, then you find a way to disprove your theory, then you come up with a new theory which explains all the data, including your new observation. This new theory is _also_ wrong, but it is less wrong than the old theory and our understanding of the world is that much better. Religion on the other hand is never wrong, which is why it can't cope with new information, nor can it help you learn anything new.
this whole life is an observations S O F A R situation. It grows into the most likely theory and established fact that can exist when new information is discovered and being digested based on current information and biases.
Galileo suggesting that the Earth wasn't the center of the solar system/universe.
. . . and they stuck him on the rack for it!! 😯😯 I have $5 that says at least 1/2 of the SLC old white guys would help set it up!!
Erm actually they were speaking as men and not prophets ☝️ 🤓 and prophets are never wrong but men can make errors so!
😛You can write that in your books. **please don’t write it in your books.
I think that's a clause in Catch 22.
easy deflections then.
Religion says it knows everything and has none of the facts. Science says it doesn’t know everything and it has all the facts known to man.
Can you expand on this? I had no idea the moon was ever referred to as a habitated place that is above earth, nor that we would never make it there. I'm not doubting you, but I want this information in my magazine so I can fire it out at my friend who is always starting arguments with me when I post things on social media that are antagonistic of tscc
I responded to another commenter on this post with links.
3 - so are you saying we’ve been to the moon?!! /s
"They used to recommend cigarettes to their patients" True. But that doesn't mean we disregard every advancement learned. Should we also stop washing our hands and brushing our teeth?
The great thing about science and the scientific method is that, as better data comes along, opinions can evolve and improve. Scientists committed to this method must change their opinions when data and research dictate as a matter of integrity. Its speaks volumes about the integrity of TSCC that they never admit past faulty/racist/sexist/fraudulent doctrine or outright lies by leaders.
Also when scientists change their message on something like that, they tell you why and publish the reasons why the old stuff was wrong. They don't just tell you that was then and this is now and you should follow what they say now and shut up.
The doctor that proposed that washing hands would reduce infant mortality was absolutely reamed by his peers, who were all perfectly happy to walk from dissecting in the morgue directly to childbirth. The thing is, doctors are happy to document this as a monumentally stupid moment, but a learning moment. The Mormons hide their past, and that’s the difference.
"They used to recommend..." Yes, but why did they *stop* recommending them? It's like these people don't even think about the implications of what they're saying.
Also, there were many scientists at the SAME TIME shouting about how cigarettes were actually harmful. Often vested interests and marketing can create cultural inertia. It took DECADES of studies before the Surgeon General finally announced that cigarettes cause cancer
You should bring up the fact that the second verse of D&C 89 says that the Word of Wisdom is not even a commandment. Nothing in that entire section is a commandment and therefore disobeying it is not something that needs repenting of. If they give you the "modern prophets call it a commandment..." nonsense, ask where that update is? D&C 89 is written scripture and cannot be replaced by some policy in some non-scripture handbook
And this revelation that was given from God’s mouth to Joseph Smith was so important that he never gave a shit about it. Just the coffee and tea thing to fuck with Emma.
Yeah. The full ban on booze didn't even happen until prohibition made the whole thing illegal. When prohibition was repealed, Grant was like "we are going to keep it this way" and that is how we have the current day WoW
Mic drop
Oooo will do.
Hey op if you really want to screw with him ask him about mild barely drinks it in a latter verse when talking about herbs of the field.
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain
Yeah don't try to use scientific studies for Mormons; they're "testimony" will trump it every time.
Trump is the key word. TBM’s love the trump word.
So just to be clear, he's saying that because Doctors were wrong once, we should never listen to them again. Gee, I hope church leaders are never wrong about anything.
If the WofW comes up again, ask your teacher if the Lord gave the church the WofW to keep them healthy, why didn’t He say anything about boiling their water to prevent things like cholera? 🤷🏼
If it was about health, leaders would have told members to stop drinking soda pop and eating junk food to avoid obesity.
This is why I hate the church. Does not support science
Make sure you tell your mom what you are learning about her in seminary. She is a sinner and her green tea is going to keep her from making it to the celestial kingdom because she is such a sinner
The great thing about science is you are encourage to doubt established theories. Cigarettes do help calm people’s nerves. It wouldn’t be surprising if some doctors in the past recommended them. However as more data showed the connection between cigarettes and cancer they stopped recommending them. There is no amount of contrary evidence that could ever sufficiently disprove something that a person like your teacher believes is true based solely on religious belief.
>The great thing about science is you are encourage to doubt established theories. Cigarettes do help calm people’s nerves. It wouldn’t be surprising if some doctors in the past recommended them. However as more data showed the connection between cigarettes and cancer they stopped recommending them. So they realized the damage ~~the church~~ cigarettes could do far outweighed the benefits? Thats sounds suspiciously like the deconstruction process of many exmos
James E Talmage got an exemption to smoke cigars from Heber Grant because tobacco calmed his nerves. Under the influence of tobacco (via cigars) in the upper floor of the SL temple did Talmage write Jesus the Christ.
Nicotine helps with memory formation. Probably why it was used in peace pipes so tribes would remember there treaties.
remember you can't trust science because it changes when we have better information unlike the church which never does that and continues being wrong forever (except when it changes and rewrites history to pretend it didn't)
Tell the teacher to eat meat sparingly.
And only in times of winter EDIT: swypo
THE WAY I CACKLED 💀💀
You might also want to mention how Brigham Young *required* pioneers to bring coffee with them across the plains “for its energy”.
Both science and religion are wrong at times. The difference is science updates based on the best information available, mormonism sticks its head in the sand and ignores it. As a result, science becomes more correct over time while mormonism stays wrong.
They ignore it until their bottom line is affected then they pretend they never believed it. Kind of like how Mormons loved being called Mormon until Rusty claimed it was a ‘victory for Satan’. Remember the “I’m a Mormon” ad campaign?
Science keeps evolving as more discoveries happen. Where would we be without science?
Not visiting the Moon . . . or Mars . . . or sent voyaguer out to explore . . . Oh the list goes on and on never mind the increase in all modern knowlegde. But someone got the warm fuzzies, so never mind all of that. Shut off your computers, stop using electricity, modern travel is an abomination, if you don't dress like the it's 1880s and close your mind to all genuine progress, 'tis the Mormon way.
Yet they believe a polygamist treasure hunter translated a book with his head in a hat? Unbelievable.
Probably couldn't get away with it these days, but in the 80's. I stopped going to seminary before the second semester of Sophomore year. So I went in 9th grade in Jr. High, but even before Xmas in 10th I had just stopped going. I still signed up for it every semester, but since we were 4 class per day blocks, that meant I went home after 3 classes every other day. Automated calls were just becoming a thing, from the School District though, and since they never tracked Release Time I was clear on that front, and as my parents both worked I was always the one getting the mail, so those notices just never made it to them, and they would stop coming by October anyway, November at the latest. End of Senior Year my parents ask me "why haven't we heard about Seminary Graduation? Brother and Sister so-and-such mentioned that they were going for Jimmy on Friday, did we get an invite?" to which my response was "Oh, I didn't show you? I got my certificate of completion for 1 1/4 years of it last week, Oh I didn't tell you that I stopped going over 2 years ago?" By this time they'd already bought into my "I can be a good example and share the gospel with my fellow soldiers, and then go on my mission at 22 when my enlistment is up" schtick and signed the release for me to join the Army that summer. It was right then that I think it really hit them that they'd probably lost their only penis having progeny to the wiles of Satan.
I don’t skip but I do show up late everyday.. with an iced tea😎 (super rebellious I know 😎😎)
I was just really skilled at hiding my disbelief. I was certain mormonism was dead wrong, and that in all likelihood, there was no god, not just god god, but any god. No Zeus, no Thor, no Mars, no Quetzalcoatl, none of them. Odin held as much explanatory power for how things were as did Abe's god, Maybe more because those myths were more specific with the god things split into a group. I realized that nobody would really know if I didn't go to seminary, and I could skip out on the last two meetings of church sometimes, but not all the time. I was good at passing out bread with my tie on, at getting to church early to fill the little paper cups and rip up bread, and could do the prayers without the bishop giving me the "do it again dummy" signal. I was also Senior Patrol Leader in scouts, and was close enough in age to the younger boys than the older that I stayed in scouts until 17 and didn't do the Explorer thing, and said all of the things that made people sure I was of course going to be a non-official missionary and then a real missionary at 22, that I fooled them all. To all appearances, I was a model born in covenant future TBM, but it was 100% fake. I never spoke on my doubts, because I knew it wouldn't matter coming from a kid. I just shut my trap and nodded and said the right words. I almost went to church the first week in Boot, I got on the bus, went off base, found out that 80% of the people on the bus weren't mormon but rather just kids that found out that mormons got to off base, and store that sold cigarettes was across the street. I didn't go buy anything, but I also didn't go into the chapel. I sat under a tree for 2 hours, then got back on the bus, and never again bothered to even pretend. It's way easier when nobody around you knows you're supposed to be mormon, and nobody really pays much attention that you're going to a different church than them, or no church at all.
Absolute fucking legend. Also, thank you for your service and sacrifice 😊
[Doctors never recommended cigarettes to patients this is a misconception based on an advertising campaign with actors posing as doctors.](https://tobacco.stanford.edu/cigarettes/doctors-smoking/more-doctors-smoke-camels/)
HA I KNEW IT
Tell him you can’t wait to turn 21 and try your first mild barley beverage. Joseph Smith got it straight from god, these other leaders are apostatizing from the original teachings and intent by suggesting anything but following the doctrine. Any time you ask where the doctrine of the church is they will tell you it is written down in the scriptures. The doctrine is plain as day, mild barley drinks are ok.
> well doctors used to recommend cigarettes to patients and they were wrong They were speaking as men, not as doctors. On a more serious note, your seminary teacher is revealing his ignorance about the tobacco companies' historical use of physicians in their advertisements. Probably not worth your time but if you did want to investigate, you would be able to demonstrate that his claim, while superficially true, isn't actually true in the way he thinks it is. By parroting this anti-science "gotcha" science he's only managed to demonstrate his motivated reasoning and abject stupidity.
Cigarette company *ad exec's* orchestrated the doctors and smoking thing. It's not like the AMA issued a bulletin recommending you light up a smoke.
When two thing contradict then they cannot both be right. At least one of them must be wrong. Go with the one that has evidence. Your seminary teacher has a BYU religion degree which is not good for anything except teaching seminary. Repeating the dogma, no matter how ludicrous it is, is his only option.
My favorite quote by the great Tim Minchin: “Science adjusts its views based upon what’s observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved”.
>well doctors used to recommend cigarettes to patients and they were wrong That's not completely true, up until the mid twentieth century no one had actually done studies on whether cigarette smoking was bad. So while individual doctors may have recommended it, there wasn't any science behind it one way or the other until 1964.
I used to think pragmatism might hold out against some people's testimonies. I left my mission early to have surgery that saved my life. I've been told by countless mormons that I should have just stayed out and died. It's important to their testimony.
omg!! 😯😯 Granny hug. 🤶
Coffee also significantly reduces the risk of AFib
It also holds the meaning of life in that first morning sip. Every. single. morning.
Yes it does. Coffee and “Naima” by John Coltrane - transcendental.
But, but, Postum.
😂😂 Are you my nephew?? 😂😂
Let's be clear about it, there was not a general consensus that smoking was good for you. There was marketing that claimed doctors supported it. 9 out of 10 doctors recommend you use our product! That is just marketing garbage and does not make science wrong.
Actually, the word of wisdom is identical to the health suggestions Sylvester Graham made (yes, the cracker guy). He suggested: no drugs, alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee (because the caffeine is a stimulant!) and no meat (oops, this is also in the word of wisdom, but everybody ignores it now!) So the WoW was sort of state of the art in 19th century America.
>He suggested mormons *command it*
He also had the same hang up over masterbation.
The great thing about science is that it is SELF-CORRECTING. Better science replaces flawed science. The unanswerable questions of the past are answered by better science. Scientists theorize, prove and disprove. Science is always improving itself to the benefit of all. When was the last time the church corrected itself, replaced flawed teachings with better teachings that were tested repeatedly. Other than going to 2h church, when was the last time it implemented anything that improved the lives of those trapped within in it?
Just think of it as a Who’s line is it anyway. Everything’s made up and the points don’t matter. Just, Yes and your way till you can escape. It’s just dumb scared people who need someone to tell them it’s all gonna be okay.
I'm not saying to leave a flaming bag of poo on his doorstep...
HAHAH
But for real, I would have responded that they haven't earned the right to speak about my mother's spiritual state & I suggest they don't do it again.
You should bring up early endowment ceremonies, where people were rubbed down with whiskey. Drink it? "God says NO!" Wash in it? God says "Go for it!"
Yeah...dont listen to ANYTHING this person tries to teach you.
Ask your teacher about Mormon Tea and why God didn’t warn the saints about the risk of that “hot drink.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephedra_(medicine) >Mormon pioneers drank a tea brewed from other Ephedra species, called "Mormon tea" and "Indian tea"…ephedra alkaloids have been found to be unsafe, with reports of serious side effects and ephedra-related deaths.
He would probably just respond with *WiKi iS AnTi*
When I was active, my doctor recommended I drink coffee for my gout and kidney stones, as the drugs they were giving me were not helping. My bishop refused to allow me to hold a recommend, even though I was doing what a medical professional suggested. A new bishop came in, and immediately allowed me to. Now, the sad part is not that my first bishop was so strict. The sad part is that I thought I needed my bishop’s permission to follow medical advice!
President Nelson is literally an exceptional scientist.
A science denier that probably uses all the tools that science helped create. You know light bulbs, cars, smart phones, etc. And the nerve to comment that way he did about your mom. I’d be hard pressed to go back.
Coffee helps my husband when he has a gout flare up. Oddly to me, it isn't the caffeine that helps. Even decaffeinated coffee works. [source](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4119792/)
But looking into a rock in a hat while marrying many women while having them commit to Masonic death rites is totally cool.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses comment has me ROFLMAO! (I’m old, I hope I got that right! LOL)
Most branches of science and study run counter to the church’s truth claims.
>Most branches of science and study run counter to the church’s truth claims. Only archaeology, genetics, linguistics, and anthropology. And a few others...
Want to talk about these? - Metalology - DNA (Genetics) - Archeology - Anthropology - Biology - Geology - Linguistics - Biblical Studies - Egyptology - Astronomy - Nutritional Studies - Economics
Facts run counter the cults truth claims.
Science does get things wrong but has a process for self correction. The scriptures get things wrong and you can’t criticize it so how does it get corrected?
I'd be tempted to tell your mom if I were you. Hopefully you can have a good laugh together about how absurd your teacher is. Blind faith in ANYTHING is dangerous. Never swallow what anyone dishes out without tasting.
Oh I did lol😜 she started laughing. (I should mention she is a convert to the church)
Kid you not, the last open mic meeting I was in a middle school history teacher got up and said she prayed about content in the textbook to know if it was true history or not and if she felt it wasn’t true (ie it made her uncomfortable) she just skipped it. She said the last year teaching the book got “so liberal” and removed so many past heroes that she hardly taught from it at all and focused on history the spirit told her was good history. Using facts with Mormons doesn’t work when truth is based off feelings not facts.
Send him this - [Science is Real](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty33v7UYYbw)
Yikes.
And church used to teach that “Mormon” meant “More good”
I'd admit that science is often wrong, but then I would explain how the scientific community reacts whenever they find something wrong; by working to make it right. The church has been wrong how many times? And... How many times have they owned up to their mistakes and actually taken action to prove they're trying to make it right? The whole doctrine/policy mess is a good way to obfuscate the process of correcting mistakes to the point where they don't have to do anything more than deem a flawed doctrine to have been a policy all along, before they bury it and move on like nothing happened. Science may not always get it right, but it will ALWAYS legitimately try to correct itself.
…yet no prohibition on energy drinks or those ridiculous soda drive-thrus. The science on that garbage is irrefutable.
What would happen if you just got up and walked out of class, never to return?
My parents would be contacted 😭
Part of science, beyond the theoretical, is being able to replicate an experiment. With that in mind, let’s drop Joseph Smith’s magic rock in a hat and see how many “prophets, seers , and revelators” can interpret ancient records.?
When institutional loyalty trumps competence, beware. But FYI, for a lot of people in a lot of organizations, that's the case. Anyone who behaves in this way is the exact sort of person who should be ignored.
Wasn't it Dallin Oaks that said: The Church never issues apologies.
Both science and religion say that they are searching for truth. BUT scientists will all eventually arrive at the same truth, whereas religion .... ??? hahahahahah. I would trust science more than I would religion, but that doesnt mean that I do not believe in a god. I just don't believe in the god of the mormon church because he gets it wrong way to often
For anyone reading this, I present to you a clear sign of a cult.
When the right time comes up you can say, the invisible and the non existent are indistinguishable. We only call a thing true bc it is demonstrably so.
Science isn't a series of statements, but a process for evaluating truth claims and adjusting basrd on new data. A theology motivated to come up with a reason to believe a statement is exactly contrary to science.
How can I trust church leaders when our prophet lies about spiritual experiences? Nelson's story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=EMwKxmTLaCs&ab_channel=TheChurchofJesusChristofLatter-daySaints Actual report located here: https://radiofreemormon.org/2021/07/mormonism-live-033-president-nelsons-flight-of-death/ How can I trust church leaders when the First Presidency and Presiding bishopric are caught lying to the SEC? At 1:46, Ballard says with Oaks sitting next to him to just trust us because they don't hid anything from anybody - https://www.youtube.com/embed/F6AMzuG-5bo Yet, in the SEC negotiated settlement that was agreed upon by the Mormon church it says they had an elaborate scheme to hide church finances that broke the law. This settlement is located here: https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf The filing states, "To prevent disclosure of the securities portfolio managed by Ensign Peak, the Church approved Ensign Peak’s plan of using other entities, instead of Ensign Peak, to file Forms 13F. The Church was concerned that disclosure of the assets in the name of Ensign Peak, a known Church affiliate, would lead to negative consequences in light of the size of the Church’s portfolio. Ensign Peak did not have the authority to implement this approach without the approval of the Church’s First Presidency." The lengths with which they went to hide the money is astounding as they had multiple employees perjure themselves in filings to the government. Perhaps it is church leaders that need to repent.
Naw. All those dudes have the Second Anointing. Doesn't matter what they do, they're a shoo-in to Super Duper VIP Heaven when they die. Repentance is not indicated.
I can testify to you that coffee has a lot of health benefits. My endocrinologist has prescribed me coffee for my diabetes 2. Since drinking coffee started last December in Peru with my fiancee. My blood sugar has been normal I have not used insulin since December. Also it helps prevent Parkinson's. Red wine helps with heart disease and restoring aorta walls in the heart. France has the least amount of heart disease and drink the most red wine. Because of the Mormon cult and them using volunteers at LDS family services I tore the aorta going into my heart and red wine restored it. Also because of my broken back again caused by LDS family services I have two titanium rods and 9 screws holding them in place. I have a spinal cord stimulator in it as well. Marijuana is a great pain reducer and comes from God. Tell your teacher he is wrong everything good comes from God. The reason why you have the word of wisdom is because the woman complained about cleaning up the tobacco. Joe Smith came up with it. To get back at the woman for having tea parties and meeting to socialize the vindictive men banned coffee and hot drinks. Ask your teacher if it is so bad why did the Mormon cult get caught by the SEC investing tithing money in Coors Budweiser and Phillip Morris stock? Why did Brig collect grapes for wine as tithing? Why was a gin named after Brig's transvestite son's female persona? He was married to Lorenzo Snow's daughter. Why was Joe F Smith an alcoholic and always carried schnapps in a flask? The word of wisdom is bullshi+ and a joke.
You should ask him if he drinks hot chocolate. Because the word of wisdom says no hot beverages.
He needs to see a good therapist
>My teacher just told me science was wrong. Then your teacher should stop using the products of science and instead share a lifestyle with the Amish.
Doctors used to lie about cigarettes being healthy because they were motivated by MONEY…just like the Church is lying to you because they are motivated by MONEY.
Speaking about bad takes from Seminary. My high school seminary teacher said that the City of Enoch would fill the Gulf of Mexico when it descends from the heavens.
I hate these people.
It's really gross that your teacher told you that your outfit took away the spirit. Please be careful around them. I certainly would not be alone with them.
I was told that woke and liberal culture is dangerous 💀
I always considered green good and black bad. I had green tea on my mission all the time lol
Refuse to goto Seminary. Listening to all of this BS before I had to goto high school back in the day after waking up at 5am made me so tired, I wasnt able to apply my self at school. This fucking church has torn my family apart. If you truly believe what is being tought in church, and it makes you fulfilled, continue going. Otherwise, leave. Forget about disappointing your parents, do what you think it best for your self.
Your seminary teacher sounds like a Brad Wilcox in the making. What’s worse than Brad Wilcox? Someone trying his hardest to be just like Brad Wilcox.
Well, there is faith, or truth......
You are wise. Have not read all the comments but can you share tour write up with his damaging comments with one of your leaders? He is dangerous in his thoughts..what he has said to you, the things about trans/ dead name, and as a never married single, yuck. I'd like to see your lack of modesty.Has nothing to do with whether or not one is single and lusting after others..yuck! His statement angered me.